Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: Part 1: Vince Scully on the latte fallacy and other money myths

Episode Date: September 27, 2020

A lot of people are operating on defunct money myths that are misleading at best and destructive at worst. Myths that appear to make sense at first glance but have often passed their expiry date. This is where today’s guest Vince Scully comes in to help you clear the money myths. Vince is a veteran Financial Adviser, Author and Financial Wellness Advocate and the founder of Life Sherpa – an online platform that helps you make money and investing accessible and affordable.  He helps you to master the art of living the life you want with the money you have. Many myths sound credible but are dangerous to your wealth and happiness. Some of these myths include: “Money doesn’t buy happiness” “Rent money is dead money” “Two incomes are better than one” “You need a lot of money to start investing” And the biggest myth of all … “Cutting out your morning latte will make you rich.” This has prompted Vince to author his great book ‘The Latte fallacy and Other Money Myths.’ It addresses the commonly held, but incorrect view, that giving up your morning coffee can make you rich.  The premise of this approach is that a lot of little expenses over time add up to very large sums of money. So all you have to do is cut out your morning latte and hey presto you’re wealthy – right? Wrong! This great book debunks all of these misleading myths and gives you the tools that will actually make a real difference in your life. Over the many years Vince has worked in finance, he’s discovered that successfully navigating the world of money is not about having the best plan or choosing the best investment or even earning the most money. Neither is it about scrimping and saving. He has realised that the less time we spend planning how to get the most from our money, the more time we spend worrying about it. What makes the difference is truly understanding what you want and spending your money in a way that gets you closer to achieving it.  If you’d like to win an ebook copy of Vince’s book, just email me at [e-mail] with the word Get Invested in the subject header and then tell us the one luxury that you refuse to give up … and Vince will award a free book to the best entry. Runners up will all receive a free ebook copy of my award winning book ‘Get Invested’. And Vince has shared so much gold from his book and his unique Life Sherpa approach in our deep dive conversation that I’ve split it into two value packed episodes. In today’s first part he answers your burning questions and gives you clarity on: How to set smarter goals The benefits of diversification Why asset allocation is important He paints out the 8 steps to financial freedom And concludes with his 10 commandments of money So if you want to know how to live the life you want with the money you have, sit back and enjoy this very informative chat with Vince Scully. Get Invested is the podcast dedicated to time poor professionals who want to work less and live more. Join Bushy Martin, one of Australia’s top 10 property specialists, as he and his influential guests share know-how on the ways investing in property can unlock the life you always dreamed about and secure your financial future. Remember to subscribe on your favourite podcast player, and if you're enjoying the show please leave us a review. Find out more about Get Invested here https://bushymartin.com.au/get-invested-podcast/  Want to connect with Bushy? Get in touch here https://bushymartin.com.au/contact/  This show is produced by Apiro Media - http://apiropodcasts.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I have this discussion with a lot of our members at LifeShare who bought into the trend, the FIRE movement, you know, financial independence, retire early. And, you know, many are setting goals, you know, I want to retire at 35 or 40, pick a number. But unless you actually know what that really means, it's pretty hard to know why that's worth toasting the rest of your lifetime earnings. So I think that sort of comes back to we talk about smart ergos, you know, which is the original smart, which is, you know, specific, measurable, actionable, realistic, and time-bound. Yeah.

And then we add the ER, which we say stands for emotionally resonant. And that is, can you answer the question that I will, when I achieve this goal, I will be fill in the blank, I will do fill in the blank, and I will feel fill in the blank. And if you can't answer all of those, the goal becomes meaningless. This is all a bad purpose. you know so if you yeah that and you know when we look at retirement planning particularly people who are got the fire bug um yeah so well financial dependence is not a number that you can achieve by

a day enough is you know enough money to sleep at night enough purpose to get up in the morning and enough joy to sustain you through the day and if you don't have all three you've missed the point welcome to the get invested podcast where we share great conversations with experts from all walks of life to uncover their secret know-how where they invest their time their skills and their money and the benefits that this has created you see the truth is that everyone invests every minute every day we're investing our time our skills our energy and our money in something some of us are investing consciously some unconsciously sometimes for good sometimes for bad and sometimes for no impact. Get Invested will help you to start living by design,

not by default. I'm going to help you to make it happen, not let it happen. You'll hear the top tips on how you can live with conscious intent so that you can live more, work less, and leave a living legacy by investing now. Listen to the show to discover the top tips on how to get started, make the most of your investment journey, and ultimately to be living your dream, not someone else's. More episodes can be found on iTunes or at bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested. Thanks for listening. And now let's get invested. Hi Freedom Fighters. When I retire, I'm going to do this. When I retire, I'm going to do that. How many times have you said that or heard that? And what do you immediately think of

or feel when you hear the word retirement. Retirement is generally associated with pottering in the garden, playing bowls and bingo, looking after your grandchildren, spending winters in Queensland, and perhaps volunteering in the community. A time that's generally associated with slowing down, stepping aside,

and letting others take charge. The word retirement normally conjures up negative images of a shrinking lifestyle, of surviving until you pass. So what does retirement mean to you? What lifestyle images does it conjure up in your mind? The dictionary definition of retiring is to depart, remove and withdraw.

But is that what you really want to do for 30 years or more? For me, the word retirement is synonymous with a living death sentence, an early ending like incarceration in a concentration camp where you wither on the vine and die a little bit more with every passing day with nothing more to look forward to and only your memories of past glories to keep you company.

It's for this reason that retirement isn't even in my vocabulary. But if you're going to use the term, like many do, in the words of Dean Wagonsback, let's redefine, rethink and reimagine it. Interestingly, in Japan, they don't even have a word that means retirement. Their word for the later stage in life is ikigai, which roughly translates to the reason you wake up in the morning. Now, I don't know about you, but this sounds a lot better than withdrawing from society. So why is it that we define retirement the way we do?

