Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: Part 2 - How Azeem Rahman built a DIY $3M+ property portfolio

Episode Date: October 18, 2024

Get the practical 'do's and don'ts' for for success in property investing, as we continue our interview with Azeem Rahman. As you learned in our previous episode, Azeem is a full-time employee who has put his income to work for his future, building his own $3 million plus property portfolio from scratch, starting at the age of 24 with no roadmap, mentorship or formal education.  In this episode, we roll up the sleeves with Az who reveals his practical insights and learnings, including distinguishing falsehoods from facts in property, building the right team while identifying the wolves in sheep's clothing, the importance of coaching and strategy, and much more. Enjoy! Connect with Azeem Rahman https://www.linkedin.com/in/azeem-rahman-realestatemuscles/ Subscribe to Property Hub for free now on your favourite podcast player. Take the next step - connect, engage and get more insights with the Property Hub community at linktr.ee/propertyhubau Book a personal solutions session with Bushy to go deeper on your specific property needs or challenges Continue the discussion with likeminded investors and experts on The Property Hub Collective Facebook group Get a copy of Bushy's book, Get Invested, for FREE, and find out what it takes for you to invest in living more, working less Get all Property Hub info here linktr.ee/propertyhubau About Get Invested, a Property Hub show Get Invested is the leading weekly podcast for Australians who want to learn how to unlock their full ‘self, health and wealth’ potential. Hosted by Bushy Martin, an award winning property investor, founder, author and media commentator who is recognised as one of Australia’s most trusted experts in property, investment and lifestyle, Get Invested reveals the secrets of the high performers who invest for success in every aspect of their lives and the world around them. Get Invested is part of the Property Hub podcast channel, your home for property investment insights, inspiration and stories from Australia’s top property experts, investors, leaders and analysts. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and YouTube to get every Get Invested episode each week for free, and also get full access to RealtyTalk, Australia’s top online property show for red hot property investing news and insights direct from property industry leaders and influencers. Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, show producer Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast networkDM Media.  For business enquiries, email [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

what does it actually mean to be a property advisor or to be a property strategist and I think it's essentially think of it someone as who is kind of like your specialist that you go to see who isn't there with you day to day, who doesn't speak to your GP, he's not or he or she is not related to you. They have no vested interest of whether or not you actually do decide to take on the recommendation that they give as well too. Welcome to Get Invested on the Property Hub podcast channel, the leading weekly show for Australians who want to learn how to unlock their full self, health and wealth potential. I'm your host, Bushy Martin, and each week I go deep with the best investors, experts, leaders and founders to find out what it takes

to break free from the grind, discover freedom and to live by design. Subscribe now and join me and get invested in the life that you really want. Let's get started. Hi, Friday Fighters. Are you a right-brain creative or a rational left-brainer? And do you eat a lot of carrots to improve your eyesight? And these truisms are about as sure as the Earth revolves around the Sun. Now, you may be surprised to know that none of these questions or statements that I've just made are actually true. They sound true or believable, but they're not.

they're actually a form of fake news they're falsehoods that actually sound true now let me explain the notion that you are either left brain or right brain dominant in personality and cognitive soul has actually never had a solid foundation or been proven in neuroscience and this labeling is actually no better than categorizing people according to their astrological sign similarly a widely held belief that carrots are good for your eyes as a myth that was created by the British World War II propaganda machine because they didn't want the Germans to know that they were actually using radars

to identify and shoot down German planes at night. So they ran a big campaign to convince the population and also the German high command that their pilots had excellent night vision because they ate tonnes of carrots. And while most of us believe that the Earth revolves around the sun, this is not accurately the case

because the Earth actually revolves around what's called its barycentre, which is the common centre of mass that planets and stars actually orbit around and since the mass of the Sun is astronomically heavier than the mass of the Earth the centre of mass or the Barry Centre lies near the centre of the Sun which is what the Earth actually revolves around but is not actually the centre of the Sun. Now these are just three interesting examples

where generally promoted falsehoods are believed to be true but pigeonholing things into using simplistic false binary labels can be extremely counterproductive. These falsehood myths have been built on the basis that the more often we hear something, the more likely we are to accept them as fact. Or putting it another way, if you say something often enough,

then people are bound to believe you. Just ask Donald Trump, because he's a shining exponent of this approach. But 68% of all statistics are made up. And I just made that up. Because it sounds believable, because i attached it to an odd defined data number so anytime or anyone in our life is accepted as understanding of the world is actually muddying things in terms of using simplistic and

incorrect notions because there's big potential potential mischief here i see this playing out increasingly in the world of property investment we are a growing number of self-professed property experts are cloaking truisms wrapped in post-justifying data to convince you to do their bidding. The constant talk of media price changes and trends in property markets is a really good example, as there's actually no such thing as a property market, given that every property in every street and every suburb and every state is different from every other of the 11 million properties around the country, and medium prices only capture the sale price of the middle home in a list of properties, ranked from highest sale price to lowest over a set period of time,

which means that if 71 houses were sold in a month, the sale price for 36th house would be the medium house price. And as the number and price of property sales varies tremendously over time, the medium price is actually very misleading and not representative when it comes to making decisions on what's actually happening where with property. Yet, the media and most property commentators use property market median prices to drive property decisions, which to me is actually extremely dangerous. And in recent times, I've seen a rapidly rising flood of instant overnight property experts emerge that rely on similar deceptive desktop data and social media marketing to drive sight unseen property purchases right around the country. So if you're being chased

around the internet and your social media platforms by high profile property experts that you keep seeing everywhere and have just popped up out of nowhere and they're using deluges of data along with their confident delivery to convince you to engage them and follow the gallable FOMO herd then take this as a big red flashing warning sign that you may be being led down the garden path to poor property performance. To be a sustainably successful investor you need to be a contrarian and swim against the tide of popular opinion so that you focus on the long-term underlying fundamentals, not the FOMO-driven short-term hotspot stuff, supported by a mass of self-justifying but essentially meaningless data points. And be very wary of one-stop-shop

property professionals, as you need to totally engage independent proven professionals in each and every part of your elite team, so that the healthy, robust differences of opinion between them, create checks and balances that allow you to consider all of the pros and cons so that you can then make better fully informed decisions that are truly in your best interest. It's why our know-how business has recently been forced to provide you with a unique John Wester property style approach where it's the properties and areas we reject that make sure that you get the best. As we don't find, suggest or buy properties but we sit on your side of the table and vet areas and validate properties being suggested by buyers agents by running independent second level

