Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: John Foong on inspiring confidence in the property Domain

Starting point is 00:00:00 So, I mean, I think interest rates and inflation are the big stories of the day. Again, we're very fortunate to have our in-house economics team. So we are constantly looking at what reporters are saying, at what the data is saying, what our own internal systems are saying. Clearly, inflation is going up. And I think the Reserve Bank expected to go up to maybe about 7% before it comes down and that to happen into next year. So inflationary expectations are high. And related to that, interest expectations are also high. obviously started at 0.1%. We've gone quite a long way up, 0.85%, I should say. And I think

Starting point is 00:00:35 the various predictions that it will end up in 2.5% sometime next year, maybe higher, maybe lower, no one really knows, but it's going that direction. I think we know from past history is that there's a relatively strong correlation between interest rates and house prices. Generally, as interest rates go up, house prices go down. And this, of course, is the motivation for raising interest rates to kind of suppress the cost of housing and also to potentially reduce people's disposable income to suppress some of the inflationary pressures. And so that is likely to happen. Again, no one knows, has it already happened?

Starting point is 00:01:10 Is there much more to come? No one knows. It's very hard to predict. But that is what we're anticipating going next 12 months. I think, interestingly enough, that obviously makes things more of a buyer's market, the seller's market, which actually makes tools such as domain even more important. fundamentally we can connect buyers with sellers and renters with landlords that is the bread and butter what we do and i think it's a starting point for if you're trying to get a property

Starting point is 00:01:34 whether you're renting or buying we want it to be really really easy for you to kind of research learn what are the best options for you the other side of the marketplace is we want to make sure that people who are trying to sell or rent their home they know they're getting access to as many eyeballs as possible and we're constantly trying to make the app and the experience and the notifications and the features even better so people when they spend their time it's a great experience. Our app continues to try and be on the cutting edge and it's all about helping people search quicker and search more effectively with less time and more fun. Welcome to the Get Invested podcast where we share great conversations with experts from all walks of life to uncover

Starting point is 00:02:13 their secret know-how and where they invest their time, their skills and their money and the benefits that this has created. You see, the truth is that everyone invests. Every minute of every day, we're investing our time, our skills, our energy, and our money in something. Some of us are investing consciously, some unconsciously, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad, sometimes for no impact. Get Invested will help you to start living by design, not by default. I'm going to help you to make it happen, not let it happen. You'll hear the top tips on how you can live with conscious intent so that you can live more, work less, and leave a living legacy by investing now. Listen to the show to discover the top tips on how to get started,

Starting point is 00:03:00 make the most of your investment journey, and ultimately to be living your dream, not someone else's. More episodes can be found on iTunes or at bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested. Thanks for listening, and now let's get invested. Hi, Freedom Fighters. Now, in recent times, the media has been awash with fearful headlines on runaway inflation, soaring interest rates and imminent property crashes. But does the hype match the reality? And where is the future of property heading? How can you navigate the dynamic world of property and make clear, comfortable and confident decisions? Because over the last decade or so, we've been and we've seen exponential change in the way everyone experiences and does

Starting point is 00:03:46 property. We've shifted from a clunky, slow, unbalanced physical marketplace that offered very little current usable information where selling agents held all the cards to the other extreme where most of us conduct property in a fast-moving instantaneous digital marketplace that's approaching the efficiency of share markets where everyone has access to almost too much confusing and often contradictory information. So how do we successfully navigate this new and ever-improving world where property is now conducted anywhere at any time from the palm of your hand. Where is property heading and what are the challenges and disruptive emerging innovations moving forward that will continue to transform our property experience? Well at the

Starting point is 00:04:31 crossroads of all of this is the domain group where domain is positioned as a leading property marketplace that aims to inspire confidence for all of life's property decisions providing us with a suite of unique data, products, technology, and insights to guide all of our property journeys. And to give us a rare peek under the hood of this exciting and ever-expanding world and where it's heading and what it means to you, we're joined by Domain's recently appointed Chief Revenue Officer, John Fung, who brings a wealth of leading global leadership and innovation to the world of Australian property.

Starting point is 00:05:03 So welcome, and let's get invested, John. Hey, Brucey. Great to be with you today. Awesome, mate. I've been really looking forward to this one for quite some time because you really are at the intersection of all things property in the current world and the future of property from that perspective. So we're looking forward to diving into that. But before we do so, mate, for those who don't know who you are, can you start off by telling us what you do differently and, most importantly, John, why you do what you do? Sure.

Starting point is 00:05:36 Thanks, Wishy. um not sure how much i do differently but i will tell you what i do do and why i do it effectively i guess from early age i've really felt to be called to be a leader a leader of people and i think the predominant mindset of leadership that has been i guess part of my dna is really to be a servant leader and a servant leader is that you're in leadership it's a privilege it's a calling it's responsibility and the impact of leadership should be judged on how you have impacted other people particularly people who can't pay you back who can't do anything for you how have you used your gifts your abilities and your opportunities to benefit them

Starting point is 00:06:12 and i think that describes how i try and be a leader how i've tried to shape my leadership skills and a bit of this is kind of like why i lead whether it's kind of in professionally or personally or in the home i also lead because i want to lead people in a better place you know from where they are today whether that's you know their career their finances you know for my children my wife you know their own development their own happiness their own joy i love it mate that's a great passion and purpose right there and there uh before we sort of jump into your history and and you're you know taking us through the journey so far what's what's something unique or interesting about you that you've uh never shared or rarely shared publicly before mate

Starting point is 00:06:54 um there's two things that came to mind uh when when i was thinking about this question i think And the first thing is, I used to be one of Mozambique's primary poultry experts. Back in 2005, I spent about six months and a bunch of time in 2006 in Mozambique, really helping them work on behalf of the US government to think about what are some domestic industries where they could really be internationally competitive. It turned out there's a lot of small-scale, large-scale chicken farming there, with the addition of a few changes to how they did inputs and some and some consolidated buying groups we were able to make those chickens very competitive and that's an industry persistent thing so that's

Starting point is 00:07:35 something i'm really proud of and i haven't spoken much about before i think the other thing to raise is uh this kind of dovetails in the servant leadership story um i kind of grew up in the church you know here in sydney and one of the things i felt really called to from early age was to be a pastor so when i was about 15 or 16 i told my dad dad i'm gonna drop out of school i'm We're going to Bible college and we're going to seminary. And eventually he kind of like helped me to think of that in a broad sense, helped me to think about leadership in a broad sense, not just a destination of like I want to be this,

Starting point is 00:08:02 but a set of skills and a calling, which we use in many different domains part of the time. So that's something which, you know, was I think the direction of my life for many years. It hasn't quite worked out the way just yet, but that's something in my teenage years I've felt very strongly called to. Yeah, I love that. And it's an area of leadership that very few people tend to even think about

Starting point is 00:08:24 or get to, and that whole concept of servant leadership. Is that something that's sort of been in your DNA right from the day dot and also probably nurtured through your family upbringing? And closing the loop on that, of course, is that something that ultimately you'll get back to in terms of that sort of passership draw that started you on this journey so many years ago? Yeah, I'll answer the second question first.

