PTI - Did Thibodeau Deserve to be Fired?

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Tony Kornheiser and Frank Isola discuss a shocking decision from the Knicks, Jayden Daniels, the NBA Finals, and the Stanley Cup. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Part of the interruption, but I'm Frank Isola. Hey, Tony, scientists now say Jupiter was once twice as big as it is today. Tony Cornheiser, wow.

And I thought Uranus was gassy. I'm so glad Wilbon's not here, because Wilbon would ruin the joke, he'd go, ah, ha, ha, ah, and he ruined it. And it's a good joke, right? It's a good joke. I walk. I walk. I walk right.

I walked into it. Yeah, it's all right. Wilbon has the day off, as I said, so I'm pleased to be joined. to be joined by our great friend and the co-host of the starting lineup on Sirius XM, Mr. Frank Isola. Not bad. And we lead today with a big surprise in the NBA. The Knicks fired head coach Tom Thibodeau. Tibbs let the Knicks to the playoffs in four of his five seasons at the helm, most recently

bowing out to Indiana in the Eastern Conference finals on Saturday. The team just won 50 games in consecutive seasons for the first time since the 90s. Frank, does this move make sense to you? Well, it doesn't make any sense, except if you cover the Knicks for a long time like I did, I always tell people remove logic and reason from anything that happens, especially over the last 20 years

under the current ownership group here. Tom Tibodeau and the Knicks won 10 playoff games, Tony. In the previous 18 years, they won seven. That's seven playoff wins over 18 years, and they kept moving the goalpost. It was you have to beat Detroit. All right, you better be competitive against Boston. They beat Boston.

Then they lose Indiana. Everyone's treating Indiana like that's some also-ran team. They were really good since January 1st. So it feels to me like it's a bit of a witch hunt. They wanted Tom Tiburow out for a long time, whether that's Jim Dolan, whether that's management. But the Knicks are going to go back to doing what they know best, which is losing basketball.

When they finally had some stability and continuity and some winning, clearly couldn't handle prosperity. So I found out about this. I got a phone call about two hours ago. And I mean, your jaw drops. What are you talking about? They just had a really good year, the best year than they've had in a long time. And Thibadol was part of it.

Now, I will tell you that I would watch these playoff games, and I would see him on the sideline standing absolutely still with a pained expression on his face. And I figured he had ulcer problems. But I never got the sense that he didn't have. control of the team, and I never got the sense that there was rebellion. Maybe there was. I'm going to ask you the questions that a sports writer would ask in this thing, which is, who are the Knicks chasing? Are they chasing a player and they had to make this change?

Are they chasing a coach? Who is running the Knicks? Is it the owner in this case, or is it the general manager? And what is the aim here? Because Thibodeau did a good job by any objective measure. Yeah, they're all great questions. And, you know, Leon Rose is the president. Leon was once Tom Tibado's agent. He's a team president. He was once his agent. There's no way, I can't imagine that Leon Rose wants Tom Tibdo out.

Jalen Brunson said right after they lost Indiana that he had his full support. So that leads me to the owner. Someone got to the owner. You know, the one thing about the Knicks, you know, you get these celebrities that show up at games and they pay crazy tickets. They want to hug the players after games. The Knicks get caught up in all the hoopla. they never get down to the nitty degree of what it takes to win. Think about this, Tony.

Minnesota has now lost back-to-back years in the Western Conference Finals. Is Chris Finch in trouble? Rick Carlisle lost, got swept last year in the conference finals. Blew a game one. Keep that in mind, blew a game one. Was Rick Carlisle in trouble? This is just the way the Knicks do business. How about these numbers?

The last two years, Tom Tibdow won 17 playoff games. Steve Kerr's won five, Tileu's won five, Eric Spalcer was 1-1. There is no perfect coach out there. He did a good job, but for some reason for them, it wasn't good enough. I'll get you out of here on this, and it's the question anybody would ask to someone who knows about this. Is there someone they have in mind to coach this team, or did they just want to get rid of Thibodeau? I think right now, I don't think there's somebody that they have in mind. But you know what? Round up the usual suspects.

What about Jay Wright, who coached a bunch of the players at Villanova? I've been hearing Jason Kidd's name. I don't know how they're going to get them out of Dallas. but there must be somebody out there now. I just think this all transpired in the last 48 hours. But it is shocking in a lot of ways, but it's typical of the way the Knicks do business. None of it ever makes sense.

They finally had some stability and continuity, and it's not good enough for them. All right, we have a show to do. We move now to football because Wilhelm took the day off so we don't have to talk solely about the NBA other than Thibodeau. Washington quarterback, Jaden Daniels, was rookie of the year last year. His offensive coordinator, Cliff Kingsbury, said recently that he expects Daniels, quote, to take a big jump, unquote, this season.

