Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Realty Talk - Buying smarter as baby boomers get boost

Episode Date: July 11, 2024

Ben Handler is a Buyers Agent who decided, some years ago, to share his vast knowledge and train those wanting to become buyers agents.  Since then he has trained over 4,000 agents through his Buyers Agent Institute and in so doing has created an enormous shift in how buyers find and secure a property.  Also today, Bushy catches up with Mark Macduffie from Downsizer.com to find out how he is giving Baby Boomers a helping hand as record numbers of them are downsizing.  Before we start I want to thank our supporters and content partners Realty.com.au, BMT Tax Depreciation, Know How Property Finance, Get RARE Property and Apiro Marketing.  You will find us on all podcast players as The Property Hub also on the Southern Cross Austereo Network, Hot Copper, and on all social media platforms.  Subscribe for free to Realty Talk on the Property Hub channel, join our community and get more insights here: https://linktr.ee/propertyhubau Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast network DM Media.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

but i think there are buyers now involved in a transaction or process they're probably starting to realize that if i had a buyer's agent by my side the probability of me getting a better result is going to be much better much superior that's ben handler one of our guests on this week's show big welcome to the show as well ben is a buyer's agent and ben decided some years ago to share his vast knowledge and train those wanting to become a buyer's agent, just how they can get started and how they can build a profitable business. Well, since then, he's trained over 4,000 agents through his Buyer Agent Academy. And in so doing, he's created an enormous shift in how buyers now find and secure a property to call home or as an investment. We learn more

about how buying property has become so much easier, faster, and more efficient. Also today, Bushy catches up with Mark McDuffie to find out how he's giving baby boomers a helping hand as record numbers of them are downsizing. But just before we start, I want to thank our supporters and content partners, realty.com.au, BMT Tax Depreciation Know How Property Finance Get Rare Property and Apiro Marketing

Don't forget too you'll find us on all podcast players as The Property Hub Also we're on the Southern Cross Austereo Network on Hot Copper and on all social media platforms Property deductions can save you

thousands of dollars each year to make sure you maximise deductions you need to work with the most experienced quantity surveyor in the country. BMT Tax Depreciation is the leading specialist in the industry. They've completed over 700,000 tax deduction schedules for residential investment

and commercial properties Australia-wide. BMT guarantee to find double your fee in the first full financial year deductions. Call BMT on 1300 728 726 today for an obligation free quote. Realty Talk and your host Bushy Martin We're witnessing a surge of growth in the numbers of buyers agents and we're seeing evidence of a tangible influence that they're having

on the buying and selling process The important role of a buyer's agent that is representing the buyer in a real estate transaction is now no longer being debated Good representation on behalf of the buyer is long overdue. It's unreasonable and quite frankly, it's ridiculous to hold on to the theory that an agent representing the seller can also act in the best interest of the buyer. So with that comes a recognition of the enormous and valuable assistance that a good buyer

agent can bring to a transaction and that is not just for the buyer but also for the listing agent ben handler himself a buyer's agent saw the growing demand for better representation for buyers in what could be the biggest purchase that they'll ever make so he said about educating those wanting to become buyers agents about how to get started how they can build a successful business from the ground up or qualify to join an established team in an existing buyer agency ben created the buyer agency academy and ben joins us now to explain more ben firstly How many people have come through the academy and is the demand for its service increasing?

So Buyer's Agents Institute was launched 2018. Where we are today, there's about 4,050 in the group. Not all are active operational buyer's agents. In terms of demand and where it's going, I mean, it's just increasing year on year. So the search for buyer's agents, that trajectory is just going straight north. I'm going to tap in and ask you some reasons for that. But before I do, could you just lay out for us the difference between a buyer's agent

and what we've known as a traditional or what they're now being called listing agents? What's the difference, Ben? The key difference is as a buyer's agent, you are engaged specifically by the buyer. In most instances, exclusively by the buyer. You're being remunerated by the buyer. So obviously like a selling agent is representing a seller, they are getting remunerated by the seller. They're representing the seller's best interest.

