Prof G Markets - Scott Galloway On Money, Happiness, And The Search For Enough

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Scott Galloway and Ed Elson discuss how Scott’s relationship with money has evolved over the course of his life. They unpack the exact moment that Scott became obsessed with money, how it became an addictive substance, and why he still has fears of going broke. He ends with advice on how to get through financial hardships. Subscribe to the Prof G Markets Youtube Channel  Check out our latest Prof G Markets newsletter Follow Prof G Markets on Instagram Follow Ed on Instagram, X and Substack Follow Scott on Instagram Send us your questions or comments by emailing [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Today's number 47. That's the percentage of sports fans who would find a way to attend a championship event for their favorite team, no matter the cost. Ed, speaking of recreation, I can no longer take my dog to the duck pond as he keeps getting attacked because he's pure bread.

You don't get it. Pure bread? Pure bread. Okay. I got a better one. I just broke up with my... You've got to change the emphasis. That's not good.

The emphasis is. I didn't tell it well. Okay, Louis C.K. See how you do. Anyways, the next one. I just broke up with my mathematician girlfriend. She was obsessed with an ex. That's actually pretty good. Ed, are you still down?

Are you still down? All right, I know it'll do. I'm good. I'll cheer you up. What do you call a beehive without an exit? What's that? Unbelievable. You made me pretty happy.

You made my... He's made me pretty happy. What are we doing today, Ed? We got a very special episode today, Scott, and I'm going to launch us right into it here. This show is all about money. We talk about it every day. We think about it all day long, Scott especially.

And the markets at their core are about the relentless pursuit of money. But by the time this episode aired, Scott and I will be coming back from vacation. So before we head out, we are pausing to think about what this money actually does for us. How does our relationship to money change over time? And will it ever be enough? Maybe a bit more of a personal episode, Scott.

We haven't done one of these in a while. More of a money therapy episode. Does that all sound good to you? Yeah, that sounds really good. Permission to ask personal questions. Well, you know, I don't feel comfortable talking about myself. but I'll try and put that aside. Let's roll.

Well, we're going to start with, let's do it. So we're going to start with a clip that went viral on Twitter, a clip of you. And you went on this show My First Million, which is a great podcast, Sam Por and Shanpuri. And they asked you about your relationship with money and this idea of, is it ever enough? And how much do you need actually to be happy to feel economically secure? and this was your response that got a lot of support, but also a lot of hate, pissed a lot of people off. I've been very open about this. I think not talking about your money is an attempt to keep middle and lower income homes down. Rich people talk about money to each other all the time. I spend $300,000 to $400,000 a month.

So if you take that at $5 million times $25, I need $125 million to be economically secure. And by the way, when I was younger, I thought if I ever have a million dollars, I'm done. I used to think, like, in my 20s, if I could ever save a million dollars, I'm done. I'm going to start writing scripts for Tom Cruise films and just do whatever I want. So that was the clip that went viral. People were shocked to hear about your burn. What do you think about that statement? And how do you think about the question of, is this ever enough?

So I haven't been on Twitter in four years, but I'm going to guess if it was about me on Twitter, people were just super supportive and really think I'm a great guy. Some did. Some did. Kara called me over the weekend and she forwarded me, like, someone had said something mean about me on Twitter. And I'm like, I've met on Twitter in four years, and she's like, that's probably a good idea. My understanding is I just get mauled on Twitter. Anyways, by the way, folks, just a life hack.

The most accretive thing you can do for your mental health is to not go on Twitter. Look, I grew up without a lot of money. The biggest source of stress in my life wasn't that my dad wasn't around. Wasn't that my mom, you know, the biggest source of stress in my life was easy. When my mom got upset, it was just me and her in the household, and there was no, we were all upset. The household came down. And the biggest source of stress in our life was not that we were poor, but, but my mom was, money was an issue. It made regular things harder. I described my household growing up

affectionately as upper, lower, middle class. My mom was a secretary. We were never hungry. It wasn't a sob story. I actually think it was easier to be in our economic weight class back then than it is now. I went to a decent school. I went to public schools all the way through graduate school. We took vacations every once in a while. My mom had a decent car, not a nice car, but a decent car. So, you know, it's not a sob story, but the biggest source of stress in my life until, even through college, was money. I went to college. Every summer, I had to make and save $3,000 or I wasn't enrolling again. I couldn't return in the fall. And it was just, quite frankly, it was just stressful. And also, I discovered, you know, I thought early

on, I want to, A, take care of my mom, and B, I want to be more attractive to women. And that's, I think, a natural inclination that a lot of young men feel. They have. They have. have very paternal protective feelings about the woman who raised them. I wanted to take care of my mom. By this time, my mom had been diagnosed with cancer several times and couldn't work, and money was an issue. And so I was very motivated by money. And then when I got to a certain point, I think a lot about money and happiness. I recognized in 2017 when I sold L2, and by most metrics I was done, I think I told you this, I was planning to raise more capital because I wanted to be a billionaire. I thought, Scott Galloway billionaire just has a really nice sound to it. And I read a lot about

