Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Realty Talk: Qld Rental Crap + Multiple Offer Manipulation

Episode Date: April 2, 2023

We interrupt normal programming this week to focus on the latest potential fiasco that has surfaced in the sunshine state flowing from the Qld Premiers ‘brain fart’ suggesting the introduction of rental caps. The Chair of PIPA Nicola McDougall joins Bushy to unpack the disastrous impacts that imposing rental caps would have on rental supply, tenants and the state economy generally, resulting in an entertaining Freudian slip that coins the appropriate term ‘rental crap’  And to conclude the show, Kevin Turner continues our special series on the art of negotiation with Buyers Agent Cate Bakos who reveals the different methods agents use with multiple offers.  RealtyTalk is part of the Property Hub podcast channel, your home for property investment insights, inspiration, and stories from Australia’s top property experts, investors, leaders, and analysts. Subscribe now to get every RealtyTalk episode delivered to you each week for free, and also get full access to Get Invested, the leading podcast for Australians who want to unlock their full ‘self, health, and wealth’ potential and get inspired by the stories of investors, founders, and entrepreneurs. Subscribe to RealtyTalk on the Property Hub channel: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Email Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast network DM Media. Business and partnership enquiries: [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to Realty Talk, the show that brings together the country's most authoritative and respected property experts. Follow us on all the socials and subscribe for updates and exclusive offers. Realty Talk is powered by realty.com.au, connecting buyers, sellers and agents differently. Hi and welcome to this week's Realty Talk show. Your property hubs go to home for property investment insights, inspirational stories from Australia's top property experts, leaders and analysts. I'm your anchor, Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property Finance. And this week, we break with show tradition to focus on the latest potential fiasco that surfaced in the

Sunshine State, flowing from the Queensland Premier's recent brain fart suggestion of introducing rental caps. To balance the discussion, the Chair of PIPA, Nicola McDool, joins us to unpack the potentially disastrous impacts that would flow from imposing rental caps and their negative ripple effects on rental supply, tenants and the state economy generally, leading to a quite entertaining Freudian slip that coins the rather appropriate term rental crap. So make sure you listen out for that. And to round out the show, Kevin Turner continues our special series on the art of negotiation with Buyers Agent Kane Bakos, who reveals the different methods that agents use with

multiple offers. Now, before we get underway, if you're enjoying the show, I want to thank you again for tuning in, and I need to ask you another very small favour that will have a massive impact because we really need your help in order to continue to attract great guests and enjoy great conversations. Can I ask you to hit the Like button and the Subscribe button

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just for making the effort. We've got some very engaging and quite entertaining info to share so let's get underway. Property deductions can save you thousands of dollars each year. To make sure you maximise deductions you need to work with the most experienced quantity surveyor in the country. BMT Tax Depreciation is the leading specialist in the industry. They've completed over 700 000 tax deduction schedules for residential investment and commercial properties australia wide bmt guarantee to find double your fee in the first full financial year deductions call bmt on 1-300-728-726 today for an obligation free quote now it doesn't matter where you turn it feels like everyone and everything is dominated by

doomsday discussions on the national housing crisis housing affordability and the rental crisis. And while it may appear to be a sudden, unexpected phenomena, for many of us who've been in the industry for a long time, our current housing woes have been decades in the making for a lack of property strategic planning and proactive action by the public sector at all levels. But unfortunately, in our myopic, instant iPhone reactive world that's dominated by short term, ill-conceived, knee-jerk reactions that lack any long-term vision, where the squeaky wheels are the ones that get all of the oil, our politicians appear to be hell-bent on coming up with overnight band-aid solutions that are all aimed at convenient scapegoats. And in the property

arena, the punching bag is always the silent majority of hard-working mum and dad property investors. Recent cases in point include the Queensland Greens' harebrained rental freeze proposal, a failed attempt to increase land tax in Queensland for interstate investors, moved by some councils to restrict the number of nights an investor can rent out their property as a short-term Airbnb, and the federal government's latest damaging foray into the suggestion of taxing unrealised gains on superannuation accounts above a certain level. But it doesn't end there because the latest poorly conceived and naive attempt at reactive policy on the fly that's likely to make things far worse for everyone rather than better is the Queensland government's

