Prime Crime: Solved Murders - Thanksgiving Special: Just Add Arsenic

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Over the ages, arsenic has had many lives — beauty fad, household product, medical prescription… and weapon of choice wielded by killers everywhere from Alabama to ancient Rome. Brine your turkey, knead your dough, and listen to our Thanksgiving Special on the regime-changing, assassination-aiding King of Poisons. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Happy holidays, Parcast fans. I'm Greg Polson from Serial Killers, a Spotify original from Parcast. In honor of Thanksgiving, I'm excited to present this very special episode, Just Add Arsenic. A warning, this episode contains discussions of death and murder. Please exercise caution for listeners under 13. It's November. The trees outside are a collage of red, orange, and yellow. A fire fights away the cold each time the door opens and another guest arrives.

Candles flicker for ambience, mouth-watering aromas float in from the kitchen. Glasses of wine make the small talk more palatable. Maybe this Thanksgiving will be different, you wonder. But it's not. By the time the first dollop of mashed potatoes hits your plate, the mood darkens. Tensions rise as family members drag old skeletons from closets you thought you'd locked. Nothing, not even pumpkin pie, can prevent the chaos now. This always happens.

No matter how hard you try, the holiday ends in shouting and tears. As you push food scraps around your plate, a terrible thought crosses your mind. What if I slipped something in the dessert to make it all stuff? Of course you don't actually mean it. You'd never act on these thoughts. but others have. I'm Greg Poulson, co-host of serial killers, a Spotify original from Parkast. Every week, Vanessa Richardson and I dive into the minds and madness behind history's worst murders. This holiday season, we're telling the story of a different kind of killer,

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Now your fingers are feeling numb and tingly. You don't know what's happening. Or why? It couldn't have anything to do with the sweet old woman who served you dinner 30 minutes ago. could it? These days, arsenic calls to mind an archetypal killer, a maternly caregiver with a strange vial in her spice rack. Her intentions seem pure.

She says she wants to fatten you up with a home-cooked meal. But there's more than broth and cornstarch in her gravy. It's her unassuming nature that makes her dangerous. It's why police haven't found the graveyard beneath her rose bushes. Why later in interviews, her neighbors will express shock and awe when the bodies are found, and the headlines come out. This character may sound cliche, but we don't need to travel very far back in time to find some real-world inspiration.

Our first stop, Thanksgiving Day, 1924. Macy's department stores sends its first holiday parade down 6th Avenue in Manhattan. Meanwhile, some 500 miles away, in Hard Scrabble, Ohio, a woman named Martha Wise-Hazel arrives on her mother's doorstep. Martha's presence comes as a surprise to her mother, Sophia. Recently, their relationship has been a bit strained. Martha's always been a bit odd, in a morbid kind of way. For years, she's attended every funeral in a 20-mile radius of her home.

Whether she knows the deceased or not, she'll cry alongside the mourners, reveling in the sadness of strangers. That's not the current sticking point between Martha and her mother, though. At the moment, Sophia's put off by her daughter's dating life. Martha's husband Albert died last year, and Martha already started seeing a much younger man. Sophia really doesn't want them getting married. This Thanksgiving, Martha appears to offer her mom an olive branch. She shows up alone, no boyfriend in sight. They enjoy a meal together as a family, and, so far as anyone knows, there are no fights. Later that evening,

Sophia and some of the other dinner guests fall ill. First, it's stomach pains, cramps, then vomiting. They assume it's a case of food poisoning, maybe some spoiled turkey. Most of them recover within a few weeks. But not Sophia. She dies by mid-December. Doctors eventually blame stomach inflammation. A few weeks later, the Hossil family gathers for New Year's Eve. The evening is like deja vu. 17 family members come down with the same mysterious illness. Four children become paralyzed. Two die.

Martha Wise, on the other hand, escapes both events unscathed. This raises some eyebrows, and soon a troubling account comes to light. In the weeks leading up to Thanksgiving, someone in hardscrabble saw Martha purchasing a bunch of arsenic. Her family eventually puts two and two together, and Martha goes to prison. She's given a nickname, the poison widow of hardscrabble, and becomes almost universally hated. No one will invite her to any more holiday parties, that's for sure. In fact, when she's released from jail at the age of 79, Martha faces so much disdain that she volunteers to go back to prison.

