Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: John Manciameli on optimising your investment capacity

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

Learn how to advance and accelerate your property investment approach with John Manciameli. John Manciameli is a successful property investor turned finance broker, who had 11 properties by the age of 32. It's a long way from his poor upbringing, where he bought his family's first stove with his paper run money at the age of 12. As the co-founder of Hunterwood Solutions and Builder Finder, John has made it his life’s work to help hard working Aussies fulfil their finance and property aspirations. He's also the author of An Insider's Guide To SMSF Secrets - The Little Known Cash Flow Secrets To Building A Multi-Million Dollar Property Portfolio. John shares his story, along with ways to use strategy, finance and data to optimise your property investment performance.  Tune in! You can also watch on YouTube https://youtu.be/xXvK-2zh2XE. Book giveaway Book giveaway: As a special give away to Get Invested Listeners, If you want to get a copy of John’s book: An Insider's Guide To SMSF Secrets - The Little Known Cash Flow Secrets To Building A Multi-Million Dollar Property Portfolio, simply email [e-mail] with your answer to the question: ‘How will this Insider’s guide help you?’ and John’s team will forward it to you.  NEW - Join the Property Hub community on Substack! Sign up to get Australian property news, opinion and episodes in your inbox: https://propertyhubau.substack.com/  Three easy ways to Get Invested right now: 1. Subscribe to this podcast now, if you haven’t already, and get the inspiration delivered to your podcast feed each week 2. Get a copy of my book, Get Invested, for FREE, and find out what it takes for you to invest in living more, working less. Go to: https://knowhowproperty.com.au/get-invested-free-ebook  3. Join the Get Invested community. Each month Bushy sends a free and exclusive monthly email full of practical ‘Self, Health and Wealth’ wisdom that our current Freedom Fighter subscribers can’t wait to get each month. Just visit bushymartin.com.au, scroll to the bottom of the page and sign up. About Get Invested, a Property Hub show Get Invested is the leading weekly podcast for Australians who want to learn how to unlock their full ‘self, health and wealth’ potential. Hosted by Bushy Martin, an award winning property investor, founder, author and media commentator who is recognised as one of Australia’s most trusted experts in property, investment and lifestyle, Get Invested reveals the secrets of the high performers who invest for success in every aspect of their lives and the world around them. Get Invested is part of the Property Hub podcast channel, your home for property investment insights, inspiration and stories from Australia’s top property experts, investors, leaders and analysts. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Google Podcasts to get every Get Invested episode each week for free, and also get full access to RealtyTalk, Australia’s top online property show for red hot property investing news and insights direct from property industry leaders and influencers. Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, show producer Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast network DM Media.  For business and partnership enquiries, send an email to: [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From day one, I realized it was all about creating some form of passive income. Now, that could either be professionally through our businesses, like our mortgage-broking businesses, Bushy, or creating passive income through rental income. So every day I get up and say to myself, what can I do today to create passive income? Welcome to Get Invested on the Property Hub podcast channel, the leading weekly show to help you unlock your full self-health and wealth potential. I'm your host, Bushy Martin, and each week I go deep with the best investors, experts, leaders and founders to find out what it takes to break free from the grind, discover freedom

and live by design. Subscribe now and join me and get invested in the life you really want. Let's get started. Hi Freedom Fighters. What do you focus on when you're looking to finance a property or add to your portfolio? Is it the rate, the fees, your familiarity with the bank, or perhaps the ease and speed of the process? Now, while all of these are what I would consider to be secondary considerations, as you'll hear today, they shouldn't be your primary focus. Unfortunately for many borrowers, these are the things that most banks, lenders, and unfortunately way too many brokers focus on.

But they're missing the point. While it's easy to try and condense your loan option comparisons down to the lowest common denominator of the interest rate, without realising it, you're actually selling yourself short. Why do I say this? Because as a borrower, you need to look beyond cost to capacity. Now, this is particularly important for investors where your biggest lending asset is your buying capacity. Now, I can hear you thinking, what do you mean, Bushy? Aren't all the banks and lenders are the same, so why not just compare my options based on the lowest rate? Well, my response to this is a resounding no. You may be surprised to hear that there's a 55%

variation across the 40-odd residential lenders in terms of how much they're going to let you borrow. Now, that's the difference between being able to secure a $500,000 loan and a $775,000 loan. And assuming you've got the required equity deposit and the cash flow affordability, this sizable increase in your property purchase power will add hundreds of thousands of dollars to your nest egg in the long term. So you can achieve significantly higher property results just by shifting your focus from cost to capacity or as I like to say it's not about the rate it's all about the reach. Now a high borrowing capacity loan may incur a slightly higher rate but if you're an investor your interest costs are all totally tax deductible so this shouldn't be a

barrier. And in today's current lending climate, where rising rates have significantly reduced your buying capacity, your reach is more important than ever. You can actually make or break your ability to secure your next property. So if this has caught your attention, then you're really going to love our discussion on how to improve your buying capacity with today's special guest, John Mancimelli, along with his expert hands-on tips on buying investment property and building your portfolio, along with the exciting new world of builder brokers that he's pioneering together with his great wife. Now, like yours truly, John's a property investor turned finance broker who's made it his life's work to help you and other hardworking Aussies with your finance

needs and your property aspirations. John's business, Hunterwood Solutions, is a full service financial services company with over 50 years combined experience, and he and his wife are the founders of BuilderFinders. But as you'll hear today, all of this has happened after he accumulated a sizable portfolio of 11 properties by the time he was 32. So we're really looking forward to unpacking the highs, lows, and learnings of his personal investment journey.