latest move to impose residential rental caps on landlords that's likely to have flow-on effects across the country if this mad proposal actually gets up. So to put some balance back into the discussion on this quite critical issue, we're joined by the Chair of the Property Investment Professionals of Australia, Nicola McDougall. So welcome back to Realty Talk, Nicola. Thanks, Bushy, for having me in what has been quite a busy week. I could well imagine. It's never a dull day in the property game, as we both know. But Nicola, on this particular subject, to sort of set the context, if we can, what's the sort of current situation in relation to the treatment of rent variations in Queensland and other parts of the

country well i think i mean there is some divergence you know in the in the legislation depending on which state and territory you're in i mean but generally speaking um there's a few territories and states that already have uh limits on the number of times that you can increase rent per year and that's generally about 12 months i will i will preference with all of this though with the fact that any any type of rent increases or things like that have to be in the agreement to start off with so you know generally you know it's not just sort of turning up one day and you're finding out about it for the first time um and obviously there's notice periods and things like that um so in plenty of other states um that is already the situation certainly um i think south

australia new south wales and various other places um queensland western australia i believe you know we've probably been the outliers on here in queensland where um there hadn't been a limit on the number of times, technically speaking. I mean, all in Queensland, you can't do it more than six months. So that was the situation here in Queensland. Obviously last week we heard from the Queensland Premier, Anastasia Palaszczuk.

I love the term thought bubble. A lot of people are calling a thought bubble because it kind of took us all by surprise last week where she suggested that the state government was considering uh rent caps but what was really concerning at the point at that point was that she didn't actually divulge what that meant and obviously rent caps can mean a number of things including obviously rental controls and freezes on the amount that you can actually increase um rent but since then we've learned seemingly that's that that's not what she meant um and that they

were only considering the actual you know reduction of um the number of times that you could increase um a rent and a tenancy okay well some would say yeah thought bubble lovers would say brand brain fart i think uh putting it fairly crudely yeah in the context of it but uh and i know it's still uh up in the air and in abeyance uh but you know in addition to the the sort of fairly limp-wristed uh retreat i guess in terms of just looking at the uh once a year increase yes uh What else was thrown up in the air in relation to the Queensland government proposal around the whole rental situation? Well, I think, you know, obviously, you know, Queensland's been classified as the second worst place for renters in the country, the second least affordable place in the country. As we've talked about several times before, Bushy, this didn't happen overnight, has been building for years and years and years.

look next year you could easily say it's been building for 10 years uh since the APRA changes first started happening back then um clearly we had a reduction in the number of investors and in Queensland of course we have a higher percentage of renters and a higher you know a lot of interstate investors as well historically speaking um so what we saw was you know up until COVID falling number of investors who are being active in the market that's reducing supply then obviously, as we saw in 2021, and in our wonderful PIPA investor sentiment survey last year, saw that a staggering 45% of investors had sold at least one property in the previous two years to make the most of rising market conditions. Because pre-COVID, as someone who has their whole

portfolio in the southeast corner, it was very flat. It was woeful. And rents were going backwards. no one seems to talk about that you know I had a property where when I first bought it the rent was $465,000 and then just it only recently got to $500,000 and I've had that property for 10 years but during the ensuing years at one point it was $380,000 so it went backwards and it's only now 10% higher than what it was 10 years ago but anyway that's just me sort of saying people need to look at what the history of of the situation certainly here in Queensland has been for investors because it has been pretty dire and the reason why it was pretty dire was that our economy our state economy under which the current state premier has been the premier for

the entire time was underwhelming and underperforming and if you have that well then the property market generally is is the same so that was what happened we've seen you know a huge volume of investors exit the market, a huge volume of investors prior to COVID not entering the market. And then what we've had again since rates started rising in May is another huge volume of investors not being able to get into the market. So there you go. What do they call it in the Olympics? Three-peat of woe. So that's where we're at. And there is a simple case of not enough supply for the demand that we have, which has sent rents skyrocketing. And it must be said that rents started strengthening before rates started increasing,

and they started strengthening a lot well before the floodgates of overseas migrants came in as well. Of course. Now, we may have averted the alternate, but in the unlikely case that there's a rearguard action and some sort of rental crap, rental cap. That's probably the right word, actually, but it wasn't actually. Can we leave that in? Bit of a Freudian slip there. What impacts will that have across the board, including for investors, property values, rental supply

