Puck Soup - Buy Buy Buyout

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

Sean and Ryan talk about the buyouts in Vancouver and Arizona, the Jesper Bratt contract, the HHOF inductions, and play Immaculate Gord.   Sponsored by Betterhelp (betterhelp.com/puck) Bespoke Post (boxofawesome.com promo code Puck) and Gametime (download the Gametime app and use code PUCK)

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. But we also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tools. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects. I'm Sean Magadu from The Athletic. And, well, there's a lot going on, but also a lot we don't. know yet.

Yeah. This is the, this is a weird week. This is the in between. The worst, yeah. The Stanley Cup final ends and then like, obviously next week, everything should go crazy.

We're hoping. But in between. For take doers like me and you. Yes. We're just sitting here going, do I care about the Sean Monaghan extension? I guess I don't. And we definitely don't.

But being the that we are, we will fake it. Look, do we have takes on it? Yeah. The take is, we don't care. Yep. You know? That's it. They're taking a risk on a guy who can't stay healthy.

And if he can stay healthy, they'll trade him. And if he can't stay healthy, they'll put him on LTIR. There's the take. You know? Yep. So let's instead... One down. Start.

That's right. So, yeah, let's start with the big things, the big bits of... of news that came out in the last, well, you know, since we last did the podcast. And we'll start with what I think is the most consequential news of the summer so far, like, not even close. Oliver Recman-Larsen bought out in Vancouver. Was not hard to see this coming. It wasn't.

It wasn't, right? Well, I mean, there was, as with most, just about all, I would say, buyouts, There's always that argument of do we bite the bullet, do we do it, can we move him somehow? Is it better to just eat what's left of the contract in the shorter time frame, etc., etc? The part that I don't think was hard to see coming was that this, when they acquired him, that this contract was not good at the time, was not going to get better, the idea that a change of scenery would restore him to his previous heights, which weren't all that high.

To start with, I think we could... Totally. I think the mess we could see coming. The way that they chose to solve it, maybe less so. I think that's right. I think it's just a problem from the... Like in conception, the let's go get Oliver Recman-Larsen.

And, you know, we should say, he wasn't like horrible his first year. with the Canucks. He wasn't what they acquired him to be, but he wasn't unbelievably bad, we'll say. No. And then he gets hurt or whatever. I'm like vaguely remembering the timeline here.

He gets hurt and he comes back from that injury and that's it. Ball game's over, folks. The guy can't move anymore or at least can't move in a way that's like he can be effective and certainly not effective at the price point, right? Yeah. I don't know, man. Like, this is a classic case of, you know, Jim Benning may be the worst general manager in recent memory.

And like, you know, the evidence keeps compiling here. It was such a bizarre trade. And, like, they got Connor Garland in the deal. And that felt like a prize at the time. Yeah, it was a good young player who had upside and, you know, He was the best piece they got the deal. But I mean, I wouldn't say he hasn't worked out in Vancouver, but he's another guy that is now, we're told on the block,

could be on his way out. They gave up a high pick to make it happen. And they gave up a whole bunch of bad contracts that were all expiring. Yes. In order to take a bad contract that had years and years left to go. Like classic, let's ship out all the mistakes rather than just eat it for a year because we think we're a playoff team. We're going to make playoffs this year. Right.

We got to, it just bad thinking. And, man, like Oliver Ekman Larson is, you hear all the time from fans of smaller market teams that, oh man, if this guy played on a bigger market team, you guys would love him. He'd get so much more attention, he'd be so much more appreciated. And a lot of times it's true, but sometimes you get this where by virtue of playing in a smaller market

and not getting as much attention, a guy ends up getting overrated. Yeah, it's, with him, like he was legitimately really good for, I don't know, two or three years there, but I think we might have, talked about this recently on the show of like, yeah, if you give a pretty good player on a terrible team, a ton of power play time and stuff like that, let him let him eat a lot of minutes,

he's going to get points because somebody has to get, you know, like even the worst teams in the league is going to score two goals a game, right? So that means somebody is going to get those points. And Ekman Larson definitely feels like that kind of guy, Connor Garland, Frank. feels like he was that kind of guy as well. Like somebody had to score for those coyotes teams. And so to go out there and get those guys and be like, and if we slot him into the same role in Vancouver, well, not that Vancouver's a good team,

but you know what I mean? It's all going to work out actually even better because now he's on a team that's in a big market, blah, blah, blah. No, it doesn't work like that. And his most recent top 10 Nora's season had been five years ago when they made the trade. Right. When he was 24.

They traded for him when he was 29. You have any thoughts on guys in their late 20s? They're usually pretty good, right? Yeah, that works out great every single time. Yeah. Why wouldn't you spend a ton of your cap space and, like, other capital to acquire guys like that, you know? But the thing you said about, like, you know, the Canucks dumped all these bad contracts

to get out from one year of pain with, again, like, J.B. I can't even remember who the other guys were, but Jay Beagle was like the number one. Louis Erickson. Oh, boy, he was in that trade too, huh? He was in there, and Antoine Rousseau. Boy, oh, boy. And they gave up the ninth pick in the 2021 draft, which was an okay draft. It wasn't, you know, but ninth pick.

And made the deal knowing it was the ninth pick. This wasn't like some future thing that worked out bad. That's a tough one. Yeah. But what I was going to say here is, is this not kind of what the could, like, are they not going to spend this, this cap money in a really stupid way this summer? I don't know if you saw this quote that Greg, but I blew the bit. Sorry, everyone. he got a quote from like some league executive that the guy was like oh you know what do you think

of this free agent class the guy was like it's fucking awful what are you talking about it's horrible very very good yeah but and the other quote i saw was i think it was elliot freedman saying Vancouver would not do this if they didn't have a target in mind for the cap space which is like the first like yeah that's spine chilling Yeah, and it's like just that first time that the music starts getting a little dark and you're like, oh, no. Because I saw that we had a list on the athletic where it was like possible connect targets. And it was a motley crew, let's just say. Including some guys who at a reasonable salary would be perfectly fine additions to a team.

But I mean, if you're sitting there going, man, they just freed up a bunch of space. maybe they've got some some star in mind it's not in free agency because there aren't any and if it's by trade it's it's something under the radar no one else is seeing coming right now so i don't know yeah so here's my question for you what's the kinnucks plan because if they like you say if they have a target in mind and they're you know like gonna i again, just use all the cap space they just got from this deal with the hope that I guess next year the cap's going to explode and everything's going to work out and they're not going to have to worry about how onerous the OEL buyout penalty is. Like, what is the plan? Because can this be a top three team in that division without just having everything go their way all season? I mean, I think the plan is the same as it always seems to be in Vancouver, which is, make the playoffs, put that extra playoff revenue in the pocket of your owner, and then hope for the best. I don't know to do that.

And hope that you can be the Florida Panthers or the Montreal Canadians or the Dallas Stars, you know, buy into this whole once the playoffs get here, anything can happen. And again, we've seen many teams get stuck in the middle before. It's the worst place to be in the NHL where you're not going to. up, you're not going down, you're just stuck in that playoff bubble range. And we've seen a lot of teams do it completely inexplicably. Whereas the Canucks at least, obviously management decisions play into this. Obviously ownership plays into this, we assume.

But it is also this tough, like we've got Lias Peterson. We've got Quinn Hughes. Do we want to do a rebuild while those guys are in their prime? or do we want to supplement and try to push forward? It's the same thing that got them. J.T. Miller locked in. Same thing that got them any number of other things. So we're still waiting.

Are they going to move Brock Besser? Are they going to do this or that? Like, there's still a team that could have a lot of moves in play. But I think the goal is make the playoffs. You know, are you going to be better than Vegas or Edmonton? Unlikely. I think you can probably. talk yourself into

anything else being in play. Obviously, LA's ahead of you right now. Yeah. And you go, but even if we're a wild card, just get in, baby. And then you just get in and you realize you're playing Colorado and but hey, look what Seattle did, right?

Why not us? I think that's the plan. It's really, look, I saw, I've seen this a lot in the last few days. We'll talk about about the Connor Hellebuck rumors now or in a bit, I mean.

But like right now, all I got to say about this is like all these teams, look, Aiden Hill, they want to cup with Aden Hill. Yeah, you know who else they want to come up with is fucking Bruce Cassidy? You have Bruce Cassidy behind the bench? Oh, you don't. Yep. Well, that seems like it's the fucking problem here.

You know what I mean? And like, I don't know, is Rick Tockett any good at all? I don't think he's ever coached a half decent team in his life, or at least at the NHL level, right? So I have no idea if that guy's a good coach, but I can tell you this, he doesn't seem to have the impact Bruce Cassidy does, right? And, you know, Lindy Rough in New Jersey, same thing, you know?