Starting point is 00:08:55 I guess what you're like, I don't know. I think it's funny, when I was younger, I was much more sure about how my life would work out. And the older I get, the more I realize I don't know. So who knows? And very much my calling is not about a destination. It's about a set of skills and a mindset around servant leadership. I'm just trying to be a better servant leader

Starting point is 00:09:11 and work on the many areas where I can get a lot better. I think when it comes to, you know, some of the institutions or some of the ways that impacted me, I think I was obviously very heavily influenced with family, but probably two things really influenced me a lot. I think one was I went to a school called Knox Grammar School here in Sydney, and it very much sees itself as kind of a leadership academy.

Starting point is 00:09:32 And that was the thing that, how we were raised. We were raised to kind of be relation to men. It's an all-boys school there. And so we were taught, you know, not just about music and arts and mathematics and science and English, but actually to have a really broad range of education, you know, and to use that education in a leadership capacity. They have, you know, military cadets and they have captaincies

Starting point is 00:09:54 and they have all these leadership opportunities that people have a chance to serve. And so that blueprint of the servant leader was very much forged in me from a very early age. And I think a lot of my early age was spent, you know, in the church, volunteering, doing missions work, running kids' camps. So a lot of the way that I experienced my free time

Starting point is 00:10:14 was in areas of leadership. So much so that, you know, for me, what I thought about enjoyment or leisure may be overly enmeshed, you know, but I always thought about how can I lead and how can I take a leadership opportunity. So it was very much a part of me, very much a part of my identity,

Starting point is 00:10:30 maybe too cool in terms of like, it's hard for me to even think about, you know, about responsibility and enjoyment, you know, apart from how can I be a leader in it. Yeah, I love it. It's a great calling and clearly the seeds that were sown way back then have really taken fruit because you've had an amazing and stellar career today, which I'd like to unpack a little bit now if we can, just so that we've got a much better gauge on the wealth of wisdom

Starting point is 00:10:57 that you bring to the table. Can you sort of take us through where you've invested your time, energy and money over the years and why and how this has now led you to what you're doing today? Sure, sure. So I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. So I grew up here in Sydney, had a really wonderful childhood, grew up in Gorda on the North Shore, had the privilege of going to a school like Knox,

Starting point is 00:11:19 which really gave a lot of opportunity. Had a lot of nurturing extracurricular activities, whether it's choir or church. I wasn't very good at sports, but I really enjoyed playing them. And I think, you know, after wrestling with that question, like what do I do with my life at the age of 16, and saying, well, I'd really like to be a pastor, I'd really like to learn about servant leadership,

Starting point is 00:11:39 That actually was a pretty big influence in how I made the next 15, 20 years of decisions. I did a course that was both business and technology, information systems and management at the University of New South Wales, which really taught about business, about technology and leadership were the focuses. I just really loved that. And then I was fortunate enough to join a company called McKinsey, which is a consulting company, in my first big job out of university. And really, McKinsey is kind of built a bit like a CEO factory.

Starting point is 00:12:09 It prides itself on the Fortune 500. One of the companies where they most come from is McKinsey. And I think consulting is a really interesting skill set because it teaches you to walk into many different problems. You walk into a different company, a different set of problems, a different team every six to eight weeks. And you'll try to work out how can we help? How can we have impact? So it's a wonderful training, particularly early in one's life. And that led me down a certain path, too.

Starting point is 00:12:34 of what they'll typically do in this consulting companies is you'll spend two years working as an analyst and then they'll encourage you to go and and and get a graduate degree somewhere in whatever around the whole world that you can get into and so I put my I put my applications in I applied for a lot of business schools in the US to do my MBA went to Africa for six months during that time got admitted lucky enough to go to Stanford to do a master's of business administration and a master's in education, so a joint degree there. And when I was in America, kind of my whole world opened up. You know, up until that stage, I'd only really lived in the same suburb

Starting point is 00:13:10 my whole life in Gordon and survived my whole life. And to meet with people all over the world, all who've come together in this notion of how can we learn how to be better leaders, better servant leaders, it was just amazing, just a life-changing experience. And I spent the next 17 years in different leadership positions around the world. First joining Google in London in marketing, you know, and then accepting a full-time job in Ireland in their operations center, running a technical team there, and then

Starting point is 00:13:38 switched into sales. And it was about, you know, 15 years ago, and just loving, enjoying how to sell and how to build sales teams and getting to work with all sorts of different cultures. You know, I led French teams, German teams, Italian teams, Arabic teams, just really learning about the world as a very, very large place, and that led me ultimately to Google headquarters in Silicon Valley, where I spent another six years in different roles, my biggest role there running, I guess, Google's agency team. We had 20,000 agents who were selling Google technologies all around the world, and I had a team of about 300 people and a few billion dollars in budget trying to fund and enable

Starting point is 00:14:18 other people to build businesses on Google. So that was my last big job at Google, ending in 2019, and I went to take a similar job in Uber for about two years after that in the Uber for Business division, again, based in Silicon Valley. And it was about a year ago that we made the decision to come back home, or home for me. My wife is American. My kids are born in America. She's from California. So that led us back here, and that led the search to kind of look for domain, what ultimately became domain. So that was a bit about kind of my work history, you know, to kind of read this, digest this version.

Starting point is 00:14:50 and how I invest a lot of my kind of leadership time. I can talk about the property version of that if that works too, Bushy. Yeah, I will. Before we get into that, and that's a great segue, but I'd love for you to just to share, you know, working in the hallowed atmosphere of Google and Uber, who, you know, have got enormous reputations globally

Starting point is 00:15:13 in terms of what they're doing. What was it about their culture and what were the learnings that you took from both of those extensive experiences that have shaped who you are and what you're now doing? You know, I think overall Google and Uber are amazing companies to work and covers that nature. And there's definitely some scrutiny of their practices, are they too big, you know, how they go about things.

Starting point is 00:15:36 And every company has things it can work on and its own blind spots. But in general, I think the two things I really took away from those experiences are this notion of thinking about scale. Whenever you do something at Google, it's 100,000 people. It's over $100 billion in revenue. You're not just trying to fix a problem for a particular circumstance in a particular geography.