and renters themselves, as you say? So it certainly sounds likely after having another housing affordability powwow today. Again, Pippa didn't get a seat at that table, which is somewhat perplexing. However, it does certainly sound like the Queensland government is bringing in those rental caps, so maximum increase of once a year. I don't know about you, Bushy, but I know about me as a long-term investor, I have never

put my rent up more than once a year. So it does seem like populist politics, a bit of tokenism, oh, we have to be seen to be doing something. um look in a way it's kind of a little absurd because obviously we have seen um you know a staggering increase in expenses for investors uh pipper and picker actually the property investors council of australia recently did a survey together which we released to the media yesterday which really showed you know that that increasing financial impost on investors some of them are really struggling with their mortgage repayments while still being fair and

reasonable to their tenants because they want a long-term tenant, right? So what we'll see, I suppose, when this comes in, and I don't know what date that would be, if you're only allowed to put the rent up once per year, well, it will probably, if people have to put it up by a certain amount to cover their massive increase in costs, that might be a big jump. And it's not being greedy. It's about the fact that my mortgage has doubled in the last 12 months and I haven't actually put up my i might have only put up my my rent on my properties by a small amount or whatever and if you've only got one shot at it um it's actually going to make renting more of unaffordable uh for the next year um so there's that obviously look from a policy point of view

other states and territories already do it um as an industry we can we can live with that right it's the lesser of two evils obviously last week when there was that that thought bubble or brain fart as you said we were concerned that she was going to actually bring in either rent freezers or some type of caps on the amount of rent that you could actually increase on your property such as there is an ACT already which is kind of absurd really because you think about it you know you You can't put the rent up more than 10% above CPI. And, you know, it's very rare that you would even be in that ballpark anyway. So in regards to that, that was clearly, you know,

that would be decimating to the investment market, to be terrible for renters, supply would dwindle, rents would soar. So thankfully that appears to be off the table at the moment. And from what I've learned over the last couple of days, It does sound like that the government is really prioritising trying to increase the supply of properties out there. Clearly, none of this happens overnight. We're talking about many years down the road. But at least they're finally, look, they'll never own up to the fact that part of the reason for the problem is that they have, you know, totally reduced the volume of social housing that they provide to their citizens.

I don't know what the numbers are. I think it used to be about 15% of all housing stock and it went down to 3% because us private investors, we were doing the heavy lifting whilst also getting slugged with taxes and various things all the time as well. So whilst it'll be a cold day in hell or a hot day in hell, whichever the way it goes, when they go, oh, sorry, we should have been building more social housing for our residents, they'll never say that. But at least they are actually, by the sound of it, doing something about addressing that massive shortfall that we have, because private investors can't, it's not our role to provide social housing, but it has been, it's become our role because the government's just stopped doing it. Absolutely right. So in a perfect world then, what are your thoughts on alternatives to improve the current broken system for both renters and landlords alike, as you say? Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, as an investor myself, as the chair of the property investment professionals of Australia, we should be encouraging Australians to invest in residential property, not only for their own ability to improve their financial future and hopefully not have to rely on the pension in retirement. but at the end of the day we all know the stats the vast majority of investors only own one property and a few more own two um at the moment you know many of them are not buying uh because they

physically can't get the finance they're not buying because perhaps they bought a really crap first investment property because they used the they you know went out on their own or perhaps they got advice from someone who didn't actually know what they were talking about um so i would like to see some type of incentives which in whatever way they might look to help more investors back into the market i think also what's happened over the last few years and you know bushy i've been on the board now for 10 years or 10 years next year um yeah i think about all of the levers that have been pulled in that time all the policy changes that have come and go come and gone in that time some have stuck some have been axed um negative gearing capital gains

tax discount always on the chopping board always a political football then we have you know APRA changes and then you know uh the stupid and you know the interstate and Queensland land tax last year um changing rental tenancy legislation around the country where investors are feeling like they've lost control of their assets all of these things are happening all that honestly it makes your head spin yep and when you're thinking about buying a property with a long-term mindset because that's what you need to do there's so much ammunition being thrown at you all the time that i can understand why so many investors are either a hesitant to get into the market at all or b are actually keen to exit it because it's hardly the domain of like you know we talk about buying