detailed due diligence to ensure that a property is truly the best fit for your specific strategy needs. So how do you separate the truth from the falsehoods in property and how do you distinguish property advisors that you can actually and really trust? Well it's pretty simple by talking to independent transparent and objective investors who've been there and done what you're looking to do and have no vested interest in sharing anything but the honest truth which is where our returning guest and active investor Azeem Rahman comes back in. Based on his coaching background Azeem understands firsthand the importance of having a good coach and seeking quality proven advice from those that have walked the path already and as you heard from his personal

property investment journey last week as his journey from humble beginnings to a seasoned investor is a testament to the power of his determination and grit along with his methodical scientific and strategic approach and his ability to surround himself with the right people at the right time so to further unpack the wealth of wisdom and learnings that he shares in his real estate muscles linkedin blogs welcome back and let's get invested again as thank you bush you thank you having me and uh let's let's get invested Absolutely. Now, as I mentioned last week, you've written some fantastic blogs on LinkedIn under the tag Real Estate Muscles. And the first of those that I'd like to dig into, because it's fairly appropriate what we're talking about today, is what are the sort of common mistakes that you're seeing hardworking Aussies making when it comes to property investment? i think there's um in my mind sort of the less common mistakes that i made so if it's okay i'll

probably share a little bit of both now but common ones that i see that are made first and foremost is when i think about property investing in my experience there are some really key stages that they flow through so the first stage is strategy the next stage is your suburb selection the third stage is location the fourth stage is property itself and then the fifth stage of course is the valuation and the offer that you place and across these key stages there is a plethora of activities and actions that need to be taken by yourself and your your team to be executed effectively so if i look at across that whole journey the common mistakes that are made for all those stages, Bushy. The first one is stage one, the strategy. The mistake there is that it's

completely missed. Most people that I've come across, both in fact, not just the common day, everyday real estate investors, but also those professionals in industry, they themselves don't have a strategy. And there are very few who could confidently say to me that we have a strategy that is also documented. So I think that's the first thing is completely missed and bypassed and they goes straight to figuring out which property to purchase after they know how much they can borrow. The second stage, which is the suburb selection and the location selection, those two combined, the common mistake I see that's made there by investors is they don't rely on data. There's a great amount of data that needs to be relied upon and researched and analyzed to understand

which are the right suburbs and then which are the right pockets within those suburbs as well too. and it's a combination of science and art, quantitative and qualitative data. So I think that whole data piece is completely missing. Well, they only have one side of the cube and they only have one dimensional view on it. So they're not looking at it multi-dimensional. So I think the data missing is there from that component.

And the fourth stage, which is the property selection, what I find that investors make a mistake is they don't have a clear criteria of what are the non-negotiables, both external factors and then the internal factors, because you need to ensure that there's appeal in the short term for your tenants, but then long-term appeal for owner-occupiers shouldn't when you decide to sell. So I think that criteria is not there. Investors do have an idea. I had an idea when I started too, but it's not a comprehensive view of what exactly am I looking for and what are the non-negotiables. And then the last word

that I find a common mistake is with the offer is the offer is just not on par with what truly is the value of the property. It's either a case of they are low-balling the offer and they're missing out on good opportunities or they're overpaying. And the reason why they're overpaying or they're under-offering and not getting the property is purely because they don't know how to value the property itself. So if I look at it completely from a journey start to finish, those are the common mistakes that i see that are made by investors a couple of them in particular that i find investors who already have purchased an investment property anywhere from say one to three investment properties a couple in particular that come to my mind that i know this is one is

they don't factor in uh repair and maintenance the reality is there is always going to be repair maintenance even to some degree even if it's a slightly even it's a newly built property there still will always be wear and tear something will always happen so you need to be able to having some money set aside for that and the second is trusting your property manager blindly as well too is a mistake that existing investors make and that's not to say that if your property manager is making mistakes that means that they're not competent it can just simply mean the case of that they're just human they make errors systems can come up with some situations that cause issues. But I think if you're coming with the mindset as a business owner and you could dedicate

a little bit of time to check all the documentation, to check the information, check the numbers are correct, it pays to do so. Because I've personally found even with the best property managers and agencies, sometimes mistakes are made and it's not their fault. Sometimes errors happen and glitches happen. But if you're taking the time to have a look at it, you're letting money on the table. So I think there is a few there that are made by existing investors, but across the whole journey, there are many common mistakes made by first-time investors. Yeah, that's a brilliant run-through in all aspects of the exercise. And I think you're right. It's a normal story. If someone thinks they've got free reign, we relate to that last example in relation to property

managers. I've often seen it. You've used the business analogy. You're running a business, so effectively a property manager is a staff member and in that business effectively, if you're not managing them, if you're not managing your managers, then psychologically they start to relax. So just knowing that there's that discipline there of regularly look at the statements every month,

see what's being charged for what, ask some questions. What it's doing is letting them know that you are on top of it, that you are keeping an eye on what they're doing and why they're doing it. And that in itself promotes better performance because they're aware that they're being watched. It's human nature.

If we think we've got free reign and no one's having a look at us and they're just accepting it, then we tend to relax. And often when we're busy, which most property managers are actually flat out, given the number of properties I need to manage, it's not uncommon to hope and say

some great sharings there. On the flip side of that, and you touched on a lot of this last week, but I'd love for you to sort of summarise for us one of the most valuable lessons that you've personally learnt as you've invested in property? Well, I would say the very first one that I learned

is the importance of surrounding yourself with the right people. The reality is you cannot execute this on your own. And again, it goes back to that analogy, Bushy, of running it like it's your own business. If you are running a business, no matter what scale it is, you cannot be running it on your own in order for it to be successful. You need to have your team there with you and all of them doing their parts and doing them really well

in order to achieve the long-term goals of your business, whatever that might be. And so the same thing applies with property investing. And I didn't give it enough attention and value that I should have. But as time went by, I realized that was a lesson learned is to spend the time to actually get the team together. And it's, again, another analogy of like when you're going out there to play in the World Cup,

how much time do you think these professional athletes and all their support and team in the back end spend the time to think about, okay, who are the players that need to be playing? Who needs to be rested? What their training needs to look like? How are we actually going to play against this particular team in the grand final? And how do we actually then win the actual World Cup and go ahead? So there is a lot of assembling and strategy and planning that needs to happen with all the different players before the actual players on the field go out and execute. So that's definitely one thing that I had learned and the second one as well too is and again it kind of talks to what

