Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Realty Talk: Property Market Mismatch + Investor Affordability

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

Veronica Morgan is a highly respected real estate expert with extensive experience in the Sydney and New South Wales property markets. With a career spanning over 25 years, Veronica has established herself as a leading authority on property investment, renovation, and buying and selling strategies. This week with Veronica, we discuss the current state of the Sydney and NSW property markets. Veronica will share her insights on the impact of COVID-19 on the property market, the ongoing changes in demand and supply, and the latest trends and predictions for the future. RealtyTalk is part of the Property Hub podcast channel, your home for property investment insights, inspiration, and stories from Australia’s top property experts, investors, leaders, and analysts. Subscribe now to get every RealtyTalk episode delivered to you each week for free, and also get full access to Get Invested, the leading podcast for Australians who want to unlock their full ‘self, health, and wealth’ potential and get inspired by the stories of investors, founders, and entrepreneurs. Subscribe to RealtyTalk on the Property Hub channel: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Email Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast network DM Media. Business and partnership enquiries: [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Realty Talk, the show that brings together the country's most authoritative and respected property experts. Follow us on all the socials and subscribe for updates and exclusive offers. Realty Talk is powered by realty.com.au, connecting buyers, sellers and agents differently. Hi and welcome to this week's Realty Talk show. Your property hubs go to home for property investment insights, inspiration and stories from Australia's top property experts, leaders and analysts. I'm your anchor, Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property Finance, and this week's show is all about affordability for investors, landlords, buyers, and renters. Because there's a lot of talk about housing affordability, but when was the last time you heard about

investor affordability? About how tough mum and dad property investors are faring as costs continue to spiral. Leading property analyst, Simon Presley from Propertyology joins us to balance the books on this important subject. And according to Ian Ugarte of Invita, the reason everyone everywhere is suffering housing affordability challenges is due to a property market mismatch. And he joins me today to reveal a great solution to solve it for the benefit of all. Now, before we get into it, if you're enjoying the show, I want to thank you for tuning in. And I need to ask you a small special, special, I can't even say it, a small personal favour that will have a big impact because we really need your help in order to continue to attract

great guests and enjoy great conversations by hitting the like button as well as the subscribe button wherever you're listening to or watching the show because we're on a mission to get to 1 million subscribers in order to continue to attract the best of the best and by helping me to help you together we're actually going to help those that are less fortunate that have no voice have no choice because for every new subscriber together we're going to help save lives as we'll donate a day's worth of life-saving water to families in Tigray Ethiopia so do everyone a massive favor and take a couple of seconds to subscribe now and make sure you also sign up on the realty.com.au homepage where you'll also get a free copy of my award-winning book Get Invested

just for making the effort. We've got lots of property insights to share so let's get on with the show. Property deductions can save you thousands of dollars each year. To make sure you maximise deductions, you need to work with the most experienced quantity surveyor in the country. BMT Tax Depreciation is the leading specialist in the industry. They've completed over 700,000 tax deduction schedules for residential investment and commercial properties Australia-wide. BMT guarantee to find double your fee in the first full financial year deductions. Call BMT on 1300 728 726 today for an obligation-free quote. Now, I don't know about you, but it feels like barely a day passes without a miserable story

about housing affordability and the terrible plight of tenants. But when was the last time you heard a story about investor affordability? About how tough mum and dad property investors are faring as costs continue to spiral? The sad reality is that there's constant negative noise about tenants not being able to find rentals or afford rapidly rising rents and the convenient donkey to pin the tail on and point the finger at is always the villainized, silent but deadly, greedy property investor. But does this myth actually stack up? Well, to put this to the test, we're joined by Australia's number one property analyst and Real Estate Institute Hall of Famer, Simon Presley from Propertyology. So welcome back to

the show simon thank you bushy rents geez we've been a big topic last few years hasn't it it sure has and and rightly so to some degree but uh as you and i know the the causes of that go way back but uh simon i know you've done a lot of research on the real picture when it comes to actual cash flow affordability for investors so what's your research telling you about investor cash flow trends across the country yeah well i guess firstly people need to be reminded that um we go back 70 years since the completion of world war ii mate and um for every one of those seven years three in ten households across this huge country have lived in rental accommodation so we're talking about something that is essential the roof over people's heads and 96 percent of

australia's total rental stock is funded by that everyday aussie only four percent by government so yes we looked um our research report you're referring to looked recently at cash flows now one side of that is the income the rent the tenant that's the expense but a summary of of rents first um over the last five years um a standard house in melbourne up 80 a week sydney up 120 you might know that five years um they went down i've come back up again recently in sydney melbourne other parts of australia have just been up up up up for four five six years um but you know i guess different parts of um australia hobart up 140 bendio up 120 dollars per week Dubbo up $135,000, Albury up $135,000 a week, Cairns up $140,000, Maryborough and Queensland up $185,000,