Say what you want about the devils last year, but you know what they weren't doing was making their goalies look good. Yep. so I don't know man like this idea that again like this just happens anytime like you said like a kind of shitty team makes the makes the cup final it's like let's just steal their idea let's just have a bad goalie and it'll work I don't you know what what was what did we say Montreal did so well you know like did they just have big guy like big guys on the blue line and so everybody's going to go out and get a big guy on the blue line hey I got a big guy

on the blue line for you. Oliver Ekman Larson. You won't believe I'm picking this fucking guy. Yeah. Man, I don't know. Yep. I mean, it's the Canucks.

We have to wait and see on the Canucks, but at this point, they are very much typecast as a team where, A, people just don't generally have a lot of faith in the decision making and B, that they assume the decisions that are being made are being made towards

just get in and hope. It really seemed like they got it last. I don't know what, I don't necessarily, like there are teams that have been in this situation where I'm screaming at them, like you clearly need to start over and rebuild. And Vancouver, it is tougher with the guys that they have now, but I don't know.

Well, the thing with them is they can say that in theory they have an elite player at every position. Elite center, Elias Pedersen. Elite number one defenseman, Quinn Hughes. Maybe I wouldn't go so far as to say elite, but a number one defenseman, certainly, if all is going well. And when healthy, in theory, Thatcher Demko.

In actual practice, he's very rarely, or, you know, at least in the last two years, he hasn't really been healthy. and he has basically like one season of being like an actual starting goalie in the NHL, you know, and then he gets all banged up. He barely plays last year. He stinks when he does play. And I don't know, man.

They still got Tyler Myers, right? Like, they still have J.T. Miller and Connor Garland and all these guys. like not bad players, but just like weirdly expensive players that are clogging up the middle of the lineup, you know, the top of the payroll. And it's like you got you got to resign Patterson next summer, you know? You got to, I don't get it. I just really don't get it. Just because that division is maybe not, you know, it's not as top heavy as. say the Atlantic is.

But it's going to be tough to break through into that top three. Especially if L.A. adds this summer, which it seems like they will. And again, like you look at, you feel like you're pretty safe in that division as far as Anaheim is rebuilding. San Jose is trying to rebuild as best they can with, the contracts that they're locked into. But then from there, I mean, we haven't really mentioned Seattle.

Nope, sure. And we haven't mentioned Calgary, which is another team that's a question mark, but new coach, new GM, you know, I don't think anyone would be shocked if Calgary was better in Vancouver next year. So, I mean, even getting to the wild card is not at all guaranteed, let alone the fact that it's possible you could finish fourth in that division and still not get in the playoffs because the Central takes the wild card spot. So it's a tough, it's a tough road.

Okay, but with all of that having been said, what if the player they're targeting this summer is Connor McDavid? That would be a good idea. I would target him. Yeah. And then if Edmonton says no, then, I mean, what can you really do then? Well, you move on to Leon Drysidal, I feel like. Oh, okay, yeah, good call.

Yeah. It's just something I thought about. The other thing, I guess, to say about the Oliver Eckman-Larsen Buyout, which will then transition us into a different discussion, is that this apparently costs the coyotes a, roster or a salary retention spot for the next eight years. Is it that long? They're like, that's our whole business model.

What are you doing to us? That's rough. Sorry, guys. And again, this is CBA. This is how the rules are played out. They had retained on Ekman Larson. Yep.

And so because he's bought out, they are now retaining on that buyout cap hit and they're locked in on it. That's, uh, for eight years. Eight years. I mean, I know people could make the argument that that's not fair, but it's how the rules are. So I'm pretty sure this buyouts going to last longer than the coyotes.

Wow. They're going bankrupt. You heard it here first. But yeah, so the other thing about the coyotes, in addition to eating the retained salary buyout, They also bought out Zach Cassian and Patrick Nemeth. Sure. Which, look, neither of those guys is particularly effective at this point in their careers. I don't, you know, I'm not saying like, but now we are in a situation once again where the coyotes will be paying, what is, $23.2 million between retained salary, buyouts and permanent.

LTIR guys next summer. Against the cap. I don't know what that is in actual money. But against the cap, it will be paid. Fair to say in actual money, it's going to be significantly less. Sure. Because that is the game that we're running here. Yeah.

Well, I'm trying to think what the salary floor is next season. It's like $61 million, something like that. That's $1.5. So the coyotes are using like more than a third of that just to get to the the salary floor. They have, looks like, 15 guys signed for next season right now. They still have, and this is next year,

they have Shea Weber, Brian Little, Yaqub Vorecheck, totally forgot about that, him being coyote's property. Yep. By the way, tough for Shea Weber getting traded in the middle of the season, missing out of that Stanley Cup ring, eh? That's crushing for him. Can't win them all.

I guess. Yeah, sort of shade. But yeah. The number, how about this? The number of guys the coyotes have signed beyond this season who will actually play for them,

so like not counting Weber or Ekman Larson or whatever. Let's see. It's four. Okay. And one of those guys is Nick Schmaltz, who they're rumored to be shopping right now. Yeah.

Keller Schmaltz, Kraus, and Vamelka. I've heard all four of those guys' names and trade rumors in the last like three months. I mean, there's all sorts of talk that Keller's not. I mean, this is as close as, like, I've, I've joked and other people have made similar suggestions in the past about, like, you should allow teams to choose to become

expansion teams, like basically get a total reset button. I called it the nuclear option and do what Vegas and Seattle did. This is as close as we've ever seen to a team. Just going out and doing that. Playing in the little tiny, like just absolutely no efforts being made to win for the next couple years. And then clear the deck for whatever comes after that, whether it's a new home or whether it's a new arena. Who knows? But, oh, it's going to be nasty for a while.

It's almost unbelievable that this is going to be allowed to happen. Like, you know, they're not breaking any rules. Yep. And look, I mean. They're gaming the system, whatever you want to say? We see this in, I don't know about basketball. You don't see this in the NFL, but in baseball, we have seen this quite a bit over the years. Yeah, the Oakland athletes.

You're seeing it now with the Oakland A's are, I mean, the coyotes are looking at the Oakland A's like, damn, guys, have some pride. Yeah. But that's an Oakland team that's doing it so that they can move. So I don't know. I mean, I have, those two buyouts do not move the needle at all on anything that matters other than it just sort of reinforces what's going on in Arizona. Yep. And look, they'll, they're going to go into the summer with a bunch of cap space and there's worse things that you could do if you're, You're a free agent who doesn't see a market for yourself, then go and take a one-year deal, go down to Arizona, work on your golf game for a year.

As you said with Egman Larson, someone's got to score for these teams. So maybe it's you and then hit the market next year. That's, you know, I'm boy. Miss the playoffs by 20 points. Wow, that's it, huh? Yeah, that was. Big search coming for the yotes. Their defense right now, not counting like prospects they could call up.

Josh Brown, Yuso Valamaki, Victor Soderstrom, and someone named J.J. Moser, who I don't know who that is. Played all 82 games for them last year, had 31 points. You ever hear about this guy in your fucking life? No, I think that's a fake guy. I think you're doing a bit right now. I wish. I've at least heard of Victor Soderstrom. them. Like, here's the thing.

I went to a coyotes game this past year. I saw this guy play if you played all 82 games. Made no impression. That's tough, man. Aye, aye, aye. Yeah, so that's the coyotes. Let's move on to a team with a bit of a road zero outlook here. And I teased it earlier, I guess.

Jasper back in back in New Jersey eight years I think it's 7-875 is the is the cap it yeah 7-875 because that adds up to his jersey number when you do it over eight years

anybody wouldn't you love to be like some billionaire owner negotiating with some 24 year old who just has a favorite number yeah that's why my number in the in the NHL would be 172.

That's right. Well, you got to sign this guy for 172 million, I guess. What he needs. So, I mean, so here we've got, yet again, the guy in his prime taking the max length deal, even though the caps were to go up. A year before the cap goes up $10 million. Yeah. And in this case, you know, not even, I mean, this feels like a guy where on the

one hand, I was going to say a career year, it really wasn't. He's had sort of two back-to-back career. Yeah, he's a good player, for sure. I don't, I mean, I think you could argue that seven in change is already fair value or maybe even a bargain for him, let alone what it might look like in two or three years. I know we've been over this a million times. I know that immediately somebody's going to say 63 million is a lot of money sure it is and yes I concede I would probably

not turn down a 63 million dollar contract to do anything so yeah I mean you don't fault the guy for taking it but again you're just sort of left scratching your head at these uh yeah look I mean the devils are very well set up

with their top of the lineup in terms of cap hit, especially once the cap starts going up with Hughes and Heysher and now Jasper Bratt. And now you turn to the Tim O'Meyer discussion and what does that look like? And can you convince him that, hey, this is the range that all our top players go in or, you know, it's something different. He's, Meyer's an older guy, not old, but he's in an age where maybe going for the long term makes more sense. but I don't know. It's not to turn everything back to the Leafs,

but Dom has a very interesting piece on The Athletic today where he's just looking at Austin Matthews and he's like, he's again making the case that elite players, and maybe Jesper Brett, you don't put in that category, but saying like these elite players should be taking short-term deals for bigger capits. I don't know.