But before that happens, in the same year as Martha's murders, hundreds of months. miles away on the East Coast, the most famous arsenic poisoner in American history is escaping the rigid confines of prison. Authorities transfer Amy Archer Gilligan to a much nicer room at Connecticut Valley Hospital. Officially, this is because prison staff believe she's insane and needs psychiatric treatment, but some believe it's just another one of Amy's poise. She's proven she'll do anything and kill anyone in her own self-interest. For about a decade, Amy ran a nursing home for the elderly and infirm in Windsor, Connecticut. Many entered healthy, only to exit in coffins, after conveniently adding Amy to their last will and testament.

Newspapers called the nursing home a murder factory, and tests revealed that almost two dozen of Amy's patients showed evidence of arsenic poisoning. Before Amy and Martha, there was Marianne Cotton, widely considered Britain's first serial killer. suspected of poisoning at least three of her husbands and 11 of her children before anyone caught on. After Mary Ann came Nanny Doss, aka the Giggling Granny. Because she smiled and laughed a lot, even while recounting her many murders. She's remembered as Alabama's most prolific serial killer, with a body count that included at least four husbands and likely a few children, two sisters, her mother, her mother-in-law, and some grandchildren.

Later on, in the 70s and 80s, a woman named Judy Bueno Anio poisoned two lovers and her son. The final straw came when she failed to kill her boyfriend by trying to blow up his car with a bomb. I could provide more examples, but you'll get the point. These women have been called black widows, gold diggers, scorned exes. In another century, they might have been called redos. witches. As far as killers go, their death rates rival or surpass the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer and Jack the Ripper, but their legacies couldn't be any more different, thanks in part to their weapon of choice, an odorless, tasteless substance that now carries a distinctly

feminine reputation. Of course, stereotypes are reductive, and arsenic itself is genderless, a naturally occurring metalloid, and one of the most common elements in the earth's crust. As for the poison commonly referred to as arsenic, that comes in the form of a compound formerly known as arsenic trioxide. In movies, you'll notice it often looks like sugar, white, and powder-like. It's extremely effective. Because arsenic trioxide has no smell or taste, it's virtually undetectable when slipped into food or drink.

And its initial symptoms can easily be mistaken for a run-of-the-mill stomach book. Plus, the process of dying can take time. Depending on if it's administered all at once or in gradual installments, it could take anywhere from a few days to a few months. So there's rarely a crime scene to investigate. Which is why, for most of history, arsenic wasn't just used by villainous grannies or desperate housewives. It was a preferred choice for anyone who lacked scruples,

including ancient Roman politicians. Back before the common era, suspected poisonings of powerful Romans resulted in thousands being put to death, accused of large-scale political conspiracies. So many wives reportedly tried to kill their husbands that the word adulterous became synonymous with poisoner. Men bribe doctors to slip toxins to their rivals. Nobles poisoned pregnant relatives to eliminate errors.

Here's how the Roman poet, Juvenile, described social and political mobility. If you want to be anybody nowadays, you must dare some crime that warrants exile or jail. Honesty is praised and starves. It is to their crimes that men owe their pleasure grounds and high commands. Cut to 82 BC. Out of desperation, the Roman dictator Lucius Cornelius Sulla enacts what's likely the first ever laws against poison and its usage. But it doesn't really work.

A little more than a century later, historians' books believed Nero employed arsenic to assassinate his step-brother, paving his way to becoming Emperor of Rome. By the time Renaissance politicians got their hands on the substance in the 16th century, they became almost Machiavellian in their usage. It's the era of the House of Borgia, a family who will become famous for weaponizing arsenic to increase their already expansive influence and power. The Patriarch lives in an enormous estate, now considered its own tiny country, the Vatican,

Yes, Pope Alexander VI serves as the head of the Roman Catholic Church and the House of Borsia. According to rumors, if you were to ever meet the Pope's son, Chaseray, you might notice a specially crafted ring on his finger, with a tiny clasp that opened to a hollowed center, used to store a tasteless white powder the family calls La Cantarella. Oh, this old ring, all the better to kill you with, my dear. Throughout their brutal reign, the Borgia used a wide variety of poisons to dispose of their enemies, but L'Akontorella goes down as their most famous.

As far as we know, they never personally wrote down instructions for how to make it. But over a century later, a few Roman physicians apparently did. Here's their rather bizarre recipe. First, forcefully administer arsenic to a pig until it dimes, then harvest its rotting bowls and let them dry. Once finished, mash those entrails into a fine powder. And you're done. In addition to the arsenic, your poison is filled with a host of life-threatening bacteria and toxins.

