Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: Julia Newbould on the joy of money

Episode Date: September 19, 2020

What's a quick and easy way to overcome your money fears and to start embracing money as your friend rather than your enemy? This is where today’s guest Julia Newbould and her new book ‘The Joy of Money’ comes to your rescue.  I’m betting that not many of you associate feelings of joy with money. But this is exactly what Julia and her co-author of Kate McCullum have discovered in this fun, entertaining, educating and engaging easy read. Julia is a financial writer and commentator with a strong background in financial journalism. She’s currently the Editor at large with Money Magazine, which is Australia's longest-running and most-read personal finance magazine. Prior to this she was editor of Financial Planning and Super Review magazines, managing editor at InvestorInfo and at Morningstar Australia which has all leveraged off her Bachelor of Economics.  Her co-authored book The Joy of Money helps you reframe your relationship with money and personal finance by deliberately de-jargonising the often confusing world of money, investing and finance. As she says in the opening of the book, ‘We don’t believe in jargon. We believe that it has been used in finance circles to exclude people, and while the terms may be complex the concepts are not. We have removed unnecessary jargon and explained key concepts in practical ways.’ As The Joy of Money challenges you: Whatever you do, continue to take an interest in your finances. You need money to be financially independent, and you need financial independence to have choices in your life and for your goals. There's no need to feel guilty about the past – it's the past. Whether we've got all the super we should have had, or whether we've sacrificed savings for shoes, or if we lost money in bad investments, or a bad relationships, let's agree we start here today. We are where we are and regrets won’t help. Let's agree to look ahead and see what we can do right now. So if you’re looking to improve your knowledge so you can take control of your money to create your version of financial independence, then you’re really going to enjoy this great chat with Julia Newbould. Julia's book recommendation: Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki Get Invested is the podcast dedicated to time poor professionals who want to work less and live more. Join Bushy Martin, one of Australia’s top 10 property specialists, as he and his influential guests share know-how on the ways investing in property can unlock the life you always dreamed about and secure your financial future. Remember to subscribe on your favourite podcast player, and if you're enjoying the show please leave us a review. Find out more about Get Invested here https://bushymartin.com.au/get-invested-podcast/  Want to connect with Bushy? Get in touch here https://bushymartin.com.au/contact/  This show is produced by Apiro Media - http://apiropodcasts.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

money isn't everything but it does give you the ability to make choices and the choices that allow you to live your best life and whatever that is whether it's helping other people or whether it's um you know building um a life of creativity or um the pleasure through some other means you know family whatever it is i think you know you take stock of what you have what you want then look at your money your abilities and try and make the most of both of those to give you greater choices to live the life you want welcome to the get invested podcast where we share great conversations with experts from all walks of life to uncover their secret know-how where they invest their time their skills and their money and the benefits that this has created you see the truth

is that everyone invests every minute every day we're investing our time our skills our energy and our money in something. Some of us are investing consciously, some unconsciously, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad, sometimes for no impact. Get Invested will help you to start living by design,

not by default. I'm going to help you to make it happen, not let it happen. You'll hear the top tips on how you can live with conscious intent so that you can live more, work less, and leave a living legacy by investing now.

Listen to the show to discover the top tips on how to get started, make the most of your investment journey, and ultimately, to be living your dream, not someone else's. More episodes can be found on iTunes or at bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested. Thanks for listening, and now, let's get invested. Hi, Freedom Fighters. Are you in a job that you're just not loving but can't afford to change it? Do you want to work less or work in another industry? Do you want to change where you live, move out of the city?

Do you want to travel more, to have more time to do the things you love? Do you ever worry that you won't have enough money to do what you want? And do you ever wonder if you should be further ahead than you are? So what's holding you back? My guess? Your confidence about your finances. Unfortunately, it's often all coming down to money. Money and your relationship with it is likely to be limiting your choices and your thinking. And as much as we don't want to talk about it, money is a great enabler in our Western world.

money is the lifeblood of your choices the oxygen of your opportunities and the fuel for your freedom now there'll always be distractions coming between you and your future finances your job may be taking up all your free time your children may be taking up the rest and you may feel that you just don't have the headspace for it but the road to conquering fear in creating freedom starts with gaining knowledge, to debunk and demystify any finance fears that you may have, to learn the language of money. Because a lot of fear around money is often created by the cloak of jargon that seems to surround it. So what's a quick and easy way to overcome your money fears and to start embracing money as your friend rather

than your enemy? This is where today's guest Julie Newbold and her new book, The Joy of money comes to your rescue. Now, what do you think about when you hear the joy of money? If you're a little bit older and crustier like me, the title took me straight back to that naughty book in the 1970s that everyone pretended they hadn't read, but often stashed under the bed. It was called The Joy of Sex, which had some really interesting freehand drawings in it that gave the Kama Sutra some really hot competition, but I digress here. Now, I'm betting that not many of you associate feelings of joy with money, but this is exactly what Julia and her co-author Kate McMullen have discovered in this fun, entertaining, educating, and very engaging

easy read. Julia is a financial writer and a commentator with a strong background in financial journalism. She's currently the editor-at-large with Money Magazine, which is Australia's longest-running and most-read personal finance magazine. Prior to this, she was editor of financial planning and super-review magazines, managing editor at Investor Info and at Morningstar Australia, which is all leveraged off her Bachelor of Economics. Her co-authored book The Joy of Money helps you to reframe your relationship with money and personal finance by deliberately de-jargonising the often confusing world of money, investing and finance. As she says in the opening of the book,

we don't believe in jargon. We believe that it's been used in finance circles to exclude people. And while the terms may be complex, the concepts aren't. We've removed unnecessary jargon and explained key concepts in practical ways. So to help you better embrace money as another member of your family, that you can nurture so that it grows up to be healthy and wealthy so it can then look after you in your future golden years as my good wife Sonia is fond of saying

I'm going to start by sharing some extracts from the joy of money to inspire you to start taking control of your money so that you can get to start to get your time and your freedom of choice back. As I've often said before true fulfilment in life comes from being in a position where you can give freely of your time, your money, your care and your resources to others without ever expecting anything in return. You can only do this when you have the freedom of time and choice on your hands.

And you can only enjoy the freedom of time and choice if your lifestyle money and your income needs are being met without relying on you having to trade your time for money to fund your lifestyle. In other words, to enjoy fulfilment and freedom you need to be financially independent where your money is working for you, not the other way around. In simple terms, you need to be wealthy enough through your savings and investments to fund your preferred lifestyle

without relying on you to work for it. Your money is working for you, not the other way around. So how do you achieve the level of wealth required to fund your version of fulfillment and for freedom? Well, in concert with my book, The Freedom Formula, Julia's book, The Joy of Money, encapsulates this really well by breaking down how to be wealthy into seven interrelated elements. Firstly, your human capital, which is your earnings power. This includes what you're able

to earn and your ability to work. It's based on your knowledge, your skills, and your competencies. So it's important that you invest in and you nurture these. Secondly, your regular savings, your ability to delay spending and convert part of your earnings into investments. Now this is where many hard working Aussies start to fall short. Thirdly, your investments, your financial assets, which you should expect to increase in value over time. The good news here is that this work is done by your investments while you sleep. Fourthly, protecting your income through personal insurances

so that illness or injury doesn't interrupt your earnings and savings. Number five is about your strategy and structuring, using careful planning to reduce the risk that your money is eroded by avoidable tax and your investments are designed for the right level of risk and a reasonable level of return to suit your sleep at night factor. Then number six is about protecting your assets through careful structuring to reduce the risk that your money is damaged by claims and life changes like divorce, remarriage or death. Now if you're like most