happiness and Daniel Kahneman, one of my intellectual role models, has done this great work on the relationship between money and happiness. And to summarize, there is a correlation between money and happiness, but only to a certain point, and then it tops out. And I had something that happens to a lot of men in the early 50s, and that is a couple of my friends died that shouldn't have. And that is these weird genetic time bombs go off, and people who are otherwise healthy have something. And thing that just takes them down. One, it was this very aggressive form of leukemia. The other was pancreatic cancer. And these were two guys that you just wouldn't have ever guessed would be sick. They were in shape, young guys with good nutrition. Anyway, so that gave me pause, and I thought,

all right, I have enough money to live well. So I'm going to stop, I'm going to try and get off this economic hamster wheel. I've been able to do that somewhat. I can only modulate it, and I get rid of it because I still have real financial insecurities. But what I decided to do was I was going to do one or two things with any incremental income above my number, and which I hit in 2017. I was either going to spend it. I think in a capitalist society, you can do amazing things. Another life hack is spend money on experiences, not things. People overestimate the happiness they're going to get from things. They underestimate the happiness they're going to get from experiences. I don't own a car. I have a couple panorize, but I don't spend a lot of money on clothes. I really don't spend that much money on things. I spend a shit ton of money on experiences. So of that three or $400,000 a month I spend, 150 of it is on a private plane, which gives me the ability to do things on a moment's notice and travel comfortably and professionally do things that give me a lot of leverage, lowers my anxiety on a day when I'm having dinner with Mike. I mean, I realize this is a story of privilege, but I spend a shit ton of money and I also each year give away. I try and give away as much as I've spent, not because I think of myself as this. especially philanthropic, but I get a lot of psychic reward from it. It makes me feel strong. It makes

me feel masculine. I feel like I'm nodding to many of the people and things that help me get where I am, whether it's the University of California, whether it's investing in programs for immigrants or financially. It just makes me feel good. But I have no desire to build a dynasty and pass on hundreds of millions of dollars to my kids. I want to have a great time with my friends and family. I'm going to feel like I'm giving back to society, and I'm very open about the amount of money I spend. And I do think there's something, I think hoarding is a virus, I think above a certain level. And again, I recognize this is, you know, isn't that a great problem? Isn't it nice to be you, Scott? But I am in this position, and my attitude is, I'm either going to put the money back into the

economy and have a shit ton of fun doing it, or I'm going to give it away. I have, I think it's ridiculous that people aggregate billions of dollars in wealth. I don't think you're adding any value. I think your kids are not going to be any happier if they inherit $3 million versus $3 billion. I think there is something to the fact that if you work hard, you want your kids to be able to afford a house and health care. I get it. I know a lot of very rich kids. I don't think they're any less happy than non-rich kids, but I don't think they're any happier. So I'm very much on board with spending a shit ton of money, and I'm very open about it and also giving a lot of money away. But I think at a certain point, you need to try and get

off that money hamster wheel and ask yourself, all right, money helps me write chapters, new chapters. It helps current chapters burn brighter, but it's not your story. And you need to find another sense of purpose. But I still struggle. I still have money anxiety. And it's increased recently, but kind of a different dimension. But my attitude is if you're blessed with the right timing, the right skills, and growing up in a place like America that gave disproportionate advantage to people who looks, melt and felt like me, you have, one, the opportunity to do amazing things, and two, the obligation to try and, you know, invest in things that ensure those same ladders are present for other people. But I think a lot about money. I hate it when people, when these

fucking VCs say, oh, I never really thought about money, I just thought about outcome. Those guys are obsessed with money. And it's been a sort of I don't want to call it trauma, but I have body dysmorphia. I'm constantly working out, and when I look in the mirror, I'm 6-2190. When I look in the mirror, I think I look emaciated. Because growing up, I was so painfully thin that it kind of traumatized me. It made me feel less attractive, less weak, more vulnerable. So now I can never be strong enough or big enough. And I look in the mirror and think, okay, I look terrible and skinny and scrawny. And I know intellectually, that's not the case, but I have that trauma and it still impacts me. me now. I had, I don't want to call it trauma, but a lot of the challenges, a lot of American households face around money. So when I got to having money, I really liked it, and I kept going. And I still keep going, but I have tried to modulate it by either spending it, putting back into the economy and enjoying it or giving it away. Anyway, I'm sounding defensive. I think something that people think when they, something that people thought when they saw that

clip and they heard how much you're spending a month. The reaction is you're not off the hamster wheel. The reaction is you are spending the more wealth you have accumulated, the more you have roped yourself into spending. And I'd be curious to hear if that's how you feel about it, because I think, I mean, when you, I mean, just reacting to that clip, it's like, oh, wow, I guess you could spend money on private travel because I guess that is great. I guess that is nice. And it starts getting you into a space where you're kind of like, what other things are there out there? And how else can I make my life better? And what more things and what more comfort can money buy? And so how do you think about it from that perspective? Because I think a lot of people would, based on that clip, assume that you have not gotten off the hamster wheel. Or maybe, that's what you're saying. I think it's an accurate. I think everyone has a certain level of dysfunction and addiction.

