Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton - EP:60 - Soviet America

Episode Date: September 5, 2026

In this episode, we discuss the Idaho fire season and how close a blaze came to Darryl's home, as well as the recent Tom Woods cruise, an unexpected meeting with Yakov Smirnoff, and Dave Smith’s debate performance. We then spend much of the episode on the Oklahoma City bombing and a new documentary series, focusing on informants, media narratives, and how the story shaped our views. We also react to reporting on Iran that discusses a possible ground invasion and troop recruitment ideas, and we connect that to broader concerns about escalating war planning. Finally, we discuss Syria, where the U.S. has removed the al-Qaeda-led government from its terrorism list, and we end with listener questions about debates, Israel-Palestine, and continuing to argue these issues publicly. Chapters: 0:00:42 Cold Open and Fire Season 0:03:28 Cruise Jokes and Comments 0:05:08 Yakov Smirnoff Surprise 0:08:56 Dave Smith Versus Dershowitz 0:13:49 Trauma and Holocaust Rhetoric 0:30:12 Oklahoma City Documentary 0:33:03 Reexamining the Bombing 0:37:20 Waco and Federal Coverups 0:41:44 Militia Scapegoating 0:45:28 Informants and Entrapment 0:49:49 Oklahoma City Documentary 0:53:53 Iran War Talk 0:55:39 Iran Escalation Fears 1:06:32 Syria’s Jihadist Government 1:21:42 The Atta Timeline 1:26:09 Torture and Blowback (Cleaned up w/ the Podsworth app. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podsworth.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠) Sponsors: Expat Money: Secure your international Plan B: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://expatmoney.com/provoked⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Agorist Tax Advice: Pick up a free copy of the brilliant Matthew Sercely's Agorist Tax Toolkit at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://AgoristTaxAdvice.com/provoked⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Scott Horton Blend Coffee: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://moondoesartisancoffee.com/products/scott-horton-supreme-breakfast-blend⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Provoked show site: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://provoked.show⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Darryl's links: X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@martyrmade⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://subscribe.martyrmade.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Scott's links: X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@scotthortonshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://scotthortonacademy.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://libertarianinstitute.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://antiwar.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://scotthorton.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://scotthorton.org/books⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.scotthortonshow.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Tonight, I'm provoked. I made technical errors, and Daryl says smart stuff about how screwed up America is. All humans break. The difference between humans and gods is that gods can break humans. Negotiate now. End this war. You're watching Provoked with Daryl Cooper and Scott Horton, debunking the propaganda lies of the past, present, and future. this is provoked. All right, you guys, it is Provoke, brought to you by expat money. That's expatmoney.com slash provoked. Sign up and get your free booklet on sort of your introduction into property ownership in other countries

so you can diversify your holdings and protect yourself. And coming up at the beginning of next month, October, the first and second will be the expat money summit, which is free. pretty sure that's how they always do it. They have obviously some upsells for you and things like that. But overall, the seminar is free to learn how to buy property, invest and whatever else, to become an expat and or diversify your property holdings in other countries. During, you know, the fall of the empire, you might want to look into that if you have some assets to protect there.

But yeah, so that's the show. Hi, Darrell Cooper. How are you? Doing all right, man, as I was saying before the, The show went live. We're finally through fire season over here. It's been a very dry, very hot, very scary one. So it's nice to be on the other side of that.

Yeah, I know that the fire actually got really close to your property there, right? Bro. Like, it was, so I live smack in the middle of a forest, right? Like, in the forest. And I come out of my workshop with a bucket full of tools, and I'm heading back to our garden where my wife's working. And I come around like a corner of trees. And I look up and there is just a 9-11 style,

like gigantic column of black smoke, like right behind my house. I mean, I'm not talking like a little wisp. I'm talking like a F5 tornado of it, like right by my house. And so I drop everything. There's like a, you know,

a bunch of tools in my water bottle just scattered across the lawn where I dropped them. And I go and I sprint and I tell my wife, get the cats, put them in their crates, turn the truck around so it's facing the gate, get our important stuff. together and get ready to go. And so I hop on the side by side and I go around and I drive over there and literally a quarter mile from my house with nothing but bone dry forest between me and it,

a two-story house and a big barn are just raging infernoons. And I'm like, honestly, it was kind of good because I got to test how I would respond emotionally in a situation like that because I was like, this is it. There's no way they're coming fast enough to keep that from jumping over to the forest. And when it does, we got like three minutes. And so I had just like accepted it. And fortunately, you know, we've got a few guys, like we, when you live back here, like you can't just rely on the fire department. So we've got several guys with big water trucks ready to go for stuff like this. And they showed up and represented. So thank goodness for that. But it's been like that. Man, that's a stressful time. I went on a cruise with Tom Woods.

I got to hang out with a bunch of cool libertarians and stuff, and it was really fun. And I told hilarious comedy jokes and made everybody laugh. I could have got up there and gave him a big lecture about what? Sorry, I'm just, no, I apologize. You know me, I'm always checking our comments, and one really just got my attention just now, and I apologize. Magnetal Fuss.

I have to just address this real quick before I forget about it, because he said, hey, Daryl, I sent you a message on Substack about my late son. Let me know if you got it. I don't know how to check my substack messages, bro. Send me an email, Martyrmaid at gmail.com, and I will see it immediately. So I apologize for not getting back to you on that. And I apologize to you, Scott, for being distracted. Go ahead.

Yeah. No, that's okay. I was thinking it was like I thought it was technical problems. And I'm like, what did I do now? Anyway, whatever. I told huge Larry's comedy jokes because I was. there were no comedians on board. And so I was the funniest guy there.

Whatever. It was a good time. Many, many thanks to Tom Woods. We got to sail from Boston to Portland, Maine, and then around the tip, not in Newfoundland, but between Newfoundland and the other thing there, Prince Edward Island and all that, and then down the St. Lawrence.

It was badass, you. When I was talking to Tom, like, I don't know, a month ago or two months ago or so, he mentioned that cruise, and I was like, yeah, man, I can't make that one, but like, I can't wait to go on it next year. And he's like, yeah, I don't know if I'm going to do them again for a while. I'm just like, ah.

They very well may be continuing under new management. So, you know, I'll keep you a praise. It really is a fun time. Lots of good people and hanging out and having a time. And, yeah, I don't know, man. Also, I wanted to tell you this, dude. Did you know this? Have you seen this?

Have you heard about this? I'm buddies with Yakov-Smyranov. Is that a Habakkuk? No, man. You're a millennial, Daryl Cooper. Don't you know Gen X stuff like Yakov-Smirnov? What a country!

So in the days of the old Cold War with the old commie Soviet Union, he was an expat from Ukraine. And all of his jokes were, in Soviet Russia, and then some ironic upside-down way of doing things, you know. So that was why I titled the thing tonight. In Soviet America,

it's the Russians who are, the conservative Christian capitalists, imperialists, and America's the leftist commie regime in the Cold War with them. Ain't that funny how times change. But anyways, so there I am. I'm hanging out with Dave Smith in the green room at the comedy mothership thing. And Dave is asking me a question about shock therapy economics in the 1990s.

And I start talking to him. And then I'm like, well, I don't know. This guy looks pretty Russian. He looks like Yakov Smyranov. And the guy says, I am Yakov Smyranov. No way. No, you're lying. You're like, Yakov Smyrinov, Yakov Smyrinov.

And he's like, yeah, I'm like, no way. And then he says to Dave, he says, I'm a huge fan of what you say about the war in Ukraine. I first saw Yonrogan years ago saying all your Ukraine stuff. So I'm like, wait a me. You like what he says about Ukraine, really? And then so, yeah, it turns out he's from Odessa and knows all about. about it and was a huge fan and all that stuff. So then we sat there and had a great conversation.

You were literally in the middle of a conversation about 90s shock therapy when this happened. Yes. That's freaking crazy, dude. I can't believe. This is like, yeah, because I was like, dude, this guy looks a lot like, Yakaas Mierinoff, but it doesn't occur to me that could possibly be,

even though I'm in the green room at Joe Rogan's comedy club, but like, I don't know. Yeah. That's crazy. And then Dave Smith's buddy, Chris, Fagla was there. It's where the L, right? Was it just Faga? And anyway, I'm sorry, yeah, I think it's just Fega.

Anyway, Chris is a great guy. And he was like, this is so surreal. Sitting here watching y'all have this conversation, you know, in real time like that too. That's like you're sitting around with your buddy debating the moon landing and you look to the side and you're like, that looks like John Glenn. Ah, hey, man. Like, you'd have thought we'd have just been talking about. about the Middle East, but we're just talking about whatever. I think Dave had been drinking some Lone Star Tallboy, so he was kind of going.

Well, he better get him in because they don't serve those in prison, and I think he's going to be there pretty soon for elder abuse after what happened yesterday. No, that was horrible. We're going to talk about that in just one moment, but I have to point out that I learned a new word, magging. I was T-shirt mugging everyone because I had a badass Jeff Phillips, Devilman Graphic T-T-shirt, which was obviously the coolest T-T-shirt. shirt in the whole place, which means that I was

mugging everyone else. I resent the pagan overtones, but I have to say that's a tight shirt. Yeah. Oh, it's so dope. And Jeff Phillips was the greatest Texas skateboarder of all time, so that is what it is. But anyway, so anyway, Yaka Samirna's great, and I sent him a book, and so we're buds now, and I just thought that was cool. I wanted

to show you that. But now, also, I want to show you this, the same thing that you just said. Dave Smith last night, just destroying the Dersh, man. Say things about it, Darry, bro, like every once in a all two things. Like the first thing when I mentioned

something about this, I said something about how you know, how routinely and how consistently and just how matter of factly and easily Dave just dispatches the best the other side has, just routinely.