people, you don't want assets ending up in limbo or in the hands of someone you don't want to have them. Instead, keeping your money with the people you do want to have it. And lastly, but definitely not leastly, number seven is time, which is your lifetime and likely to be the most important driver of your wealth. The joy of money also starts out giving you some very useful tips on what you need to be considering in doing at each of your important ages and stages of life, which progress through starting out to building your career, taking time out for a career break or kids, and then what you need to think about in your 50s. Let me again stress at this point the usual ass covering disclaimer that what I talk about here is general in nature and there's

no way intended nor constitutes as financial advice and of course you should consider seeking independent legal financial taxation and other advice to check out how the suggested information and options that we talk about relates to your personal situation and your sleep at night risk appetite. So let's now break Julia's stages and ages down as it's a great framework to see where you're at and the things that you need to be thinking about. So starting out this is about becoming financially organised. And focus first on the pay yourself first principle. This is where you set a target amount of savings and you treat it like a mortgage or rent. That is, rather than saving what's left after spending, you spend what's left after saving. And of course, you keep this

habit going through the rest of your life. Starting out is also about creating your will and power of attorney and it's generally the last thing that teens and twenties are thinking about. Regardless as to whether you've got assets, it's really important here to ensure that you don't leave a mess for your loved ones to clean up. Julie also suggests checking your super investment option at this starting out stage. If you're in your 20s or 30s, you're likely to need your super for 30 plus years. So she suggests that you can have a high proportion in growth assets and if the value goes down with market movements, it shouldn't impact you because you're not using the money yet. Also check out your super death benefits nominations.

It's also important at this early stage to start saving, creating a buffer of six months worth expenses, what I've referred to previously in other episodes as your rainy day war chest or your emergency fund. Getting started is also about beginning to invest. Julia suggests topping up super and even when starting out the book suggests that you may target 12% of your income. And for personal investments, look for low-cost investment options. And if you wanted to save for your first home at this stage, find out about the First Home Saver Super Scheme as well as the First Home Loan Deposit Scheme,

which are very tax-effective ways to save for your first home through super. Feel free to email me at bushey at knowhowproperty.com.au if you want some more information on this. And lastly, during this start-out stage, the book stresses the need to always, always, always repay credit cards each and every month. Don't use personal loans for anything, including car finance. They have interest rates in the double digits. The book then shifts to the building your career stage with great suggestions on the following.

Negotiate pay, build your skills and manage your career. This is all about maximising your human capital. automatically invest most of your bonuses you could do something like 35 to super 35 to investment and 30 to spend automatically increase savings with any pay rises recheck insurances when your salary increases to ensure that you've got enough and if you marry or have a partner renew your wills and estate planning including super beneficiary nominations remember marriage voids an existing will. The next stage is about considering career breaks and or kids. The books are just planning for a career break by living on one salary for 12 months before you take your

break. Not only will it help you plan for less income, it will also help you to build a buffer for increased expenses. Also, keep up contributions to super through spouse contributions, personal contributions, maybe even using super splitting during a career break. And also recheck insurances as well. Dependents mean you need to think about life insurance. Also consider child trauma insurance for children aged two and over. And if you have a mortgage, keep up repayments before starting personal investments. And then we come to your fabulous 50s and I say this because that's exactly where I'm at. Firstly, boost your super. Recheck your insurances because you may not need as much if your kids are becoming independent. And direct any cost savings from

school fees or mortgage, et cetera, to other investments like super and investments in shares and property. Ensure adult children have at least income protection insurance. And finally, if you're unfortunate to be divorced or repartner, redo your will and estate planning, including super beneficiary nominations. Now, this age stage progression contrasts nicely with what the book The Joy of Money also summarises as the five of the biggest money mistakes that people make. These are, number one, doing nothing. It's so easy for time to slip by, so start now. Number two, assuming that earning a good income will do the trick. A good income won't guarantee that you'll be financially fit,

and a good income today is not guaranteed in the future. Number three, not using tax concessions, the main one being super. Number four, not being conscious about cash flow because cash flow is king. And lastly, number five, not staying engaged with your money. You need to reconnect with your money and know where every dollar is going so that you feel in control. Now, when it comes to money, many of us think that we need more before we can start to save and invest. But often, the key lies in something much simpler and easier, spending less so you can save more. Most investors spend a lot of time and energy on finding an investment which promises the best returns.

Yet investment returns can be both elusive and hard won. What if instead you could worry less about returns and find something much more controllable to focus on? Well you can. Saving at a higher rate usually has a bigger impact on your outcomes than higher investment returns and with a whole lot less risk. Let's look at an example. Let's assume Tom and Sarah are both 55 with a household income of $100,000 and only a few thousand in their super accounts, which is sadly often the case. If they want to retire by age 65, they've got 10 years to play catch up.

So let's look at two options. One, where they save 10% of their income earning an 8% return on their investments. And the other, where they save 20% of their income, but just 4% return on their investments. In the first option, where Tom and Sarah save 10% of their income and earn 8% on their investments, they'd accumulate roughly $165,000 by the time they retire. now earning eight percent per year would be great but it's likely to be very difficult to pull off in the current low interest rate environment that we're going to experience over the next few years now let's compare this with the second option where we assume they save 20 percent of their

income double the first option but only earn four percent on their investments which is half of the first option. Now under this scenario, they'd actually end up with almost $275,000. Now that's $110,000 more, which means they'd be better off by 66%. So as you can hear, savings really does the heavy lifting. And that's worth repeating. Saving really does the heavy lifting. It's the key to any positive financial advantage. and it's particularly valuable when you have a goal with a short to medium term horizon like this. Tom and Sarah's doubling of their savings rate leads to a far better outcome than doubling their investment returns

and even better, it's with far less risk. You have complete control over how much you save but virtually no control over the performance of the markets particularly in rapidly changing, radically uncertain times like these. So how can we save more? Well, not just by earning more, but by spending less. Now, if you're like me and Julia, who have parents who came out of the post-World War II era, they were very careful about money,

finding ways to stretch every dollar by reusing, repairing, recycling and repurposing. My good mother managed to feed, clothe and support our family of five for just 70 bucks a week from when she married Dad back in 1960 right through until Dad died in 2007. We grew our own veggies, everything was homemade and home-cooked, including sauces, jams and my favourite chutney. And our clothes were generally homemade or hand-me-downs from someone else. Luckily I was the eldest, so I got first dibs on the seconds. Now, given the COVID-contagion times that we're currently coming through

at the time of this episode. If you're ready to embrace being a little bit more frugal to become more financially fit, these are some great frugal approaches to resurrect given the massive wake-up call that we've all just experienced. Now in the book, Julia offers 50 top tips for spending well and saving well. And to whet your appetite,

here are the top seven that I personally like best from the book. One, apply the 30-day rule. This is designed to reduce impulse buying. Anything that you think you'd like to buy, you write down on a note. You then have to wait 30 days before you can buy it. And guess what happens? Most of the time, the impulse passes. Secondly, clean out your wardrobe and only keep the things that you need or bring you joy.