Launceston up $140,000, Bustard on up $160,000. It's widespread. And roughly what does that equate to? About $5,000 extra income per year this year compared to five years ago. That's the income side of things. The expenses and the red tape has gone up much more than the investors' income. So much so that if someone's looking to invest in Australian real estate now with a 10% deposit, the evidence tells us that the traditional, you know, whatever one wants to cash flow a positive property does not exist unless you're making a very compromised asset selection decision. The new norm for someone buying a property today with a 10% deposit is an annual shortfall of between $15,000 and $20,000 per year.

And if you're buying in expensive markets like Sydney, Melbourne, or Canberra, it's $30,000 to $40,000 shortfall. That's it. These aren't big fat cats that are, you know, these are your everyday Aussies on everyday Aussie incomes. And as I said, the rents are going up and people are sort of criticising and saying, you know, it's the investor's fault for putting rents up.

But like everything in life, if there is more demand and supply available, people have to pay more for what's left. and if you want the prices to come down well you need to put more supply into the market and create more competition they're only going up because there is no there is no competition spot on now we're going to bring up an excellent slide that really summarizes the property investor cash flows right across the country but while we're taking that in what are the major drivers of increased holding costs as you say it yeah and look um before i answer that but the graphic there summarizing your people of australia's 20 larger cities obviously our eight capital cities are

among that there are only six out of their 20 larger cities where the annual cash flow shortfall if you're buying a property now is less than ten thousand dollars none of a positive cash flow but there are only six that are less than ten uh they are perth darwin townsville cairns mckay and Toowoomba. Everything else in Australia will cost a lot more than $10,000. The expenses, the standard insurance premium has probably gone up by about $1,000 per annum over the last couple of years. And insurance companies in some parts of the country, frankly,

have just taken the piss. Now, that doesn't just extend to investors. That's owner-occupiers and everybody. With natural disasters, it makes it very easy for the insurance companies to say, hey, we've got to charge you more. but about a thousand bucks more as it's costing investor council rates um just maybe city councils jack those up but let's say on average they've gone up by five hundred dollars per week repairs and maintenance all the materials and labor i'm going to guess that those costs have gone up by

about 25 percent across the board in the last 12 18 months land tax that varies from state to state and investor to investor but they haven't gone down mate they've got they've gone up yeah um and the biggest expense to any investor will always be their annual interest bill which is interesting if it depends because that depends on the size of your mortgage but also when did you buy the property because when you bought the property determines the price that of the value of the debt that you purchased compared to if you're buying now so if you if you owned a property and say um let's let's get a 500 grand loan for an investor somewhere in australia um in 2019 you were paying about three and a half percent which is about a seventeen and a half thousand dollar

interest expense and your property would have been roughly cash flow neutral in 2019 yeah then rates dropped they started dropping before covid and then they continued to drop when covid arrived so let's look at 2021 that same five hundred thousand dollar mortgage your interest rate was probably two percent so your interest bill was probably about 10 grand and you would have been cashflow positive by about $5,000 per annum. But as of May last year through till now, interest rates have gone up nine times.

Your interest rate now is probably 4.5%. So your annual expense is now 22.5%. What was a cashflow neutral property in 2019 is probably a cashflow shortfall of seven grand. That's if you bought the property back then. If you're buying that same property now, it could be $20,000 or more shortfall. Yeah, very good point.

