PTI - Does McDavid Need a Cup to VALIDATE his Greatness?

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Michael Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser discuss the upcoming Stanley Cup, the Knicks, and the French Open. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Pardon the interruption, but I'm Mike Wilbon, the Panthers and Oilers start tonight, Tony. You have Stanley Cup fever? I'm Tony Kornhouser. Maybe. I woke up with a pelvic rash.

That's not good. That's not good. No. I missed you yesterday. Unless you're Elvis Presley. Not good. I'm happy you're back. I missed you yesterday. Lots to talk about it. I'm back. But we'll talk about it today. Don't worry about it. Welcome to PTI, boys, and girls. In today's episode, the Knicks consider their next coach. The French Open semis are set, and John Butchergras joins us for five good minutes. But we begin today with the start of the Stanley Cup final tonight between Florida and Edmonton. We are not making picks here.

We are dealing with a more amorphous question. Connor McDavid is widely regarded as the best player in hockey. This is not in dispute. McDavid is 28 and in his 10th season. Wilbon does McDavid need to win a cup to validate his greatness? Tony, I think he does, simply because you look, I think it's fair to judge each sport very individually. And you can look at baseball and there's somebody as great as maybe the greatest center of all time, Ted Williams, who didn't win. You look in basketball, we all know the names, right?

Stockton Malone, Ewing, Barclay, the great Elgin Baylor. You can put a team together that might be like dream team like of guys who didn't win. But in the NHL, Tony, the greats have won. They've all seemed to have won. As a matter of fact, and I was just putting together a list of the greatest NHL players who haven't won. And it's, you know, Pavel Burray, Marcel Dion. Marcel Dionne has 730 goals, my God, and didn't win Jerome McGinla, Henry Lundfus, if you're talking about goaltenders, Joe Thornton, Adam Oates, your friend, maybe Paul Correa.

But the greatest of the great, their names are etched on that cup. and Connor McDavid, I'm not going to put him yet ahead of Pavel Burry and Marcel Dion, but he's up there with him. And if he doesn't win, it's sort of unthinkable that he sort of is not, his name is not etched. So I'm going to say, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we're going to agree, except around the edges to some degree here. Normally, I would say, no, he's not going to have to win. because players can play on teams in bad luck.

Everyone understands that Ted Williams never won a World Series. Ty Cobb never won the World Series. Amazing. King Griffey Jr. didn't get to the World Series. Dick Butkus didn't win the Super Bowl. Barry Sanders didn't win a Super Bowl. But you're hard-pressed to find someone in hockey who is that great. Again, we're talking about the best in the game for a period of time who didn't win.

Because Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard and Bob. and Bobby Hall and Bobby Orr and Sidney Crosby and Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky, they all won. And McDavid himself says he has to win to justify his position as an all-time great. Here's where we're going to differ. We're going to differ on hockey and basketball. Hockey and basketball, to me, are both different than baseball and football, because in hockey and basketball, one person can have disproportionate influence on what happens. All-time great to me is you're the best in the game for a while.

I'm sorry, I don't have Stockton and Malone as on that level. And as much as I love and you love Charles Barkley, love him. He's our friend. I don't have Charles Barkley on that level. The only one I could put there is Elgin Baylor, and it's still a maybe for me. So I'm going to reluctantly say, Mike, and reluctantly, that, yeah, Conner-David has to win. I don't want to put an asterisk next to his name. I think he has to win.

Tony, I would mention this. I'm glad you mentioned football where you can only impact half the game. max, right? But in the NHL, your only ice time is a third. It's a third of the game. So I, like you, I'm reluctant. There's five skaters out there. So there's more room for you. Let's go back, by the way. Let's go back to the Knicks firing Tom Thibodeau yesterday. I was stunned. I don't know how you were because you weren't here. So let's start with your reaction to Tibs being canned. And then your reaction to some of the names that are being publicly bandied about to replace him.

And these include Michael Malone, Mike Budenholzer, Frank Vogel, Jay Wright, Danny Hurley, John Calipari. Willbaugh on the floor is yours. Yeah, Jay Wright is obviously intriguing. Jay has told us, told me, he's not interested in that. And I take him at his word. I do. Like Bill Cowher, that's how I look at Jay Wright. And I don't hear a name in that group that seems to me to be sort of upgrade.