You may be able to earn some extra cash by selling good clothes online or just simply give them away to someone else in need. Now, my wife, Sonia, has a great cleansing rule on this. If we haven't worn something for 12 months, then it's gone. And if I buy another shirt, I've got to give one away. It's what she calls the buy one, give one approach. Thirdly, buy secondhand. There are so many online marketplaces

and you can often find many things you need at a fraction of the price of something new. My wife Sonia will probably hate me for saying this, but her most complimented and very stylish full-length jacket was bought for just $20 from an op shop and some of my favourite and best-looking jeans I've picked up for just $5 at the Salvos. They're cheap, we're reusing

and the money's going to a good cause. That's a real win-win-win. fourthly buy everything on sale even better buy at warehouse sales but only if you need something if you buy something on sale that you don't really need and it wasn't on your 30-day list then it was never really on sale number five byo your own food for things like sports games cinema and road trips it makes it easy to find somewhere enjoyable to eat and you'll eat better and you'll spend less number six negotiate cost reductions with your bank utilities and service providers now our know-how mortgage breaking team has been helping clients cut their mortgage costs

by an average of between four hundred and twelve hundred dollars a month just by refinancing and restructuring which is the equivalent of giving yourself a free pay rise of somewhere between seven grand to over twenty thousand bucks a year and the same applies to power phone and insurance bills. Just ring them and ask them how much they're prepared to drop their rates. And lastly, avoid fines. Speeding and parking fines are really annoying and just a complete waste of money, and don't I know it. Unfortunately, my heavy pedal on the metal of my Jeep Cherokee SRT Bushmobile has actually cost us the equivalent of a holiday in Bali in past years. until I started putting the beast on cruise control

as soon as I jumped behind the wheel. Now, these tips are just a taste of the other 43 spending and savings tips, so you'll have to get yourself a copy of The Joy of Money to enjoy the rest. But to further incentivise your savings, here are some of my wife Sonia's best saving tips because she's an absolute queen of this stuff. One, do your grocery shopping online via click and collect so you stick to what you need and are not tempted to spend on other things.

This saves you both time and money by having a saved regular shopping list. Number two, get rid of the tap and go or the pay with touch ID off your mobile phone. Yes, it's quick and easy, but you become unconscious and you just don't know how much you're spending. That takeaway coffee on the go is quick to do, but do just two of those a day and you've fitted away over $2,600 a year that could easily get you started building savings

or pay for a holiday. Number three, have a fun money debit card and I'm saying debit card, not a credit card where 20% to 30% of your income goes into the card automatically every pay and then you live off that until the next pay. If the money runs out, You've got nothing until your next paycheck.

This is part of the kick-ass automatic remote control saver system that I detail in my book, The Freedom Formula. So just email me if you want to get an extract on all the details. And finally, here's a small spend that is more like an investment that'll end up boosting your savings because it'll actually change your money mindset. I suggest subscribing to The Money Magazine. There's nothing better than flicking through every month's magazine when you're having a coffee.

And it's amazing how much your knowledge and awareness of all things money, savings and investment will grow over time. I actually firmly believe that on top of Robert Kiyosaki's book Rich Dad Poor Dad, Ready Money magazine every month starting over 20 years ago really inculcated good money, savings and investment habits. It was fun looking forward to the magazine arriving in the post every month. to make it easy just jump on magshop.com.au forward slash money dash magazine and for just six and six dollars eighty a month or less than two cups of coffee you'll have the glossy magazine arrive on your doorstep every month packed with everything you need to start creating your financial freedom and one last word on this the joy of money stresses that it's important to

continue little indulgences. If flowers are your thing then let them bring you pleasure. If it's a magazine subscription keep it. Just be mindful about what gives you pleasure and what savings you'll need to give you pleasure in the future. What's become obvious is that it's the myriad of little things that count not necessarily one big thing. Because the little things become rituals and habits that then help you achieve the big things easily and effortlessly over time. Now, Julia has generously offered a free copy of her book to one lucky Get Invested listener who emails me on bushy at knowhowproperty.com.au, that's bushy at knowhowproperty.com.au, with what she considers to be the best savings tip from all of your emails.

And as a further incentive, anyone who emails me will get a free copy of my award-winning book, Get Invested. And now that you've heard some of the easy-to-use money gold that Julie has captured in The Joy of Money, you can also get your own copy from all good bookstores. It's a really good read and a great place to start. Now in addition to this, in our great chat today, Julia unpacks many other very practical ways to improve your relationship with money as you start your journey to financial freedom and choice.

And we include such great topics like your success structure to becoming sassy with your money, your sleep at night test, the four ducks approach to the importance of your insurances, what is the 57-year itch, and we get Julia's thoughts on self-managed super and cryptocurrency. In closing, Julia agrees that it's never too late to start. She believes that one of the biggest mistakes people make is to do nothing.

As the joy of money challenges you, whatever you do, continue to take an interest in your finances. You need money to be financially independent and you need financial independence to have choices in your life and for your goals. And there's no need to feel guilty about the past, it's the past. Whether we've got all the super we should have had or whether we've sacrificed savings for shoes or if we lost money in bad investments or bad relationships, let's agree that we all start here today. We are where we are and regrets won't help. Let's agree to look ahead and see what we

can do right now. So if you're looking to improve your knowledge so that you can take control of your money to create your version of financial independence, then you're really going to enjoy this great chat with Julian Newbold. Welcome, Freedom Fighters. Now, in recent weeks, I've been privileged to join a host of thought leaders on the National Online Money Debate Summit discussing all things money and during this time I've been lucky enough to rub shoulders with today's guest Julie Newbold and in addition to being a very stylish fashionista, Julia shares my passion for helping hard-working Aussies to embrace financial literacy as the gateway to financial independence and lifestyle freedom. So welcome and let's get invested Julia.

Thank you very much. Julia great to have you on the show. I've been a massive fan of the Money magazine now, I think ever since it was released way back in the days when Paul Clitheroe was a living legend on the TV. And it's been very instructive to myself in my early days in the wealth journey. But before I sort of get into any of that, very keen for you to talk about who you are, what you do, and why you do what you do, Julia. Okay. Thanks, Gucci. I guess my current role is i'm editor at large at money magazine and i've been there about a year um like you i'm a big fan of the magazine and i love the way it does engage with people and it's really brought um financial literacy but also in interest in finance um to everyday australians and i think that that's

really important um really i've been in journalism for all my entire career but i've been in financial journalism for the last 20 years and it's a my passion is really in translating the jargon so that everybody can understand it and everybody has a fair go at getting involved with money their finances investments and etc um I think you know in the latter part of my career I feel you know that I really want to help people and I want to leave a mark and I think you know as you get older you do want to think about the legacy that you leave and what you've achieved and i guess when i was younger i thought that that had to be a huge life-changing thing but now i feel that in a small way i am helping people and you know that's quite satisfying yeah i think you're

underestimated by calling it a small way i think the work that you're doing uh in the awesome messaging that that the money magazine does in in making sometimes quite complex matters much more easy to swallow. And I 100% agree with you around the jargon that seems to be littered through the complete investment arena. It's almost like advisors want to create a new language to scare people so that they're the only ones who can assist them with it. But very refreshing to hear and read the way you are able to break it down into layman's terms that someone as simple as make and understand. So tell us, I'd love you to take us back on your journey before we start talking about the great book that you've just released. And I'd love you to go back as far as

you're comfortable to talk us through what you've invested your time, energy and money in and talk to us about the highs and the lows, what you've learned from and how that's brought you to where you are today okay happy to do that i um i studied economics at university i was i did some work experience at school at the stock exchange and you know this will age me but there were um walkies there at the time and it was a very exciting environment um i really wanted to come out and play in the area but when i did graduate it wasn't a good time and i didn't feel that the people that I'd studied with were my people that I wanted to make a career from so I went thinking back about you know that experience at the stock exchange and thinking about the PR officer who I

