Prof G Markets - Prof G Markets: How Scott Navigates Money with His Family

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Scott explains how he approaches money with his partner, his parents, and his children. He gives advice for having difficult conversations about economic hardship. Ed asks for advice around saving money to take care of his family in the future. Scott also breaks down how he tries to connect money with effort when talking about wealth with his kids. Finally, he shares the one thing he hopes his kids will understand about money when he’s gone.  Order "The Algebra of Wealth," out now Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Follow Scott on Instagram Follow Ed on Instagram and X Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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has said that pets should not replace children. I guess he doesn't want priests practicing bestiality. Welcome to Prop G Markets, Ed. What's going on? Is that too much, Ed? Is that too much? On point, as always. There you go. There you go. What was my other pet joke? Oh, supposedly one-third of people let their pets sleep in their bed with them, so I gave it a try and the goldfish died. That's good too, right? That's good. If I could just weave in goldfish and pedophilia, I could have it all. I could have it all. Welcome to Prop G Markets. Ed, what is going on today? We're going to talk about money as always, but this time we're going to focus on a specific topic that we get a lot of questions about, and that is how to deal with money when it comes to family. So I'm going to run through a series of questions about how

you think about money when it comes to your own family, and hopefully we'll get some advice for our listeners. Does that sound good? Sounds good. So you have a famous piece of advice, which is that the most important financial decision you'll make is who you partner with. So I just want to focus on partners for the beginning of this. How did you know that you and your partner were aligned financially? Well, it's not easy to sort of have that conversation with your young because you're not entirely sure you understand each of your approach to spending.

You get a sense for it. A lot of it just comes down to what sort of turns you on. I've always been very attracted to women who were exceptionally competent. My current partner worked at Goldman Sachs, has an MBA, has always made a lot of money. And I just find that sexy, not so much that they make money, which is obviously very helpful. Two incomes are just so powerful relative to one. But I've always just been drawn to people who are really competent. My girlfriend before her was a surgeon. And my first wife also had an MBA and was the COO of a retailer. So that shit just works for me. And I think it's an individual thing. I got very lucky that way. And that is I chose partners who were really financially viable, not because I was

thinking about money, but because I just personally find that very attractive. And do you have conversations with your, have you always had conversations with your partners about money and about your financial goals? Yeah. Although in the beginning, we didn't really have a lot of conversations. It was just with my first wife, it was just like we were both working so hard and she had sort of these Midwestern values. I've always spent more than my partners.

I've always, I don't know if it was purposeful, but I've always found partners that are fairly, not frugal, but really responsible with money. And I'm always the one like, no, let's buy the Range Rover. You only live once. And I've never gone into debt, but I've always been a spender. And usually my partner is sort of more of a saver or not even

a saver, but less of a risk taker. If it were up to my partner, we would have Krugerrands buried in the backyard and maybe buying like risk for her is buying Deutsche Bonds that yield one and a half percent. And I'm like, no, it's this great new technology that sends pets into space. It's a no-brainer. What I will say is, and I think this is really important, the approach I have tried to take, and this is a story of privilege because I've always had more money or almost always made more money than I was spending. One of the really wonderful things I really value about my relationship is that I encourage my wife to spend money. I want her to enjoy the money. I want her to live life. And I'm

the one, she'll call me and say, hey, I'm looking at this. And she calls me because she doesn't like to buy expensive things for herself. And she knows I'm going to say, yes, go for it. I'm a conduit for happiness. And that is I'm never that happy myself. But the way I register joy is when other people are happy. So I've always really enjoyed if money can buy people happiness in my family, I want them to indulge and engage in that. But that is one part of my life that has always been really positive. What's your approach to sharing with your partner? Like sharing assets, to what extent is it two financial lives versus one merged together for you? over 20 years, I didn't really have any money when I met my current partner. I mean, it's really rewarding to build economic security is rewarding, but what's incredibly rewarding is to build it with someone else. It's just fun. You just feel like you're building something. And if you buy your house together and you make money and you can build a nice life together that includes

economic security, it's just so much rewarding than building it on your own. It's almost like it doesn't really happen. It's like, I love investing with other people. That way, if the investment goes well, you both celebrate it, and it's just so much more fun. I've never had separate accounts. Even when I wasn't married to my ex-wife, when we were just living together, I'm like, what's mine is yours. We had one checking account. We didn't track who was spending what. We both had similar approaches to money. We were both responsible. We were both making money. I have never checked my partner's credit card bills. I've never done any of that. And again, a lot of that is because we say the majority of divorces are a make the economic decision together in a way. I mean, where's your line on when you got to call the partner? Yeah, the dynamic is a little unusual there because here's the thing. She doesn't need to call me.