Of all the members of the House of Borsia, one has become the most famous for killing with poison. It's the Pope's illegitimate daughter, Lucrezia. For centuries after she died, plays in operas depicted her as the original Femphatal, the dead deadly a snake in a house of vipers. Lucretia's legacy undeniably contributed to poison's reputation as a female weapon. But there's probably not much truth to the claims. Historians today believe Lucretia wasn't a viper so much as a scapegoat for the men in her life,

guilty of her brother and father's crimes by association more than anything. But the alternative did make for better stories, stories which may have gone on to inspire other members of Lucrezia's sex, like fellow Italian Julia Tofana. Julia lived in the 17th century. If legends are true, she brought black market arsenic to the mainstream, in an explosive, even commercial way. In doing so, she became arguably the most successful assassin to ever walk this earth. It's July 1633. In Palermo Sicily, Tofania-Didamo prepares to die an absolutely horrific death. Tophany's executioners will either tie her limbs to the back of a horse, drag her body to the gallows, hang her until she's almost dead, decapitate her, and then publicly cut her corpse into four

pieces. Or they'll stuff her into a canvas sack, tie it shut, and throw her off a roof, and into a crowd of spectators waiting for the moment of impact. All because she supposedly helped to create an incredibly lethal poison, which she may have used to be a lot of people. She may have used to kill a few people, including her husband. According to rumors, before she dies, Tofania passes the recipe onto a woman assumed to be her daughter, Julia Tofana. Julia then flees to Rome, buys a ton of arsenic off a priest, and launches a line of beauty products in a newly burgeoning underground criminal market.

Most are similar to what you see on shelves today, creams, makeup, perfumes. But for the Italian woman looking to restore their youthful glow and solve their marital problems. Julius sells a tincture called Aquatoffana. It comes in a beautiful glass file with the image of a Christian saint on its label. The packaging is intentionally deceptive. Any aspiring widow can discreetly display it on their vanity, without their husband finding out it's laced with a poison, capable of killing a full-grown man with just four to six drops. Acuofana becomes a hit among wives trying to escape abusive, loveless marriages. In an era where women are auctioned off as property and given little to no agency, it helps tip the scales ever so slightly back in their favor.

The poison flies off the shelves for decades. Then one day, a housewife reportedly adds a couple drops to her husband's soup. Before he slurps down a spoonful, she has second thoughts and stops him. He gets suspicious, beats the truth out of her, and Julia's secret comes to light, which, as you can imagine, doesn't go over well. First, officials launch a manhunt to find Julia. She seeks asylum in a church. Rumors spread about her dumping Aquatofana in the city's drinking water. The halt chase turns into quite the ordeal.

But when all is said and done, authorities find Julia, arrest her, and after days of brutal torture, she confesses to her. aiding and abetting in the deaths of as many as 600 men, including two popes. You know, some guys just can't hold their arsenic. Of course, her confession is given under severe duress, so it's best to take it with a grain of salt. But there's no doubt the Italian patriarchy is shaking in their boots. Authorities execute Julia, along with the women who assisted her. But the one thing they can't kill is her product.

Almost a century later, Bozart will reportedly wonder on his deathbed, whether someone slipped him aquatopana and caused his mysterious ailment. Arsenic in general becomes more widely used in the 17th century. It's no longer just a tool for the elite. It's something everyone has access to. In Paris, it's given the nickname, Inheritance Powder, like it's some sort of over-the-counter medicine. Are you tired of waiting to get access to your loved one's estate? try some fast-acting DA's inheritance powder. Apply it to whoever's causing the congestion,

and you'll see immediate results. Funeral expense is not included. Cut to the golden age of arsenic. Where the poison's not considered this or that, male or female, elite or common. You didn't have to be the target of a political rifle or spurned X to be in danger, because arsenic was everywhere.

During the Industrial Revolution, the world starts to produce a lot more steel, which, as you may know, is an alloy of iron and other metals. Now, remember earlier when I mentioned arsenic as a naturally occurring metalloid, and one of the most common elements in the Earth's crust? Well, unrefined iron and copper ore contain arsenic deposits. During steel production, those deposits get oxidized and turn into their more lethal form, arsenic trioxide. By the turn of the 19th century, as demand sores, steel workers look up, past the smoke and the roaring fires of their forches to the massive chimneys overhead. They see a strange white material condensing around the edges. It almost looks like snow, and every so often they need to scrape it off so the vent doesn't close up entirely. Rather than throw it away, factory managers decide to sell the byproduct as exactly what it is, a poison,