And while we're talking about sharing actual hands-on investor experiences, if you or someone you know wants to share your unique property journey for the benefit at others here on Get Invested, just reach out to me personally at bushy at knowhowproperty.com.au. Now, if you've been listening to Get Invested in recent times, you've also started to notice the common thread of property investors becoming finance breakers like I did many years ago. As we've all learned that success in property is very much a game of finance and clever finance structuring is the fuel that powers your property potential and ultimate performance. So I'm really

looking forward to this deep dive conversation with a like-minded investor and highly regarded and well-respected industry colleague so welcome and let's get invested john wow what introduction bushy thank you so much i'm i'm so humbled to be on the show so yeah well the feelings mutual mate i'm i'm humbled to have you on i've uh been an admirer of what you've done in the industry for a long period of time john so uh it's a great opportunity for us to really share some some of the gold that you've picked up over the years with aspiring listeners in the property space. But, mate, for those that have been living under a rock

and haven't seen you in the many places that you've been, obviously, educating people on how to do things properly, what do you do differently? And more importantly, why do you do what you do, John? Thanks, Bushy. My life story, I'm not sure if it's that exciting, but it's an interesting one. I started in the pharmaceutical industry 10 years ago oh sorry my first 10 years in

professional services was in pharmaceuticals and I ended up that period of time in operating theaters with neurosurgeons doing spinal fusion and spinal fusion selling engineering implants and you know the logical succession to that career is to get into fuck it's break ring so well i want to jump straight in there because there seems to be a big chasm between the the big farmer world and and finance breaking uh what was it that triggered the why did you get into the farmer in the first place and then what what triggered your interest into the finance arena now the recession you had to have really caused me to look around and i always thought health was an industry that would never would be recession proof this is how old i am you couldn't find work

in banking or merchant banking back in the day and when i'd come back from living in milan i'd seen this job saying you know pharmaceutical rep let's sell science or pharmacy pharmacy um yeah health solutions and that was an amazing career i learned a lot but um in answer to your question i read this amazing book that everyone knows about now called rich dad poor dad and uh i was doing deals in operating theaters trying to secure properties and uh amazing story when i was a pharmacy rep and going around to various gps i made it a bit of a fun game to see how cheap i could find these properties and i think the cheapest i've found which it was a thirteen thousand dollar townhouse yeah just outside of canberra thirteen thousand dollars

yeah thirteen thousand i thought this is all this is too good to be true you know that bloke kiyosaki what does he know and uh yeah so uh amazing story so it's the original question what i did different i know i think from a professional perspective from day one i realized it was all about creating some form of passive income now that could either be professionally through our businesses like our mortgage-broking business is bushy or creating passive income through rental income So every day I get up and say to myself, what can I do today to create passive income?

I know it sounds silly, but it's a daily habit that does make a difference. And so the purpose of my life has been to help people. I come from a very, very poor ethnic background and I want people to lift themselves out of there because this is the best country in the world and the opportunities here are insane compared to what you can see overseas.

So sorry for being so passionate about it, but the opportunities are there, and let's go and get it. Yeah, don't apologise, mate. I 100% agree with you. And I had my own Kiyosaki moment way back in, I think it was 1997 from memory. Robert Kiyosaki was actually in Adelaide at the time, and I got dragged along to see him. And I'll never forget him saying that the moment passive income becomes

a part of your life, your life will change. and it sounds very similar for you. Overnight, I started to look at the world completely differently, John. A light bulb moment, right? Absolute light bulb moment. So he's got a lot to blame for, Robert Keyes, huh? Yeah, he certainly does.

The mongrel made me get into a mortgage broker. God, he wouldn't want to do that. But before we sort of, I'd love to unpack your own property journey in a bit more detail, but before we do that, can you tell us something unique or interesting interesting about you that you've never shared before in public ah okay something i haven't

shared before in public but this is interesting but i was born in new guinea and i was born under the united nations flag so i could have been anything in the world and so i could have been english swiss american and god bless my mum she made me uruguay so i love uruguay great cool little country if you haven't been there very cool people but in terms of the ability to live in Switzerland or be you know be American or whatever yeah so there you go and my mum was registered as the very first Uruguayan ever to ever go to New Guinea in the late 60s and and her letters actually got published in the in the Montevideo Herald and many years ago when I went to visit my grandparents

they actually brought out the newspaper articles on the front cover and there was me in in color actually there's a photo of me standing beside this little new guinean native girl and her full on blown you know feathers out of their hair and stuff like that and me wearing these uh uruguayan colors of a football team and that was just the clash of clashes of multiculturalism exploding in the late 60s and an amazing amazing letter but um i love that mate i actually worked in new guinea for a couple of years myself uh way way back in the early 80s so i worked for an ex key up or patrol officer who got the golden handshake and decided to stay on and he married a a um one of the locals uh who was related to michael samari at the time who was the prime

minister for for many years and uh i was the bunny who became his company architect so i worked in port morsby i spent some time in a little spot called toothy on the northeast coast and spent some time up in Rabaul because that's where his wife was from. What an amazing country, mate. Yeah. I don't know whether you've got fond memories of the place, but it's just a – Yeah, definitely want to go back and fish the Sea Peak River.

Another thing people don't know about is I'm a mad fisherman, so if you love me, if you want to get on my good side, tell me you love alfaro mayas and fishing and I'm done. I'll just sign on the dotted line. But, yeah, Sea Peak Art is very, very cool. Yeah. It's very underrated. And the other interesting thing about New Guinea is it was the foundation

of all the Pacific Islands and the vegetation that went out into the islands like Fiji and the Cook Islands and stuff. So it's New Guinea that's known as the second Amazon who really provided the catalyst of the vegetation that went out in that direction. So amazing, amazing place. A very rich country. I think there's 350-odd different languages in New Guinea.

And let's face it, 50 years ago, they were cutting off each other's head and killing each other. and so they've come a long way in a very short space of time but a really interesting country to spend some time mate so we'll talk about that some other time but just shifting the focus a little bit given that background and you mentioned you came from a fairly humble background if you look back on your life so far what challenging event has brought about your greatest learnings and your biggest changes then? Yeah so I grew up in a very poor household in back in the day in Leichhardt in Sydney was very much an immigrant working class suburb and my father was a truck

driver and my mum was a bookkeeper and we did it really tough, Bushy. There were times when I even had to give all of my paper run, do you remember that, paper run money to my parents because the stove blew up and I remember giving them all the money because my mum was crying, we didn't have money, makes me emotional being about it, to pay for it. And so I started realising that I better not learn my money habits from my parents and ultimately their relationship ended and and at time was so young i thought it was all about money but later on in life i knew it was more to it than just money but it really set it set in stone that i had to master this thing called money yeah particularly when i was having cold showers in winter after my parents divorced and i was

living with my mom and she couldn't afford to replace you know the heater so when you when you get that sort of you know toughness that creates you can either bend and buckle and in just and become a victim or you go the other way thankfully i went the other way and put some steel in my spine and said right what do we do to get out of this bloody mess yeah yeah and so um a journey started where outside of formal education from university i started looking for ways to improve like everyone else and i started reading the books and going to those seminars in the early 90s and And I always thought if I can just walk away with one gold nugget, I'll learn something.