The buyer's agent is effectively just doing that on the buy side. We're also, you know, representing them for auction bidding in isolation if required. We do negotiation only if required. But typically most buyer's agents are operating on a full service, which is start to finish. Mr and Mrs buyer wants to buy investment or own a rock or whatever it is and the buyer's agent will fulfill the entire journey. Those differences you've set out for us there would require a different level of training or is the training for traditional agents pretty

much the same as buyer agents? What are the differences? I would say it's typically much of a muchness for example so if you're a buyer's agent though focusing on investor clients as your core offering a real estate agent in what they know at the moment in terms of what they do most likely they won't be up to speed with how to deal with that because there's research involved that is beyond you know core logic or price finder you know you've got to look elsewhere and understand and in terms of developing a portfolio strategically for your clients it requires a different level of thinking and skill set as well but if you're doing owner as a buyer's agent i think real estate agents can transition to that very very easily yeah i touched

on in the introduction and that is that there's been an incredible increase in the number of buyers agents and when we look back on it i mean i've been an active agent um predominantly listing since 1988. So it's a fairly long time. And I must admit, I have struggled from time to time trying to understand how I could represent properly a buyer and a seller at the same time when you're trying to sit in the middle of negotiations. Long winded way to ask you the question about, you know, what's caused this increase? Is it as simple as wanting better representation by buyers? I think there's a few reasons. One is I think I've definitely driven the increase since i started the institute in 18 like if you look at the number of buyers

agents in 2018 versus now it's dramatically shifted um so i think that i've put a very focused conscious effort into growing the industry and so i think that's been one factor i think another factor um for me that i observed was covid so i've been in the industry as a buyers agent since 2009 right and it wasn't until 2020 that i for me started to really see a massive shift in consumer awareness for buyers agents in Australia and that's because if you're in Victoria during COVID and you wanted to buy in a different part of Victoria or interstate you couldn't get there so you had to in most cases go to a buyers agent so I think COVID was or has been pivotal to an increase of awareness and also just buyers agents in general increasing

And also, I think we're at a time where it's very difficult to buy property at the moment, right? Even though rates have, you know, skyrocketed 13 times over the last two years, it's very, very difficult for the average buyer to buy. And so I think due to that frustration, right, and lack of stock, they're like, hey, it's time to outsource. Let's get the professional in.

So I think those three factors have been pivotal. want to ask you a question too about off market we're hearing a lot of that term off market and so on and i i'd really be keen to get your view on this the the role of the buyer's agent has largely been built on the thought that a buyer's agent will get access to a lot of off-market stock what are you seeing amongst your members are they focused purely on that or are Are they providing a good service for owner-occupiers as well? It's an interesting question. So I'll rewind back a bit.

So when I was a co-handler as a buyer's agent, I used to get a lot of people, potential customers, coming to see me saying, hey, I want off-market. And after about three years of hearing that at the early stage of my career, I was like, why do they want off-market? And then I started to realise and peel back that their actual real problem was they couldn't buy what's on the market, which is why they wanted off the market.

they couldn't get a deal done on the markets they wanted off and so to answer your question off the market in a lot of cases like i'm looking to buy a property myself and both properties that i've liked that were off market fell through the vendor wasn't motivated the vendor decided not to sell so off market and they were both overpriced so off market doesn't always represent the best option to get a deal done and so a lot of buyers agents they are not only providing access to off market, but pre-market, post-market, on-market. I personally think the true value of a buyer's agent is buying what's on the market. When there's a property that's available to the public and everyone can have a go, if the buyer's agent has a very strong strategic relationship with that

real estate agent, I think that's where their true value starts to really flower. But there are still some very good off-market opportunities there's some very good pre-market opportunities but i think as a buyer's agent you need to um you need to bring them all together and explore all the channels and then the best property will win in whatever channel it sits in yeah yeah very very good advice there and i do think too there's a misunderstanding about the term off-market there is no such thing really i mean if it's if it's listed with an agent it's technically on the market, it really means that it's just not on a portal. So I tend to think it should be called pre-portal. And that's one of the advantages. Our major sponsor, of course, is Realty Marketplace.

And that's one of the advantages there where agents are now putting it onto the marketplace prior to putting it onto one of the portals, which is giving buyers agents access to stock that a buyer might not necessarily be able to see until it does actually become listed. I mean, I tend to agree with you, right? Like if it's with an agent, it's been, you know, there's been an agency agreement signed between, you know, a real estate agent and vendor. You're right.