They send them Douglas Murray Allen Dershowitz, Harvard trained lawyer who's been arguing these subjects his whole life And Dave just wots him aside like a pesky fly to the point where I almost just take it for granted. Where, you know, it's easy to fall into that trap where, you know, like in the Coleman Hughes one, where if he makes Dave even hesitate and think about something for like a second, you're like, ooh, he scored a point, like because it just happens so rarely.

But then the other thing is, oh, and so I said that, and people are like, what are you talking about? Dershowitz sucks. He's not the best. blah blah blah. I'm like, no, no, he really is one of the best the other side has. He's the guy they trot out when they really need something to go over. And it's the, I mean, this one was so perfect because it wasn't that he was like full crap and lying and this or that. It's that you realize watching it, man, the other side of this argument has nothing. They have nothing to offer. I mean, I don't know why. I can understand.

like maybe Bill Crystal when he debated you, he didn't know who Scott Horton was. He's not plugged into that, especially like, you know, back, you know, as a few years ago, maybe he didn't know what he was getting himself into. And you could almost see that point, like, in the debate after you gave your first portion of it,

whereas eyes kind of lit up like, oh, like I walked into, I walked into something here that I wasn't prepared for. Ellen Orschowitz knows who Dave Smith is. All these people know who Dave is at this point. And, like, he go in there. What do you expect? back to happen. I mean, it's just, it's so ridiculous. It was amazing to watch. And Dave, honestly,

is like one of our, he's just one of our best guys, man. He's such a treasure because he goes out there and especially, you know, you could, you could even tell Dave was kind of holding back. And he was kind of trying to be polite, trying to be generous to like Dershowitz's points. And it really just came off really well. But it demonstrated just how completely empty the other side. is. I mean, completely bankrupt, you know? Yep. And I mean, I was trying to stutter with my mic off

like an idiot, was that Dersh absolutely knows who Dave is and wanted to fight him and was determined to do it and said he was really looking forward to the matchup and whatever. So he should have been more ready, but clearly was not.

And I think for people who haven't seen it, essentially, the debate was supposed to be about the Iran war. And Dershowitz is almost immediately tapped out and said, listen, I'm not for what's happening and what has happened in the war. I'm only for how I magic wish it would go in my imagination, in a war that Daryl Cooper and Dave Smith and Scott Horton could hold for it. A war that goes perfectly where there's no collateral damage

and we achieve all of our goals and everything is. is fine. Now, I understand that that's not the war that's happening, but I'm not saying that, and I'm not arguing for that. And Dave is like, well, wait, I thought we were debating the Iran war. We're debating the Iran war in your head, not the Iran war on Earth.

Okay, well, I still support regime change, but only if it's perfect and works well, not a failed effort. I don't support any more failed efforts. What even is this? The whole thing was ridiculous, and you know, they told me and this part wasn't clear. They did talk

about this a little bit. They alluded to this, but Dave told me before they went on the air, Mario Nauphil said to Dershowitz, hey, happy birthday. That's so great that you're 88 years old and still doing this. So then Dave was like, oh, geez, I really better eat a chill pill here and like really go easy on this guy. 88? Is that what you just said? I don't think any of us realized he was 88. We might have wondered why he wasn't 88 by now or something. Yeah, no, he is 88. So then it's like, okay, this guy

might be the devil, but he's really old, so like, what are you going to do? You know what I mean? So then, as you say, that worked out totally to Dave's advantage where he's like more than gracious. And then the whole thing all just went to hell anyway. Yeah, the crazy thing is you watch

Dershowitz and you realize, and this is the case with everybody on that side, it's just a question of how far back it happened. But Dershowitz learned everything he needs to know about this topic 50 years ago. And you can just tell. Like he just has not changed a single thing about how he thinks about it, how he approaches it, just the facts that he knows about it, like any of that. There's been no system update whatsoever.

And I'm just like, like I don't do debates because I know I'm not good at them. Like I just, when I'm there like live, I get emotional. if somebody's like, if I feel like somebody is being disingenuous or whatever, I just want to come across a table and ring their freaking neck. I'm just not built for debates. I'm coming off the top of my head, I can't do like you and Dave do as well. And so I avoid them. I just don't like doing them because I'm afraid that I won't adequately represent an issue that I care about and want to have represented well. And so I turn it over to you, turn it over to Dave or somebody who's more capable. And I don't understand how, like, how did Dershowitz think this was going to go. I mean, he's talking about World War II, like five minutes in. He's like, this is 1935, and we had a chance to stop Hitler and blah, blah, blah. It's like, does that line of reasoning appeal to anybody? Even people who are in faith were hoping Dershowitz was going to wipe the floor with them,

and they loved the Iran War. Had to have been like, come on, man. Like Iran is going to all of a sudden, Blitzkrieg, gets way through the Middle East and then attack southern Russia or something. It's just so stupid. It's so stupid. And then you're talking about a Harvard-trained lawyer who's been arguing these points his whole freaking life.

It's just wild, man. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. And it sets just such a great example. As you say, I mean, Dave is just the star killer here. And so, like, if you look at the reaction on Twitter, he's a trending name on Twitter right now. You go and look.

And it's everyone with a quote tweet about, I want to report. murder here and oh Dave I hope he you know makes good friends in the pokey there because he's got a long sentence awaiting him for this premeditated first degree slaughter of this old man and whatever kind of analogies um but then so like that's what's great about it right is the scene is like mean old hawk loses to bait to younger generation anti-war guy like on the just the very

surface of it. Like, man, they're really debating crucial stuff about American support for Israel and Israel's role in the United States and American Zionists' preferences and how that impacts the rest of Americans, you know, who may or may not have anything to do or with their interest there or share it in any way. And so the victory is 100% ours and it comes with a lot, you know, baked in. There's a lot for, you know, the presumable young person who I'm, like, viewing this through their, you know,

eyes vicariously here. Like, what does this look like to someone who's maybe just engaging in this kind of topic that, like, well, they say this Dave guy, you know, likes to fight and everybody knows Dershowitz. He's a big Israel guy. So let's see what happens here. And then,

whew, okay, so the anti-war side, doing good. You know what I mean? It's almost like the Bill Hicks bit about drugs win the drug war. And like, you know what I mean? There's some smart, creative people on that side. You didn't even know you're fighting a war. You're like, I'm watching Saturday Night Live.

You know what I mean? But in fact, something important is getting done. You know what I mean? The same thing here, whereas like another major, you know, moral victory against the Hawks. These guys, I mean, just on the face of it, dude, even if it's not a cliche about like liberal hippies from the Vietnam era, but just like all other things being equal, two guys in shirts, you know? One of them is from the war party who knows why he claims why we have to have

these intricate interventions and foreign policies in other countries. And on the other side, the anti-war guy, who may just be like an artist, right? Who may, right? You don't know. Yeah, it hurts his few of these. Right, you could, yeah, you might by default just think, well, look, the anti-war guy is going to be a regular guy from the world. And the Warhawk guy is going to be an expert from the think tank

who wrote the study, who knows the facts, right? But like, nah, anti-war comedian, whoops, war party guy over and over again, happens over and over again. It just really sets, like, a great example for the meta-narrative here. That's right. keep bringing them on. I was going to debate John Pod Horitz. What happened to that?

It got postponed, and now they're asking me if I want to debate a different dude, which is a guy I don't know it, but from Jinsa. And I'm like, I don't know, I guess I'll debate a guy from Jinsa. I already have things to say about Jinsa off the top of my head before I even started worrying about. So I don't know. But yeah, I think I can't think of a time

where a Hawk defeated any of us in any of these things. Well, you know, it's like I told, I was talking to Dave about it when he first accepted the debate. And I said to him that at the beginning of the debate, he needs to thank Dershowitz for waiting until everybody knows this war has been a complete and total disaster to debate you on it. Like, thank you. I mean, it's just, you know, when you're on the right side of an issue,

it's a lot easier. And, you know, debating, there is skill involved in all these things. Like, you know, if you're really skilled and the other person's not, You can win on an issue with an audience, you know, that starts out with not a lot, you know, with just basic ignorance of the issue. You can win if you're more skilled than the other person. But sometimes, I mean, it's just, you know, you just got a hand, you just have like a 15-stroke handicap as you're going into these things because these things are just so obvious disasters. And, you know, the ridiculous rhetoric of the Trump administration at the beginning of this thing and throughout it have really just, highlighted the level of disaster, you know, to the point where it's like if Trump had never come out

at the beginning, saying we're going to change the regime, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, they're not going to have ballistic missiles, and this is going to be over in a couple days. Well, you know, okay, you probably shouldn't have done that. Now, we're probably like guys up at the Pentagon and stuff who were like, oh, making this very hard for us, you know, but it makes it a lot easier to see. One of the things I was thinking about, because it was like five minutes in, he starts talking about World War II, right? Right away.

Right away. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I thought about this watching it where, you know, like the way trauma works in an individual, or I don't want to say the way it works, a very complicated thing, but like one of the features of it is that this thing happens that, you know, reorients your emotional life to such a degree that this thing, you could be years and years away from it,

but it's always like right there. It's always present. It's always right under the surface and the slightest thing that like gives it a little bit of a hole to leak out of it, it just comes pouring through. That's how it works. And when I listen to somebody like Dershowitz talk about the Second World War, because I don't really think, you know, like if,

if some, if Joel Berry, starts off a debate talking about something like that. He'd be like, okay, he thinks this is a talking point that's going to land and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Dershowitz, I don't think, I mean, I don't think that's what he's doing. I think to him, when he's sitting there talking about, you know, how, you know, in Germany, you know, the Jews there, they didn't think it was all that serious until it was too late.