your introduction there about statistics is the rent that you're owning is only helping you to hold the property especially when you have a mortgage and that can really be something that I find and let your ego get in the way when you think of okay I've got x number of dollars that are coming through as gross rental income but the reality is number one not all that is hitting your bank account. And number two, majority of that is actually going to pay for all of the expenses that are there, particularly with a mortgage. So it's not until you actually have a debt-free is where the rent really becomes to play a more critical role, which is more the cash flow side of things later down the track. But for as long as you're holding the property, which in my opinion

has to be at least 15 to 20 years at a minimum for a long-term sustainable residential strategy, for that period of time with rent is just only helping you to hold the property and i really want people to let that message sink in because it can be a great statistic to have that this is my gross rental rental yield and this is how much it's coming through but that really is not that's just on paper that's not what the reality shows in your bank account so i think the more you can realize that and learn that earlier on the more you'll actually then shift your focus to the metrics that are more important to pay attention to, to set your portfolio for the right foundations for the long term. So they're a couple in particular that come to my mind.

Yeah, I love that. And you've touched on something that's near and dear to my heart, and that is the affordability piece. Because you're absolutely right, very few investors get right down to the nuts and bolts of how much is a property either putting in your pocket or taking you out of your pocket on each and every week in year 1, 3, 5, 10, 15 and beyond. And if you don't go in knowing that before you start, that's the very reason why over half of first-time investors bail within the first five years is because they haven't taken the time to work out what the true cost is. If they haven't structured it right, they haven't allowed for all those maintenance

and additional costs that they didn't think about, and suddenly $300 or $400 a week is going out of their pocket net and they're living on baked beans and dog food because they can't afford to enjoy life anymore, then you've painted yourself into a corner and you're likely to bail early, not enjoy the fruits and never do it again. So I think that affordability piece is absolutely critical

and a good independent property investment strategist will have software that will enable you to get really confident around exactly what that looks like without spending weeks trying to construct your own spreadsheet. So the opportunity is out there, but that affordability piece really needs to be paid attention to if you're serious about being a sustainable investor in that regard. So there's something else that I'd like to touch on. I guess this relates to what I mentioned in the introduction as, what's one property investment idea or approach that you hear experts in the property investment field say that you disagree with or you think it's off balance?

The one that comes immediately to my mind, Bushy, is experts out there who share with clients or share with people in general that negative gearing or positive gearing is a strategy. And that really is a bugbear of mine. And there are many other sort of supposedly strategies that are suggested out there to be able to deploy. But specifically, negatively positive strategy is definitely not a strategy. And I think that's something that I don't agree with. For a simple fact of this is that it's purely the end result or at a point in time of your property's performance that's essentially what it is it's the end outcome and you need to reverse engineer that to say well how well you have selected the property to begin

with is what's going to determine that result and where you've actually purchased it in the location the suburb aligned to your strategy which is the starting point is what then determines that result so people who don't have experience in explosion industry they can naturally think oh well, I'm deploying a negatively geared strategy or a positively geared strategy. And I hear it all the time, you are my best mate. But what I would encourage people to think about, and I'm a sucker for analogies with the gym, is if you were actually to go out and say,

my goal is that I want to lose 10 kilos and I want to lose weight. You don't go out there and say, my strategy was to lose 10 kilos. That's a result, right? what was the strategy what was the approach to achieve that so in a fitness context if that sounds funny to you to say oh my strategy is to lose 10 kilos then let's bring that back to the property arena it's also very silly when you say negatively geared or positively geared is it is is my strategy it's not so that is something i don't definitely agree with and a part of that also that I don't agree with is the locations and the areas by saying commercial or residential

is the strategy. That's not the strategy either. That is just purely a sub-market within the industry that you are deciding to focus on in order to execute the strategy at a point in time again. Because as you know, strategy is a point in time. You may review it again and realize, okay, now at this point in juncture, I'm going to pivot and look at a commercial sector or the residential sector. But that's essentially the location of where you're going to bring your strategy to life. And again, I use that analogy. If you were to say that I'm going to go to the local park versus going to the gym versus working out at home, that's not the strategy. That's just where you are going to exercise. That's not the strategy. So again, when I say that, it sounds

really funny and I know you're smiling because you think that he goes, yeah, absolutely. That make sense where i go to exercise is not the strategy and again in the property industry because it's because the common person doesn't have this understanding they naturally blindly believe these experts out there who share this information and might i add they share with such confidence and such conviction that it can be easy when you match that sort of high level of power social media confidence and conviction and you pair them up with somebody who's got no clue what's going on an unsuspecting typical mom and dad it is easy to make them confused and believe that yes these are strategies but these are definitely not strategies and i don't agree

with it and and i would encourage anyone who is listening if you are hearing these these things at least question it if you're hearing it from somebody tell you this is a strategy and if you are somebody who's actually educating people in this i would ask yourself to to question do you really have the best interest at heart for all the people if you're on the other end educating people about these these types of quote-unquote strategies yeah i'm rarely said as there's no question about it there's uh so much that gets talked about in the context of strategy that's really an outcome, a vehicle or a tactic, it's not a strategy at all. But there's a growing incidence, I feel, of so-called property experts baffling people with BS and using jargon that they

know the average punter's not going to understand because in a way what they're trying to convince people is, well, I know you don't, therefore you need me to make it happen for you. The one thing that I'm sure you do all the time and I encourage everyone to do is ask questions and keep asking questions until you understand. And if you're getting bollocks

and you're getting jargon and you're getting confusing language, just keep on keeping on. You're paying them if you're going to engage them. So you want to be crystal clear on exactly what it is they're doing and why they're doing it.

