Property Hub - Investment Insights & Inspiration - Realty Talk: The Great Housing Hijack

Episode Date: May 11, 2024

Are you amazed at the constant raft of reactive, poorly thought through solutions to our housing crisis?  Some of which do little to address the underlying causes and in some cases make the situation worse. This week Bushy talks to Dr Cameron Murray, Chief Economist at Fresh Economic Thinking who has recently published his second book, The Great Housing Hijack. The potential to greatly improve the service based world of property for everyone involved, from buyers, sellers, investors, selling agents, buyers agents, property managers is something we explore with Jaquie Scammell as she speaks about balancing human touch with technology. NEW – join our Facebook group, The Property Hub Collective: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1857513011165686 Join the Property Hub community on Substack! Sign up to get Australian property news, opinion, and episodes in your inbox: https://propertyhubau.substack.com/ Subscribe to RealtyTalk on the Property Hub channel: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Email Property Hub is a collaboration between Bushy Martin from KnowHow Property, Kevin Turner from Realty, Andrew Montesi from Apiro Marketing and Apiro Media, and Australia’s largest independent podcast network DM Media. Business and partnership enquiries: [e-mail] omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello once again and welcome to this week's Realty Talk Show. I wonder if you're a bit like me, absolutely amazed at the constant raft of reactive, poorly thought through solutions to our housing crisis. Some of which will do little to address the underlying causes and in some cases make the situation even worse. Well this week Bushy talks to Dr Cameron Murray, who is the Chief Economist at Fresh Economic Thinking, who's recently published his second book. It's called The Great Housing Hijack. So we'll see what he has to say about the crisis. The potential to greatly improve the service-based world of property for everyone involved from buyers, sellers, investors, selling agents, buyers, agents and property managers

is something that we explore with Jackie Scammell as she speaks about balancing human touch with technology. Hey, before we start, I want to thank our supporters and content partners, Realty.com.au, BMT Tax Depreciation, Know How Property Finance, Get Rare Property and Apiro Marketing. And if this is your first time with us, a big welcome. You're going to find us on all podcast players and through the Southern Cross Austereo Network.

If you like the show, make sure you hit the subscribe button and help us to continue to bring you the best guests every week. Don't forget too, you can join the conversation anytime on Facebook at the Property Hub Collective. And we'll be back in just a moment as Bushy kicks off this week's show. Property deductions can save you thousands of dollars each year. To make sure you maximise deductions, you need to work with the most experienced quantity surveyor in the country.

BMT Tax Depreciation is the leading specialist in the industry. They've completed over 700,000 tax deduction schedules for residential investment and commercial properties Australia-wide. BMT guarantee to find double your fee in the first full financial year deductions. Call BMT on 1300 728 726 today for an obligation free quote. Realty Talk and your host, Bushy Martin. Now in recent times it feels like a day doesn't pass without some media mention of our national housing crisis and housing affordability debate. As a result politicians, policy makers and a raft

of self-professed experts who all appear to be pretty good at pointing fingers to deflect blame are coming up with what appears to be a host of quite half-baked short-term reactive band-aid solutions that may appear to treat some of the symptoms but don't seem to get to the underlying cause and may actually be adding to the problem through their unintended consequences. Now two of the recent attempts include Labor's shared equity scheme on one side of the political fence while the Liberal National Party backs their super for housing policy. So what do these policies really mean and how effective will they be in addressing our housing issues? To unpack this and what it means to you we're joined by leading housing commentator Dr Cameron Murray, Chief Economist

at Fresh Economic Thinking, who's recently published his second book, The Great Housing Hijack. So welcome back to Realty Talk, Cameron. Thanks for having me, Bushy. Cameron, another great subject. And I guess just to sort of set the scene, can you start by giving us a bit of a quick Reader's Digest summary on both the shared equity policy along with the super for housing approach? No worries. So shared equity is Labor's policy to help people help first home buyers with the deposit gap so both these policies are essentially identifying one issue or you might say symptom of the current housing situation and i would say that's a combination of um the unequal incomes the unequal the distribution of ownership and