And so all these great books that are now classics, you know, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, all those are sitting in my library out there. And I just became a sponge. And the obvious thing that came out of every single one of them was this concept of creating some sort of trail income or income that gets created where you're not expending the energy. And so property, I realised from everyone that I interviewed, not interview but became sort of mentors informally was always a massive component

of their wealth so i thought all right i better master that and then um when it came to shares i realized that you can rent shares out for a living and it's right in covered calls and i thought wow you know everyone buys shares for it to grow up to go up in value but little do people realize you can actually rent shares out for a living yeah and so i yeah started this journey and after I finished my medical healthcare industry career, I made it my last mission to start a business where I could go out there, just like you, Bushy, trying to help people as much as possible to change their life.

Not as easy done, though, Bushy, as you know. No, but I think the simple story is we can lead a horse to water, we can't make a drink, but at least if we're showing them where the dam is and where the river is that they can drink, then it's giving them an opportunity, John. And it's not a mirage. It really is there. 100%.

You and I both know if you do the right things, and it's not an easy journey, but it's a very rewarding journey at the end of the day. So I'd love to dive into that a little bit now, and I want to go way back, mate. When you were starting to do the reading and you're looking your property, what were your initial fears and feelings of concern about investing in property before you actually got in?

Can you remember? Yeah, like everything that your listeners are going through right now, it could be anything from do I really deserve, am I worthy of being wealthy, which is, believe it or not, a lot of people still don't think they are worthy of that lifestyle they're thinking of, right through who do I trust to start the journey, right through to how does lending work, right through to what sort of property should i be buying and as you know mate there was never any one that you could really go to like you that could put the whole jigsaw together you kind of went here and went there and back in the day there was this thing called the residex reports and you

would remember that bushy i do mate i do yeah those uh for those listeners who are not as old as i am used to be able to buy these reports and um my wife working at qantas we'd jump on a plane and we literally jumped on a plane seven times before we bought in Brizzy because we were checking out the suburbs that you could get in that Brizzy Dex top 100 postcode predictions or something like that. So a lot of feet on the ground, a lot of laughter, a lot of tears. But, yeah, just really going out there and just be absolutely determined to try and make it happen.

And we did get a bit of help. I can't take all the credit. But Lynette's father, my father-in-law, he was an old-school Croatian builder who built these beautiful townhouses. You don't get them built like that anymore, like double-bred, huge townhouse. Yeah. But we bought one at a daughter's price, and with that,

we were able to use some of that equity to leverage. So I'm not standing here saying I had this amazing journey from poverty. I did actually have, at one point in my life, a little bit of help and made it work for me. It sounds so good anyway. Mate, a lot of people have similar opportunities and don't follow through, mate. So you've really paid your father-in-law a great compliment

by achieving what you have. But I'd love for you to sort of then take us through your property journey a little bit because, you know, to put 11 properties together by the time you're 32 is no mean feat in anyone's language. and you talked about the $13,000 townhouse in Canberra, which I thought my first property was cheap, and that was $84,000 at $13,000. That's just...

Yeah, outside of Canberra. Yeah, so I didn't even end up buying that because I thought this is just too good to be true. Yeah. But, yeah, it was a combination of all sorts of properties, you know, that I thought at the time had capital growth prospects. I wasn't... I was probably, to my detriment,

not focused on the cash flow as much as I should have been. Yeah. because from an early age, and this was a big mistake, it kept being drummed in my head that, you know, taxes, you're paying too much tax, you're becoming paying too much tax, and therefore you need to do something to reduce your tax, which was completely against what Kiyosaki was saying. Yeah.

So, yeah, those 11 properties were pretty good, but could have done better. Everything's easy in hindsight. I think the important thing there, though, is that, you know, I say a lot of, I don't know about you, I say a lot of investors who are looking for the perfect property and therefore they waste years before they even get onto the starting grid. Whereas if it's, as long as the major parameters are there, it's never going to be perfect. And time can be a great benefactor when it comes to the property exercise. Talk us briefly through, you know, how your portfolio did progress

and share some of the good, the bad and the ugly on that journey, if you don't mind. Yes, sure, mate. So we used a lot of those properties to help us upgrade our own or occupied house. So there was a time when we had the kids and we went, right, it's big as those townhouses were. We needed to boom into a house.

And we moved, we were very lucky. We bought in a place called Sylvania Waters. Yep. which is a lovely non-trendy suburb an affluent suburb of sydney and um yeah so we sold quite a bit of that portfolio and every again you look back and go i shouldn't have sold it but it helped us get to this point um and then i've since sold that house in sylvania waters and i'm now living in a beautiful um tidal waterfront in a suburb called yaoi bay in sydney and i finally got my dream home even though i've got a big mortgage and so i'm exposing my warts and all here it's

it could have gone the other way where we could have gone okay uh we'll buy a house and have no debt or let's live the dream the sydney dream for most people is to be on the wall near the water and i love my fishing so i've got a little tinny sitting in the back there um i don't get to use it that much but in terms of the journey along the way the biggest mistakes i made was i somehow started believing property sprigas and i bought three of my properties were off the plan and they're rubbish absolute rubbish so we'll talk about this more in the podcast mate but yeah biggest biggest things i'll i've learned is just try and um never never buy off the plan or brand new and i apologize to anyone who has or is selling those things right

now so please refuse apologies but yeah i look back now i've held those for 10 years and they've hardly grown and i'll maybe just be able to get my money back if not a little bit more but the opportunity cost as you know bushy was quite huge so had i bought one of the normal house say in brisbane instead of that off the plant apartment in brisbane you know it would have been many many hundreds of thousands of dollars better off yeah but it's it's an old story though it's it's the lessons we learn that then improve the journey from that point on and it's obviously often our biggest obstacles that give us those learnings john so i really appreciate you sharing that but i'd also love you if you can remember what was your investment strategy when you first

started out and how has it evolved over time as your knowledge and comfort with the whole exercises has increased it was pretty simple mate just get as much property as i can it was really my theory there was no science behind it it's just all i knew is that anyone who knew it was rich they had this thing called property and let's go off and get it and so i attended the seminars and some of them were developers selling their own stock others were you know guys selling education courses but really it was just build that asset base and i knew at the time i was so young that even if i stuffed up you know over time if i held it for 20 30 years i'd be okay yeah and and like like everyone's portfolio you have some that even if you try and

stuff it up they grow spectacularly and they just do their thing and then others you just go what was i thinking you know but action bushy that's the thing you know in the end it all sort of washed out could i have done better absolutely but i've learned so much along the way and the journey now is one where i only use data now data data data is i will never believe anyone's opinion i will never believe the media if i can't prove something by the use of data where there's a positive correlation coefficient with capital growth forget it it's it's just not gonna it's just not gonna happen you know i love that mate no it's yeah because opinion is very cheap uh but the data doesn't lie and i want to drill into some of that data uh shortly when we we get