She doesn't need my permission. What she is doing is she wants me to validate it because she has trouble spending that kind of money on herself. And she knows, she knows what I'm going to say, which is the following. You should absolutely buy it. Oh my God, $38,000 for a pair of antique earrings. That is such a great value. It would be economically irresponsible of you not to buy it. For the well-being of our family, I need you to buy those earrings. She knows I'm going to say something similar to that. And it makes her feel better about buying it. Again, see above, very privileged. Well, let's throw out a hypothetical for you then. You want to buy a car,

not a crazy sports car, but a car. Is that a shared decision? No, if it's something over a few hundred thousand, we're renovating a house and she'll talk to me about decisions and what it's going to cost. And, you know, so we share a discussion and it's not permission, but it's joint decision making to try and make sure wisdom of crowds around spending big ticket purchases, you know, buying a house or renovating a house or big purchases. We talk about that stuff. I mean, I make big investment decisions that are multimillion dollar decisions without her permission. What we do on money though, it's because I manage the investments,

is that on a regular basis, I tell her where we are. And that is I'll sit down with her probably every three or it's probably every six months and I'll say, this is how much money we have. I have like, I don't know, 25 investments. And I'll say, this is how they're all doing. And I try to give it to her very sober and very straight. Last week, I think I told you two weeks ago, I had an investment, a $5 million investment go to zero. And the next day I just said, oh, FYI, do you remember that healthcare text messaging company? I'm like, it went to zero. And immediately she said, that's it, no more sex for you for the rest of the year, Mr. fucking idiot ruining our economic security. But I think what strains relationships is

obviously economics, but I think what ruins them is surprises. And so I always want my partner to know where we are economically. And look, I'm good at money. And so she outsources that part of our life to me, and pretty much she does almost everything else. But around investments and maintaining kind of top-line wealth and wealth decisions, I make those decisions. But on the big ones, I check in with her. This is what I'm thinking. This is what we're investing in. And I just want her to know what's going on. I don't want her to ever feel surprised. I don't want her to feel like she's reading the markets are up 30%, but our wealth got cut because of our investments are down. I never want her to be surprised. So I tell her exactly how it is. And I always, I would say, have a little bit of a, I kind of give it to her a little bit,

I don't know, worse than what it is, but I'm very quick to tell her about the losses and not as quick to tell her about the wins. I mean, I eventually do, but the key is you never want your partner to be surprised about this. I mean, losing money is bad. What's worse is surprises. Yeah, it sounds like you don't have much stress around the economics in your relationship. One, because you have the money. I think that's an important point.

But two, it sounds like there's just generally a high level of trust. So you don't have to be tracking stuff because you just trust that the other person is going to make the right decision. Would you say that's sort of the key? potential partner's approach to money is. A, if and what will their contribution be on both sides? What economic weight class do you expect to be in? Who's responsible for maintaining that economic weight class? And what is your approach, each of your approach to spending? Just some very basic general questions, ask yourself and each other, and also have an honest talk about, all right, we live in Chicago. This is probably what it's going to cost to live. This is how much money I'm going to make. How much money do you think you're going to make? Are you planning to make money? Because you just need to get some sort of alignment. And then I think where you need real alignment with your partner in a very open

conversation is when things go awry. When you have economic stress, maybe it's a healthcare cost or one of your parents gets sick and you have to come up with money, one of you gets laid off, whatever it might be, but you end up with economic hardship, then you need to really be transparent and sit down and get alignment and have some difficult conversations around what's required to rebuild as a team. We'll be right back. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night.