where we are in the cycle and i think that's very um we've increased interest rates recently to make it difficult to buy houses right and so one of the things that means is that first home buyers are really struggling because interest rates are higher prices are still higher so the deposit is high yeah so on labor said well we will buy equity with you um as your deposit for a mortgage so we will be co-owners with you up to 30 for new builds and i think 20 for existing homes for households with below a certain income threshold i think it's around 120 000 and there'll be 10 000 places offered each year yeah um and so that's like a deposit it's like a deposit gap remedy by saying hey i can solve your deposit by i'll take the equity so you just buy less of a house right

and that's what makes it cheaper on the liberal side they're talking about super for housing they're saying well you know people have their own money in their super funds why can't they use that it is as a deposit because their house is a great asset to own just like any other asset in your super account and so they've got a proposal and i don't know what the details are whether they're firmed up but to let people use super for a deposit for a home and they're both targeting the exact same thing um one with an equity stake from the collective and one with a balanced sheet sort of reallocation from super yeah not both addressing that uh deposit gap issue essentially that sort of gets over that access hurdle uh what impacts uh each of them likely to have do you think

on housing conditions in the short medium and long term yeah so they're both attempting to get more people in the market and and the way i describe first home buying is like people in a queue waiting to get old enough to save enough money to get their incomes up so they're ready to buy in a place they want to most first-time buyers could choose a cheaper property or a cheaper location but they choose to wait longer so we've got this queue of people um and the the objective of both is to bring forward some of those first-time buyers out of the queue now before i get into the specific price effects and things like that we already shuffled a bunch of first-time buyers up the queue during COVID when we let people take the super out and had very, very

low mortgage rates, especially those fixed term rates. And so we had 166,000 first-time buyer mortgages in the 2021 financial year. And the average for the five years prior was something around 90,000. So we had nearly double that year. So we're in the bit of a shadow of that, which is why first-time buyers are finding it hard because those who wouldn't have found it hard already bought so the pros and cons of each well i think they're both going to have small small benefits for the people who take them up so we've had shared equity schemes before so in the last 2000s boom in the act they had a thing called the land rent scheme which is like an equity sharing where the government would own the land and you would rent it off them at a discounted rate and you

would buy the house and that's how you'd share the equity like a jv um and that that was okay i think they had around 1600 people take that up altogether but after a few years interest rates fell and everyone bought out their equity state from the government and then the net effect looking back at it 10 years later was well what did that achieve exactly because that person could have bought that house a few years later and they bought it from you so they got a small subsidy for three years but they'd rather own the equity themselves because it's a good investment right if your house is going up you don't want to give away 30 percent of your equity to someone else and so everyone bought out the scheme and it doesn't exist anymore so you know the long and

short of it is yeah 10 000 people might get into housing a little bit earlier and they'll save on rent and they'll get this um benefit okay great it also suggests to me a funny thing because the trick for the government like the sales pitch is it doesn't cost us anything because equity is asset so when we buy the 30 equity we we keep the debt and the asset on that off book balance sheet but then i ask myself if 30 equity is good to own and get no rental income what about 100 equity right you could take 30 equity in 3.3 homes or you could take 100 equity in one home why is one of them better financially than the other and hang on don't you already own 100 equity of all the public housing are you telling me now public housing is a good investment oh you know there's

so it's all about these sort of financial tricks that we have in our mind or these um what i call uneconomic uh accounting concerns that we have in mind when the public sector does something so i think that's it's fine for what it is it's going to bring forward a little bit of buying but because those income thresholds are so tight i don't think it's going to be particularly any price effects anywhere because people who have a household income of 120 000 or below right now they can't really borrow much money and they might just be better off waiting for interest rates to fall the incomes to rise so i think you know very moderate effect on super well yeah again it'll bring forward people who've got a hundred thousand in super but you know can't buy but

how many people are really going to qualify for that mortgage the qualifying rates now are like eight percent or nine percent it's it's really going crazy that's why most buyers today are upgraders or cash buyers yeah and people already took their super out 20 grand out during covid so again i think yeah it might will be nice for some people but to simplify their lives and consolidate their balance sheet by taking out super and for the people who've already bought and have a half million dollar mortgage where they were paying two percent two years ago now they're paying six percent on their mortgage right well if they've got a couple hundred thousand combined in super well they can just pay down and offset that to address the cash flow issue today