properly and it's a it's a stable performer and it is it is over the long term but the system that it operates in isn't and it's it's just this it's just too much and i think everybody is just getting over it you know just to use that term everyone's just a bit over it and um when you see just you know as i said all of these policies come and go and you know it's like getting the rug pulled out from you and i feel this at the moment obviously i'm quite passionate about it today because um the last week this is generally what what i've been working on um and it just has a sense of deja vu not just about the land tax last year but about negative about all the campaigns that i've been involved in during my career including at the reoq so we're talking about 17 years

um and i just can't feel kind of tired yeah away from it of it you know i just and i just kind of oh no not again like not this shit again because that's what it's like and because it's all they're doing is going oh well this will win us some few few voters and they're not worrying about the impact that it has um whether it ends up becoming true or not or they that you know it becomes actual law or not they're not worrying about or they don't care about the impact that it has on investors or even on renters and on homeowners they don't care you know and i just feel very tired about it all yeah it's a good it's a bit of a bit of a exhausted giggle i suppose but it's how i really feel because you know when we won the land tax when we helped to win the land

tax camp fight last year i said at the time you know to a lot of people i said you know this won't this is not our last not our first rodeo and it won't be our last unfortunately and here we are and it's not even six months since that was repealed. Exactly right. So I guess then, being that a lot of us are war-weary as a consequence of this whole exercise, what can we do individually and collectively to kill off this sort of crazy proposal stuff

arising again in the future? Yeah, I mean, oh, God. I mean, obviously, it's, you know, about, from a professional point of view, from an industry point of view, belonging to your industry associations, not just PIPA, but obviously, you know, maybe your state and territory uh institutes and other aligned industry associations and

collective voices are the ones that can make change and we certainly saw that last year we certainly saw that the negative gearing campaign in the 2019 federal election of which i was happy to be a part of with peter kalesos and the wider industry um so it's about you know um joining your association supporting us supporting us to do our job which is to protect the interests of our members but also to protect consumers because as we as we saw on the four corners show last night you know there's no regulation to really do that as it is um so it's all fair and good to sit back and and kind of let us all fight these fights for you but i would love i mean obviously the pepper is growing you know strength by strength by strength you know our

association is is amazing now and continuing to grow but you know there's still a huge cohort of people out there that are riding on our coattails i suppose and people like yourself and me and many many people that i'm standing on the shoulders of from years before who have put in time and effort and our membership fees i mean even myself on the board all the board of volunteers um you know we're all doing this for the betterment of everybody in the industry so that and i think well that's the important thing to say um regardless of the outcome of today um we have to get ready uh because you know this won't be the last rodeo but we do have obviously federal election not not too far away um and we do need to have the collective voice of across our whole

industry um to be able to represent our industry more thoroughly um and also to be able to provide consumer protections, because if we have more people who are members of PIPA, then consumers are going to use someone who actually is, you know, licensed, experienced, qualified to give them tailored and, you know, independent advice. Yeah, no, extremely well said. And I really want to thank you for coming on. I know how busy you are. And it's great for you to highlight and balance the discussion on these really important issues,

Nicola. And thanks again for your valuable time on the show today. Thanks, Bushy. Thanks, Nicola. Well, as you can hear yet again, villainising and penalising hard-working mum and dad investors as the cause of all of our business housing issues is a best misinformed and a worst downright dangerous. For those inside and outside of government that have been calling for such crazy schemes as rental caps, you need to answer this really key question. How is reducing investor demand and the resulting reduction in rental housing supply going to improve the situation for Queenslanders and beyond that if it goes further? because there's no doubt that rental caps will further reduce the number of rental properties

as many current investors will bail and potential investors won't buy property in Queensland because they can't trust the state government to allow a free market to operate. And this in turn is going to mean that people will stop moving to the Sunshine State because there's nowhere to live, which means businesses won't be able to attract staff. And this will all mean that the Queensland economy and locals will be the biggest losers. So why cut off your nose to spite your face? It almost feels as though ill-informed, short-sighted governments have become like the tadpoles of cannibalistic cane toads who turn on and eat each other in an attempt to survive, only to make things worse and put the entire survival of the ecosystem at risk.