And if they can't dumb it down into language that's easy to understand, like the great analogies you're sharing with us in relation to exercise and working out, then you're talking to the wrong person. So I'd love that. Let's stay on that subject for a minute

because I guess the key bits that go with that for me relate to your thoughts on property advisors. So I'd love you to sort of share a little bit more of that. And then also talk to us about how investors can actually distinguish a property advisor that they can actually trust. Can you talk us through that? Yeah, sure. I think you've mentioned this before, Butcher,

but I think it's first important to understand what people should understand if you haven't engaged them on what does it actually mean to be a property advisor or to be a property strategist. And I think it's essentially think of it someone who is kind of like your specialist that you go to see who isn't there with you day to day who doesn't speak to your GP or he or she is not related to you. They have no vested interest of whether or not you actually do decide to take on the recommendation that they give as well too

and how and what you do with your health as well too. But they will provide you with the cold hard facts. They will be empathetic. They will be customizing the situation to you. They will analyze and look at all the information that you share with them and that'll be then to determine okay what's the root cause issue here what's the barrier how do we overcome the barrier and how do we what do we look like this moving forward so in the property arena the advisor is somebody who is just completely independent and has no work involved

whatsoever in the actual property purchase transaction so earlier on those stages i was talking about where you're looking at the right suburb the location the property and the offer and then the settlement and property management, they are not involved at all in that process. And that's exactly something that you need to be your eyes and your ears who's not involved. And when it comes to whether or not you can trust someone or not, I like to simplify things.

And I think back to a great book that I've read about the trusted advisor. And the trusted advisor concept talks about different elements of how you find someone to be trustworthy and you can trust them. And the key principles are they need to be credible, number one. Number two, they need to be reliable. Number three, they need to have a level of intimacy. And that needs to be on the basis at the bottom of self-orientation. So the book, of course, goes into much more detail,

and I'd encourage you to read it if you are an avid reader. But those are the four things that you need to be looking out for when you're having conversations with somebody. So you're not going to get this by looking at what's being shared with you on social media. You're not going to get a good sense of it on a website. You will get that sense while having a conversation and it may not take one conversation. It may take multiple conversations and that's completely fine.

Take your time. It's important to ensure that it's a right fit, both ends. But I think you need to be thinking about those things. There's someone who ticks all those boxes because if any one of those is missing, and that's been my experience as well too it doesn't it does not prove to be conducive for a long-term successful relationship with that individual so for example if that advisor is really credible is really has best intentions and heart for you really cares but they're just actually not reliable as an individual they don't actually adhere to the time that you guys have scheduled

to come together and have a conversation or they tell you that they're going to do something but they don't then it just completely blows it out of the water for you and your trust level for that person will naturally go down and similarly if it's the other way around if they have everything and they meet all the boxes but they're not credible they haven't spent enough time in the business or in the industry then again your natural trust level is going to be low so you need to find someone who's going to tick all those boxes and what I found in my short experience both pushing in life and in the industry as well too, is if you can find someone who ticks all those boxes, they're not cheap. And they're not cheap for a reason because for that reason, they tick

all those boxes. And you need to then think of yourself as well too. And I was having this conversation with someone the other day where they were asking, isn't it actually costing more money to get the assistance of an independent advisor? And I said, absolutely it is. But ask yourself the question, what is the cost of not getting that advice? And they literally just stood there and they thought about it and said, yep, that makes a lot of sense. And even when you quantify as well too and you do the numbers, if say hypothetically an advisor is going to charge you upfront a transparent fee of $4,000 and you go on later on to purchase a property for $500,000, if my maths is correct, that initial investment you made with your advisor

is less than 1% of the property purchase transaction, less than 1%. And that can be all the difference it makes to get you set up for success, which can then help you to then propel you longer term, depending on what your longer term plans are, how many properties you're planning to purchase, what else needs to happen in order for you to meet your goals and to execute that strategy. But that is actually going to help you to accelerate and fast track all the mistakes that common investors make, very thorough, ensure you've purchased an investment-grade property and you've fast-tracked yourself as well too,

which is kind of what I wish I had when I first started as well too. So I think those are the four key things that I strongly urge people to have a think about is the trusted advisor model and think of those things when you're speaking to that person. And the last thing I would mention as well is experience and professionalism both need to be there. You can't be dealing with a professional who's not experienced, and you can't have someone who's got experience, but they're not going to be professional.

Those both are very, very important, and I see that often in this space. In particular, I see a lot of people claim to be strategists and advisors, but they are missing three fundamental things. They're either not professional, they're not experienced, or they actually don't live by what it truly means to be an advisor, and they're actually settling properties, right? And it's all smoke and mirrors. So that's why I think that is really critical. So think long, think hard, but above all, and like I've said previously

in previous conversations with you, Bushy, as well, too, outside of all of this, what you hear and what you see, trust your gut as well, too, because at the end of the day, after you've had a conversation, you've had an understanding of what they can do for you, are they the right fit and whatnot, yes, you can see the client testimonials. Yes, you can see how many people they've served. Yes, you can see how long they've been in business for,

but always last but not least checking with your gut because often it's on it's on the mark for most of the time not always but majority of the time your gut is telling you the right thing so trust that and always come back to that as well too afterwards some absolute gold shared there as i think you know the the key takeaways uh for me amongst that gold uh make sure the advisor and particularly the strategist, is independent of the other service delivery. As you say, there's way too many, particularly advisors, but other players in the space

who market themselves as a property strategist, but the strategy is just a marketing conversation to get them to buy a property for you and charge a fee for it. So I think the strategy piece needs to be independent of all the other bits, and then if you've got someone independent of that process, they can also add some additional experience and expertise in parallel with you to actually validate and verify what other officials are suggesting in relation to areas in the property

so you've got those checks and balances in place that are helping to make that happen so we're absolute gold on that front as well and we've sort of touched on buyers agents a bit over the journey as i would love to get your buy-in in relation to whether you think investors should find and secure their own properties or or engage a buyer's agent and if if so when and why yeah absolutely i this is um this has always been an interesting conversation that i've had with with a range of people about this but um look uh as much as i believe that for the vast majority of people that you can go out there and do it yourself i still there is a part of me that i know logically there is a need for buyers agents i wouldn't go to as far an extent as that they're

not needed they certainly are but i think that their role and their service would be for the minority not the majority and it is unfortunately um the flip that the the new and upcoming and existing buyers agents do the the flood of marketing that they do is to the majority who in actual fact should be and can actually do it themselves if they actually get educated rather than actually focusing their energy on their marketing and their education towards the minority. Now, there's five key things that I personally have thought about because in the past I have also considered about engaging a buyer's agent and I never actually went through the process of doing so. But by virtue of considering that, speaking to buyer's agents

and also my own experience there are five key things that i think one should always ask themselves and think about first and foremost if they should get the services of a buyer's agent so the first one is your passion in real estate and investing and there's a number of questions that you need to ask yourself about your passion the second is time if you have time to towards it The third is your affordability. Can you afford to do so? The fourth is your risk tolerance in that regard as well too. And the fifth is the data mindset.

