Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Get Invested: Paul Migus on authentic, servant leadership

Episode Date: June 6, 2020

Paul Migus exemplifies the authentic, servant leader. He is humble and he always underplays his talent and achievements - a rare trait that I admire most in true leaders. So here’s a snapshot of his incredible leadership career. Paul’s a proud Canadian who started his career with the federal government as a clerk in the early 1970s, and enjoyed a meteoric international rise from archivist and researcher, through multiple Director General roles and up to the level of Assistant Deputy Minister for a number of departments in the Australian and Canadian Governments. Since retiring from the Government, Paul and his wife Eva have been leading and managing their own consulting business, LGT Executive Performance Inc., a management consultancy specialising in executive performance in the public sectors across international, federal, provincial and municipal government and not for profit sectors. His many and diverse areas of expertise includes strategic leadership advice, service transformation, strategic portfolio management, and senior executive change leadership. Honouring his family’s European heritage, he’s also been active in the Ukrainian Canadian community in Toronto and Ottawa for over 50 years, culminating in leadership roles in the Ukrainian National Youth Federation, and the Ukrainian National Federation of Canada. In recent times, Paul has been helping the Government of Ukraine introduce public administration reforms leading to association membership with the European Union. After Putin’s Russian invasion of the Ukraine, Paul was an advisor to the Ukraine Minister of Finance and the Minister of Economic Development and Trade where he met the Prime Minister and the President of Ukraine and led discussions with their senior advisors about reforms to their Public Service. After he and his wife both suffered and survived bouts of cancer, Paul is now winding down his professional and community activities and, as his wife likes to say, moving into ‘rewirement’ – a perfect time for him to reflect on his accumulated leadership expertise and his insights on where we are now and what type of leadership we need to individually and collectively adopt to survive and thrive in the days ahead.   During our great catch up we delve into all of the important leadership and lifestyle questions, including: What are the key leadership qualities and approaches you need to adopt? Who are the good and bad leaders in the world today? Why is Caring, Sharing and Daring an important leadership maxim? What’s the importance of truth to power and when is it appropriate? What’s the difference between men and women as leaders? What impact does life threatening conditions have on your current and future outlook? Enjoy the discussion with Paul Migus. Paul's book recommendation: Walt Disney: The Biography by Neal Gabler Get Invested is the podcast dedicated to time poor professionals who want to work less and live more. Join Bushy Martin, one of Australia’s top 10 property specialists, as he and his influential guests share know-how on the ways investing in property can unlock the life you always dreamed about and secure your financial future. Remember to subscribe on your favourite podcast player, and if you're enjoying the show please leave us a review. Find out more about Get Invested here https://bushymartin.com.au/get-invested-podcast/  Want to connect with Bushy? Get in touch here https://bushymartin.com.au/contact/  This show is produced by Apiro Media - http://apiropodcasts.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Leadership is very much about empathy, which is empathizing with what's really going on with the majority of people that are out in the community. How do you build trust and confidence so that people believe you and have confidence that what you're sharing with them is in their best interests? It's not just, you know, telling them good news stories or trying to, I guess, change the channel with another, you know, crisis or another headline, which obfuscates the real situation that they're facing. But how do you actually create positive change that impacts on people's lives? Welcome to the Get Invested Podcast, where we share great conversations with experts from all walks of life to uncover their secret know-how and where they invest their time, their skills, and their money, and the benefits that this has created. You see, the truth is that everyone invests every minute of every day. We're investing our time, our skills, our energy, and our money in something. Some of us are investing consciously, some unconsciously,

sometimes for good, sometimes for bad, sometimes for no impact. Get Invested will help you to start living by design, not by default. I'm going to help you to make it happen, not let it happen. You'll hear the top tips on how you can live with conscious intent so that you can live more, work less, and leave a living legacy by investing now. Listen to the show to discover the top tips on how to get started, make the most of your investment journey, and ultimately, to be living your dream, not someone else's. More episodes can be found on iTunes or at bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested.

Thanks for listening, and now, let's get invested. Hi, Freedom Fighters. Are you a leader? How do you define good leadership? How important do you think leadership is in navigating our radically uncertain times? And who do you consider to be good leaders or bad leaders and why? Do you believe leaders are born or made? What leadership are you currently taking and how are you leading yourself and others?

Or are you participating in our favourite national sport of doing nothing but criticising anyone who's in a leadership position? In my humble opinion, given the radically uncertain and rapid continuously changing times that we now live in, never before has good leadership been more important. The entire world is now responding to the permanent after-effects of the pandemic, and the quality of our individual and collective leadership will make or break the future of nations, cities, towns, communities, businesses and our families. We're all at a major fork in the road and we're already starting to see the impacts of good and bad leadership all over the world. Compare the looting and shooting macho tweet, I mean tweet approach to leadership in the US versus the nurturing unifying vision demonstrated in New Zealand. I'll let you be the judge on which is more effective.

And to me, leadership has always been absolutely critical. It's about opening doors to positive change, about showing the way, about interpreting past, current and future events and charting a course that engages, motivates and unifies action for the benefit of all. To me, leaders are shapers of meaning and leadership is about serving and supporting others. So what's a leader? For my money, a leader is a positive agent of change, someone who can see past our current situation with insight

and can communicate a clear vision of the future that connects, inspires and motivates others to change from where we are now and then guide us and support us to navigate the journey to collectively make it happen. Do you see yourself as a leader? Now, you don't have to be a four-star general, a politician or a CEO to be a leader. I believe that we're all leaders in our own way, whether it be with our family, our work, our sports, or our community and beyond. Leadership isn't about power or position.

Leadership is about who you are, how you think, and what you do. And every single one of us can make a difference in leading by example. Leadership is often portrayed as something complicated and that it's increasingly becoming more challenging in our digitally connected world resulting in a constant search for new leadership techniques and technologies But I believe we actually need to return to the distant past to uncover the fundamental principles of what great leadership has always been about Our situations may be new and are constantly changing

but the age-old principles of great leadership remain the same. And they're not complicated even though we seem to be in a desperate hurry to create new leadership languages and techniques. But in the end, it's always new names for the old things packaged in a different way. And while they're not always easy to implement they're simple to comprehend.

So let's start by revisiting these ancient fundamentals that have been summed up well in Peter Adamton's TED Talk on great leadership. In the 6th century BC, the Chinese philosopher Lao Tzu mused that a leader is best when people barely know he exists. When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they'll say, we did it ourselves. This is the art rather than the science of leadership at its best,

the humble art that conceals the art. And the great book, The Art of War, states that the general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom. And the Roman council Cicero in the 1st century BC

understood that a good leader can only deliver results through other people. He recognised the critical need to focus his attention on others if anything was going to change. And Jesus, in the first century, taught that if anyone is to be great amongst you, let him be your servant. He likened a leader to a shepherd caring for his flock. All of these ancient greats agreed that leadership wasn't about superiority. Superiority, I'll get it right the second time.