thought was amazing and I thought her job sounded great so I thought I'd prefer to get into the PR side of business but every job that I applied for said that I needed some writing experience so I went to the local paper and applied for a role there and started as a cadet um I did all rounds there from you know personal finance to courts to police to education um entertainment on occasion and just really loved journalism you know being able to ask the questions kind of solve the issues ask questions that other people i guess didn't have the access to ask and the access to the people that they could ask um and i think that what i did learn from that was you know journalism is not necessarily about the writing it's about the curiosity and when i've met other journalists

we do have that in common and we tend to gravitate together because we're the nosy ones in the room is that nosiness and i love that expression is that something that's sort of been inbuilt in you way back from as long as you can remember yeah I think so I think I didn't really realize it and I think you know a lot of people you get to the end of high school or towards the end and you start thinking about what kind of careers you could do and you're really in a way limited by the careers of those around you you know doctors kids often become doctors and lawyers kids become lawyers and so on because you're in that world you understand it a bit better um I think I you know my parents did clerical roles and it wasn't terribly exciting so I didn't know what my limits

were really um well I didn't know what I could do so it took a while to get into that area of journalism and you know I think I would have liked to have been a little bit more creative if I'd had I think the guts to do that. Well, I mean, the guts is maybe one word, but I think you're spot on. You're as good as the pool that you're swimming in and the values that you pick up and by osmosis almost that come out of that. You made an interesting comment when you started talking about the stock exchange, one that was an early interest, but then a decision that they weren't your people can you expand on that a little bit is it is that because the the sort of testosterone fueled macho uh sort of um culture at the time was something that you thought no this is not for me

or was it more than that it was part of that but also um you know you go to university and you find your kind of tribe and i guess my tribe was a bit more creative and it wasn't that you know very serious money-making kind of person, and I think that was an interesting lesson. Yeah, I can see with your style, you're clearly very creative. It's interesting that creativity, to some degree, you were looking at economics. Is that because that seemed like the safer career, or what was driving that decision? yeah definitely safer and um i thought it would give more direction to a career if i'd done arts it would have left everything a bit more open and that i guess frightened me a bit at the time

so you know and i was always torn my maths and my english were always very equal those sides of the subject so um you know it was it wasn't a clear decision to go one way or the other so i guess rather than going to the sciences or the arts. Economics was a bit of a middle ground there. Yeah, so you're one of those lucky ones that's got a very active right and left brain by the sounds of things, which is quite rare. Yeah, I didn't realise that people were more one or the other until my very last year at high school when I realised

that not everyone was in all my same classes. So you learn as you go. All right, so I sidelined you a little bit there. So enjoying the journalism career, talk to me about how that career went. But I'd also love you to share what was happening in your personal life because there's sort of parallels here. And with a particular interest in, you know, when you started to lift your sights around the benefits of saving and investing and what did you do when and what was the experience? Where did that get you to? I was a very good saver.

When I started work, I worked from the age of, when you could, 14 and 9 months. I worked as a checkout chick and then I waitressed, I tutored, I did all sorts of part-time jobs. And in my very first job, I had a pretty hard time. I guess looking back, it could be a bit of bullying. but at the time I just felt that, you know, I wasn't getting anywhere. I was put down by, you know, those in charge and it was going to be a long time before I got another good job because they'd brought down my confidence.

So I didn't want to be trapped in that position again where I felt that I had no power and I had no choices. And so while work wasn't really getting anywhere and I was you know in the cadet role for a while I decided I'd buy a house so that at least one part of my life would be moving you know I don't like to really stand still I like to say that something's going ahead and so on a cadet wage I got my first property and I had to put my entire wage into it i worked out the spreadsheets of you know this was the times of very high interest around 14 percent or 14 and a half percent something like that so talking late 80s sort of

that 89 90s yep 90 90ish i think and um you know you couldn't just go onto your bank website then you know and figure out what your repayments would be if it suddenly went up a quarter or a half of sense so I had those big computer sheets and I worked spreadsheets by hand you know of what would happen if it went up half a percent or quarter of a percent and so on and you know I worked out that I needed to pay into the principal as quickly as possible so I put my entire wage in it I tutored virtually every night that I didn't waitress I had I think one night off a week and I had to rent the house out as well for maybe 18 months before I could live in it but at least I felt that I was moving and then I guess everything worked

and then I got another job as an editor at a couple of trade magazines and, you know, I went into the editing side of things, which, you know, I enjoyed a lot. Yeah, just circling back a little bit if I can because you may not know but while I'm an investor across the board, property has been certainly a part of the journey for us and, you know, buying a home is sort of the unspoken Australian dream or it has been for many generations.

Why invest in a house at that stage versus perhaps looking at shares or other things? What was the driver? I wanted the security of a home so that I would have somewhere to live and if at some point I didn't have a job or I wanted to travel or whatever, I had something more solid, I think. And, you know, I understand, obviously, that shares, you can make as much money and so on, but there is something about property that's a mindset, I think, that we feel that we need that bricks and mortar. Do you still feel the same way?

Yes, I do. I feel, I think your own home is different to whether you have a property investment. You know, that's different. Would I choose property over shares as investments? Sometimes. But I think your own home is a completely different issue. Yeah. And it makes me feel secure.

Yeah. There's a much more emotional contingent around the safety and security of a place to call home versus purely the numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Now, thanks for sharing that. Okay. Sorry, I keep taking off on a tangent there. So back into the editing space, talk to us about the trajectory from there.

So from there, I had a job where I was travelling a bit. I was working on a travel magazine and they were sending me to places all around Asia and mainly around Australia and then they sent me on a one-week trip to Greece. and that's when I realised, oh, if I go to Europe, I don't have to necessarily stay two years. So it's not such a big deal. I can come home whenever I want. So I quit the job and I went overseas and I did stay in England

for a couple of years and I loved it, you know, but my father got ill and I had to come home. So that was the end of that. And when I came home, I started working in financial media. Okay. Was that by deliberate choice or just the opportunity arose? The opportunity arose and I felt that it just made a lot of sense. You know, it wasn't a job that a lot of people felt that they could do

or they wanted to do and I felt that it was a good fit and I felt that I could, you know, make a difference with it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and I'm guessing we're talking somewhere in the 90s at this stage of the game, which is at a time when – 2000 by now, but yeah. 2000, yeah. And it was an interesting time.