If you look at the combination of those things, one of the other things that's really driving increased expenses as each of the states doubles down on the tenancy legislation, the level of compliance that's now being imposed on landlords and the capital upgrades they're needing to make to the properties just to tick the box is also adding pretty significant costs. So certainly some pressures there. then if we sort of circle around that then, Simon,

what's the solution to easing rental pressures as you see it? Well, let's go back to one of the earlier comments I made in this interview. 96% of our total rental pool in Australia are owned by the investors and it will always be that way. Anyone who thinks governments are going to find a big bucket of cash, particularly in a climate when they've got a heap of debt and they're looking to increase taxes to pay the end of debt, look, we can't expect any level of government all of a sudden

you know fund all these extra rental properties right so if we want to take pressure off the rental market if we want to um stop rents going through the roof if we want to stop someone uh you know not being able to rent a home and never to move into a car or a garage or a spare bedroom we need more rental supply so the focus on any change needs to be on how do we get more supply yeah you don't get more supply by smoking green weed and saying we need to cap rent investing is a discretion reaction it's already a very restricted environment for those who care about their financial future to operate in you want to restrict them further by saying oh we're going to limit your ability to earn an income i say that to anyone so that to any business oh wait

you know you can keep taking all the risks and you can keep doing the hard work but where you You know, you can't earn any more income. They're going to say, well, close the door. So I'm going to maybe say what you can do. These are what you can't do. And if we just do that, we'll get more rental supply in time. We've got 700,000 extra people coming from overseas in the next 12 months. Like, people need to take this seriously.

We've already got tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of existing Australians who can't find rental accommodation. we're letting extra 700 000 um people in so we don't propose to increase land tax on investors we don't propose to bring in more legislation to make life harder for investors we don't propose to say a bushy one of your investment properties is part of the holiday letting poor which is supporting uh the tourism sector so that when someone's going on holiday they got you know places to pick from and supporting jobs for people who work in restaurants and hotels we don't say to bushy hey mate you can't do that anymore or or you can but we're going to tax you because you're

doing that right so you're just going to up your bum so we need to stop focusing on how can we hit these people who have the capacity and the motivation to provide more rental accommodation it's not red carpet stuff investors don't need red carpets thrown out but you've got to remove the group that's been put there and the dialogue needs to change the people who've made these changes not only have they made the change but they are the ones with the angry voices saying to the tenants yeah these people are grubs they're providing homes for eight million people so support those people who provide those homes and in time they'll provide more talk nicely about them put them up on a pedestal as role models discipline goal setters financial independence

they're aspiring citizens 100% agree and instead of disincentivizing and driving them out that if we're serious about increasing the supply we actually need to start incentivizing because the governments aren't putting their hands in the pocket to build anymore yes they've come up with a couple of schemes that are relying on old old programs that are going to add a drop in the buck up but they they certainly need to really embrace investors as a solution to the exercise and start uh making it easy for them so i look totally agree uh can you uh sort of put some color around the exercise in relation to investor cash flows can you share a couple of case studies uh across a couple of locations in recent times that brings that to the fore something i prepared

earlier for you bushy as i say in the cooking shows um so what we've done is a case study comparing our oldest capital city, which is obviously Sydney, with our oldest or second oldest, a bit debatable, but region, which is Launceston. So let's imagine that we were that stereotypical property investor

and we won the clock back to 2019. We had a 10% deposit and we're looking to buy a property and we were tossing up between Launceston and Parramatta, which is middle ring Sydney. So Parramatta first. In 2019, that standard property would have had a cashflow shortfall

of $11,500. Over the following years, rent's gone up by $20 per week. But with the recent interest rate increases, that same property now, if you bought it in 2019, now has a shortfall of $27,000 per year. That Parramatta property has enjoyed spectacular growth, 55% capital growth over that period of time. Launceston, when you purchased that property back then,

it would have been cash flow neutral. The rent has increased by $110 per week compared to Parramatta's $20 per week. Yes, interest rates have gone up in Launceston, Parramatta, everywhere else in Australia. So instead of being a neutral property, it's cash flow shortfall now of $1,000 compared to $27,000 in Parramatta.

And the capital growth, for those who believe their own bullshit that regions don't grow in capital cities, Well, Launceston's enjoyed 73% capital growth. Sydney's enjoyed 55%. Now, the skeptic will be listening to this going, yeah, but 55% of our home in Parramatta has greater growth than 73% of our home in Launceston. True.

If you could have afforded a million dollars to buy the Parramatta home, you still should have invested a million dollars somewhere else, right? In Launceston, you could have bought three properties for that. Now, I'm a big advocate, don't put all your eggs in the one basket. So I would have bought, and not only would I, I did, one in Launceston, one in somewhere else, one in somewhere else that had good outlook.