It's technically on the market. It's not just on realestate.com or a portal. You're right. I think that there's a bit of a misconception around, you know, just off markets being the solution to buy property. Like, again, I'm looking to buy myself. and the off-market properties that i've seen um have been the most challenging for me in terms of i've liked them but they've been the hardest to buy right and so i think you do have to question

why is it off market i think you have to ask questions like why isn't it and maybe the vendor doesn't want to pay advertising maybe the vendor doesn't want to open up the property and disrupt a tenant. I mean, there could be a number of reasons as to why, but I think what's most important is asking the hard questions to begin with as to why this property is not marketed online and going through a campaign. In your opinion, I mean, buyer's agents are becoming more and more the norm nowadays. The impact of the buyer's agent on the process of buying and selling real estate or particularly buying, is that changing? What sort of impact is that having on the buying process, where people are buying, how educated they are when they buy and even on

prices? Do you see it having any kind of impact? Absolutely. I mean, going back to your earlier question regarding the surge of buyer's aids and the demand, I think as an average buyer, if you're trying to buy something, typically, I mean, Morgan Stanley did a report recently for the rea group where they they estimated last year around three to five percent of transactions were done with the you know with a buyer's agent which is very small okay so it's very small and that's and that's a an estimate as well but i think there are buyers now involved in a transaction or process and there's a buyer's agent involved as well as you know competition to them and then they're probably starting to realize that hey like maybe if i had a buyer's agent by my side

the probability of me getting a better result or getting access to a different property or just getting a better outcome in general is is going to be much better much superior so i think a lot of buyers now they're becoming a lot more educated on the importance of having expert independent representation just like you would get a mortgage broker an accountant you'd engage a lawyer you'd engage a real estate agent if you're looking to sell i think the awareness and the education to the buyer through just, I guess, better consumer awareness in the media around the benefits of a buyer's agent, I think is getting the average buyer to think a bit differently around representation. Can you just give me an idea as to what are you seeing as the challenges

that are facing buyer's agents now as they're coming into the marketplace? There's one key challenge that I've been hearing about a lot lately, and I'm seeing a lot, is is stock because it's so competitive out there i mean i'm talking quite general because there's some markets which aren't and there's some areas which aren't but i'm talking like southeast queensland south australia wa typically investor focus but also a bit of owner rock in blue chip areas um it's very difficult to buy and so i think i think a challenge for buyers agents as the industry grows is actually around the volume of transactions they'll be able to do within a month or a quarter or a financial year, because it's becoming very hard to buy property. That's a big

challenge. And going back to some earlier questions around the need to use a buyer's agent, you can only imagine the average buyer is trying to, you know, it could be their first time buying a property or they could be quite inexperienced. Like that's what they're up against. And it's very difficult. Congratulations on what you're doing with BAI. It certainly is inspirational to see it continue to grow. And, you know, we're dedicating more and more time in this show to how that's happening. So we'd love to have you back in the future at some stage as our guest. And thanks very much for your time today. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it. property. More than mortgage brokers, Bushy Martin and his team of investment architects

set you up with a sustainable strategy structured to lower your costs, tax, risk and stress while increasing your capacity for growth. KnowHow has helped over 1,900 homeowners and investors secure more than $800 million in property wealth. So get set to live more, work less and live your legacy. Want to know how to invest in your freedom? Visit knowhowproperty.com.au. This is Realty Talk, powered by realty.com.au. Now, a baby boom is now making up about 25% of our population

to the tune of over 6 million of us, and roughly a quarter of those looking to right-size their home in the near future to free up equity and lifestyle, given that many are asset-rich and cash-poor but are handcuffed and housebound because they just can't free up the deposit to make the change. Industries disruptor and problem solver Downsizer.com has developed a unique solution to fix this,

which they released a couple of years ago. And the MD and co-founder, Mark McDuffie, joins us again to give us a bit of an update on how things are tracking. So welcome back to Realty Talk, Mark. Thanks, Bushy. Always appreciate our conversations. Likewise, because I love what you're doing in this space

and there's a big and growing need. But I guess just to kick things off, Mark, for those who haven't had a chance to see your previous appearances here on the show, can you start by giving us a bit of a quick refresher on the problems that right-sizers are facing and what Downsizer does to help solve those? Yeah, thank you, Bushy. So we're Downsizer.com.

As Bushy says, we've been in the market now for about two years. The first 12 months of that was really discreetly in pilot mode, ironing out some kinks with property developers in three states originally. Now, Downsizer solves a problem on two sides of the marketplace. We are working with property developers and vendors on one side of the marketplace who are increasingly building stock in an environment where there's less buyers and less mortgages approved in the market because of interest rates. They're doing it tough.