and i think that's totally reasonable as well um i don't think any of them are going to radically change the total number of first home buyers it gives you a slight advantage i guess again the first home buyer versus the investor um but i think if we look back in time like the act in 10 years will go oh okay um what was that about what was that huge political argument about um these people would have bought their homes by now anyway um so yeah it's it's a tiny change to a small incentive in a small part of the market where already there are much bigger macroeconomic constraints happening yeah i think the at a sort of micro level uh because there are also price thresholds uh but particularly with the labour policy,

that will probably tend to increase demand in certain locations. So I think there will be pressure at certain price points and it'll drag along some of the properties up towards that level because there'll be a little bit more interest, but it's going to be a short-term mechanism. And I think the other thing that I guess, again, I'm probably showing my age here, Cameron, but the super policy feels a little bit like robbing Peter to pay Paul

because you're taking a short-term gain that's going to potentially impact on the long-term performance of an asset down the track. So I think there's a – I haven't run the numbers on it. Maybe you have. Yeah. Well, I can give you – why don't I give you my take on that because that was my concern. If you'd asked me this 10 years ago before I'd really studied

the super system in detail, I would have said, what a terrible idea now i really have studied the super system a lot of a report called scrap superannuation that's how much i learned looking at it okay because um let me compare with singapore and we mentioned singapore on the last show we did uh they have a public home ownership system but they have three pillars of retirement and their first pillar is a paid off home our first pillar is age pension we ours are age pension voluntary savings and compulsory savings there's paid off home medical care taken care of and a small income stream to keep you going quite different and so it's also true that homeowning age pensioners are the least financially stressed

of any household group in the country yeah so it's pretty bizarre to me super in general that when families are young and in their 20s and 30s when their incomes are low and their expenses are at the highest point in their lives we're saying to them hey guys i know you're trying to buy a house and raise kids and you have all these expenses that you won't have when you're retired but you you're sorry you're still too rich which is the exact opposite of the reality which is that we subsidize families because they're too poor you know millions and millions of families are being forced to pay 10 of their income to super because they're too rich and being given tax benefits and parenting payments because they're too poor to look after their family and so this

whole idea of um we need that money when we're older that's like that's not what it actually looks like in reality the poorest households are working families with young kids because their incomes are low and their expenses are high the you know if you live in sydney and rent you have to earn something like 130 000 a year for a family of four to be equal to have as much spending as an age pensioner household who owns their own home right so because you got four people to feed and clothe and go to school and you've got you don't know you had any pensioner discounts for anything um you've got to rent in the cities and i think it's probably even more now i did this calculation two or three years ago you probably have to earn 140 150 000 as a renting family in

sydney to be equally as well off as an age pension so the question then is why should they be giving up 15 grand now what what exactly are we achieving with 10 of their income when they need the money right now because they're poorer than the age pensioner next door so yeah that's why i um have really shifted because a home homes are better than other assets yes uh b super doesn't do what we said but also super is already used to buy houses just self-managed funds right um bill to rent you can buy other people's houses yeah and um when after age 60 the biggest use of super lump sum withdrawals is to buy a bigger house for powerful mortgage yeah what people don't need that security when they're 60 their kids remember their kids are 35 or 40 already right

they need the security when their kids are at school yeah not when their kids are not when their grandparents um and so that's why i've really shifted and because the price effects also so first homeowners grants this is another one sorry i'm getting sidetracked let me just take it over but good discussion people um were right that first homeowners grants so back in 2003 i think it was a seven thousand dollar first homeowner's grant yeah and people said oh that just boosted prices seven thousand dollars which is true because the choice of a buyer is buy a house and get seven thousand dollars or don't buy a house this year and get zero right so there's a clear incentive to like well i better buy the house because otherwise i get zero but super's