Our definition has been based on a single generation in history, affectionately referred to as the greatest generation. No generation before and no generation after will ever have a similar kind of retirement. You see, up until the late 19th century, there was no retirement. It wasn't until 1883 that the German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck from Prussia created the first modern pension. This pension provided financial assistance to Germans over the age of 65 who no longer wished to work. But get this, Bismarck was on a pretty safe bet at the time because the average German only lived until the age of 45 back then. Until the last century, retirement was pretty much the same for everybody. You worked until you were no longer able to and then you died.

then came the exception people born in the 1920s what has been dubbed the greatest generation they lived through the global great depression then world war ii and they were rewarded social security or the doll was started in the mid-1930s and companies and corporations offered pensions and lifetime employment for the first and only time in history at the time you could access free university education and I was lucky enough to come in on the tale of this in the late 1970s and together these three things provided financial and economic stability and for the first time in history life expectancy started to creep above 65. The greatest generation were lucky enough to enjoy life in their golden years and unfortunately much

of our current entrenched thinking our attitudes and our expectations about money and retirement comes from our parents or our grandparents from this time. That's where we've gotten our current definition of retirement, a diminishing life after work with shrinking financial stability. But for those of us that are following on from here, retirement is going to look very different if retirement as a concept actually survives at all. Things have changed dramatically in recent years.

Few people work for the same company for long periods of time, most lack enough superannuation, age pensions are dwindling, and high and lingering debt have combined to undermine financial stability and independence. In addition, we're also living an average of 10 years longer due to improved health and medical treatments, and with better education and less physically demanding work,

we're capable of doing more for longer in life. Our current and future generations will have a very different experience or notion of retirement if it survives at all. We're seeing a return to life experience like previous generations. But instead of suffering mind-numbing and back-breaking labour late in life and working till we drop, we've got a unique opportunity to create our own new version of later life. That's unencumbered by the outdated definition of the old retirement that no longer applies and has no relevance. And redefining retirement also means reimagining later life.

While it's convenient for marketers and politicians to group people into ages and stages, like childhood from infant through to adolescence with different growth expectations, followed by adulthood, young adults, then to middle-aged and empty nesters to separate different needs and different goals. But to lump the remaining into one group, the retirees, doesn't begin to cover the diversity of ages, stages, abilities and needs of this group for the over 65s. Many of these will need to continue to work to provide ongoing financial stability. And the others will need to overcome the sense of social isolation that flows from not having a job to go to.

And a few will have the financial freedom to enjoy a life of leisure in their golden years. Redefining or abolishing retirement means redefining the assumptions we make and the questions we ask of ourselves and others. For some, the idea of counting down the days until you can escape a long-term job you hate so that you can play golf, drink coffee all day or join the Blue Nomads and Caravan around Australia is very appealing to finally escape the rat race. But a life without purpose doesn't last very long. many others like myself have a very different view i want to challenge you regardless of your

current age to leave the concept of retirement behind at worst at best and at worst to redefine retirement away from depart remove withdraw to a new definition life doesn't dull and come to a slow grinding boring end when you retire for me life is only going to get better then I believe that later living can be and should be the best years of your life How much better will all our lives be If we realise and expect that the best is yet to come And here are some interesting research stats And thoughts on ageing that I borrowed from James Cobb

By 2040, one in four of us will be over 65 That's a quarter of us and one in five of us that are alive today will live to be 100 which means the Queen will be writing a letter of congratulations to centenarians every minute. My good great grandmother lived until she was 103 so perhaps there's hope for me there.

And here's the interesting thing 9 out of 10 of us are not looking forward to old age which means that 90% of us are not looking forward to our own long term future. this is a scary perception and a pretty bad outlook because research also reveals that the age of our happiest year what do you think it is have a guess surprisingly the age when people are at their happiest is 82 that's right 82 i bet you didn't guess that so the idea that our best years are yet to come actually starts to hold true. So why do most of us have a

negative perception of ageing and retiring? Perhaps we're worried about our mental and physical capabilities that may be deteriorating in later life, and about things starting to go wrong. But do you know what percentage of people live life without the need for any care at all. 92% of people live life without needing care. And yet our perception is that later in life we're all going to end up in a care home staring vacantly into space as we dribble out the side of our mouths while someone changes our nappy and feeds us pureed fruit with a spoon. But I think that the real reason we don't look forward to getting older and or retirement is actually the language that we've learned to use when we talk about it.

so let's look again at the word retire if your child ran the long distance race at school today and when they get home you ask them how did you go and they say i had to retire i had to give up i couldn't go on anymore and we refer to retirement villages old people's homes they're not considered inspired places to be and how many times do we hear about parents being put in a home that's really negative language unfortunately many see older people as irrelevant and expensive if you google old person you get images of very sad looking people our wise elders are seen as sad and decrepit and it's a vision of our future selves in years to come the very people who have all the wisdom to give back are all seen as sad and this is how we

subconsciously see our own future. We think old and we think negative, and this needs to change. Looking at another culture, the word for retirement in Spain is jubilation. So let's start changing our language and our view of ageing and refer to it as the age of jubilation. Imagine thinking, when I hit the age of 65, I'm entering the age of jubilation, because that is what it will be if we make it so. The secret is holistic well-being. The secret is mental, physical, social well-being. The integration between self, health and wealth.

To live, live, live and then die quickly. For me, it's about rewirement, not retirement. You won't catch me in a rocking chair because I'll be rocking the house. I'm adopting the approach that Bob Buford talks about in his book Half Time, where he uses the sporting analogy of your life as a game of football or any sport divided into two halves. So let me share some of his words of wisdom. He challenges you to think beyond the narrow bounds of a satisfying and successful career to a meaningful and useful entire life.

Buford asserts that the old model of an arduous career followed by a relaxing or restricting retirement should be jettisoned, replaced by the idea that your second half can, and should, be more creative, more impactful, more meaningful, more adventurous, and filled with more learning and contribution than your first half. A successful first 40 to 50 years should be viewed as nothing more than a good start. When we reach half-time, when we know we have fewer days ahead than behind, when our mentors and teachers and mums and dads begin to die, the idea of just more career or more success doesn't answer the question, what's the point?

Have you written your own epitaph? Have you articulated a strategy for multiplying your contribution? Have you answered, how much is enough? Have you done seismic testing to discover where you can be best of service? In the preface to Halftime, author Jim Collins suggests two distinct approaches to ongoing self-renewal. The first lies in the idea of repotting ourselves into entirely new activities as we move from success to significance, changing our activities from career to contribution. Why not plan to learn and grow as much between ages 70 and 88 as between 0 and 18? Challenge yourself to think about repotting yourself every 10 to 15 years,

throwing yourself into challenges that extract hidden strengths. Buford then takes this further by challenging us to see that some of our most significant and meaningful contributions should actually come in the second half of our lives. Define the view that creativity wanes with age By repotting, you can recreate the sense of excitement and imagination experienced in your teens or twenties Again and again and again Repotting also has the wonderful side benefit of slowing down time Think about how vivid your experience was the first few weeks of moving to a new school

A new city, a new company or new country The very newness heightened your senses and deepened your memories. Compare that with how you experienced the 50th or 100th week when life had become routine. The second path to self-renewal lies in seeing your primary activity, the same activity that you pursued for your first half, as the primary means to renewal. For some, the best choice lies on the second path, choosing to renew with your chosen genre or field, much as an artist grows within his or her craft.