Starting point is 00:15:56 You're trying to understand what is the DNA of that problem and a template solution that can be rolled out and adapted globally and repeated a billion times. It's almost what we call the toothbrush test at Google, which is you want to do something useful and so universal that every person uses it twice a day. and the thinking behind that it's a totally different way of thinking about problems

Starting point is 00:16:17 because you have to think about scale you have to think about how you can replicate it, automate it outsource it, not just how one really good person could do it on demand in a particular way, that's one thing I really took away the other thing I think I really took away from those experiences was

Starting point is 00:16:33 they really figure out the ultimate currency of Google and Uber and those companies is their people they're only as good as they are because they hired the best providers. They're only as good as they are because they retain them and they continue to attract better and brighter people. And a lot of that is compensation. They pay very well. And some of it is the perks, but a lot of it is this notion of value and career development. That is, if you go to Google or Uber, and I feel pretty similar to that domain as well,

Starting point is 00:17:00 and that's what it's evolving into, you're on a career accelerator. You're going to get three or four years' work experience every year you stay. You're going to be treated really well. People going to listen to your ideas there is a hierarchy and an and you know and an organizational chart but everyone is expected to think like a ceo and to bring ideas to the table and an obligation to the sense and i think that's the wonderful thing about these companies and how they've been able to kind of retain such great people and build such a such competitive manager so that's a lot of what i took away from that time yeah i love it it sounds very much like the sort of concept of building your own business within the business that's solving big problems

Starting point is 00:17:38 rather than get too niched and too focused on the minutiae. It's creating this sort of a culture of problem-solving and creative approaches that pretty much, I guess, what I'm hearing there is that the sky's the limit. It's how big do you want to take it? Am I reading that rightly? Yeah, and they've done a good job of really making the sky the limit. Like when I was at Google for 13 years, I started off as an intern.

Starting point is 00:18:05 You know, some people go, like, how do you set the same company for those eight years and not get bored? But the reality is I had a different job every 12 to 18 months. Even within the same job, things were constantly changing, circumstances, people, challenges. And then every 18 months, I would make a material change. I started in marketing. I went to operations.

Starting point is 00:18:22 I went to sales. I went to being a sales manager. I went to being a sales manager of managers and a sales director. Then I went to pre-sales. Then I went to channel sales. You know, so you've got all these different jobs. And every time, because I'm like myself, I'm trying to build out my leadership toolkit.

Starting point is 00:18:36 What are the different functions, different challenges, different geographies that can make me a different servant leader? And regardless of whether people are being called to be a servant leader or a CEO or an entrepreneur or anything above, these large companies with their internal mobility give you an opportunity to kind of build up that resume and build those experiences without having to look for a new employer. It's something that's very, very effective. Yeah, I love it.

Starting point is 00:18:58 I'm hearing almost a limitless fearlessness in your courage and approach to things, John, that a lot of people don't have because to be able to shift so substantially amongst different roles, different countries, different areas, a lot of people limit themselves in that regard. What's the secret, do you believe, to your belief system that allows you to embrace and pursue those sorts of challenges? you know i think there's this um saying from the bible that's been used pretty pretty popularly is i kind of love your neighbor as yourself and i think to me that brings together

Starting point is 00:19:42 the two parts of the two necessary parts of a civilization calling we are deeply called to love others as ourselves to what the best for them even if we disagree with them even if we disagree with their beliefs so to give them the autonomy and the opportunity to pursue a future that we ourselves are pursuing. But I think if you want to love your labor as yourself, you really have to love yourself. You really have to think that you're great, that you're worthy of appreciation, you're worthy of opportunity, you're worthy of love, you're worthy of choice, you're worthy of being listened to. And I think that's hard. I think it's hard. I even think for a lot of people like myself who've had a lot of opportunity, a lot of that comes because we value ourselves

Starting point is 00:20:21 very highly. But there's almost a DNA about us not seeing ourselves as enough, you know, of always wanting, striving, trying to prove, trying to prove them wrong, that kind of chip on your shoulder, that can be a lot of the fuel for people trying really hard, but could be a lot of the depression and the anxiety and the insecurity that comes from being someone who's a high performer. And so I think that's a challenge for all of us to love our neighbor as ourself. It often is easier to love our neighbor better than we love ourself, because we can be the harshest critic. And I think seeing yourself as having a limitless opportunity comes from believe that you are worthy of opportunity and worthy of love yeah extremely well said well

Starting point is 00:21:00 given that context then and and looking back on your life so far what what challenging event in your life has brought about your greatest learnings and best changes today um you know i think no family is perfect we all go through uh challenges and families whether it's divorces or separations, or in my case, there was loss at an early age. And I think what that enabled me to do, for better or for worse, is to look for opportunity and look for family outside of family. It really kind of led me to look at institutions such as school, as church, as nonprofit, as missions, as places where I can build family, I can build relationship, where I can be a bigger brother you know or an older cousin you know where I can be a father to the

Starting point is 00:21:54 fatherless or whatever the phrase might be and I think that was a family challenge which enabled me to really fast track my leadership skills I think that comes with its own set of challenges because ultimately nothing can replace family and if anything I've learned over the years family must come first whether it's the family you're brought into or the family you're building But I think being able to pursue family outside of my family led me to create some really meaningful connections and opportunities in one of these great institutions. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:29 Excuse me if I'm overstepping the line here, but are you able to dig in a little bit deeper on what that loss was? Was it a loss of a brother or a family member that we're talking about? Yeah, sure. I'll share a bit of that. So, you know, when I was relatively young, my mother passed away. And these things are always tragic. And I was too young to really, truly know her.

Starting point is 00:22:51 And I was very fortunate that my granny, who, you know, on my father's side, she was a Malaysian and she came over basically to look after me and kind of be my mother. And so a lot of my investing into schools and institutions to serve the leadership, I see as role model on her and my father and how they sought to forge a future for me and my sister despite the disadvantages we would have had in not having a mum from an early age. Yeah, it's very challenging at an early age, John.

Starting point is 00:23:24 And, you know, while I'm sure it's still something you live with day by day, I'm very sorry for your loss. Thank you. But like most great people, you've taken that to your advantage in some sense and the environment that your granny and your father created around you to give you that sense of self-belief to then take on the world like you have for respect and really commend you for what you've done as a consequence of that. Because a lot of people would use that as an excuse and a crutch

Starting point is 00:24:01 for the reasons why they haven't done things. One of the rare ones who've embraced that and taking your world to new heights, mate. So full respect for that. Thanks, Bushy. Just to close on that, I think a lot of life is about appreciating the silver linings and the, I don't know what the opposite of silver linings are,

Starting point is 00:24:24 the kind of bronze linings, I'm not sure. But I think having that loss and absorbing myself in institutions had a lot of benefits, and I see a lot of my leadership has been forged through that and that desire to really create safety and create opportunity for myself and other people. But I think a lot of life is understanding how some of these challenges, whether it's loss or divorce or things like that, some of the things which are negative or challenges or blind spots as a result. And for me, it's been very helpful in both working on my leadership style and my style as a husband and as a father. You know, how loss like that might affect how I parent, how I relate to people, how I might be blind to things I don't easily see that maybe a mother could have helped me see better. And I think a lot of life is not denying that or using an excuse, but also recognizing its power and recognizing that we will have challenges that are challenging for us, not other people, and having a plan to really work towards those things. And so that's been a lot of my life, particularly the last 10 years as I've moved into marriage and fatherhood, and reflecting on how some of those impacts affect how I conduct my family and work relationships. Yeah, I love it, mate.