Sure. Again, 63 billion bucks, and you don't have to worry about it for eight years, I get the appeal very much, especially when you can lock in to living in New Jersey for all of your 20s. But I'm just a little surprise that some of these guys are pushing for it.

And I can't wait to continue to be a fan of the only team in the entire 32-team league where the players don't do this and just continually kick their team in the balls every time it's time to negotiate. It's very fun. Yeah. So the other thing that goes with this,

well, two things, I guess, but the first thing is that the latest quote I saw from Tom Fitzgerald was like, yeah, Tim O'Meier, like, wants to be here for eight years. We're going to work to make that happen in the next few days here, something like that, along those lines. Which is interesting because

the brat deal I kind of thought would come in at, you know, the same number as Jack Hughes, which is eight, and he came in a little under eight. And so my question is, like, is it a blanket thing of like, no, the forwards on this team max is $8 million. Are you better than Jack Hughes? That is the absolute greatest thing that a, that a team can have.

We've seen it in the past, right? Where you get somebody, a key piece of your team locked in on a bargain deal, which on its own is great. You kidding me? You got Patrice Bergeron. You got Nathan McKinney. Well, it's funny you say,

you say Bergeron because they nuked that, like almost immediately with a not very good cratesy contract. True. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. They're, but at the very least,

like they used it as a, it becomes an anchor, right? Yeah, it came back again with Pasternak, where, like, they were like, oh, Taylor Hall, I mean, are you David Pasternak? He makes six in the, and two-thirds. You can only make six, and Taylor Hall had to be like, I guess so, you know? Yeah, it, you see this all across the league. Like, I mean, just to get a Jack Hughes on that contract, again, I'm meeting a dead horse,

absolute monster, I mean, dude got his 64 million. Great. he left tens of millions of dollars on the table. Great deal for the New Jersey Devils. But if you can then turn around and get everyone else on your team to use that as a de facto cap, oh my God. I mean, you're laughing. You are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's a little different because technically Douggy Hamilton makes $9 million against the cap. And so the question is, is that the ceiling, or is the Hughes contract the seal? Because like as much as I really like Tim O'Meyer and have for a long time, I don't know if that's a player I want to go eight years, nine million with. You know, like that's, but eight years, eight million. It's so funny that like one million dollars against, you know, with a cap that's about to explode,

I'm like, what are we doing here? But it is a little. I'm just wondering how much higher they'd be willing to go. Like, eight feels like a bargain. Nine feels like maybe not so much. And at that point, it's like, how thin are we going to slice this, I guess? But I don't know. Like, this is a really good player.

He would really help them. But here is the problem, I think, is that they are apparently maybe in on Connor Hellebuck and Conor Hellebuck would be amenable to being traded there according to Pierre Lebrun and Connor Hellebuck wants something in the neighborhood of $9.5 million. We're talking

Andre Vasselovsky money basically. Yeah. Um And like can you have even with the cap about to go up quite a bit, can you have what, five guys making north of seven. I feel like you're baiting me with this question. No, I really don't know what the answer, because like...

I think you can, yes. I think you, north of seven, yes. I think seven million is, is not big money in the NHO anymore once they get, you know, once you look forward at what the cap's going to do. Well, okay, let me rephrase then. Heeshire at 725, Brat at 7-875, Hughes at 8, Hamilton at 9, Hellebuck, 9 and a half, 9 of a quarter, let's say. That's, you know, you're pushing up on 40 mil at that point. Yeah. And the hellibook one is the one where I'd be worried. More so with term, to be honest with you.

Sure. In the report that said he wants 9.5, did it talk about term? Like, are we talking eight years here? I would imagine that it's pretty decently long term, but I don't remember specifically that it said like he wants max length. I run screaming from that for any goaltender, I think. Let alone a 30-year-old who's played 60 games a year or whatever. Yeah.

And I mean, you know, like you're, you've got the Brobosky deal as one maybe extreme. And then you've got Vasilevsky you could point to and say, well, that worked so far. Vasilevsky's also. But even knowing that, yeah, even knowing that, I would, like, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if we're talking like Shasturkin, maybe, because he's still young enough, like, but even then, I'm very, very nervous about locking in on any goal tender. I think the, we, you know, we say with any of these deals, what's the upside, what's the downside? And when it comes to goalies, the downside is cataclysmic.

Yeah. Um, so, boy, this is crazy. It's how much time has flown. I guess. This Vasilevsky contract is entering its fourth year this coming season. He's already done three years at nine and a half. Yep. That's just the classic, like, want to feel old bullshit, you know?

And, yeah, like, there's a difference between signing a 25, I think, year old to an eight-year deal at nine and a half. half versus a guy who will be 30 when that contract starts. It's, it's tough. I, I got no, like, I, obviously I'm a big Connor Hallibuck fan. I think he's one of the best goalies in the league, and that's on a team that isn't particularly good. Uh, now imagine what he could do on a team that is the devils, you know, like, is actually good.

Um, but at the same time, it's like, I don't, I don't know, man. Like, that's just. What you would have to give up to get him if you want him this summer, plus all that money, it's, I can see the argument for and against, let's put it that way. I guess,

I guess my point is, you know, how likely is it to become a, uh, Sergei Bavrovsky contract versus a Henrik Lundquist where up until like the last two years of that deal, Lundquist was like really good still. you're basically saying to yourself,

do I think this guy's a future Hall of Famer at that point? Yep. You know? And maybe you do think that. Again, I can see the argument, but I don't know. It'll be interesting. Interesting to watch. It will be.

Yep. If they're not like the team to watch the summer, because this is the other thing about them, they're technically under the cap floor right now. Yeah. So they're the team to watch as far as like teams that are on the way up getting better. There are other teams to watch Vancouver, Calgary, that have to figure out how to stay where they're at. There's going to be some teams taking steps back.

But the devils are very much in the driver's seat as far as getting quite a bit better. Buffalo to some extent also in that mix. Ottawa might think they are. Oh, they definitely think they are. Well, Ottawa, the reason I put that as a might, I'm not even so much knocking the team, but I just think the Pyradorian situation there is so weird where... It certainly is.

He knows he's probably not even the GM past the summer, so what do you do to keep your job or audition for the next one or any of that stuff? But, yeah, it's And, you know, I'll tell you, the Red Wings are only about five years away from being good. So just patience, Detroit fans. Can I read you a funny quote that just came across the wire here? Please do.

This is John LeClair, works for the Flyers now. The former guys who have played here understand the culture. And I think that's one thing that we've talked about, is that we've gotten away from that a little bit, and we want to get back to the flyer culture we had. Things are going fucking great in Philly, man. Unreal. Oh, boy, that's been the problem in Philadelphia.

Yep. Not enough former flyer guys. Not enough. Not throwing the body around out there anymore. Paying tribute to how they played literally 50 years ago. 97, yeah. When they were good. Fuck, man.

By the way, we didn't, well, hold on. We didn't talk about their radical new jersey redesign. Oh, yeah, they're orange. Yeah, they've switched from orange to now it's going to be like an orange. Yeah, I would say even verging on tangerine, perhaps. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it really symbolizes the changing of the guard there. Well, it's all about the culture for me, you know?

It's all about the culture. I'm just going to go to that tweet and just read the quote tweets for the rest of the morning and laugh. Yeah, you can't lose. All right, we'll be right back. episode of Puck Soup is sponsored by Better Help. If you've got people around you, friends and family, that need your help, need your support, of course you're going to offer that. Of course, you're going to do everything you can to help them out. But when you spend a lot of your time thinking about other people, spending your time giving, dedicating yourself to others,

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And let's talk a little bit more on the speculation front. Seems like the sharks are going to try to move Eric Carlson this summer. Yeah. Yeah, emphasis on the try would be my guess. Yeah. I said it at the deadline. That was the time to do it. That was the time when he was in the middle of not just a great year by his standards,

but a historically great year. And when teams knew that they were getting that playoff run out of him, that was the time to do it. And at the time, lots of people said, you know what? But it's same old song and dance, right? It's too complicated. Maybe they wait till the summer. They just got to wait till the summer.