not like that because if you don't buy the house oh what you have your super next year plus its income yeah so you're actually not going to rush in and do it just because you can because waiting until next year has even more benefit right because now you can use the super accumulated savings as well as other savings to get an even better house next year so actually it doesn't compress and bring forward people it also leaves those same um sort of intertemporal trade-offs so there won't be this rush to the gate like a cash grant would be so yeah that's why i've changed my view no and i'm going to get you back on we're going to do do a deep dive on super uh because you've really opened my thoughts around that and and need versus uh time is something that

needs to be addressed and i and i like the singapore approach because it's putting fundamental building blocks uh that that add to our security and and sense of uh harmony right at the forefront rather than leaving that to the vagaries of what might happen so i guess just circling back to uh you know the two uh liberal and labor policies around the accessibility thing how effective do you think they're going to be in addressing the issues and as a flow on from that just to wrap it up what other options do you think we need to consider yeah look in terms of this deposit gap in 2024 it is you know the financial constraint on first home buying yeah now it's also as i said earlier it's also true that we had record first home buying a couple

of years ago so there's always you know the after that boom the people left are going to be the ones most squeezed and least able to so that's um definitely true i think what we'll find is that the market cycle will move and change again before these policies have really had a major change on the composition of buying yeah right uh we're at an unusual point where prices have risen into the rising interest rate it's sort of an end of cycle pattern that you see repeated in the late 2000s every cycle actually if you go back to the 1880s um interest rates went up from two percent to six percent and everyone like oh that's the end of the boom and then there was this final wave of the boom so we're in this unusual period and i think what will happen is the macro

conditions will resolve this deposit gap and this first home buying sort of choke point more than these policies would and we know that because when interest rates were two percent everyone just flooded in and bought houses because that that's a massive massive effect compared to substituting one asset on your balance sheet or giving up equity to someone else that you really want to own so yeah they're small i'm not against them i i testified into the senate inquiries into both these policies? And I said, yes, 10,000 people might buy a house earlier each year in a place and then they'll pay you out in a few years. And that's fine. If that's the outcome you want, then that's what you get. And in terms of transforming housing, taking home ownership

from 67% to 88% like Singapore, or stopping people facing rents going up 20 or 30% a year during these adjustment periods it's not it's not addressing those things but in terms of the deposit gap yes a few people will will have a few benefits um the super there's bigger questions in my mind about uh the fairness and and the effect of that over a life cycle but yeah i mean if that's what you want do it but the disproportionate um policy debate is what sort of frustrates me sometimes that we don't worry we've solved housing because we're going to help people bring forward their homes and do this and it's yeah okay i can see that it's something and i can see politically why i'm targeting this small number of first-time motors so as i said 90,000

first-time motors per year is about normal so getting 10,000 of them maybe 5,000 of them are extras for a few years while this policy works okay so you've got 15,000 extra people buying a house earlier out of 11 million households okay it's something but i don't think it's transformational in terms of getting like we did after the war getting a quarter of households out of renting into home ownership right and subsidized at that and and you know those families are still living in those homes that they've inherited that they got at a discount yeah very well said i again it's probably tinkering at the edges and making small dents and and as you well described uh we're bringing the cue forward a little bit that's there's always a cue there it's just a matter of

when when they bite so we all we've done is just dragged it forward a little to make it a little bit easier and and as you say given what's going to happen with the economic cycle uh it'll probably over time solve itself in that regard so look as always really enjoy your insights i love the way you sort of break what is quite confusing and challenging to some people down into really understandable chunks that we can take away from so i really want to recommend that anyone who's serious about really understanding housing and property conditions grabs a copy of your great new book, The Great Housing Hijack, and choose into fresh economic thinking by clicking the link in the show notes. So thanks again for joining us today, Cameron.