Beethoven didn't reach half-time and then give up music to renew. He stayed focused and created some of his most radical, path-breaking music. Would Beethoven have been of more use giving up music to find significance? I don't think so. Today, a growing number of people have come to the realisation that they enjoy their work, that they become better as they become older, that they are not ready to retire even if they have the means to do so. A large and growing number of people not only do much better financially than anybody in

history has ever done, they do infinitely better in terms of personal fulfilment. And yet, when they reach their late 30s to mid 40s, the work they know and love is just no longer challenging. They need new stimulus. us. They want to find the sphere in which they can serve their values by putting to work what they're good at, using the strengths, knowledge and experience that they've gained over time. This is the life story of growth from knowledge into wisdom. As Buford says, none of us knows when we'll die, but any one of us, if we wish, can select our own

epitaph. I've chosen mine. It is, I should confess, a somewhat haunting thing to think about your gravestone while you're still vitally alive. Yet there it is, a vivid image in my mind and heart, standing as both a glorious inspiration and an epic challenge to me. 100x, which means 100 times. It's how I wish to live. It's how I attempt to express my passions and my core commitments. It's how I envision my own legacy. I want to be a symbol of a higher yield both in life and in death. What about your epitaph? What have you been given? And what will you do with the rest of your life? I've come to the conclusion that the second half of our lives should be the best half. That it can be, in fact, a personal renaissance. During the first half of your life,

if you're like me, you probably didn't or don't have the time to think about how you would spend the rest of your life. You're probably rushing through uni, falling in love, getting married, embarking on your career, climbing upward, and acquiring a few things to help make the journey as comfortable as you can. You're playing a hard-fought first half. But sooner or later, you begin to wonder if this is really as good as it gets. Somehow, Keeping score doesn't offer the thrill it once did. And you may have taken some vicious hits. Most men and women don't make it to half-time without pain,

and I mean serious pain. Divorce, too much alcohol, not enough time for your kids, guilt, loneliness. Like many good players, you started the first half with good intentions but got blindsided along the way. And even if your pain was slight, It was smart enough to see that you can't play the second half as you did the first.

You just don't have the energy that you once had. Fresh out of school or uni you had no problem with working 14 hour days and working extra hours or on your days off or weekends. It was part of your first half game plan, something almost inevitable if you hoped to succeed. But now you're starting to yearn for something more than success. Then there's the reality of the game itself. The clock is running. What once looked like an eternity ahead of you is now within reach. And while you don't fear the end of the game,

you do want to make sure that you finish well, that you'd leave something behind that no one can take away from you. If the first half is your quest for success, the second half is a journey to significance. And it's important to remember that the game is won or lost in the second half, not the first. It's possible to make some mistakes in the first half and still have time to recover. But it's harder to do that in the second half.

In the second half, you should, at long last, know what you have to work with. And you know the playing field, the world that you live in. You've experienced enough victory to know how hard the game is most of the time, yet how easy it seems when the conditions are just right. You've experienced enough pain and disappointment to know that while losing a few rounds is certainly no fun, Loss is survivable, and sometimes uncovers the best that's in you. Some people never get to the second half, and a good many don't even know it exists. The prevailing view in our culture is that as you close out your 40th year or so, you

enter a period of ageing and decline. But to pair age and growth seems to be a contradiction in terms. This is a myth I refuse to believe, and I want to help you to shatter that as well. I don't know where you are in the game if you're in your 20s you've probably just received the opening kickoff and have an exciting half ahead of you much of what I'm talking about will seem way too far off to you but don't fool yourself as your first half will race by much faster than you think you may also be nearing the end of your first half you may be in your mid 30s to early 40s and something has been telling you that you can't keep playing as you have been. Or

you may even be in your second half, but have never really thought of it that way. Like a good forward, you just keep charging ahead. But you may need to call time out, head for the sidelines and take stock, for it's never too late to change your game plan. Regardless of where you are in your game of life, I invite you to discredit the view that the second half of your life will never measure up to the first. Instead of giving up and settling for life on its own terms, you're ready for new horizons and new challenges. You're ready to move from success to significance, daring to believe that what you ultimately leave behind will be more important than anything that you could have achieved in the first

half of your life. If you want your life to be comfortable and want to coast to the finish line, then just keep doing what you're doing. Keep binging on Netflix and scrolling through Facebook. But if you have a deep desire to make a difference, to learn and to grow right up until the day you die, then your life is only going to get better. Buford has employed the half-time analogy with tremendous effect, but there remains one huge difference between sport and life. In football, or in a marathon, or on a mountain climb, you know exactly when you've crossed the halfway mark. In life, you might think you've reached half-time, but in fact, you may actually be at the mile 25 of a 26-mile marathon. Or in the last two minutes of the fourth quarter,

or perhaps, if you're lucky, you're still only a third of the way up the mountain. We only get one life, and the urgency of getting on with what we are meant to do increases with every day your clock is ticking for me the shift from success to significance is about legacy about giving back helping you through this podcast and my books to learn and improve your life by avoiding many of the mistakes that i've made so now it's time to create your own definition of retirement to define it from your own perspective and your values it should center on living a life that's meaningful to you. To me, living your best life means squeezing every last drop of learning, experience, adventure, connection, fulfillment, and joy right out

of it until my heart stops beating. It also means that we're doing and investing in now and what we're doing there will continue to build to a glorious conclusion at the end of our life, not three quarters of the way through and then die slowly. So the key questions you need to start asking yourself are these. How do you live your best life both now and end until the day you die? How do you live life on your own terms now and into the future? Are you focusing on the right things to be able to retire the way that you want to? Are you adopting the right approaches to continue to live the way you want to live, filled with fulfilment, freedom and joy? How are you going to fund your ongoing lifestyle? And how are