It was just as people were starting to talk finance and just starting to talk about things like superannuation. You wouldn't really have people at a barbecue talking about super, but it was starting. Yeah, I'd love to go there from it if you don't mind because it's sort of in certain circles talking about money in any description is still taboo to some degree, but there was an elevation around the discussion around money

and finance at that stage. What do you think changed that suddenly made that something that's a bit more trendy to talk about? In a way, I think it was, well, property had one side of it but the other bit was superannuation. People started to realise they had quite a bit of money there and the financial services industry obviously realised that that was money for them as well.

so they were putting out the conversation they wanted to get clients they figured they could do stuff with people's retirement and it became it it just became more of an industry i mean prior to that you know not a lot of before it was compulsory obviously not a lot of people had superannuation so they wouldn't be um necessarily seeing a financial advisor there wasn't really that industry but as superannuation did grow and people started to see balances moving i think that that piqued people's interest they could see some sort of value in that yeah okay yeah because it's certainly uh really from that those fledgling times and and you obviously had a part in uh lifting people's awareness and horizons around that discussion about money talk talk to us about

where that led to in terms of the career from that point? Related but not related. So I took a couple of roles. I was working on Financial Planning Magazine and Super Review at Reid and I was headhunted to do a couple of dot-com start-ups, which was a very interesting time and they didn't last, But it was an interesting time just to see how people started a startup, you know, with that very strong sales culture and that blue sky thinking and, you know, if you don't really understand and you can't make sense of the numbers, would you invest in something like that? And, you know, the lessons came out that no, you wouldn't and you shouldn't.

they were pretty pretty heady times and uh and i i guess immersing yourself in that uh would have been a lot of a lot of fun a lot of hours a lot of hard work but a lot a lot of fun in the in the the promise of what might come out of that would that be fair to say yeah fair to say and it was good fun i went from one to another knowing that it was risky but just thinking it is fun and it's a good learning experience and i you know i'm curious and i like to learn and you know sometimes i don't give up because i want to see what will happen next you know that's the curiosity side of it yeah of course okay so uh so a diversion into the dot-com space with but it sounds like you're doing that in parallel with some of the work you're doing with financial

planning magazine and the others is that right or uh no that was just um a totally different job But, you know, that lasted for probably a year, the two of them combined, and then I freelanced for a while and then I started at iFi and Morningstar and that took me to a role on the corporate side. I thought I'd try the other side and see if, you know, I thought that if I got into marketing I could help create products and so, well, it's not quite like that.

And it was interesting to see the other side of business and then now I've obviously come back to the journalism side and I think the time's right for me to do that. Yeah, I guess what I love about what I'm hearing is that you don't put too many limitations on yourself in terms of being prepared to have a go and a lot of people do. A lot of people sort of get the golden handcuffs

and there's a fear then to step off into something new that your courage to be able to have the confidence to do that, where's that come from um well i think life should always have a bit of a fun element to it and i think if you're not enjoying things you've got to figure out you know why that is and look at the other areas in your life that um make what you're doing worthwhile i don't have children so there's a bit more flexibility for me um in what i need to do but um i think that if i did maybe it would have limited me a bit more and i would have had to be more focused on money perhaps but then i think if you're in that situation then you've just got to make the most of you know what it is

that is giving you pleasure is it having a family and being with family and doing things in the things that your job might afford you even though you're not quite enjoying your job you know you've got to take happiness where you can get it really yeah 100 percent uh i wouldn't mind just tapping into into something here if you don't mind uh you mentioned you haven't had children was that a by choice exercise or or uh do you mind talking about that my wife and i haven't been able to uh my second wife haven't been able to have kids so it hasn't been an option for us but it hasn't been an issue either in terms of the way we embrace life what's your thoughts around that i never would have thought i wouldn't have kids i always wanted to have kids it just

never worked out that i was with the right person at the right time so you know you make the choices and then just make the best of it. Yeah, yeah. Talking about affairs of the heart, the journey in concert with what you're doing career-wise, have you had any challenges in that regard that influenced the way you think about money now as a consequence? I always thought I would be more sensible with money once I had children.

So, you know, there's that limitation that never really happened. But, you know, as I get older and I think about, you know, retirement and so on, it does make me think about where I spend my money and, you know, what it is that gives me pleasure and, you know, what are the worthwhile expenses. And, you know, in the book, The Joy of Money, we talk a lot about conscious spending and we don't try and tell people to stick to a strict budget, but we tell people that, you know, think about what you're spending and if it's not giving you pleasure, then why are you doing it? Like, could you get more pleasure by doing something else with your money? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. great that's a beautiful segue into a discussion around the joy of money it's a it's a great read

you're very generous in allowing me to read a copy in preparation for our discussion today and i'm really going to recommend the listeners to go out and grab themselves a copy either download under the kindle or you can get it at big w and pretty much anywhere good books are sold i'd love to have a chat about it because I again I might be showing my age here Julie but as soon as I heard the title it sort of echoed a book back in the early 70s that everyone pretended they didn't read but had a had a copy at home tucked under the bed the joy of sex but um that's exactly what we thought when we picked up the name we thought oh that that will you know get some memories going for some people you know what they found under their parents beds or something I always like

the pictures that was the most interesting part for me at that stage but uh but uh tell us about that because i i actually love the title because that there's a lot of people who have a very negative association with money and the title straight away talks about the pleasure and the joy that's associated with it talk to us about how you arrived at that title and then if you wouldn't mind sort of giving us a a bit of a rundown on who the book's for and and what are some of the key messages as you say it uh so my co-author um kate mccallum who's a financial advisor and i we we would meet at a lot of events and a lot of them were um female events about money and talking to a lot of our friends and colleagues uh we found that women didn't often

feel joy when they spoke about money and they felt that it was a bit exclusive they didn't understand the dark and it wasn't interesting um it just didn't it just didn't pique their interest it just wasn't something that they would naturally talk about how women approach money is it's not a discrete subject it's how how you can enable whatever it is you want else to happen in your life you know how you can have the family life you want how you can have the holidays the house what whatever else it is that you want to make up your life it all comes down to money but it's it was difficult to put the two together i think for a lot of women because it seemed very masculine in the language and um it just seemed a bit exclusive and you know

i guess not as much now but typically if you saw a financial advisor often they would talk to the man in the relationship and there's you know a lot of stories about you know even real estate you know men are taken more seriously in those kinds of decisions and i think that it's worn a lot of women down and so we wanted to sort of bring back joy and let women know that they could take control of things and by doing so they could create more choices in their lives yeah i love it absolutely love it it's it's interesting uh the way that we sort of uh create these stereotypes that we inadvertently fit into at times because I know in my wife and my own case,

we do what I call the Madison. I don't know whether you've seen the cycling race where you've got someone going fast for a lap and the other one's up on the banks and then they change and they do a relay and they swap over. We've done the worker wealth builder routine. So one of us works for a period

and the other builds the wealth and then we change spots. And so there's a, I guess we see money very much as just an enabler and a volume switch for lifestyle. That's pretty much how we see it. So, and my wife has always used the expression of seeing money as another member of the family that we need to nurture and grow because it'll, you know, pay us back in spades down the track. So it's interesting how, but, you know, going way back to school days, money sort of almost gets this association with mathematics, and if you're not good at maths, you're not going to be good with money, and that then filters through people's perceptions, men and women, for the rest of their life quite often. What's your feelings around that? Well, it does go back a long way. when you do talk about maths it's you've got you're spot on you know some people don't feel that they're very good at it and they you know then won't look at things that use maths whether

it be money or whether it's something scientific and I think it's it's the blinkers that people put on because they just feel that it's not for them and I think you know you have to deal with money you you can't not and I think you have to somehow find a way that makes sense to you and we thought that if it's the language that's stopping people and the lack of understanding of you know how you might get started or what other people are doing you know that we wanted to change that and so we give examples through the book of you know how other people are going towards retirement and what they've got and there's no right or wrong it's just that some people have chosen i don't know to spend their money earlier and um not save as much because they found

something else more important like you know sending their kids to a private school or living overseas or whatever it is but i think especially women we like to see role models and we like to see what other people are doing to give us confidence that you know we're not alone and our decisions are not necessarily wrong. Yeah, yeah, no, it's very well said. There's a whole bunch that I love about the book and I love the way you've weaved in the musical references to some of the great songs over the last 40-odd years

as sort of subheaders right through it. And I'm going to whet the listener's appetite because you're going to have to buy the book to find out what I'm talking about. We might put out a playlist at some point. Yeah, I would love to. That's a great idea, actually. You've got some great frameworks in the book, though,

and one that I love because I think it, without knowing you very well, I think it describes yourself as well as the book, is the be sassy exercise. Can you talk to us about what being sassy actually breaks down into? Yeah, so it's a structure that we think, you know, it helps you be in control of your money. And so SASSI stands for S for Spending. And you've got to, you know, figure out what your position is

and be honest, you know, what is your current spending and, you know, how does your cash flow work? You know, the most basic lesson that people ask me, you know, what's the most valuable investment lesson? And I think, well, it's actually spend less than you earn. It doesn't get any more difficult than that, does it? But, you know, not everybody manages to do that. And, you know, how much less you can spend than you earn

is what makes the difference. Yeah, it's so true. Perhaps I was lucky. My old man always said it's not what you earn, it's what you spend that counts. Yeah, good lesson. Yeah, very early lesson. And the sort of lifestyle inflation tends to get in people's way these days.