You're going to fire Tom Thibby. And I understand Tibbet, and I understand Tibble may be flawed. I get it. Most people in any industry have some flaws. They're not perfect. Everybody's not, you know, Phil Jackson. I was dismayed when he was fired. The Knicks haven't been worth a dime, as you point out to me, for more than 20 years. And they get to a place, if we had started the year and said Tibbs was going to lead a team and they were going to beat Boston, they're going to beat the defending champions and eliminate them in the second round. And then you're going to fire him. They just extended him. The club must have thought he was worthy. And so if this is a Dolan thing, I shouldn't be all that shocked. Because you pointed out to me for years, the Dolan is the worst. And so because of that, I am tempered.

I'm tempered. But what are you, where are you going to go to get somebody to finish what Tim started? Right? Yeah. Okay. I'm a loss. A day later, I'm still at a loss. All of the names that were mentioned in the setup to this story, all of them have won championships on some level.

I understand, as you understand, why they would want Jay Wright. Like you, I can't believe Jay Wright would take this job. I can't believe that he would work for a guy who's fired like nine coaches in 18 years. I can't believe it. Danny Hurley, who I love, would not last a month. He would start yelling at the players, and the players say, get rid of him. We can't have him. Calipari is sort of interesting, but he did this once.

He went with the Nets. His record in two plus years was 72 and 112, and he couldn't get back to college fast enough. The pro coaches that I mentioned, none of them particularly intrigued me. Yes, they won championships and were pretty quickly thereafter fired from those teams. And they don't have mystique. Jay Wright has mystique. You know who's got real mystique, Phil Jackson and Pat Riley. They got real mystique.

Here's who I'd make a call to, Mike. I'd call Jeff Van Gundy because he understands what it's like in New York City. And I think that he was in the least. league this year and he improved the clippers to where they had the third best defense in the entire league. Now, he may not want the job because he may have left under circumstances and he may not want to go back. Maybe I'd call Stan Van Gundy, but I like you, I don't understand the firing. I don't want to hear that Thibodeau was too rigid and was not adaptable. They were two wins away from being in the final. What are you talking about? To me, this is insane. To me.

Yet, real quickly, you said two days ago, when I was here earlier in the week, I guess it was Monday, you said this is New York, they're not going to stand, Pat, they could do something dramatic. You walked right up to it, Tony, and then I didn't think it was him. You on the phone. You almost called it. I didn't think it was him. I thought it was, right, I thought it would be a player. I didn't think it was. I thought he was safe.

What do I know? Wow. Yeah, go ahead. Me too. They extended him, for God's sake. Let's move to the French Open. On the women's side, Cocoa Golf top Madison Keys in three sets to make the semis. She'll face French wildcard Luis Bwason, who continued her improbable run by beating sixth seed Mira Andrava in straight sets.

And on the men's side, top seed Yonick Center is into Friday semis himself. Tone, what stood out to you about today's results from Paddy? What stands out to me about the French Open is Luis Bisson, okay? Because nobody had heard of her until two days ago. She had never played in a major. She had never played against someone ranked in the top ten. She was ranked 361st, which means there were probably some dead people ranked ahead of her. And then two days ago, she beats Pagula, who's the third seed.

Today she beats Andreva, who is the sixth. sixth seed, and next up she gets Coco Gop, who is the two seed. In her career, I heard this this morning, in her career, she had made a total of $140,000. By getting to where she is right now, she's made four times that, and that's not the best part of the story. The best part of the story is she's French. This is her national championship. She speaks the language. She's born in Dijon, which means she probably knows a lot about mustard, and she is the lowest ranked player in the the last 40 years to make a French Open semifinal. I wrote a sports column for a long time, as did you.

She's the column. You know what? She may be, but by the time the match is over, the column's going to be Ms. Goff. And it's interesting because Cocoa Goff, and I've watched her in person, I have just really watched and paid close attention because she was so young like all the greats are when they start. They're 16 and 17. They used to be even younger than that.

That's right. And then Cocoa Golf's going to be the villain in this match. I don't know how she... I know she said all the right things. She said, I understand. I am playing a French woman. I get it. But I don't know that she gets it. Will you get it if there's whistling,

if there's anything approaching booing, which is not particularly French? But when you are as popular as Cocoa Golf, and she is wildly popular, How is she going to react in the moment when there's somebody else that the crowd wants? I find that an irresistible thing coming up in the semis. Probably right about that. Let's take a break.

Coming up, what should we expect from the Clash of Styles in the Stanley Cup final? We're going to ask John Butcherras. We'll also ask him whether Paul Maurice is right that coaches should not have to shake hands at the end of playoff series. Wow, radical. Do you think Tibbs will get another job quickly? I don't know. Will people be scared off? Well, it could be a bad franchise

could go out and get them right away. Pardon the Interruption is brought to you by Popeyes. Love That Chicken from Popeyes. Let's get back into tonight's start of the Stanley Cup final with our friend from ESPN hockey, Mr. John Buccigrass, wearing a tie like an adult. I hope you take notice, Wilbon. Here we go.