you going to fund your future fund? Unfortunately, a lot of people are operating on defunct money myths that are misleading at best and ruinous at worst. Myths that appear to make sense at first glance, but have often passed their expiry date. And this is where today's guest Vince Scully comes to you to clear away the money myths. Vince is a veteran financial advisor, author, and financial wellness advocate, and he's the founder of LifeSherpa, the first online platform that helps you to make money and investing both accessible and affordable. He helps you to master the art of living the life you want with the money you have. Unfortunately, the world is full of myths around money, some of which may have had relevance

in the past or are based on only part truths, most sound credible but are actually dangerous to your wealth and your happiness. Some of these obvious myths include money doesn't buy happiness, rent money is dead money, two incomes are better than one, you need a lot of money to start investing, becoming a full-time investor or owning a business are the only ways to true financial freedom. And the biggest myth of all, cutting out your morning latte will make you rich. Now, these myths have prompted Vince to author his great book, The Latte Fallacy and Other Money Myths. It addresses the commonly held but incorrect view that giving up your morning coffee can make you rich. The premise of this approach is that a lot of little expenses

over time add up to very large sums of money. So all you have to do is cut out your morning latte and hey presto, you're wealthy, right? Wrong. This great book debunks all of these misleading myths and gives you the tools that will actually make a real difference in your life. Over the many years Vince has worked in finance, he's discovered that successfully navigating the world of money is not about having the best plan or choosing the best investment or even earning the most money. Neither is it about scrimping and saving. He's realised that the less time we spend planning how to get the most from our money, the more time we spend worrying about it. He's realised that what makes you comfortable with your money and allows you

to live the life you want with the money you have isn't about how much you earn or save or where you invest it. What makes a difference is truly understanding what you want and spending your money in a way that gets you closer to achieving it. It's as simple as that. It's about you getting clear on your true life goals and your values, what I call living by design, not default in my book, The Freedom Formula. And Vince's book, The Latte Fallacy and Other Money in This, helps you with all of this. The book provides you with some simple practical tools to get the most out of the money that you have. It helps you develop an understanding of what really matters to you and gives you an easy-to-follow eight-step plan

to help you achieve it. It doesn't harangue you about the things you spend your money on. It doesn't tell you to cut your morning coffee. But it gives you the skills to live a fulfilling life free of money stress, no matter how much or how little that you have. If you'd like to win an e-book copy of Vince's book, just email me at bushey at knowhowproperty.com.au that's bushy at knowhowproperty.com.au with the word get invested in the subject header and then tell us the one luxury that you refuse to give up and Vince will award a free book to the best entry.

Runners-up will also receive a free e-book copy of my award-winning book, Get Invested. And Vince has shared so much gold from his book and his unique life-shirper approach in our deep dive conversation that I've split it into two value-packed episodes. In today's first, he answers your burning questions and gives you clarity on how to set smarter goals,

the benefits of diversification, why asset allocation is really important. He paints out the eight steps to financial freedom and he concludes with his 10 commandments of money. So if you want to know how to live the life you want with the money you have, sit back and enjoy this very informative chat with Vince Scully. Welcome back, friend and fighters. Now, this week, we continue our series of conversations with fellow thought leaders who featured on Lacey Phillips' recent National Money Debate

Summit. And today, we've got the pleasure of spending time with a multi-skilled money guide, Vince Scully. He's a financial advisor and author and a financial wellness advocate who shares my passion for making money and investing accessible to everyone and customising it to everyone's personality, their values, their goals and their needs by adopting a holistic approach that embraces the broad spectrum of investment opportunities. So welcome and let's get invested, Vince. Thanks for having me, Bushy. Looking forward to the chat today.

Yeah, I really enjoyed listening to you during the money debates and I think you bring a really deep thinking edge to the whole topic. So I think we're going to have a lot of fun today. But, mate, for those who don't know you amongst the audience, can you give us a rundown on who you are, what you do, and why you do what you do? Yeah, well, it's 35 years of history or 58 years of history. Yeah, I guess my story is partly a story of the 80s in Ireland.

I grew up in a sort of a fairly comfortable middle-class existence in the 60s and 70s in Dublin. south dublin and i graduated from as an engineer in 1983 which for those of you who have been around for long enough will recognize that as being the depths of the early 80s depression yeah so there weren't a hell of a lot of jobs around um and i uh and being irish wasn't quite as trendy then as it is now. So I rocked up in the UK to turn up for my first day at work to be told that that job no longer existed.

So I had to quickly pedal fast and find another one. So I actually ended up at a management consulting firm in London, a company called BIS, which our Australian listeners will recognise It was the B.I. Shrapnel name. So Shrapnel was bought by B.I.S. And I quickly realized that actually I didn't really like this working business. So I headed back to business school where I did an MBA at Boston University. And this was a 1980s trend, engineer, MBA, finance.

That was the route to senior management in the 80s. So if you look at most of the CEOs in the late 80s, they all came from a technical or manufacturing background with an MBA. Yeah. And so I joined Mobile Oil in New York when I graduated and spent three years in the Middle East, Asia and Africa. um yeah a few weeks here a few weeks there and at the end of that i um arrived in australia in 1988 for three weeks and uh we had a we being mobile oil had a small bitumen plant in melbourne

yep where i um had to go do some work and that three weeks has turned into 30-odd years. So I'm now a well and truly indigenised Australian, apart from the one fact that I have never been able to eat Vegemite. Are you a Marmite man from the UK or just won't eat any of that stuff? The closest I've got is Bovril, which my mother used to mix with hot water to make a drink.

but I've never got to the spreading it on bread. So if knowing Don Bradman's batting average was part of becoming an Aussie citizen, I made that one. And it's easy to remember because it's the PO box for the ABC as well. 99.96 or something, is it? Four. 99.94, that's it. So the ABC's PO box is 9994 and I'm not sure whether that was deliberate

or not but that's how I remember it. What was the excitement of three weeks here and you're going, right, I love this place? What was it that you loved about the place? Well, it wasn't entirely a conscious decision. I actually went from here to New Zealand, which was supposed to be six weeks. And in the course of that exercise, I became part of this project team about the administration for the South Pacific. because Moolah ran the South Pacific out of Australia. Yeah.