And just like that, arsenic gets a rebrand. Companies marketed as a commercial remedy for household pests. In Germany, they call it Moisebuda, literally mouse butter. America and Europe became saturated with arsenic-based insecticides, herbicides, and wood preservatives. Almost simultaneously, a Swedish chemist named Carl Wilhelm Shayla learns that arsenic makes a pretty good dying agent. the color becomes known as Shayla's green, and in time it becomes in vogue. Candles, curtains, wallpaper, and clothing all come in lovely shades of Shayla's. By the Victorian era, the average consumer can pick up arsenic-laced products at their local convenience store,

and this causes some problems. There are, of course, those still using arsenic to murder in cold blood, like Geisha Gottfried, aka the Angel of Bremen. A German woman beheaded for using Moisebuda to murder 15 of her loved ones, all while playing the role of concerned nurse. Or Elen Gagadeau, a French maid who poisons and kills more than 30 people in her lengthy career. But arsenic trioxide starts wrapping up unintentional deaths as well. One English worker mistakes a barrel of the white powder for a baking ingredient.

200 people become violently ill after trying to satisfy their sweet tooth. 20 of them die. A woman who colors eventually drops dead from chronic exposure. She vomits green bile, convulses, and starts foaming at the mouth. According to reports, her fingernails and the whites of her eyes turned green too. Worst of all, that chemist who made the die, Carl Shayla, knew his product was toxic, The same year he invented it, he discovered a way to detect arsenic.

Turns out if you treat it with nitric acid and zinc, it produces a gas that smells almost like garlic. For obvious reasons, Shayla's green falls out of fashion. It's hard to know exactly how many factory workers die in its golden age. As we mentioned, arsenic poisoning can be mistaken for other ailments. But also, chronic exposure can cause other fatal diseases, like cancer the skin, bladder, and lungs. Determining a precise cause of death could be quite confusing. In his final days, French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte suspected he might have been poisoned by a political rival.

While in exile after his defeat by the British, he wrote, I die before my time, murdered by the British oligarchy and its hired assassin. Tests later showed a surprisingly high amount of arsenic in Napoleon's hair, but not enough to suggest a murder attempt. The famous military leader might have actually been bested by an interior design choice. Someone used that color, Shayla's green, to paint the wallpaper in his final residence. Arsenic may not have killed him outright, but exposure certainly didn't help his already pervasive health problems.

So how could medical professionals determine the difference between someone who was murdered with arsenic versus someone who was overexposed? Well, the answer is, it was nearly impossible. let alone prove in a court of law. As evidenced by the experience of one London chemist in 1833, that November, the Bodle family falls violently ill after drinking from the same coffee pot. The father, George Bodle, doesn't survive. Turns out he drank most of the coffee and from the least eluded batch.

The forensics of the case end up in the hands of chemist James Marsh, a man with no previous experience for testing arsenic. but he knows what he's doing. After he get his hands on the suspect coffee, he flings it into a nearby fireplace, and the smell of garlic fills the room, which is obviously suspicious. Marsh runs tests on the coffee grounds,

George's vomit, and the contents of his stomach. He learns the grounds contain more than enough arsenic to kill. And as Marsh toils away in his lab, investigators home in on a murder suspect, George's grandson, John. He has a possible motive. George recently fired John from a family business, plus authorities find a stockpile of arsenic in John's home.

Now, John claims the arsenic is innocent. He tells officials he's using it to treat a skin rash. And believe it or not, this is actually a pretty reasonable defense. At the time, arsenic is prescribed to treat a whole slew of medical issues. One of the most popular tonics used to treat malaria and syphilis is an arsenic-laced formula known as Fowler's Solution. John is guilty, though. He later confesses to murdering his grandfather.

But before that happens, when John's case goes to trial, he's acquitted. A jury of his peers finds him innocent. James Marsh's coffee-ground tests weren't enough to get a conviction. This is partly because methods for detecting arsenic are pretty unreliable, especially when dealing with organic matter, like George's vomit. There was no real way for Marsh or anyone for that matter to prove the cause of death and connected to the culprit, certainly not beyond a shadow of a doubt. Up until this point, poisoners have basically been convicted based on circumstantial evidence,

rumors and pure slander. So Marsh tries to find a new, more foolproof test. After a bunch of trial and error, he creates this complex apparatus with lots of tubes, cylinders, and cauldrons for collecting gas. And it works. The Marsh test becomes the gold standard for the next 150 years. Murders become easier to detect and prosecute, marking the beginning of the end of arsenic's reign as the king of poisons,