No way you could do it. Even though they knew since halfway point in the season that this was an option. Didn't do it. Kick the can down the road. I get to some extent the logic that says there's more cap space freed up in the summer. But there isn't that much, at least for. good teams that presumably would want a 30-something defenseman. I don't know, man.

I don't, I'll be surprised if they pull it off. And if they pull it off in any sort of way that Sharks fans feel good about, I, this is one of those things where I wouldn't mind being wrong. I wouldn't mind being wrong here because Eric Carlson's cool as hell. It'd be nice to see him on a contender somewhere. Yep. I just think that if there was ever. going to be a time to do it. It was at the deadline. And as soon as they started talking about,

well, it's too hard. We'll do it in the summer. I just felt like we're going to get to the summer. It's not going to be there. And we're going to keep repeating this over and over again. Yeah. We'll see. I guess what I would say, excuse me, I guess what I would say about this is that the only reason I think this is an actual possibility, because I kind of didn't feel like I wanted it to be one at the deadline, but I was also, I think, kind of diluted myself a little bit that it could happen. Like, oh, they might actually have something interesting happen at the deadline, not so fast, you know. But every Sharks writer seems to be writing a, okay, what happens in the post-Aric

Carlson era thing? And when it's that kind of across the board, not that there are a ton of shots, this is Toronto or Montreal, right? but when it's that kind of across-the-board situation, that feels like a little more where there's smoke, there's fire, this is going to happen kind of a situation to me. But that's... I guess I don't doubt that they're open to it now.

Well, I think... Maybe shopping him, but just... Yeah, what I'm saying, I guess, is that I think this means they're not just shopping. dropping him, they're pretty convinced it's just going to get locked in. You know what I'm? Like, this is going to happen. And maybe that means like you get a kind of bad return for him or whatever.

But at that point, maybe the sharks just feel like it's better to be out from under an $11.5 million dollar contract. I mean, as good as he was last season, right? Like, they caught lightning in a bottle. Yeah. Look at Brad Burns, right? They essentially gave him away for not quite nothing, but pretty much nothing. And they had to retain. As close to nothing as you can get.

And they had to retain. Like, they're retaining on this, one way or another. For sure. And they have all the room in the world to do it. And if you can do that to get a better return, right? Because, I mean, you look at the Carlson deal is another one of those ones where between him and Doughty, we thought the market was being reset and it didn't. They signed their deals.

We all went, that's the new benchmark for elite defensemen. And then all the elite defensemen went, no, I'm happy with nine and change. So those two guys are out ahead of everybody else. So you look at it and you go, man, even for a Norris winner, 11.5 is too much. But what if it's 9.5? And what if it's 7.5? What if it's 7.5? What if it's 6?

Like at what point? If they got the sharks to go down to 6. on a deal on a deal with what three years left for still four years left on a guy who's 33 and has not been healthy until last year but yeah I mean like if I'm the sharks now obviously that's a huge chunk of money you know a huge chunk of cap hit and and also a huge chunk of real dollars that you're committing so if if I'm doing that then I expect to get a return that is worth a Norris winner on a reasonable contract. I think part of it is

imagine Eric Carlson's contract ended this summer after the year he just had. And he hits the open market and he says I'm 33, I want a four year deal. Where does the market land on that?

That's sort of the part whatever that number is that's what the San Jose has to come down to as a starting point. And then you probably have to come down further than that in order to get a team to give up assets rather than... Yeah, maybe.

It's tough. Like I say, it would love to be wrong, but I really feel like if it was going to be done, the time to do it was to put your head down and figure out a way to get it done. And again, like, it's too hard during the season. Nonsense. NBA teams pull off, deals that are 10 times more complicated all the time.

It can be done. They just chose not. The only difference is that they have a soft cap. yeah but they also have you know there's the trades have to be much more balanced than they do in the NHL it's like and the cap in the NBA my understanding at least is you know much more complicated than the it's very complicated so you know this idea that oh it's too hard in the NHL nonsense now and and I should say like for all I know my career was was working hard to make that happen at the deadline and just the offers weren't there.

Sure. In which case, fine. I'm just not convinced they're going to be there this time around. Yeah. But yeah, Shang Pang, who's a really good reporter, has like a huge article that was like, okay, what's going to happen if you don't, if you don't have Eric Carlson? And it's like, you know, nothing good, right? Like, is the best defenseman on the sharks at that point, like Mario Ferraro?

Like, he's an okay defenseman. But like, if he's your number one or number two guy, yikes. But, you know, if you're going into the rebuild, then that's what you're going to do, right? I mean, you're probably stuck. You're still stuck with the Vlasic contract, which is awful. But with three years left, like, there's at least, you know, get the light at the end of the tunnel. Logan Couture, you're probably stuck with, and he's your captain. Like, you know, you got to have somebody around.

That's... Yeah, that's why there's a salary floor, right? Like, you got to get there. So... Being happy to pay the long time guys. And like you said, your captain, yeah, that's fine. So, I don't know, we'll see. We've been saying for years that San Jose is a team that needs to rebuild, but it's hard because

of the contracts. They got rid of one last year in Brent Byrne. And, hey, Burns was great in Carolina. So that's, if you're Mike Greer, that's one of the things you point to and go, you know. Red Burns was a lot older than Eric Carlson when we made that trade, and he looked great in a new environment. Yeah. Just imagine what happens when you get our aging defensemen on your actual good team. Whoa.

Yep. So, yeah, that'll be really interesting to watch. I would imagine that happens, like, at the draft or whatever around it. Or not. Yeah, or not is right. But like just by the time we do next week's episode from Nashville. Definitely once you get into free agency, all that cap space is gone on day one. So you've missed your opportunity there unless something really strange happens.

Although it should be said, I guess, that like the last time Eric Carlson got traded, it was like whatever, the day before training camp hope. Yeah, that is true. So. But what I'm saying is it either is going to happen at the draft or in September or not at all would be my guess. Like once the season starts, I don't think it's going to happen for all the reasons we just talked about. Anyway, let's talk about Metme, Michkov. Have you seen the big rumors out of both Canada and Russia at this point? I've seen a ton of speculation about where he's going to go.

But I don't think this specific. rumor I have seen directly. So I believe it was certainly the first time I saw this was that there was a report out of Russia that was basically saying like he's going to Washington. You don't have to worry about the rest. Like, you know, is he going to go three, four, five, whatever. No, he's going to Washington at eight. You'll see.

And then Elliot Friedman, you know, I don't even know that he was like saying this around the report out of Russia as opposed to he got this kind of independently. But basically said like it looks like maybe Mitzchkov is trying to make it clear to everyone who drafts him. I'm not going to be super excited to play for you unless you're Washington. I don't think Elliot said Washington specifically. I think he was more vague about it. But that plus the Russian report kind of, again, makes it feel like, oh, he's just going to say, I'm only playing for Washington, or I'll be happy to stay in the fucking KHL.

And this is, you know, obviously Ovechkin being in Washington. They have the, yeah, the pipeline or whatever. Yeah, they have the pipeline. You would assume a guy, a kid like, Mitchkov would love the idea of playing with Ovechkin, although Ovechkin's got three years left on his deal. So the timeline doesn't exactly match up, but there would be ways to fix that. And you also, knowing Ovechkin politically, you figure if there's any concern about this kid's not going to be allowed to come over, that that would be less of a problem with Washington than anyone else.

I mean, it does make a lot of sense. Yeah. If you're a team out, like, I feel like there's a consensus forming that under ordinary circumstances, Michkoff would be maybe the number two pick, probably number three. And in a typical draft year, he could be a number one, like a legitimate number one guy. Yes, totally. But that given the circumstances around him, you probably prove. Carlson and Smith ahead of him,

and the real watch now begins at five. If you're one of those five, six, seven teams, does it, even if you feel like this guy only wants to go to Washington, are you not at least considering taking him and then saying, all right, like, make a deal with us if you, rather than let him fall down while you take B-tier prospects instead? Yeah. Yeah.

for those who don't know, we should say the thing with him is that he is signed with his, with S.K.A. St. Petersburg through 2026, I want to say. And, you know, there's absolutely nothing that prevents him from resigning with them, even longer than that. So he does hold to like a decent amount of cards or leverage or whatever you want to say. but it's interesting you know we were talking we've had a lot of discussion maybe not on this show but like just broadly speaking there's been a lot of discussion about do you think Connor Bedard would refuse to play for Chicago and would demand a trade and all

no I don't think that you know um but you know he has he has some amount of power here And like you say, I don't know that that's enough to dissuade four or five teams from passing on him before he gets to Washington at eight. It's interesting. But it makes things interesting, that's for sure. You look at, again, if we assume the top four is locked in, and that's not a sure thing. Like, Columbus or San Jose, you know, maybe they take a big swing. But you get to Montreal at five, there seems to be a lot of noise coming out of Montreal that they're not. interested. Now, as Corey Pramman pointed out, he did a mock draft today, like last year with

Montreal, we didn't know who they were taking first overall until the moment they announced it. So they're pretty good at keeping, keeping things tight. But most of the mocks I've seen, most of the speculation, has them going with Reimbocker, the defenseman, the top defenseman in the draft. Then you get to Arizona, which, I mean, who even knows, right? On the one hand, in theory, it's perfect because they're not even trying to ice an NHL caliber team for the next two years. So, you know, why, who even cares if this kid's not coming over? But also such a mess that you would think may be the least attractive destination for him. But again, you've got three years to figure it out.