into that but uh if we were if you were looking back on on your journey so far then mate if you are starting out again what would you invest in differently if anything i probably would have focused a bit more on regional um we're going to talk about this in a moment i hope but there is so much opportunity in regional australia and back in the day you know you probably people still saying this you know don't you know buy near the cbd buy near the beach you know don't buy in regional and the data behind this couldn't be further from the truth there is yeah so now knowing the data and then using regressive coefficient analysis we now know for a fact at least going back to 1990 anyway that the regional markets do track capital city markets

yeah so for those listeners who do have what may have may seem to be a modest budget say 350 and even less like you've got you guys have got a wonderful opportunity if you can open up your eyes and just trust the data and i've got i've got a i've got a um if anyone's interested i've got I've got a wonderful article I've sent out to my database talking about data and how it tracks regional markets do track and sometimes outperform the capital city markets. So it's, and I take no credit for that. I commissioned some work from a wonderful,

humble gentleman called Jeremy Shepard from DSR, or now known as Suburb Finder. Yep. Amazing service if you want to subscribe to that, DSR, or he's turning that into Suburb Finder. So I got Jeremy to create all these articles to help me understand how to use data because I'm an idiot, but he's not. And amazing.

It was just amazing. So, yes, I would have bought in regional Australia. And that could be Wollongong. That could be Wagga Wagga. Far North Queensland right now, Bushy. Wow, what a place to be investing. Yeah. You know, the yields are great.

You can often find houses, not units or townhouses, but houses that ape themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's probably what I would have done differently, Bushy. What about you, mate? Let's ask you, what would you have done differently? Very similar, actually, mate, because we probably would turn

into the same exercise. I just would have started earlier than what I did, number one, because time is a massive factor in your results if you're buying the right property in the right way in the right place. So I would have started a lot earlier. I would have avoided some of the procrastination. I tend to be a bit of a, what's the word, mate, analysis paralysis is often what I suffer from. So you can sort of bury yourself in too much data to the point where you don't do anything and you don't do anything quickly enough.

So I sort of learned to temper that over time. So that's probably the exercise that I would, but taking the action, as you said before, mate, that is the key piece in this whole thing. You won't get it 100% right, but as I know you're about to share with us, given the importance of location on the exercise, rather than worrying about the colour of the skirting and the tiles and the splashback in the kitchen, if you put your energy into the data that's telling you what's happening in that location, that's the thing that's going to drive a lot of your results down the track.

But before we sort of get into this, because I'm liking where this is going already, and you've worked with a lot of investors yourself over the years what what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people making around both borrowing money and investing in property yeah in your experience i think the same what you're saying i think a couple of things come to mind just on top of my head taking advice from well-meaning friends and family who really their only understanding is possibly their own home maybe one investment property so that couldn't that can be so damaging to your ultimate portfolio and your wealth creation all right so i see that often and you would see that too that you know they're well-meaning

father auntie successful business person that's an uncle may have given some advice it's just not correct yeah that's that's one that i see uh the second one is just sentiment you know you can feel it people go oh no i better not buy now oh because i'm reading this and i'm feeling this from what people at work i'm reading it in the media and and not realizing that that sentiment is if you're going to follow the herd you're just going to get what the herd is always going to get their life yeah you're going to be 95 you're going to be a 95 percenter yeah 100 and i mean the greatest living investor warren buffett uh you know that that famous old cliched saying you know be greedy when people are being fearful and be

fearful when people are being greedy uh it's it's never uh been more appropriate than what we're currently seeing given that the media is haven't got too many other things to scare us about now mate so property and interest rates have become a punching bag that uh is being used regularly to scare the living hell out of all of us so that we one keep focusing on the news but two don't do anything else. So I think you're spot on there. Now, I know something that I really like about how you operate in the finance space is that you're a big proponent of power brokers. So for those that don't even know what a power broker is, can you talk to us about how a power broker is important in your mortgage brokers team and how they can actually improve your buying capacity?

Thanks, Bushy. Thanks for bringing this out to the worldwide audience. It's a new player in the mortgage brokering industry, so a para broker, P-A-R-A. It's a bit like parallel to the financial planning industry where a financial planner might have a para planner. So what a para broker is is typically someone who has extensive experience in banking and lending,

but that person may not have done all the qualifications to become a licensed credit advisor or a mortgage broker. And so here you are, you've got someone with, say, 20 years' worth of banking experience at ANZ, CBA, insert your own bank, and what they can do is they can support the mortgage broker in doing a deeper dive and a broader analysis of your lending options. Now, let me put this into context, and this is what happens,

as you know, Bushy, in the life of a mortgage broker. A mortgage broker, the good ones, run off their feet with inquiries. And what typically happens is we all want to help that person, but we may not have the time to do the deep analysis that's required. Now, as Bushy alluded to right at the start, it's not just about the interest rate, but it could also be about the credit policies that can help you move forward. Yeah. now if you've got six inquiries like i've had today it becomes a task of trying to meet everyone's expectations and almost choosing which ones that you want to help and you want to help them all don't get me wrong so rather than saying no what we're suggesting is why don't you think

about recruiting a power broker and paying for that power broker in my case my power broker's charge $700. I don't get anything out of it. I just use the money to pay them. And what you've done is you've recruited your broker with extra manpower. So what's going to happen is that broker that you trust is no longer at the precipice of saying yes or no. They're going to say, right, Bob and Jane have just got me the resources I need to go off to my business development manager at macquarie pepper and amp to workshop your probationary period as a contractor with a with a loan to value ratio that's sitting at 84 percent yeah okay yeah these are the sorts of things that a broken nose he needs to do but because he's got to feed his kids at the end

of the month he's got to focus on those deals they're going to get through so if you're not getting the service that you're looking for if you're not getting the answers you're looking for don't be shy to tell your broker can you bring on your team a para broker i'm prepared to invest in my future and i want to resource you with an extra person to make sure that my file gets looked after because you're relying respectfully on the generosity of that broker who is interviewing you just as much as you're interviewing them as to whether they can deliver that wealth that you're looking for absolutely you make a brilliant point and i i think the key thing that anyone listening to this needs to take away is to actually ask your broker have you got a power broker at number one

and secondly do encourage them to do so as you just said uh you know like yourself john uh one of our we've got a power broker who used to be a broker but their lifestyle is such that they they just can't be doing the hours that they used to they've got all the head knowledge uh so they can do exactly they can do the scenario analysis and come up with the best option because they've got the time without having to answer phone calls every every second of the day to be able to come the best fit for what that particular client is looking to achieve so i think that's an awesome exercise but i want to shift now on to you know what we started off in the intro talking about and that is the importance of buying capacity.