It was about service. But somewhere along the journey, this leadership privilege of service seems to have shifted to a focus on the leader. From empowerment to power, from care to control, from give to take, and from we to me. Like everything else, we seem to have shifted into the age of instant overnight celebrity leaders, where it's about how well known you are, not how good you are. And this gets in the way of the key leadership principle, that leadership is not about you. Eleanor Roosevelt put it like this,

A good leader can inspire people to have confidence in the leader. A great leader inspires people to have confidence in themselves. The best leaders don't create followers, they create more leaders. that recognise that the hero with his cape flying in to solve all the problems doesn't help others to grow. Good leadership is not about you as the individual hero. When we think everything's dependent upon us

and we're the only one who really knows or cares and the only one who gets it, whether it be at home, school, work or in our community, then we've forgotten the secret that it's not about you. I'm talking here about servant leadership, authentic leadership which isn't about a great person or a fixed set of characteristics or skills that you're born with it's about turning up with a self-awareness of who we really are it's not about trying to become someone else when we're a leader

but more about getting in touch with who we really are in all our unique brilliance let me reinforce that any one of us can be and is a leader and it starts with who we really are and what we stand for of being aware of what our strengths and weaknesses are and then honoring this and acting in an open transparent way that emphasizes our strengths and attracts others to fill our weaknesses so that the collective result is better for everyone the author john maxwell talks about five levels of leadership where people follow leaders firstly because they have to this is level one where you just do what the boss says which means that people give you their very minimum but not their best level two is where they follow you because of

how they feel about you as a person level three is where they follow you because of what you've achieved. Level four is where they follow you because of what you've done for them to help them grow. And finally, level five is leadership where people follow you because of who you are and what you represent. Now, each successive layer forms a deeper level of commitment. And as you move from one layer down to the next, it's all about choice, but not our choice. It's about others' choice. Again, it's not about you. The great quote, be the change you want to see in the world, emphasises that leading positive change starts with you and who you are and how you think and how you behave. Ultimately, if we want

to lead and inspire others, it's about who we are and what we care about. To reinforce this, our know-how company Credo, is that no one cares how much you know until they know how much you care. But in my early days in leadership roles in my 20s, I thought I knew it all. And it was either my way or the highway. If there were problems, I started by thinking that everyone else needed a change. I never thought the problem was me because I was the only one who got it. I was the only one who really understood the problem. I was the only one who really cared. It was everyone else who needed a change. How wrong could I be? Because in reality, I now realise that I knew just enough to be dangerous.

In reality, what was going on around me and the challenges I was facing was just a reflection of me because life and leadership are like that. When things inevitably go pear-shaped because they always do from time to time, it's easy to blame other people and other circumstances and point the finger elsewhere. But the true leader looks himself in the mirror and says, if I want anything to be different, it starts with me. Because the true leader recognizes that what's going on around them is a reflection of who they are. And this is the power of leading by example. We don't need to wait or expect others to change. We can start by cleaning up our own act first. But if we want others to live up to our expectations, then it starts with

who we are and what we stand for. And are we standing up for what we believe or are we just going through the motions, or worse, continuing the Aussie national sport of being armchair spectators and critics, and just sitting back and pointing the finger at others and expecting them to lead, and then criticising them without lifting a finger ourselves. If we're not in the arena doing it ourselves, then we've got no right to criticise those that are. Nelson Mandela said it best, I couldn't change others until I changed myself. And he went on to say that it's better to lead from behind and to put others in front, especially when you celebrate victory when things go well. But you take the front line when there's danger.

Then people will appreciate your leadership. Again, none of this is new. Ancient wisdom knew this millennia ago. Lao Tzu too also said that mastering others is strength. but mastering yourself is true power. And Cicero added that the enemy is within the gates. It's with our own luxury, our own folly, and our own criminality that we must contend.

And Jesus added, As you want others to do unto you, you need to do unto them. In other words, simply treat others the way you expect to be treated. these leadership principles have been around for a very long time we just need to rediscover them because old doesn't mean out of date it actually means time proven this focus on leadership recognizes that people don't come with a remote control it recognizes that if we want to bring about change in those around us it starts with our own thinking and our own behaviors it starts with who we are. Because the environment we create around us is a clear reflection of

our thinking and our behaviour. So it's time for us to revisit the key questions. What environment are you creating? And what leadership are you demonstrating? As we're all leading in one way or another, we're all creating the environment around us. So when it comes to leadership, in reality, there's no such thing as the perfect leader. But the next best thing are the leaders who really understand the two underlying principles. That great leadership starts with you, but great leadership is not about you. It's about serving others. As a result of these learnings in my study and practice of leadership across a diverse array of organisations and situations over the last 40 years, in our current know-how

property finance business, we've turned the traditional approach to leadership on its head. Now many continue to think leadership is about rank, power and privilege, where everyone serves them. But I firmly believe that true leadership is the willingness to place others' needs above my own. Threats from the ups and downs of the economy, the uncertainty of the market, the new technology that could render our business model obsolete overnight, the competition that's trying to kill or at the minimum stop our growth and steal our customers. I have no control over any of these forces. The only thing I can control are the conditions inside our business and our family.

That's where my leadership matters because that's where I set the tone. As a leader, I'm here to guide, nurture and protect our tribe. To create a circle of safety around our business family so that trust, cooperation and innovation all thrive. I act like a good parent who works tirelessly to give our children opportunities to build self-confidence, to create safe environments to try and fail, and to help and empower them to achieve more than they can imagine for themselves. I work for our team, not the other way around.

At KnowHow, my life and business partner Sonia and my combined leadership style focuses on creating and protecting our team's circle of safety. Like a pride of lions, I prioritise the wellbeing of our pride first and in return, our property finance cubs give everything they've got to protect and advance the wellbeing of one another, the business and our clients. And our daily practice of putting the wellbeing of others first

has had a compounding and reciprocal effect on our relationships with our team and the growth of our clients. When our know-how club pride know we serve them, they happily serve us. And when our team feels safe and secure, remarkable things happen. As leaders, we don't just lead by example. We secure the safety of our team, we guide them, nurture them, and no matter how tough the times may get, we've always got their back.

And our open leadership and mentoring approach revolves around the fact that we're in the relationship business founded on trust. Trust that stems from communications and service delivery that is fast, frequent, friendly and fun, underpinned by 100% personal accountability and zero excuses. And our vision and mission is to help hard-working, time-poor professionals to secure their family's future and achieve their lifestyle goals

by managing their money and getting invested so that they can live more and work less through clever property finance solutions. It's this why that's important. Our what, which is just property, strategy, home loans and investment finance, are just the means. And this all revolves around our goal values, the four key values of G for generosity,

O for openness, L for leadership by helping others to lead their way and D for diversity and celebrating our differences. These G-O-L-D gold values guide and underpin everything we do. So our unique upside-down leadership and mentoring principles drives an internal support and service-based approach that focuses totally on guiding, supporting and promoting the personal growth and development of our team.

For us, the heart of leadership is serving others first before yourself. But here's the problem. Most organisations and governments still operate from a hierarchical leadership structure. Leaders move up the ladder in an organisation and once there, see themselves above their team. Now despite its fashionable trending status as well as its undeniable success, most people don't equate leadership to service. Rather than epitomising humility, influence and meeting people where they're at, too many leaders think being a leader means power and authority. But here's the good news. Some of the top performing governments like Canada and New Zealand and global companies like UPS, Whole Foods, Starbucks and Ritz-Carlton are all led by self-described servant leaders.

Their leadership qualities are people-centric, modelling servant leadership behaviour and valuing service to others They're all humble, allowing their behaviour to communicate their values and their appreciation for their people And they're all vigilant in promoting the right attitude and belief systems that encourage others to succeed Where did I learn the most about this upside-down approach to leadership? from today's very special guest, Paul Migas. Of all the people I've worked for and with over the last 40 years, Paul is the leader who best exemplifies all of these authentic service leader qualities, and he's the leader I most admire and respect.