Now here we are in America. Like, that sounds crazy to most people, but I don't think it sounds crazy to him. I think, like, you know, when you have, this historical trauma like that, even if it is just, I mean, with him, he's 88 years old, but, but like, even if it is just something you heard from your grandpa because he told you about it or something like that, like, I feel like there's this collective trauma response that just they throw it out there because it makes sense to them. It really is a danger.

And everybody else listening is just like, you know what's funny is, what is he still talking about? Yeah, I actually forgot he even said that because it just sounded so silly. and Dave was like, that's crazy. What are you talking about? And out of all the different little things that they argued about, I had just totally forgotten about that. But he did, you're right, say something about how essentially the situation in America now, as far as anti-Semitism, is as dangerous as 1930s Germany on the precipice of the ultimate disaster.

Like, I mean, geez, really? These United States of America? There's only been one anti-Jewish pogrom ever in all of American history. and it was U.S. Grant that did it in the Civil War in South Carolina. And then he apologized and was like, holy shit, I got, I was drunk and I got way out of control there. I should have only forced March these 17 gentlemen, not everybody or whatever it was. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But the idea that, you know, there's a sheriff's department anywhere in America that's going to sit around and let something like that happen. I mean, give me a break, dude. It really is crazy. I mean, even if you elected, like, you know, Nick Fuente's president or whatever, like, that would not change the basic nature of the American populace, you know? It's just so ridiculous to even imagine that. Right.

Yeah. Like the local monopoly on security. They're not doing that. And I think it's effective, like, with certain groups. Like, like, I think that there's a lot of young Jews that roll their eyes at it, just like Dave did. But they're, especially with the older people. there is a constituency for that, for that kind of rhetoric. You know, when you hear Joe Biden talking to a black audience about whoever Mitt Romney,

I think it was, about how he wants to put y'all back in chains, the black people listening, they might be like, yeah, screw him. They don't actually think Mitt Romney wants to put him back in chains. Like, they know that this is just like a rhetorical point, whatever. But I feel like a lot of the people who are on Dershowitz's side, especially the older people, he says that and like you know uh who's the the guy out in gnome dorman our common you know uh obsessive uh yeah like he's not he's not 88 years old you know he wasn't around back then but man you can see it when you talk to him like i tried to for a long time like tried to be nice and reasonable to him

and really try to like you know i felt like he was earnestly trying at least to understand my perspective on it. And so I just, I mean, even to this day, I haven't said anything negative back to him, anything negative in public about him or anything like that, because I, because I really do think he's earnest. And I think that to him, what he's saying makes sense. Like, he would, he would agree with Dershowitz. He would think that we are in a situation where it's 1932 in Germany and we're just, you know, one political crisis away or one economic recession away from everybody focusing their scapegoat energy on his group and going full. Hitler on. He, I think he really buys that. He really believes that. And that's a crazy way to go to the world,

man. I mean, because you're talking about your neighbors. You're talking about the people that you live among, you know? He lives in Brooklyn, right? He has no idea about the actual United States of America and what it's like. You know what I mean? I remember it was just one of Robbie, you know, Dave's buddy, Robbie the Fire, does his porch tour. And he lets me, you know,

try to do stand up whenever he comes down. Got one coming up, actually in October, I think. But I remember we had a bunch of comedians, like local Austin comedians come and do the porch tour with them. And they're basically all young guys, mostly like young transplants to Austin, brand new guys because there's this, you know, burgeoning comedy scene here or whatever.

And they had all these jokes about how Texans and including Austinites as far as they know, whatever, like all just hate and fear Jews and oh, the Jews, the Jews was all their jokes were based on that. And it was like, that's really weird. You know what I mean? It's like all their jokes are like, you guys all ride horses to school or where like, well, no, not. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. You actually, the premise of your joke is kind of missing. And so the punchline also does not land because, like, what are you talking about?

We don't have hangups about Jews in Austin, Texas. You know, but like three or four of them in a row were like, that was the premise of their thing. And it was everybody was like, I don't know, whatever. It's weird. And you do get that sort of, you know, I think that that trauma response is a big part of the explanation for like why. You see people who, it seems like they just so dramatically overreact to things, right? Or you think you're trying to have a rational conversation and they just completely get emotional and, like, lose their composure. And I think that, you know, like, if you're like a BLM activist, some black activist or something, civil rights, you know, black rights activist.

And, like, those people who think America is a racist country and white America. is oppressing the black man, all that kind of stuff. Like, when they say that you're a racist, they mean like, you don't like us. And you don't want us to be, you know, politically equal and you don't want us to live on your block or whatever else. And maybe they believe that. Fine.

When you talk to somebody like Alan Dershowitz or Nome Dwarman and you criticize Israeli influence in the United States, Jewish American organizations and billionaires, that network that exercises, so much influence over our democratic political system, whatever it is, what they hear is you want to kill all of us. And it's like, bro, like settle down, you know? And it's crazy. It makes, it makes discourse very, very difficult for sure. Yeah, absolutely does. All right, well, you know who makes our discourse possible? Matt Sersely, he is a great tax attorney and a good buddy of mine

now that we spent a week together on the Tom Woods crews. And I really like the guy. And he is an expert on how to help your small business and or your high-salaried professional career protect yourself, itself, these things from the taxman, the revenues. They want everything you got. This is a plank in the Communist Manifesto. You have an income tax.

Think about what that means, Daryl Cooper. In a supposedly capitalist country, there's a fine on earning things. And the more you earn, the steeper you're fine. And it's crazy and it's insane and it's a horrible war against the American people. And it ought to be like our second or third issue after abolishing the empire and hardening the money. But anyway, if you want to avoid paying everything you're bringing in off of that great Martyr-made podcast, of yours. I want to talk to Matt Sersely at agoristtaxadvice.com and he will make sure that you can

protect your neck by all available legal means. That's agoristaxadvice.com. And this is now the agoristtaxadvice.com Oklahoma City bombing part of the show. Oh my God, look everybody, Tucker Carlson and his great producer, Scooter Downey, have put together a documentary about the Oklahoma City bombing. And I have to tell you that I got a sneak preview, although I think it already came out today anyway. Isn't it on there anyway? I think today, yeah.

They have it at the bottom of the screen right there. I watched it for the first time today earlier. And it's great. So this is just episode one. It's going to end up being a nine-part series overall. And so this just barely gets you into the story because I guess, you know, they recognize that this is 30 years. ago a lot of people don't know. And so, um, they start up. Do you ever have like, uh, do you ever have

that moment where you kind of have to remind yourself of that where all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, I, um, I think I probably mentioned this to you before, but back when I was still working for the DoD, like I was out training these guys on a ship. This was in 2020 because everybody was talking about the election coming up. It was like January, 2020. just poor everything went off. And it was this one of the kids I was teaching was 17 years old. And he was about to turn 18 and he was going to vote in the election that year. And he was talking about the things that you were just talking about the election with everybody else. And I realized like this kid was like literally negative three when 9-11 happened. Like he wasn't even there for that.

And then I think sometimes too about how, you know, like my wife was a freshman or a sophomore in high school. I was, I was 20. I was already in the military at that point. Those are very, very different perspectives of watching that unfold. You know what I mean? And like, that's hard to keep in mind sometimes, especially since I haven't really matured a day since I was 20. So I was 25 and I already had been an anti-government cook for like 10 years and had been predicting a major terrorist attack as an excuse for Bush to go back to Iraq for at least four or five years by that point. And so I spend my whole day going, I told you also. It's a little bit different experience than others.

But anyway, in Oklahoma City is one of the reasons that I was a coup because I wasn't so sure about some of this stuff about the Freemasons and the Skull and Bones and this and that. But somehow they got every newspaper editor in America to go along with McVeigh did it and he had no help. Or his only one friend who was in on it with him was in Kansas at the time. And then that's it. and the biggest manhunt in American history for John Doe 2.

That turned out that, nah, don't worry about that, bro. That was just a mistaken thing where there was no John Doe 2 and you don't got to be concerned in the thing. And then I think now this isn't right, although in fact, I know I'm going to make some people angry about this, but in fact, I could make the positive case for bombs in the Oklahoma City building better than anyone. And you know how I am about the bombs and the 9-11 crap.

I hate that stuff. But in Oklahoma City, I could make the strongest positive case you ever heard for there being bombs in there. However, just to be clear audience and feds watching, he's not saying he can make a strong case for why the building should have been bombed. About why, if you take the seismograph information

from the U.S. Geological Survey and the University of Oklahoma at Tulsa, and if you take the, it was Ray Brown was the seismologist, and if you take the eyewitness testimony of Vee Z Lawton, who I interviewed in 2003 or 2004, Survivor, and the news clip of his buddy, which he explained to me, the news clip of his buddy.

And I interviewed Vizzi Lawton twice, I believe, maybe three times. And he explained to me his buddy also explaining how the building was shaking. He hid under his desk and then the glass blew in, which is why he wouldn't cut up. And he was from California, so he knew you're supposed to hide under your desk as soon as the buildings start shaking and whatever. And so VZ knew that guy. So you have that, and you have the comparison of the ground waves and the airwaves from the original bombing compared to when they demolished the thing. Anyway, the point is I actually think I'm wrong about that.

JD Cash was the greatest reporter on Oklahoma City, and he's the one who talked me out of that and said that, no, no, no, listen, it was all based on whatever. Most of it was based on General Benton Parton's analysis, which, you know, had the bomb part in the wrong place in order to emphasize. the impossibility of it doing what it did, that kind of thing. You know what I mean? So I'm with JD Cash on that. But anyway, the day that Oklahoma happened, I went over to my buddy's house.