Great to talk again, Bushy. Thanks for having me. Successful property investment is a game of finance. Do you have the right team and the right game plan? Realty Talk is brought to you by KnowHow Property. More than mortgage brokers, Bushy Martin and his team of investment architects set you up with a sustainable strategy structured to lower your costs, tax, risk and stress while increasing your capacity for growth. KnowHow has helped over 1,900 homeowners and investors secure more than $800 million in property wealth. So get set to live more, work less and live your legacy. Want to know how to invest in your freedom visit knowhowproperty.com.au this is realty talk powered by realty.com.au

now with the ongoing disruption from ai and automation and the fear-mongering headlines that often accompany them it's easy to assume that machines are about to replace humans in just about every aspect of our lives as a result our service-based world is rushing to digitalize for efficiency, yet many are compromising on what once set us all apart, which is the act of giving and service by one human for another. But what if, rather than making humans obsolete, the digital era brings opportunities for deeper and more dynamic forms of service than we've ever seen before? This has great potential to significantly improve the service-based world of property

for everyone involved, buyers, sellers, investors, selling agents, buyers, agents, property managers, and the long list of associated property service providers. To reveal this emerging opportunity and how you can benefit from it, the new book, The Future of Service is 5D, Why Humans Serve Best in the Digital Era, has just been published. And to unpack this best practice guide to what good service means in an increasingly digital and interconnected world and open our eyes to the collective property service opportunity for all,

we're joined by the author, renowned customer service expert and founder CEO of ServiceQ, Jackie Scammell. So welcome to the Property Health Realty Talk Show, Jackie. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, well, love your energy and great subject given, as I sort of said at the outset, a lot of fear around this whole area. So given all that confusion that's been created around the subject,

how do property service leaders navigate the challenges and opportunities presented by AI, robotics and automation while defining the roles of humans in the future of service moving forward. Yeah, it's a fascinating topic, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to write the book real quick. And I think many of us, you know, off the back of the last three years with the world changing with the pandemic and then AI accelerating at a speed that, you know, is so, so accelerated. Many of us are asking, how do we fit in now? You know, how do we fit into this new world? And what's it going to look like, not even in five years, but in three years, you know? So I think

a lot of leaders in particular and people that are, you know, running their own show and fascinating space in terms of, you know, property and the service culture that we want to cultivate, but also attract. This is a really important conversation. Australia at the moment, when I go down the rabbit hole of AI, we're actually one of the most advanced adopters of AI as a country if you compare us to yeah other countries around the world yeah I was a little bit too but then I also think we like to be known as the young groovy sort of you know entrepreneurial country so I feel like people do look to Australia sometimes for what what our you know what we're pioneering and what our trends are and there's no doubt like AI has been around

for decades in particular no doubt it increases productivity you know I've heard it said by 40% in businesses. And perhaps some of the listeners can even see that in their own business, that AI is helping them with that speed and convenience. And the other thing I think that we're all noticing is that customers are demanding more of that speed and efficiency too. So we're in this dilemma and the dilemma is where do we humans fit in? And I think one of the things that I would always advise anyone that's thinking about this for their own purpose is first, you need to decide how much of technology and how much of the human is going to be involved in your journeys, whether it's your client journey, your customer journey, or how much of that you want in your

experiences. And we all have preferences, but the truth is there are times when we really want to be served by technology because we want that efficiency, right? But there are also times when we want to be served by a human because we're seeking that connection. And I think more than ever now you know we need to start thinking about service culture particularly in property thinking about well where are the best touch points and the moments that technology can do a great job but where do humans want that human touch and i think we've got to be more conscious aware of that now more than ever beautifully said well in in what ways then can redefining our approach to customer service and the client experience influence humanity and change the

world as you say one customer at a time well i'm a big believer that humans will always serve best and as much as you know i love technology and i certainly wouldn't want to go back to the 80s where you know life was without some of the cool tools that we've got now i think we all want the convenience that presents but i do think that we need to really look at our human qualities and the advantage that we humans have. And we've got to amplify it. Now's the time to really lean into that and more so in business. And I think in property in particular, you know, we're in the business of relationships. And if you're in the business of relationships, you're in the business of service. So we're all serving each other. So if we were to zoom this conversation out a little

bit, I would consider inviting listeners to think about service as a really important way of shaping our ethical framework our ethical compass in society you know you think about what you want to receive more of in your day-to-day interactions and as well as think about what you want to give more out and I think if we're all taking responsibility both customer and employee both business and you know customer we're we're actually making the world a better place and I think we can all focus on our little patch our little corner of the world and and do better and I've heard it said that you know AI is only as good as the average doctor for example you know like it can do a prognosis or AI is only as good as the average lawyer it can predict you know risk