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Do you think people should feel a responsibility to provide for their parents once they start making money? I don't know if they should. He grew up in Scotland during the depression, in an era where if you didn't have money, you could literally starve. And he just has such an unhealthy relationship to money. And it was always a constant source of stress for him, his approach to it. It scarred me. If I can't pay for everyone when I go out, I won't go out. When I was younger, if I couldn't pay for everybody when I go out, I won't go out. When I was younger, if I couldn't pay for everybody, not that I was expected to, but my dad was so cheap that I went the other way. And I was one, I just wouldn't go out unless I felt like I could pay

for everybody. Anyways, that's a different talk show, but I take care of my dad financially now. It cost me a shit ton of money. I spent about, I think about $250,000 or $300,000 post-tax taking care of my father, having him in a home, having a full-time health aid. I helped out my mom, but I was in a position to, and it felt really nice. It felt really good to be able to do that. So what I would say is that hopefully you have siblings. Hopefully your parents are economically responsible and saved enough money. But yeah, I think the definition of family is you take an emotionally and financially invested, you're invested in their success and their well. And so ideally you and your siblings get together and figure out a way that your parents are comfortable. What's been really wonderful in terms of like, for example, with my father's, there's different ways to contribute.

My father's kind of needed a lot of care or financial care over the last 10 years as he's gotten older and divorced for his fourth time. I have the money to do it, but my sister handles all of the logistics and hiring and firing of the nurses and negotiating with the facility he's at. And to be honest, my part's the easy part. I pay for it all because I make more money than my sister, but I see that as the easy part. She has to get on the phone with these folks and figure out if they're going to have a full-time nurse, what the hours are. It's been a great

partnership. I'm really grateful that me and my sister are really aligned around this. But yeah, every family's different, but if you're in a position to help your parents, why wouldn't you? It feels good. It feels right. It feels natural. Do you take care of your sister financially? No, I don't take care of her. Her and her husband are really successful professionally. What I do is just because it's fun is occasionally I help out with things like the kids' school or something like that. More just because it makes me feel good, but they don't really need it. But it's something I really enjoy and I want a really nice relationship with my niece and nephew. And I just love the idea of them finding out at some point that, you know, I helped out with their school.

I do it just as a means of hoping that it'll strengthen my relationship with them when they're adults. Do you think people should kind of factor that in when it comes to economic planning? I mean, you talked about planning with your partner. How much do we intend to make? What are our goals? Do you think people should be thinking, and this is how much I want to be providing for my family? This is how much I want to have stowed away to take care of my parents when they're old, et cetera? No, I think that because at the end of the day, your ability to do that is going to be based on how much money you have. And so I think you should

just be focused on what we talk about, the algebra of wealth, finding something you're good at, doubling down on it, becoming great at it, which will give you economic currency in the marketplace, trying to spend less than you make, invest that money, develop an army of capital you can deploy, recognize time's going to go faster than you think, and then diversify, such that you're in a position to be generous with your family and extended family. So you need to affix your own oxygen mask first. And when you're young, your parents probably aren't sick and don't need help. You don't have kids to take care of. That's the time to develop that savings muscle and that professional currency and put yourself on a path to financial security. Let me flip the question back to you, Ed. You have

parents. You're making good money, but you're not wealthy. What's your approach and you're thinking around helping out your parents and your approach to saving for that? Is that something you're actively thinking about? Both of my parents are fine. So I don't, I don't, I'm not worried about them from that aspect. But I think the thing that you mentioned with your sister, the fact that your sister is doing the hard work, getting on the phone, figuring out where they should be staying, how to take care of them. Those are things that I have been thinking about progressively a little bit more. I mean, my granddad is very sick at the moment. I'm about to go visit him this weekend. And I've been seeing

this play out in real time of just the responsibility of everyone. It suddenly kicks in at that point when you suddenly realize that life is finite and everyone suddenly gets their act together and starts thinking, okay, how do I pay it back? And I guess I just asked the economic planning question because I'm only just now thinking of that. I'm only now seeing it because I see death around the corner. And now I'm thinking, oh, should I get my act together right now? I'm not necessarily sure how I can. When you say act together, what do you mean? Do I need to be planning such that I can provide for my parents? Do I need to be making sure that I'm taking care of them too? Which, you know, my parents have always taken care of me. So I guess there's a moment where you start thinking

that the script should be flipped. It feels like for you, when your mom got really sick, that was that moment. Yeah. And it happened at about exactly your age. My mom first got diagnosed with cancer when she, when I was exactly your age. And it was a real wake-up call for me because we had economic stress and I couldn't take care of her batteries of chemo and a mastectomy. And she was at home and called me, and I had to rush home. And it was just such an ugly scene that I walked into. And I started calling around to get a nurse, and nurses were $35 an hour, and we didn't have that money. And I just didn't know what to do. But you're thinking about it exactly the right way. You're thinking, A, you're just thinking about it, but the way you address that is that you're thinking about it exactly the right way. You're thinking, Hey, you're just thinking about it.

