Prime Crime: Solved Murders - The Easter Sunday Killings Pt. 1

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

In the early hours of Easter Sunday in 1937, model Ronnie Gedeon, her mother Mary, and their boarder Frank Byrnes were brutally murdered inside their apartment. After many leads fell through, authorities found the best clue came from Ronnie's diary and a bar of soap. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Due to the graphic nature of this murder case, listener discretion is advised. This episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder, gore, sexual violence, and police brutality that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13. At 2.15 a.m. on Easter Sunday, Charles Robinson arrived at his apartment building on the east side of Manhattan. Exhausted from a long day, he began the six-floor clans. to his place. But on the fourth floor, something caught his eye. The door to number 16 was partway open. Charles could see into the foyer. He struggled to remember these residents' names, the Gettians, he believed. That's when he noticed the door slowly

closing. It wasn't wind or gravity either. It seemed like someone inside was pushing it shut. Something about the slow, deliberate motion felt almost sinister. The sight unnerved Charles. He dashed back to the stairs and up to his apartment. Once inside, he couldn't shake the feeling someone had been watching him. By the next day, Charles, as well as the rest of the building residents, would learn that an awful horror had occurred behind that door. Welcome to Solved Murders True Crime Mysteries, a Spotify original from Parcast. I'm your host Carter Roy. And I'm your host, Wendy McKenzie.

Every Wednesday we step into the world of true crimes, most fascinating murder cases, and tell the tale of how real-life detectives close the case. You can find episodes of Solve Murders and all other Spotify originals from Parcast for free exclusively on Spotify. This is our first episode on the Easter Sunday, killings. This week will cover the triple homicide, a mountain of misleading information, and unexpected revelations. Next week, we'll tell the story of an unforeseen hero in the case, and follow the sensational manhunt for the killer. We have all that and more coming up. Stay with us. I knew about investing, but I really didn't know how to go about it. Meet Corey, a Walthfront client.

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It was Easter Sunday, 1937. 28-year-old Ethel Kudner and her husband stepped out of a taxi outside an apartment building on the east side of Manhattan. They'd come to celebrate the holiday with Ethel's family. Ethel's mother, Mary Gettian, was preparing dinner. Ethel's sister Veronica or Ronnie, who lived with Mary, would also be there. Plus their father, Joseph. Mary and Joseph were estranged, but they were willing to get together for the occasion.

Ethel spotted Joseph at the front door of the building, waiting to be buzzed in. When she and her husband approached, she noticed that her father reeked of booze. She wasn't surprised. Also, par for the course, Joseph immediately started complaining. Your mom and sister are taking their sweet time. Don't worry, Dad. I'm sure they're just setting up. I'm going to slip in. You can come with me if you want. Eventually, a resident came out and Joseph slipped inside. Ethel's feet were hurting from breaking in her new heels, and she didn't want to climb

four flights if they weren't home. So she and her husband stayed behind. minutes, Joseph was back. He flung the door open and stopped in his tracks. He was out of breath, and all the blood was drained from his face. Your sister is dead. She's murdered. The three of them dashed up to the apartment. Once inside, Ronnie's small dog rushed to them, but they ignored him. Ethel spotted an uncooked porkloin and fresh green beans on the counter, ready for the oven. Everything seemed so normal that for a moment, Eiffel thought her father was playing a twisted joke. But as she measured her steps toward Ronnie and Mary's shared bedroom,

she staled herself. She arrived at the bedroom door, pushed it open, and almost collapsed to the ground. 23-year-old Ronnie lay on the bed. A bruise circled her neck. Ethel stumbled back to the living room where the two men were standing next to each other, in sobering horror.

They didn't know where Mary was, but Joseph did think of Mary's border, an Englishman named Frank Burns. Frank had recently begun renting a spare room in the apartment. Joseph made his way to that room, opened the door and found another grisly scene. Frank lay lifeless on his bed. His head was covered in stab wounds. Joseph couldn't even make out his face. Joseph ran to the police station, a block. away, while his son-in-law called the police directly, and soon the apartment was filled with