So I would have got the 70% capital growth compared to 55%. But most importantly, and the topic of this interview, my cash flow. Instead of being that paramount investor that I've now got to find 27 grand every year, I've got a cash flow neutral portfolio that's grown by more than paramount anyway. Yeah, it's always about location. there's no question about it. So given this whole context then, Simon, what are your best suggested approaches to creating sustainable cash flows and holding cost affordability for investors moving forward? Well, that case study is probably a good example of how I do it personally, how I encourage every property investor to do it. So firstly, disregard where you live because

you're not buying the home for you to live in. Consider 100% of your options. So what that means and how I do that is the 400 townships, which includes the eight capital cities in this huge country, they're the equivalent of companies on my stock exchange. Yeah. It doesn't matter who I bank with. If I'm a share investor,

it doesn't matter who I bank with. It doesn't mean I need to buy shares in that bank. I look at all the companies in the stock exchange. So for a property investor, disregard where you live. In fact, if you are an owner-occupier, I would suggest the first place to eliminate from your selection criteria is your hometown

because you're just putting all your eggs in one basket. So that's sustainability number one. Yeah. So don't put too much capital into any one asset. In this current climate, I have an upper ceiling on any property that I'd either buy for myself or propertyology clients. No more than 750 grand. Most properties we buy are somewhere between $550,000 and $650,000 in different parts of Australia. On that, deliberately spread your capital across different towns and cities in different states.

don't just throw a dart at a board and say that's different to where i own at the moment but where you're on at the moment is is where you should not be looking to buy next um and build that diversification in your property portfolio just as the really astute share investor has um stocks in different companies in a different industry sectors only ever buy detached houses probably now more than ever because people are more acutely aware of cash flow um they that they will be leaning towards taking shortcuts. They might not realise the shortcut and go, I can't afford a house

in that city, but I can afford to buy the apartment. Or the cash flow isn't as severe to buy the apartment as if I bought the house. We've got 20 years of evidence. Apartments do grow, but they're flat out by growing half the rate of

the detached house. Interest-only loans for investments and pay down the principal off the non-deductible family home as aggressively as you can so you're still paying down debt but you're capping um uh the interest that you're paying which is good for your cash flow from investment purposes that's my i guess bag of goodies for investing in a safe way yeah i love it mate uh some uh time-honored principles there that again uh people sort of get uh lost in the

forest uh you start applying those things uh good quality areas with a standalone detached home then with all the gross drivers you're likely to really put yourself in the right position and minimise the cash flow at the same time so look as always Simon

I want to thank you for these eye-opening insights and as always thanks again for sharing your words of wisdom on the show today always a pleasure thanks Simon

well as is plain for all to see hard-working mum and dad investors like you and I continue to carry the can and take the hits as our properties interestingly

cost us more to hold every year and it's clear that continually increasing holding costs combined with an environment where all levels of government are unfortunately unsupportive and are actually disincentivising property investors and continue to make it harder for us all the time when they actually need to be doing the reverse in order to start bridging the escalating housing shortage gap which is actually prolonging the rental pain for tenants. So if you want to learn more from Simon and the Propertyology National

Buyers Agents team. On this or many other hot property topics, check out and subscribe on propertyology.com.au. Keep watching Realty Talk, your property hub's go-to place for all things property. Successful property investment is a game of finance. Do you have the right team and the right game plan? Realty Talk is brought to you by KnowHow Property. More than mortgage brokers, Bushy Martin and his team of investment architects set you up with a sustainable strategy structured to lower your costs, tax, risk and stress while increasing your capacity for growth. KnowHow has helped over 1,900 homeowners and investors secure more than $800 million in property wealth. So get set to live more, work less and live your legacy. Want to know how to invest in your freedom? Visit knowhowproperty.com.au.

For years now, news headlines have been dominated by stories about housing unaffordability and the rental crisis. While at the same time, mum and dad property investors who carry the burden of providing the bulk of rental housing in Australia are increasingly struggling financially as interest rates rise and cost and compliance continue to escalate. Now, most of this has been blamed on the current and growing national housing shortage, as hundreds of thousands of new migrants flood into the country, while the constant game of finger pointing between all levels of government and the private sector continues. But nothing changes. So it's clear that the current housing system is well and truly broken. But is it all just about the housing shortage in terms of numbers?