So property developers on one side trying to sell, and on the other side, you've got this, as you alluded to, This cohort of Australians and actually global citizens, the baby boomer generation, is a macroeconomic trend. They're expressing the pain points in a different way. Up and down the country, they're walking into property, open houses or sales suites and saying, I really love the property, but we have to sell our current home first because we don't have the 5% or 10% cash deposit to exchange. The downsizer really sits at the intersection of those two forces. Yep, so talk to us about how that works because people are going to be saying,

okay, well, I've sort of got a head around this, but how are you breaking that nexus and facilitating it so they're able to secure the next home before they sell the home? Yeah, so we've kind of had two big innovations. We've got the technology side of the innovation, which is we can prove who Bushy is, his net equity, the house that he owns,

any outstanding debts i can say with bushy's permission of course how much bushy has in net equity now bushy may have a four million pound four million dollar house that he or she wholly owns that means he's got four million dollars of equity bushy wants to simplify his life and he wants to buy a two million dollar apartment off the plan at this really sensational development with beach views and simple lock-up facilities amenities all that kind of stuff bushy wants to simplify his life for whatever reason. So the digital technology allows us to qualify all of Bushy's personal information

and his net equity. But we present that to the property developer or the vendor to say, Bushy's good for it. Bushy doesn't need to pay a 10% cash deposit. So if Bushy was buying a $2 million property, he or she would have to find a $200,000 cash deposit to exchange.

What we do is we have this unique financial instrument that allows Bushy to exchange and stay in his current $4 million property, allow capital growth whilst the new one's being built, and then he can exchange and he or she needs to pay the full asking price at settlement. So basically we've got two sides of the problem. There's an insurance instrument that's issued

or a bond instrument that's issued by our underwriter that protects the developer or the vendor in the event that Bushy walks away. the cost of that is a fraction of because it's not a lending product it's an insurance type instrument yes the cost is therefore a fraction of what it would cost bushy as a bridging finance to complete so we issue a downsizer bond that allows bushy to exchange on his two million dollar property and he can stay in his current property until the new one's ready the only issue that Bushy has if he doesn't complete there is a claim but that's the unhappy path what we're

seeing is Bushy's made a lifestyle decision he or she wants to simplify their lives and they're simplifying by selling their four million dollar property buying a two million dollar and they've got two million dollars in net equity that will transform their lives yeah no it's it's really an unlocking key that you brought to the table that that's releasing the handcuffs of those that are stuck in that position where they can't move the property or it's too hard or too expensive or even not possible for some to actually get bridging finance in the current climate,

given that, you know, lending requirements have tightened up a fair bit in recent times. So it's a real access key in that perspective. Since we last spoke, you know, we went through it in a bit of detail a couple of years ago. what's new and improved since we had those initial chats mark new and improved uh it's a lot happens in a year in startup so i'll try and summarize as much as i can i think it's just over a year since we spoke so key changes for us would be

market adoption has has really taken taken hold so we now have um more than 3 000 properties for sale on our platform we have and the value of those properties for sale is now more than 3.4 billion of stock so we have more stock for downsizers to come to our platform and search for where they want to where they want to live we've got great properties now on in in perth sydney um melbourne uh queensland southeast queensland gold coast uh canberra we're all over the place now so number one is we have more choice and more stock available to suit your needs yeah we also do existing properties now we've had our the first two sales of uh existing property So it doesn't have to be only off the plan, which is a real step change.

Yes. The other thing that is significant, but not everybody really appreciates the barrier that was there. We had an underwriting rating that wasn't on par with the market leader QBE. We are now the same rated. So we are standard and pause A plus rated, which means that it's opened up all of the institutional players. So now we have sold properties in conjunction with all the big players. We have Mervac signed with us, Second City House signed with us. We've sold with Colliers, we've sold with CBUS.