officers. The dog began barking as they filed in, and the family was escorted out. After an initial scan, a detective emerged from Mary and Ronnie's room. He told the other officials in the apartment that he discovered Mary's body underneath the bed. Meanwhile, a slew of specialists continued their work on the scene. This included Deputy Chief Inspector Francis Keir, assistant chief inspector John Lyons, and Detective Martin Owens, all of whom would eventually see the case to its end. The men first agreed that they needed to learn more about the state of the victim's bodies. They enlisted the medical examiner, Dr. Thomas Gonzalez. The doctor performed a preliminary examination and determined that Ronnie and Mary had both died

by strangulation. He also noted that Ronnie was naked and Mary's underwear had been removed. Detectives theorized that they had been raped. Based on the neck injuries, Gonzalez and others believed that the killer must have had strong hands, but they would need autopsy results to be certain. The inspectors then switched their attention to Frank. The Englishman had been stabbed in the head 11 times with what appeared to be some sort of spike. They also found a single small suede glove in the room, which they kept as a clue. After examining all the bodies, the inspectors had to discern the time of the attacks. Kieran Lyons sent out officers to question the neighbors.

One neighbor said he heard a scuffle and cry around 11 p.m. Another, Charles Robinson, reported seeing the Gettian's front door open after 2 a.m. In addition, Charles said that someone inside had closed the door as he approached. Based on all this, Lyons figured that the killer was inside the apartment from around 10 p.m. to 3 a.m. Officers noted the scuffle in particular. But as Owens and another detective stood in the middle of the living room, they found it odd that there was little evidence of a struggle. There was one possible sign of disorder.

several broken chunks of soap scattered on the living room floor. As they took a closer look at the soap, they noticed something peculiar. Look here. Do you see these markings? Why, yes. Try not to press too hard. That might be something. Wouldn't want to rub it off. What does it look like to you? I'm not sure. You think the dog got to it? Doesn't look like dog scratches. Looks more like... A face?

Look, if you put the pieces together, it forms a face. Eventually, officers began to speculate, where their carvings in the soap resembled the face of one of the Gettian women. But as that theory took root, there was still more to examine in the apartment. Speaking of the dog, it hasn't shut up since we've been here. And yet, none of the neighbors mentioned the dog barking in the middle of the night. So you think... The dog knew the killer!

Just then, another officer came out from Mary and Ronnie's room. He had two small books in his hands. One of the books had my five-year diary written on the cover. The other was filled with men's names, numbers, and addresses. The officer handed the books to Owens. We found these in Ronnie's belongings. All right. I want a team on the dog.

I want to know if she was afraid of anyone, especially any boyfriends. It's usually the husband or boyfriend. Sir, there's tons of entries. It goes back to when she was 18. And? How busy can a young woman be? Plenty busy if you look at her dress book. It's filled with fella's names. I'm sorry. You have something better to do?

Just then the Gideon's telephone rang. One of the detectives picked it up. A young man was calling for Ronnie. He said his name was Stephen Butter. Already wary of the men in Ronnie's life and galvanized by a potential suspect, officers immediately set out to escort Stephen to the station. They wanted the commissioner to handle the young man's questioning. Up next, NYPD's top officer turns up the heat. Hi, I'm Christine Schiefer.

And I'm M. Schultz, where are the hosts of Rituals, the new Spotify arrangement? original from Parcast. If you've heard our podcast and that's what we drink, you know we are no strangers to true crime and the paranormal. We're also into the occult to chat about, not to join, but, you know, to learn and educate. Every Monday on rituals, we're journeying through mystifying stories of sorcery, alchemy, Satanism, and more, and trying to determine if the dark arts of the past impact us today. Like weather witches, who were they? Or the fountain of youth?

Address, please. Don't forget about werewolf trials, M. Objection, Christine. Let's not give too much away. And instead, let's tell everyone to follow our new podcast rituals, free and only on Spotify. And now, back to our story. Ronnie Gettian, her mother Mary, and their boarder Frank Burns had all been brutally murdered inside their apartment on Easter Sunday, 1937. That same day, a potential suspect, Ronnie's friend Stephen Butter,

dropped himself right into law enforcement's hands. Soon, he'd reveal key information. Commissioner Louis Valentine planned to question Stephen. Along with being the highest-ranking member of the NYPD, Valentine had a reputation for breaking suspects into confessing. But Valentine was also intuitive, so regardless of his ferocity, he took one look at Stephen and knew he wasn't guilty.