Instead, it's time for governments at all levels to stop the ill-informed, scapegoating and reactive band-aiding. Instead, step up, show some real leadership and long-term vision, and take some real responsibility by taking the action required to increase the supply of housing. And this includes incentivising rather than penalising mum and dad investors by embracing them as their best friends and stop treating them like their worst enemies. For more on this, have a read of the great articles on pipper.asn.au. Make sure you join the Property Investment Council of Australia or PICCA if you're an investor to ensure your voice gets heard. And if you're a property professional, make sure you become a PIPA member. And we look

forward to seeing you at the very first inaugural PIPA conference on Friday the 22nd of September in Sydney. And I need to remind you straight up that tickets are limited, so make sure you secure your ticket now. Stay with us for more on your Property Hub's go-to place for all things property here on Realty Talk. Successful property investment is a game of finance. Do you have the right team and the right game plan? Realty Talk is brought to you by Know How Property. More than mortgage brokers, Bushy Martin and his team of investment architects set you up with a sustainable strategy structured to lower your costs, tax, risk and stress while increasing your capacity for growth. KnowHow has helped over 1,900 homeowners and investors secure more than

$800 million in property wealth. So get set to live more, work less and live your legacy. Want to know how to invest in your freedom? Visit knowhowproperty.com.au. as one of australia's most outstanding buyers agents and bakos has a wealth of knowledge and experience when it comes to helping families secure their dream home or the perfect property to add to their investment portfolio so who better to talk to about successful negotiation and this time i talked to kate about the different methods agents use with multiple offers that's up next property depreciation is the natural wear and tear of a building and its assets property investors can claim depreciation as a tax deduction each financial year depreciation is a non-cash

deduction this means you don't need to spend any money in order to claim it on average bmt tax depreciation find residential investors almost nine thousand dollars in first full financial year deductions. Call BMT on 1300 728 726 today for an obligation free quote. Oh, it's such a dilemma as a buyer when an agent says to you that you're in competition and there are multiple offers. How do you believe them? Do you believe them? Kate Bakos is my guest. So I'm going to pose that question of you, Kate, because you obviously get that quite often, I would imagine, as a buyer's agent. How do you handle that? It is a tough one because if you're the only buyer, you might be reacting with a fear of missing out. But if you want to try and call the

agent's bluff, you might actually miss out. So I always consider that there's a very high chance of them being honest about multiple buyers or at least another buyer. You've got to really treat it that way, don't you? Otherwise, you will run the risk of it. And I guess the bottom line is just knowing how far you're prepared to go. And at what point are you prepared to put your best foot forward. You're absolutely right. There's a thing called social proof, which is an ability for a buyer to see others fighting for the same property. And that often spurs on buyers to give it their best shot or to stretch themselves. And the absence of social proof can sometimes have them wondering whether they should even be making an offer on a property. So this psychological

barrier can strike many times. But what I always say to people, whether we've got a multi-office situation or whether they're the only person on the property, they need to understand what it's worth to them, how frequently this type of property comes up, because if it's an infrequent property and it's a very special and well-suited property for them, they really need to think about the cost of missing out as well, because if it takes another six months in a moving market, they might regret not putting their best foot forward. But ultimately, knowing your values really helps you face this challenge. So when there is a multi-offer situation, the agent comes to you and says, look, I need to disclose this to you. And they say, my advice is to put your best and final

offer in. In other words, indicating that, you know, if you get beaten, I'm not going to come back to you. Where does that leave you? Well, it leaves a lot of people feeling pretty anxious about the situation because no one wants to win a property by $40,000 or $50,000 and no one wants to miss a property for $1,000. So where is that in between that they're comfortable with? And transparency usually solves that issue. But then you get people saying, oh, I don't like an auction or I don't want a Zoom auction or a boardroom auction. So having the chance to put their best foot forward, it can sometimes go well for someone who's looking at a property that is potentially a little bit better than they thought their budget could afford them when you put everything that