It's properties that finance and the numbers gain. And so you need to also be able to think and execute based on data and not purely on feelings. So those are the five factors that I would encourage anyone to think about. And if the vast majority to those key factors, if the answer is, actually, you know what? yes, I do have all these things, then great. You should be able to go off and do it yourself. On the basis, I would caveat that, on the basis so that you get yourself educated as well to do so.

Because if you have the passion, you have the time, you have a low risk tolerance, but you go off blindly to invest, you're still going to likely to be unsuccessful. So it's on the caveat that then the bridge there is to educate yourself before you do that. now if you do decide or if you have determined from those five factors that actually you know what i really am time poor i don't actually have the ability to to do this on my own i'm not interested i don't have a passion for it but i know logically that investing in property is

actually good for our future financial situation and so for all those reasons you decide to engage on then then obviously the million dollar question becomes is how do you know you're actually dealing with you know the right buyer's agent or not so i again think that there are a number of factors that you need to consider as well too in here and the key amongst all of this is you need to take your time if you are going to if you've already decided that you do need a buyer's agent you need to spend the time to shop around and speak to a number of them to get a good idea so the first thing is have a look at their tenure how long have they actually been in business for and actually been operating as a bias agent so that there is importance to that now the reality is uh it goes

for anything in life you know you don't need to be a high performer for x number of years in order to be doing well sometimes it can be a less period of time so i absolutely get the the practical side of it but there is something that needs to be said about tenure that you just cannot accelerate or fast track so you know a bias agent who's only been in the game for one year well what do they do in a situation where you're dealing with a client whose actual finance didn't go ahead? Now, what do you do in that situation? Do you offload it to another client that you're going to potentially seek to or do you go back to the sales agent and just let them have a conversation with other buyers agents that are out there? What if you actually were looking at the contract and

the contract was absolutely fine, but it turns out that there was something really critical missing and then you never had to deal with that before. What do you do? How do you address that situation. It's only through time where you allow time to do its course, where you as an active and ethical wise agent will know how to navigate and go through different experiences and different situations. It just simply can't be through one particular point in time. So 10 years is definitely important to look at. I would say minimum practice speaking, you want to be dealing with someone who's got at least five years of experience or more. The second thing is they need to a level of outside of the traditional legislated requirements to be a licensed agent,

I think it's important for them to be qualified as well as a PIPA member, which stands for property investment professionals of Australia. So I think that's an added additional qualification that if a buyer's agent has done, it's definitely a good sign. I wouldn't say it's a done deal that they're definitely somebody you should be engaging with but i personally think it's a it's a it's a good sign purely because it actually represents that this individual or this agency has taken the time to to further actually qualify themselves beyond what the mandatory or the basic requirements are from a legislative perspective i know also that in order the thing yeah so i just want to add in there as well sorry to interrupt the flow but uh i also think in the buyer's agent space

addition to PIPA, it's really important for a buyer's association to be a member of REBA. Why do I say that? And that's the Real Estate Buyers Association of Australia. They've got a really tough clarification and qualification process. They've got a very strict code of conduct that you've got to adhere to, to be a member of that group. And they're very careful about who they let inside the tent so in that bias agent space both the PIPA accreditation as well as the REBA accreditation I think are pretty fundamental steps to make sure you're at least starting to talk to someone who's got the right caliber but go on as yeah absolutely now that's that's a great point as well Bush again and I think again

as well too when you understand you know what these qualifications actually mean then you have a good appreciation for that. And then it helps you to really separate your average buyer's agents or your new buyer's agents from the really exceptional ones. So those two are important. There are a few more. The third one is personal success. And this is something I learned as time went by. It's one thing to, as a buyer's agent, yes, you should be a property investor yourself anyways, that's a given. But there are two types of buyer's agents. There are one, those buyer's agents who are on the journey themselves personally to get to the other side of financial freedom or their goals that they're trying to achieve. And then there are the second plan of

buyer's agents who are already on the other side of the fence. They have already achieved their goals. They have achieved financial success, whatever that looks like for them. And now they're helping others do the same. Now, there are a difference between the two right there. I would be encouraging people, if you have to deal with a buyer's agent, deal with the latter, right you don't want to be dealing with a buyer's agent who's on the journey themselves it goes back to the same principle about when you're seeking advice or seeking help who do you want to be seeking advice from from someone who's already achieved what you're after or someone who hasn't is on the journey i personally would go with someone who already has and just that on its

own but she personally i think completely separates of the vast majority of those versus those who already actually have achieved success so that's really important is don't look at the business success the clients that they've helped with and how much money they've made them save or how much equity they've built and all those wonderful things there's a difference between personal success and business success and you need to focus on personal success so that's definitely the third thing i would focus on and then the last two the fourth is strategy the reality is a strategy is not overnight and it takes a lot of thoughtful discussion and a lot of different independent people to help you to build a strategy and if your buyers agent is actually suggesting

to you that we will run a strategy session for you we'll develop a strategy then those are definitely the ones you don't want to be dealing with in fact a good buyers agent will know that a strategy is not part of their domain that that is in in fact itself a separate service the separate activity that needs to be done and a good buyers agent i'm sure you you've seen had this experience, Bushy, is the ones who are really good at what they do, there is a lot involved. There's a lot involved in the research. There's a lot to do in the sourcing. There's a lot to do in the analysis, in the groundwork, engaging with people, relationship building, negotiating. The amount of skillset you need to be an exceptional advisor agent is tremendous.