And our mutual friend, who was a Vietnam War veteran, a Marine, and was forced recon, taught bomb-making school, was pointing at the TV and going, there was a bomb here, here, here, and here. Now, Richard, he was kind of a kook. I'm not saying he was definitely right,

but I'm saying 18-year-old me was like pretty impressed that Richard was 100% sure what had happened there. And so that was the day of. And then, you know, the militia movement and the right-wing Patriot movement, which you could call like the sin fane to the IRA, like the civilian side of the militia movement, was the Patriot movement,

and very New World Order focused and conspiracy theory focused, counsel on foreign relations, whatever kind of thing. And then, so this was the final thing that convinced me that whatever the secret network of power is, it's surely there because somehow they were able to make every major TV news organization

and every major newspaper editor carried this absolutely rank, stinking pail of water. It's just nuts that what they were able to do there. And so, yeah, back in the 1990s on my first radio show, I would do Oklahoma City bombing specials all the time. I still have at least one of them on tape somewhere.

Back on say it ain't so. And so then also, just like with the 9-11 truthers, us Oklahoma bombing truthers always have this desire that if only we could get like one really good documentary made and that would like break through to the American people and they would finally understand and then something would happen. And the guys who did it would have to be in trouble and the guys who covered it up would have to be in trouble and something would have to happen if only the people knew. Or even if only the people knew that America was so corrupt and so twisted that Freemasons nothing. These people are all just on the take or completely incompetent in their roles in an emperor wears no clothes kind of sense that this kind of thing can happen and can be covered up and where the super majority adult population of the country is willing to go along with that. When this is the worst massacre since second wounded knee. This was 9-11 before 9-11, dude. I know you're a little bit younger than me, but let me tell you, this was the biggest deal in the world when this happened.

And then somehow they're able to just paper over with a bunch of crap. And so anyway, whatever. Yeah, no, I was very fortunate because I think I've told you this before, but my grandpa was sort of like you. He was like in that same new world order kind of freemason, council on foreign relations, trilateral commission kick at that time. And when the Waco thing happened, I was staying with them at the time with my grandparents. And, you know, I had him there.

He may have, I can't remember even the exact. act things that he was saying, but basically what he was telling me was what you're seeing on TV is not true. And, uh, you know, I was, I guess I was 12. I think I was 12. And that was like, you know, like I vaguely remember, I vaguely remember the grownups watching TV in 1989, watching the wall come down and stuff, but it didn't register. I didn't have any kind of, you know, it wasn't a political incident. And I remember watching the grownups watch TV. This was like my first political experience was Waco. And seeing that, and then Oklahoma City,

and then having that followed up by, you know, a little later in the 90s, I was in my, I was living in Montana, and I had very close connections to a couple guys who were real tight with those Montana Freeman guys. And, you know, it was just a replay of the Waco thing and everything else. You got these insane militia guys who were in there hold up with weapons and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm just like, these are just a bunch of old who like have funny ideas about the Constitution and like how you know, common English common law says that you can't tap, whatever. Like, but these are, they are the furthest things from what's being portrayed on my television right now. This is, and I'm,

and it's not like some local news, like you said. This is like CNN. This is every like national news organization is saying these things about these guys that I just, I knew for an absolute fact were not true. And, you know, I'm very grateful, honestly, that like that series of events was, you know,

the political experience that kind of set me in motion because, you know, it, yeah, it definitely taught me to be skeptical. Yeah, and especially the way that they can spin up a narrative. I mean, Waco is the ultimate example of that where they turned Quresh into Saddam Hussein. They turned that little, you know, two acres of land into foreign nation, turned his, you know,

slightly altered semi-automatic pseudo-fully automatic rifles with the auto seer thing dropped in there into weapons of mass destruction and his influence off against his own people there into his terrible tyrannical abuse

and then they went to war sent in the combat applications group to mask him all and got away with it and made the people cheer for it. I will say, I was, um, that, that seven-part miniseries that Paramount did. Yeah. I feel like they went easy on the government, like, at the end at the climax, you know, when everything went down. But overall, I thought that show was pretty good, you know, and it just kind of, uh, it really just kind of

showed how ridiculous this idea is like, what exactly are we talking? Like, these guys are, you know, they're going to, them and their families, because their families lived in there, like, they're going to take their guns and go invade, like, you know, the town of Waco. Like, what are we even talking about here? This is so crazy. It was just the publicity stunt. We'll surprise them on Sunday morning when they're at church. That's how dangerous and horrible these people are, is we're going to get our sneak attack in while they're, you know, in there on their knees praying.

People are crazy, dude. Anyway, so the thing is with Oklahoma, though, is here's what happened, okay? I made a bad comparison because I was really just trying to talk about the civilian side the Patriot Movement conspiracy theory movement of that era

but it's totally unfair to compare the militia movement to the IRA because the militia movement never killed anybody. They never blew up anything. They never attacked anything. The militia movement grew up

in the aftermath of Waco essentially as a deterrent to say, well, don't do any more of those around here, man. We're not going to make it so easy for you next time. But that was never put to the test.

And when they did the Montana Freeman and when they did the Republic of Texas and a few others. The militia guys did not all show up in their thousands to do battle with the HRT. Hell no, they didn't. And then after Oklahoma City, they were completely discredited because the government blamed the attack on the militia movement. But it wasn't the militia movement. It was the Nazis.

And by the Nazis, I mean like, let, pardon me, probably less than 10 of them right around there. And what they did, they called all the militia guys not. Nazis, all the militia guys who didn't do it. And then the actual Nazis, they're like, oh, here, no evil, see, no evil, no evil, we want to pin it all on McVeigh. We can't jeopardize the death penalty case against McVe. This is their excuse. This is our official excuse. According to the U.S. attorney, okay, well, we didn't want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh by pursuing others that then could cast doubt on whether he was really the true ringleader or not and that kind of thing. So we would rather execute one guy than give life

sentences to 10. That was their excuse when what it really was was the 10 were a bunch of FBI informants and at least two of them were at least on the 51% or better scale of being actual government provocateurs who were sent there to trigger the plot. Not necessarily to accomplish it though because as we've seen, FBI likes to do these stings where these entrapment jobs or they get people to do something crazy and then the plan is to give them a fake bomb or to catch them in the act. Only they got outsmarted by the Nazis evidently here because they just got a second rider truck.

And they just put the bomb in the second truck while the idiot feds were falling around the other one. And then because these Nazis were all either undercover informants and flip states witnesses and stuff, the whole thing was covered up. And there's been so much that has come out since then. And it's just an absolute proven fact. Every single witness that saw McVeigh that morning,

which was, I want to say 24, but that's the number of cameras. So is it coincidentally also 24? Forgive me, dude. Whatever. Forget the number, but every single person who saw McVeigh the morning of the attack

saw him with somebody else. There's no one that saw him alone. And that was why no one who saw him was called to testify against him. People who saw the truck were called. But people who saw him, no. Well, and they did a really, really good job of making sure

that, I mean, you want to talk about, like, national-scale jury tampering. I mean, they made damn sure that that verdict was, you know, the story of what happened was already set in people's mind long before that trial ever happened. In fact, well, maybe we'll do this some other day or I'll just do a show coming up on my own show or whatever.

I actually have a clip of one of the NickVe jurors saying, well, you know, I kept waiting for someone to come forward and say, no, he's got an alibi, he was with me that day or something like that, and that didn't happen. So I guess they must have got the right guy. In other words, they had succeeded through emotional blackmail by interviewing a little girl who lost her mom and asking her how sad she is,

basically guilt-trip the jury into changing the burden of proof so that the burden of proof is on Timothy McVeigh to prove his innocence. Otherwise, we have to take it for granted that the prosecution wouldn't be accusing him if they weren't heard that he was really the guy. And so here's the juror rationalizing that. Well, no one showed up with an alibi.

So I guess it was him. Now, of course, he did it. Everybody knows he did it. I know he did it. There's no question that he did it. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, he did it. But why wasn't the jury convinced beyond a reasonable doubt? Because the prosecution didn't put on a case, dude.

The prosecution put the little girl up there and said, cry, little girl. Tell him how sad you are, little girl. Tell him how they better not let him get away with this little girl. And then that was how they convicted him with a bunch of crap. It's the most disgraceful thing. And again, it does. This is why this did solicit. solidify my kookery for, you know, a good seven years after that or whatever as a New World

Order coup because I couldn't ever figure out how they were able to get away with this cover-up if it wasn't some kind of secret order behind the seats. And like I remember, and again, that's not it, but I'm just saying that was part of my story. I remember, I guess I read it in the Denver Post, but it doesn't matter. It was an AP story. And it was a huge thing, man, like probably 5,000 words or something, like a multiple page, full spread thing in the giant newspaper. From the Associated Press, all about how the ATF had an informant inside the FBI's terrorist ring. Her name was Carol Howe, and she reported all what they were up to before they ever did it. And the ATF knew enough that they could have stopped it themselves.

And then the FBI said, no, you don't. We'll take care of it. And then didn't take care of it. And it was there, guys, in the thing. I would like to hear, maybe you've discussed this with, uh, with somebody over the years, but somebody who really understands the law enforcement and legal side of it

to, you know, like, the FBI or all these law enforcement organizations, they have this thing that happens, you know, happened here, it happens all the time, it seems like where, you know, it's like you said, it's like we could arrest them right now

and put some weapons, charges on them and whatever, but they're out in a year. Like we can't, we can't do anything to, you know, we're not really preventing this thing from happening because they'll all be back on the street in a year. And we'll have to deal with, you know, whatever happens after that. And so what we need to do is we need to catch them at the point where we can take them off the board all together.

It's like I get that thinking on some level. And just as a human being, I understand, I understand the thinking, you know, don't support it. But like, I understand the thinking of if you're one of the law enforcement guys assigned a watch. them and you're waiting for that big break that's going to let you put them away for good and that boom, you lose track of them and the bomb goes off that you feel like you need to maybe cover up the fact that you were supposed to be

watching this thing happen. But like, I don't know. That seems like a difficult law enforcement problem to solve. But, you know, it's, um, it, because Oklahoma City was not one of those ones as far as I know. You can correct me on this one. Um, you know,

there are a lot of these where if you take the FBI informant, out of the picture and the provocateurs out of the picture, the thing wouldn't happen. Like, it just wouldn't even happen at all. That may not have been the case here, but that is the case a lot of times. And, yeah, I don't know.