The real interesting one to me is number seven, is Philadelphia, right before Washington at eight. Yeah. I mean, this is a team that, on the one hand, they need help now but for all of their constant refusing to look towards

the future this would be like just a great way to signal like this is this is where we're pointing to and you don't allow him to go one pick later

to Washington and then you got to watch this guy in your division for 10 years lighting you up every time that's the one and I've seen a lot of like Flyers fans going, I'm going to be so pissed off if they don't take him if he's there for us.

And yet, most of the mocks and stuff I see don't have them taking him. Yeah, I'm looking at it here. He's listed at six feet 159. That's not Flyers hockey. Yeah, that's right. How does that fit the culture? It's not going to fit with the culture. They've, it wasn't the legion of little tiny guys.

Yeah. I don't think that's a. wrestling tag team we can steal the name of. No, I don't think it is either. So, yeah, that's a tough one for the Flyers, but it'll be, look, I was talking to someone the other day about like, oh, someone was asking me, oh, you're going to Nashville for the NHL awards, and I'm getting in, like, in theory, I'm getting in like late afternoon, early evening there.

And they were like, oh, you're going to miss the awards. Yeah, that's right. The most boring award, the only interesting thing that's going to happen at this award is who wins the Norris. And even that won't be like really interesting, you know, because everything else feels extremely sewn up. And so, and then, you know, with the, with the draft, okay, Bedard, Fantilli, Carlson, maybe, like, would anybody be surprised if Carlson goes too over Fantilli? not really, but that feels like, that feels like the order.

And so the only intrigue here is like, is he gonna drop all the way to eight? You know, so like, that's something. That's what we're all gonna be talking about all day on fucking Wednesday. And there is at least some, also some speculation that if he does drop to eight, that he might not be Washington's guy.

Like Washington might be his pick, but maybe, maybe he goes even further. It's definitely the most interesting situation of the draft. I would agree with you. That's not even really close at this point. Yep. All right.

Why don't we move into a game now? And I got to look up who sent this to me because this was a really good call by whoever it was. But this is called the Immaculate Grid game. I don't know if people have seen this where it's like baseball is where this originates from. This was sent by a guy named Robert Andre. So Robert, we salute you.

But basically, you picture like a three by three grid. And, you know, the horizontal and the vertical X and Y or whatever you want to say. I don't know how the spreadsheet terms work, you know. But you just picture that and guys have to fit into like the little category. So, for example, across the top, let's say it says, you know, Boston, Buffalo, Chicago. And then the first row instead of column says New York Rangers. So you would have to come up with a guy who played for both the Bruins and the Rangers, the Rangers and the Sabres, and the Rangers and Chicago.

It sounds a little, I'm making it sound a little more complicated than it actually is. If you want to really get help visualizing this, go to Immaculategrid.com again. And if you're a baseball fan, definitely do it because it's very fun. Yeah, it seems like it would be really fun, except I don't know enough about baseball. Like I'm looking at it right now. Can I name anybody in Orioles history who had a 40 saved season? No, I can't, you know. Can I name anybody from the Orioles who also played for the Cubs?

I don't think so. Yeah. So. I will admit, I went into it, like, I'm a lapsed baseball fan, but I was really big into it as a kid. So I went into it feeling confident, and I got humbled pretty bad by the website. So I'm feeling confident about the hockey version, but also very aware that this is classic, tougher than it seems stuff. All right. So here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to send you the grid. Oh, okay. in one second, and I will tell the people right now what the grid is. It's just, again, like being able to visualize it for Sean will probably help him. And of course, you know, we had to put our little spin on it. And so this game is called, of course, Immaculate Gord. There it is. I like that.

Really easy. And, yeah, so I just sent it to Sean. And so across the top, it says Buffalo, Pittsburgh. 400 career assists and the rows say Vegas, the Islanders, and Carolina. These are all fully randomized. I used a thing to pull random teams and to pull random assists or assists, like stats, awards, whether they won a championship, that kind of thing. So these are fully randomized boards that I then went and made sure there is at least one correct answer for every single one of them.

So you can you can do all three. I put together three. We might not play three. But I put together three. So you could in theory complete all three. And just to be clear where it says, for example, the 400 career assists, this is someone who played for the team, but do they have to have the four. 400 career assists with that team? Not with that team.

Just in their whole career. Because the Vegas thing would be a little tough. Yes. And I'm going to give you a hint here. I think there's only one guy in Vegas's history with 400 career assists, I think. Oh, boy. So let's start with Buffalo Vegas. Who you got?

Well, let me tell you what. I might need to jump around a little bit, but I feel like the Vegas one is okay. Buffalo Vegas, let's go with the obvious Jack Eichel. Yes, correct. Also, I should say you can't use the same two twice. Yes. Or the same name twice. So if Eichl had 400 career assists, he doesn't, but let's say he did.

You couldn't use him in both slots. Now, am I right also that I think in the website version at least, like you get nine guesses, any wrong guess, like you lose a guess and then that's your score. So you don't get to sit there just pumping names into this thing. So you got to feel pretty confident. Correct. But I do. Yeah, you should. This isn't as hard as I thought.

There are more difficult ones coming up later. Yeah, okay. So if we move across Vegas, Pittsburgh. Yep. Again, reasonably easy one, Mark Andre Fleury. Sure. And then Vegas 400 career assists. I'm going to go with, again, not a guy who's done it in Vegas, but I'm sure Phil

Kessel must have 400 career assists by now. You know? I didn't think of Phil Kessel. Let me double check on that. It does require a little bit of double checking on this, unfortunately. You are correct, yeah. So there were actually two. I won't say the other one right now,

but that's not the one I wrote down. I'll put it that way. All right. So moving back, going to Rope 2, this is now the Islanders Row. For Buffalo, go Pat LaFontaine. Sure. It is a pretty clear one.

and for Islanders Pittsburgh, let's go Brian Trache. Yep. That's not the only one, but that is the most obvious one for sure. And then for Islanders 400 career assists, I would assume there's a lot, but I'll go to the obvious Denny Potvin. Yeah, I would think that's right. That's, again, not the guy I wrote down. Okay. I wrote down a different guy, but.

Okay. Yeah, Potvin had 742, so you got in there pretty easily. Okay. Carolina, California Buffalo, I'm going to pass over that one for a second. Okay. Carolina Pittsburgh, give me Jordan Stahl. That's the guy I wrote down, yeah. Okay.

Now the 400 assists Carolina, oh, Ron Francis. Sure. Yeah, I wrote down Eric Stahl, but. Yes. Yeah. So you got Buffalo, Carolina, is the only one on the grid you haven't nailed. You know what? I was struggling with this one, but didn't Eric Stahl play for Buffalo?

You know what? He did. All right. Thank you. Thank you. You gave it to me, man. Now I'm just trying to think, because, I mean, there's got to be a million guys who played for both of those teams. But now...

The one I wrote down is Jeff Skinner. That's the one that jumped off the page to me. That would have been a bigger one. Yeah. Okay. The Vegas, the Golden Night I wrote down with 400 career assists is Alex Petrangelo. Okay. And the Islander with 400 career assists I wrote down is Alexei Yashin.

Sure. Yeah. Peerterger's would be up there too. Yeah. I also had Kyle Okpozo for Buffalo Islanders and Teddy Bluger for Pittsburgh. Vegas. Oh boy. Yeah. Would not have got, don't think I would have got there, but okay. That was good. Yep. This feels like we should stop

here because I did well. I got one more for you. Yeah. I think you're going to like this one. Oh boy. At least one more. We could do it even a third if you wanted to, but I just sent you the second one for those obviously who aren't Sean and can't see it. Across the top is Chicago, Ottawa, and Toronto. And up and down is Boston, Colorado, 100 penalty minute season. Oh, boy. Okay.