And I know that you can share with us the difference between what's called a non-ADI and an ADI banking lending institution and what this means to your buying power. Can you explain what, for those who don't know what an ADI is, what that means and then what is the difference in relation to capacity that flies from that? Thank you, Besh. You get a great, great, great topic to bring up.

So ADI, Australian Deposit Taking Institution, a non-ADI, non-deposit, Australian deposit-taking institution. In a nutshell, what APRA have done is for those banks and lenders that are deposit-taking institution have basically put a buffer. So where you and I at the time of recording are thinking 6% for your interest-owning loan, when the bank looks at you, they have to put a buffer.

And what do you think, Bushy, 3% on average? 30%, yep. Yeah, so they're assessing you at 9%. Now, the really good news is if you're prepared to pay a little bit more in interest, then there are these non-deposit taking institutions that aren't bound by APRA regulations and can somewhat reduce the buffers. So it may not be 3%. It might be, I don't know, what do you reckon, two and a half? Yep, two and a half. Yeah.

So it may not sound like a lot, but all of a sudden it might make the difference between that third or fourth investment property that you're trying to look at. so don't be shy to look outside of the big four and all the brand names that spend millions in marketing to you the non-adi institutions want your business and actually have the credit policies in place to help you yeah so it in summary um you can delineate between the lenders in a non-adi type of way and an ADI type of way, and hopefully you can qualify with those ADI lenders that you know of. But if you don't, don't be shy. It's money is all the same.

Don't be shy to go to the other guys that aren't bound by APRA. Exactly. Because what you want is that next property, that next $400,000 property that one day might turn into $500,000, $600,000, $700,000, $800,000 million. Yeah. Who cares if you pay 1% more when you've got yourself set up? Eh, Bushy?

100%, mate. You're certainly talking my language there. While we're talking about borrowing capacity and borrowing power, have you got any other tips that you can share with us to improve capacity? I can be here all day. The first one I would say to you is try and find a broker that specialises in what you're trying to do, okay?

And it's really important that you find a broker that's experienced into it. So if you're trying to build wealth, try and find that broker that's really really good because what brokers are good at we're good at everything we're like the gps of the medical world for a better term but then you'll find there are gps that have some specialty in gynecology or something like that and then you get the specialists and that's what you want if you want to build wealth you want the specialist and the reason is the following mortgage brokers get i don't know 30 emails a day from various banks

yeah now if you specialize in growing a portfolio for your clients which which lenders do you think you're going to pay attention to the one that's just advertised what they're doing for first-time owners or the one that's just advertised saying that we've now improved our borrowing capacity for investors it's physically impossible for brokers to know everything about all the different niches of finance so if you can find that broker that is really good at investment property lending they will naturally have an instinct of where to take your business to number one all right that's number one yeah i could be here for ages talking about this number two um make sure your broker's team behind them you've got a team behind them

because the broker may have a lot of experience in their head but if the broker doesn't have the team to execute it for you you're going to be frustrated policies um applications will be submitted incorrectly and things like that so i can't stress that enough that you're looking not just at the broker but the ecosystem that the broker brings into the lender yeah okay yeah um i don't know there's a few more at the moment there's some lenders with fixed rates where they'll only put a little bit of a buffer 0.25 percent of a buffer on your fixed rate so if you fix your rate. And at the moment of recording, one-year fixed rates are lower than some variable rates. So that's not a bad idea to do it. So all of a sudden, you've stopped the buffer being 3%.

It could be just 0.25%. Common debt reducer is another one. This is where you can help mitigate that joint debt that you've got with, say, a partner. And if you can prove that your partner can carry their portion of the debt then that debt doesn't get added to your liabilities yeah yeah so mate you and i could be here on a completely separate but the really important thing that you just touched on is is make sure that you're getting a broker on your team who specializes in the area you're looking to borrow the money uh absolutely investment is your piece then make sure that you're dealing with a broker who'd want to invest in property themselves so they understand the ins and outs of what that's about,

and therefore their knowledge is going to be focused on lending solutions and lending structures that are going to increase capacity, minimise your costs and minimise your risk. So some absolute gold you've shared with us. Yeah, Bush, just an example, just to really hone it in. What I love doing for clients with those with equity is I love setting up cash-out facilities so you can make cash offers

because you and I know that the mortgage isn't really what the client wants what we're really trying to deliver is wealth yeah and we're absolutely at the pointy end of trying to get the acquisition right now if you were in this moment in time perth very hot market my clients are winning because they've got the cash offer so rather than getting a pre-approval to buy that 400 500 000 property we set up a cash out facility with those lenders that allow you to put all that take that money out and not put it on black yeah but put it on property um and that's how that's how an experienced investment property broker will think right what do i do to help my client get ahead it's not about the mortgage as much it's about

trying to build that portfolio yeah i love that on the other side of that is you know i occasionally get inquiries from developers wanting development finance i can do it but i'm not good at it and so i'll refer it to another broker who's really really good at it you know and you know i'm happy I've done my good deed for the day. Same. We're exactly the same. Horses for courses. And for those that are listening into this conversation,

one of the obvious litmus tests around the quality of the broker, if the first thing the broker starts to talk to you about is the rate, then you're probably backing the wrong horse because, as I said in the intro, it's very easy to boil it down to that very simple Lulz common denominator, but that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to actually getting the right finance solution. Mate, I'm going to get you back to drilling into that subject in more detail in a future episode because we're going

to just scratch the surface of some of the gold that you can share in that regard. I want to sort of now move into the investment property space given we've started to talk about it. And you mentioned earlier about regressive coefficient analysis. Talk to us a bit more about that in terms of the need to focus on this in order to fast-track capital growth. can you put some shape around that for us yeah mate with pleasure so part of that journey i've

gone through is trying to find people smarter than me that understand data and not make it boring and make it applicable so one of the pleasures i've had in life is being able to now understand that it's the suburb that you buy in that causes 70 to 80 percent of the capital growth not the property yeah and i never realized that and this might be new to a lot of listeners as well so we now know for a fact using what's called regressive coefficient analysis that it's the suburb respectfully if i can encourage you to do so to focus on you know you spend 80 of your time finding the suburb because you know rising tide lifts or boats and you can almost buy the wrong property and still make money if the if that suburb is growing in value yeah and it's