So you do not have the capacity, the bandwidth to then also be spending obvious amounts of time with the client initially to set them up for a strategy as well too. So if your buyer's agent is suggesting for you to do that, that they will do a strategy session for you, then they're not the ones you want to be dealing with. And the last thing is there should be no additional services or charges. What I found is typically buyer's agents who are new to the game and they're starting off, they often actually provide additional services and offerings purely because they don't have enough demand and clients coming through. So they have more offers available more different services um so that what that actually looks like to help people to really

you know be able to grasp what this means is you know they'll be offering to do just the suburb component research for you and charge you a small fee to do suburb research and then off you go and purchase it on your own or they'll be offering a self-paced online course about helping you how to become a property investor or they'll help you how to set up a salt man super fund just to name a few so there's a number of different things and tricks that they do here but the reality is you've got to ask yourself the question why is this buyer's agent offering so many different services and operating here as opposed to the core function which is critical to them so again like you're saying earlier just ask the question um there may have there may still be

ethical there may still be responsible and working well um but what's more important is for you to think about like it's your own business and just ask the questions why is this the case why are they throwing all these additional services and charges i personally find that the really good buyers agents they're very clear on their bread and butter what they focus on and they do not go beyond that as well too and that's why they have repeat clients coming back to them so those are the five so if i was just to summarize that because i know i went in detail because there is a lot of detail the areas look at the tenure look at the qualifications that they have look at their personal success uh look at their strategy and what they're offering in the strategy space

and whether or not they're having providing any additional services and charges as well absolutely brilliant summary as there's a couple of things there that uh i'd sort of like to draw attention to and that is the uh education piece you you spoke about Because I think, again, if someone has personally achieved their success and they're doing it because they want to, not because they have to, there's a very different experience you're going to have with them. And those people, good, and this is not just buyers agents, but property professionals generally, good property professionals,

if they're doing their job, they're educating you so that you don't need them down the track. I believe that if someone's serious about what they're doing and they're helping property investors to do it better, they're going to work themselves out of a job. Because if they're not, if they're keeping you dumb and they're using jargon and everything else to keep you at a distance so that you feel like you have to use them,

then that says a lot to me about their values. And I think the other thing, particularly with buyers' agents, that is a bit of a warning sign that we haven't touched on, and something that really annoys me is the number of buyer's agents who use the tag of we find you off-market properties. If you find a buyer's agent whose the predominant properties that they are finding are off-market, that's a massive red flashing sign for me because what that means is they are more focused on building relationships with selling agents so they can offload properties to you that are untested in the market quickly and easily that are good for

the sales agent and potentially good for the vendor, if a buyer's agent isn't out there actively negotiating in the open market for good quality properties where you can actually benchmark what the true value of that property is, that says a lot about the quality of the buyer's agent. So I guess I am a believer in buyer's agents for the right person at the right time, particularly early in the journey if an investor doesn't have time and they don't have the knowledge as long as they're associating with someone who's done it as you as you brilliantly said but has also taken the time to educate you on what they're doing and why they're doing it so that next time around you're way better positioned to know how the process works and what you need

to be doing when when then they're adding some real value to your your ongoing property journey so uh that absolutely brilliantly summed up there as uh i think that's just absolutely spot on Something just as an extension to that, because, you know, with the increased access to data and what AI is now doing in conjunction with having access to local independent property managers, do you think the combination of those two is ultimately going to replace the need to amortization? that's a very good question this that's certainly something that i have thought about myself and my hunch says to me that i think a couple of things will probably end up happening well number one is yes i think there's definitely going to be an impact for sure uh i think what will end up happening is it will definitely wipe out the ones who are definitely not in it for the long term who are unethical and not experienced as well too.

So I think they will be wiped out very quickly as time goes on. I think the ones who are going to be in there for the long term who not just purely in terms of their intention for their clients but just purely from a business point of view, the ones who can adopt to technology quicker, have a stronger business mindset and think for the longer term, they are the ones who will adapt and be able to adjust to it. Yes, to some degree, if you think about it even now,

a lot of the data that's available that buyers agents use essentially is a form of AI anyways. So it's really extracting a lot of the data from a number of different sources anyways. So if you think about it, AI is already in motion and to some degree, it's going to be about how prevalent and how much it accelerates moving forward. I definitely think there will come a time, I don't think it'll happen overnight, where eventually you could have some form of a virtual buyer's agent assistant where you can go in, put in all your bracelets of what exactly you're looking for, and it will be able to spit out to you where you should be looking for what specific areas to drill it down. And then you can go off and look for opportunities and properties in those

areas. But I think there'll always still be a need to vet that. 100%. There'll always be a need to vet that, which is why I think buyer's agents will still be needed is because technology and the data is when you're good as what's happening on the ground on the ground root so it's a great example of you know chat gbt you can use chat gbt and tell it what you want but it's missing substance it's missing emotion it's missing context it's missing you as an individual and what's important to you those things a machine or technology can't tell you so in the in the same sense of when you're looking to purchase property which is by far the most expensive thing that most Australians will ever purchase in their lifetime you definitely need to then marry that up

with yourself as an individual what your needs are and and and how that matches with it as well too and also what's happening on the ground I don't think that there'll be a silver bullet tool that be able to be able to extract everything from the macro from the Australian economy to the regional economy to the actual suburb all the way down to the local you know government and structure and things that are planned. There will not be a silver bullet here for that. I think a big chunk of it will be provided in the future, but there'll still be a need to do some manual human intervention or good quality research and vetting, which is where a buyer's agent or independent property advisor comes into the picture. So there'll definitely be a need.

But I also think, Bushy, even outside of AI, I think the reality is a lot of investors are, but the amount of information that's available, I think we will start to see an increase in investors who are becoming do-it-yourself as well too, just purely from becoming educated and also supporting their own self-education with AI. And I also think it'll be all parts of the other areas. So, you know, when we think about even cryptocurrency, blockchain, you know, contracts, the settlement period, all of the operational things that happen in the background of the transactions? How about the property management and the managers at the moment, how they carry out all their activities? I think a lot of the administrative operational processes,

a lot of that is also going to be streamlined and changed in time as well too. So I think it's going to be a game changer. It's going to be incredibly efficient for everybody involved, all the stakeholders, the landlords, the tenants, the property managers, and also from a selling and buying perspective as well too for the selling agent buyers agents and and the borrower and the seller spot on i think it's interesting i think with what i'm seeing with ai and technology generally uh we're moving from a uh imperfect market and you know again i'm cautious about using the word marketing property but in imperfect conditions in property where there's a fair bit of arbitrage because the knowledge tends to be siloed in the current setup but with the access to the

technology and the AI that's increasing the speed and the spread of the information that can be interrogated it's going to move towards a more perfect marketplace very similar to the shares and equities market and what that's going to mean is that I think to some degree the ability to read this sentiment plays in property because if we've got most of the people accessing the same information coming to the same decisions what that's going to tend to do as we're starting to see already with buyers agents driving and creating hot spots just by collating the same data or saying this is where you invest when they get in and they compete with themselves and then therefore artificially drive the prices up and and self-fulfill their own prophecy that