Starting point is 00:25:38 I absolutely love it. Mate, I'm going to jump into the future for a minute then and get you to paint us a picture of what your ultimate life vision and ideal lifestyle looks like, if you can. you know i don't know as i as i said before there's not necessarily an ultimate destination for me in terms of like a dollar value or you know a certain setup uh i do think when i was getting ready for business school this is oh my goodness 15 20 years ago i literally did some of those calculations which i actually thought were very very helpful around kind of like how many dollars i think i would need to actually ultimately go back and be a pastor and you know on a more lowly paid salary so those were helpful calculations for me it's less about those

Starting point is 00:26:17 precise calculations now are more about a series of outcomes I think for me and I think of it as a series of concentric circles I also want to be at peace with myself and with God you know and and and whatever circumstances might throw at me whatever I can and can't control I'm comfortable to be and not be striving I think the next circle is family and I feel that I would not have compromised family and be the very best possible family member son father husband you know grandson that I could possibly be and have no regrets around that. I think when I think of the next concentric circle, I do want to have impact in the world,

Starting point is 00:26:53 but I think I've become a lot less prescriptive of what that would look like. You know, when I was younger, it was to be a pastor. And then, you know, more recently, it's like, I want to be a CEO. But the reality is I have a set of gifts and I want to work on those gifts and skills and life will determine how those are actually used.

Starting point is 00:27:08 And so sitting behind it in terms of kind of a financial plan, my financial plan is one that also gives flexibility to pursue those things so we kind of said okay i actually want to do drop out and become a pastor or be this sort of non-profit and effectively uh you know what do we have the money to give our kids the opportunities that we had you know but may not necessarily have to pursue a highly paid or high pressure job you know so there's a financial flexibility there's even kind of like a i would say a geographical flexibility like a lifestyle flexibility how we structured our lives in such a way that we can pursue things uh that we have time to go on date nights which is

Starting point is 00:27:43 really important that we have time to spend with family that we have time to travel and all these financial and non-financial considerations it's all about crafting and recrafting you know what kind of life and what kind of job i'd like to have uh so that yes we're building towards something in 10 or 20 30 years but what's the life i can lead today love it absolutely love them that that concept of concentric circles is a is a really good framework to think about you and how you're relating with the world and where that's heading. Tell us, you mentioned the financial plan to some degree, and while it's not specific, what have you and will you continue

Starting point is 00:28:21 to invest in to facilitate that flexibility that you're talking about? I think the way that I think of our financial planning, this goes back, I guess, decades now, is I want to have a set of liquidable assets, which gives me flexibility for the kind opportunities or issues that may arise. For example, you know, me and my wife were fortunate that all our parents are still alive and they're all pretty healthy. But as we know, you know, when folks are in their 70s or things like that, anything can happen, right? So do we have access to a amount of money where if there was a health crisis and money was provided, money was required,

Starting point is 00:28:59 that we could really lead in and provide that money without needing to do like very, very difficult things like sell a house or mortgage a house or something like that, right? So there's kind of like that that you know i guess for solving liquidity there's a good in the positive sense like you know like my wife's parents are based in california we would love to fly them over when they're ready we'd love to fly the kids over when we're ready like this is a costly right when you think of flying to a combination do we have enough liquidable assets or excess in our cash flow where we can pursue those things a certain number of times a year and it does not require you know for us like great sacrifice or like oh we have to choose a different school or

Starting point is 00:29:32 something like that so we've been walking towards that for many years but that's how we think about our short-term liquidity um everything left over i kind of put into long-term investment and my strategy uh for long term right is you know we want to be invested we want to be fully invested uh as much as possible and we want to be as leveraged as possible right so what we've done over the years is is trying to accumulate investment properties because we don't feel comfortable leveraging and taking margin loans and things of that nature leveraging to buy stocks and shares we do feel comfortable leveraging to buy properties whether it's investment properties or primary residence and over the years we've tried to build up that that stash of properties

Starting point is 00:30:11 so that our money's being put to work in a market that's safe it'll go up and down like the property market it'll average five to seven percent year on year over decades and then if you can leverage that by borrowing half or two-thirds then you're getting a 14 15 return annually you know you do that over the course of decades you're tripling quadrupling your money so our goal is as much as possible we're putting as much as we can into long-term leverage which is like property for everything that we can't leverage we're putting into stocks that we happen to buy and hold for as long as possible and then for the things which are short-term that's where we have either access to cash funds or or the stock market or funds like that so that if we need to take the money out

Starting point is 00:30:50 it doesn't affect our long-term investing plans yeah i love it that's a really good uh approach i I love the structure and the frameworks that you're putting around things that just make complete logical sense. So if we look at your investment journey so far personally then, what's been both your best and worst investments and what have you learned from both of them? Let me start with the worst investments because they're the easier ones to go through.

Starting point is 00:31:19 I was really, really fortunate that my dad and I guess my wife's parents as well, were schooled in property investing from an early age. So even before we were born, they were thinking about it. And so it was a culture. You know, my dad was working. He was an auditor for many years, and then he actually became a real estate agent. But for many years, he would always be investing in property.

Starting point is 00:31:42 And even though I wasn't investing, it was kind of a norm for us. And then actually towards the end of his career, he became a real estate agent at the same time that, you know, I was entering university and got my first paycheck, and I was able to invest in and we can talk about that later on. But we were often investing over time and we had a strategy of investing in Australian capital cities. And we were pretty fortunate to do this in the early 2000s. It was the start or the continuation of a long boom in Australian property, which I guess has had some hiccups but continued largely since. And one of

Starting point is 00:32:19 the properties I bought was a house in Darwin for $180,000. And this is one of the ones I see the military base there. It was a great little property. My dad went up there. I never actually got the chance to grow much stuff. And in about a year or so, it went from $180,000 to about $250,000. And I think our attitude was like, wow, that's great. Let's cash out and buy something else. And so we did. We cashed out and we bought something else. That was not a bad investment until you look back and you look at that property, it kind of doubled and chopped here after and doubled a few years after that. When you buy good properties, particularly things where there's an anchor tenant in this case the australian army you know in darwin's not going anywhere it's special

Starting point is 00:32:57 it's unique it's not huge but these are there are people who are willing to pay good money to rent these places and they're very valuable yeah that's where i kind of learned a lot to kind of buy and hold because every time you sell you take a transaction hit it takes a lot of effort you pay taxation these things are and and sometimes you need to sell because you need the money you need the cash flow it is what it is you don't have to you don't have to don't have to don't sell and therefore buy with that in mind. Buy such a way that you'd be happy to hold for 20, 30, 40 years when you haven't passed on to your children.

Starting point is 00:33:26 Those are the best kind of investments to have. And that experience, which I had, I guess, back in the early 2000s, has really been a lot of my investment thesis for the last 20 years. Yeah, I love it. Let's do the flip side then and look at your best investment and why and what you've learned from that. Yeah, I think a lot of the best investments have come through things that we have bought and we have held.