I had the pleasure of working closely with Paul for several years as part of his executive management team, in what turned out to be my toughest ever leadership challenge. Paul was seconded from Canada by the Commonwealth Government to lead the commercialisation and then privatisation sale of what was the 90-year-old Construction Services Department a full-service National Property Project Consulting Department handling all of the Government's major projects

and it traditionally focused only on quality but it never focused on time or cost delivery Now rebadged as Works Australia Paul removed the existing senior public sector management and replaced them with proven private sector executives including myself. We started by halving the number of employees and then ran the department profitably

for the first time in its history while motivating and leading teams of professionals who knew that their public sector job for life was about to end. I likened it to kick-starting a jumbo jet and rallying the troops in the trenches to follow me into the heavy fire of no man's land as our role was to work our own way out of a job.

It was by far the most challenging and demanding leadership role I've ever undertaken and success was all down to Paul's visionary and transformational leadership that inspired me and the leadership group to go above and beyond. The diamond heart that Paul gifted me and all the select members of his senior executive

on our very first day at Works Australia, exemplified his crystal clear visionary transparency fused with the passion that he inspired in all of us. It was this leadership experience in my early 30s that's been foundational to the rest of my career all thanks to Paul. And as you'll hear in today's enlightening chat Paul is extremely humble

and he always underplays his talent and his achievements – a rare trait that I admire most in true leaders. So let me open up your ears to the depth, breadth and heights of his incredible leadership career. Paul was a proud Canadian who started his career with the Federal Government as a clerk in the early 1970s and enjoyed a meteoric international rise from archivist and researcher through multiple director general roles up to the level of Assistant Deputy Minister for a number of departments in the Australian and Canadian governments.

Since retiring from the government, Paul and his wife Eva have been leading and managing their own consulting business, LGT Executive Performance Inc. A management consultancy specialising in executive performance in the public sectors across international, federal, provincial and municipal government and non-for-profit sectors. His many and diverse areas of expertise include strategic leadership advice, service transformation, strategic portfolio management and senior executive change leadership. Honouring his family's European heritage, he's also been active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community in Toronto and Ottawa for over 50 years now, culminating in leadership roles in the Ukrainian National Youth Federation and the Ukrainian National Federation of Canada. In recent times, Paul has been helping the government of Ukraine introduce public administration reforms, leading to association membership with the European Union. After Putin's Russian invasion of the Ukraine, Paul was an advisor to the Ukraine Minister of Finance and the Minister of Economic Development and Trade, where he met the Prime Minister and the President of Ukraine, and he led discussions with their senior advisors about reforms to their public service.

after he and his wife suffered and survived bouts of cancer paul is now winding down his professional and community activities and as his wife likes to say he's moving into rewirement a perfect time for him to reflect on his accumulated leadership expertise and his insights on where we are now and what type of leadership we need to individually and collectively adopt to survive and thrive in the days ahead. So during our great catch-up, we'll delve into all of your important leadership and lifestyle questions, including what are the key leadership qualities and approaches

that you need to adopt? Who are the good and the bad leaders in the world today? Why is caring, sharing and daring an important leadership maxim? What's the importance of truth to power? And when is it appropriate? What's the difference between men and women as leaders? And what impact do life-threatening conditions have on your current and your future outlook? So as you enjoy all of Paul's leadership wisdom on how to survive and thrive through our ongoing dynamic times,

I challenge you to step up and lead the way you expect of other leaders as your example is inspired by the humble words of Paul Meekes. Welcome back, Freedom Fighters. Now, in times of radical uncertainty and rapid change, you need transformational and visionary leadership in order to survive and thrive. In my 30 years of business experience, the best leader I've ever had the pleasure and the privilege to work with

is today's very special guest. Paul Migas has spent his life dedicated to leading, supporting and growing great people that's created awesome organizations. And I'm proud to call him both a mentor and a friend. So a massive big Aussie welcome and let's get invested, Paul. Hi, Bushy. It's great to hear your voice across 17,000 kilometers. Now you're enjoying life in that beautiful part of Canada

and it's late in the evening and we're sort of mid-morning here in Australia. Mate, I've been very excited about getting you on the podcast. I've had immense respect for you over many years now. But for those in the audience who don't know you, can I get you to start off by telling us who you are, what you do and why you do what you do? I'd love to, Bushy, and the feeling is very mutual. I enjoyed working with you back in the 1990s, I guess, the end of it, when we were together in Australia.

But my background is very humble in that my parents were poor immigrants that came from Ukraine to Canada. And I was blessed to have been born in Canada and worked my way, I guess, paid my way through school and found a way to join the public service. I was very fortunate in many respects because the opportunities that provided to me in the government of Canada, having done a master's degree at the University of Ottawa and a bachelor of arts degree in Toronto at York University, I started off in government at the lowest possible hiring level as a clerk you couldn't get any lower in the government of canada and that was only a term position but i said i'm going to do anything i possibly can to get a job because a i needed it

to pay the rent but also i was silly enough to have bought an engagement ring which bankrupted me in terms of all my funds for a love i had in toronto and ended up working my dog like a dog in the government, just filing records and prime minister's records, and gradually worked my way up. I retired out of government, you know, 30-odd years later as an assistant deputy minister, and in the process, had opportunities to work in the many departments and agencies, including four years in Australia, where I met you, where we transformed organizations from small ones to large ones. I left government running a portfolio of $50 billion.

That's a billion in the B of the Canadian pension system, old age security, Canada pension plan, disability insurance, et cetera, as well as then set up an organization called Service Canada from coast to coast to coast, which was the equivalent of what you in Australia call Centrelink, where I got the idea from, which I brought back to Canada. So I've had a very diverse career in government. I retired, or I guess I rewired, as my wife likes to say,

and set up my own consulting company, which I did for a decade and enjoyed advising government departments, deputy ministers, ministers in various countries on how to, in fact, provide better services more effectively, more efficiently, focused on the client and the citizens that deserve the help from government and those that pay the taxes by which the government functions. In a nutshell, I've been blessed.

Well, I don't think you've been blessed. You have to work hard enough to be blessed, Paul, and I don't know too many people who work harder than you do. So I've witnessed that firsthand. But, mate, I'd love you to unpack some of that journey because knowing the very humble person you are, you tend to underplay some of the tremendous challenges that you've taken on during your career and worked through that.

But where I'd like to sort of dig in to start with There's a little bit of your Ukraine heritage because, you know, the Eastern Europeans who break out – and I'm assuming it was probably during the 50s, back under the Russian oppression days – landed in different countries with very little in their back pocket other than a very strong work ethic and a real resilience. Can you talk us through a little bit of that with your history and how you think that Ukraine heritage has imprinted on you and helped you in your career so far? Sure. By all means. My granddad in 1928 had to flee that part of the world from persecution. Actually, it was the local sheriff of the village that he was in told him that if he didn't leave the country, But next morning, the militia would come and hang him. So he left his wife and my dad and all the kids, five of them, and he went to Canada.

And for the next 10 years, he worked in the mines and in the forests, trying to save enough money over 10 years to bring the family over, which he did in 1938. So my dad was three years old when he left, and he was, in fact, I think 15 or so when he met his dad again. And so I was fortunate enough that my mom and dad got together. He met her at a railway station after the Second World War was over. Love at first sight. And lo and behold, they got married, and I was the firstborn. And we lived in Toronto. We lived in Toronto in a home that had another four or five of my dad's family members with all their kids.