Or is there more to play here? Well, today's special guest has uncovered that it's more about a housing market mismatch. So to reveal what this all means and the opportunities that this creates, we're joined by property expert, educator, author, and changemaker, Ian Ugarte from Practical Property Investment, who wears many property hats as founder of the Australian Housing Initiative and Invita Co-Living. So welcome to Realty Talk, Ian. Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me. Now, Brayden, it's a really good topic that you're focusing your energy on. So to sort of get stuck straight into that, what is the mismatch in the housing marketplace? And more importantly, what's caused it?

Well, it starts back in 1881. And the Australian household size was, so the actual house itself was average size was 35 square metres. And in that property, there was 5.5 people. We go to 1960, an 85-square-metre house, average size, most of them built by a guy called, I don't know if you've ever heard of him, LJ Hooker, two-bedroom, one-bathroom, who had to go become a real estate agent because no one would sell his properties because they were slightly different.

In that property, there's 3.8 people. And then we fast-forward again to 2011. We build the largest houses in the world at 246 square metres with 2.5 people in them. And we build even larger now. And we've reclaimed the biggest houses in the world in Australia again. We've now got 2.38 people in each house. And this started to alarm me a little bit.

So the mismatch that happened was that we've got these larger houses with the smaller amount of families living in them. So effectively, the mismatch is we've got four bedroom houses with the majority of the people needing um you know a studio one bedroom or two bedroom home and you know australia's not ready for units as far as you know living in them they want grass between the toes yeah this is backed by census data so if i take you to census data we go back and we have a look at it um you know in 2011 to 2016 so those five years when we talk about the new homes that were built in that five-year period 74% of them were three four and five bedroom houses the majority of them are four

bedrooms at the same time 51% of the new households created were singles and couples so I'll explain that this home used to have six people in it my four daughters and my ex-wife we split up she's now got her own household with one of the daughters and technically two of the daughters one of the goes between the two yep so really a a double household over there one daughter's moved out with her boyfriend so that's another household um and one of my daughters lives on her own so we've out of the one household four households were created so 51 and singles couples well you go okay half the people need smaller homes yet three quarters of the homes being built are too big and that was 2011 to 2016 and someone might say oh but that was just that five years

Well, 2016 to 21, 82% of all new houses built are likely four bedrooms, three, four or five bedroom homes. And it went from 51% to 70% singles and couples. So now we've got the majority, 80% of the houses being built, three, four and five bedrooms and the majority, 7% of people not needing those homes. So the greatest mismatch that we've had in Australia is that we've got these large homes for people that have no choice but to rent and live in them, which is quite costly when you're a single and couple

and your only choice is the three or four or five bedroom house. It's a pretty expensive rental. Yeah, 100%. And at the same time, investors who are providing that stock are suffering because the sort of yields they're getting on the properties given that exercise aren't working well for them either. So if we're bringing those two together then, Ian,

what solutions do you see to this dilemma? well you know when i first started talking about um this issue of the mismatch uh in 2011 10 11 the amount of empty bedrooms um and this is uh through someone else's um uh research the amount of empty bedrooms in australia at that point in time were 12 million empty bedrooms every night and um you think about people saying there's an affordability issue we actually don't have an affordable issue we have a a wrong usage issue that the purpose of those properties not being correct um not being correctly so we've now got um you know 12 years down the track we've now got 30 and a half million empty bedrooms in australia so every night we all go to bed and we've got a

problem so the solution to this is saying because whenever someone says there's affordability issue in housing um everyone says well the government should build more housing for social um for social you know housing and and they just don't have the money right and the the solution to this is to actually use the investors that created this unaffordable marketplace because um the government put negative gearing in place and there's nothing better to say to an australian that if you want to pay less tax how about you go out and lose some money to do that um so they created this marketplace where they created property to be a commodity so if we could use the same people to convert it then you know back to an affordability option we're good we've

got empty bedrooms in investor properties all over the country so if you look at it and say well how can I make this better for the community and also for myself as an investor we can look at policies that are unused and unknown across the property across the industry of Australia when it comes to property i myself when i first started talking about this got shouted down as um as a guy that was going to fail that um you know was going to have uh pedophiles uh drug dealers criminals you know low socio people living in the properties that i was creating and all of a sudden in the last couple years all of a sudden co-living has become the buzzword for an investor that owns residential property to get a return and with lying with rising interest rates um we can still

maintain positive cash flow whilst everyone else is actually negative cash flow and hurting yeah yeah and and the the other big exercise there that i say given the number of split families and and particularly uh older single females that end up on the wrong side of the uh of the street late in life, the option that you're suggesting there with the co-living type arrangements is a great fit for them, I would have thought. Yeah, absolutely. And the biggest growing demographic of homelessness in the country right now is a 55 plus single female. And it's not something that I was aware of until we started producing these properties. And then the research was there. And they're women that looked after house and home for the last 20 or 30 years.