A look of open concern shaded the 23-year-old's face, but Valentine still needed to know more about Ronnie, and soon he'd learn a lot. What is your relationship with Ronnie Gideon? I only met her last night. She's dating my friend who went away for the weekend, and I was supposed to entertain her. We planned to get together with one of my other friends,

plus her friend Gene Carp, but Gene cancelled, so it was just me, Ronnie, and my buddy. What did the three of you do? do? She made us a spaghetti dinner. We listened to the radio and danced. My friend left around 2 a.m. And me and Ronnie went to a bar. We stayed for about an hour before I walked her home. And why did you call Ronnie this morning? We were supposed to go to Mass at 10, but no one answered the door. So I went back to my place and tried calling and calling from my phone, but nobody picked up until that cop. Sir, is Ronnie okay?

Well, I'm afraid I have some terrible news. After delivering the bad news, Valentine let the heartbroken Stephen go home. Sometime after, officers learned more about Ronnie, namely her career and how it might have been related to the case. She'd been a successful cover model for pulpy true crime magazines, such as dynamic detective, real detective, and true detective. She often posed as a victim in the midst of terror with little clothing on. Officers saw dark similarity between Ronnie's cover shots and the nature of her death. Not to mention, if the press caught wind of this parallel, they'd have a field day. After all, papers had already begun speculating whether Mary and Ronnie had been sexually violated,

but investigators had to focus on what was in their control. First, they wanted to know where Joseph Gettian was the night of the murders. As it turned out, he was able to provide an alibi. He claimed he was at Corrigan's Bar and Grill and that he arrived there at 7 p.m. and returned home after 3 a.m. They learned he owned an upholstery shop, as that had become his home after he moved out of the family apartment. Officers released him, but assured him they'd confirm his story.

With Joseph's alibi in hand, they now set their curiosities on Ronnie's ex-husband, Bobby Flower. Detectives had learned about Bobby and Ronnie's diary. According to her entries, which dated back to 1932, Bobby was a family friend, and around that same year, Ronnie fell deeply in love with him. They married when she was only 16, but ultimately they broke up after several months and had the marriage annulled, citing the fact that Ronnie was a minor at the time that they wed. However, despite several detectives reading the entries, they couldn't make sense of certain things. According to direct quotes from her diary, detailed in Harold Schechter's 2014 book on the case,

the entries described a girl's first dizzying romance until they didn't. Mommy's the most lovable creature. He's my first love and also my last. crazy about him. I'm afraid of B. He's been hanging around the house ever since Ethel handed him a large dose of ozone. It seemed that within a year,

Ronnie went from lovesick to fearful over Bobby. Not only that, but it sounded like Bobby had apparently developed an unsettling obsession over Ethel, her own sister. This sparked many questions. Officers needed to speak with the ex-husband

husband, thanks to the diary, they knew where to find him. Two detectives arrived at a bowling alley on East 15th Street. They went inside, found Bobby, and took him to a quiet corner to chat. Right away, it was clear that Bobby was still recovering from the shocking news. I'm sorry, I heard last night. I'm trying to help around here, but I still feel sick. The papers say she and Mary were violated. it. We're still determining whether that's true, but right now, tell us where you were on Saturday

night. I was here until after closing. Saturday night's busy here. Can anyone confirm that? Yes, my co-workers. Can you tell us about your relationship with Ronnie's sister, Ethel? Ethel? Sure. We might have had some differences toward the end of the marriage, but we always got along. I still see her sometimes when I catch up with the family. Do you have any idea why Ronnie might have thought you were obsessed with her sister? What? No, I don't know what gave her that idea. She never told me she felt that way. Bobby's statements created more questions than they answered.

Detectives had to figure out how all of these pieces fit together. Plus, they had another missing piece identified by a friend of Ronnie's who had been staying in the apartment shortly before the murders. When they brought the friend to the crime scene to see if anything seemed to skew in the apartment, she asked about the baby Ben clock that Ronnie had on her nightstand, and if the officers had taken it. They hadn't, which added to the mystery. The detectives tried to work fast

because just as officers anticipated, more and more reporters were latching onto the case. They started crowding outside the apartment building. But detectives didn't have time to manage the media. They still had other work to do. Officers then turned their attention from Ronnie to make. Mary and Frank. First, they found that those who knew Mary described her as tight with money. Detectives questioned whether she'd underpaid the wrong person. However, there was still the