It's always chock-a-block. He bought his first house on his own and finally ended up helping the other family members buy homes as well. He fixed them up and rented them and then sold them on. So real estate has a lot of background in my family, but also the resilience of surviving in an environment where when my dad arrived, he was working as a Ukrainian in, I guess, a factory. like, for example, Sebring rubber-making tires in the lunchroom, they would smell his Ukrainian, you know, kovassan and say, my God, you're stinking bohunk, you're smelling up the whole room. And, of course, he came home back to his wife and said,

you know, I can't go take that lunch anymore. So she said, well, just take it and see, you know, offer it to some of them, which he did. And he had more friends the next day and the day after that. And she just kept bringing him more and more, you know, croissant sandwiches, sausages. And he became the, you know, the guy in the lunchroom that everybody could go to to get a helping hand.

And so, you know, he reached out to people. And he did that for his family members. He did that. He was just a decent, decent guy. Next to no education, got a bit of a public school degree in Canada. But he worked hard. He worked very hard. How did that imprint on you, do you think, that heritage?

Because it's, you know, the Eastern Europeans are generally a very tight family. How do you think that impacted on you and your development early on? Well, I think it provided me an opportunity to reflect on the various privileged parts of Canadian society, where you were in the social pecking order of life and being in Canada, being very, very lucky that if you worked really, really hard, if you knew what you wanted and you were prepared to put in the time and the effort, there were stepping stones that you could take to get ahead. And my dad was fully supportive of all of that.

I mean, I ended up working my way through university. I had a couple of jobs, but I think one of the harder jobs was coming in, working in a slaughterhouse, being on the kill floor, killing cows as they were butchered into pieces all along the line. And you did what you had to do. I mean, I couldn't eat meat for a month, but you ended up respecting the people that worked in that place for the rest of their lives because you knew if you worked harder

and smarter, you could get out and make something of yourself and I was so blessed to have that experience because it said you don't want to be here for the rest of your life. Yeah, it's a great insight at a fairly early age. Tell me, your interest in history, because I understand you did a Master's in history effectively, and then your transition into the public service. I'd like to explore that a little bit, but what was the interest

in history at that early age? Well, I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was interested in political politics, law, and also in economics. In the end, I wanted to do a thesis on Ukrainian-Canadian history, and there was a senator in Ottawa in the parliament there in the upper chamber who is also a professor of history in the University of Ottawa. And of the universities that I applied to, that was one that would

permit me to do a graduate thesis, a master's in the subject of Ukrainian-Canadian history, which I wanted to do because I was interested and involved in the Ukrainian Canadian youth organizations and and also very conscious of the fact of where my parents had come from and also the interest that I had at that time where Canada was struggling to define itself in terms of being a bicultural country or a multicultural country and those were the days where organizations like youth organizations student organizations of various ethnic backgrounds put a political case forward saying we all have to have a home in canada you just can't have it for the english and french only

we all should have equal rights in terms of having our identities identified recognized and provided the ability for us to share the wealth and the treasure that we all have in terms of where we all came from and it worked in that the government did adopt the policy the legislation and eventually constitutional change. And a lot of the youth organizations that I was involved in got me where I am in terms of understanding how politics work. And it was a very good building block in terms of social interaction and socio-political dynamics. Yeah, okay. That makes complete sense. But transition then into the public service as a clerk, was that a deliberate decision or was that something

that just sort of came along by opportunity? Talk to us about that. I think more of it was opportunity. As a researcher doing research, I needed to access the government records in the archives of Canada. As I mentioned, I had pretty well spent all my money, my rent money and my tuition money when I came to Ottawa at Christmas time. And so because I was spending long hours in the research centers at the archives, I decided that since I'm there anyway, I might as well talk to some of the folks that work there and say, look, I'm here.

I love what I do here. I love what you do here. There's got to be some way while I'm here I can give you a helping hand. And sure enough, they said, look, we've got a position that just opened up as a clerk. It's doing cataloging of government records. Would you be interested? I said, I sweep floors for you. Well, you went on to do far more than sweep the floors, Paul,

and I'd love you to share a little bit more of that because I think you've been way too humble in your earlier summary of your achievements in the public sector in particular because, I mean, you've reached the heady heights of, you know, Assistant Deputy Minister for Canada and that's not something that many people have the privilege to do. Talk to us about, obviously someone recognised your leadership capability

and your skills. Can you talk to us about that journey? Yeah, I was, I think in many cases, able to keep my eyes open in terms of where opportunities were there and sort of listening to the people that I worked for to see if there were different ways that I could help. I wasn't married to a job description or a nine-to-five, you know, time frame. I was very curious to see what I could learn and who wanted my assistance.

There were moments when I joined from archives, I went over to work with that background of multiculturalism into the Secretary of State's department, which had to do with cultural diversity, multiculturalism. And one day I was writing a speech for a cabinet minister. And, again, I'm just a very junior, lonely person. And I wrote the speech, got some feedback. And so he said, well, why don't you come with me on one of my speaking engagements.

You can hear how I talk, and you can write even better speeches for me. And so I said, sure. Again, I'm still a civil servant. Here's a politician, a minister of the cabinet saying, would you come? And so I talked to my bosses. They said, he's the political boss. If he wants you, you know, we'll support you going. So I did.

And after he had done a speech over a coffee, he said he liked it so much, why don't I just leave a batch and stuff in the government and work for his office for a while. Opportunity. So I did. I went off on leave from the public service, went political for a year and got my feet wet in politics. Great opportunity.

Awesome opportunity. And talk to us a bit about that because that's not something that a lot of people immerse themselves in and it can be that little bit of political exposure I've had in my own history here in Australia. There's some pretty interesting shenanigans go on at that level and some pretty interesting egos that play out in that. How did you find that environment? Can you repeat the question?

I couldn't hear all that. Yeah. Australian? Yeah, so talk to us about that experience you had in that political environment, because it can be a very cut-and-thrust type of environment. Oh, definitely. Yes, it is indeed.

It was one where you ended up having to learn very, very quickly who uh who your friends were you needed to realize where the where the power lay you needed to understand what your uh minister could or couldn't do and who he was accountable to and at the same time you want to build the bridges with the uh the people in the public service who were had to remain politically neutral and so your your political antenna are up your skills in terms of social skills in terms of understanding who your client is who are the stakeholders how do they all interact and uh it worked there reasonably well i i enjoyed that stay but the government changed and and i was fortunate enough when the government fell that to be able having took a

leave of absence from the public service to come back into the public service and came into the the treasury board which is the equivalent of your department of finance in australia and uh got placed uh on a file that dealt with government real estate now i was no expert in government real estate other than that by that time i owned a house and uh and uh but they needed the person to fill in the hole very quickly and they asked would i do it i said absolutely i will learn and i put in 20 hour days for the first three or four months learning everything i could about every government department that had government real estate across the country from coast to coast to coast.

And what my job was is to analyze documents going to the Minister of Finance asking for money on projects and whether they were a good financial investment or not. And my advice was then discussed by cabinet ministers and they made the decision. Fund them or don't fund them. It's a pretty pivotal role, actually, in you're really making decisions on some, and we're talking major projects here. Oh, yeah.