really exciting because australia has 15 and a half thousand suburbs and once you understand that each one of those are individual property markets you can be beside yourself thinking i'm living in a country that's like a candy store or lolly shop yeah like which one do you go for the strawberry creams or the snakes or the all the caramelos becomes like that whereas everyone just kept walking past the lolly shop thinking it's further down the road when there really is 15 and a half thousand suburbs that you can analyse and quite quickly determine using data whether it's worth your money. Let's transition that then because you touched on this earlier

on the conversation, but from a property investment location perspective then, how does the big smoke compare with the regions from the data perspective? So underlying the data. Oh, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. yeah so what we know using probably data that is as good as probably 1990 um we know for a fact now that the regional suburbs or significant urban areas they're called suas yeah uh just as good as the major capital cities so it irks me and frustrates me when i hear good people saying i

can't afford to buy or invest because i've only got a budget of only 500 000 which is still fantastic if you open up your eyes to these opportunities that are sitting outside of the stereotypical media analysis that you're stereotypically going to receive in the media it annoys me when i start to hear about the homogeneous nature of the property market when you read it in the market when you're reading the media look you hear about it going up or down but you know they say sydney's gone up this but i'm like and melbourne's gone up this or but where like which suburb are you talking about so to your point bushy far north queensland at the moment at the time of recording at the end of may 2023 is an unbelievable opportunity to pick up houses on

good size blocks with yields of six and a half percent yeah and this is not financial advice but there are so many wonderful suburbs that have got um the 30 data metrics that i use that have a positive correlation coefficient with capital growth that are destined for growth. And what do I mean by this? What sort of examples can I give you? We can do another session, an entire hour on this. But when you see stock on market below 1.3%,

that's a very tight market. And then when you add another data metric where you see, say, 30 people looking in that suburb, you instantly start to see a lot of demand not enough supply great then you can start overlaying that with fracking the price growth saying has it grown too much already or is it just started growing a little bit so you can make a judgment call um vendor discounting is the vendor having to drop its price to get the sale away or is in fact is it a negative vendor discount meaning they're actually getting more than what the agent is saying yeah so these are just some examples of the data metrics that you

can buy to help you intelligently make that property acquisition and it'll prove to you without a shadow of a doubt that that regional part of australia has the fundamentals for it to grow yeah and i'm also uh on the side note i love buying properties at pack themselves as well yeah yeah well it's going to be hard nowadays but yeah it's getting more challenging but there's some clever structuring things you can do to uh still put yourself in position where the property is popping its own face uh you've touched on some of this already as well and i'd love your read on what you think are the true drivers of long-term growth then john so from 30 years personally and and professionally looking at others who've built 200 plus portfolios

and what I've studied professionally, there are three main things. Firstly, and apologies to anyone who sells brand-new properties, don't buy brand-new, okay? What we do know for a fact now is that it doesn't grow anywhere near as much as an established property, and I don't have the time, unfortunately, to go for it or the ability to bring up the charts, but we know for a fact now that new doesn't grow anywhere near as strong as established.

I reckon there's one exception to that, and that is if you're building in a tightly held area where you're not in acres of greenfield exercise, but if you're doing gentrification within an existing tightly held suburb where you're building and you're getting the benefits of stamp duty and potentially depreciation growth from a cash flow perspective, given as long as the other growth drivers are in that particular location, you can still do okay.

But if you're out there amongst the masses where there is acres of undeveloped land yet to be built on, then 100% agree, mate. And that's the second point I have. Buy in built-up areas. Yeah. So if you do buy a brand-new property, I'm not recommending it, sorry, Bushy, but if you buy in that area where there's no more land, there's no potential for it to be swamped by lots of property.

So examples of that are, like you said, Bushy, the western suburbs of melbourne right it's an unlimited supply and as each estate comes on there'll be more and more properties coming on board um some of the places between the gold coasts and brisbane i think pimpamuck comes to mind again another area where there's lots of estates in that yeah um so yeah so the second point out of the three is make sure you buy in a built-up area where there's just no more supply okay and then the third one is buy a house yeah well we know for a fact now using data that houses have always outperformed um every other form of property uh obviously units now having said that i have also recommended to clients to

buy townhouses yep now only when they've missed the boat to buy a house and to give you an example to make it clear we we had some clients that had no no exposure to brisbane market and they had exposure to other markets and they needed some exposure to brisbane they'd missed the boat to buy a house had already been 45 growth but the townhouses hadn't started their journey yet and so there were pockets of brisbane where and it happens like clockwork the townhouses will eventually start moving yeah so in those areas where there was no more land supply they couldn't build any more townhouses it was landlocked there was reasons to suggest that buying a townhouse would have done very well and it did because the delta between the two had blown out so say for

example there was a difference of only 150 grand yep it blown out to say 500 grand because houses have taken off and those people in that area wanted to stay in that area and they would stay and then end up buying a townhouse. Yep. Again, I love what you've just shared there because, again, it's very dangerous to use blanket generalisations when it comes to property. And, yes, there's some rough rules of thumb,

but you've got to look specifically at what's happening in that particular location and demand supply scarcity factors around that. So where that data, again, I'm emphasising the data, is telling you that there's a demand for that type of accommodation in a particular location and you can quantify that, anything works. So, you know, I talk a lot about generalisations around,

you know, the sweet spot being a home on a block of dirt because that's where most Australians live and want to live, where either rent or buy. So you're really minimising the risk by soaking in that as long as all the other growth drivers are sitting around it. But, mate, I'm definitely going to get you back to dive into that in more detail. What I'd love to sort of pivot now into is the chat

around the builder broker exercise because I know you're really pioneering that industry. Can you talk to us a bit about what is it, why are you doing it, and how can listeners get on board with it if it's the right thing for them? Thanks, Bushy. Very, very grateful for the opportunity to let the world know a little bit about what a builder broker is. uh it came from the era of the royal commission um you may remember this bushy particularly uh

the mortgage industry was facing an existential crisis we we came this close listeners to losing that industry and so my wife and i looked at each other and said what are we going to do and my wife coming from a building family had realized and i think most people realize there is a need for someone to help select a builder yeah so from the ashes of the royal commission there was uh the birth of builder finders builderfinders.com.au and what it is is the way the best way to think of it is your mortgage broker has a panel of lenders just replace those lenders with a panel of vetted builders yeah and so there are builders and you would know this is an ex-architect will she that do heritage work and there are we could help you with that there