Starting point is 00:33:45 So, for example, when my wife and I got married, Back in 2015, we were in the US and we were living in San Francisco City and then we were moving to the suburbs near where Google and Stanford and Apple are. We bought our first home together, you know, which was amazing. It was fantastic. It was a small house. It was three bedrooms, two bathrooms, more than we could possibly imagine

Starting point is 00:34:09 filling. Now two kids later, it seems very small. But it was a good house. It was certainly on the cheaper end of what was going at the time. and similar to the lessons we've heard before it was a good house that we could see us holding for a long time and so when our family grew you know and we're fortunate to start growing that family a few years later we want to move into a bigger house we actually realized that unwittingly we had bought a house that we did not necessarily have to sell because the rental income we could

Starting point is 00:34:37 get from it was actually equal to about the interest payments that we'd be paying right so that was a huge kind of like, wow, because we could then actually go to a new house that was more what we needed, but we had to keep this as investment property. And because, and there are actually very favorable taxation laws, both in the US, but particularly here in Australia, we were able to keep onto that house, not necessarily paid in its capital gains, and have an asset which will hopefully hold on for many decades. I think we call that in the States like house hacking. It's kind of a term here. But I think buying a great investment that suits you to live moving out of it and keeping the house is wonderful when the stars align you

Starting point is 00:35:13 can be able to do that yeah it's a great term house hacking it's uh i'm going to remember that one i haven't heard that one before mate and i've heard many expressions in the property game over the years so i would i love that approach i want to now sort of segue into your life at domain because as i said in the intro you really are at the uh the intersection the crossroads of all things property in the in the shift that's happening from physical to digital uh yeah given your experience so far and combining your personal experience and the domain experience what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making around property and particularly property data given uh its emerging importance in the decisions that we make

Starting point is 00:35:54 i think the biggest investment mistake i see people make whether it's property or otherwise is believing they can time the market. I firmly believe that you can't time the market because markets ultimately move with factors you can't control, like wars and inflation and economies. And particularly the stock market, they move a lot with psychology. So you can only predict the market if you can predict both what's going to happen macroeconomically

Starting point is 00:36:19 and you can predict what's going to happen, how other people will respond to that. And I firmly believe that you cannot do that because if you did, you'd be amazing. You'd be a miracle worker. I think you can't do that. So you can get lucky. So I'm not saying you can't make money from it,

Starting point is 00:36:34 but I do think a lot of it is luck. And so for me, a lot of my investing thesis is valuing, sorry, investing, knowing that you cannot time the market, assuming you're going to buy at the peak and you might have to sell at a trough. Therefore, if you knew that, what would you do? And you do two things. You would try and invest for the long term

Starting point is 00:36:53 where it's something you can hold for at least five years, ideally 10 or more years, because pretty much if you buy at the peak of the market, and you sell at the bottom of the market, give it 10 years, you're probably still going to come out on top, whether it's stocks or property. The second thing is buying things with good fundamentals. I didn't talk about one of my other kind of like property investments

Starting point is 00:37:13 that didn't go so well, but the other one was I took a big bet on the Holden factory in South Australia, which, as many of you know, we shut down a few years ago. I kind of bet on that one-trick pony. And not to say that's not a great place for people to live, and there still is establishment there and there's work there, But for me, the investment thesis was that this car factory was going to grow. And I think when I look back at it, I mean, hindsight is 20-20, but I think that was an

Starting point is 00:37:38 overly risky investment thesis if you were going to hold for 10 or 20 years, because the likelihood is that that factory was not going to be around for 10 or 20 years, was being held up by government subsidies. And so for me, wherever possible, I try and buy for long term, because I think that's truly the only way, if you buy long term, a premium property, that's the only way that you can have no regrets. everywhere else, you're kind of at the mercy of the target of the market. 100% agree, and that's straight out of my playbook, because I've always said, and I've

Starting point is 00:38:06 done a lot of my own research on this, John, if you look at- Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I mean, if you look at property cycles over the years, it takes about 15 years for a particular location to go through a full cycle, so if you're holding a property for 15 years or more it doesn't matter when you buy the property exactly and and that is the absolute key there and and what that then changes to is that if you're serious about building equity and building wealth over time the best time to buy is every time you can and using the leverage that you spoke about earlier you're able to secure a much bigger value asset which then

Starting point is 00:38:48 using you know average growth rates over over time is still going to give you a great result without all of the stress and headache of trying to pick the bottoms and pick the tops and the chances you're going to miss it anyway. So some awesome learnings as far as that goes. Are there any other keys to being successful in property as you see it then on top of that long-term approach? Yeah, and I think this is very true of Domain and how I'm trying to structure my team.

Starting point is 00:39:14 Property is a local market. It's a very local market. So, yeah, you could invest in Australian property and there are ways to do that through real estate trusts or, you know, if you had, you know, tens of millions of dollars, you could buy 20 properties at random throughout Australia. But for most of us who are going to be buying, you know, one or a few properties at a time, it's very, very local,

Starting point is 00:39:33 which means you've got to know the local area. You know, where you buy on one block, that position on one block, how it faces, this proximity intersection, might be totally different from another house on the same block a little in two or three blocks away. The dynamics, the competitiveness, what is important, you know, what's happening with the schools, all these things are really, really important.

Starting point is 00:39:51 And so in general, I like to invest where I really take the time or me and my wife take the time to get to know the place well, to feel it, to walk around it, to get to the locals, to feel that sense of hope, to feel that there's a good long-term investment. And I think a lot of people get to mistakes where they invest either for their own home or for an investment home in areas where they're not yet familiar. That's one of the things we like to do with the Domain App, right, is encourage people to actually set up shortlists and just watch things over time and get to know an area and get to see what's selling and what comes to the market and how it is. That kind of like working out your own passive recognition

Starting point is 00:40:25 not only just helps you make better investment decisions, I think it's frankly a good recipe for having no regrets because you will still make bad decisions, particularly if you can't hold for a long time, knowing that you know everything you could have and not going, oh, jeez, if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have done what I did. that's the kind of investment that we want to avoid.

Starting point is 00:40:42 I totally agree. And in talking about the domain app, because I use them all, John, and I've got to say that the domain app is an absolute standout when it comes to the interface. I'm not being kind. I wouldn't be saying it if I didn't mean it. And you're absolutely right. What's enabled me to do is to get a really good sense

Starting point is 00:41:04 of what's happening in an area, the changes and the shifts that are happening both at a property precinct and an area level and that really easy user interface and the way the alerts do most of the work for me in telling me what's going on, then added to that with boots on the ground and actually walking the streets and getting a flavour for it, you've got a real sense of exactly where things are at and that familiarity that you spoke about, I totally agree, it's an absolute key as far as that's concerned. So what we're talking about then, I'd love you to expand on, you know, the domain property marketplace in terms of what's your vision, aims and goals for it in terms of where it's at and where it's heading. Sure.