They get to the point where the kids are off at university and left home. And she looks across at him and he looks at her and they go this is just not working she actually despises him because of um you know having lost the last 20 or 30 years so he waves a little tiny amount of cash in front of her and she just wants to out she signs the settlement she goes she might have a hundred thousand dollars she goes out and finds out that she can't get a job because she's unqualified the most qualified people in this country who um timetabled financed looked after house and home looked after kids like everything that they had to do and yet they can't get a job because they don't have a qualification they don't have any super because obviously during those last however

many years they weren't in a job and then they can't afford where they want to live and so we start providing this and they started knocking on the door and it's actually our anchor resident it's the person we put in first and we build the co-living home around them they become the adopted mother grandmother and um but there is bushy there is one rule that we learned early on don't put two in the same house because it's a nightmare yes i can well imagine well it's sort of looking looking at that whole exercise then uh and what opportunities is this creating well the opportunity here is that it creates an outcome for everyone and the first one is these 55 year old women, the 20 to 35 year old professionals working their way up the ladder or the couple

that's professional and wants to buy their home the next three to five years, what co-living does is creates an opportunity for them to rent a component of the house and save one third to one half of their weekly rent. So you use these, the opportunity is that these properties can be converted legally across almost every state without needing to go to council and getting private certification. And you create what I call micro apartments. So every person has their own bedroom, their own sitting area, their own kitchenette, their own bathroom, and they share the common kitchen. No one ever goes there because they can do it in their room. And they share the laundry, which they go to twice a week. So effectively, you're creating studios within

the house legally, and that saves them money. But a property owner investor that was previously getting $600 a week is now getting double the income at least. So 1400 1500 for the same property that was converted from a four bedroom house into four micro apartments, or you could do five or six to get more cash flow. The outcome then is that we're now freeing up, we take one front door and turn them into four front doors, which means we've now freed up three family homes somewhere else that these singles and couples were renting, so that families can actually now have an opportunity. Now, I am by default creating a marketplace of oversupply to see if we can stagnate the rental cycle and create something that's actually going to be a benefit to everyone.

Now, the last win is that we've got government that have got one third of the housing waiting list is what we used to call the lower end of the middle class. They're on a housing waiting list and they shouldn't be there. And we've created accommodation. Now, if every investor that owns two properties in australia just converted one of their property sorry if if out of the two million um people that own two properties in australia yeah we only converted one million of them so half of them um and we then said well actually they don't even let's halve it again we could produce two million new front doors in six to nine months um especially if the government put some push behind it to say hey we'll take your land tax off you as i said

who, like, hates paying back to all of Australians, all of a sudden you'll have all of these investors creating the right amount of accommodation that'll fix the problem in Australia. Mate, why is it that the thing that's most obvious is the thing that's so often overlooked? It never staggers to amaze me, mate. And I really want to thank you for your very refreshing

and eye-opening insights into this, Ian, and really want to thank you for your time on the show today. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Ian. Well, as you can see in here, there's much more to the housing affordability and housing supply crisis than meets the eye. So if you're inspired to challenge old, out-of-date and broken conventional wisdom and become a property disruptor to create true win-win-win outcomes for everyone involved,

reach out to Ian and his team at ianogarte.com.au. That's U-G-A-R-T-E-O-G-A-R-T-E.com.au. Stay with us for more on your property hub's go-to place for all things property here on Realty Talk. and that's a wrap for this week's show another big thanks to our guests simon presley and ian ugarte and before we go make sure you don't miss another episode of your trusted voice for all things property by subscribing to the property hub on your favorite podcast player now where you'll also get the get invested podcast delivered to you each and every week thanks again to realty.com.au bmt tax depreciation apiro marketing dm media and southern cross hot stereo for their ongoing support i'm bushy martin from know how property finance and along with kevin turner and

the entire property hub realty talk team we thank you for getting invested in yourself by investing in us and we look forward to seeing you again next week miss something in this week's show or Want to catch up on past shows? Do it anytime at realty.com.au where we connect buyers, sellers and agents differently.