Yeah. I have a lot of friends who are amazing friends, really good professionally, good with money, good sons. And they pour all of their bad judgment into the relationships. They've just picked the worst fucking partners. I'm like, how could someone so smart be so fucking stupid? it. I know people who have amazing friendships, smart, well-read, great relationship with their spouse, such good judgment, and professionally, they're just a fucking basket case. I think everybody has a

certain amount of dysfunction and poor judgment. It's where you put it. And also everyone has a certain amount of addiction. I don't care if you're addicted to the affirmation of others, to trans fats, to sugar, to cocaine, or whatever it is. I think, addiction is a function of very healthy instincts, right? You get addicted to eating too much because for most of our species' time on this planet, if you found food in front of you, you ate at all because you didn't know when you were going to find food again, especially sugary, salty food.

So I think we all have a certain level of addiction. It might be online shopping, whatever it is. I try to be very cognizant of my addictions. I have two addictions. I'll be curious to put it back to you. One, I'm addicted to the affirmation of others. And I think that's natural. Until about 100 years ago, if you were shamed and expunged or expelled from the community,

within three days you were going to starve or beaten by a bear. So fear of shaming is really, really powerful. So when I get shamed or shit posted online, it used to bother me a lot. But I still put out tweets and content hoping that strangers will like me. And that's kind of pathetic at the age of something. I'd like to think a lot of the content I put out there I'm doing for the right reasons so I can advance the conversation and help others. But honestly, a lot of it is I think, oh, my audience and followers are just going to love this and think I'm a neat guy, right? Or I put out pictures of me and my kids because I know my kids are much better looking and cuter than me or me and my dogs.

And I think it makes me more likable. I want to be liked by strangers, which is fucking pathetic. But I understand why I have that need, why I have that addiction. and sometimes it takes me out of my head, out of my presence with the people I love, which is the definition of addiction, and that is you continue to engage in something despite it having negative ramifications on the rest of your life. My second addiction is money. You know, you know this at Prop G.

I sit down with the entire team and I take them through financials with Catherine. I am trying to create enterprise value. I want to have another exit. Some of it is for the right reasons. I think money is a fantastic arbiter of success and keeps you honest in a business. I also, and I really mean this, I want you and the other 27 people working at Prop G, I want you guys to be on a path or develop economic security faster than your parents. I think that's a, I have those paternal instincts, especially as I get older.

But also a lot of it is I want more money. And I might give it away. I probably will give it away, but I still am on the hamster wheel. I can't get off of it. Now, what helps is that the hamster wheel is a lot more fun for me now. I'm pretty much doing exactly what I want to be doing. That was not true when I was your age. I hated investment banking. Starting companies in the internet was really stressful, but I went for it because I thought, this is the fastest path to economic security. I would say it cost me my first marriage in my hair, and it was worth it. But I worked around the clock. I did have some fun, but I really sacrificed a lot because for me, the goal was economic security. I didn't want to save the whales. I didn't want to be a good person. I didn't want to be a good husband. I wanted to get to economic security

so I could take care of my mom and be more interesting to other dudes and more attractive to strange women. And those flames still burn. I modulated them. I think I've been able to put them in an engine that creates forward progress for people around me, and I'm trying to be more civic-minded now

with my economic security. But I am still, I have not fully stepped off that hamster wheel. I'd be curious to know, A, do you feel like you're on that hamster wheel? You're at the front end. You're on the front nine. And what is the relationship you feel you have with money? What about it as healthy and what do you perceive is unhealthy? Yeah, I think I'm definitely on the hamster wheel. But part of me wants that because I think that it's motivating. Like I know that it would be a financially responsible decision to care a lot about money right now and to care about my professional success. So, So I feel addicted to growing this thing. I feel addicted to making more money. I feel addicted to achieving more success. And part of me is okay with that because I'm like, yeah, that's what I should be doing.

Maybe it's an unhealthy addiction, but also maybe it's healthy because ultimately it's going to lead you to good places. It's going to increase the level of freedom in my life. It's going to increase my outcomes. It's going to increase my level of stability and security. So I think I'm at a place where I'm kind of leaning into it. Like, I don't want it to make my life miserable. And then sometimes I'll have days where I'm like, I'm actually not having a good time right now.