Frank, do you? I really do, and it's funny. We're talking about these organizations, and you know this organization as well as anybody, and they changed ownership. And you think about the way things have changed there. They got the right coach in, but we know how it works in football. You've got to get the quarterback. And Jane Daniels, first of all, they say he's bulked up, and that was the one thing that I always worried about. You look at him, he's slight.

He has all the tools. He's smart. You know, he's committed to winning. He's a leader. Everything is there for them. That's my biggest issue. Is he going to be durable enough? And you look at what Washington did.

They went on and got Laramie Tunsell, all pro, tackle. Debo Samuel, so they've added weapons. They drafted a tackle. They drafted another receiver. They're doing all the right things. But you know this. That's the most important position in sports, and they got the right guy. Yeah.

I'm not going to go into all. all the history here about why they like this guy and why they would have drafted him over Caleb Williams anyway, though Caleb Williams went to high school in Washington, D.C. Yeah, he was slight. He still is pretty slight. Everybody worries about Robert Griffin because Daniels likes to run. Griffin liked to run. He was slight. It ended his career. Okay. And Daniels ran last year. Daniels ran 148 times last year, 891 yards and six touchdowns. There is some sense. He got hit, but he never got hurt enough to miss a game. There is some sense that he is bulking up a little,

though in the pictures that you see, let's not make him into Arnold Schwarzenegger, because he's not. He's not that big. So let's understand something, that he exceeded, Jaden Daniels exceeded even the most wild optimistic projections for him. He took that team to a 12-and-5 record. That's a better record than they had in 30-plus years.

He took that team to the Eastern Conference Finals, which they hadn't done in, I'm sorry, I got the NBA on my mind, the NFC championship game. And they hadn't done that in 30 years. He completed 69% of his passes. He had 25 touchdowns and 9 interceptions. So what I'm going to say now, I believe in my heart. If he just did that next year, that would be enough.

People would be happy. He doesn't have to make some big jump because he was just fine last year. The Washington team is going to be in prime. time television five times this year for one reason. That reason is Jaden Daniels. I mean, that's how good he was and that's how happy people are with him. Yes. And you know, Tony, it was a national game last year early on in the season. Remember that game against Cincinnati? He went 21 of 23 in that game. And it seemed like the entire game, it was like a fourth in three or fourth and four. He kept looking at the sideline saying we're going for it. And he just gives off

that type of air about him. much confidence and you just can tell that everyone in the on the team and in the organization has great belief in him. You've got to be so lucky to get this guy. I don't think he's going to have a C.J. Stroud kind of second year where you take a bit of a step back. I think he's that good. I think there are great things in store for this guy. All right. Let's move to baseball where we've been ignoring someone, folks. Shy Otani and Aaron Judge have received justifiably so much of the attention so far this season. But Mariners catcher Cal Raleigh, is back on the field tonight, tied with Otani for the league lead with 23 homers.

The man known as the big dumper is putting up all-time hitting numbers for any catcher in baseball history, much less one who is a reigning gold glover. Tony, how should we talk about what Raleigh is doing right now? Okay. The reason we talk about Otani and Judge is because they have a significant history of hitting a lot of home runs. Aaron Judge hit 58 home runs last year. Two years before that, he hit 62 home runs. Shohayatani hit 54 home runs last year.

The year before, when he was still with the Angels, he hit 44. If I'm not mistaken, Rale, he hit 34 last year and 30 the year before that. So let's not make him in to O'Tani and Judge just yet. It is true. It is hard to hit a lot of home runs and catch every day. You can't do it. The wear and tear on your body is such that you have to take another position, every once in a while or do DH.

But Mike Piazza hit a lot of home runs as a catcher. Johnny Bench hit a lot of home runs as a catcher. So did Carlton Fisk. Salvador Perez, I believe, 48 of Kansas City, hit 48 home runs as a catch in one season. So while Raleigh should be congratulated, you know, other guys have done this. The other thing to say, Frank,

is we talk about Otani and we talk about Judge because they are charismatic players. If you stand anywhere near O'Tani, He's an oak tree and judges bigger. Judges 6, 8 and 270, something like that. They are charismatic. A player known as the big dumper, that is not a charismatic nickname. It's a borderline obscene nickname at this point.

He's great. He's a great catcher as well. He's like at the moment, maybe second in OPS, second in total bases in the American League, second in something else, third in RBI. I mean, he's having a good. great year. But it's June 3rd. Come to me in September. Tell me how many home runs he has, because I know those other guys will have 50. I know that. And you know what happens too.