they'll get a get a promotion at work and they'll they'll then reward themselves by spending more and before you know it they're earning great money but they that they either haven't got any savings or worse still they've got massive credit card bills and and yeah living on the edge lessons that are really coming back now you know with covid as well you know the lessons our parents gave us because they're a bit more frugal and they'd live through harder times yeah i totally agree uh so we got to spending so uh run us through the rest of sassy so the next one is assets assets and liabilities assess what your net wealth is and create whatever the target is that you're aiming towards and then you've got to put some structure in place you know how are you going

to get to where you want to get is it by creating different kinds of buckets and different kinds of investments so that's your structure you've got to set rules and define triggers you know um you know what are you prepared to go into debt for for instance um what are the triggers that are going to um pull you back from investing etc and then you've really got to have a yearly review just to keep on track where are you going have you managed to be where you thought you'd be why or why not how are you going to make it up so you know that's that's really the framework yeah i just think it's a really easy way to remember that with a catchy catchy word that then it's fairly easy to to capsulate the sleep at night test is something that i often refer to

people uh with as well uh would you mind just uh sharing what you consider to be the sleep at night test for the listeners yeah everybody's a bit different about you know how how much they can risk and sleep at night if you feel that whatever you've invested in or whatever your savings are or whatever makes you uncomfortable and you can't sleep at night then that's not right for you and something has to change some people are able to have a lot of debt and be okay with it and you know that's fine for them as you know they've done the sums but other people will find that a lot less debt will change the way that they feel about the risk that they're taking and it's not worth it you know even if you've done the sums and it makes sense to take out more debt or invest in

more high risk shares if you're if you don't feel personally comfortable with it then you shouldn't do it. And in that same way, you know, I felt that I needed to have a house for security. If I didn't and I'd invested that money instead, that would have been no good for my sleeping at night. Yes, spot on. Absolutely right. I guess the fine line with that is that knowledge often reduces fear. So the more you learn about something, the more comfortable you become with it. And I guess what I encourage people to do is to read books like yours, because in doing so, In increasing your knowledge, you tend to eliminate the uncertainty, which then allows you to be more comfortable with investing in something that early on you were probably quite fearful of. And it goes more than investing as well.

It goes with your jobs and your skills and so many other things. Yeah, absolutely right. You've got another great thing that I loved in the book, and you referred to the 57-year itch. Do you mind expanding on what that means for the listeners? yeah I had a partner who um he was 57 and you know wanted to change his life and um make the difference because at that age you can really see you your retirement and a lot of I guess it's men in that situation particularly get very panicked that they're not going to have enough money so they think of ways that they can either make money save money um and do it quickly and so

um when i did mention this partner to someone in the financial services industry they said oh yeah that's the 57 year itch it's a common thing you know that you get to that age you start panicking um it's not far away and you know what can you do and it's not always a good idea you know going into a high-risk investment or moving overseas, you know, like my partner did to save money. He went to Bali thinking it would be a whole new cheap lifestyle, but, you know, without doing the proper research and finding out how you would be taxed and how your medical bills would be paid

and so on, you've got to still do the research. So, you know, if you get to 57 and you're a bit panicked about things, we'll probably seek advice at that stage, I think. 100% agree and I often refer to it as the oh shit my super's not enough moment because they sort of get into those late 50s and they suddenly realise that they haven't put much into super and they haven't invested in anything else and so my god I'm either going to have to keep working forever or live off the smell of an oily rag. What do you say to

people that you've been dealing with over the years to really, because one of the challenges I have is trying to engage people to recognise the benefit of while they mightn't have time now but make the time so that they can use their time to get their time back by investing wisely at this stage. How have you overcome that, oh, she'll be right, I've got plenty of time, I'll get around to it thing

that we hear so often? I guess the best way is to give examples. And we've been doing a little bit of research about couples and how they manage their money and you know there were times where I would think it's the most boring thing to sit down with your partner and talk about finances and how you're going to achieve what it is you want to achieve and whether that's retire by a holiday house or whatever and I have learned that those with the strongest relationships are those who can sit down and discuss money and how they're going to manage into the future and when they started talking

about money from an early age it just brings the couples together in a um in a way that affects everything about their lives like they're working towards something they've got similar goals it's a very um good tightening of a relationship totally agree and i hadn't thought about it julia but that's what you've just described is exactly you just talked about myself and my great wife Sonia uh one of the first things we did when we got together because we'd come out of relationships in the past we actually sat down and said okay let's paint a picture of our ideal life and agree on what that is and then everything we do from now until then will be about making that happen and that meant that we talked very openly about money and what we'd invest in and

what we wouldn't and that's where that the sort of the worker and the wealth builder uh sort of strategy that we adopted to make that happen occurred but and I probably assume that most people do that but what I'm what I'm hearing from you that's probably not the case no some people find it really awful to talk about money and they just will avoid it at all costs and um and that that makes the whole relationship difficult because then one person's working toward something and the other person's not and you know that creates all kinds of relationship dramas but you know to get people engaged in money in their super for example it's so difficult and um you know for a while when i was you know working at a corporate and we kept trying to get clients

to focus on their super we realized they just can't see that far into the future and even a simple hack like getting an app on your phone to show you how you would look in 40 years helps people understand that oh yeah i will get older and you know i will need that money and so and that kind of made people focus a little bit more. Love it. Love that. Yeah, that makes it real. That really starts to make it tangible rather than this.

It's so far away. I don't need to worry about it now sort of. For me, I find it exciting when you hear those sums of the compound interest that builds from if you put this money in when you're 20, what it's going to be when you're 60. And I know that's a long time away, but if you put the money really early and then you don't do very much for quite a long time it's still going to be to your benefit so i think you know when you play with the numbers that's also

quite fun for some people oh i love it yeah i guess i sort of made a career out of helping people to see the benefits of that given what it's done for my wife and i because at the time is really a very key ingredient in that and that's certainly a sort of a sub theme that i picked up from reading your book, The Joy of Money. Something else that I thought that you touched on well that doesn't get much airplay, actually, and it's often sort of under-assessed or forgotten about is the importance of insurances.

And again, I'm using the expression, you need to get your ducks in a row, because you've got three ducks that you described very well in that section about where you might end up. but can you elaborate a little bit on your view of insurances and what the listeners should be doing about it? Insurances are really complicated and they're really expensive and I think that that turns off a lot of people

and I'm particularly worried about now when particularly income protection insurance, it's become very expensive and people have reduced incomes and, you know, job security isn't necessarily there right now, it's something that I'm afraid will fall off. And so, you know, I'm very passionate about it and I'll feature about that in Money Magazine in the next month. But what we say is we've got four ducks.