So a place like the Cook Islands, Vanuatu, Numea, Fiji. And this project was about centralising administration and systems for it. Yeah. And I thought I was going to create a job for myself in New Zealand. So I said, well, actually, we really should do this in New Zealand and here's how we should do it. And they went, hmm, that's a really good idea, Vince. Why don't you go to Australia and do it?

um so i joined this three-year project in uh in melbourne yeah and um by the end of that mobile had moved from new york to fairfax virginia so my desk in new york didn't exist anymore and um i really didn't want to live in fairfax so fairfax is a suburb of washington dc so it's like it's like canberra without the ski fields and um i really didn't want to do that so i i stayed and i joined anderson consulting in sydney okay and from there to macquarie bank and from there to setting up my own business in 2003 yeah and um yeah so yeah family family later I'm now a parent to an adult son and pretty firmly settled in Sydney. Yeah, let's sort of jumping in a little bit of that background.

When you joined Macquarie, there were pretty heady days during the Macquarie days. Oh, yeah, 1995 was a great time to be at Macquarie. Yeah, very right at the cutting edge and doing some major things. the 2003 you decided to put up your own plaque what what drove that was it as a result yeah that wasn't entirely well so the timing of that wasn't entirely um of my choosing um but i had um imprudently bought a very large tranche of macquarie bank shares when i joined and that was before they listed. So they were $3.50 at that point

and I invested a year's pay or more in these unlisted shares that you probably couldn't sell if you actually wanted to. So don't try this at home, guys. But as it happens, they listed a couple of years later, took over BT. So $3 became $30 really quickly. and I'd always maintained that I could retire when they hit $100. Yeah. This was before it was called FIRE, Financial Independence Retire Early.

I just said, well, at $100, I can retire. In 2002, I think, Macquarie bought Sydney Airport. Yes. At the time, people thought it was a dumb deal. I wasn't involved in the transaction, But it was widely tipped to be a dumb deal, and Macquarie Pay, I can't remember the precise numbers, but something like $800 million more than the second bidder, and the total price was $2 billion or something like this. And the second bidder obviously judiciously leaked that. So it was widely held that these guys have lost the plot, and we ain't investing with them.

So equity just dried up in that period. So I was given the choice of saying, well, would you like to go to London or Seoul or how about you take your options and your shares and you go do something else? And at the time, the share price was in the 90s, I think. And I thought this is the opportunity to do what I've always wanted to do. And so – and I'd just turned 40. Yeah. and my son was a toddler. So it just seemed like all the ducks were lining up

and this was a decision that was meant to happen. Tell us about, you said that, made the comment there that you had the opportunity to do what you always wanted to do. Is that what you always wanted to do? Tell us about the thinking around that. Where did that come from? Yeah, I mean, I use that phrase And I would have used that phrase myself at the time.

I'm not sure what always wanted to do actually meant back then. And that was despite learning the lesson at 25 about what goal setting really means. And if you give me a couple of minutes, I can tell you what that conclusion was. Definitely. In 83, my final year, there was a whole bunch of us sat around the pavilion bar overlooking the cricket pitch at Trinity and we sort of set a goal to get to 25 grand by 25. Yeah.

So income of 25 by 25. Yeah. Now, part of that was that had a bit of a betting ring to it, But it was, you know, it passed all the tests of what the textbooks would say a goal should look like. You know, it was measurable, it was time-bound, it was a bit of a stretch, but not impossible. And it was specific.

Like, you know when you got to 25 by 25. And it was a bit of a stretch. I mean, my first job, I earned 6,900 pounds a year. So, £25,000 was a big jump from there. Yeah, yeah. And a fair few of us did actually achieve it. But I woke up, I happened to be in London, I woke up on my 25th birthday having achieved it.

Now, obviously, you know, we're talking double-digit inflation, we're talking about doing an MBA in the middle. So you possibly couldn't do that. But so I woke up on my 25th birthday and said, yeah, I've got that. Now what? What does it mean? And so I went into this complete funk for months going, well, what do I do now? What does it mean?

And so despite having learned that lesson, I still had a view, you know, what I said, I'd always maintained I could retire it when the share price got to 100. I didn't really have a feel for what that meant. And that probably explains why it didn't last very long. So within about three months, I'd embarked on creating what became the Caliva Group. and yeah I was probably working harder than I was ever working in by 2004

and that sort of reinforces that and I have this discussion with a lot of our members at LifeShare who bought into the trend, the fire movement, you know financial independence, retire early and, you know, many are setting goals. Yeah, I want to retire at 35 or 40, pick a number.

But unless you actually know what that really means, it's pretty hard to know why that's worth toasting the rest of your lifetime earnings. And that was the bit that I really hadn't focused. um and despite that lesson i tried it again after the gfc and i lasted a bit longer that time um and that then led me to the live show for business so i think that sort of comes back to um we talk about smart ergos um you know which is the original smart which is you know specific measurable, actionable, realistic, and time-bound.

Yeah. And then we add the ER, which we say stands for emotionally resonant. And that is, can you answer the question that I will, when I achieve this goal, I will be fill in the blank, I will do fill in the blank, and I will feel fill in the blank. and if you can't answer all of those um the goal becomes meaningless and that's what we see we see that young young women in particular who get engaged they are the most motivated to lose weight and save money and that may not be politically correct

but it's true and that's because there is a huge emotional significance of the day and they will do anything for that day to be the right day. So this whole emotional resonance sort of comes back to it. And, you know, despite having a lot of opportunities, I really didn't learn that lesson until the third time. Well, guys. And now I accept that, you know, really this is all about purpose. you know so if you yeah that and you know when we look at retirement planning particularly people

who are got the fire bug um yeah so well financial dependence is not a number that you can achieve by a day enough is you know enough money to sleep at night enough purpose to get up in the morning and enough joy to sustain you through the day and if you don't have all three um you've missed the point yeah it becomes quite high and unsustainable who's the atomic habits guy uh is it clear yep yeah so in his book i mean he he sort of goes to the opposite extreme and he says that actually it's not the goal that matters it's the habit and that if you've got a goal to get fit. What actually matters is the habits you form in getting

there rather than the getting there. Which I'm not sure I'd go to that extreme, but it is important that goals need to have that, you know, what's it going to look like when I get there? Yeah, and then what happens then? It's what happens from then that you've got to be really clear on. Yeah. One of the same degree.

And the habits are about who you become so that when you hit that point, you're actually the person that you want to be and you're doing what you want to do. But if you haven't thought about what you're doing then, then the goal, as you say, becomes a bit hollow. That's right. Intellectually, I knew this, but applying it to my own life did take a third go.