this area is a good place to buy i think we're going to see more of that so i think the real skill which is that which is that art piece is going to be able to read the sentiment and then get ahead of that sentiment ride the wave and then shift to take advantage of that using property as more a perfect asset than what i said to be so well i think it's it's it's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out they're talking about property conditions and you know i'm not pretending here or putting you on the the plate and expecting you to to give us a a clandestine forecast on where things are likely to happen. But I always like to talk to active investors rather than the professionals

to get a sense on what's your read on investment conditions in the medium term and where you think the opportunities are going to be in the property sphere. Look, I would say when I look at it in terms of the states, it's been such a long time it feels like it's been such a long time but for the last good three years there's been a lot of concentrated effort in the Perth market

a lot of people have been purchasing there and also been doing quite well as well too do I see that that's the area to continue to invest in in the medium term I would be cautious about that is probably the best way to put it I wouldn't say

you definitely should or shouldn't I think it really comes down to your individual situation and your strategy. I think that's the most important thing to anything. But generally speaking, I would say I'd be very cautious about buying there at this point in time is my caution for that market. Where I do see that, I think there will be opportunities both now in the midterm is definitely in Queensland. I see from what my own research tells me and from what I see as part of the conversations with experts that I speak to, I think Queensland still has a lot of good growth to go in there in certain regional areas.

So I definitely think Queensland is a good spot. And personally, just my personal, if I was to look between Queensland and Perth right now, I'd probably be looking at Queensland, if anything, just as my personal view and my risk tolerance. An interesting place where I think it would be interesting just to watch is Melbourne because, as we all know, Melbourne hasn't been performing that well. But we also know that's not going to be the case always. And Melbourne, very similar to Sydney, very resilient markets, very resilient markets. So, it'll be interesting to see how that

plays out. But I would encourage investors just to think about the long-term view here because within Melbourne, the land tax thresholds are very, very low compared to the other states. So, it's very likely you'll be purchasing something where you'll be paying a land tax from from year one very likely that'll be the case so if your risk tolerance allows you to to do that then it's something worth considering um because it's not a hot market at the moment it will definitely shift when it will anyone's guess but i would i would i would have a think about um melbourne as well so i wouldn't i wouldn't discard it completely but i think melbourne's one to just is to watch as well too so out of all the states they're the ones where i've got my eye at the

moving on, Perth, Queensland, and Melbourne. Yeah, well said. I agree with your sentiments. I think the needles move too much in WA. I think you're coming in at the end of the exercise now. If you were in there a couple of years ago, you would have done well and you'll do well for a little while yet. I think Queensland, you know, the three future growth trials

that I always have a look at as new infrastructure that's committed, it's industry diversity and growth and it's the support of strong and growing incomes which mean jobs now if you look at those three uh and you follow where those lead uh then southeast queensland and victoria well uh tick tick the boxes very well and the the other thing i think it's affecting melbourne is it's had a lot of bad press and that sentiment factor that i spoke about earlier as having a negative influence on it but if you did dive into the underlying fundamentals the population growth and the the supporting infrastructure growth that's happening in locations in around victoria while it mightn't be the flavor of the month now as a contrarian i

think it provides a lot of opportunity so we're lovely you're sharing those thoughts um uh sort of bring it all to head what are your key takeaways to being a successful property investor given the context of what we talked about last week and this week? I think the first thing you see is your mindset. I think that that definitely is a starting point. And the mindset you need to have is to run like it's your own business. And so some of the questions that I ask people now is, if you were to start your own business, would you go out there without thinking about what your strategy and your plan is would you go out without one would you go out there without actually having a team there to support you around this would you go out there without having the end in mind of what are the

goals you want to achieve from this business you know would you would you not have a think about the cash flow implications and run the numbers and if you're buying an existing business would you not be very thorough with the questions and the research you do as to why is this business owner selling selling their shop what is the reason what are all the documents i need and i make sure i have all the people around to support to actually have a look at that so if the answer to all of that all those rhetorical questions is actually i would be doing all those things then the same thing needs to apply in property investing it's the exact same thing it's no different different to that the only difference really is the amount of time and energy you give

it in an actual business you're doing it actively whereas obviously in the property arena it's a bit more passive and not as active as that space but the principles still apply but the only way you actually execute on that bushy because that's the startup here in the mindset the mindset needs to be there everything flows from that so i'd say definitely that's definitely one of the number one thing as a as a successful investor um and then what flows from that is a range of sort of micro micro trace that will just naturally flow as a result of that so for example you know your ability to plan will flow out of that because you're treating it like a business your ability to hold people accountable will flow out of that because it's of your mindset so there's some

there are a number of micro traits that i won't get into but it stems from from that separately to that understanding alone is patience you know property investing does is nothing that happens overnight even if your strategy and your approach is you know in a bit more a different approach where you're looking to do if you're flipping you're in the development space even then from what I have seen in my experience in that industry, it's still not overnight. Yes, it's a slightly, I'm sure a tight brain, but it's still not overnight. So regardless of what your specific strategy is in property investing, it doesn't matter whether it's commercial, whether it's residential, you're looking at the type of properties, what you're doing with the property

itself, how active or inactive you are, or hands off, hands off you are, you have to be patient. So I think that's certainly another key attribute that I think is important to have. And the third one I would say is resilience. A lot of things will happen that you don't expect to. Again, very similar to just like business. You don't know what's going to happen. Anything could happen. You might have a staff member who decides to leave.

You might have issues with the actual structure of the building itself where you're running your business. Your personal circumstances might change and you might say, this is not for me anymore. I don't know if I actually want to do this moving forward. You might be hit with interest rate rises that you weren't expecting. A lot of things can happen and that's okay. What's important is to accept and embrace that that's going to happen. And rather than to run away from it, is to actually lean into it and be resilient and

figure out a way to get around it. Because if there's a will, I found there is a way, even if you make mistakes, regardless of how costly those mistakes are um if you're in it for the long term there are there is always a solution i found so far in as an investor in property but you just got to hang in there tight and be resilient so i think those three are sort of the real sort of the yeah because i'm a visual person i think there's kind of the real the bulk at the top and what sits underneath them sort of the micro traits but they're really the really bulky ones that the big rocks the business mindset the patience and resilience for me,

they're the bulk ones that I think really set the successful from the unsuccessful apart. Perfectly summed up as spot on. I love the analogies that you've shared with us to make that real. It's really easy to comprehend exactly what you're explaining to us. So I love that. I'm now going to switch into the old second ambush round and give you the compulsory blindfold and cigarette as.