and and and AI is only as good as the average worker it can synthesize information and knowledge but I don't know about you Bushy but who wants to live in a world of average and so this is my point you know like we humans we we have wisdom we we we have hearts we have minds we have names we've we've got ways of connecting with people that no robot or machine ever will and now's this tipping point in in our era where we really need to amplify those human qualities more than ever yeah totally green i think when we talk about property uh while i i can rationalize the science and the data, property is a very emotional thing for most people and it's very difficult to apply an AI framework to emotions,

nuance that's associated with it that only another human is going to be able to understand and absorb when it comes to that exercise. So I think there's a big opportunity for people to be able to spend more time in the art form of property than the science, which the AI can very comfortably take away a lot of that legwork that might otherwise be chewing up their time. So, look, diving into the heart of the book then,

what are the five dimensions of service that harmonise the strengths of humans and technology that you define and how can property leaders and practitioners implement this model to revolutionise the property service experience that we're talking about? So the five dimensions are very much reminding people that we are multifaceted, us humans. We have multiple dimensions and those that really are great

at relationships and build trust and rapport and serve the way we would love to experience it, they have the ability to tap into those multi-dimensions. So I'm really trying to articulate those in a simple way that people can practically try them on. And I would encourage people to consider the five dimensions like a hierarchy, sort of like a hierarchy of needs, because there is a hierarchy in taking care of people.

And so we want to always make sure that at the very bottom of that hierarchy or that pyramid is the physical dimension. You know, get the basics right. You know, be well, look well, present yourself well, have your shop window, whether it's a website or bricks and mortar, like just get the basics right of what the physical aspects of your brand projects or what you project as an individual. And then the next dimension is the cognitive dimension,

and this is all about the mental faculty of the mind and reminding us that we humans have the ability to pay attention and not just like a screen or a robot where you can sort of point and shoot a camera. We actually have the ability to be present with humans, to read a situation, and to pick up on cues and clues through the way we pay attention and bring presence. And so the cognitive dimension is also about how we make decisions

and how we use good judgment, which is incredibly special as a human being and then the third dimension is the emotional dimension and so this is reminding us that service relationships very subjective we're all very unpredictable us humans and so you never know what you're going to get on the other end of a phone call or a coffee meeting or a conversation at a property and so we've got to remember that we are emotional beings and our emotional vocabulary and our phrasing and how we ask questions and how we bring our emotional intelligence of conversations is such a superpower that we all we all need to strengthen and keep building muscle around the fourth dimension is the social dimension and this is

probably one of my most favorite dimensions because it reminds us that we are tribal we are social beings we we need to connect and so at its most practical form we need to remember that i always have this saying you know connection before content always create connection with someone first what's their name where are they from where have they traveled in from today how do you know how can i build rapport and trust with you as a human to human before we get down to business and the social dimension i think we saw a huge impact during covid about how we really need to be connected and isolation is such a such a big um epidemic you know you know in our world these days and then the fifth dimension the final dimension is the spiritual dimension and this

is to remind people that we we seek meaning as humans we're always wanting something significant and meaning and what might be a very ordinary transaction for you could be something incredibly significant for someone else and you touched on it before bushy that you know property is very emotional i've been through it a few times on either ends and um you you there's a lot of strong emotions that you feel with with purchasing decisions or selling decisions and so um we need to remember the meaning that this transaction or this this particular activity might bring for someone and the book unpacks all that in a lot of detail but i've just given you a really quick overview of what those five dimensions are yeah beautifully said and and it's really clear just

from uh the great description you've given of those those social and emotional uh components are something that ai is just not going to be able to get its head around so there's a And also I think, you know, the beauty of property is having the time to really listen, to understand. And if AI is giving you more time to be able to spend in that space so you're really understanding what someone's looking for and what their needs are, then you're going to give them a better result. So loving where that's heading.