Well, we're blokes. We're blokes, Vince. and we're very good at the concrete stuff, but when it comes to looking at the mirror or looking at the emotional end, it's not something we're very good at generally. Well, I'm talking for myself. And a lot of that learning is embedded in what we do at Lifeship.

This is not an academic exercise. It's not a – success with money generally is not a mathematical problem. It's a mental problem. Exactly right. That's exactly right. I'd love to expand a little bit on that. Let's go there right now. We can come back to that.

But that was, I guess, the key to that, that that was the apparent failure. I mean, lots of people would like to have failures like that. So I'm not, you know, I've been immensely privileged to be able to do that, which is, you know, partly education, partly family background, partly time and place. The 80s were a hugely exciting time. They may have started in the depths of depression and ended with a share market crash, but the middle was a great ride.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, I'm so vintage, so I enjoyed that decade immensely. Tell me about during that career journey, what were you personally investing in and why as you moved through that? Yeah. I mean, I guess that the starting point was that sort of mid-'80s period, so the boom leading up to 87, so 85, 86, and most of 87, I was very highly leveraged in both the share market and in real estate. Yep. So the whole Docklands area of London was being developed at the time and they were sold off the plan on these in effect options

and whoever got left holding the option when it was completed had to settle. So these things got traded like confetti. So for a £10,000 or £20,000 deposit, you were trading £300,000 or £400,000 properties. It was great while it lasted. And in those days, you actually phoned – your stockbroker actually phoned you and said, yeah, this is what's looking good today. There was none of this sort of internet business.

So – and commissions were regulated in London. So, the price was the price until Big Bang in 1986, I think, when they deregulated share trading and the American banks came in and killed the long lunch. But I was, you know, geared to the gazoos and in 1987, and this was the lesson in, and that was mostly in managed funds, some direct shares. The UK privatisations were happening, you know, the demutualisations of the building societies, the utilities, the airports were all being sold off. Yeah, that's it. So it was just, it was what you talked about at dinner parties. Yeah. It's like real estate in Australia.

And I was imprudently investing. I didn't know it was imprudently, it was just the zeitgeist. And so in 1987, in October, whatever date it was, 13th, 14th, I happened to be in Vienna at the time. And because there was no internet, I was trying to work out what had happened. I could see the headlines on the German newspapers. Of course, I didn't speak German. And I was trying to work out, what does this headline mean?

It doesn't look very good. So I got called on a whole bunch of stuff. And the thing that saved me was that I had a fair bit of my portfolio invested in Japan because Japan was just booming back then and it didn't actually crash till two years later and the real estate market didn't really crash till 91. Yep. So I was in a world of pain but it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

So that lesson about, well, two lessons there. One, diversification is what matters. That is the one free lunch in town. And the second one is that if some is good, more isn't necessarily better. And, you know, I had the income to recover from it. So by 91, 92, I was sort of covered. Yeah. But they were tough times.

They were. People – Yeah. Let's touch on a couple of – really good statements. Some is good doesn't mean more is necessarily better. More is better. It's a very good expression. You talk about diversification, and I often hear people quote,

oh, Warren Buffett says that diversification is just a cover for ignorance because it means you don't know what you're doing. I think that's a fairly limited view. Oh, that is just complete nonsense and arrogance. And in finance, we call that spruiking your own book. And if you're investing billions, you can't afford to take that sort of puns. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And he's been rewarded for it. So, you know, if you go back a decade or more, you know, he had a remarkable track record. Hasn't looked so good since the GFC. No. And yet he's also quoted as saying that his wife should leave his legacy in index funds. So there seems to be a little bit of contradiction between those statements.

There is. There is. And that statement that he makes about, you know, Vanguard VTS, which gets so much press in the bloggers for the financial bloggers, all bang on about VTS, which is the US Broad Market Index. Yeah. So you get people like JL Collins going, this is the only fund you'll ever need. And that's just so much nonsense, even for a U.S. investor. I mean, we can talk about that later, but that whole Buffett index argument is – I mean, I sometimes think he just says these things to be controversial. There is no doubt that at the big end of the market that most fund managers, certainly most big fund managers, can't outperform the index consistently after-tax, after-fees.

Yeah. That's – but there are places for it and asset allocation matters far more. So, and that whole bet about, you know, the S&P outperforming all these hedge funds. Well, that's just a dumb argument because the whole point of a hedge fund is it's supposed to deliver different returns. Yeah. It's not supposed to deliver higher returns necessarily. It's designed to deliver different returns and that's why it's called a hedge fund. Exactly.

So to argue that the S&P 500, during the biggest bull market in history, outperformed funds that are intended to deliver stable different returns, it's just – it makes for great press. So I've got to admire his PR team. Yeah. But as a lesson in investing, it's just pure nonsense. Well, and the very name, hedge fund, you're hedging. That's why it's called a hedge fund. That's exactly what we're talking about, exactly. Now, that's really interesting.

Let's dive into then Life Sherpa because it's a very different model and most of the listeners will know what a Sherpa is. It's a guide who takes you up and down the mountain. Let's expand on that because it's quite a unique concept. So I'd love you to share the reason and the concept behind Life Sherpa and how people can tap into that and why they should. Yeah, I mean, the analogy of the Sherpa is quite important in this. And Sherpa, he's not just the guy in Napoleon carries your bag up the hill.

They are, you know, loyalty is an important personal trait. They are hard workers. But the key part of that is that they're there to share their knowledge of the mountains with you so that you can achieve your destination. Yeah, there's thousands of people who have climbed Mount Everest, but most people only know the name of one stripper that's done it. Yeah. And that's the guy who accompanied Edmund Hillary.

And so, yeah, it's that whole point about helping people achieve their own summits by sharing our experience and bearing the load. But we're not in the business of saying your goal should be this. We're not in the business of saying, you know, how many properties do you need to retire? So it's that whole loyal assistant helping you up the mountain to achieve your goal. And the concept or the fundamental point about that is and how that feeds into finances is that we have a whole industry that's driven around investment advice.

When people talk about financial planning, 90% of the time they mean investment advice. And for most Australians, that's not actually what they need. and that's why 80% of the population has never seen a financial planner because financial planners ain't selling what they need because less than 20% of households have $100,000 or more to invest outside super. But there is a vast bulk of the population going through three big life changes, what I call coupling, nesting, and parenting,

which create a huge demand or need for sound financial advice. Not investment advice, but financial advice. Yeah. Because at that sort of age, you've probably got the biggest debt you're ever going to have because you've just bought your first house. You probably have the biggest risk you're ever going to have because you've got most of your working life ahead of you

and you've got likely to have young kids and big debts. And yet we have 19,000 financial planners selling largely investment advice and saying, look, if you don't have $100,000, don't come knocking on my door. And that's because if you're charging a percentage of assets under management, you actually need some assets under management to charge a percentage of. Yeah, exactly. And so we – and this sort of came a bit out of my previous advice business. I had the Kaleva Wealth Business.