We, you know, the real game changer there is investment grade, which builds trust for both the property developer, the real estate agent and the purchaser and the conveyances in the middle. So we've really lifted the game from, you know, we're acting like enterprise. we like to say we're enterprise from leadership down to the first line of code so we're all operating like we are an institutional player most of our staff have come from large institutions so that's just out of the box for us yeah so if i summarize the biggest thing for us is we're investment grade a plus so the adoption becomes quicker yeah as a result of that we have much more clock right across the country and we now do existing properties as well yeah let's start let's dive into that existing piece for a minute because i mean i mean in terms of the potential

scope uh and the opportunity that could ripple out of the uh existing space given that there's still some challenges for some in the construction industry it's it's not easy at the moment uh and i'm sure what you bring to the table is actually facilitating developers in terms of pre-sales which is helping their own funding to shore up the follow-through on the developments. But certainly there's a fair bit of nerves in the waves at the moment for anything off the plan or new build, that sort of opening the door into the existing space.

Can you talk a little bit more about that and where that's heading? Yeah. Well, as a proportion of the market, you know, existing sales in australia make up you know at it i would say it's probably about 65 of residential sales maybe even more than that given the the resistance to off the plan that you mentioned so it's a huge market for us but really the way that we're operating is the bond is exactly the same we still qualify that bushy has enough equity but really where we're seeing that existing property bond use is let's say you've got an auction um bushy bushy uh sorry i don't know

where you live bushy but i'll make it i'll make it up right so bushy lives in the eastern suburbs of sydney yeah bushy's lived in his house uh in ranwick for 25 years his kids and his grandkids have moved on he's rattling around and he wants to make a move now there's not a lot of new builds or but bushy might not trust trust new builds when he sees an apartment or a house around the corner he knows the apartment he knows the building because he's walked past it for a coffee to his you know he walks past his favorite barista every day and he goes if i would like to move but i can't find the right stock oh look something's appeared at auction around the corner it's going to auction in eight weeks yeah there's no way bushy's going to be able to sell his house within eight weeks

bushy doesn't have the deposit to exchange yeah so what we do is work with agents selling that property um at auction and we can pre-qualify bushy so we take him through the process and we say hey bushy you can bid at auction up to a certain price so we use the same numbers as we did before yeah but she's got a four million dollar net equity house in ranwick bushy wants to buy a two million dollar smaller place in the same suburb um he doesn't have two hundred thousand dollar deposit and he hasn't sold his current house first yep we pre-qualify bushy to bid bid up to the amount that he wants to so if he's got four million dollars in net equity he can actually bid up to four million dollars but you know bushy might not want to do that so bushy can take his

pre-approval to the auction and say to the agent, provided the vendor's willing to accept a slightly delayed settlement, because Bushy still has to sell his current house to settle on the end. So we do a short-term bond, three to six months, provided the vendor is willing to accept delayed settlement for a better price. Now, what that means is if you're a good agent and you're trying to drive people to an auction, instead of three cash buyers bidding, you might have three cash buyers plus four pre-approved downsizer bonds you've now got seven people bidding for the same property the vendor's going to get a better outcome 100 that's that's pretty exciting where i think that will go to uh once once the awareness and the opportunity both from the

professionals and the general uh property audience get their head around that that's a massive game changer i think potentially mark that's it it replaces the need for bridging finance right and our underwriters deposit power and they've been in in market for 30 years and 98 of their business is short-term bonds and they are either existing properties at auction or bridging finance or whatever the need might be or bushy might have a term deposit um that's that's maturing in you know six weeks eight weeks ten weeks so he doesn't have the cash but he's got proven funds So you can use these bonds to bid at auction or exchange without the need for a cash exchange.

It's a phenomenal product in this market where you talk about bridging finance earlier on. Since the Royal Commission, it's very hard to get bridging funding if you don't have an income. So it's almost like it's irresponsible. Yeah, almost impossible, actually, in that context. So real game changer there. I know when we spoke last time, you had some almost global

expansion plans uh i know there's been a bit of work happening in that area but particularly in the uk yeah can you share how that's progressing and and what will be the trickleback impact on what you're doing locally as a result yeah i mean if i take it a little step back our business the genesis of our business was you know a property developer co-founder uh that's reflected that for every property he sold he could sell two or three more if he could remove the need for a cash deposit within three to six months we quickly like found through customer center design this downsizer or baby boomer sector in australia there's 1.9 million aussies that are 55 and above planning on downsizing that is not limited to the island of australia no right so there's