So I'm not doing things right clearly. And something I try to keep track of. Like, if I'm not having a base level of fun, then I'm not, I'm technically not living my life right. I should probably adjust something in some capacity. And I think that's something that we discussed the other words. week. I think that's the importance of vacations as well, and it's why I think it's so important to really try to make sure that you get the very, very best out of your vacations and that you take them. I think all of that stuff is important. But I do think a question that arises in my head

and that probably arises in others is you technically don't really need to make money anymore. like you've you you you're there and so there is a question of what are you actually working like what's the point of working at this point what are you working for and maybe it's related to the fact the thing that you said earlier which is that if you have this feeling that you're on the hamster wheel then maybe you actually just never get off maybe that's hardwired into the way that you think about the world and that you feel that you need to keep doing it. it. But I'd be curious to hear on your end, you know, why continue to work hard? So the number one objective for the first 50-plus years of my life was money, first and

foremost, best at everything, not to try and find a rewarding career, find my passion. It was, how do I take care of my mom? How do I become more interesting and more attractive and have more opportunities and self-worth is a man, which I too, too tightly conflated with economic viability. That has changed for me in the last 10, 15 years. Deciding to teach was not an economic decision. I joined the faculty of NYU 24 years ago because I thought, I'd be good at this and I would really enjoy it. And I made $12,000 my first year.

And for most of my life, I haven't had economic security. Even when I started teaching, I just got divorced. I didn't have much money. I wasn't economically secure. And my new priority is I want to lead a rewarding life and have purpose. And what is that purpose? I want to have a positive influence on the dialogue around young men. I want to help be part of the bleach that stains from the American experience or bleaches from the American experience, the stain that is Donald Trump and corruption.

and what I believe is a lack of democracy, a lack of empathy, a disregard for the greatest innovation in history of the middle class. And if that sounds partisan, I am a partisan. And, you know, I want to highlight what I think are really important issues that are positive for society with the skills I have. I think I'm, you know, I'm not a humble person. I think I'm remarkably talented, but I want to apply those talents to relevance in promoting a healthy dialogue, the results in positive change. And money is still an objective, but it's now secondary. And what, you know, I really enjoy making a lot of money. I enjoy spending it. I also enjoy, and I'm virtue signaling right now, and no one feels this way, I try and overpay everyone at property media.

When I was your age, I was trying to figure out how to pay people the least I could without them leaving because I wanted to create shareholder value that I could then sell and make a lot of money. Now I really enjoy what I, no one, no one ever believes they're overcompetated. But in general, I try to pay people 50% more than their market, at least for the position. And I try to, I'm now very focused on being relevant. I'm very focused on my own mortality and trying to do positive things. My purpose right now, more than anything, that I've identified, and this goes to the question of how do you find purpose, money has freed me up from the anxiety of friction that gets in the way

and the most important thing, and that is really deep and loving relationships with friends and family. And then where I found my purpose was people think, okay, am I getting enough out of this relationship or this thing? That's how I approach stuff. Am I getting more than I'm getting or getting more than I'm giving? Otherwise, I'm not going to do it. And then what I realize is that where you find purpose is you wake up one day and say, I've invested so much in this, I'll never get a return on it, but I still find meaning in it, which means you've found your purpose. The most loyal Americans and patriotic Americans are those that have invested the most, specifically veterans. And what they realize is that feels gives them a sense of purpose. My purpose is simple. I woke up one day and realize I am never going to get anything resembling a positive ROI on the investment, emotional, financial, and psychological investment I've made in my sons. They're just never going to be up at 2 a.m. worried about me. I don't think. There's no way they're ever going to spend as much on my senior home, no matter how nice it is as I've spent on them. And it's given me a sense of purpose. I spend a lot of time thinking about how I create loving, patriotic young men. And, you know, I sit down with them a lot. I talk to them a lot. It's turned me into a better man. I think I'm better to their mother. I try to model good behavior. And I have found my purpose. And quite frankly, I'm a little freaked out right now because I'm dropping my oldest one off at UVA in a couple weeks. I'm like clinging to my 15-year-old. I'm basically following him around right now because all of a sudden I'm freaked out that he's gone. And

I feel like I'm like losing a sense of purpose. But the addiction of money and it being my number one objective, it has squarely become number two or number three. It's still on my mind a lot. I think it's a great scorekeeper for operating a healthy company. I think having a profitable company shows your company is adding value on a lot of dimensions, but it has changed. It used to be my number one objective. It's not. I have been approached, and I'm boasting, but it's true, twice in the last 24 months by enormous

$100 billion plus private equity and alternative investment funds for senior roles there. We're on a risk-adjusted basis. I would make a lot more money than I'm making now. And I don't want to do that because it doesn't sound like fun to me. There's just no way I want to go spend a ton of time talking to a textile manufacturer about being taken private and then spend a time in board meetings trying to turn a $3 billion acquisition and pay down the debt and sell it for $7 billion and take my percentage of the carry. I would make more money doing that, I think.

I like what we do. I think we're having a positive impact. I think it's fun. I really enjoy doing this podcast with you. The people I work with are lovely. Catherine Dillon and I are not just coworkers. We're friends. I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of the people at Prop G are people I've worked with before and are generally like, I think, really pleasant people that are nice to be around. I get huge emotional and psychic reward now, finally, from my professional life. And we make good money, maybe in great money. I could make money more. money elsewhere. But that's not it. I'm going to be dead soon. I have enough money. I want to have a really nice time where I feel like I'm adding value. I have purpose. I enjoy myself. The real litmus test, you were talking about you're having a bad day. When I was your age, on Thursday afternoon, I'd be like fucking yabba dabba do. It's Friday tomorrow. I'm going to, I can't wait to hit the bar. My friends, what am I doing this weekend? Where am I having brunch? How

hot are the people going to be at brunch? How can I find a cooler place for brunch and around with even hotter, more interesting people. And then by Sunday night. You love hot people. And then by Sunday night, by Sunday night, a cloud would come over me. And I'm like, oh, my God, I got to go back into the salt mines Monday morning. And I would literally get physically depressed Sunday night. I know long the biggest victory in my life, and again, this is a blessing.