We're talking about everything from bridges and dams and dry docks to parliament buildings and the skyscraper office buildings, whether you buy them, build them, lease purchase them. All of the above scenarios came into play. A lot of interesting politics between how government really works, the role of the private sector in terms of influencing government and the role of the public service to try to provide fearless advice to ministers, but at least advice that they could use. yeah it's a probably the listeners may not appreciate appreciate just how delicate those sorts of roles are where you're dancing a tightrope between private public between political parties a very sensitive and potentially treacherous environment to operate within do you think you're you mentioned that you know you just dived in and and worked 20 hours a day to bring yourself up to speed is that a trait that ability just to say right i don't know it now

but i'm going to know everything i can about it and then just work hard to accumulate that knowledge is do you think that's been one of the major things that's contributed to your massive success in your career paul i think there's a certain philosophy that i i i brought with me when i joined government the it was that if another human being can do it i'm a human being i can do it so the concept that can't do is not in the vocabulary it's a question of how to and and there's many ways of learning how to do that or finding people that will help you to do that and that's part of it realizing that you can't do everything on your own and you start building a network of people that have the expertise and experience to be able to teach

and mentor you and I've had some great mentors in my life and by the same token I've had the privilege of mentoring a lot of smart young people into careers that they're now deputy ministers at this point in time in the government. Yeah let's talk about mentors because I'd see them as absolutely instrumental and I would count you in the very select few that was an awesome mentor, Thomas, to myself. Who were your greatest mentors that you've looked up to through your career, Paul? Well, I was lucky that I think one of the first that I recognized was when I was working in the Department of Finance and Treasury in Canada. One of them who had provided me the skills and the opportunities to work in different positions, they had suggested and noted that,

you know that Canada has an interchange program with the Australian government. And the question was, would you be interested in going over there? And, of course, it's very hard to say no. But in the end, that level of commitment in terms of looking at all the players and saying, we think you have an ability. If you went out and learned a little more, you would be able to bring some of that back home to Canada. So certainly people at the Treasury, other people in terms of other organizations that were in Canada

that when I was in Australia and ready to come back, certainly were instrumental. In my four years in Australia, there were a number of people that I had a great time and respect for. John Mackay, who worked as a Deputy Secretary in the Government of Australia in the whole area of departmental administrative services, which handled all of the government real estate when it went through all of its downsizing, outsourcing, divesting. He was just the first class of a guy, a real Aussie. He's actually written a book about himself, and it's hilarious.

And he's just, you know, exactly what I've described in terms of coming up out of the outback and working his way through the entire, from the bottom to the top, and he's just a super guy. Richard Williams, who's out in Brisbane nowadays, a super real estate smart guy, and certainly yourself. I mean, I learned a lot from you when we were setting up Works Australia and what you did in Australia.

Looking forward to catching up with you on some of those days as well. I think you've been way too kind in terms of my influence in that regard, Paul, but very privileged to be part of your team that helped to commercialise and then privatise that department at that very interesting time politically as we work our way through. Tell me, given the enormity of your leadership career across the public sector and non-profits and the ongoing work that you do with the Ukrainian government in conjunction with the Canadian government, what do you believe are the key qualities that have contributed to your fantastic leadership skills?

That's a very tough question. And I think I start by saying that my ability to look at other individuals from the point of view of where are they in their lives, what would they like to achieve, looking at the potential that they have and reaching out to them to be able to find ways and means to bring that out uh listening to them um not being easy on them from the point of view i've never molly coddled anybody uh work is very serious but i i do respect a individual initiative i respect hard work i i respect truth to power but you've got to you've got to earn uh the respect that doesn't come on the plate.

And I, for one, have never suffered fools gladly, and that's caused me grief. Not everybody doesn't like truth to power or doesn't like truth, period, if they think they're doing a super job and they're really screwing up. You've got to know. You've got to tell them.

So it's been both ways. You know, I tell it as I see it, and I expect that from my superiors to do the same for me, and they have. I mean, I've had people that have admired me and I've had people who hated my guts. And that's good to know too, because at least you know where you're standing

and you know when it's time to move on. Totally agree. And one of the things I respect about you personally and your leadership was that ability to have very robust discussions. And I remember times when you and I on a national conference had some very robust discussions, Paul.

And I walked away with even greater respect because you're happy to say it to me, not to someone else. And one of the biggest concerns I have a lot about leadership in all forms these days is the lack of robust honesty that goes with it. There's a lot of people that will tell everyone else but don't direct it to the person that's affected. So, yeah, no, I think that's very admirable in that regard. And I guess what I'd like to do is bridge that into a bit of a chat

around about your view of leadership in the world today because, let's face it, on a global scale, we've just come through, coming through the pandemic and the massive radical uncertainty and rapid change that that's creating has created quite a unique environment in that capacity. What are your thoughts on the leadership qualities that are going to be most needed at this time

to help people to, one, survive, but go on to thrive. Well, you're right. We've had glaring examples given today's technology with instant information from coast to coast right around the world in real time. We've seen examples of, I think, fairly great leadership, and we've also seen examples of, from my perspective anyway,

a leadership which is absolutely shameful. And, you know, without going too far out on the limb here, without saying which, you know, political party I support, the reality is that down south of us, it's an embarrassment in terms of the leadership during this pandemic crisis when the USA has skyrocketed to the most deaths And you've got a leader who basically, you know, asks people whether or not it's good to drink bleach or disinfectant. So it's shocking.

On the other hand, you've got some great examples. Closer to your home, you've got, you know, New Zealand's female prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, who's truly articulate. She's clear in her approach. And so I think that leadership is very much about empathy, which is empathizing with what's really going on with the majority of people that are out in the community. How do you build trust and confidence so that people believe you and have confidence that what you're sharing with them is in their best interests?

It's not just, you know, telling them good news stories or trying to, I guess, change the channel with another, you know, crisis or another headline which obfuscates the real situation that they're facing. But how do you actually create positive change that impacts on people's lives? And that's what government can do. And I guess to a large extent, we're talking about real meaningful changes. And, you know, that's happening in New Zealand. I know it's happening in Canada. Like New Zealand, we're really lucky with our Canadian Prime Minister, the young Justin Trudeau. He's well briefed.

He's articulate. He leads substantial social change. Almost every day there's another announcement in terms of how this government is going to bend over backwards, using the technology it has to try to help the most vulnerable people, the most vulnerable organisations in Canada. And that's a very, very different approach than saying you can go out and shoot the protesters if the protests continue in the States. I just shake my head.

I think the world's shaking its head, Paul. I'm almost in disbelief. It almost feels like a comedy at times. It's leadership by tweet. And I just, I think most of the world is really scratching their head as to how it came about and how it continues to be. Yeah, it's really interesting that even Twitter is taking on the president by identifying that some of the statements that he makes

need to be fact-checked, and so he's going after Twitter now. If you don't agree with me, I'll sue you. That seems to be the attitude. I'm going to try to shut you down. Good grief. You touched on a subject that I think is very relevant as well because we now live in a leadership landscape across the globe where we've got quite dramatic differences

between different leadership styles and one of the things I note with interest and I'd love your commentary on this is the quite clear difference between the female approach to leadership and the empathy that is embraced in that nurturing quality that becomes natural to them and the macho sort of on steroids approach that we're seeing in quite a few of the male leaders around the globe. What's your thoughts on all of that? Well, I have to say that from my perspective, I have truly been blessed that I have in my life hired a substantial number of women executives.