but only in the literal sense. See, Marsh's discovery attracts a lot of public attention. With literacy on the rise and newspapers getting cheaper, the world starts reading more stories about arsenic, the silent killer. And this wave of publicity comes with an unfortunate side effect. Mass panic. By the mid to late 19th century, Arsenic starts making headlines. The silent killer has been around for centuries,

but the now widespread stories of murder and death give way to a brand new fear. Arsenic finds its way into newspapers, tabloids, and popular fiction, which gives way to sensationalism, panic, and superstition. Rumors and reports strengthen its long-held. connection to witchcraft and the supernatural. Perhaps none more so than the Austrian arsenic eaters. In 1851, a Viennese medical journal publishes a strange report, describing a group of peasants living in the mountains of Austria who eat large quantities

of arsenic two or three times a week. These arsenic eaters would apparently consume as much as 300 milligrams of arsenic in a single setting. For context, ingesting just 70 milligrams can be lethal. And yet, these peasants claim they eat arsenic by the fistful because it's good for their health. It gives them, quote, good wind and helps them perform hard labor at high elevations. The report even suggests that it may help their beauty regimens, giving them smooth, unblemished skin and rosy cheeks. Naturally, the account baffles the medical community.

Few believe it's real. But in 1875, a medical conference in Austria puts two arsenic eaters to, the test in front of a live audience. One eats a 400 milligram lump of arsenic, the other 300. To the crowd, this must have seemed like a magic trick. Surely they're about to witness the two men keel over, vomit, and die. But the next day, the Austrians reappeared, healthy as ever. And everyone's left wondering, how the devil was that possible? Well, it may break the magician's golden rule, but I'll let you in on the secret. When arsenic gets dissolved in food or drink, it can easily enter your system, and arsenic

molecules go to work shutting the body down. On a molecular level, arsenic molecules are similar in structure to phosphorus, something that our cells use to help produce energy. Imagine, if you will, a room being filled with a steady stream of water. There are a bunch of doors to let the water out, but they're locked. In this metaphor, the room is a cell, and the doors are chemical reaction sites. Phosphorus acts like a key, opening the doors to allow water to flow, causing reactions and generating energy. Arsenate, on the other hand, essentially clogs the keyhole.

If enough doors become clogged, the cell dies. And if enough cells die, organs will start to fail. In 1875, when officials test the urine of the arsenic heaters, they find the samples contain an unusually high concentration of arsenic. Enough that, it seems, most of it didn't get absorbed into their bloodstreams. It ran straight through them. See, when eaten whole and in large quantities, arsenic doesn't break down fast enough to cause too much damage. Your body only absorbs enough arsenic molecules to eliminate some bacteria in your skin,

making you positively radiant. When this news reaches Victorian England, arsenic once again becomes a beauty trend, a la Aquatofana. But this time, the intent is to attractimate, not kill them. Complexion wafers, made of arsenic, promised to impart beauty to any literal consumer. The fat creates problems for criminal courts. Lawyers start to invoke what becomes known as the Styrian defense. Hysteria being the region of Austria the arsenic eaters are from.

Now, when someone dies and arsenic is found in their system, it's fair to claim they just wanted better skin. And while the arsenic eaters and their strange proclivities have been debunked as having nothing to do with magic, they may have had a hand in inspiring one of the most famous supernatural creatures ever. Vampires. Now, to be clear, no one knows the true origin of vampire lore, but arsenic was a popular embalming agent throughout history, meaning it helped preserve corpses. In Styria, where eating arsenic was part of the culture, there are counts of bodies exhumed 12 years after burial that appeared eerily intact. It's not hard to imagine that stories like this inspired some of the original vampire legends,

especially since Styria is located in Southeast Austria, not too far from Olden-day Transylvania, home of Dracula. Arsenic's relationship to the supernatural continued on into the 20th century. In Chicago, right before the Roaring 20s, a Polish immigrant named Tilly Clemack, starts having ominous premonitions, visions of strangers, neighbors, and dogs dying, and every one of them comes true. She even foretells the death of her first, second, and third husbands. I guess it's not so hard when you're about to poison that person with a boatload of arsenic. Tilly is eventually tried and convicted of 13 counts of murder. But as the 20th century continues, killers like Tilly become more rare. There are still those who try their hand, like

Martha Wise Hossel and Amy Archer Gilligan. But better testing makes it more difficult for poisoners to get away with murder. Legislation starts protecting factory workers from overexposure, and arsenic becomes a prop in pop culture, something to laugh at rather than fear. Can you imagine, after all the death and dying we've discussed? It's 1941. You're sitting in the Fulton Theater in New York City.