I think that's how most people unfortunately live their lives. The biggest blessing in my life, I do not discern between my. weekends and my weekdays. I love my weekends. I love my weekdays. I get up. I looked at my last night. I said on my alarm. I got five hours of podcasting today. I'm doing another pod. And then I'm going to the Carbondale rodeo to watch these, I don't say, these little kid rodeos where they put these scared little four-year-olds on a sheep until they get bucked off. It's hilarious. That is a great day. That is a great day. Does it involve a lot of work? Am I stressed a little bit, talking about this stuff, trying to figure out the data on fucking SpaceX and whether it's valued or overvalued? Yeah, but I have, that is the biggest blessing of my life. One, people who love me unconditionally, a lack of economic anxiety for the first time, the last 10 years that I didn't have the first 50 years of my life. And I do not discern the difference between the weekdays and the weekends. When I was your age, I was working my ass off. And by the way, I don't think you are addicted to money at all. I would argue your approach to trying to be very focused on your professional and your economic success. I would argue for a young man in this society and a capitalist society, that's just good common sense. As much as people want to talk about, well, money isn't everything, okay, fine. If you want to live in New York and you want to raise a family and potentially give your partner an opportunity to stay at home, if in fact she wants to during certain periods of child rearing, okay, you need to make a million bucks a year. Fine, if you want to move to St. Louis and have a nice life and attend church and only make 80 or 100 grand a year, which still isn't easy in this economy, have at it. But all this bullshit, all these people who say, you need to work on yourselves and when you invest too much in your career,

and your career doesn't work out. There you are, alone and depressed. Okay, bitch, is that going to pay for your health insurance? So I, and I say to young people, bust a move to some sort of economic security. I'm not saying you've got to go to work for Goldman or you got to kill yourself. Some people live to work as I did, and some people work to live because they want to have more balance in a life. Have at it. But the reality is in a capitalist society, especially as a young man, and I think the advice is the same for young women. I think young women need to be economically secure so they don't have to be economically indentured to some douchebag they don't want to live with. But my advice to young people, yeah, bust a move towards economic security. Find something

you're good at, double down on it, work really hard, invest in professional relationships, spend less than you make, save money, and hopefully you get to a point as I have where you can focus on your relationships and having a great time and trying to think about, all right, now how do I actually add value and give back and recognize a lot of my success is not my fault and try and create the same opportunities for younger people? But I would argue where you are and the attitude and the approach you take, not addiction at all. For me to continue to be totally focused on money, which I don't think I am, but probably still too much, that's an addiction. What you're suffering from is a healthy dose of common sense. We'll be right back off to the

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that you made a non-economically motivated decision while you say that you were not in a state of total economic security. Like, you certainly weren't where you are now economically. that's kind of interesting. Like, why did you do that? Did you think that you would just give up on not trying to be? I mean, you said you like the sound of Scott Galloway billionaire. You're not a billionaire, but you're, you've made a lot of money.

Certainly several millions of dollars. I mean, what was the rationale, like when you decided to become a professor? So I'm such a narcissist, and I'm such a huge. Giga, when you said several million dollars, that pissed me off because I've made a lot more than that, Ed. Okay. All right. Anyways, we don't need to go there. I'm just trying to be honest about what a fucking narcissist I am and how I still conflate money

with character. Yes, agreed. Anyways, the teaching thing was a guy named David Ocker changed my life. He's a professor at the high school of business, went back to business school because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I didn't want to be an investment banker. And I took his class, and I just thought it was incredibly taught this class on brand strategy. It talked about the importance of yellow for Caterpillar about how this color meant reconstruction and hope and capitalism and caterpillars enjoyed these irrational margins and what Nike means in terms of you didn't win silver, you lost gold and competitive excellence and how they could figure out a way to get people to pay $110 for a shoe that costs $7 to manufacture.

I just thought, this is what I want to do the rest of my life. And I also, when I was in business school and I got my act together and started doing well, I thought I think I would really enjoy teaching. And I actually met with some advisors and thought, I'm thinking about getting a PhD and going another three years here and being a professor and or becoming kind of a real professor, and that is PhD tenure track professor. My mom got sick. For the second time in my second year in business school, she was diagnosed with cancer. And I just thought, okay, I got to make some money. I got to, this is my priority is money. and I'm 27 second year business school. My mom is sick again.