You know, you get into late June, July and August. It's hot out. I know he plays half of his games in Seattle, but that's going to take a toll on him being a catcher and also trying to hit home runs. You mentioned the nickname. His mother also hates the nickname, but he is on pace, did 64 home runs, and he has improved, Tony. Last year, from the right side. He's a switch hitter. He batted under 200 from the right side. This year, he's at 296 from the right side. I got all these stats. I could go to my notes. They're all good. It's June 3rd.

It's June 3rd. Okay? It's June 3rd. A lot of guys are on pace to hit something. Hang on. Hang on. He second fastest to 100 behind Alex Rod Ligas. Right? And he's up there. He's done things that only Ken Griffey's done. They've had great players in Seattle, Griffey, A-Rod, Ichiro, Edgar Martinez. This guy's doing something which not a lot of those players have done.

He's in pretty select company. Anyplace catcher. I'll give you that. And I'll also tell you it's June 3rd. Just come to me in a couple of months. Let's take a break. Coming up, Shade Gildjus Alexander is the MVP, but has Tyrese Halliburton been more effective in these playoffs?

You're killing the big dumper. And do the Panthers or the Oilers have the more disruptive duo? Toss up. Coming up next. Second and total basis, second and run scored, third in RBI, third in walks. Great. It's great so far. It's great.

It's doing third. I mean, I got a stress. Right? Pardon the interruption is brought to you by Ballerina in theaters Friday. Time to spank Frank. Toss up. What's first? Toss up, which point guard has been more effective?

Shake Yildish Alexander or Tyrese Halliburton? I'm going to say Tyrese Halliburton because I've seen him make shots that win games. I mean, he did it against Milwaukee, did against Cleveland, he did it against New York. I haven't seen the other guy do that. Now, maybe the other guy doesn't need to do that. Maybe Oklahoma City is ahead by so much that you don't have to do it.

But Halliburton, the shot goes up, the shot falls through, the buzzer sounds. To me, that's very impressive. And also, Indiana is 7 and 0 when Halliburton scores more than 20 points in these playoffs. They're less when he doesn't. So it seems to me that as Halliburton goes, so goes Indiana.

Yeah, and that shot that he hit in game one and then the performance in game four, I'm still trying to figure out how he was an MVP of the Eastern Conference Finals. I think you would have voted for him. I know that I would have voted for him. I'm going to go with SGA from this standpoint. Shea Gillis Alexander.

They won 68 games during the regular season. They've already won 12. That equals 80. I'm bad at math, but that's 80. And he's averaging 29.8 points in just about seven assists per game. And I'm going to, right now the game, that sticks out more than any other.

Game four in Denver, Tony. They're down 2-1 in the series. They trail going into the fourth quarter. They lose that game. They're down 3-1. Their season might be over. He scores nine points in that quarter. Denver only scored 18 as a team.

OKC goes on to win that game. They've been off and flying since then. He has been the most effective because he keeps winning and he has a chance to do something magical. Regular season MVP, maybe finals MVP as well. Yeah. Again, the other guy, shot goes up,

shot drops, buzzer sound. What's next? Toss up more disruptive to some, Connor McDavid and Leon Dricidal, or Brad Marshand and Matthew Cichuk. So I'm going to play this game in a literal sense. I'm going to concentrate on the word disruptive. And Marchand and Cichuk are more disruptive

because they're so physical, because they hit you, because they get in fights. Marshan used to, when he was in Boston, lick other players' faces. Drysiddle and McDavid don't. do that. They're not about being physical. They're about scoring. At the moment, McDavid

leads all playoff scores with 26 points. Drysidle is second with 25. They make hockey beautiful. The other two guys make hockey physical. You can choose whatever you want. They are four influential players. Yeah, I think I knew

you were going to take those two. And the one thing about Kachuk, he wants to be that guy. Almost like in the mold of Claude Lemieux, maybe a little, you know, I think he's better player than those guys, but he has a way of disrupting. But we are talking about two unbelievable players in Connor McDavid and Leon Drysadle. And you mentioned the numbers about the point total. Remember Edmonton has won 12 or 14.

Connor McDavid has had a goal or an assist in 13 of those games, Drysiddle and 12 of the 14. So guess what? The game plan is to always disrupt them. Has it working out. The Oilers keep winning. those two guys have been the two best players in the playoffs thus far. This is the exact matchup you want. If you're the NHL, this is what you want.

You want these two teams. That's it. You saw it. Frank shrank. Let's take one last break. Still to come, Oklahoma makes a late bid to stay alive for its fifth straight softball championship. And Mike Trout is back to doing Mike Trout things. Who even knew he was back?

Good for him. Their scoring at Edmonton is amazing. You worry will they miss Zach Hyman because he's a physical guy. He could counteract what Kachuk would do, you would think, at least theoretically. So you don't know. Happy time, people. Happy 39th birthday, Raphael Nadal. What better time to salute Nadal than during the French Open?