In fact, I remember once heading up a public works organization where I had 15 executives reporting to me. all of them were male all of them were handed to me and within a year and a half the majority of them were women hired in a in a public process looking for the best candidates and it changed everything for me i think they bring different skill sets in terms of empathy and compassion i think they're very very articulate so they look at like differently than a lot of the uh the macho I'll call it chest thumpers all about me I'm never wrong and

I've been very fortunate that many of them have you know done extremely extremely well as the world opened up from 30 years ago and as I say today many of them that I have mentored are now deputy ministers in Canada

and in other parts of the world as well they have a different point of view and you know And I dare say that's one of the beauties about Canada in that not only supporting, not just in words, but actually in deeds, the promotion of women to executive and serious leadership positions. I mean, our Canadian cabinet is formed of more than 50% women, which speaks volumes to the prime minister showing his commitment to the concept of equality. But also at the same time, it bodes well for society because they bring a different skill set in terms of how they look at the world and how to change the world. I think the more that we have open society like that, and that includes the different ethnic organizations, the concept of multiculturalism, different views of the world make us stronger, not weaker.

I totally agree. And I think you touch on a really important subject there, I think, as well, because one of the unfortunate potential directions that things may head as a result of the pandemic we've come through is this isolation separatism exercise that starts to creep back in, both at the individual level, but also at the community and the state level. what are your thoughts on how to avoid a you know sort of retrograde step back to that sort of that isolation uh thinking so that we can embrace this diversity that uh you know many parts of the world like canada who's really showing the way in that regard have made some great inroads in john i don't know whether we're ever going to be able to go back to what it was uh Just the sheer rate of change in technology that is impacting on our lives, how we interact and how we adapted over this last two or three-month period in terms of our ability to find different solutions using the tools that are available

in the new technology world, digitization, sales, marketing, communication, everything, product delivery, it is all changing so quickly. So I'm hoping we don't go backwards. I'm hoping that that will provide even more opportunities for people with different points of view, with different skill sets to come to the forefront. I'm very optimistic that this opening up that we're seeing may be hard to reverse, which is not a bad thing. Terrific. And I share your optimism with that. Again, you hear some of the industry commentators start to talk about putting figurative and actual walls up like someone in the US has been doing. and someone else said to me recently they're not sure if the walls are going up

to keep people out or to keep them in. So talk to me, you mentioned again I think one of your passions given your own Ukrainian background is that embracing the ethnicity and the diversity with that. I know you've been very active in your own consultancy in the Ukraine and, you know, after Putin's invasion of Ukraine in particular, were advising ministers over there. Can you talk to us about that time?

Because, you know, again, if we talked about chess-beating leaders, Putin is certainly right up there. What did you find and what approach did you take to assist the Ukraine government at that time to sort of overcome that imposed approach that we see from that sector of the world? Well, I noticed when I was over there, I've had the privilege of meeting

both the new President Zelensky when he was in Toronto. I had a group of 10 of us meet with 10 of his cabinet ministers in Toronto just this last summer. I've also had the privilege of meeting the previous president and the prime ministers that have been there and a number of cabinet ministers and working with deputy ministers there.

And what we were trying to do is to find ways and means whereby we can identify those techniques and tools that the Western countries use that deal with human dignity, focus on taking care of citizens rather than just taking care of the oligarchs, the rich people who have had control, trying to come together with what works in terms of law and order and justice compared to, you know, judges that are on the take, you know, the corruption that exists, which has been brought over from the Russian system.

And it's a technique that the current president of Russia, Putin, is well known for. He has total control of not only the military, the economy, pretty well everything runs. And if he can't do it, you know, open and above board, he has, you know, he's got not only the underground, he's got the Russian mafia well enhanced in many parts of the world. It's a whole different, it's a world that I never understood. and his capacity for launching disinformation campaigns influencing even the 2016 Russian election, which I am convinced of, it's frightening. So my humble attempt was to try to share with Ukrainian folks what has worked in Canada.

We were in certain, you know, had the same kinds of issues that some of them were dealing with in terms of poor customer relations, our inability to zero in on a bottom line without finding ways to provide services without paying a bribe or a graft to get something done for you. We're so fortunate in Canada that it's just right. It's morally and ethically as well as it's built

on a value system that zeroes in on taking care of your neighbors and your community and your society to in fact create a better life for everyone they get it but they also realize that

Russia is right next door and they gave up all of their nuclear arms during a treaty in 1994 which was their promised protection from Russia and lo and behold they're still surviving but it's it's a very hard for them it is very difficult uh they're between

a rock and a hard place it's a you know a big challenge in in that part of work the world as a as a result of that uh tell me sort of pivoting a little bit at this point uh coming back to some of the personal challenges that you've had throughout your career and i'd like to touch on a couple of things, but first if we focused on, you know, your leadership career again, what do you believe was your greatest challenge during that enormous career you've had and how did you overcome it? I think part of, you know, lessons learned looking back

over the 35 years of government life is the realization that speaking truth to power is good up to a certain point. At some point, you have to realize that the target audience may have a different point of view. And while you've spoken it, you don't necessarily need to beat them over the head with the same story over and over again

just because you believe it so learning how to back off a little bit from time to time looking for other ways and means of communicating looking for other people building partners that can take the same message forward it doesn't have to be yourself there's lots of different tools and also realizing at the end of the day if you really really believe in something and it's and you just know that it's not going to happen in your lifetime because the person that's there is diametrically opposed to that reform or that change or then move on call it a day and realize it's not that time that place somebody else will have to take that fight on but you move on into something that you can make an impact on and realize i mean i've changed

jobs i think more times than i've changed socks so it's uh and it's and it's been helpful uh i I know how far to go, how far to push, and then I realize it's either going to go, it'll go, or it's not, and make the decision. It's a hard call to say you're not going to win everything, but you're not. You're not. Yeah, that's a major recognition because not many people get to that point. They dig in and give themselves a blood nose or worse, bashing their head against a brick wall. Can you sort of share with us an actual example of that during your career that the audience might relate to?

Oh, sure. I mean, I'll give you an example. At one point, I was working for an organization called St. John's Ambulance. It was an organization that is deep, deep in British monarchy, the organization, the priority of the hospitalers going back to crusades, Her Majesty the Queen, even to this day, they have a governing body and what

they were trying to do is to help commercialize that by selling first aid products in Canada, build a revenue stream and I believe with my heart of hearts that all of the branches across the whole country should work closer together should work with a centralized model of purchasing goods and services from suppliers so they can maximize their profits. What I didn't read in the fine lines is that some of the local

offices, individuals, really were happy doing it their way because they had control and they also had some of the the board of directors on their side and that there was another layer of activity taking place that some of the board of directors didn't like the current body that I was reporting to. So I continued to support the body that had elected me. And lo and behold,

when the elections came and new board directors decided it was, you know, I was not the person for them. And I said, you're absolutely right. Time for me to get out. But so you need to know when to call them. Yeah.

Yeah. And, again, there's not many people who have the, I think, self-belief and faith in themselves to, one, make that call and recognize what you can and can't change and put your energies into something that is going to be in alignment with what you believe but also have a greater benefit, mate. So, yeah, love that. But we'd also just like to delve in a little bit

into some of the personal challenges you've had because I know that your good wife or your good partner and yourself, Everett, have had some challenges with cancer over the journey and that dreaded word is something that puts shivers down most people's spines. Are you able and happy to perhaps share with the journey you've had as a couple through that and how you've supported each other and and how you felt when you first both found out about it and and how you've then

sort of managed through the the challenges that presented sure no we don't mind at all i mean it was a tremendous learning experience for both of us i mean my wife uh eva of polish canadian background another immigrant family ended up uh starting off a career uh in government as well and working through, and in the end, she became the first woman who held the Deputy Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as a non-police individual. She was the number two in the RCMP, and she is a very smart, hard-working woman, and she worked her heart out.