And to be underinsured in a capitalist America and not have money is a, I mean, the moment I became obsessed with money, I can tell you exactly what it is. My mom called me in my second year business school and said, I'm not feeling well you need to come home. This is really bad. She just had her second mastectomy. She was discharged from the hospital early because hospitals have an economic. incentive to kick you out early. My mom is not a dramatic person. I flew home, Southwest Airlines, Oakland, to Burbank. And I walked into a situation and I'll spare you the details, but it was a gruesome, uncomfortable situation at that moment, like the, what I'll call, the downside of capitalism,

like, punched me in the fucking face. And I said, okay, like, sleepwalking through life and being I don't want to call it economically responsible, but not as focused. That part of my life was over. And I became very focused on money. And that was the moment. I mean, that was, and something I think about now is like, where do my kids find grid to be productive and work hard? But that was, you know, that was the moment for me where I thought, okay, There are certain things that are out of your control, but I can control how hard I'm going to work.

And it just really struck me that in America not having money is humiliating and, you know, inhibits your ability to take care of the people you love. But that, literally, that was the moment. It's like, okay, I'm not going to go get my PhD because I think I'll like teaching. I'm not going to like fuck around and not good, good, good grades. I'm not going to, you know, smoke pot every night. I'm going to like, you know, I'm going to get serious.

And because my lack of economic power was not only like potentially going to make me vulnerable, but it had put my mom in a vulnerable position. But that was the moment. I mean, I feel like that's such a, important moment because of how unfair it is. Like when you think about the constraints that a lack of money puts people into, at a moment where it's a, yeah, as you say, about protecting your mother and this stupid thing called money put a constraint on the situation where you didn't

have much of a choice. Well, let me be clear. Just so I can not sound like in virtue of significantly too much, I also thought having a lot of money would get me laid more. I need to be honest. So I had motivations on a number of dimensions. But it's also informed my priorities as I get older. I think we, and I give money to politicians who are of the same.

I think we absolutely need universal health care. I don't think any son, any husband should think I think I'm micro bankrupt because my wife's been diagnosed with lung cancer. I just think that the amount of economic anxiety and shame felt by 40% of the U.S. households that have some sort of medical debt, I think that's unforgivable in a society as prosperous as us. And so it's informed what's important to me. You know, one of the things I'm very focused on right now, I'm writing a book on, you know, loosely called Project 28 about economic policies and that I think would help America. And top of the list, I talk about this a lot.

is just health care. We have to have some form of single-payer universal health care. That would be, the S&P could double, more accretive to the well-being and health, mental health of Americans, would be some sort of single-payer health care. You know, everyone should post the Canadian system or the national, the NHS and the UK. No one's worried they're going to go bankrupt if they're, if they're their daughter gets MS. I mean, that's just unforgivable. So that experience not only motivated me around money, it's informed my worldview. Also, as I've gotten older, I've become much more about a progressive tax structure.

There's just no reason anyone needs to make more than $10 billion a year. You don't need it. It's not going to make any happier. So why wouldn't you tax that it, call it alternative minimum tax of 40, 50, 60 percent? Because that additional incremental tax revenue, if it provides universal health care or universal pre-K, it's going to create a great deal of happiness for households. Were you politically, just the question, were you politically motivated 20, 30 years ago, or is this more new? Oh, it's more new. You know, when I was your age, I didn't really care about much about politics.

I mean, I was a Democrat. I remember all of my friends in the fraternity would refer to me as a pussy because I had a Mondale. poster in my fraternity window and they all thought Reagan was the biggest stud alive. So I've always been. My conservative friends, the lip-tile. I've always been, yeah. Yeah, I've always been, I've always been a progressive, but it really has, I've become much more politically involved as I've gotten older.

A, well, I find it super interesting, but B, I really do think that all of the things that gave me success are under attack right now, assisted lunch. grants, all my companies were built by immigrants, my mom access family planning. I just, all the things that put, you know, state sponsored education, all the thing at affordable, accessible rate, everything to put me here with you now are under attack. And I just think it would show a lack of, I don't want to be the Lindsay Graham of whatever does I do, and that is enjoy being an openly gay man while continuing to diminish the rights of other gay people. Like, I find that, unforgivable. I don't want to be the, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be an ungrateful

prick and, and not advocate for policies and investments that have given me such an incredible life and also push back on many of the policies that are making it harder for people like myself to achieve the American dream. So yeah, it's made me much more politically aware as I've gotten and older. When I was your age, I remember, I think it's so sad. I think a lot about young men and mating and relationships. Supposedly a big reason why people won't date each other is they have different political views. For a wife of me, I could not, gun to head tell you what the political views are or if anyone I dated in my 20s and that, we just didn't talk about that shit. I mean, it just didn't matter. And I'm like, okay, great, another reason why people aren't dating.