Man, the 90s were, you know, it's so funny. We have these, like, me included, like, you know, we have this memory of the 90s is like this, you know, like the way people thought of the 1950s when George Lucas made American American, whatever the hell, I'm 73. And the 90s are that for us. You know, it's like the world before everything went crazy.

For them, it was a cultural revolution in the 60s. For us, it's the internet and Donald Trump, whatever. It was like that was when everything was cool. But man, Ruby Ridge, Waco, frigging, Oklahoma City, the Atlanta Olympic bombing, the Freeman incident. I mean, it was like kind of a drumbeat of like pretty wild stuff

going on back then. Wars too. Bill Clinton bombed in rock. I was a year for eight years. And of course the Balkan wars and intervening in Somalia and sailing the seventh fleet between Taiwan and the mainland. All kinds of shit, man. He is horrible. So look, and he also brad, the Oklahoma bomb and saved my presidency

because everybody rallied around him. The rally around the flag effect. And when the people are under threat by the terrible enemy, then the leader becomes better, leader than 43 trade center somebody said yeah exactly um and and the entire al-kate war against the us and most of it took place overseas but there were a lot of attacks all throughout the 1990s um and then yeah so anyways they they got away with covering up oklahoma city now so this guy scooter downy is tucker's guy and i had a good talk with him months ago about now listen

if you're going to do a thing about the oklahoma bombing it's your job to keep be at out of it and make sure that you only do the very best job and only the very best stuff gets in there. And we already know what's true and we already know what's not true about this. So here's some rabbit trails. Don't bother wasting your time going down, that kind of a thing. And then apparently he has done just a fantastic job. I mean, from the first episode, first of all, the production values are of the highest quality. You know, where they have some reenactments.

They got an actor who looks just like Timothy McBae to do some of the docu-drama-type stuff. They got great interviews with Stephen Jones as lawyer. They got interviews with Kathy Wilburn, the grandmother of Jason Colton Smith, who were killed in the daycare center and whose husband, Glenn Wilburn, led the crusade with JD Cash for the first few years there before he died of cancer, unfortunately.

He's got just a short clip, but I can see he's got an interview with Charles Key, who was the former state representative who did a lot of good work on it. And he's got, man, there's something right on the tip of my tongue, that I just thought of a second ago that was really crucial that he shows in there.

But essentially, this one is mostly an introduction to the story. An introduction to Kathy Wilburne and the victim of these two young boys who were killed and beginning to introduce her story and her daughter's story

to the thing. A little bit of cast of characters and the background to the thing before we really get started. They've not brought up Elohim City yet or any of the neo-Nazi connections or Andre Strauss-Miring that stuff yet, you know. So I don't know exactly where all it's going, but I found not one iota of it objectionable.

I thought it was just great. I'm probably going to walk it tonight then. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And I really like Scooter Downey. And I think he's, I'm going to interview him on my show tomorrow. So I'll get a little bit more kind of a background about that from him. So that's just great. You know, I'm always excited about this.

HBO did a great documentary a year or two ago. Our friend Richard Booth, or my friend Richard Booth, consulted on that, and they did a real good job. Margaret Roberts, who has this new book called Blowback, was interviewed for this Tucker thing, and she was formerly, I forget, was she part of the 60 Minutes or 2020 or something back then? I don't remember.

Anyway, Richard Booth helped her write her book and made sure that it was right, other than there's one thing in there about Paul Hammer that I don't believe any of the Paul Hammer stuff. But otherwise, I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I'm sure it's right because I know that Richard was her fact checker on it. So she's featured in it, and that's probably worthwhile to look at.

Unfortunately, the great Roger Charles is gone. If he was here, he would have been the star of the thing. former 2020 producer turned Truth Finder on this story. But anyway, so look, man, whatever, I don't know. I'm a little bit jealous of Scooter Downey. This is something I always wanted to do. But I just don't have the money, the time, the resources. I'm always fighting whatever last war.

But I've never gotten around to doing my own real big special thing on Oklahoma City. Yeah, because documentaries, man. Yeah, you know. Like, as far as getting, you know, having courses, having podcasts like mine, all that kind of stuff is great. There's nothing like a really banging documentary for just getting something out there.

I mean, people consume those and they remember them, especially if they're really well done. And yeah, I'm happy that this is being done. I would love to find time in my life to be able to do some documentaries one of these days, but it's like you said, it's like have enough trouble, you know,

getting my podcast out in a reasonable time frame. I got so much work on my plate. Oh, that reminds me to have a new article that I wrote with John Weeks about my interview with Joe Kent. My most recent interview with Joe Kent, he confirmed that the New Orleans attacker of New Year's 2425 did, in fact, rant about Gaza on his way between New Orleans, between Houston and New Orleans.

So we already knew that he had been radicalized on the subject. His family had talked about that, but now we know that directly this was the motive for that attack. 14 people killed. you know, not including him. You better talk about it wrong. I stuck you on the Oklahoma City thing for a long time. No, it's okay.

It's really important to me. I don't know if it's important, important, but I think it is. Yeah, look, let me say real quick here that this show is sponsored by the generosity of my good friend Phil Pepin from Moondos Artisan Coffees. And here it is, Scott Horton's show flavored coffee. And it's really damn good as Ethiopian and Samatran. and I drink it in the morning

and sometimes in the afternoon and you will like drinking it too. And it's free to me if you people keep buying it from Phil. So go to Scotthorton.org slash coffee. Just Scottwharton.org slash coffee and it'll forward you right on to Scott Horton-flavored coffee there.

And then at the end of the show, I'll plug our other shows and our other stuff. But I wanted to get real quick here as we're running low on time. We have a lot of Iran news to discuss, especially since we both missed last week, but, and we got Ukraine, we'll catch up. But, you know what, Darrell Cooper?

Like, I don't know, man. I'm not just trying to rage bait you here, dude, but like it just seems crucial to talk about. I don't know what else to do. I'm not talking about it. I think I've got to talk about this. Really pisses me off, though, man. Did you see this?

The Jerusalem Post, the war with Iran will not be won through airstrikes. You know, what we need is a ground invasion this is by stout, although it says AJ, oh no, AJ J.

J. J. I'm sorry, misread that. I was like, what A.J. staff? Anyway, so this is an opinion piece

in the Jerusalem Post, you know, where Brett Stevens is from. And down here, look at what this guy says, man. Did you see this? Did you hear about this?

I saw it. America must follow through and not abandon these minorities. Yes, America owes it to everyone who's not a Shiite Persian in Iran to liberate them all and fight their next war.

Everyone knows that. We must. You heard him. Hop two, boy. But then, sorry, next. Economic enlistment for indebted military age Americans. The narrative war on the domestic American front has already failed. The Pentagon has not been able to sell this war to the American public because the war has

been rhetorically fused with Israel's operations in Gaza. and the American public rejects the fusion. Insightful. Recruitment numbers are running below what a ground invasion of Iran would require. Estimates for a successful ground campaign against Iran's 31 provincial commands and its Mosaic Defense doctrine run between 750,000 and 1.5 million ground troops, Daryl Cooper. The current active U.S. Army stands at roughly 4,000. The math does not work, obviously.

Based on American history, however, there is a path forward, not conscription or a draft in a World War era sense, but in a World War era sense, but enlistment through a debt forgiveness program. The average American, age 18 to 34, carries more than $40,000 in non-mortgage debt across student loans, credit card balances, auto loans, and personal loans. with some estimates go as high as $100,000. This is the cohort the Pentagon needs, a federally administered debt forgiveness enlistment program that fully discharges student loan, credit card, and loan balances after 24 or 36 months of service, and extends the GI Bill,

would produce voluntary enlistment at scale. This is not theoretical. It is the American state doing what the American state has always done when it needed staff it could not otherwise generate. World War II offered the GI Bill. Vietnam offered college deferments. The post-9-11 wars offered signing bonuses and citizenship pathways. The Iran War will need to offer debt relief.

The economics of the indebted American 20 and 30-something makes this the most efficient conversion mechanism available to the Pentagon and the Trump administration. The moral reading on this is uncomfortable, but states generate the soldiers they need through the incentives that work on the population they have. Man, yeah, it's hard to know even where to start with that. You know, one of the darkest chapters of the 20th century in terms of American domestic politics is, you know,

the way they allowed people, like Donald Trump, like George W. Bush, anybody of a high enough class that they could get their kid into a college and pay for it, avoid conscription into the Vietnam War. I mean, they're literally going around scooping up all the poor kids and throwing them into this jungle meat grinder.

It's just like, we hear that now, and it sounds, I mean, you know, you think they couldn't get away with it today, but who knows at this point what they can get away with? But this is, I mean, it's not quite that, but it's like the next step. It's one step removed from it. And it really is kind of, you know,

you talk about this all the time. And it plays into one of your primary themes, which is like you inflate the currency, you force everybody just to make, you know, a basic living for themselves. If they've got a couple kids, you know, and they need to live in a city that actually has an industry that can get a job in.

they need cars to do it, they need a house to put their kids in, all these things, and you inflate the currency so much that the entire population is just saddled with massive amounts of debt, and then you use that to leverage them into the military.