How can property leaders and teams then lead the revolution in their sphere of influence by embracing both the human and technological strengths in the service delivery then? Jackie? Yeah, I think we all have a role to play to reimagine service. I think even the term service or customer service, it doesn't exactly evoke the same enthusiasm that perhaps it once did, right?

There's a bit of a stigma around it. So I think if we want a better world, a better community, a better society, we all play a role. For the leaders that are listening, those that have an opportunity to create service cultures in their businesses, be explicit. be absolutely explicit about what you expect from your teams and from the people that work with you in how we treat people, you know,

get really clear on behaviours and language. And, you know, the idea here is that the more awareness we have of what's explicitly expected, the better choices we make and the better choices we make in those human-to-human interactions, the better results we get when it comes to trust, rapport, connection and ultimately a result that you're looking for. But if, you know, if you're someone that isn't leading a team, I think we all need to be really mindful that customers

in general are a lot more grumpier than they used to be. You know, cost of living is pretty full on at the moment. There's a lot of fear and uncertainty in society and people's levels of tolerance just isn't what it perhaps once was. But also employees are a lot more what I would call ultra-sensitive. you know we're seeing um more defensiveness more reactiveness in the workplace and so there's this harmful cycle of sort of employing customer that you know we we need to be really aware of we're in a different world now and how we work together is by maybe bringing back some of those good old

fashion principles you know do unto others as you'd want to be um had done to you and the 5d is perhaps a way of reimagining and introducing some new language maybe unlearning some things and and thinking about things differently and remembering that we humans we have the advantage that ai and robots you know hopefully will never have and that is that um we can make people feel seen and we can make people feel heard and most importantly we can make people feel like they really matter and that we understand them yeah beautifully said so bring it all to a head then jackie yeah how do property buyers investors landlords and sellers all benefit from this integrated value-added approach well i think you know i've i've written a book for busy people so

it's a nice 30 000 word book you could probably smash it out in a weekend um and it's it's the first half of the book is very much about you know setting up why but the second half is really practical there's a um there's a diagnostic at the back of the book that helps people maybe have a look at you know how am i going in some of these dimensions and give yourself a bit of a self-assessment and there's a blueprint um in the second half of the book that gives people some techniques that they can um try on for size practice and maybe even come up with their own version of but it really is about building muscle and perhaps practicing the things that we know how to do but we've forgotten or we've allowed some of that technology

and the busyness of our day-to-day to sort of overshadow those beautiful human qualities that we all have. So, yeah, the book is a great how-to guide in the back half and there's a little self-assessment people can play with and work out where their gaps are and where their strengths are. Well, I really want to thank you for motivating us with the emerging human opportunity in this exponentially growing world of AI, robotics and automation, Jackie, and we suggest that anyone who wants to learn more grabs a copy of your book,

The Future of Services 5D, Why Humans Serve Best in the Digital Era, by going to your 5dservice.com.au website and you can do that by just clicking the link in the show notes. So thanks for all of your time on the show today, Jackie. Thanks, Bushy. Thanks for having me. Are you curious about harnessing your super

for property investment? Propel your future with the enlightening online seminar, The Ultimate Masterclass to Self-Managed Superfund Property Mastery. Reserve your spot now at getrare.com.au forward slash SMSF. Spearheaded by Rasty from independent buyers agency GetRare Properties, This masterclass unravels strategic property investment using your self-managed superannuation fund. You know, it's not just about learning. It's about transforming your financial future through education.

So embrace this opportunity to enrich your investing acumen. Enroll now in the free masterclass and begin a journey that marries insight with action, leading to a financially empowered tomorrow. Unlock bonus content now as a premium subscriber. And that brings us to the end of this week's show. Make sure that you don't miss a single episode of Realty Talk or Bushy's Get Invested podcast delivered to you each week. You can do that by subscribing to the Property Hub now

on your favourite podcast player or wherever you are listening to or watching this show. Also, join the conversation anytime on Facebook at The Property Hub Collective. Thanks to our supporters and content partners, Realty.com.au, BMT Tax Appreciation, Know How Property Finance, Get Rare Property and Apira Marketing.

I'm Kevin Turner and on behalf of Bushy and the Property Hub team, we look forward to seeing you again next week.