Nadal won this tournament 14 times. Nadal's overall record on the red clay at Roland Garos is an astonishing 120. and four. Lest you think Nadal was a one-trick clay court pony. He also won Wimbledon twice, the Australian Opened twice, the U.S. opened four times. Although Nadal is grouped with Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic, we associate Nadal more with Federer.

Federer retired three years ago. Nadal is in his first year of full retirement. These two are like LeBron, James, and Steph Curry. Without them, there's a void at the top. When you think of Roland Garros, you always think of Raphael Nadal. And I was always a Federer guy, but Nadal against Federer on the clay,

6 and O at Roland Garros. And he beat him at Wimbledon, so that puts Nadal just a little bit ahead of Roger, unfortunately. Happy anniversary, Nolan Ryan. On this day, 36 years ago, the great fireballer pitched his 11th one hitter, striking out 11 as Texas beat Seattle. It was Ryan's 16th game,

giving up either no hits or one hit, breaking Bob Feller's record of 15. Ultimately, Ryan would park that record at 19. Ryan pitched the most no-hitters, 7. He is tied with Feller for the most one-hitters, 12. Ryan has the most two-hitters, 18. The most three-hitters, 31. Ryan has the most strikeouts, 5,714.

Ryan pitched for mostly average teams that did not give him a lot of run support, which is reflected in his career record of 324 and 292. His 292 losses are third all time. The most wins and the most losses belong to Cy Young. I'm always reminded, whenever you hear about Nolan Ryan, you mention the numbers and the 5,700 strikeouts are ridiculous, that he once was on the same pitching staff in New York with Tom Seaver. Imagine what could have been with Seaver and Nolan Ryan together for 10 or 15 years.

Oh, well. Ryan was just a kid at that point. And happy trails, Oklahoma softball. The Sooners bid for their fifth straight national title ended in the semifinals last night, but not without late drama. Texas Tech ace and reigning player of the year, Niziery Kennedy, was one strike away from eliminating the champs when nine-hole hitter Abigail Dayton hit an improbable two-run homer to tie the game. It was only Dayton's third homer the season and what a spot for it.

But Texas Tech bounced back in the bottom half of the inning to win on a sack fly three to two. It's the first time since 2018 that the Sooners won't be playing in the championship series. Oklahoma first baseman, Sidney Sanders, called it, quote, a very cinematic way to go out. You know, in the era of NIL and the Transfer Portal, let's think about what a dynasty Oklahoma softball has been. They won four in a row. They had won six of eight. That's like, you know, the UCLA Bruins under John Wood. That's how dominant they've been recently.

And a melancholy trails to Jim Marshall, the standout Minnesota Vikings' defensive end of the 60s and 70s, passed away today at the age of 87. Marshall was a 14-year captain in Minnesota and a key member of the Purple People Leaders alongside Hall of Famers Alan Page and Carl Eller. He set a then record for consecutive games played at 282, and he went down in NFL lore for picking up a fumble in a 1964 game and accidentally returning the wrong way for what he thought. thought to be a Vikings touchdown, but was actually a 49ers safety. I got a chance to meet Jim Marshall. He was a lovely guy. Growing up here, maybe because both teams here were terrible, I actually was, believe or not, a Vikings fan. Chuck Foreman was my guy, but I was a big fan of Jim Marshall. Let's go to the big finish if we could. The Rockies won yesterday. They now have 10 wins. Do you find that significant?

It looked like there were about 10 people at the game last night in Florida. They're 10 and 50. It's a little hard to believe. Americans, Francis Tiapo and Tommy Paul, went out in the quarters of the French Open. Are you disappointed? Yeah, I'm disappointed. There hasn't been an American man in the semis in the French Open since Andre Agassiz in 1999. Mike Trout, 8 for 14 with a home run since his return.

Big deal? Yeah, he looks good. By the way, that's his second career home run at Fenway Park. A little hard to believe. 17-year-old Mason Howells shot 63-3-63 in a single day to qualify for the U.S. Open. Are you impressed? Impressed? 63-63.

I just shoot that in one round on the front and the back. 126. Last one. Soccer friendly tonight. The U.S. women played Jamaica and St. Louis. Who you got, Frank? Who you got? You know, the U.S. women will win.

I know you didn't like the big dumper nickname, but the Jamaican women, the reggae girls. That's a good nickname. That's nice. That's nice. Yeah. We're out of time. Trying to better the next time. I'm Tony Corrinheimer.

I almost jumped you there. And I'm Frank Isola. Thanks for watching. You can get the PGI podcast on the Eastman Apple Apple Podcast. PTII.