It would be bad enough. Like, on one hand, he says, states use the tools they have for the population they've got to recruit, fine, yeah, that's true. You're an Israeli writer, and you're literally talking about how to get us to fight your war,

for you. I mean, how on a level invasion, which obviously he's is baked in that this would be an absolute calamity. If we got to put in a million and a half troops, we're going to lose

a half a million of them before the other million pull out. Yeah. And you'd be talking about like, I mean, if you need one and a half million troops for an invasion in Iran, you know, there's only 450,000 combat troops like in the U.S. military right now. And it's not like you can pull them off of their current posts and just evacuate

the rest of the world to go invade Iran. So we would need like two million or more combat personnel. Forget about the extra personnel to support them and all the other things you would have to do. I mean, you would be talking about having to bring millions more people into the military in order to facilitate something like that. And how crazy is it that like we get into this war that our own Secretary of State says we only got into because Israel was about to attack, and Israel pieced out months ago. Like, they pieced out and we're still fighting their war for them. And they've got Jerusalem Post articles now talking about how are we going to get a million and a half Americans into Iran. It, I mean, yeah, it's hard not to Fed Post when you see stuff

like that. It really is because it's just, yeah, all I got are Fed Post right now. It's the only thing left. So, you know, I can't think of anything constructive to say either. I can think of a couple of things that I should not say. Well, I'll say this. I could see Trump going for it. If any president was going to recommend the policy, like, I could see him saying, why not? I'm sure you saw his post on true social the other day about how there's just too many holidays. Americans are such lazy bums.

They need to work harder, produce more. Yeah, I think like, you know, think at least. one of his children should hold a job for one day in their entire lives before he starts complaining about the rest of us having holidays. Yeah. I don't know about that. They don't. All right.

Well, I got nothing but bad news, man. Well, let's talk about just the actual Iran situation real quick, because, you know, for everybody, as you probably already know, we struck a bunch of sites in southern Iran the other day. Iran responded forcefully. There's, you know, of course, fog of war and disputes over whether they actually landed anything or not, but it looks like at least in Jordan and Kuwait, they did some barely significant damage. But they struck seven of our bases in five countries, I think. And the interesting thing to me was, you know, we attacked, they attacked back. And then yesterday and into this morning, I think,

Iran was launching on a bunch of our bases again, and there hasn't been any response to that, which is kind of interesting. You know, it seems clear to me that we, like, our hope is to sort of just manage this conflict and make sure that it stays at a pace that, you know, that we can keep up with in terms of the munitions we've got left and the valuable strategic targets that, you know,

that might be left out there for the Iranians. The Iranians seem to, on some level at least, beyond to that and, you know, understand that they have to strike back asymmetrically and they can't do a one-to-one tit for tat and let us set the pace like that. But it is interesting to me that they hit us twice now in a row and have not, we've not responded to it yet. I mean, that could be, who knows, like maybe they're going to nuke Tehran tonight while I'm sleeping.

But, I mean, what that tells me, if you just, you know, take it at face value and not knowing what's going to happen in the future is that Iran has established some level of deterrence, at least. And, you know, that's... Here was your thing, ridiculing eyebrow boy there. I wouldn't dare unmute him. Don't worry, y'all. you know, yeah, cataloging through what's been lost, they can make all their claims, but they can't really confront the actual fact of the thing.

And then as far as the posture, I mean, Trump seems to really just change day by day by day and just have really no plan at all. I mean, they, he went from, we are going, we're doing these nuclear sanctions, the ultimate sanctions against anyone who dares to trade with them, which means China, which means he's not going to,

to do that actually. Chairman, she's coming to town in a few weeks. So what's he going to do instead? Well, we're sanctioning a branch of an Egyptian bank in the UAE because they bought somebody an RPG or something. I don't know. Oh, yeah, nuclear thing. They bring them to their knees, you know?

And then, you know, it's like a comedy bit. You go to bed and Trump's threatening basically to nuke them. You wake up in the morning and he's begging them, look, we'll lift all sanctions if you'll just reopen the gulp. And then later that day, I'm going to kill each and every one of you again.

And he just goes back and forth, you know. And so, yeah, what does it mean? It means he knows he's out of options. It means he knows he can't really do anything, and he's frustrated. And so he says angry things. But, you know, you still got this drumbeat of, like,

very clearly high-level source leaks, coming out of the Pentagon about things. You saw Dan Driscoll stepped down as Secretary of the Army. The details on why I'm not sure about yet, but it happened. You see they're talking about putting Brian masked. I know.

My gosh, man. I hope they make him Secretary of the Army and he wears his IDF uniform to the Pentagon and just wears that every day at his desk. That would be just perfect. If Jonathan Pollard still lived in the U.S., Trump would make him director in national intelligence. I mean, he really would

Okay, I think we'll cap off with this one then Now that Al-Qaeda has taken over Syria The State Department has rescinded their designation As a state sponsor of terrorism Yeah, beautiful The Bothas, they got to go, man Al-Qaeda, we can work with those guys So they are now off of the State Department's

terrorist list. I don't know if I told you this, but I interviewed Lindsay Snell, the very brave reporter who went and covered the rise of the caliphate back in the Obama years. And I says to her my cliche thing that I'm used to saying all the time, which is that this guy, Shirah, is really either as bad as he always was in his days of being the leader of the suicide bomber brigade under the name Jolani back before. Or he's really compromised and sold out to America and his Israel so badly as portrayed that one of his own guys is sure to kill him and replace him sometime soon. And we absolutely agree with that.

And in fact, the occasion of my interview with her, you might have seen her tweet about this went a little bit viral a few weeks ago that the new Syrian foreign minister, or he's like the charged affairs or whatever, but like basically the foreign minister, pardon me, the ambassador to the United States, like they're represented to the United States, is an al-Qaeda guy who kidnapped her and held her. through her in a basement for weeks and whatever back in the Obama years. Like a legit bin Ladenite. And here it started as she interviewed him and he's sitting there with the ISIS black flag behind him.

As she interviews him about, you know, all his justifications for being such a terrorist and everything. And then he kidnapped her and threw in the basement and tried to sell her to some other guys and whatever. Nightmare. This is the guy who's now ambassador, a serious ambassador to the United States. Or maybe he was a four minutes or whatever, one or the other. But yeah, he's sniffing. You can follow her on Twitter and on YouTube. I think her YouTube channel was called It's Not Good or something like that.

Things are not well. But anyway, yeah. So whatever, man. I'm always too quick to jump the gun on stuff like this, man, and I predicted it too soon, but I'm going to predict it again now. America's going to war in Syria against the bin Laden night caliphate that we built there. If not in the Obama years, then eventually. and the fact that the Israelis prefer them to the Shiites

is kind of moot now because the Shiites are already out, the Alawites, whatever, they're not coming back. But they've created bin Ladenite state there, or at least, you know, talk about a safe haven for terrorists. They've created a massive one right there on the eastern shore of the Med, dude. That problem is not solving itself, especially now. So, you know, I'm not saying I support it, but I just think it's inevitable that we're going to end up having major terrorism come out of there and then we're going to end up sending the infantry back in. I mean, probably. I do wonder, you know, it's hard for me to really discern where Turkey's really at on these things.

Like one day, I think that they're just, you know, they're saying what they've got to say to satisfy, you know, the hardcore backers in Ankara, you know, and they just have to sound tough against the Zionists, whatever. And then the next time, I'm like, nah, they're full of crap, you know, they, they're not really, you know, I mean, it wasn't it, I think, I know, it wasn't Turkey that sold Israel a bunch of bombs last year. I think it was a Turkish company that they were manufactured in Arizona or something like that. That was like 22,000 gravity bombs that they sold to Israel, something like that. But yeah, I don't know. That's a complicated situation, and I hope you're not right, but you probably are. It happens from time to time. Oh, well, we should talk about that another time.

Yeah, we got some questions here. Oh, you want to? Well, here, let me, while you save up some questions, let me, tell the people real quick about the Martyr-made podcast. This is Daryl's great podcast and his real claim to fame here. He does these in-depth, long-form podcast, history podcasts, about very controversial stuff. You'll really like it.

Right now he's covering the Second World War from the Germans point of view. I think I'm going to have the next one I think I can have done by next weekend. I'm going hard on it. Yeah, now that we're past fire season and I'm not packing my crows. and living in a hotel half the time. I've been buckling down, and I am pretty, I'm very confident I can get it done by next weekend.

Something would have to go wrong for that not to be the case. So, cool. And here's my substack, Scott Horton's show. If you, this is, you know, you can find my show on YouTube and at Scott Horton.org, but if you go to my substack and subscribe, you get them without ads and a day early. And so that's pretty good.

And you also can get the audio book, a provoked as I published the chapters there. Scott Horton Show.com. And then here's liberty stickers.com. This is my old company from a long time ago. Rick still owns the bumper sticker.com, but he gave me Liberty Stickers back. And so I got all these great stickers in there for sale. Just go to Liberty Stickers.com.

Like, for example, this great one, Rocky Martin. Every time Israel kills a child, we make 50 bucks. And then you could drive around and show people that in traffic and make them mad at you. Also, check out all the great books that we publish at the Libertarian Institute. Libertarian Institute. dot org slash books. Five of them are by me. Three of them I wrote, two of them are collections of interviews. I did. One of Paul and Dr. Paul and the others of nuclear experts stuff.

But anyway, we got all these great books, man. Charles Goyette, Ken Silva on the Trump assassination plots, the rise, fall and future of classical liberalism there, the national debt, provoke creative chaos. This is my guy on the bin Ladenites in Syria and Obama's high treason for them in the creation of the caliphate back in the days in Syria, which was so long ago now, it's hard to believe a decade past.

But now, yeah, anyway, more like that. And then what else did I want to show them, man? That's it. Oh, no, I guess they were supposed to do some mid-roll stuff on expat money. Expat money.com slash provoked, so they know that me and Daryl sent you. And look, if you got money and you know you live in a collapsing empire, maybe you want to buy some property in another country

and protect your neck that way, find out all about it at expatmoney.com slash provoked. And then also check out the expat money summit, which is coming up. And if you register for this, at least tell them I sent you somehow. There you go. And then other than that, whatever, man, I'm done with this.