I – and I'll come back to the word wealth in a moment. That – the typical client in that business was 65 and had a million dollars. Yeah. And we did investment advice, heavy-duty investment advice. and um but the thing that actually got most of them excited wasn't the extra one two three percent return we were generating um i'll give you one example we had a a she was in her mid-70s she was and we looked after a small portion of her wealth and there were two things that she was obsessed about one that her younger boyfriend very much younger boyfriend um wasn't going to

get the money and two she wanted a medical card a health card this was a woman in perfect health he didn't spend a cent to the doctor but she paid her taxes and she wanted her health card and we moved mountains to get her health card you couldn't do you couldn't do that today now The rules have changed. Yeah. But that got her excited. She didn't really care that her return was X percent above the benchmark. Yeah.

Probably didn't even understand too much of what the benchmark was and why it was relevant. But that led me to believe this year this financial planning business actually really isn't about maths and money. It's about how do I make this money deliver what I want in my life? Live the life you want with the money you have is our touchstone. And most people can get far more from their money than they're getting with the right advice. and so I set out to build a model that would allow us to do that affordably

and in a way that was accessible. And it's really only been in the last five or six years that the technology has been there to do this. I first came up with the methodology back in 2004. Okay. Just after the GFC. So 2009 probably when I had a lot of time on my hands. But the technology wasn't there and I couldn't work out how do I deliver this affordably.

But in the decade since, technology has moved on. We all have smartphones in our hands. The technology to do things is so much cheaper and so much more accessible. And so in 2014, we applied for the licence and got the business together. So the key for the business, who's it best suited for? Of the listeners, who's going to be best served by what LifeSherp is going to do for them? Yeah. So our typical member is late 20s to early 40s.

They're going through that, those three changes. So they're usually, you know, young dual income couples or singles, professional singles. And the thing that triggers them to seek advice is one of those three events happening or turning 29. You know, the number of particularly women, professional women, who wake up on their 29th birthday and go, you know what, I've got a good job. How come I'm not getting ahead? And that concept of getting ahead is actually one of the big things. The ability to feel like you're getting ahead is hugely important in our mental well-being. and those four events are the things that trigger people

to look for what we do. And historically, it's not been around. People have turned to Uncle Harry at the barbecue or increasingly Facebook, Google and YouTube, none of which are a substitute for quality professional advice. Yeah. And, of course, it's really hard to find advice around town. I mean, there may be 19,000 financial planners,

but half of them work for banks, insurance companies or super funds. And, you know, it's pretty difficult to deliver fearless advice which might not involve your employer's products. that if you're in a super fund, no matter how diligent you are, you are predisposed to saying, well, actually, maybe you should put some more into super and ideally my super fund.

Yep. Yeah. No one expects to get a Holden car when they go into a Ford showroom. I'm going to have to stop using that since Holden doesn't exist anymore. But let's say a Toyota in a Ford showroom. But, you know, the best advice might actually be, well, you know,

you drive less than 5,000 kilometres a year. Maybe you should just get a go-get membership. And that's the missing piece in all advice. And as long as we've got vertically integrated businesses, that is businesses that seek to provide advice as well as manufacture product, whether they're insurance companies, super funds or banks, And it's just so difficult for the average Australian to access quality advice. Well, and it's a flawed model because there's a vested interest in it.

There isn't any independence. And what I love about what you're doing, I wouldn't mind you expanding on this a little bit because it is pretty rare in the industry. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're very much a membership model where clients will pay various levels of X number of dollars a month to get access to various levels of your programs.

And in doing that, that's where your income's coming from. And you very bravely, I think, but appropriately then, rebate the commissions from the various sources so that it's reinforcing that level of independence. Am I right in saying that? Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's right. I mean, one of the foundation guiding principles in all of putting this whole model together was that we didn't want to have a situation where the nature of our revenue – and, of course, this can't be free. There is a cost and delivery.

Of course, yeah. What matters is how that revenue turns up. And we didn't want a situation where what we got paid depended on what you bought or how much you bought so that we could quite comfortably say to somebody, you know, do you really want to spend $750,000 on that flat? Maybe $700,000 might be enough. and by doing so, we don't have a remuneration incentive to not give that advice. The membership model, you know, I think there's something fundamentally different between being a member of a community

and being a client of an advice practice. Yeah, totally, totally. And that membership provides you with access to a whole bunch of tools on the website and access to an advisor when you need it. Which, you know, there's a lot of things that we come across that you couldn't afford to invest the time and effort to find an advisor at the time. You know, I get a new job.

Should I salary sacrifice? Should I novate at least my car? My employer's got this new super fund. Should I take it? Should I pay off my HECS? Like all those sort of day-to-day questions, having someone in your corner that knows a bit about you on tap is a hugely valuable service. Totally.

And so I liken it more to roadside assistance rather than a gym membership. So with roadside assistance, you're actually grateful when you don't use it because it means you haven't had a breakdown. Whereas with a gym membership or Netflix, if you don't use it, you actually feel hard done by. So having someone in your corner for when you need them is hugely valuable. And this is especially true when it comes to insurance. The idea that when it comes to make a claim,

you have a professional sitting between you and the insurance company. because most people, when it comes to making a claim on trauma, life, TPD, income protection, are in no mood to argue the toss with an insurance company. And so having a professional in your corner on call is a hugely valuable service. Yeah, 100% it is. But I'm going to switch gears a little bit into the fantastic book

you've written because I think it's appropriate to the audience that we're talking on there and the latte fallacy and other money myths. I think it's, I mean, there's a seriousness but a tongue-in-cheekness that sort of creeps into that. Can you talk to us about why you wrote the book, who's it for and what the key messages are? Yeah. I mean, the thing that ultimately triggered me to put pen to paper was,

and I actually did start pen to paper, was to – that didn't last very long. But the thing that triggered that was there is just so much bad information that's been around forever. So your grandmother's advice, look after the pennies and the pounds, look after themselves. um look after the needs first and then focus on the wants a lot of that advice made a huge amount of sense when budgeting was a rationing problem so if you were in the depression in the