All right. Let me knock out the Toronto one first. So Toronto, Boston, Phil Kessel. Sure. Toronto, Colorado, Nazim Kadri. Mm-hmm. Sure. 100 penalty minute season.

We'll go Tiger Williams. Great. Could do Domi, could do Wendell. I did, I had, I had Domi wrote down personally. Okay, so now, Chicago, Boston, we can just go Phil Esposito. Sure. Chicago, Colorado. Let me come back to that.

Chicago 100 penalty minutes Bob Probert. Mm-hmm. Ottawa, Boston. I'm going to give you a very, very weird one. Okay. Only because I wrote about this guy last week, and he was in my, like, oh, that was it. It was like, who didn't he play for a quiz?

And I was like, I don't remember this guy playing for Ottawa. Martin LaPointe of all the random guys played for Ottawa and got the big contract from Boston. Great. Ottawa, Colorado would be Matt Duchenne. And Ottawa 100 penalty minutes would be Chris Neal. Sure. So that leaves me Chicago, Colorado.

Yep. Feels like it shouldn't be that. It was tougher than I thought it would be to come up with such a guy. I'll say that. But you can't say this guy didn't play for both of those teams. Okay. I'm kind of going through the current roster in my head and I'm not fine anything so I'm doing my usual thing of jumping back. Now, I take it to Colorado is Colorado.

We're not going back into the Nordique days. I can't like, I can't go like Michelle Goulet on you here. Right. Okay. Hmm. Oh, no, no, you could do that. It's the franchise. It's not.

Oh, it is the franchise. Okay. So I've got Michelle Gouleta as my. as my answer if I need it. But I'm just, I'm kind of intrigued now, trying to think of a Colorado avalanche player who also played for Chicago. God, there must be. Well, you nailed it, so that's fine. Okay. But, but the guy I wrote down there was Jack Johnson played for both those teams this year. Would not have got that. Yeah. I didn't watch hockey this year, so it's. That's smart. It's fine. Why would you?

All right. Let's do one more. Yeah, I'm, I'm a, I'm a joke. I'm getting greedy here. I'm gonna... I think this is the most fiendish one. Oh, no. Spit out. Yeah. Hold on one second.

I will read it for everybody else. Across the top, you have Vancouver, the Rangers, and 60-assist single season. Ooh. And then up and down, you have Minnesota, Winnipeg slash Atlanta, just to all let me be clear. And Rocket Richard Richard winner. Oh, my lord.

Yeah, it's a tough one. Wow. And Rocket Richard winner, I mean, this is not to be stupid, but this is like when the trophy existed. We're not saying you didn't lead the league in goals. Wayne Gretzky never won the Rocket Richard. Correct. Yeah. All right.

Well, you know, I would probably accept Wayne Gretzky. As a Rocket Richard Richard winner guy. I'll put Connor McDavid in that spot, let's say, for this year, right? For which spot? The Rocket 60 assists. Yeah, that's got to be right, yeah. Okay. Now from here, this.

You know, it's funny, he's not on the Rocket Richard Winner's page, so I didn't write him down there. I think one other recent. He has not put his hand on it specifically, so. that's uh well just not this season i guess he never led the league in goals before this year huh i don't think he did yeah all right anyway no that's not the guy so the rest of this is the rest of this is tough right so vancouver minnesota we can't do brock bessor yet right um the i will say the guy i had no recollection whatsoever of this guy playing for the wild uh the one guy i think there were two guys who had ever done it

But the one guy that I thought was more of a, like a well-known player, I was like, that guy played for Minnesota? Huh. Okay. Oh, boy. Okay. We're going to come back to that one. And I feel like that's going to be a one that snaps me.

Vancouver, Winnipeg slash Atlanta, Tyler Myers. Yeah, of course. Right? Yep. Now, who from Vancouver has won the Rock at Richard? This is actually an easy one. I will be very disappointed if you struggle with this. Well, okay, but because Pavel Burray never won the Rock of Richard because it didn't exist,

even though he led the league in goals many times. Is that true? I certainly... It came in in 99, I want to say. I don't think he did. Let me double check this because that's the guy I have written down. Oh, you know what? You know what?

He didn't win it with Vancouver, but he was... You're right. He doesn't have to have won it with the team. And yes, okay. So Pavow. Yeah, he won it twice in a row. Wow. Yes.

Yeah, he rocked. Okay, so that's good because I was thinking with the Rangers, I'm like, geez, did anybody on the Rangers ever win the Rock of a Char? But they don't have to have been a Ranger. Correct. Do it, although I'm still not completely true. Okay. So I'm going to skip the Vancouver, Minnesota.

Let's go. Let's do the Ranger. Rangers, Minnesota would be, let's say, Marion Gabburick. That's who I wrote down, yeah. Rangers and Jets. Again, I think this is a very obvious one. Really? Mm-hmm.

Okay, let me, Rangers, Jets slash Thrashers. I'm thinking back to those thrashers days. People are screaming. I don't know if, okay, then I don't think this is the one, but I'm going to go Mark Savard. I think he gets me Atlanta. I don't think he played for the Ranger. Oh, he did start with the Rangers.

That's right. Yeah, then you're right. Yeah, that's, no, I'll just say it. The guy I had written down is the captain of the New York Rangers, Jacob Truba. Yes. Oh, geez. Yeah, of course, yeah. People are right to have screamed out.

And a Ranger who won the Rocket Richard, boy, that's... There is, I'll say this. there is one who is an actual, like, put his hands on the trophy winner. Yeah. Like, not a guy who led goals. Oh, right, because I can't use, I can't use Burry again. No, you cannot.

Aha. Burry is the only one for Vancouver. Yeah. So I had to go, so if I had done this, if I gone New York first and, like, gone Burry, that would have been a right answer, but I would have. like soft lock myself out. Yep. Old school video game style.

I like that. I'm pretty sure, I'm assuming we're counting Rick Nash, right? We are kind of right. Okay, so Rick Nash. Give me Rick Nash there. Rick Nash is the correct answer. The only other correct answer besides Burray.

Okay. Oh, boy. Minnesota Wilde 60 assists. season. There's one ever as far as I could find. Oh, wow. And is it Gabbrick? Because...

No, Gabbick never had more than 44. I just looked it up. I got to say Caprizov then. That is the one guy. Yep, that's correct. All right. Winnipeg slash Atlanta. 60 assist season.

Okay, so I'm nervous here. I'm thinking back to the Thrasher days. you've got Colville Chocosa, Healy Savard, I guess I already said, but has anyone done it for Winnipe? I'm going to say

Blake Wheeler. That's correct. Savard would have also been an acceptable answer. He did it four times. Wheeler, I think, only did it once or twice. Wow. What about Shifley? Because that was who I was

winding up to say before I, I threw a wheeler up. Mark Shifley, 60 assist season. Most is 50. And this lands me back to Vancouver, Minnesota. Yep. And I feel like I... One notable guy, I think.

I might be missing. I'm literally... I feel like Dave Steve here, because I'm literally 26 out of 27 to the perfect game. Mm-hmm. But... That's right.

Oh, this is a... John Boy is going to make a documentary about me getting this far. Vancouver, Minnesota. This is a really tough one. I also have that anxiety that I'm going to totally airball it and name a guy who didn't play for either team. Sure.

Patrice Berserat, wait, shit. No, God damn it. All right. Oh, man, all right. I got to go quick here because I don't want to have everyone just listen to me forever. But any goalies? Let me hit you with a hint. Okay.

Defensemen bounced around a lot. Defensemen who bounced around a lot. Yeah. And I'll also say Vancouver probably his iconic team. Like, obviously this guy's not a Hall of Famer, but if he were to go into the hall, I think he would be wearing a Vancouver Canucks jersey if I had to, you know, not that it works that way, but you know what I mean.

All right. I am going to then say, Oh, man. This is just a classic guy that... Oh, man. No, he couldn't have... I don't even know that he played that far into the 2000s. That guy played.

That guy didn't. Okay, you know what? I'll say... Yerke Lume. Let me double check on that. Well, that's not a good sign. No, that's not. That's not correct.

Oh. The answer... Burdo Kelly doubles down the line. The answer is far. as I can tell is Willie Mitchell. Oh, wow. Yeah. You weren't going to, like, that's a tough point. I wasn't getting Willie, Willie Mitchell, no, that is.