are builders who specialize in commercial work and we can help you with that there are builders who are very good with what's called kdrs knock down rebuilds yeah um duplexes etc etc and so through a process of vetting the builders to get on the panel we make no apologies just to start the 62 questions they need to answer just to start yeah we go into their financials to see if they're financially stable we ring their staff to see what they're like to work for that builder because as you know guys it's always the trade is on the job not the builder that executes and then finally we've got a scope of works it's a 32 page scope of works which is phenomenal in making sure that when the builder tenders that they are very specific

because one of the biggest problems is that I can we see people make is that they ask a builder to tender but they're not specific enough in the sense that um let me give an example that front door in your dwelling the builder doesn't know if you want a really really cool expensive looking impressive door or if you'd be happy with a standard specification so in the drop down box is four things for that door yeah or if you're happy with a bunning special yeah so think about the number of doors in your house if you can tell the builder that front door i want it to be impressive but the laundry door i don't care if it's a bunnings thing if you tell them that then the builder is able to specifically quantify what that cost is yeah and then when you think about

all the other decisions let's use the toilet and the toilet in the laundry you don't really care if it's a bunning special but you might want the japanese very special toilet in your ensuite and he can budget for that yeah so we the builder broker is a lot like your mortgage broker where we can help you find firstly the builder that has an appetite for your work because the good ones are interviewing you just as much as you're interviewing them as you know bushy yep um and then we help you tender in a way that you may not have realized can help you we can almost, not guarantee, but we know through the process we save you 10% to 15% based on the concept of what we've done

with previous clients over the last five years. Yeah, I love them. I love the fact that you're actually educating the clients to get very specific about exactly what they want so that you're then going to get an apples for apples comparison from the builders that are actually submitting prices on the exercise. And I'm assuming that, you know, I'm putting on my old architects hat from many years ago, but I used to notice that when we were tendering projects, and it was more on the commercial

side of the equation in those days, but the quality of the site foreman or the construction manager was absolutely critical to how well the job would go from a time quality and cost perspective. So it doesn't matter how good the name is on the plate, the experience of the guy who's the orchestra leader on site basically who's pulling all the strings to make it all happen. Is that an interesting part of your assessment there? Yeah, that's a good point.

That's arguably the first person that we'll ring and say, can we have the number and the contact details informant? How long do we ring him and say, are you getting treated right? Because if he's just about to leave, forget it. Are you getting well remunerated and compensated in this day and age? That's important. And a whole bunch of things. We ring the site foreman because they control the site, as you know,

right through to the suppliers so that electrical contractor selling all the electrical stuff are you getting paid on time um the timber yards and things like that but back to your point mate it's the staff on site that really really really needs to be drilled down hard on well i i fully commend yourself and your good wife for for driving that initiative i think it's a big need in the industry for both sides actually for the builders as well as the clients and particularly in an environment where at the moment there's a lot of confidence being lost in the construction industry given the headlines that we keep reading about some of the major builders going to liquidation.

So by stiffening up that process and protecting both sides of the equation, you know, I'm a big believer in building. If you really want to get what you want, then building is the way to do it, but you need to be very careful about how you do that. And with yourself and your good wife sitting on the client side of the table, then you're really upping the ante in relation to give them the sort of protections that they're looking for to get a really good result, mate.

So we'll talk more about that in future episodes as well, John. Sorry, mate, just one more thing. There's a small $700 engagement fee, okay, just to start. It gets refunded to you at the end. And the good news is we get paid by the builder. So, you know, that service is there for you and you can benefit from the experience that we can bring to the table. So really, really excited.

It's absolutely exploding. and I'll let Lynette go on the show one day where you guys can talk about it further. We definitely will, and I like the model that you just shared there because it's very similar to the finance broking exercise where the banks pay the brokers and up front in the trail commission for placing the loan. In this case, the builders are all effectively contributing

to that exercise so that it's at very low cost to the person who's wanting to get the property built but still giving them the insurances around the time, quality, cost and exercise, that's a bit of a no-brainer. We brought the compliance, Bushy, further to what you said, we brought the compliance and the mortgage-breaking industry into this builder-breaking industry. So BuilderFinders is held to a standard that we hope continues to rise,

but it's a pretty high bar. Everything is transparent. There's codes of conduct. If you need to make a complaint about BuilderFinders, This is where you can go and make the complaint, things like that. So you never know, mate. There might be a day when there's an industry body that's like the Mortgage Finance Association of Australia, an equivalent, where I can help develop that industry even further and help Australians with their dreams to build. Love it, mate.

I love the fact that you're taking action on that big need opportunity, mate. So, mate, I know we could talk for hours. we've only just scratched the surface but uh i am going to get you back uh on a number of occasions to talk some of the things and drill deep into these subjects but i want to transition now into what i like to call the ambush fastball or the the bushfire lightning round where i'm going to give you a blindfold and cigarette and ask you the uh the fastball questions that every podcast asked so to kick those off mate what's your favorite quote and why you actually mention it it's warren buffett be fearful when everyone's greedy that one um i don't know why but yeah just it just

seems to resonate um every time i hear doom and gloom i'm like yes thank you you're probably like me i'm a bit of a contrarian when wherever i'm hearing the the crowd going one direction it's like right there's an opportunity here now's the time to to pounce so i really encourage people to take that contrarian approach and really question what they're hearing and get their data and their information from credible sources not from news decks or the headlines on the newspaper or something shifting to the literary field then what's the top book that you'd recommend we read and why then joe i make i'm gonna ask you this because i'm i value your opinion more but rich dad poor dad was a catalyst for a lot of my i know it's a very simple book but wow god talk

about light bulb moments it all made sense you know um reading that your house wasn't an asset i was like what what are you talking about so that wasn't that was amazing so go and get it guys if you haven't read it rich dad poor dad what about you well i reckon rich dad poor dad is still just as uh relevant today as what it was when when i read it like 30 years ago uh because there's nuggets of gold there that are just as applicable uh my i'm i'm a an avid reader i've always got four or five books on the go but if i think if i was uh starting out in the process uh any book by noel whittaker is worth reading he's really good mate he's an he's an investor who's also a very good accountant uh and i know when i was starting off in the process one of his books really helped

me understand the importance of the structuring of the property in terms of the tax treatment and and the thing that most investors don't spend much time on is the cash flowing of the property because if you're holding on a property for 10, 15 years plus, the cash flow is actually the thing that's going to get you from the start to the finish. And there's way too many investors who only cursory look at, you know, here's the mortgage and here's the rent, here's the gap, can I afford it?