And in the process, you know, she had a very difficult time um realizing that uh it was way too much of a male macho world and in the end she knew that she had to get out and she did and soon after she got cancer um and it was a a very very strong kind of a cancer that they ended up on experimental trials giving her chemotherapy and beyond the normal doses, beyond the normal time periods to the point where, you know, if it doesn't kill you, it might make you better, but it almost did. And anyway, she survived against the odds,

and she's got, you know, five years under her belt so far, touch wood. And it was horrendous watching her go through that, the sheer strength of will and force of will to get up when you're down for under chemo and then you're knocked out completely for the next week and then you try to bring your body back to walk again so I was fortunate to have been partied to helping her as best as I could on her journey and then when I got prostate cancer again just a couple of years ago I was I think psychologically shocked by it because you don't expect it it was a random test that said, your numbers are up. My doctor gave me a call and said, I don't want to frighten

you, but you got cancer. Now I'll do what I can for you. So she was great. And I mean, I had a lot of choices. I went for the surgery. They cut out the prostate. And two years later, I'm still happy I made the decision. And I'm lucky to be alive and don't have all of my body functions the way i'd like them but you know it is what it is and uh evan i still have a great life look there until the next round hits us because once you get something like that the cancer cells are in your body somewhere you get you got they've got the first signal of it but it's just a question of time but we're all on borrowed time true let me delve in there a little bit because i'd love to explore with you how has those cancer events changed your outlook on life

to start with can you has it had an impact or is it just life as normal no i don't think life ever goes back as normal after you survive something like that It allowed us to reflect, to go back, to take a look at what's really important to each of us in life, to identify what we cherish, what has been our time wasters in terms of our life, and realize that it's a really need to, in our case, we needed to scale back. We enjoyed real estate in terms of buying and selling homes, and we've lived in different homes, so we'd upscale. And after our cancer, we decided we sold our place in Florida. We sold our house on the lake and built a smaller one, sold our interest in my parents' property as well. And so we've been downsizing, we're reflecting so that we can be in a financial position that says no matter what happens now, that either of us, you know, are ready to deal with it. At the same time, my wife, Eva, is on the Board of Directors of Dying with Dignity,

which is a Canadian organization that deals with medical assistance in dying, that both of us realize that given what cancer looks like and to die slow, long, painful deaths, and neither of us wants that. And she's on the Board of Directors. She's helping with the governance of that. The Canadian government is passing the legislation. We're way ahead of many parts of the world, and we've signed up that if anything happens, then we can make the call, and we'll make that call to say we've had a great life. Let's not burden society.

Let's not burden each other. Let's not burden our family and friends by forcing them to watch us deteriorate into vegetables. 100% agree, and having seen my good mother pass away extremely painfully over a 12-month period. and be there beside her to share the tears and the laughter and then more tears. I often say this, Paul, but we lost one of our dogs around the time that we lost my mum and the dog had a much better exit from the world than my mother did because she wasn't able to make that decision

and I'm very supportive of what yourself and Eva are doing with Dying With Dignity. I think it's a world need. We should have the ability to make our own decisions about our own lives, particularly at a point where that quality of life is such that what are you alive for? Yeah, it's a major exercise there.

You mentioned something also that I think is quite insightful and that now that you've had cancer and that the cancer cells are in your body and they might be dormant but they will raise their head again at some point in time. How does that affect your outlook and your life day-to-day, if at all? Well, I cherish every day that I wake up. I mean, I'm so blessed to have Eva as my partner and I love her dearly and we try to look at what do we want to do in terms of rewiring ourselves over the next journey that we have before us.

We don't know how long that's going to be, but there are some things in life that we still want to do, people we want to see, still have on our bucket list, as they call them. I have this desire still to get back to Australia to catch up with you and John Mackay and Richard Williams, and she's got some friends from her days in working in Australia on executive interchange as well. and with friends to be in contact with.

So it focuses you. It provides a far sharper lens in terms of what's really important in life and what's peripheral and is just noise. And we take the time to go for walks. We'll go for our kayak rides where we'll just chat or just watch the sunset on the lake. And at the same time, we're trying to see what can we still do with the the strength that we have to take on some of these what i'll call the the not-for-profit

the charitable things like dying with dignity or assisting uh ukrainian canadian organizations to keep the the flames burning in terms of freedom and and peace uh in in the in the other parts of the world so we're we're focused we're much more focused um and what's nice also we we get more asleep now we don't do 20-hour days anymore yes i well that'd be you'd be making up for them i don't know again something i'd love to delve into as well because you know i don't like this expression but uh it's one that gets used a lot both of you if you look yourself and ever side by side you're a power couple you what other people would call a power couple and both have been extremely successful in your careers and that demands a lot of blood, sweat and

tears individually and not many relationships survive that sort of pressure. How have you and Eva sort of weathered that storm? i think a lot of it has to do with uh her patience for me um and uh my absolute love and adoration of her that uh i worship the ground she walks on i uh i value every day that uh that we're alive and and that we love each other um we don't go to to sleep we hug a lot so we hold a lot and we dream a lot and we talk a lot so we're we are you know a couple that has had an opportunity throughout life to to share our ups and downs with each other we've also had the chance to deal with hard parts so we actually separated for a year while while I needed to to sort out

some stuff in my head and and it made us stronger because she was patient and understood that and we're we're still a wonderful team that reaches out to continue to coach and mentor people in our in our immediate circles but also others that come forward and are interested in what we can do to help absolutely brilliant and it's you know sharing the the good and the bad is challenging how how much do you believe that ever supportive you and your support of ever has contributed to your individual success a hundred percent uh i have to tell you that without a partner like uh ever i wouldn't not have achieved uh anywhere near not even half of uh i would have screwed up somewhere big time and uh having that uh that second opinion the the uh the

loving coach of the intelligent one as i call her and uh it's been a true open uh revealing uh you know scarily and revealing together or uh opportunity for both of us to to share the the best and the worst worst of us and uh and we have uh admired each other through through thick and thin yeah i love it paul you know having having seen you both uh together in the flesh when you last came out to australia just love the way you interact and respect each other and the the ongoing affection that you show for each other it's unfortunately quite rare these days and Sonia and I share similar views of each other

the yin and yang that combines Sonia and I you know it's the old one plus one equals eleven not two very powerful I think and I certainly wouldn't be half the person that I've continued

to work hard to be if it wasn't in fact I'd go as far as saying that Sonia makes me a better person just by being in her presence So it's very few people like yourself that enjoy that privilege And respect that privilege and work hard to enjoy that privilege So yeah, that's brilliant mate Look, I'd like to pivot now if I can into what I call the bushfire round

Which are the five questions that all the listeners love to enjoy your words of wisdom on And if I kick straight into those, the first of those is what's your favorite quote and why? I've always had on my desk three words that I always looked at and I've used quite often most of my life. and the three words were caring sharing and daring and it came from uh from a phrase or an expression and i don't know who the source of it is it's one of those anonymous ones that says you know excellence can be achieved if you number one care more than others think is wise number two share more than others think practical and number three dare more than others think safe And in each of those times when I care, share, and dare, I know I'm out on a limb.

I know I could be having somebody behind me cutting the limb. But sometimes, you know, it's worth the risk. Yeah, I love that. I love that. They're three very powerful words because caring is about others, sharing is about helping others, and daring is about making a difference. and, yes, I love it. I hadn't heard that before actually, Paul, and I love that. I'm going to adopt that, mate.