1.9 million in australia there's 7.2 million in the uk that are 55 and above and of that cohort in the UK, 98%, sorry, 7.2 million, and their average stored equity is 98% in that cohort. There's trillions of pounds of equity in the UK, and the macroeconomics are almost identical. Developers are doing it tough, builders are doing it tough, economy's tough, mortgage rates are up, so there's less approved mortgages in the market. The downsizers have the key to the property problem in australia there's 13 million spare beds empty every night yeah and they are controlled by the bait and boomer segment and on the other side of the market you've got those trying to get onto the market that are locked out we don't have a housing crisis we've got like a supply problem

and a transition problem and the uk is the same so where we're quickly and the us we've identified the top 10 states that we would do in in the u.s and again the macroeconomics don't lie 24 million homeowners in the top 10 states that we would look at in the u.s are 60 plus and wholly on there so this macroeconomic trend of unlocking equity by using a bond to replace a cash deposit is going to work over time and yes the adoption has been you know slower in australia than we'd like but we're now there we've sold 65 million dollars of property in australia yeah that's not bad for a style that's in the uk we're in yeah if we were a small agent setting up on the corner of a street or high street we'd be pretty happy we'd be slapping high-fiving and slapping each other's

backs but startup worlds expect billion dollar revenues in 10 minutes that doesn't happen but we are we're slowly chipping away we're doing better than most but the uk really excites me because the adoption there so far has been phenomenal compared to australia the speed where they're accepting the concept and the principle. And we're very close to signing with one of the biggest real estate agents, chains, national real estate agent in the UK. The stock list that we have lined up in the UK

for launch later this year is 3.5 billion pounds, 7 million Aussie. Put that into context. We've been in business for two years in Australia and we've only got half that. a pilot will be that size in the uk yeah amazing because i'm thinking here as you're talking mark and there's so much discussion in all levels of media media and from politicians and policy makers about the housing affordability crisis but if you if you drill down on that the listing levels at

the moment uh you know i keep a close eye on this mark and depending on where you are the number of properties for sale are down anywhere between 25 to 40 percent now a lot of that is because people are homebound that they want to make a move but they don't have the ability to do so now if a smart politician and a policymaker from a level of government recognize the ability to use the downsizer approach to free up equity uh so that's going to spill over into the economy it's also going to create a chain reaction that's going to because we've got an accessibility problem here that frees up that exercise, then the roll-on effects are actually massive.

So I think there's a real opportunity for anyone listening in, if you're in government or you've got an impact on policy, you need to reach out to Mark and the Downsizer team because there's a big opportunity here to free up those blocked doors that currently sit there because it's just impossible to make the move. I completely agree, Ray. I think there's no one solution or silver bullet

to the property equation here in Australia or the UK. We very much see ourselves as being part of that because we can see this long-held stock that isn't being freed up because the downsizers either have a financial block or they can't find property that suits them. But I really genuinely believe there's a combination of solutions

that can help the government's target for more stock, but also releasing this long-held stock and the 13 million spare bedrooms a night just blows my mind in australia it's so sad yeah no it's it's something that could be fairly simply sold if we thought outside of the box and stopped following the the old traditional models and it's the old you know definition of insanity you you keep on trying to do the same thing and wonder why i don't get a different result well these are the sort of initiatives that we need to be leaping on look uh this is really exciting mark i was excited last time i spoke to you i'm just as excited now because i think the

opportunity is actually bigger now than what we were initially talking we're only talking about off the plan before that there's now the burgeoning existing opportunity for people to take advantage of for those that are listening in and can see the same potential here uh how can downsizers and developers that might be listening and real estate agents as well for that matter who can see this as a way to free up potential sales for them that might be sitting there that can't do anything at the moment. How can they find out more and whether downsizer.com is right for them, Mark? You can go on the website and register for information and that will end up in hello at downsizer.com. But I'm always keen to speak to everybody. So my name is Mark McDuffie. You

can hit me at mark at downsizer.com. You can hit me on LinkedIn. We'd love to speak to downsizers, policymakers, real estate agents, property developers, anyone that wants to try and unlock this 1.9 million homeowners that are moving whether we we exist or not it will happen and we're just here to help it along the way so yeah hit us up on either the website hit me up on linkedin drop us an email there's a there's information on the website there as well so there's many different ways to get me and uh i've always made myself available so just hit me up yeah no and i'll be encouraging everyone to do that because the more the word gets out about the solution that you bring to the table,

the better everyone's going to be. So look, again, I just want to thank you for bringing us up to speed with this really great solution opportunity. And again, thanks for joining us here on the show today, Mark. Thank you so much, Bushy. Take care. Are you curious about harnessing your super

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