No, that's a tough one. Oh, boy, that's a, that's a rough one. But like, I'm looking at Willie Mitchell's career and they're like, he played a, he played a couple seasons with the devils. He did? Oh, okay. And then he went to Minnesota. Oh, I guess I remember that. Yeah, maybe.

And then he played for Dallas for 16 games. Well, that doesn't sound right. What about Vancouver? Yeah, of course, I remember him in Vancouver. You remember him in L.A.? You played three years there while you were a hockey writer. No recollection of that. Thank you.

He won cups there, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah, both of them. As a matter of fact, and I was just like, I don't remember that. Sorry. And then he wrapped up his career with Florida, which I weirdly do remember. I don't know why I remember that. But yeah.

You know what? I was, because I'm just looking it up now, I was very close. The guy that I wanted to say was, for some reason, with Jill Bear Brulet, and he did not play for either. So now I got to figure out who I was actually thinking of. Oh, you know, it's ringing a bell in my head, too, of who you would have been thinking of, but I can't zero in on it either. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good game.

I like that a lot. Yep, Immaculate Gord. Hey folks, if you want to like, you know, put your computer skills to the test and just do like one where I, where we can do it all day and I don't have to like think about it. That'd be, that'd be fucking sick. Next time I might have to hit you with one. I welcome it, yeah. I'll even, I can even send you the thing that shows how I randomized it. Okay.

Oh, I wouldn't randomize it. I would pick the absolute hardest. Yeah, you'd be like, okay, you're going to remember this. The Seattle Crackin and the New York Americans? What the hell? Newsie LaLond. Uh-oh. But yeah, so why don't we take another break and we'll be right back for a little bit of Hall of Fame discussion.

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Then we're going to take a break for a few hours and circle back, which is why you're getting this episode so late. Maybe I should have said this all at the top. But yeah, so we'll, we're recording this. It's currently 1130 in the morning. They're announcing the Hall of Fame class at three. We're going to circle back and come back and talk about all that once it all gets announced. So first, let's talk about what the,

what are, you know, hopes and dreams and expectations and all that are for this, for this class. Right. Yeah. And then we can, and then we'll just time travel forward and it'll be us being mad that. Yep. That's right. Some dude from the 70s had got put on the team. They're just not, that's an underrepresented group.

It sure is, yeah. So, okay, so Henrik Lunkwist is the big first-time candidate that everybody a lock. It thinks has to be a lock. And from there it kind of opens up. The other big name that absolutely has to go in, and we've been saying this for a year, I'm going to assume you're on board,

is Alexander McGilney. This seems to have tipped from five years ago he was one of the guys that people thought should be in, and now it's like a year ago, maybe two years ago, he became the number one guy that wasn't in and now it's to the point where people are just mad because it feels like the committee is just

flipping us off that they year after year do not put this guy in so I'm going to assume that when you know in a few hours slash a few minutes for for you lovely listeners we're going to be talking about how great it is that he finally made it he did it happy

and then you've got the two spots opened up and it sort of becomes this feels like a great chance to get some of the holdovers in because they have four spots on the men's side. They don't have to use all four. And I'm like the women's side. They're going to, they will be. They usually do actually use them.

And then after that, like, Paul Padutti, the guy who's doing like a lot of Hall Fame stuff who sort of emerged over the last couple years and he's got models and stuff that are very cool, did a kind of just for fun project where he looked 10 years into the future and tried to do the next 10 Hall of Fame classes. And what was interesting about that

is how many spots of those potential 40 are kind of already spoken for as far as guys who are retiring. You never know, and you have to do some projection ahead. But there's, if you don't get in this year, it starts to get pretty tight as far as future years. So who would you put in with your last two spots, assuming you would use them? And who do you think might go in that you would really be unsupportable?

You know, I honestly might use my two slots and call it a night. Really? You're going on small hall here. Yeah. And not because I'm particularly a small hall guy, honestly. like I think I have been in the past and then I've been like well if all these guys are getting in then I guess I have to be a big hall guy blah blah blah blah but yeah it's like Lungquist McGilney and then who's the next closest guy that's even like we did our uh our exercise of the athletic where we get 18 people together and we mimic the committee's process right and we actually only wound up with two players in. And it was interesting because it's, it's

again, like the way the process works, I don't think any of us went in saying this needs to only be a two player season. The two players were runquist and McGillney, by the way. But because of the way the voting works and if people get dropped off the ballot and then if they don't pick up enough votes,

that's how it worked out. The closest who didn't get in who fell a few votes short was Sergei Gongchar. And gone. I can, I could go either way. Gonchar is a guy that I've been kind of a no one for years and I've sort of tilted over to maybe and almost into yes. In fact, with the athletic, I had him no on my first ballot and then I flipped to yes on the second ballot, knowing he was close and it wasn't. Ladies and gentlemen, this is a man without conviction. A huge flip-flopper. The argument against him has always been that he was never a Norris finalist. So you're looking at a guy with 19, 20, career, but the old, you know, the accusation of that he was a compiler, but never considered

one of the greats. But the flip side of that is he was high up in the Norris voting for a very long time. There's like an eight or ten years stretch where he was top five, top seven, top eight. So, you know, I don't mind a guy not winning the Norris if it's somebody who, like, if you're losing out to Nicholas Liddstrom year after year. but I'd like to see a guy be a finalist, but I think the arguments for him are pretty convincing. The other guy that I voted for who didn't get a lot of support on our committee was Curtis Joseph.

I think there's been talk of, is this going to be the year or the goalie? Does Lundquist, Robert Lwango got in last year, Lungwis getting in this year. Historically, the hall has not been very goalie friendly. is this the year for not just Lundquist, but maybe a Curtis Joseph, or, and then you go down the list of other guys, Chris Sawes, good, Tom Barrasso, Mike Vernon is one that keeps coming up. I don't think, yeah, I wrote a piece where I lumped a bunch of those guys together and I said, I don't think so.

I don't think now is the time to throw the doors open necessarily when there's a lot of good candidates coming. but I could see Curtis Joseph going in. That would be my ideal class. If it's Lunkwis McGilney are the two that I would say have to go in. Gonchar, Joseph, I would be. Joseph I'd be happy with because he's been waiting so long. Garnchar, I'd be fine with.

Then who else? Keith Kachuk is a guy that is getting seemingly got some win behind him, obviously with his kids. It feels like that's two years old. way. Yeah, he should go in as a builder. Keith Kichick, the leading goal scorer, I believe among guys who are not in. That's correct, yep.

I'm trying to think other ones. I mean, we always have the Rod Brindamore argument. That's, as I've said before, that is a fascinating one because 10 years ago, he never came up, and I remember writing where I would say, how can we never even mention this guy's a Hall of Fame or if guys like an Alfredson or a

hosa are considered strong cases, where's the love for Rod Brindamore? And then over the years, he's now gotten to the point where there's a lot of fans out there who are just adamant that he has to be in. What are we even doing? And I don't think so, because to me, he was always a second-line guy. But he did have the two Selke. Like, there's a case for him. If he's inducted today, I'm, like, I'm not mad about it. Henrik Zetterberg is a guy, another guy with, I think, not a strong case, but a lot of people seem to think so. And Patrick Eliasch, I think, would fall into that category, too. Yeah, both of those to me, I'm just like, are we, we're really doing Patrick?

Like, Patrick Eliash? We have to, like, again, really great player for a long time, but like, come on. I will tell you that. We don't have to do that. I will tell you, the thing that drives me crazy about Patrick Eliash is, you make the argument against him, which is this guy played for 20 years in the NHL, he got just over 400 goals,

he got just over 1,000 points. For a forward, that's just not enough, unless you're talking about a multi-silky winner guy. And while Patrick Eliasch was a good two-way player, he never won a Selke, he was never a pretty sure of finalist. I don't think he ever really even came all that close. And what drives me crazy is people, Devils fans who are sticking up for their guy, will, it feels like the defense that they offer up is, well, yeah, but if he played on a different team than the Devils, he would have had better offensive numbers. The Devils are a defensive team.

He had to focus on his defensive responsibilities. What I would say is if he played basketball, he wouldn't have gone well for him. So, like, as long as we're doing ifs. The thing, the thing that even more so than that, for me is, I'm pretty sure that any time outside of this discussion, that you ever make reference to the devils being a boring defensive team as their franchise identity, you immediately have people show up and go, no, no, no,

the devil's actually scored a lot more than you thought. They led the league in goals one of the years that they won the cup. Maybe in 95 they were the clutch and grab neutral zone track team, but after that, No, no, no, they were great. And yet, as soon as the Patrick, and Patrick Ellash wasn't around for that 95 team, he showed up in the era where they scored more than you think. And yet for his candidacy, suddenly it turns into like the TikTok, I'm just a baby meme where it's like, no, he's just a devil. Like, you couldn't have expected him to score.