possibility that neither of the Gideon women were the killer's main targets. Detectives also learned that Frank was born in Liverpool and had worked as a waiter at a tennis club on Park Avenue. While it seemed like he didn't have many friends or family, his acquaintances said he was something of a ladies' man. Officers speculated whether Frank was the primary target, and Ronnie and Mary were collateral damage. Still, none of this information seemed to warrant the level of press interest that had spawned. Even major publications like the Daily Mirror wanted the inside scoop,

and their focus was still on Ronnie. I hate to say it, but I think someone on the force tipped off the boys at the mirror. They're asking about Ronnie mostly. A beautiful young model and triple homicide, not to mention possible sexual motives. Those reporters will milk that story for everything it's worth. Every penny. I've got a gut feeling Ronnie wasn't the target. It's hard to see how Mary or Frank would have been either, though.

There's something we're missing. We're talking to Ronnie's friend Gene soon. The one Stephen mentioned to Valentine? Maybe she'll be able to tell us something useful. Detectives were able to get Jean Carp to agree to me. meet them at the station. Although she was grieving, Jean wanted to help. Miss, can you tell us a little bit about Ronnie? What do you know about her career? Ronnie loved posing for those pictures. She was smart and clever enough to do anything,

and she chose to use her natural talents. She made good money doing it. What about her boyfriends? I don't mean to judge, but we're looking at men close to her, and there seemed to be a lot. She couldn't keep men away from her. But if you're looking for anyone dangerous, I can't help you. She hasn't had any problems with men like that. Jean's description of her friend contrasted with a growing media sensation. With major papers like the mirror leading the charge,

other outlets threw their weight behind the story. They used Ronnie's modeling career to weave a tale of sex and violence that many readers couldn't resist. And just days after the murders, these outlets struck front page gold, in their eyes at least. In addition to the crime magazine covers she was most known for,

Ronnie had modeled for art and photography students, often in the nude. These amateur photographers and artists sold their photos and drawings of Ronnie to the press. Papers blew up black and white, nude photos of Ronnie for their front pages. They blurred, the images so she wasn't shown completely nude, but the idea was still there.

But this angle would be short-lived. Dr. Gonzalez had completed the autopsies for the three victims. He made a significant discovery that would soon throw a wrench into the media's plans. He shared his findings with detectives and started with the basics. Ronnie had consumed plenty of alcohol, and her stomach contained undigested spaghetti. That supports Stephen Butter's story. And Mary? Undigested vegetables. The arrested state of the meal suggests she'd been killed between 10 p.m. and midnight.

That's around when the neighbor heard the cry. Well, officers, I have one final determination that will affect your understanding of the night in question. Despite the bruises and scratches, neither woman shows clear evidence of rape. Dr. Gonzalez was right that his findings altered law enforcement. the enforcement's ideas about the nature of the murders. It altered the media's ideas, too. According to Harold Schechter's book, when the papers got wind of the autopsy reports, they were likely disappointed to lose their angle on sex. But then some outlets thought on their feet and began spouting theories of a, quote, phantom strangler. It was clear the media would

milk this case to its end. And that wasn't all the press had in their pockets. In addition to the details of the women's autopsies, Joseph had started edging into the media spotlight. He delivered troubling remarks and told reporters Ronnie was wild and willful and that she made suckers out of lots of men. These comments blipped on law enforcement's radar. Not only were these comments off-color coming from a supposedly grieving father, but officers had by now surmised that the killer had strong hands, and Joseph needed strength for his work as an upholsterer. So detectives zeroed in on him. Up next, the police find evidence against Joseph Gettion.

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of Ronnie and Mary Gettian and Frank Burns. While testimonies from friends and other findings kept pulling their attention to Ronnie, officers knew that they were missing a vital piece of the puzzle. As law enforcement worked, so did the press. They gripped the public with this dark mystery. Paper struck gold with troubling comments from none other than Joseph Gideon. Two days after the bodies were found, Joseph was seated at a diner when reporters,

including one from the Daily Mirror, approached him. He invited them to sit down. Mr. Gettion, do you have any idea who killed your family? Probably one of Ronnie's boyfriends. A millionaire once offered her a big car, you know. He probably paid someone to do it. How have you been coping with the situation? The whole thing is so annoying. The police grilled me for hours that day. I lost work. A brat daughter and greedy wife will give you all a couple.

kinds of problems. That's quite a stony attitude for someone in your position, wouldn't you say? Look, I'm a fatalist. Whatever happens has to happen, so I get excited about it. Officers read that exchange in the evening paper and thought that Joseph wasn't just cold, but cruel. Their suspicions toward him continued to grow. They visited his upholstery shop to continue their investigation.