Starting point is 00:41:52 Fundamentally, we can connect buyers with sellers and renters with landlords. That is the bread and butter of what we do. And I think it's a starting point for if you're trying to get a property, whether you're renting or buying. we want it to be really really easy for you to kind of research learn what are the best options for you to filter out whether it's by you know what school it maps to or you know various things you're looking for like a swimming pool we want it to be easy and we want that to kind of fit in your workflow of life so that like once you've done your search you set it up you just get a notification when something really matches it and then make it super easy to leave an inquiry

Starting point is 00:42:25 and super easy to map out your inspections in a Saturday all right so we want to really orient around renters and buyers and make sure they're very busy, they're very stressed, they've got lots to do, that it's just an easy and not even easy, it's a fun experience and you can do that with a partner and share your wishes with a partner. That's kind of what we do, right? And I think the other side of the marketplace is we want to make sure that people who are trying to sell or rent their home,

Starting point is 00:42:51 they know they're getting access to as many eyeballs as possible. And when they're trying to sell their house, anyone who's looking for a house in that area is going to find it because we've attracted those seekers and those renters, you know, to that area. And so when a vendor, when someone is trying to sell their house, lists, they know they're going to get a great set of eyeballs. So it's kind of like Marketplace 101. And so you think behind what's required there is we're constantly investing

Starting point is 00:43:15 in marketing and branding to make sure that both buyers and sellers know about domain. And they're using the app, and we're constantly trying to make the app and the experience and the notifications and the features even better so that people, when they spend their time, it's a great experience. And that's why we're proud of our app. We're proud of the rating on the App Store, you know, 4.7 and same with Android. And we're trying to make it better and better and better so it's easier, faster, more enjoyable, more informative, better outcomes for both sides of the marketplace.

Starting point is 00:43:40 Yeah, I love that. Yeah, go on, sorry. Yep. Well, I was just going to flip on the other side, which is as we've gone about that, the really important people who make this marketplace happen in physical sense is the agents. The agents are the folks who ultimately help the transaction, who educate the buyers and the sellers, and do all the really, really important work. And we believe firmly that this market needs agents, and agents leave this market in a better place by helping people more informed, by taking the stress out, by holding people's

Starting point is 00:44:08 hands. And as we've gone, and a lot of our work is actually to help educate agents how to help their sellers use our app and get on the marketplace and use our audience extensions, we've actually started building a whole lot of other products to help agents be more effective in half their time. So for example, agents are always looking for new leads that people are likely to buy their house. We've built like a lead generation tool called LeadScope, which helps them use their database and make it more intelligent. It helps help them sort their database in order of who's most likely to sell their house in the next 12 months. So they

Starting point is 00:44:41 can be more effective with their calling, with their meetings. We have a product called Real Time Agent, which is kind of like DocuSign. It kind of makes all the contracts, the paperwork that is necessary to be done in each state for property buying and selling can be done from someone's car, from an iPad, you know, on the move. You know, so try to save a lot of paper, save a lot of stress for agents. So we have all these different databases, information, tools, SMS check-in tools to kind of help them do, be twice as effective in half their time, meaning they can do what only they can do, which is educate buyers and sellers

Starting point is 00:45:12 and hopefully spend more time with their families. So that's kind of like a side business, which is now growing into a meaningful part of our revenue, which accompanies the main marketplace business in both residential and commercial. Yeah, I love it. Well, it's become a reasonably competitive space in recent years. So what do you see as being unique and different about Domain compared to the other players?

Starting point is 00:45:34 You know, we have some amazing competitors in this space. We have, you know, and I won't mention them all, but, you know, we have competitors like Homely, who really started off not as a real estate portal, but they start off just helping people understand more about their locale. It's just a great company. And then they figured out that actually they can list as well and people can list their homes with them.

Starting point is 00:45:54 And we have, you know, big competitors say that they get once through with realestate.com.au. Again, they are a similar business domain and they do some great work helping buyers and sellers find each other. And so I have a lot of respect for competition. I think competition ultimately is the best thing for the customer and it's ultimately good for us too. It makes us sharper.

Starting point is 00:46:12 It helps keep us on our toes, make sure we're bringing out the very best features trying to make sure that we have a feature that no one else has and also the customers are winners i think in terms of what we do really well at domain we really really want to make sure that agents feel loved and cared for ultimately they are the ones who need to be heroes not us they're the ones who are helping people sell their homes and helping people sell their homes at the lowest possible cost at the highest possible selling price right and so we're arming agents with insights with tools with data so they can help educate their customers. And that's something we take a lot of pride in. I think also our app

Starting point is 00:46:49 continues to try and be on the cutting edge. You know, we were the first to mark up with helping people map to schools. We have a wholly open century called All Homes, which is the Canberra portal. It's a wonderful company. We're constantly testing new features there. And it's all about helping people search quicker and search more effectively with less time and more fun. And we feel that we're on the cutting edge of that app experience and the web design experience. And so That's what I'm saying, that we try and be first place in the marketplace for. Yeah, absolutely love that, mate. And along that road, you're collecting an enormous amount of very useful data and information that can be curated.

Starting point is 00:47:25 So given that context, I'd love for you to give us your read of what the current marketplace is looking like, what the future is for interest rate changes and their ultimate impact on property in the short to medium term. Sure. So, I mean, I think interest rates and inflation are the big stories of the day. Again, this is, we're very fortunate to have our in-house economics team, you know, and we have a very close relationship with, you know, City Morning Herald, the Australian Financial Review, The Age. So, we are constantly looking at what reporters are saying, at what the data is saying, what our own internal systems are saying. Clearly, inflation is going up, and I think the Reserve Bank expected to go up to maybe about 7% before it comes down, and that's going to happen, you

Starting point is 00:48:11 into next year. So inflationary expectations are high. And related to that, interest expectations are also high. Obviously, it started at 0.1%. Now it's up to 0.75%. We've gone quite a long way up, or 0.85%, I should say. And I think the various predictions of that will end up in 2.5% sometime next year, maybe higher, maybe lower. No one really knows. But it's going that direction. I think we know from past history is that there's a relatively strong correlation between interest rates and house prices. Generally, as interest rates go up, house prices go down. And this, of course, is the motivation for raising interest rates

Starting point is 00:48:47 to kind of suppress the cost of housing and also to potentially reduce people's disposable income to suppress some of the inflationary pressures. And so that is likely to happen. Again, no one knows, has it already happened? Is there much more to come? No one knows, very hard to predict. But that is what we're anticipating going next 12 months.

Starting point is 00:49:07 I think, interestingly enough, that obviously makes things more of a buyer's market than a seller's market, which actually makes tools such as domain even more important. Because when the market's really good, yes, it helps to list on domain, but there's enough buyers that even if you just stuck a sign in front of your yard, people would find you, right? Because there's that many buyers trying to compete. in a more of a buyer's market where it's harder to sell, then you really need marketing tools like Domain and a lot of Domain's other extensions like using social media and our various print products that we have through the city where we held them otherwise.