So if you're not insured and nothing bad happens, you're a very lucky duck, everything's good, fine. If you're insured and nothing bad happens, you're also pretty lucky because you don't really want anything to happen. This is money that you've put aside in case it does, but you still don't want to have any of the accidents or illnesses that you would have to have to make a claim.

If you're insured and something bad does happen, then you're a close call duck because you've got something to help you through whatever the bad thing is that's happened to you. But the worst one is if you're not insured and something bad happens, then we say you're a dead duck because perhaps you're going to find it's difficult for yourself to live if you have lived or it's going to have a terrible impact on your family and those that you really love.

And often at the most inopportune times, the dead duck scenarios generally happen after major life events when you've got a whole bunch of emotional stuff you're trying to deal with. It might be someone with cancer or someone who's died or there's a very significant emotional event and the last thing you want to be worrying about is how you're going to put food on the table. Absolutely.

So, yeah, great analogy. I love the duck analogy again because you're sort of painting a really clear picture in words that makes it very easy for us to understand, Julia. So I think you've done an awesome job around that. So something also I'd love to dig into because you talk about the importance of relationships in the book. and I guess what I'm seeing with people that we're dealing with

is a growing fear and a vulnerability by both parties, both male, female or in a same-sex relationship, which needs to be dealt with but can potentially create some issues in the separation that might lead to problems. What's your view around that and how do you think couples can best tackle that to look after themselves

and preserve the relationship long-term? Well, a couple of things. I think that, you know, we've talked about insurance and we've, you know, talked about the importance of being insured even though the events that you would need to claim for are hopefully very unlikely. But, you know, divorce is something that is quite common and I think that there needs to be an idea of what if

because it could happen and there is vulnerability for both sides on that. we also felt that we couldn't really write a book about money and women without including relationships because that is really important to women and that is how women think about everything it's around relationships whether it's partner relationships whether it's children relationships whether it's extended family parents whatever it is it was very important for us to include that when it comes to partners i think there are so many things that people need to discuss um up front to make sure you know that they're united in ideas about money and values i i think

those two things are very closely tied together um you know things like whether you have joint accounts whether you have your own separate accounts um whether you have your own credit cards, all those kinds of things. I think whichever choice you make and everybody's different, it still needs to be something that's considered. That's the key, I think, is to have a conversation and sort of going back to the SASE breakdown with have the rules and triggers, at least agree on the rules around the way you're both together and individually going to handle money so that when things do crop up, you've thought about them and it doesn't become an issue i mean in most relationships if one party just goes

out and buys a car on the spur of the moment it's going to cause issues and so there are things that you're going to have to discuss so i think you do need to figure out the rules in your relationship and and i think that you know from people that i've spoken to a lot of people who seem to have good money relationships as couples they you know maybe pick a date where the credit card bill comes in or something like that to sort of sit down and see how they're tracking and, you know, what they want to do with the money that they've saved or how they're going to manage to pay the bills that they've accrued, whatever it is, but that you feel like you're united in those big decisions.

Yeah, 100% agree. Awesome. Okay, look, you've given us some great coverage around some of the key aspects of the joy of money. As I say, it is a really easy and I had a smile on my face a lot of the time when I was reading the book because of your references back to, you know, the songs of the last four decades, which rang very true to me. I would encourage the listeners, if you're really wanting to get

a great foundation, and not just women either, I think it's equally applicable to the male side of the equation in terms of the fundamentals that you talk about in the book, Julia. Absolutely. There's no real difference. We just thought our language was, you know, maybe easier for women and we thought of people like ourselves that we were writing it for, but there's no differences in any of the concepts at all.

Yeah, and I 100% agree. So I guess something I wouldn't mind you just getting your thoughts on, given your, you know, instrumental role in co-writing the book, but also, you know, broadest fear in your role as, you know, editor-at-large with Money Magazine. given that we're just sort of coming through and and in in victoria still still working through the impacts of the contagion uh would love you to share what you think we've learned and i'm hoping it's a big wake-up call but also you know if if you were talking to a couple and this is not

financial advice but just getting your thoughts you know a couple in their mid-30s to 40s they might have a home and a home loan and they've got some super and and some in savings what what would you be doing now given the world that we're living in um i think and i hope that people have come to realize what is really important to them um you know and mostly it is family and friends and you know everything around the home um i think with most of us probably saved a lot of money that now we probably realize maybe was unnecessary to spend um and i think that the old lessons of our parents or grandparents about reusing recycling um repairing you know they're all coming back again i think it's also highlighted the importance of actually having

savings you know i think a lot of people don't have any savings at all and you know if you're probably maybe 30 or under you might never have had any hard times that you would have needed the savings for you might have you know been saving I don't know for a holiday or something like that but not having any savings put by just in case of something and I think that that's important to have those savings because again it gives you some sort of choice and I think also you know people will probably start to think about are they in the jobs they really want and love or, you know, do things need to change on a broader level? Yeah, 100% agree.

And I mean, you've got a great tool in the book, the 50-30-20 rule, where effectively you're putting 20% of any income into some form of savings and or rainy day fund, which I think is just such an easy way to sort of break things down. And it's amazing, you know, once you start putting the 20% away and you can't touch it, it's amazing how well you can live off the 80% that you are spending on other things. Tell me, sort of coming back to the personal exercise, because you talked about freedom and you've talked about choice. Paint us a picture of what your ideal world and your ideal lifestyle looks like in terms of what you're doing, when, where, and how that shapes up. um i guess i'd like to have a bit more flexibility to be a bit more creative and you know um you know

i i would love to be writing in a team that does something like seinfeld you know sitting with other um funny people and you know that kind of inspiring environment i'd love to have an opportunity to do something like that down the track um lifestyle you know otherwise you know a holiday house is something that, you know, it's a thought at the moment and, you know, not necessarily a good financial thought, but, you know, it's something that's there. Tell me, what are, and again, this is a personal exercise, what are you investing in to help make that become a reality?

um i did put money into the stock market um when everything was down in march i thought that it was a good opportunity you know for the long term to um buy things at a discount so to speak um i also have an investment property which again is another long-term investment so they're the things that i feel for me i need a bit of enforced saving so the investment property is something that you know is making me contribute to very regularly um and it's got something that just keeps me very um tied into what's happening in the markets it keeps my focus there which is good for what i do of course yeah you're sort of walking your own talk and and then you'll you know at least you've got a spread between property and chairs so that uh it gives

you some protection depending on what's happening in the cycles as far as that goes something i wouldn't mind delving into because i know you've got some expertise around this and that's self managed super funds given the work that you've been doing over the years and it's that it sort of had a mixed mixed run and it sort of changed over time and of course some of them the institutional funds are now creating much more funds that you can much more actively manage so what's your view on self-managed super and who's it appropriate for and who it's not um my personal opinion is i think self-managed super is often very expensive and i don't think a lot of people need it where they think that um they do i think a lot of people could make just as good investments um

you know in other funds as you just said but you know unless you've got a really good reason of why you want to get in and the investments that you can only have through a self-managed super fund, then it's a very costly exercise. And also there's a lot of compliance related to it. And I think that people have to realise that it's not completely self-managed, you still need a lot of help. And, again, it's do the research and see if it is right for you. Yeah, I totally agree.