I'm sorry. Good for you. But turning to the – because you're obviously an avid reader over your time, what's the top book that you'd recommend people have a look at and why? Well, there's just so much on the market nowadays. it's incredible but you know one that has stuck with me I think throughout

it is a Walt Disney biography and it's Walt Disney is a very common name in terms of the Disney enterprise but Walt himself when you have a chance to reflect from rags to riches

and his creative genius his risk taking you know and just what he had to go through from being just a simple cartoonist to building a you know the huge empire of Disney in the middle

of Florida where you got alligator ridden swampland and he built a magical kingdom I mean I've been to Florida I've been to I think Walt Disney's kingdom in Florida at least six or seven times and the one

in California a couple times i'm totally in awe how one individual with a vision with the sheer determination with with the guts just would not let go no matter how many times he got beaten down it's an incredible book to read about almost it reminds me of one of us would say the person that you and i knew when we worked in in australian government john mckay has written a book about himself how he pulled himself up by the bootstraps uh from the outback and uh that's another great book to read the john mckay m-a-c-k-y is the author it should be available in in australia great books that say you know if anybody can do it you can do it and he they both did yeah i love it yeah very

inspirational i haven't read john mckay's book i'll definitely go and grab a copy having having met, John, because of you, actually, in the very early formative days of what we're doing at Works Australia. So yeah, awesome, mate. Now, next question is a little bit of a tangent, but it's a question that most Aussies believe they pay too much tax. So we won't go into the discussion around that, because if you don't pay tax, you don't get the services, but that's another subject on its own. What's the top legal thing that you've done to minimise of tax that you pay, Paul? Well, I must confess I have been paying taxes most of my life, but once I got to the stage of out of the government, I incorporated a consultancy. So under the

articles of incorporation, both federally and provincially, it allows you then to deduct expenses from the income that you earn. You can invest in education and studies. You can pay for your travel uh you can pay out dividends all of that reduces the taxable the bill that you get so having paid the full taxes on 35 years of government the last 10 years have been just a life a lifeline to uh be able to reinvest and and enjoy the the tools the government has given the private sector yeah yeah i love that uh now back on the investment subject uh for a minute but what do you consider to be both the worst and the best piece of investment advice that you've ever received?

Well, my dad, who, you know, an illiterate immigrant in Canada and who basically bought fixed-up houses, rented them, sold them. And he told me on more than one occasion, be careful of the stock market and invest in real estate because real estate is real. And that was great advice. And I remember when my dad took risks on the stock market, didn't know what he was really doing, invested when he didn't have enough to invest, lost it all. when he was most financially vulnerable and the hardship, the ache, the pain, I've never seen a man almost crumble from a decision that he had made. And he recovered and he recovered through sound real estate,

financial investments. And I, I, you know, I've got some stocks, I've got some bonds, but it's, it's penny Annie stuff and all my money is basically tied up in real tangible assets and that's real estate. yeah yeah i mean you've worked out on your career which has funded the what you've built in wealth in property and and the uh i guess the ongoing pension that the the government's afforded you given the the tremendous career dedication you've done that you're you're really now both having worked so hard enjoying the fruits of that uh and living living life the way that

you love to do um last question then uh that relates to habits because it's the you know the little things we do on a daily basis that become big things over time what's a personal habit that you believe has contributed most to your success over your career paul well i think that uh with respect to investments uh evan and i have a very very close conversations uh we see eye to eye on on on most things in life and certainly uh we've uh we've come to the conclusion that what we want to invest in is what she and i both enjoy so if if uh you know if it's a good financial sound uh concept if we're going to enjoy it let's invest the money that we do have into those areas that will allow us to to grow to mature to to add value to ourselves and to the

people around us so it's very much a joint decision making process and it's just a habit that we have in terms of just checking with each other to say how's it going and are we on the right track yeah again that partnership is very powerful and it's very key very key yeah and and Sonia and I are exactly the same in that regard. No, awesome. Final question, and this is a big one. If I gave you a microphone that spoke to every single one of the 7.7 or 7.8 billion people that's currently in the world

and I gave you one minute to talk, what would you say? That's a lot of people, I'd say, to begin with. And that's one of the challenges that we have in the world. But I would have to say to everybody, given that we're in this pandemic, we have been through worse. I think I'd have to say you can't be afraid because we've ridden through wars and other pandemics. Collectively, I believe that as a society, as a people, we can overcome so many obstacles if, number one, we work together. and that requires a tremendous amount of trust in each other and in trust in our leaders and and we have to do what's right uh not what feels good i mean i i watch with some horror when

i see that our strongest medical research and their researchers and advisors are saying here's what you need to do and then so many people will just say well you know i would rather just feel good so don't wear the mask you know get close and hug your friends uh don't isolate so i i'm just say it's it's it's you got to do what's right and it's got to be right for not just yourself but for the people around you keep them safe so ground you know ground yourself and the values uh the key values of what makes you you know generosity respect help each other values like truth, working hard and, you know, and just the sheer resilience that we are able to get through this and we will get out the other end and we will be stronger for it.

100% agree and always believe that what we think about is what we bring about. And if our collective outlook is optimistic, we'll have an optimistic future. If it's pessimistic, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and there's never a greater need nor greater time for us to be optimistic and act optimistically about our future because we will collectively make that happen and i think that some very important parting words around the importance of values and and the need i think you make a very good comment there about doing what's right not what feels good in this instant iphone world that we live in paul and unfortunately there's a tendency to just defer to the instant gratification versus what's going to be in everyone's best

interest moving forward uh it's just a testimony i think to your approach to life and the the fruits of your life for everyone to see in terms of the massive impact you've had on everyone that's had the privilege of working with you and for you, of which I'm one of them. But in coming to a close, mate, you've been very generous again with your time. Any parting words or parting thoughts you'd like to leave us with?

I just want everybody to feel positive about the future. Do what you can to make life as easy as it is for your friends and your family and believe that you can achieve what you wish to achieve but it all comes through hard work and it all comes through your absolute commitment

to success so believe in yourselves and I certainly have and I have been so blessed because success attracts successful people brilliant words thank you for the opportunity and it's been a privilege uh having worked with you and uh you have in fact uh you know you and sonja have been incredible inspirations in our lives uh and and watching your podcasts or listening to them and uh and watching you on on many of your programs uh even though i'm in canada uh you're you're never that far away and

I'm always amazed at how much range and depth you have and the kind of outreach that you have. God bless you. I'm turning red now. Luckily, people can't see me, mate, but I'm very humbled by those words from someone like yourself who I respect so greatly. And I can't wait to catch up with yourself

and have either back here in Aussie where you know you've got somewhere to stay we don't have to think about that, or if we can get ourselves organised and our government will allow us to get on a plane probably 12 months away, then Canada is still very big on the horizon because I think Canada and Australia are probably the two best countries in the world to spend time in. I agree completely.

I agree completely. I have a niece that lives in Australia up in Brisbane, and so we're waiting for the flights to open up as well so we can go to see, and she's got a baby. So this is all good news. Fantastic, mate. Well, look, thanks again for being so generous and we'll stay in touch

and I'll look forward to talking to you soon. All the very best and thank you for the opportunity and the privilege. Thanks, mate. Bye for now. Well, Freedom Fighters, how good was that? To get a summary of all this investment gold in the show notes,

just email me on hello at khgroup.com.au. It's H-E-L-L-O at khgroup.com.au. Or check us out at www.bushymartin.com.au forward slash getinvested. I look forward to joining you next week for another episode of the Get Invested podcast. So thanks for listening. And as always, dream as if you live forever and live as if you die tomorrow. Thanks for watching!