Mr. Cooper, you got some chat messages you want to discuss here? Yeah. So one of them looks like eclectic eccentric dentist. Anyway, Darrell, would you ever have a conversation about Western civilization slash Christianity with Adam Green? I don't know who that is, but I like that topic. Sure, why not? War is baddam K. In Soviet America, comedians make lawyers look like clowns.

Yes, they do. That's one of my favorite things about when Dave does these things is they love to trot out. Oh, you're just a comedian. And it's like, yeah, and I'm trouncing, you know, your best guys. So not quite the dig you think it is. Yeah, and seriously, it's not like he goes, oh, way, I'm just a comedian. So that's why I don't have to fight you or whatever. Like, he always fights on your own ground.

He puts politics in his comedy, but he doesn't put much comedy in his politics. You know what I mean? Yeah. Onsore curious, dear Daryl, I work for a Lebanese channel. we'd like to interview you for a politics and history series. Shoot me an email. That sounds interesting. Martyrmaid at gmail.com.

Oh, yeah, shout out to Dallas is here with guys. I had them come over and film me for a documentary yesterday, so that should be coming out sometime soon. Quillamar Whap? I'm going to assume that says whap and not Wap. This is a family show. I very much enjoy Dave, but cannot entertain these debates anymore. The debate is over.

Facts, glaring, lines drawn. What is y'all's perspective? on that. I think that it's still valuable because there are people out there who are not where you're at yet. And, you know, like, I get, I get asked when I've been trying to mostly stay away from Twitter lately, except for the last few days. I fell off the wagon a bit, but, you know, I will engage on there with anybody. You have, like, 10 followers, and if you ask a good question or if you come back at me in my mentions with a good point, like, I'll engage anybody. I don't care. When I'll, when I do that, a lot of times, almost invariably, there'd be somebody,

Darrell, why are you wasting your time talking to, you know, this person who's, you know, either talking in bad faith or, you know, they're just like, it should be beneath your notice or something. It's like sometimes, you know, you use other people as a foil. You know, they're a sounding board and everybody else gets to watch it take place. And you're using a person to, like, help put a point across because other people are seeing it. And it's not necessarily for the person that you're talking to. So I think you're right. I mean, the debate is over.

That's why Dave manhandles these guys as easily as he does. But, you know, there's new people coming along all the time. Like I said, that kid that was about to vote in 2020, it wasn't alive when 9-11 happened. And, you know, it was four when the financial crisis happened. I mean, there's new people coming up all the time, you know, for whom, I mean, think about it. Like even the 2024 election, there were people.

who voted in that election, who were 10 years old when Trump got elected. I mean, it's just, you know, you have to continually hammer this stuff home and make sure that they have, you know, just good educational content out there. And so, yeah, you got anything else to say about that? Yeah, no, I agree with you.

Look, yeah, we're right, but we have not finished winning the argument, not by a long shot. I'm going to believe particularly on Israel, Palestine, that the American people, by and large, have no idea who's occupying who and what's going on over there. In fact, Grant F. Smith did a poll years ago. It showed that Americans don't know who's occupying who. They think that the Palestinians are occupying the Israelis. And it's so unfair, the evil terrorist heathens won't just leave our poor little innocent friends alone.

But as soon as you show them a map and you explain who's occupying who, and here's where Palestine used to be. And now there's Israel. They are on top of it. And they all live in concentration camp. then they go, oh, well, that's not fair, and immediately side with the Palestinians. And it's not a matter of villains and heroes, but it is a matter of aggressors and their victims. There's just no question about that. And so, you know, I've told the story before about, you know, when I was young,

I got the idea wherever I got it from, probably from Israeli Hasbara, but I don't know, that, well, both sides just say that God gave the land to them. And so this intractable irrational thing. But actually, that's not true. One side has just plain old natural property rights like the West has understood and believed in for hundreds of years here, you know, more or less, locky and defined natural property rights. And the other side says, no, God gave this land us. So we have supernatural property rights that trump your actual regular natural property rights.

And that's a bunch of crap. And as Ryan Dawson said, there are a bunch of trans-Semites from Eastern Europe. essentially pretending cosplaying being from there. I thought that was funny. So that's the real. If you explain it,

the American people are very fair-minded people. I was going to say that, yeah. I've always found, you know, this isn't true if all you're, all you're seeing is,

you know, a hobby, like political hobbyists on Twitter who just have axes to grind all over their house and stuff. Like, you know,

the people who are just, you know, you say something, about what's going on in Gaza and it's just, I don't, I only care about America. I don't care what happens with those brown people or whatever. Like, yeah, fine. But the normal American, your median voter,

the person out there, they have a sense of justice. And if you can explain it to them in a way that makes sense, they won't understand you. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to win them over in one conversation or something, but you start to work on these people. And if they, you know, if they, if they,

if their sense of injustice does get triggered. The American people in general, I mean, you see it now. It's not just a bunch of lefty, hippie, lip-tards who are, like, taking another look at this whole situation. It's like young Republicans. That's what Tico just wrote in the Jerusalem Post. The American people have rejected our Hezbarra. We've lost that game.

What we did in Gaza, in their mind, is directly connected to us pushing them into war with Iran. They don't like us no more. And that's with them still having almost total conclusion. control over all the mainstream channels, you know, of communication. And so, you know, yeah, you just got to, you got to keep hammering it, pan, because when you, especially when you look at the demographics of it, things are moving in the right direction. And as the boomers pass and the zoomers grow up, you just got to keep making sure that, you know, they've got, they've got material that they can go to that, you know, is accurate, but also just well put together and done in a way that they can see. And the debates, I think,

or useful just because, you know, you can watch somebody give a speech, and it sounds super compelling, but you kind of wonder, like, how would this hold up if he was standing across the stage from somebody who was challenging him on his main points? And when you see somebody like, Dave, go up against a Ben Shapiro or, you know, Ben won't debate him, but like, which I don't blame him, but a Dershowitz or a Douglas Murray and just wipe the floor with them, especially if you're somebody who, like there's a lot of people who watch that Douglas Murray debate

who've been Douglas Murray fans for a long time. And, you know, I used to like listening to Douglas Murray. He would do podcasts with Eric Weinstein back in the day. And they wouldn't talk about Israel or anything like that. This was like circa 2017 or something. They were super interesting. You like, this is a smart guy.

You can't just like write this off as like it's some dipshit that they threw out there in front of Dave and he's chewing them up. No, this is like a, this is a smart, thoughtful guy. who is getting chewed up by Dave on this issue. And I think that's super valuable. This one's for you. Scott, this is chasing apotheosis. Scott, timeline issue I noticed a few weeks ago

with your Kent interview. Ata, Muhammad Atta, I assume, signed a standardized will the day Israel attacked Lebanon. Lawrence Wright. Ata joined before not because of Kana. Yeah, no, but that wasn't what I said. But I acknowledge that over and over again. I wrote that in my book,

and you can't find in writing by me wrong anywhere. I always said that. That's exactly the story. The Kana connection is that Osama bin Laden ranted about Kana in his first declaration of war against the United States. It motivated him. So Muhammad Atta, who would already pledge to go to war as a member of the jihad somehow, one way or the other,

against the United States or Israel or whatever forces he could get at responsible for this, then was turned on to bin Laden and his preacher down at his mosque in Hamburg, printed out copies of bin Laden's Declaration of War and handed them to all the guys. And then they all talked about it and agreed that they ought to follow this Saudi Sheikh. And then, you know, within a couple of years, he ended up hitting the road and was first on his way to Afghanistan to Cheshire to fight for Bill Clinton. and in America's side there and then ended up being diverted to Afghanistan instead and because hey these guys got Western passports, man

they're much more useful for a mission, you know, headed this way. So the, I never said, and it never was the story that the Kana Masquer itself was what motivated Atta. It was that he had already signed up for this thing. Then when he found out that bin Laden agreed with him, it's right there on the front page of the first declaration of war against the Americans occupying the land of the two holy places. We'll never forget the severed heads and arms and legs of the children and the babies

at Kanae, he says. And so anyway, that was what convinced Atta and Ramsey bin al-Shed that they wanted to join Al-Qaeda. This guy's just like us. Daddy Knuckles, loving the show halfway through, provoked and finding it very helpful for my paper in college. My questions are when can we expect Daryl's next episode in his World War II series? As I said, I think I'll give you

95% that I'll have it out by next weekend. If it gets delayed a few days longer than that, it's because something went wrong. And would you guys ever have Fuentes on? God bless. I mean, I would say normally when we have guests on, it's like something like Bob Murphy. Like there's a very specific topic

that somebody's an expert on that we want to talk to him about. And, you know, I don't know if, uh, if Nick would really fit with that. Um, I talked to, I talked to Nick occasionally, uh, and I'm friendly with them. Like, I'm friendly with everybody who's nice to me. Um, I, you know, I don't have any kind of, look, well, this, that's all over a conversation. We can talk about that another time. My, my, my answer to it is, um, I don't think personally, you can tell me, uh, if you think differently on this, that it probably fits the format. out of the show, but

I don't really have any questions for the guy, you know, but whatever. Tufti banana. I'm fully subbed and never get notifications. I'll call up the CEO of YouTube and fix that for you. We'll watch later. Love you guys.