you've got on the table you've got no regrets if it goes your way it can be a fantastic thing and if it doesn't you're not too devastated because you were prepared for it but it's when you've got the budget that could purchase the property or you've even got surplus budget that's where you've got to work out where do I stop and that question where do I stop is a function of what the property's true value is, like I said before, how scarce it is. And also having a look on the market at properties in higher price points, asking yourself at what point, at what level could I be getting a higher quality property? Yeah, my advice to buyers has always been if you're looking at a contract and it has, say, $550,000 on it from you and the agent is indicating that you need to pay more,

you have to ask yourself, if the agent called me tomorrow and told me that this house had sold for $555,000, $5,000 over what I was prepared, how would I feel? And if you feel bad about that, then maybe you should consider paying that. That's a bit of a test as to whether there's any more in me. Yes, that's a really good point, Kevin. And you've also touched on something that I always remind buyers of, and that is round figures. If you're going into this scenario, you need to assume that a lot of other people will be thinking around figures as well. And sometimes just having a little bit of a quirky figure, a tad higher than the round figure. So in this situation, it might've been, you know, $556,000. Or if you're thinking that you're

quite comfortable with the idea of going in at $560,000, you might do $561,000. Always bear in mind when a vendor is sitting with their agent at the end of that opportunity they'll be looking at all of the price points and sometimes they'll just pick the one that was a thousand dollars above another is there a requirement from an agent to well obviously they need to disclose if you're in competition so that you it's not a surprise but is there a requirement for them to get something in writing that they have actually advised the buyer that that's the case that's a good question And some states require that. In Victoria, we sometimes have a document that's accompanied

with the contract stating that the purchaser accepts that they're entering into one of these scenarios where there's multiple buyers. But, no, there's not legislation around that in my state. Yeah, because I think sometimes agents will use that as a bit of a lever with the seller to say, well, look, I've been back to all of these buyers and they've signed this form to say this is their best and final offer. There is nothing left in them at this stage.

So there's a lot of ground to be covered in some of these issues, Kate, isn't it? It's really difficult because I think we need to understand that sometimes buyers will only ever buy one or two houses in their entire life and it can be very, very frightening. Yeah, absolutely, Kevin, you're right. and knowledge is power when you've done your analysis or you're well aware of other properties that have recently sold that compare to the one that you're interested in.

It can really help. Kate, just before we leave this segment, can I just ask you, you know, we touched on it there about agents disclosing to a buyer. What are the different methods they use? Yeah, and it's important to note that agents set the tone here. They write their own rules for how they want to, which method they want to adopt and how they deal with buyers in these situations because auctions are governed by legislation but private sales there's lots of

different ways they can choose to do it and they can switch up and make a change from maybe an expression of interest to something transparent so it is up to the agent how they like to do this but some of the ways that they deal with competitive bias firstly if it's transparent they can do a simulated auction that might be in their boardroom or it could be on zoom where all of the people can see each other and they go up in increments of let's say $500 or $1,000 until one person's left. Other times they may go backwards and forwards on the phone. So they're making phone calls until late in the night until again, one person is left standing. But if they're dealing with buyers who might have different conditions and different settlement dates and

different deposit sizes, that's usually when they do best and highest because best and highest is really at the vendor's discretion they'll be weighing up all of those offers and the terms and the conditions and they'll they'll make a decision for the offer that's most suited to them that's not always the highest offer i want to ask you next time we get together kate about expressions of interest and you know i know that that's a temptation from buyers who want to stick their toe in the water and say well look let's just see if they'd be interested rather than me making an offer just an expression of interest so we'll cover that next time kate bakos is a buyer's agent and my guest on this series of negotiation tips kate thanks for your time

look forward to seeing you next time thank you kevin and that's another wrap for this week's show another special thanks to our guests nicola mcdougall and kate bakos and before we go make sure you don't miss another episode of your trusted voice for all things property by subscribing to the Property Hub and on your favorite podcast player now, where you'll also enjoy the Get Invested podcast delivered to you each and every week. Thanks again to realty.com.au, BMT Tax Depreciation, Appiro Marketing, DM Media, and Southern Crosshouse Stereo for their ongoing support. I'm Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property Finance, and along with Kevin Turner and the entire Property Hub Realty Talk team, we thank you for getting invested in yourself by investing in

us, and we look forward to seeing you again next week. Miss something in this week's show or want to catch up on past shows? Do it anytime at realty.com.au where we connect buyers, sellers and agents differently.