But no, I became much more politically cognizant. I don't think I voted until I was 24. or 28. I don't, so yeah, that that is increased dramatically for me. We'll be right back. And for even more markets content, sign up for our newsletter at profgmarkets.com. Support for the show comes from Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value in fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real, lots of firms through a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day, but not Vanguard. Vanguard's bond lineup is built around institutional quality. And institutional quality isn't just a tagline, it's a commitment to delivering the kind

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This and other information can be found in the fund's prospectus at getvcx.com. This is a paid sponsorship. We're back with Profi Markets. If you lost your money tomorrow, what would happen to you? And this kind of gets to the extent to which money becomes part of your identity. Because we were talking about this idea of self-worth, and that's how you kind of figured out which people are valuable. And you were saying this in the sense that you had maybe a problematic relationship with money in this regard.

But, I mean, to what extent do you feel that it is tied into your identity today? And does it ever freak you out? Well, if I lost my money, all my money, the first thing is I'd be tangibly less interesting. It's true. People think I'm much more interesting than I am. And one of those reasons is because of the podcast and the little bit of fame we have. But also, when you're wealthy in America, people either think he's a really interesting guy or his success. I just want to know them.

I mean, I've gotten more interesting and attractive, almost entirely correlated to my net worth. It's just the truth. That is what it is to be a male in America. You're fucking fascinating when you're rich. Maybe you're hated, but you're fascinating. And so the first thing that would happen is I'd get, the number of random outreaches and dinner invitations I get would be cut by 90%.

it would massively attack my self-esteem. And I would be very fearful about, you know, I'm dropping my kid off of UVA. Out of state tuition is 62 grand. It's probably going to cost us minimum 100 grand a year. I don't have to worry about that. I get to worry about whether I'm going to the UVA versus Calgame with my friends and whether he'll be embarrassed to have me there or not. You know, I can worry about all the dumb shit because I'm not freaking out about how I'm going to pay for my college, my kids' education.

If I didn't have those abilities, I think I could still make money. I'm still reasonably talented, reasonably hardworking. It would enormously attack my self-esteem and anxiety because it takes me back to when my oldest was born 18 years ago. It was right after the great financial recession. I had lost everything again. And when my kids came marching out of my girlfriend, I didn't feel bright lights and angels singing in like a life insurance commercial and automatically left. I'm like, fuck. I am so

anxious and so pissed off at myself and so ashamed because I was making all this money and I was too stupid to diversify, totally egomaniacal, convinced by my VCs to go all in over and over, and great financial recession hits, and I am broke. And now I've not only failed myself, I have failed my kid. And that paternal shame was like nothing I'd ever felt before. So the idea of feeling that again where if I'd lost money, I would be bummed out because I wouldn't get to do the things I'd love to do. I don't think I'd be as interesting or as attractive to other people.

But the shit that would really fuck with me would be a sense that I had failed my family and that I wasn't living up to my obligation as a protector. That's what would really, like, I mean, I was just thinking, as you asked that, I thought, would I rather be diagnosed with cancer or go broke? And people say health is everything. I get it. But I have to think about it for a second because I'm a very analytical person. The majority of people diagnosed with cancer, survive it, and die from something else,

depending on the type of cancer. if I had, if all of a sudden I went to zero at my age, I'm not sure I could make it back again. I know I don't want the stress of having to try and make it back again. The feeling of shame, a lot of it would be self-imposed that I wasn't a good protector or provider for my family would be just, God, at this age, it would just be, I mean, I think I would choose the broke over the cancer, but it's not an easy choice for me right now. I mean, that's, I know how pathetic that sounds. I don't think it sounds pathetic. Maybe other people will too. I don't think so.

But I'm like, with the money I have, I think I can probably solve most cancers or at least address them, depending on the type of cancer. It's just as soon as you said that, I thought, okay, would you rather have cancer would be broke? And I had to think about it. So anyways, I don't. You saying that question triggers me because I diversify so much because Ed, you know, I'm not going back, you know. It's like that final scene in, God, a great movie, the Michael Mann movie with Al Pacino, Robert De Niro,

Heat, Jesus Christ, all of you have to go watch Heat. Anyways, the end scene of heat. Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are having this conversation. Al Pacino's a cop, Robert De Niro's a criminal. And Robert De Niro was like talking about president. He's like, I'm not going back. He's like, you know, I'd rather die. He's like, I'll die at a gunfight with cops, but I'm not going back.

I don't want to be that dramatic, but I have real fears or at this age around going back. I tell people I've been rich three times. It's because I've been broke, I've gone broke twice. And I'm not going back again. I really don't want to go back again because I don't feel like I have, I don't have, I don't have the constitution, the work ethic, and the forgiveness in myself to get back up and try it again and claw back again. And I coach a lot of my friends around money and we're very open with each other. And my fondest thing is like, dude, what are you doing? You're taking too much risk. I'm like,

we can't, we're too old to make it back again. You got to diversify. You're too concentrated in this asset. What are you thinking? But yeah, that is a triggering question. for me. At your age, you could go to zero right now. You'd be fine. You're super talented. You're on the upslope. CNBC or MSNBC or MS now or whatever. You know, would say, hey, do you want to substitute for Katie Tour? And they'd pay you a lot of money. Or you could go to work, you know, you could, you're fine. At my age, going to zero is an entirely different, entirely different scenario. Do you have fears around going broke right now? No, I think to your point, I mean, I really wouldn't like it,