But the way you address that is that you're smart and you're doing, you're doing all the right things. You're working hard. I get the sense you're saving. You're trying to invest. Most people don't invest at your age and you're working hard and trying to establish professional relevance. So that, you know, quite frankly, with your parents, money kind of solves not all problems, but most of them.

If you have enough money, as long as one, do you have siblings? You have siblings, right? I have two sisters. Between the three of you, especially if you have a good relationship with them and they're like-minded and generous around and feel obligated to pitch in and help with your parents, one of you might be wealthier than the other two and be able to help more with money. One might have a better relationship and be able to spend more time with your parents because they just get along with them better or have more time. And one might hopefully have their shit together logistically and be able to kind of handle and negotiate stuff. There's the money part, but the thing that's, I think, been rougher that my sisters had to deal with is there's just so many decisions to be made every day. And not only that, sometimes your parents aren't cooperating,

right? They don't want to leave their house and move into an assisted living facility. My dad starts leaving the facility and taking walks and no one knows where he is. And I have to call him and try and get through to him and tell him he's not allowed to leave the facility. I mean, and meanwhile, he thinks I'm his brother, not his son. So this stuff gets complicated fast, but I literally don't know what people do that don't have a lot of money. I'm spending so much money on my dad right now, and it's not a lot of money for me, but it's real money. I don't know what people do that aren't wealthy. Or alone. That's been my big observation watching my granddad is, oh my God, if this guy didn't have family, because that's all you got at the end. It's not going to be your friends. It's going to be your family. If he didn't have family, if he didn't have children and grandchildren around, it would be miserable. I had what I thought was one of the most stark, depressing moments.

You know, when my mom got sick, I was 26. So my life up until that point had mostly, you know, I'd just gotten out of college grad school. So it's mostly UCLA games, fraternity parties, smoking too much pod, watching Planet of the Apes over and over. And then all of a sudden, my mom got sick and everything just shit got real. And I remember my mom had to go into this healthcare facility. She was too sick to be at home without care, but she wasn't sick enough to be in the hospital. And she was with Kaiser and Kaiser is basically very cost conscious. So like we don't want her in the hospital. It's too expensive to keep her in the hospital. So she went to, I don't even know what they call it like this, facility. And it was literally the place where people who have no money and no one who loves them go. And I remember walking into her room and she was in this room with two cots and there were these bad springs that squeaked when she sat up and down. And they had these old Moscow-like arms, metal arms with a TV. And the woman next to her had the TV turned up so loud because she couldn't hear it. And she had the arm extended such that this bad old 70s TV,

black and white, was literally in front of her face. And she just kept hitting it. And the whole place stank of urine. And there were a bunch of people, old people who looked like they were on death's doorstep, just sitting asleep, semi-conscious in their wheelchairs in the hallway. But I remember walking in there and thinking, this is where people in America end up that don't have any money and don't have anyone that loves them that is still alive. And it was such a stark reminder that in America, one, you want to have money, and two, you really want to invest in relationships such that someone is there to look out for you. Because, I mean, if you end up broken alone in America, God, it's fucking ugly. 100%.

On that note, there we go. There we go. Who's buying Supreme? And are they overpaying? Oh, my God. Broken alone. On today's Roth G Markets, what's it like to be broke with no one who loves you? Here's a message from BetterHelp.

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In, knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. We're back with Profiteer Markets. Do you talk about money with your kids? A little bit, not a lot. We try to connect money to effort. And what's interesting is I think they've kind of figured it out on their own. I don't know. I don't know how professionally confident they're going to be

or how much money they make, but they're not crazy spenders. My older one, it kind of bums me out. So it's just the worst fucking thing in the world that they all have this haircut that makes them look like an alpaca. And I literally can't handle it. I love that. I want to drug them and cut their hair. You know, my boys are so beautiful. They're so handsome, and I know exactly the haircut I want for them, and they show up looking like this. It's awful.