Yeah, okay. But as you and I know, there's a lot more to it than that. So, you know, that affordability piece is the bridge between now and tomorrow and Noel Whittaker's books. There's a series of them, well worth a read as far as that goes. That would be my thoughts on that, mate. But I now want to switch into the investment advice arena, John, and I want you to sort of talk to us about what's been the worst

and the best piece of investment advice that you've received today. The worst and the best piece. I think the best piece of advice was always to focus on trying to create passive income and find something that generates passive income, whether it be business, stocks, shares, you know, writing music where you get royalties that sort of concept and if you can follow it if it becomes a passion or you enjoy it whether it's writing music and get royalties um dividends or stocks or property then make that your obsession so that was a that was the number one thing hence the

reason why i got into finance from a business perspective that that's how those same years during the royal commission when when i wasn't writing as much business that helped me get through the bad times the property portfolio helped as well yeah so that was really really good um the bad piece of advice was i've had so many but the one that i took action on was believing um people who were who were well-meaning and they sold me off the plan apartments and now the opportunity costs i don't want to think about it because i reckon it'd be millions because had i bought something else that wasn't you know a box in the sky then you know that I would have been millions of dollars ahead.

So, yeah, just be careful of the agenda behind people who are trying to help you but may not have the competence or the understanding of what it's going to take to help you get to where you want to go in your journey. Yeah, really good advice there, mate, because a lot of the spruikers in that space, they sell a really good message. A lot of what they say has truth in it, but it's just applied to the wrong product.

So it sounds believable, but the end result actually doesn't tick all the boxes. So be really careful about who you're dealing with in that space and be really clear about who's paying them and how they're getting paid because that can often make the difference. And make sure you're talking to people who actually invest in what they're suggesting you invest in because if they're not, then there's always a big question mark there for me.

But I just want to switch now into the last exercise. you know as you know I'm a believer that you know sustainable success lies at the intersection of self-health and wealth and in the health health piece that's the daily habits and the rewarding rituals and the uh the disciplines that we apply to everyday life that then contribute to our greatest success what's a daily discipline that you employ that's contributed most to your investment success today investment or health Bushy which one uh investment investment Okay. Again, it's just really getting up every day and saying,

what can I do to add to my passive income? So from that nine-to-five perspective, it's building the business that every time I have a new customer, there's that new perspective, a new income stream. I've shifted a little bit now in terms of trying to help my kids. I've learned now about the importance of special purpose vehicles as the asset holding entity, SPVs. I can do a whole session on this.

yes it really does help mitigate if you've got potential issues with borrowing capacity so spv special purpose vehicles there are some banks out there that allow you to isolate that ecosystem where the rents and the liability stays within that trust yeah there are some banks out there that allow you to keep moving and creating more and more trusts so in that journey i've learned how to do that, and I'm now trying to help my kids because God forbid how they're going to afford anything in Sydney or Melbourne or whatever capital city they want to move for. But I also want to stress the importance of the health bit, Bushy.

Yeah. When I was mentoring mortgage brokering as a business for a while there, I actually brought in dieticians. Yeah. I'm ashamed to admit our industry is very unhealthy and I can't stress the importance. I know it sounds stupid on an investment show. Not at all, mate.

Not at all. 80% of your health can come from your diet. It's a foundation stone. There's no point being wealthy if you're not healthy because you're not going to live long enough to enjoy it. It's that simple. Yeah. And if I was a man of influence and power,

I would be making such massive movements towards getting Australians to eat better. And a very good scientifically backed way of doing that is a low-carb, almost ketogenic diet. Yeah. um don't mean to be controversial but it's worked for me and it's made me feel a lot more alert i feel lighter i have a lot more energy and then it with that is a movement just any form of movement once a day it just i think we've made it so complicated that you know if you love the gym

go for it if you like to go for a walk go for it if you love the beach or swim just go for it so So I play squash every Tuesday night. This morning I went for an hour walk. Tomorrow there will be a HIIT program. The next day there's a bit of weights. Yep. So the combination of a really good diet keeps you mentally so good. Yep.

Do you want to dig deeper? I fast every day. Yep. And the mental acuity that that generates is phenomenal because I'm not having a food coma during that thing. So anyway. Love it. We've got a lot more in common than, yeah, that's brilliant, mate.

We've got a lot more in common than I thought, mate, because everything you've just said, I'm going tick, tick, tick. That's exactly the approach I take, mate. So it's not rocket science. It's been around for centuries, but we've just lost sight of it at times, unfortunately. If we get back to our ancestral roots and just live the lifestyles that we're actually being designed to do,

then life gets a lot more enjoyable as a consequence, mate. So I love you sharing that. mate been a great conversation i i feel like we've only been talking for five minutes but and i know that we could talk for a lot longer but if you were to sort of summarize that conversation today what would be your key takeaways and immediate actions that aspiring investors need to take become educated try and find people that supply you data as part of the education piece all right that'll remove opinion and biases because once you've got the data so become educated once you've got it once you've got an education process then the roadmap greater

roadmap to underachieve i'll leave you with that bushy yeah the underachievement's got a few a few brains going underachieve that's a bit of a question mark uh we'll we'll come back and delve into that at a future date mate so we'll keep keep everyone guessing on it uh love the exercise there mate for those that have like myself have really resonated with your message today uh how can we find out more and get more involved with you john thank you again very humbled to be on the show thank you for what you do for the community um every time i listen to you i learn something so thank you uh for those of you want to get in contact um hunterwood.com.au is the website you can have a look at all the services uh i've got some amazing articles where i can share with you

for example, regionals versus capital cities. Another great one is past performance versus future performance, not an indicator of future performance. There's an inverted relationship there. I'd love to talk to you about that, Bushy, in the next episode. Yeah, so john at hunterwood.com.au or put an enquiry through my website, hunterwood.com.au. I love it, mate.

I know you've also got an insider's guide to SMF secrets and some cash flow secrets that go with that. So you've got some great information to share. I'm actually going to issue a challenge to the listeners because I like people to do a bit of work to gain the advantage rather than just expect it, John. So if you'd like to email me at bushy at knowhowproperty.com and answer this really simple question,

how will John's Insider Guide help you? Spear it through and John and I will pour over the responses and we'll forward a copy of the report plus any other information John's happy to share for what we consider to be the best responses. So John, again, mate, I really appreciate your very generous time on the show today

and I'm really looking forward to keeping the conversation going. So stay tuned and we'll talk more in the future. Pleasure, Bushy. Thank you. Thanks, mate. Bye for now. Thanks for tuning in to Get Invested

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