And the first question I'm going to ask is, what's your favourite quote and why? My favourite quote is, I believe it's by, no pun intended, don't quote me on this, I think it's Jerry Rice. I'm willing to do today what others won't so that tomorrow I can do what others can't. and why I like this is because this can be applied to any aspect of life and why I resonate with it because what I take away from that quote is I take away delayed gratification sacrifice and hard work

and short-term pain for long-term gain as opposed to the other way around so for me that quote when I hear it when I read it those are the words that I resonate with and and that's why you know I apply that to every part of my life, not just property investing. It's one of my favorite quotes. I've got it. I use the book, The Freedom Formula, as an excuse to put all my favorite quotes into the book, and that sits fair and square as well, and it really sums up what the essence of it's all about.

So I love that. Referring to the literary front, what's the top book that you'd recommend we read and why? well that's that's a very tough one to ask me because i'm a i'm an avid reader is that it's certainly that comes to my mind look i would um i would say if i had to look if i had to pick one uh which is very i would say the richest man in babylon um no doubt uh that's the first comes online it's just a really it's very classic it's timeless advice um over the centuries and it still resonates to this date so i think for someone who's starting out on their journey

uh top book definitely that way yeah save 10 of everything you earn and and invest it doesn't get much simpler than that if you stick to the knitting then uh and let time do its work happy days so the absolute timeless piece so slightly different tag now if i was to give you 50 million dollars in cold hard cash right here right now what would you invest it in or spend of love and why then so what i would do if i had that much amount of money i think firstly i wouldn't i wouldn't actually go off and buy anything significant to begin with i would actually um firstly i would make sure that all of our existing debts up are paid off the second thing i would do is to buy a new house for both my in-laws and for my parents yeah and the third

thing i would love this is definitely part of my sort of future state that i want to bring to life with my wife is i would love to spend some money of that to actually build a church or to build a chapel um as well too that's something that i really want to want to do at some point in my lifetime so i would love to do that and then actually i'd spend quite a bit of money as required to actually go and get financial advice on how to ironically spend the rest of the money and whilst we're mulling over how in that money and invest it i'd go away for a nice good six month holiday with my wife um just to relax so that when we do come back we can then think about how we're going to you know invest that money that we've got available so i think that just

the reason why that's the approach i would take is because self-gratification is so natural to me that even when when i would have that much amount of money i still would be cautious about spending it straight away well i absolutely love that uh uh last one of the the ambush series if you could wave a magic wand and change anything as what would you change about property investment if anything oh no no question bushy the lending policy easy i mean look i completely understand you know apra's uh you know intention behind it and and i completely get it but i think also that the I would find a way for the lending policy to change specifically so that it would be

incentivizing and rewarding the investors. Because the reality is investors are, even in a small degree, are assisting with the rental crisis that we have. The more investors that we have purchased, that's another additional rental property that's available on the market. So I think there needs to be more incentive from a lending perspective. Yes, the government incentivizes investors through a range of different ways, capital gains tax and negative giving and so forth in different ownership structures. But from a lending perspective, I think there needs to be a bit more incentive for existing landlords rather than sort of saying, okay, you've hit your borrowing capacity now. 100% agree. I mean, there's layer upon layer of risk protection with the banks now

to the point where it's got crazy. It's really silly. Now, actually, in that context and hand in hand with what you're suggesting. I think property investors are actually a solution to the housing crisis, not the problem that everyone keeps punning it as. If we adopt the approach that they did in the late 80s, early 90s and embraced investors as a solution and incentivized investors to actually continue to add to the stock, then the rental crisis would dissipate very quickly. So we love that. And final question is, if I ask you to get invested what does that mean to you to get invested means to me you've got to be on the field you've got to have skin in the game um you can't be on the sidelines and uh you know wish

for the game to play out a different way for the results to be a different way if you want the game to change if you want the scorecard to look different and you've got to get onto the field. Don't rely on others to be doing it. Get on the field yourself and do it yourself and have skin in the game and whatever that looks like. Sometimes it might be that you need to invest your own iron to be on the field. Sometimes it might be you need to invest money to get somebody else

to be on the field on your behalf. But either way, you need to invest in some shape or form, time or money or both to get what you're after so you can't be on the sidelines. All right. Look, for those of us like myself who've really resonated with what you've shared with us today, we'll have the links to you and particularly your Real Estate Muscles great blogs on LinkedIn in the show notes. So you can do that. Is there any other way that listeners can engage with you if they're keen to as? at this stage the best way is is linkedin so um feel free to reach out to me um you can connect

with me send me a message and if there is anything in particular that i could be of assistance of um by all means more than happy to see how i can assist and i think the the blessing for me is having that good mix of personal experience and tasting both failure and success but also the hands-on experience in the industry as well too and seeing the good bad and the ugly so if there's anything you'd like to get assistance on and would like to do the standing board just message me on linkedin happy to have a chat right uh really enjoyed the the discussions are so refreshing to talk to someone who's uh sharing it for the right reasons as and sharing it from the heart and from actual personal experience without any form of vested interest getting in the way

and conflicting the message so i really want to thank you again for taking the time to share all of this with us. Before we close, if anyone listening would like to discuss any of this further with other like-minded investors in a very safe, relaxed, and no pressure environment, feel free to join us on the Property Hub Collective Facebook group by clicking the link in the show notes. And if you'd like to dive a bit deeper into your specific property needs or challenges confidentially, feel free to book in with me for a personal solution session by clicking the link in the show notes. And I'll make sure that we dedicate a full undivided hour

so you can tap into the 40 years that I've been playing in the property sphere to help you solve and support your next property steps and that brings us to the end of an awesome couple of conversations as I've really enjoyed it this is going to be the start of many

so thanks again for getting invested and let's make sure we keep the conversation going Thank you Bushy, appreciate it Thanks for tuning in to Get Invested on the Property Hub podcast channel, your home for property investment insights and inspiration. Make sure you subscribe to Property Hub for free. Get your weekly dose of Get Investing Inspiration

along with every episode of Realty Talk, Australia's top online property show for red hot property investing news and insights direct from industry leaders and influencers. And finally, I'll see you next time.