The lights go down and the curtains rise on a set. The parlor of an old Brooklyn home. The player you're about to watch has earned rave reviews from critics, arsenic and old lace. They're calling it one of the best dark comedies ever produced. The story is inspired by the real-life murders of Amy Archer Gilligan. It features a pair of elderly ladies who poison lonely old men. The characters describe their method of poisoning like it's a family recipe. For a gallon of elderberry wine, I take a teaspoon of arsenic, and add a half teaspoon of strychnine,

and then just a pinch of cyanide, one says. Arsenic becomes a tool for farce, or murder method for old spinsters. The story of Marianne Cotton even gets turned into an English nursery rhyme. Mary Ann Cotton, she's dead and she's rotten, lying in bed with her eyes wide open. Sing, sing, oh, what should I sing? Marianne Cotton, she's tied up with string. Where, where? Up in the air. Selling black puddings a penny a pair.

England's first serial killer goes from killing children to putting them to sleep. Even in Agatha Christie's time, arsenic is seen as a passe-m method of murder. In a writing career that encompassed over 300 imagined murders, Christie only killed eight of her characters with arsenic. But poison doesn't totally disappear into fiction during the 20th century. It just becomes less domestic in its application. During the First World War, American scientists developed something called Lewisite gas. an arsenic-based chemical weapon meant for frontline warfare.

The gas attacks the eyes, respiratory system, and skin, causing long-term disease, blindness, and cancer. In November 1918, a ship rumored to contain 150 tons of the stuff sails to Europe to aid in the ongoing efforts. But the war comes to an end that month, and the vessel sinks before it sees action. And though it stays in production, there's little evidence to suggest it played a significant role in any war since.

Which brings us back to the present day. A time where arsenic no longer poses a threat. Right. Oh, come on. You didn't think this holiday would end on a high note, did you? It is Thanksgiving, after all. Take a look at that turkey you just ate. Believe it or not, when it was alive, it was probably fed arsenic, in small quantities to kill off parasites and lighten the color of the meat so it looks more appetizing.

But don't worry about taking another. bite. If anything, you should be worried about the arsenic under your feet. We've mentioned a few times now that it's one of the most common elements of the Earth's crust, the majority of which isn't toxic at the moment. But that has a potential to change. Take Utah's Great Salt Lake. In recent years, as water levels lower due to population, growth, and climate change, the sun's rays threatened to expose its arsenic-rich bed. If oxidized, it could spell disaster for surrounding communities. Contaminated water. Toxin-filled air. Lawmakers have called the dormant threat, a potential environmental nuclear bomb. And it's not just Utah. Contaminated groundwater has become

a problem across the globe. According to a 2016 study, many people living in Nepal may be unwittingly drinking water containing arsenic. In 2019, a report found that California inmates only had access to arsenic-laced well water, because the government did. didn't maintain proper health standards, which is to say a lot has changed since the Industrial Revolution, and a lot has stayed the same. In a sense, our planet has always been painted in shadeless green, and we're all unsuspecting Victorian housewives, waiting for the silent killer to strike. That's a talking point I'm sure we'll go over well this Thanksgiving. But hey, midst all the fighting and the tears and the existential dread, at least you're still alive.

So why not dig in? Enjoy one more slice of pie. It probably won't kill you. Thanks for tuning into this special holiday episode brought you by serial killers. For more information on arsenic and its history, amongst the many sources we used, we found bitten by witch fever, wallpaper and arsenic in the Victorian home by Lucinda Hawksley, extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of serial killers and all other Spotify originals from Parcast for free

on Spotify. Happy Thanksgiving. I'll see you next time. Serial Killers is a Spotify original from Pardcast, executive produced by Max Cutler. Our head of programming is Julian Boisro. Our supervising sound designer is Russell Nash, with Nick Johnson as our head of production and quality control by Spencer Howard. Ben Bishop is our supervising editor and Derek Jennings is our writing lead. This episode of serial killers was written by Robert Teamstra and Connor Samson, edited by Ellie Wicker, fact-checked by Haley Milliken, researched by Brian Petrus, produced by Bruce Katovich, and sound design by Michael Motion. I'm Greg Poulson.