A group of detectives led by Captain Frank Kier, Curry went to the shop. Once there, Curry pounded his fist on the door. Joseph answered and appeared still half drunk from the night before. This likely irked the officers more. Curry pushed Joseph aside and the team of policemen rushed into the shop. They tore the place apart as they hunted for evidence. Then, among Joseph's tools, they noticed an 18-inch-long needle.

Its diameter resembled Frank Burr. stab wounds. Joseph explained that all upholsterers used this type of needle, but to the detectives, that didn't mean this one wasn't used in Frank's murder. Once again, Joseph was back at the station for questioning, and this round would be more grueling than the last. A group of interrogators brought Joseph into a small, dim room with no windows. Joseph sat on a wooden chair, seemingly indifferent and irritated. In addition to the needle found at the shop, detectives possessed another piece of evidence

that might connect Joseph to the murders. The gray suede glove found at the crime scene. One of them tossed it into Joseph's lap. That's not mine. I'm two port-owned gloves. It doesn't matter if you can afford it. It fits you. And you know what else?

Your friends at the bar couldn't confirm whether you were there the night your wife and daughter were killed. And you're going to list. into a bunch of drunks? It's their word against yours, and you're not exactly clear-headed either. Listen to me, we've got this glove, and we've got the needle, too, and your alibi is garbage. So let me ask you, your wife and daughter were living with another man. Why should I believe you didn't want him dead?

Want them all dead. You've got it all wrong. Mary and I were separated. And anyway, I don't think any man could be attracted to her. She was cold. maybe the coldest woman I ever knew. Are you even sorry that your wife and daughter were murdered? Sure, I'm sorry.

Whatever. But look, I left because I wasn't respected. Mary just wanted to control me, and Ronnie had all her boyfriends in that little gig she called a career. That apartment was no place for a self-respecting man, so I got out. That's all there is to it. And I was at the bar all night. I'm at the bar all the time.

Call me a drunk, but I'm not a killer. It went on like this for the rest of the day. Interrogators tried to make Joseph crack, and Joseph stood his ground. But eventually things escalated. According to Schechter's book, Joseph sustained contusions as a result of the interrogator's tactics. But regardless of what violence may have taken place, officers did not succeed in getting a murder confession from Joseph. The only thing police had on him was an unlicensed pistol. that they'd found in his apartment.

They planned to charge him for possession of an illegal firearm, but said they'd hold off on filing charges until after Mary and Ronnie's funeral. So Commissioner Valentine plans something else for Joseph. On the day of the funeral, officers escorted Joseph to the parlor. It's unclear whether they did this to keep tabs on him, to prevent him from delivering more problematic remarks to the press or both. Either way, they'd soon be. see a new side of their main suspect.

With a grip on Joseph's arm, officers shoved past reporters who flashed cameras and shouted the suspect's name. Once inside the chapel, Joseph was released, and he spotted a small group of mourners near the caskets. The group included Ethel and her husband Joe, Bobby Flower, Stephen Butter, and Jean Carp. Possibly moved by the sight of those paying their respects, Joseph asked the officers to empty the chapel of spectators. They agreed. Joseph then paid his own respects to his wife and daughter and took a seat behind a sobbing Ethel.

While he hadn't yet shed a tear, he appeared more stoic than officers had seen before. After the service, police escorted Joseph to the burial. Finally, they saw Joseph's walls come down. As Mary and Ronnie were lowered into the earth, Joseph collapsed into Ethel's arms. I'll be honest. If it was him, it's going to be tough to pin him. If he didn't crack yesterday, he's not going to.

Plus, all these reporters see the way he's acting now. I hear you, but I'm not comfortable letting him go yet. I still want to keep him at the station. You got it. By the way, you see Ethel and Bobby? Sure do. They don't match the descriptions in Ronnie's diary at all. He's not obsessed with her.

and she's perfectly comfortable around him. It's about time we get Ethel's side of things. Once Mary and Ronnie were laid to rest, officers brought Joseph back to the station, but it wasn't long until investigators realized just how wrong they were about him. A writer at the magazine, True Detective, one of the publications Ronnie posed for,

interviewed one of Mary and Ronnie's neighbors who claimed they saw Joseph stumble home drunk at three years, AM, the night of the murders. The writer brought this information to the police. Investigators didn't believe it at first. They'd worked their knuckles raw on Joseph.