We've got a clash of styles in this particular rematch. How do you see the differences between this season's Panthers and Oilers? Well, of course, the Edmonton Oilers like to carry the puck into the zone with their high-flying Connor McDavid, Leon Drysidal. The Panthers like to dump it in and then bludging you like your boy, Michael's Wilbur Marshall buddy back in the day, would just bludging people on the edge. So that's what they do. They try to wear down the other team's defensemen. So by game seven, they're exhausted and maybe a little bit injured, a little bit nicked up. So that's the difference in style.

Carry the puck in or dump it and just beat on the other team's defensemen. Well, let's talk about the goalies, Vibrovsky and Skinner, who both have been really good in these playoffs. John, do you lean one way or the other going into this championship series? Oh, you've got to lean towards the Hall of Fame, right? Sergei Barovsky's going to the Hall of Fame. Assume he plays two more years. He'll be top four all times. and wins by NHL goaltenders in the history of the league.

He's got a couple of Vezanus. He has the Cup last year. But, you know, the best goalie doesn't always win. Stu Skinner has been the second best goalie. The last eight games, the best has been Bob, and the second best has been Skinner. So he comes in. He's kind of a different kind of goalie all over the place. I mean, Tim Thomas, the last time the Bruins won a Stanley Cup, beat Roberto Luongo,

who's going to the Hall of Fame. So it can happen. We've had sneaky goalies win. They both come in very, very hot. Panther's head coach Paul Maurice reportedly, and I find this to be fascinating, wants to end the tradition of head coaches shaking hands at the end of series. Unthinkable to me, but John, you're much closer to this. How do you feel when you hear this?

Well, as someone who was a terrible sport back in my high school varsity days, it would cause bench-claring brawls with fights and basketball games. And one time the fans came out and grabbed me by the neck as well, because I hit his brother. You know, I was pretty much a pretty poor sport. But in this situation, I disagree with Paul Maurice. I thought it was kind of grandstanding, just to bring that up to Rod Brindamore,

and one of his former players right on the ice, to give his opinion at that moment, I don't think coaches should shake hands for players. Brindamore, as a former player, loves players. He loves the game. He loves to respect the game and respect players. He wants to be in that line and shake those guys' hands, look them in the eye and tell them how much he respects them.

So I didn't like that. I like that tradition. NHL has of beating a crap out of someone for two weeks and then shaking their hands. That's a storyline we didn't expect to have. Is there one you expect that you think, okay, people aren't paying enough to this as we enter this series? Well, of course, we have kind of two, as you know, when Tony weighs that Canadian flag at the end of the show, you know, Canada hasn't won a cup since 1993. They beat Barry Melrose and the Los Angeles Kings that year are Bory Berry. But since then, since Patrick Wall and Montreal won that Stanley Cups,

They haven't won one. They won the Four Nations this year. McDavid, the overtime winner. That was good for patriotism for them. And now they're trying to end this streak as well. But really, the Connor McDavid thing to me is fascinating. Right now, he's the greatest player in the history of the sport who doesn't have a championship.

Like, it's not close. He's third all-time points per game. Wayne, Mario, and then Connor. Of the top 20 all-time scores, only three don't have a cup. Marcel Dion, Adam, Oach, Joe Thornton. So the best in hockey usually get their cup. There's no Ted Williams in hockey, okay? or no Dan Marino. They have their championship, despite looked at maybe the best of all time.

But McDavid doesn't yet, and this team is up against the wall with their cap. They have no prospects. Money's been spent. If they don't get it this year, it could be tough. So it would build the drama for this legend already not to have a championship yet. All right. So I'm going to go off book, and I'm going to refer to exactly what you're saying. Earlier in this show, Mike and I talked about Connor McDavid and whether or not he needs to win a Stanley Cup to validate this position as one of the all-time – not just one of the all-time grades, but the best now. Clearly the best now. Do you think he needs to win a cup? I don't. It's 20 guys. It's not seven in basketball. You know, it's not 10, 11, 12 in baseball, if you count a couple pitchers each game. It's although, you know, you do play maybe. maybe a little more opportunity in hockey than baseball. But I don't. Like I said, it's just a lot of the time, it's right place, right time.