They look like a farm animal. It's overgrown hair. It's just, anyway. But my oldest, so I was really excited. My oldest is going back you know he goes i want to take him out and get him some really cool clothes and i'm trying to figure out what the cool brands are i'm like let's go we went to sunspiel i'm like i'll get you school and i bought i there was this cool hoodie and it was like two or three hundred bucks he's like i'm not i'm not

gonna spend that much i'm like yeah you're not gonna spend that much but i'll buy it for you he's like no no i don't i don't i don't want you but he can's like his mom. He doesn't like to spend money, even when it's my money. And of course, the other brother pops up and is like, I want it. Can I have two? Can I have his? So somehow they both ended up in different places. It's like when Michelle Obama said, the kids just come to you. You like to think you're an engineer?

You're not. And so I'd like to think we're doing a good job of connecting them to money. But I think what's strange is they don't have a sense for how much money we have. And what I try to do, I'm thinking about taking them into Africa with Scott Harrison from Charity Water. I just need them to see how not most people, but some people live and recognize that a lot of what their success and privilege is not their fault and that the majority of people in this world do not get to live like they live. And I don't blame them for not understanding that because they've been sheltered from it, but that's one thing we want to do. But they're pretty good around, they're pretty good, right? My youngest, I'm working with my youngest on the sneaker business using AI around when to bid on drops for shoes and what the resale value is. And we're trying to set up a site on Shopify. And every week I lose money on it, but he sort of gets it.

He understands, okay, buy a shoe for 200 bucks and try and sell it for 300. And he's thinking about what's the best way to drop ship for the lowest money, but it has good customer service because he wants to get good reviews. And so that's great. He's going to be more the entrepreneur. I think my older one is much more conservative, doesn't like to spend money. I think he'll end up being a professional. But we don't talk, like I've never told them how much money we have

or anything like that. But so far I've been really lucky. They're not, I mean, granted, they're just about to turn 14 and 17. So they're not crazy spenders. They just don't spend a lot. Do they know you're rich? Yeah, there's no way not to figure it out. I mean, we fly private.

You know, they don't. Words out. Words out that we have money. And they're kind of fascinated. My youngest is fascinated by money. We went to the finals of the world, you know, the finals of the Euros. And he said, how much were these tickets? I'm like, I'm not going to tell you. He wants to know. And he's looking at my phone and he wants to know how much the tickets were. That's an interesting one. Why do you not want to tell them how rich you are? I mean, they know that you're rich, but you don't want them to know how rich and you don't really spending 10,000 pounds on a soccer game, so we can go. I feel like that's going to disconnect them from the value of money at that age. So how do you teach them the value? I mean, the Africa idea is one.

Is there anything else you do to kind of be like, hey, this isn't normal? It's weird. I think they've sort of made the connection a little bit on their own because I don't think it's been great parenting. I had this really wonderful moment with my youngest. He has a friend from school who doesn't have a lot of money and his friend accidentally poured milk or spilled milk on his headphones and they were ruined. And so he came to me and he said, dad, I want to buy my friend a pair of the AirPod Maxes that can't go over your ears. And he said, if I put in $100, will you give me $200? He's a super nice kid and he doesn't have a lot of money.

And I was just so moved by that. I thought that's exactly the kind of approach to money I want my kids to have. And I said, of course. And anytime you want to give money away or do something for someone else, I'll contribute. That was really nice. But that, I don't know where they learned it. They didn't learn it from me, I don't think. I don't know. So, I mean, here's the thing, Ed. You do your best, but parents are under the delusion that we're engineers. We're shepherds. We get to choose where the sheep grazes, what the food it eats. Maybe we can point it in the right direction. But be clear, the sheep comes to you.

And I think, I hope what they see is that their mom works hard and is really responsible with money, that I work hard. And they see how committed we are to our professions. They see that we're generous with our money. So I hope that they inherit that. And they also see that we enjoy it. I hope they inherit that. I hope my oldest starts spending. I'm worried my oldest isn't going to want to spend any money and not enjoy it. But I would say we're just kind of letting it happen, which may not be the right approach.