but I think I would take it upon myself to figure it out. And I trust myself that I can do it at this point. But I also don't want to get too confident about that or too cocky about that and think that, oh, I can figure it out no matter what. I mean, who knows? But no, I think ultimately, yeah, this goes to your point. I feel that I'm young, I have time, I can weather ups and downs, and I can probably figure it out over the long term,

but I prefer to make it easy for myself. That would be ideal. Just as we wrap up here, what advice would you give to someone who is struggling right now, who feels like they're in the place that you were when you say, I'm not going back. And who wants to get to where you are? Well, the first is if you wake up, as I did, at whatever it was, 34, after thinking you were rich, and then again, at 44, after again thinking you were rich, and you're broke because you weren't

diversified or the market went the wrong way. you, whatever. Partially your fault, partially out of your control. The first thing is, forgive yourself. Recognize that a lot of your success on the way up wasn't your fault, but a lot of the things that hurt you economically and professionally are your fault either. And my core competence of storytelling, but my superpowers have been one ability to attract and retain good people, but also to forgive myself. I have a lot of friends who knew nothing but success, great business school, out of the gates, work for a hedge fund, or McKinsey, or Goldman made a shit ton of money. And then the market turns against them for whatever reason. They lose a

bunch of money and they have to close their hedge fund or they get laid off from Goldman or whatever it is or they thought that they'd start their own consulting practice and it doesn't get off as quickly. And they can't forgive themselves. They get stuck. They feel aggrieved. They have a lot, loss of confidence. They're angry at the world. I've been shot in the fucking face and I'm mourn for a little bit, and then I get up, and I try and raise more money, and I move on. That's been my superpower. I'm really good at getting up and trying again. I don't want to do it again.

But what I would say is, if you get shot in the face economically and things haven't worked out, you have to recognize a lot of that's not your fault and do whatever it is you need to do. you know, being around the right people, you know, forgiving yourself. But every day, get up, get exercise, get sunlight, good nutrition, and build a list of things you're going to do that day to start making baby steps to get back in the game. Because America forgives people. And America still, you still have, I believe, more agency in America than any nation in the world and recognize that, okay, yeah, I got shot in the face. It's upsetting.

next. What am I going to do tomorrow to build again and forgive yourself? Because the thing you're going to regret in your life is not what happened to you. You're going to regret how hard on yourself you were. But I don't think there's any like algorithm or secret, you know, silver bullet for this is how you build back. You build back by building. You get up, you try again, you reach out to people, you ask for help, you work hard. But the thing that takes so many successful people off track is they have their first defeat, and they can't get up. They're literally frozen. I mean, and this isn't, these are smart, talented people, and they're like still talking about how their hedge fund closed eight years ago and they haven't been able to raise money and they, they aren't trying as hard and

they're depressed. And it's just like, okay, get on with it. Get on with it. You know, go to work for a bigger fund or whatever it is or try something else. You're a talent. You're a You've been blessed with incredible. And I'm saying this because most of my friends are guys. You have incredible education. Maybe you aren't going to be a master in the universe. You don't need a fucking townhouse in Tribeca. You're going to be fine with a nice place in Montclair, New Jersey, or maybe,

even, God forbid, move to Florida where the cost of living is much lower. You're going to be fine. You're going to be happy. Do you have a good partner? You're talented. You can make a good living. So anyways, long story short, forgive yourself. When things are going really well, recognize a lot of that isn't your fault.

You need to be humble and you need to diversify because eventually the winds will turn against you. And when things aren't going your way and you have, you're fired, you lose a shit ton of money, your business fails. You have love that's not affection that's not reciprocated from someone else. Recognize at the end of your life, you're not going to be upset about what happened. You're going to be upset about how upset you were. and just next day make a list of what's required to move forward and every day make progress against that list. And don't feel any shame.

Keep in mind, oh, I've had tons of businesses fail. And it's like, okay, people read in the paper that Brand Farm, my e-commerce incubator backed by Goldman Sachs and Howard Shultz and was on the cover of Ink Magazine, it went out of business. Oh, how fucking embarrassing. How am I going to recover? No one cares. No one cares about your failure.

which means if you have a good idea, they're willing to invest in you and they're willing to come to work for you again. That's a wonderful thing about America. No one is thinking about your failure or your success or your shit as much as you are. So why wouldn't you just get up and try again? And there's another relationship,

there's another investment, there's another business waiting to be approached or started. And if you've done it once, you can do it again. And just get on it. Like, forgive yourself. Learn to mourn and move on. Get up, get back to the plate, and swing harder. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer.

Our video editor is Jorge Carty. Our research team is Dan Shillan, Chris Nodanahue and Mia Silverio. Jake McPherson is our social producer, Drew Burroughs, is our technical director, and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to ProfitMarkets and Proffty Media. If you like what you heard, give us a follow. tune in tomorrow for a fresh take on the markets.