30s which most people's grandparents will have been the choice between putting food on the table and buying a new dress was pretty stark, right? Yep. Whereas today, budgeting is actually an allocation and optimisation problem. And when you treat it as a rationing problem, you jump straight through to what can I cut? Rather than asking the question is,

what value is this spending adding to my life? And they're fundamentally different questions. And the first one leads you through to the debt is evil, deprivation is good school of financial planning, which is typified by people like Dave Ramsey, Suze Orman. Yeah. And the number one tip in that school of funding is give up your morning coffee because actually if you don't spend $3.50 a day, that's $1,000 a year,

that's a house deposit over 30 years. And that's why millennials can't afford a house. and nothing could be further from the truth. But these memes are heavily ingrained in both the media and in our psyche and it takes a bit of a shock to understand the difference. and so with the book i set out to debunk a lot of these myths and um you know there's a whole bunch of them that you'll recognize you buy the biggest house you can afford might have made sense in the 70s and 80s when inflation was 17 percent

that makes so much sense now um give up your morning coffee um focus on the needs first never finance your car a lot of these myths had a solid basis when we lived in a cash society and it was a rationing problem so the book starts with 17 of these myths and the the coffee one being the most prevalent one and then i go well well thanks for telling me that Vince but what should I do instead and so the rest of the book goes through the eight steps to financial freedom yeah and those eight steps are it's not rocket science but you know the three foundation steps are spend less than you earn which is the most important message build an emergency station

and pay off your debts. Then we look at the three protective steps, which is how to prepare for the unexpected, which is around insurance and making your emergency stations in the right place. Sort your super. And for most 20, 30-somethings, there are four things you need to do there. Round it all up, put it in one place, make sure it's invested

in the right thing, and keep your hands off it for the next 20 years. And get your paperwork sorted, which is around wills, power of attorney, what supporting paperwork you need to keep filed so you can qualify for a home loan. Yeah. And then the two exciting, the growth, the two growth ones, which is buy and pay off your home and invest your surplus. And everything we do fits into that methodology because it focuses

the minds on getting it right in the right order. Yeah. And if you don't know where it fits, then the advice doesn't make sense. And that's what allows us to do individual pieces of advice. And one of the problems that I'd found in the advice industry was the document that your financial planner gives you, which documents the advice that he or she is giving you, is called a statement of advice. And I don't know how many of these you've seen, but I've seen thousands of them. Phone books, yep. and most of them are, you know, 50, 100 pages

and they try to deal with everything. So people get decision fatigue. Well, they actually get confused. A number of clients have come back to me and said, you suggested I go and see a financial planner and he's given me this phone book and I've got no idea what I'm supposed to be doing now. And we do a huge trade in giving people second opinions.

They say, look, I got this 100-page document from my bank. what do I do? And I go, well, you probably ignore 99 pages of it, and apart from the one with your name on the front. But seriously, that does allow us to give single-topic pieces of advice so we can deal with your insurance, deal with your super, deal with your home loan, deal with your budget, deal with paying off your credit cards.

But it's all done within a holistic framework. So the work that you do to pay off your credit cards, that fits in with the rest of the steps yeah and that's that's the key to it so that every piece of advice we do is a single topic yeah love it so if you come and say look i need to look at my super um then you'll get a piece of advice that deals with your super it takes everything else into account in coming to the conclusion but the decision you have to do make today is well what do i do with my super um and usually that involves a discussion around insurance because most people have insurance in their super and so we would usually do a separate

piece of advice about insurance so when they want to look back at it they go now which is the bit that says why am i doing this with my super and a lot of the work that we do is about making sure that people understand the why am I doing this, which means that they don't get distracted at the barbecue when someone says, you know, I've got the cheapest super fund in town and then they worry, well, why am I paying $10 a week more than that or whatever that number is. Yeah.

Because they actually understand what they're getting and why it matters for them. Yeah, it's perfect. You talk sort of to combat them this, you talk about the Ten Commandments of Money. Do you mind sharing what those are? Yeah. I mean, this started as a bit of a joke with my designers

when we were putting this thing together, that you know how every blog begins with X things to do Y. And so I said to Zoe, you know, if Moses was a blogger, we wouldn't have the Ten Commandments. We would have ten great tips to stay sin-free and happy. And so I said, well, and she said, well, you're very funny, Vince, but how about you actually summarise what are the ten key things in, I mean, the Ten Commandments is a literary masterpiece. Like it's, I don't know how many words it is, but it's like 150 words

and it encapsulates what living a good life looks like, almost regardless of what religion you follow. I mean, most of it is that's just being a nice person. Yeah. Yeah, don't cover your neighbor's ass, all those sort of things. Don't kill people, don't steal, don't lie. All pretty good basic stuff. So when it came to finance, number one was got to be spend less than you earn.

That is just fundamental to everything. And the second one is one that a lot of people struggle with because a lot of people will say, oh, if only I earned some more money. All I have to do is drive Uber on a Friday night and I can solve my budget problems. And commandment number two is you can never out-earn bad spending habits. And most personal trainers will tell you that you can't out-train a bad diet, and that's the same when it comes to money. So you can't out-earn bad spending habits.

The third one, which comes back to our point earlier about buy the biggest house you can afford, and that is just because the bank will lend it to you doesn't mean you can afford to pay it back. number four is and we've talked about this already it's not it's not about the numbers it's about how you feel number five is a budget like a diet will only feel restrictive if it isn't aligned with your values and that comes back to the latte fallacy yeah identify the need and then work out how to fill it yeah you can't get rich by cutting out your morning latte um there's no legal easy get rich scheme that actually works that's number seven

and number eight um i think we've touched on this you know information without motivation is useless number nine and this is particularly important um experience have a more lasting effect than things and number 10 interest-free ain't necessarily so so you know bit of wit bit of tongue-in-cheek but you know fundamental those 10 tips in you i know yeah 100 100 words or less encapsulates sort of everything you need to know well freedom fighters how good was that you get a summary of all this investment gold in the show notes, just email me on hello at khgroup.com.au. It's H-E-L-L-O at khgroup.com.au. Or check us out at www.bushymartin.com.au forward slash Get Invested. I look forward to joining you next

week for another episode of the Get Invested podcast. So thanks for listening. And as always, dream as if you live forever and live as if you die tomorrow. Thanks for watching!