The other thing that's suddenly had a resurgence, and I was shaking my head the first time, But given what's happened around the world, the cryptocurrency exercises is suddenly back in flavour of the month. What's your views on crypto? It takes me back to those days on the dot coms. And I don't know a lot about crypto and I don't feel, you know, thoroughly comfortable with it. So it's not something I personally would invest in. I hear other people have made money, but for me, it's something that I would have to know a lot more about and feel a lot more comfortable about before I put any of my money in.

And if I miss out on the gain through that, so be it. Yeah, I'm a bit the same. My biggest concern around crypto, I think, is liquidity because it's easy to get into these things, but you've got to have a buy to get out. And I think that's where the challenges are going to be until such time as it reaches a critical mass where that equation changes. So, yeah, interesting. Okay, well, look, been a really good chat around all of that. Any final thoughts in relation to the sorts of commentary that are coming through Money Magazine that are topics of interest

that the listeners would love to hear your thoughts on? Well, the main topics at the moment are, you know, around COVID still and, you know, where to invest, when the market's going to recover. how where they're going to get where people are going to get money from in the future the career side of things you know is it a good time to upskill you know what's happening with government payments everything that we think of really you know for ourselves it's those saving money things and I guess one of the things that I've really learned through money is you can save a lot of money through your providers your utility providers and just by

asking for discounts at places and it can make a lot of difference to the money that you have at the end of the year if you've saved it right totally agree i'm in our business we've got a broking arm of our business that deals in the residential home loan investment loan space and it's not uncommon for us to be able to slice you know up to 1200 bucks a month of payments just by restructuring and and putting it with a more competitive lender and we actually had a couple of clients where we've saved over two thousand dollars a month just by uh asking some hard questions and and uh restructuring what they're doing so often there's a almost a free pay rise under our nose but we're just not not making the calls and doing the negotiation to and that's

that's mobile phone bills it's it's utility costs it's it's home loans it's insurances there's a wealth of opportunity there to significantly reduce our our monthly running expenses particularly at a time now where for a lot of people they're struggling with that so uh no that that's awesome um what i would love just to touch on before i slip into the the ambush round uh julia is uh i loved some commentary in the book where you talked about uh you know talking about saving and investing and this is something i haven't haven't read anywhere else but i think it's a really valid point that the saving is actually more important than the investing can you expand on that a bit for us yeah um you know i've worked with financial

planners for a very long time and you know one of the messages that they've always said is it's not those on the highest incomes that have the most um investments or doing the best it's those who can save and be disciplined because unless you can do that you've got nothing to invest yeah so you know everybody's got the ability to put something aside and to you know spend less than you earn but it's that very simple message that doesn't seem to be um in everybody's grasp for some reason and i think we do that we get a pay rise and you want to live up to the people who have got that kind of money and you know you've got a bit of restaurants and you might wear better clothes and so on it's hard to be the one that doesn't do all that yeah true very true

it it takes a level of courage to be able to step outside of what the the crowd's doing um awesome okay well look uh i'm going to shift straight into the ambush series if i can and there are five quick questions that the listeners love to enjoy your words of wisdom on uh the first one is What's your favourite quote and why? Well, I think today it's fortune favours the brave. I think you've got to take a chance, you know, have the guts to go out and challenge yourself and push boundaries and, you know, be prepared to fail to get ahead.

I think, yeah, it's a time where you've got to have a go. Yeah, 100% agree. Apart from the joy of money, what's the other top book that you'd recommend people read and why? For financial books, I think I would go back to Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I think just the idea that people with money think differently to those people without money and I just believe very strongly

that everybody should have the same access to the information so that you can make the best decisions. So I just found that that has always stuck with me and I thought that was a good idea. Yeah, that was a light bulb book for me back in the 90s. Really, at the time, it was the trigger that really led me on the course that now gives us the lifestyle we enjoy and that the fundamentals in that book are as true today as what they were then.

So, yeah, that's a cracker. Now, this one's a little bit left field, but a lot of Aussies feel like they pay too much tax. so what's the top legal thing that you've done to minimise the tax that you pay, Julia? I guess what, an investment property? Yeah. You know, the more tax you pay, the more money you're earning

so, you know, I guess that's a good thing and we live in a country where we do have good safety nets for people so it's something almost worth paying tax for. Yeah, totally agree. Switching back into the investment sphere for a minute, What's both the worst and the best piece of investment advice that you've ever received today? Something my dad always used to tell me was save more and spend less.

And he'd always be telling me, I just think about spending. And it's so true. And I've just realised, you know, in the last couple of months, I'm always looking for, you know, a discount of something or a good price on something. But it's always about the spending side of things, not the saving side of things. So I'm trying to flick my thinking about that.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And then sort of backing up behind that, I guess, and sort of related in a way, what's a personal habit that you've developed that you believe contributes most to your success today? Personally, I like to keep money in separate accounts. You know, I like to have one for investment, one for expenses,

one for spending and, you know, one for taxes if necessary. it helps me keep everything um discreet and i know where it all is and i know that if i you know have money in the investment account i can go and buy shares or if you know i have one in the spending account i can go and buy something else it just it helps me a lot yeah it's the old jam jar philosophy that yeah and other people find that really messy but that's the way i like it yeah i did you know what uh what you've got for what purpose which just makes it really simply mentally to be able to do something with i think no i'd love that swinging into the the final question and it's a big one uh if i gave you a microphone that

spoke to every single one of the 7.7 billion people that are currently alive in the world and i gave you one minute to talk what would you say um i i guess it's important to acknowledge um that money isn't everything but it does give you the ability to make choices and the choices that allow you to live your best life and whatever that is whether it's helping other people or whether it's um you know building um a life of creativity or um the pleasure through some other means you know family whatever it is i think you know you take stock of what you have what you want then look at your money your abilities and try and make the most of both of those to give you greater choices to live the life you want

beautifully said beautifully said that uh and i just love the the embracing the fact that you know life is you know freedom is really about choices and you can only have choices in the world that we live in if you've got the money to enable those so again very well said and a great summary really of the discussion we've had today yeah for those that uh sort of want to hear more and and know more of the work that you're doing obviously the money magazine is a is a great place to start that they can they can be reading regularly every month uh we're also online um have two newsletters one on wednesdays and one on saturdays okay just just uh refer to those again for us if you go to moneymag.com.au you can sign up to our newsletters and there's you know plenty

of content on the website as well good to know i haven't got those myself so i'm going to tap into those and we've talked about the book you can get at big w and and good bookstores any other ways that the listeners can interact with you julia um we're just developing a website called thejoyofmoney.com.au so hopefully that's up now so if anyone wants to get in touch through there that would be great fantastic look um really appreciate your time i really enjoyed uh rubbing shoulders with you on the the money debates so i hope that becomes a regular event because i just think talking about money and particularly in a debate debate format where you're sort of seeing the pros and cons and then allowing people to make a more informed judgment is a great way to go just

as you've done with your book, The Joy of Money. So we're looking forward to staying in touch with you and thanks for being generous with your time today. Thanks very much, Lushy. Thanks, Julia. Well, Freedom Fighters, how good was that? To get a summary of all this investment gold in the show notes, just email me on hello at khgroup.com.au.

It's H-E-L-L-O at khgroup.com.au. or check us out at www.bushymartin.com.au forward slash GetInvested. I look forward to joining you next week for another episode of the GetInvested podcast. So thanks for listening. And as always, dream as if you live forever and live as if you die tomorrow.