It's unclear whether the neighbor interviewed had also been questioned by officers when the bodies were discovered. Either way, police had to face it. It was time to let Joseph go. As defeating as this was, investigators weren't at

a total loss yet. They still wanted to talk to Ethel. Again, they had to act fast. The press coverage was gaining traction, and rumors and frenzy could harm law enforcement's efforts. So Detective Owens drove out to Ethel's home in Astoria Queens. Owens was one of the detectives who read Ronnie's diary, and especially since the funeral, he wanted to understand more about Bobby from Ethel's point of view. Ethel was still raw with grief, but she welcomed Detective Owens, ready to help however she could. Seated in their living room, he took out the diary and showed her the pages. I don't understand. In these early sections, she's completely in love with Bobby Flower.

But within a year, she's scared of him. She says he stalked around her home and that he was obsessed with you. Well, I believe you got it all wrong. You see, the parts where Ronnie's all lovey-dovey, that's about Bobby Flower. Those later bits when she's scared? That's Bobby Irwin. Irwin? Yes, Robert George Irwin. He boarded at my mother's home in, oh, 1932. He was a handsome young sculptor who tried to woo me. As Ronnie points out in her diary, he can be quite intense. Intense? Oh yes, he puts the tortured in tortured artist. He believed his His art could bring him powers, magical powers, and he wanted to achieve things with those powers. It's all very strange.

I can't wrap my head around it myself. What did he want to achieve? I can't say for certain. I can tell you that he once made a sculpture of me and gave it to me as a gift. That was after I got married. And you should also know, we were fairly certain he was in and out of psychiatric. facilities. So, you see, we felt we had to keep our distance. We weren't intentionally unkind. Of course, I understand. Can you tell me more about the kinds of things he sculpted?

He mainly sculpted busts. Out of what material? Oh, I couldn't say. All right. Now, Ethel, do you have any idea where Erwin might be at this time? I'm sorry to say I don't. He's quite the vagrant. He moved around a lot before he ever came to New York, and I believe he even stayed in a shanty town for a spell. Sad, really, but he could be anywhere. Owens reeled in his seat. During his conversation with Ethel, it dawned on him that for the past week, NYPD had focused on Ronnie's life in Joseph's involvement. They failed to realize that Ethel was the center of this case. Owens likely also recalled the theories circulating through the station

that the car of soap chunks found at the scene resembled a Gettian woman's face. Police might have given the killer enough time to leave the city, but they couldn't risk him getting away with triple homicide or killing again. The clock was ticking, and they had to find Bobby Irwin. Thanks again for tuning into solved murders. We'll be back next Wednesday, part two of the Easter Sunday killings and the hunt for a mad artist. For more information on this case, amongst the many sources we used,

we found the mad sculptor, the maniac, the model, and the murder that shook the nation by Harold Schechter extremely helpful to our research. You can find all episodes of solved murders and all other Spotify originals from Parcast for free on Spotify. We'll see you next time. If we live till next time. Solve Murder's True Crime Mysteries is a Spotify original from Parcast. It is executive produced by Max Cutler.

Sound designed by Michael Langsner, with production assistance by Ron Shapiro, Trent Williamson, Carly Madden, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of Solve Murders is written by Daniel William Gonzalez, with writing assistance by Sarah Batchelor and Giles Hofsef. Fact-checking by Lori Sieg. and research by Mickey Taylor. The amazing cast of voice actors

includes Tom Bauer, Joe Hernandez, Drew Lawn, Brian Kim McCormick, Melissa Medina, and Jen Wong. Solve Murders, Stars Wendy McKenzie and Carter Roy. Werewolves, Witches, and Arthur Conan Doyle? Oh, my! Sounds like fascinating topics to discuss on our new show, rituals, Christine. You know what, M? It sure does. Every Monday on rituals, join us as we explore

the evolution of spiritualism and the occult through stories, practices, and the impact on modern culture. If you've heard our podcast and that's why we drink, this is the perfect pairing for you. And if you haven't, go give us a try. Follow our Spotify original from Parcast, Rituals. Listen free only on Spotify.