My kids talk a lot or ask a lot of questions now about money. They're very interested in it, especially my youngest. He asks about stocks, how stock prices are decided. Yeah, I mean, their dad just wrote a book called The Algebra of Wealth. I'd be shocked if they didn't. stops me on the street, they're like, why do they know you again? They are so befuddled that anyone would find me interesting at all. They're like, what? Why did this person say hi to you? What do you do again? They just don't get it. By the way, the opening note of that book is a message to them and you say, I hope you'll read this. You think they'll ever read it? Oh, yeah. When I'm gone, maybe hopefully before I'm gone, but definitely when I'm gone, I can't imagine. I've invested, I'd like to think, so much time and love in my kids that they're going to love me. You're banking on you're going to get a fraction of that back.

And I'd like to think they'll be interested enough in me to read my books. I mean, let me be really disappointed if they didn't at some point. So they will, they're going to be curious. So yeah, I think so. I hope so at least. Have you thought more about estate planning and inheritance? Yeah, I think about it a lot because now that we have real money, you have to think about it and be smart about it. So we work with our folks. Goldman manages our money. I have a lawyer. I have a tax lawyer. And they set up a trust. We're trying to figure out what to put into the trust, how to take advantage of the limits on trust, figure out if Biden is going to lower the trust limit.

You know, there's all this – it's a lot of tax planning. The tax code is so complicated that – and this is an advantage for wealthy people because you can kind of weaponize it and maneuver through it if you're smart. You want to run boat races at night if you have GPS. And so the more complicated you make the race, the more advantage sheets to people who can afford the technology, in this me, and women usually live seven years longer. So she's going to be around about 22 years longer. But no, I'm trying to set up. What I am thinking about is putting stuff in assets that will, like apartments, rental apartments that will spin off income, because I'm turning into that, I hate to say it, person thinking about, so my kids have enough money that they're never broke. And my kid isn't going to come run Prop G Media. My kid isn't going to take one of my analytics companies and be the CEO there.

But maybe if one of my kids doesn't have their own professional trajectory, I like the idea that maybe they could manage some apartment buildings. And that's probably the wrong way to think about it. But I am thinking about intergenerational wealth. But more than anything, what I'm spending the most time on is just making sure that my partner's really comfortable after I'm gone. This is kind of a turnaround from what you've said in the post, which is, I think you've said you don't want to leave anything to your kids. Well, that's mostly joking to justify my out-of-control spending. Buffett summarized it perfectly. I want my kids to have enough money so they can do anything, but not enough money so they can do

nothing. So I'll set up a trust for them. My partner, assuming she lives a quarter century longer than me, is going to have to figure it out, but I'm putting in place the mechanics of it such that after she's gone, they'll get some money when they turn 21. We're going to give most of it away, but we'll leave enough for them such that they can afford a house, any education they want, and maybe a little bit more. And have access to a little of it at 25, 35, and then access to all of it. But, you know, I think about this a lot. It's a huge issue for wealthy people because you don't want indulgent jerks. And also a huge motivator for me was the

fear of like, if I didn't make money, I wasn't going to have any. That's incredibly motivating. And you worry about taking away that motivation. But I'm not one of those people. It's really easy to say, yeah, once they're through college, that's it. They're on their own. Yeah, I never find any parent does that. None of my friends have done that, have cut off their kids, none of them. I have really good friends. My really good friends, Greg and Cindy, through college and you get a certain kind of allowance, but at some point you're on your own. I don't know if I'll have that discipline. I don't know. I haven't fully figured it out yet. We'll just end with this last question. If there's one thing you want your children to understand about money once you die, what would it be? That it's really important, but it's a means. It's meaningful, but what's profound is that money is nothing but something that should enable you to have an absence of stress

that you can focus on relationships. That you need to be professionally competent, you need to be self-sufficient. Making money is a lot of fun, but it's just a means to the ends. And the ends is deep and meaningful relationships and that money can be a lubricant for that and provide an absence of stress in a series of experiences that make you feel closer to the people you love and help you take care of them this episode was produced by

claire miller and engineered by benjamin spencer our associate producer is allison weiss our executive producer is katherine dillon Our executive producer is Catherine Dillon. Mia Silverio is our research lead, and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to Profit Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We'll be back with a fresh take on markets on Thursday. You help me In kind

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