And for him, he can only do so much. He only plays about a third of the game. He doesn't play all the game. So I don't look at him that way. But I think he's healthy this year, unlike last year. Leon Dreisdahl is healthy this year. And that's a different McDavid we've seen this postseason. That's why I believe with their backs against the wall, how desperate they are as an organization,

how desperate he is. That's why I think they get it done. I just think they have a touch more desperation than Florida. Good. I was going to ask you in five seconds or less. Give us a winner, but you just did. Thank you, John. In seven.

In seven, John, thank you. You bet. Let's take one last break. Still to come, the Rockies do something they haven't done all season. And the sons appear to have a new head coach. So he likes Edmonton. Wilbon, I know you root for Edmonton, right? I do.

You want Edmonton to win. I do. I do. Happy time, people. Happy 62nd birthday, Jim Lachey. The 6-6-2ndon-pound offensive lineman was all pro-first team three times. He was on the 1991 Super Bowl bandwagon team. In those days, the Washington offensive line was called the Hoggs,

and their line coach, Joe Bugle, was Boss Hogg. During the Joe Gibbs years, when Washington won three Super Bowls, the Hogs were more glamorous than any other position group. No quarterback was revered more than the Hogs. Only John Riggins was more beloved, and he made himself an honorary hog. They were George Stark, Russ Grimm, Jeff Bostic, Joe Jacoby, Raleigh McKenzie, Mark May, tight-end Doc Walker, and Lachay, who now broadcast games of his alma mater, Ohio State on radio. They should go into the Hall of Fame as a unit.

And it's not right that Grim is the only person from that group who's in the Hall of Fame. And Grimm deserves it. There's no question about that. But Lachet was great. He was a mountain. I mean, those guys never got hurt. They had three different quarterbacks that won the Super Bowl, three different lead running backs.

Come on now, nobody's done this, nobody. Them, only them. A not-so-happy anniversary Cleveland Indians. On this day, 51 years ago, the team continued an occasional promotion to draw more fans by lowering the price of their 12-ounce spears from 65 cents to 10 cents.

While similar stunts had been done before, this 10-cent beer night happened to take place a week after Cleveland was involved in a brawl with the Texas Rangers. By the ninth inning, belligerent Cleveland fans were on the field attacking Rangers players. The game was forfeited to the Rangers as both teams and the umpires, bruised and bloody had to fight their way to the safety of their clubhouses. If you want to see the passage of time, regular beers were 65 cents. 65 cents! Tony, I know you had a social media guy, but on Instagram, a kid. occasionally, more than occasionally, almost daily.

People post video of these confrontations between players and fans in the stands on courts, on the field. It used to happen. I hate to say this, Tony, all the time. We can't even imagine happening at all. Once now, used to happen regularly in every sport. The world's crazy back then. Happy trails to the Rockies streak of losing series.

The Rockies beat the Marlins in Miami last night for the second straight time, clinching their first series win after losing 22 in a row. In Colorado won again this afternoon to complete the sweep. Rocky's interim manager Warren Schaefer said it was, quote, a big time for the boys to get that first series win. Who would have known that it wouldn't have come until June, but the time is now, unquote. The Rockies are now 5 and 17 under Schaefer, 12 and 50 overall. Tony, there's some bad teams in baseball, really bad.

Obviously, the Rockies historically bad. The White Sox still bad. The Marlins, bad again. The A's, which we may mention in this show again, bad, some more. Four teams, that bad at once? Not good for baseball. Let's go to the big finish. The sons who you care about are reportedly hiring Cabs assistant Jordan Ott as their new head coach.

Has that a good choice? Congress to him. I didn't think they need new players. They got to get a new roster. The Penguins hired Rangers' assistant Dan Mews as their head coach. Tell us about him, Tom. I know nothing about him except he was an assistant with Nashville and then with the Rangers, but he probably sold himself by saying, I can be your muse.

Huh? I can be your muse. Phil Mickelson acknowledged that this could be his last chance to win the U.S. Open. Your thoughts? It's at Oakmont. He missed the cut. The last two times the U.S. Open was played there. And before that, he was like tied for 4070s.

He's not done anything at Oakmont. It doesn't look good, but I hope I wish Phil all the best. Junior Camerero, Camerero of the race, has five home runs in his last six games. You've got to be impressed with that. How long has it taken him to run around the bases? Did they have a clock on them? That's what I want to know.

Last one. Yeah. The A's have lost eight in a row. Do I hear nine? A's again. Tony, they started 20 and 16. Three and 23. since then terrible awful it's just awful we're out of time we're trying to be better the next

time dr kevin old donald's shout out i'm mike will bond same time tomorrow knucklehead you can get the podcast on the espn app or apple podcast