Starting point is 00:49:39 These products are really important because there aren't as many buyers and they're less afraid of missing out. And so we actually become a lot more important in a market where things aren't as hot. And so that's what we're gearing up towards. How can we help agents compete for the listing and how can we help sellers sell

Starting point is 00:49:55 if buyers aren't as many or as interested. Yeah, I love it. That's exciting stuff. There's a school of thought that I've been researching this pretty closely in recent times that while rates are definitely on the rise in the short to medium term, there's also an equal opportunity potentially for rates to come back down again late next year and early the following year as a consequence of the fact

Starting point is 00:50:20 that a lot of the supply side shocks that are currently being experienced and boosting inflation are likely to settle down and that if we sort of don't release the handbrake through rates, the economy could very easily slip back into recessionary-type conditions. What's your read of that, and do you think that's a valid commentary? I think potentially. I do think that this inflation is a little different or this interest rate rising is a bit different

Starting point is 00:50:51 because we're coming from such a low rate of unemployment. uh where a lot of the risk of recession is maybe a little later than what it would have if you're raising rates and unemployment's already at six or ten percent right so i think there is hope that you could have whether it's a handbrake or a j curve or things like that where once you get over inflation you might want to return to the policies that we've had and have served what seems to serve the economy well the last 10 years of relatively low interest rates and relatively free investment I think the thing that argues against that is inflation may have some foundational causes, such as supply chain shocks related to COVID, related to particularly the cost of food and raw materials with the war in Ukraine. But even if it has the genesis in those things, it ultimately becomes about expectations and it becomes a spiral unto itself.

Starting point is 00:51:44 And I think economists describe this as like the wage inflation spiral, where because prices are going up and people are demanding more for wages, you have to put wages up, which means the costs go up, which means that prices go up. And soon of itself, that cycle takes hold, even if the fundamentals that led to that have actually been solved. And I think that's the fear that reserve banks around the world are going to have. And that is one reason why I think most economists are not predicting a J-curve recovery, but Basically, a Jacob recovery where interest rates would rapidly come down and inflation rapidly come down, but actually inflation coming down much more smoothly and it takes a lot more time.

Starting point is 00:52:20 And therefore, anything to do with interest rates having to stay high or come down slowly. Yeah, that's a good rate. It's going to be a very dynamic and interesting exercise as it unfolds because as you're right, there's the supply and demand side, but then as important is the sentiment side, as you've well pointed out. And if they're starting to focus on inflation and talking about wage increases, it can become self-fulfilling. So it's going to be very interesting to see how that pans out. Tell me something I'd like you to tell us a bit more about, some of the insights that are coming out of your rent and yield reports, which is something that Domain focuses on. Can you shed some light on what's coming out of those? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:05 I mean, let me just focus on rent and income. The key thing is vacancy rates are an all-time low. In some places like Canberra, like below 1%, there is just not enough rental stock, you know, to supply the market, you know, which is problematic. It means that for people who are not in a position to buy or desire to rent, that the cost of that is going up, that's adding to inflation, and you have the situation

Starting point is 00:53:28 where people cannot find housing. And I think a lot of that for us comes back to solving some of the fundamentals of making sure there's enough stock of housing for both rental and for purchase. And that's something that we're pretty passionate about. Obviously, that's a lot of related issues, whether it's kind of stamp duty or how we think about development approvals.

Starting point is 00:53:45 But we think ultimately great countries like Australia, it's very easy to not have enough stock. And we've, even in the situation, we haven't had much migration the last few years and still there's not enough stock to satisfy the markets. And I think as we try and grow the capitals like Sydney and Melbourne and Canberra and Brisbane and Perth, we want to make these big global centres,

Starting point is 00:54:05 we need to make sure there's enough housing supply and some of these rental shocks have proved to us that actually the housing supply is not as much as it could be to support a bigger and more economically viable city. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's a really vexing issue because for decades now, the governments of all levels have pretty much handballed the issue of housing supply into the private sector.

Starting point is 00:54:27 And the private sector is very much a just-in-time type of approach to anything where they won't build it unless there's a very proven demand and if there's any doubt about that then it doesn't happen so you know what's your thoughts on whether and if governments of various levels should start intervening in relation to housing supply and if so you know what's your thoughts on how that should be best be done yeah i think and i'll speak for myself but i think demand has a similar position i think we pass and believe it's responsible government to kind of ensure adequate housing for their citizens at all levels and that's housing people buy housing people sell uh housing people buy housing people rent uh housing

Starting point is 00:55:08 for people to you know if they can't afford housing kind of public development housing so these are all responsibilities of government now i would say where government has tended to intervene is actually more on the demand side which is things such as first home buyers grant or you know recently in the federal election there was the idea floated by the liberal party around um you know allowing people to use their superannuation you know to put a deposit at home and these are these are things to be considered they but because they're more demand side and with supply constraint they may have unintentional consequences such as just shifting around the deck chairs and just pushing house prices up right so we firmly believe that supply is where is to be

Starting point is 00:55:46 is to be to be to be assisted to be helped and i think governments at all levels have responsibility I think a local government, you know, if I think of where I'm in, in Karingai, I think the Karingai Council has a responsibility to ask ourselves the question, how can we, how and where can we supply more housing in a way that doesn't disrupt the experience or doesn't overly disrupt the experience for existing residents, but allows us to have a bigger council, a bigger city, a more vibrant metropolis. I think state and local government and federal governments should always be looking at things such as taxation. You know, in taxation, obviously, it's important for the government to get their share, and that's how we ultimately fund the government. But taxation always brings some kind of impact, because if someone wants to buy a house and someone wants to sell a house, we want to help them meet. But if stamp duty is too high or too onerous or too upfront, that meeting is not going

Starting point is 00:56:34 to happen, because one or both are going to get scared away. So these are things where the government, I think, needs to be constantly looking at and demanding, and myself will constantly have a voice in China. We ultimately want to see more stock and more transactions take place. And so this is obviously a good thing for business, but we think it's the right thing for the country as well. Yeah, totally agree. So jumping into the future then, what sort of exciting new initiatives and products that are leveraging AI and automation are we likely to see from Domain and the Data Head then, John? Yeah, I think there's a few different kind of products.

Starting point is 00:57:06 I spoke about the product called Leadscope, which is really helping agents find the next listing. um that's really really important because particularly in a market that's not so hot um if you're a real estate agent the best thing you can do is try and find property to sell and then you're going to actually sell it but the hardest thing is actually finding someone to sell and if you can know where where who is likely to sell in your database then you can actually try and pursue pursue those people that's kind of one thing we're working on um we're constantly looking for ways for agents to build their brand uh you know so we're working on tools where agents can differentiate themselves,

Starting point is 00:57:40 tell a bit more of their story, advertise themselves so that people who are looking to sell their house could find them and go, wow, that looks like a really great agent I could work with.

Starting point is 00:57:48 I'd like to have a conversation with them. We're constantly working on the search experience. We really want to make sure that if you know what you're looking for, I think the domain app

Starting point is 00:57:57 is very, very helpful because there's all the filters there, the geography is there, you do the search, do the notifications, and you're off to the races. I think there's some really interesting things to do

Starting point is 00:58:06 using AI, using kind of questionnaires, to really help people understand what they might be looking for so they can search better. And so we've got some really exciting things that we've been working on there in terms of making that search experience more fun and more engaging. So that's using a bit of market research, that's using AI, they're the kind of things we'd love to pursue.