Scott, come on, bro. Fellow skater, stop being a lulbertarian. Yeah, okay. What is this? Skateboarders for the state? I've never heard of something. Tommy Rat. We've got one that says,

Hi, Scott, you and Daryl both discussed the power drill torture stuff in Iraq War II. Was that us or them? I heard Daryl say it was them on Tucker. You know, the point I was making on Tucker, and maybe there's just things I don't know about, is that, you know, I was making, we were talking about Abu Ghraib and how the American people did have,

a reaction of that when those photos came out to the point where it really was like a political crisis and a problem for the war effort for a while. And it really did kind of change the direction of the conversation on the war in the U.S. to a degree. And the point I made was that, you know, not to downplay any of what was going on over there, but, you know, we're not talking about, you know, finding out that our guys were taking power drills and power saws and stuff and cutting off limbs and, you know, doing that kind of Saddam Hussein torture. And, you know, and the point I was making, again, was not to downplay, but to say even, even this, you know, which was well short of the kind of stuff that takes place all over

the world in that region, you know, got people worked up. So the discrepancy that he's talking about there, though, Daryl, is there's a couple of things. One of which I think I've only covered once or twice, but there was a case. I'm trying to remember if it was Abu Zabeda or somebody else where they held a power drill next to his head and kind of fired it and threatened him with it just like they dry fired a gun

mock execution. Get on your knees, boy put a gun to the back of his head and then ah, psych, just dry fire, but you thought you're about to get your brains blown out though, right? That kind of thing. So there's that, but then there's also America's support for the Bada Brigade and their special operations group, the Wolf

brigade in Iraq War II and especially during the time during not coppergreen. What was the other? Oh, I'm sorry, man. There was a huge operation, the El Salvador option under David Petraeus working with a couple of colonels and turning the Bada Brigade into the Iraqi army and then using the Wolf Brigade and the Bada Brigade kind of as auxiliary. to what was left of them as auxiliaries to the army to really hunt down and murder the leaders of the Sunni insurgency,

at least they thought. And then this included military torture and these Shiite militias, torturing guys to death, including with power drills, through the shoulder, through the eyeballs, into the skull and whatever, over and over again. And this is controversial, and I write about this enough already

because in the movie about Chris Kyle, which is a Clint Eastwood movie, and I typically really like to respect Glenn Eastwood. He does good work. He did both sides of the story in Iwo Jima in the great movies that he did the flags of our fathers based on James Bradley's great work, rest in peace, James. But he did this one with Bradley Cooper about Chris Kyle,

the sniper, I believe a Marine sniper. Correct me if he was already. He was a seal. Oh, he's Navy. Okay, I'm sorry. So he, whatever, they made a movie about him where he's the hero because he stops the evil terrorists who are torturing people with power drills. But in fact, he was providing their force protection. He was their slave, the Bada Brigade.

He was their agent serving them as they tortured people to death with power drills. Yeah, and it is necessary to point out that, like, look, you know, it might be true that, you would have trouble getting American troops to do that kind of thing, at least without it getting out and becoming a real scandal. Try it. Keep into it. But there's really, I mean, what really is the moral difference between that and black bagging some guy and renditioning them off to Egypt so they can do it?

I mean, there's really no moral difference there, you know? There's a moral, there's a, the only difference I would say is, And this is one of the most destructive things about the whole discourse around torture during the Bush administration. It's not that things happen. You're fighting a brutal counterinsurgency. There's never been one in history where, you know, the occupying force doesn't get wild at times. And I'm not justifying that. I'm just saying like if you're writing a history book about it, it's not going to shock you that, you know, that these kind of things happen. But when you try to normalize it with, the people at home and make it, write a legal framework around it and make it so it's this thing that we all are like kind of okay with that. Now you're, that's a big problem. And that's, you know, the renditioning stuff when we would turn them over to the Egyptians or the Turks and they would, they would go hard on the guys and we just tell them, you know, here's the information we want,

get it however you guys want to do it. You know, that's as evil as just having one of your own soldiers do it. But, you know, it's something that, I would say it speaks to something about the American public and, and where they were at, that they felt the need to do that, rather than, you know, risk having it get out that we were having American soldiers do it. You know, they had to cover it up. They had to put it off to the side. And, you know, it's, yeah, which, you know, if you ever get to the point where that's not the case and people are just very accepting of that kind of thing, you've really lost something, you know, important about yourselves, for sure. Yeah.

Well, and look, I know people have different perspectives about this kind of thing. I tend to just kind of blame it on commies for sort of blaming impersonal forces, the course of history and the inevitability of the tides of the conflict of the thing and whatever. I look at it much more as individual responsibility. And I know as time fades, people kind of lose sight of this. this is all George W. Bush's fault. He's the one who suicide bombed the third millennium. He's the one who ruined fucking everything for everyone.

And it's just the supreme, you know, prank by Satan on this public and the people of this planet that that son of a bitch was sworn in to be the ruler of the world empire in the first month of the new century and the new millennium where there was just nothing he could do, get everything off on the wrong foot. And torture is just the least of it. But every goddamn wrong thing that has happened since then is all his bolt to. And other bad things would have happened instead. But the whole terror war from September 11th happening on his watch

through the Iraq war and then how that spread to Libya and Syria and the rest. And now with Iran and all this, just did not have to be this way at all. And you know, like this story always stuck with me, we got to go, man. It's been an hour and a half a day. But Andrew Coburn told the story about how the original nominee for Secretary of Defense was an Indiana, I believe that Indiana senator or maybe Missouri senator named Dan Coates. And Coates was just a generic Republican out of the box. And they said, hey, you want to be Secretary of Defense? He's like, yeah, they go, well, we want to do

missile defense. And he goes, nah, that's a big waste of money. We don't want to do that. And they go, no, that's the point, stupid. Don't call us, we'll call you. So he'll bail his job interview. So then Cheney said, well, you know, my old mentor, Donald Rumsfeld, I bet he could do it. And then, look, I think, I mean, I don't know Dan Coates that well, whatever, I don't know much about it, but there's a very particular confluence of interests and forces that made that thing happen under W. Bush that way, and I think if it had been Coates instead of Rumsfeld, that might have been

the difference that Coates and Powell faced down Cheney and won maybe could have been the history of how that played out. And then the torture, all the propaganda, all the Zionism. And for that matter, the reaction against Bush in the form of Barack Obama and the reaction against Barack Obama in the form of Donald Trump and then the Russia gate and then the every gun-in thing. Even the germ, probably, all of this, all traces back to just, God dang it, man. George? I mean, I do, I will say, and this is not a defense of Bush by any means, but, you know, after 9-11 happened, I mean, short of having Ron Paul as president at the time, and he might have just,

if he had done what he wanted to do after 9-11, they probably would have impeached his ass. I mean, it's hard for me to imagine any person that could have been in that seat that wasn't going to take us to war in, you know, like we were kicking somebody's ass, like no matter what. Here's the thing, though, man, at the start of the Afghan war, the CIA and George Tenet, and the official recommendation of CIA, and the National Security Advisor, Connoisa Rice, counseled that we should do everything we can to only kill Arabs and to demonstrate and to speak directly to the Taliban and show them, look, man, we're not here for you.

We don't want to kill you, and we don't want to blow up your army, and we don't want to kill your guys. Just point us out some Arabs, and we'll get them. And there were numerous occasions during that fight where the Arabs isolated themselves away, like out at Toribora. There was in Gary Burns in the CIA, the second CIA commander on scenes book.

He talks about getting on the radio with the Taliban commander, who says, I surrender. Don't kill me, man. Please. And he says, well, do you have any? Arabs with you? And the Taliban commander says, yes. And he says, kill them. And he says, all right. And they can hear in the background on the radio. They can hear fighting and then, or like, you know, arguing. And then rat tat tat tat tat tat tat. Because they had lined up all the Arabs and murdered them all.

All the guys who had been like, you know, dispatch by bin Laden to fight with the Taliban against the Northern Alliance in the civil war, whether they were like legit international bin Laden nights or not. They're Arabs. They're in Afghanistan. Their lives forfeit. That's it. Taliban, is that cool with you? Taliban says, yes, that's cool with me.

And then what did Donald Rumsfeld say? No, we have to do a regime change. We have to spread the war. We have to stay in Afghanistan so that we can spread the war to Iraq. And I'm just telling you, a man like Joe Lieberman could not have gotten that done, dude, in the Al Gore administration. It just had to be these particular horrible men to do the horrible things that they did. It didn't have to be this way at all, man.

And I'm not like selling some utopian world order of greatness and whatever. Ron Paul was never going to be the president of the United States. But if you'd, hell, if it had been President Dan Coates, this, whoever the hell he is, right? The brainless, you know, machine made Republican in a cellophane box, in a plastic box, you know, Republican Senator X. if it had just been him, things would have been fine. You know, it had to be these horrible sons of bitches to do the horrible thing that they did and then to lead to just, you know,

I'm sorry, I'm reusing this one from an interview earlier today. It's like Doc Brown in Back to the Future too, where he goes, yeah, see, we went on a skew to a tangent to this wrong timeline where Biff is the president of the United States, sorry, the mayor, and everything's gone completely to hell. And that was what happened, man, was George W. Bush became the president. He's ruined everything.

And I'm the world's greatest Clinton hater. We just spent this whole time talking about Waco and Oklahoma and all of these things. But, you know, again, just anybody but him. Yeah, and I mean, I guess the backup for that narrative is just, you know, it's hard to say that things couldn't have been better when how they actually went was about as bad as they possibly could have gone. So, yeah, I mean, I was joking before. It's sort of like if Joe Biden had been elected in 88.

and he'd just been the president this whole time. Like, that's basically what we've had. And that's about the equivalent of the George Bush presidency would have been if it had been Biden's. He would have done the same. With that, I'm sorry. I'm just rambling my hatred and resentment. Good night, Daryl Cooper.

Good night, everybody. We're seeing us. This has been provoked with Daryl Cooper and Scott Horton. Be sure to like and subscribe to help us beat the propaganda algorithm. Go follow at Facebook. Provoked underscore show on Ex and YouTube. And tune in next time for more Provoked.