Starting point is 00:58:24 Yeah, exciting times. I'm loving it at the moment. As a property person, it's just so easy for me now to get access to a whole raft of information that helps me make much better decisions in that regard. Mate, I've really enjoyed that exercise and dive into the world of property. But now I want to segue into what I sort of affectionately refer to as the ambush round, which are just the past four podcast questions

Starting point is 00:58:54 that the listeners always like to glean your words of wisdom on. And to kick that off, what's your favourite quote and why, John? A fair quote is a Gandhi quote, which is, be the change that you want to see. And basically, it comes from a story about where a mother was trying to get her son to stop eating sugar. She asked Gandhi to tell the son to do that because the son reflected Gandhi. And Gandhi would not do that until he had actually given up sugar himself. So whether you like or hate sugar, or whatever your beliefs on those things, I think it's

Starting point is 00:59:29 a great reminder, particularly for people like myself who came from consulting, where it's easy to tell, it's hard to do, and it reminds me that if I want to tell people, I need to do first. Yeah, I love it, mate. That's awesome. Well, on the literary front then, what's the top book that you'd recommend we read and why? What I read last year was called The Five Regrets of the Die. It's a really interesting, actually, Australian book of a lady called Brody Ware, who used to work in hospices and I spend a lot of time looking after people who are in their last months or years of life

Starting point is 01:00:01 and asking them about what do they regret, what do they value. And I think for me, it's an interesting almost investment principle, a life principle, which is start with the end in mind, which is when you look back at your life, what you want to achieve, what you want to try. And there's no right answer for everyone, but there are some principles, which is her top five regrets. But I found it very, very helpful to ask myself the question, hey, I'm privileged to be in the prime of my life where everything's possible.

Starting point is 01:00:25 I've got an amazing job. We're back in Australia. I've got a young family. all about my life and so much of my life is still to be written. What are the habits and the principles and the things I want to focus on now so that when I've lived my life, I can look back with no regrets. Yeah, that's awesome. Another awesome little segue there into one of the other questions

Starting point is 01:00:44 and that is what's a personal happy habit, rewarding ritual or daily discipline of yours that you believe has contributed most to your success today? one which has been helpful is the confluence of uh running and reading and so i struggle to read books i much prefer audiobooks and i don't like exercise it's very hard but i do like jogging particularly outside slowly and so what i've tried to do is combine that where i try to do it a few times a week where you know i've got my gym clothes i get changed i put on my gloves i put to my ear pods i listen to audiobook or a podcast like your own pussy uh and uh i have this time

Starting point is 01:01:23 where i'm like enjoying nature listen to book at the same time and i'm not running too hard but just hard enough to get a sweat but uh and and really listen and enjoy the book and enjoy the break and so for me it's been combining those two things the exercise and the learning uh into a bit of an escape that's had has made that habit sticky i've had that for a few years now yeah that's a great way to combine two two pleasures and make them both both enjoyable at the same time uh just to close out on the the ambush series then mate what's the worst and best piece of investment advice that you've ever received today i think the worst piece of advice around things that involve timing the market or basically believing you're smarter than everyone

Starting point is 01:02:04 else you may be smarter than everyone else but if you're smarter than everyone else you might we might be smarter about predicting their psychology and what they will do. So in general, I tend to disavow advice that relies on me being smarter than everyone else. I do think the best piece of advice is around kind of buying and holding and not timing the market,

Starting point is 01:02:22 which is the whole idea of like, try and really go for the long-term. And if you're going for the long-term, be fully invested and be as leveraged as you feel comfortable, particularly if kind of you're younger in your career. Those kind of best advice has kind of been what has pieced together

Starting point is 01:02:35 kind of like me and my family's investing. and even in a time where, you know, we've seen stocks drop 40% over the last six months, you know, I don't really regret being fully invested because I know I'm not going to touch those things for 20, 30 years and that will look like a blip when I look back in time. So they're the advice that I've received.

Starting point is 01:02:51 Yeah, mate. Timeless advice right there. A great way then to bring us sort of the close of the conversation today. So I'd love you to summarise what are the key takeaways for property players and investors that you think we need to be taking action on?

Starting point is 01:03:09 You know, I think everyone has a different journey in their property playbook. I think, you know, probably the thing that I'd say to people in property is you can't start too early. So like myself, I had the privilege to make my first investment when I was 18. And if I could go back in time,

Starting point is 01:03:26 I'd invest more earlier on, right? So it's never too late to start and it's never too early to start with our mind. And that's where I'd encourage folks, particularly as it comes to buying their own home, if that's their intent, or investing in investment property, if that's their intent. You know, putting my professional domain hat on, we want to be helpful to everyone in our cycle. Buyers, sellers, renters, landlords, if you haven't checked us out, we think we have a great app. We have a great proposition.

Starting point is 01:03:52 We're nationwide. So, you know, we'd love you to try us and to work with us, whether it's, you know, particularly when you're working with an agent. And, you know, a commensurate to that, if you're using the app, if you have any feedback or things where you wish, like don't hesitate to reach out. I'd love to take your feedback and make sure we're really meeting your needs

Starting point is 01:04:09 and at what stage of the property cycle you're in. Mate, beautifully said. And I would certainly be encouraging everyone listening to jump on the domain app and the domain website. There's just some fantastic information at all levels from the macro to the micro that you can take advantage of. So make sure you do that.

Starting point is 01:04:27 And, John, I really appreciate you sharing your personal and professional story with us today. There's some great insights there, and you've been very generous with your time. Thanks, Bushy. Thanks for what you do in terms of not just from a property point of view, which is very important to me and to me, but I think that the message that you have,

Starting point is 01:04:45 and I know we're kindred spirits, right, in terms of how we think of investing and what that can mean for self and family and leadership. I think you do a wonderful thing of being an amplifier and a multiplier of these messages that people need to hear. and ultimately it's not really about investing, it's about the lives that people can lead and the impact they can have so thanks for the work you do on that

Starting point is 01:05:02 people like yourself are so valuable in creating an ecosystem and a better society for us all Well I really appreciate those thoughts from yourself John you're a wonderful walking example of true servant leadership in action John and it's something

Starting point is 01:05:19 that I always have and always will continue to aspire to because it's an evolution and changing exercise. So we're looking forward to continue to watch your journey in that regard, mate, and looking forward to getting back on the show on a regular basis to impart some of the fantastic insights

Starting point is 01:05:38 that you've shared with us today. Thanks, Bush. You're very kind. Thank you, John. All right, mate. Okay, mate. I'll speak soon. To get a summary of all this investment gold in the show notes,

Starting point is 01:05:51 just email me on hello at khgroup.com.au. That's H-E-L-L-O at khgroup.com.au. Or check us out at www.bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested. I look forward to joining you next week for another episode of the Get Invested podcast. So thanks for listening. And as always, dream as if you live forever and live as if you die tomorrow. Thank you.

Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: John Foong on inspiring confidence in the property Domain

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