Yeah, it's one of the, like, look, you have to be unbelievably good to stick around in this league for 20 years. It's the Shane Don't thing, right? Yeah. and Alyosch at least did have that like 96 point season that one. He had one year where he was an all-star and got like top 10 hard voting. Yep. Like one. And like see that when you do this, what do you hate Patrick Elliott?

I was like, no, but like if you would come to me in 2002 and said who are like the top 10 forwards in the NHL, Patrick Eliasch wouldn't have shown up on my fucking list. I don't know what to tell you. You know? And that's, maybe that is the team he plays for, but I can't, we can't get into the what.

Look, what if instead of playing for, uh, the penguins, Mark Andre Fleury had played for the, those Red Wings teams. How many Cups would he have won then, you know?

Like, we can't fucking play those games. All we have is the, is the objective reality that, that, uh, that occurred during that guy. his career. And again, he played for

20 fucking years. He's awesome. But that doesn't make you a Hall of Fame Remember. Not everybody who, and look, he could get in because he played 20 years for one team. And that does seem to boost. I know a lot of people say, well, if he hadn't been on the devils, we'd been on the Rangers of the Leafs. Looking at the evidence,

it feels like playing for one team, even if it's a small market team, gives your case a big boost. Work for Daniel Offerson, work for Bernie for Durko. You go on down the list of guys. Oh, Daniel. I mean, that that guy played for the Red Wings. Yeah, exactly. But it's like, look,

I'm not mad at Devils fans who are like passionately feel Patrick L.S. should be in the Hall of Fame. Same with Detroit, with Hendrik Zetterberg, who I do not think has a strong case, but he could get in. Same with Rod Brindamore.

I'll just say that especially with Brindamore, we get into all these intangibles, like, yeah, but he was such an important player to the franchise and he was this and that. Like, that's why you retire a guy's number. That's why you build statues.

and all of that stuff, it doesn't get you into the Hall of Fame. I wouldn't think. Just a couple other names. Pierre Turgeon, sort of the opposite of those guys. Big numbers, bounced around, a lot of different teams. I wouldn't put them in. Jeremy Roanick and Theo Fleury, two guys who I think have solid but borderline cases that are not doing themselves any favors these days as far as public perception.

And I think, you know, with Rowanick in particular, it's like we had like he had his chance before the stuff about, oh, maybe he's not the best guy in the world or whatever. Like before that happened, he had what, a decade, maybe not a full decade, but like six or seven years, certainly, where the case was there and he just didn't get in. I think at this point, like I'd be shocked. The thing for Roanick, and Flurry to some extent, is. like it's it's both the worst argument you can make because it's so subjective but also kind of hits at the heart of what the Hall of Fame is is like did you ever feel when they're playing like this guy's a Hall of Famer like you never looked at Rod Brindamor and went oh that dude's going to be that second line center on that good team is going to be in the

Hall of Fame someday. Roanick and Flurry you absolutely did for a while. Like there was a time where Roanick was one of the biggest stars in the whole league. there was a time where Flurry was the most fun you could have watching hockey was watching Theo Fleury play. I just think if I'm on the committee and they're already borderline guys,

do I want to vote them in and then I got to hold my breath for five months hoping they don't like absolutely embarrass us? Probably not. I think the only other guys I had on my list were like John LeClair, great peak, but I don't think he gets in. Steve Larmer, I've never felt like

there was a case there. I guess Ryan Miller was the other goalie. And that's that. So congratulations to the Henrik Lunkwist and the three guys we didn't even mention who probably made it in. And then on the women's side, you know what? Carolyn Roulette, Jennifer Botterall, sure, Meg and Duggan, like, just put two women in. Please. There are a list of probably like 50 women where if they got in this year, I would just be like, of course.

Of course, no problem. You know, maybe it's not 50. The fact that you've got two slots and they never, they never use it. Other than the very first year is just, it's embarrassing, man. And then as far as builders, I don't, you never know. Because there's not that cut off of like new candidates coming in and out. It's just, who knows? I'm sure.

I got a good one for the builder category, Gary Bettman 2. Hmm, Gary Bettman again. Yeah. That'd be a good one. Be fun. Um, yeah, that's it. We're, we're gonna, uh, take a little break here. And then, uh, we'll, I don't know, Katie let it in a sound or something like that. And, uh, yeah, we'll be right back to talk even more about the Hall of Fame and what actually happened. All right. Hold on a second. All right, we're back and, and, uh, well, they picked some guys to be in the... Look at us back then. We were so young and innocent and full of hope. they really pick some guys and a girl

yeah they filled up almost every slot they could boy did they almost all right uh builders

Ken Hitchcock sure Peralaqua sure I think both very coaches I think are underrepresented so is that true I guess I don't know

I guess I never really thought about that how underrepresented When you think of how important they are, there's not a lot of coaches in the Hall of Fame. So at least guys that didn't do other things either as players or whatever. Sure. Yeah, Ken Hitchcock's a good one. And Pierre Laquois, again, the only, he was an agent before he was the GM who built a lot of those championship avalanche teams. And also, you know, beyond just building the championships.

kind of integrated them into Colorado. So a good pick there. The only thing you scratch your head on a bit is he passed away three years ago. So what's changed in three years. But yeah, good, better. A little bit late than never. So, yeah, I don't have an issue with either of those picks. You know, I had forgotten just how long Ken Hitchcock was in the league

and like pretty good with some bad franchise. you know like yeah two different 90 point seasons in Columbus I think or no just one I guess but even one back in the mid to mid to late 2000s just like a heroic achievement just did so it's absolutely yeah

yeah a bunch of hundred point seasons like didn't he had the sweatshirt that says hockey I mean that on its own is got it I hope so I'm gonna yeah he he seems like a like as good a coach as any to put in like almost 850 career wins that I think is fair enough um so yeah but and then like you said laqua is it's it's kind of self-evident oh yeah I'm looking at the the shirt that says hockey right now it's like uh really cool yeah this guy gets it

you should wear it to the induction a hundred percent or at least they should sell it in the gift shop or something yes you know Anyway, yeah, let's move on to the players. Henrik Lungwist. Hey, we said that guy should be in. Yeah, we did. Works for me. Honestly, it bugs me that, like, I just, before we came back to record this,

I did a radio hit on the big station in Toronto. And we went like half an hour. And I don't even know if we mentioned Henrik Lundquist's name because they were, They wanted to talk about the snubs and the weird picks and all the rest of it. So, you know, it's, it's, I know we all knew he was going in, but yeah, Henrik Lunkwist rocked. He was just, well deserved. Yeah, absolutely well deserved. I mean, in a way, kind of sucks that, like, we don't talk about him because he was such an obvious pick.

But good. I mean, that's the, what better honor could you have than to get inducted into the Hall of Fame? And everyone goes, yeah, of course, sure. What else would you expect from that guy? Yeah, totally. No beef there. Now, Sean, I feel like a monkey's paw situation happened with everything else. Okay.

Because you were like, oh, you know what's, you know what they never do is put goalies in the Hall of Fame? Yeah. And they were like, we'll put so many mediocre as goal. You know what? I shouldn't say mediocre. That's not as far. I say, Tom Barrasso is a stronger case than people think. Yeah, you know what?

It never really made sense to me, right? But then Ken Campbell, of all people, had a really good, like, one tweet. Ken knows his stuff, man. But like, such a concise takedown of, like, why is Lundquist a slam dunk and Barrasso isn't? Let's see if I can find it here. Yeah. Barasso won the Calder Vezna

three five times Jennings two cups and was a three time All-Star Henrik Lunkwist has a Vesna top five or top three five times also

three all-stars same as Barrasso Olympic and World Championship Zero Cups and it's like you know what I get I think there aren't a lot of people

out there who would be like and of course you know, they're on the same level. They're not. I think everybody kind of agrees that Lundquist was more often let down by bad teams or, you know,

at least not good enough teams, let's say, in terms of winning a Stanley Cup. And winning an Olympic gold medal is difficult in this era because he's not Canadian. So for him to do that is impressive. And sorry. And at the very least, like even like Luongo

winning the gold medal. for Canada. It takes away the whole like, well, he couldn't win the big one. Sure. I didn't win a cup. But this idea that somehow a goaltender was, you know, oh, he was fine in the regular season, but then he got all, oh, he was all nervous

when the games mattered most and you couldn't count on him. Well, if a guy won a gold medal on an even bigger stage than that's the end of that. So, I mean, Henry Glunk was didn't play for bad teams, but he, there was never a year that you went, oh, they had had better goal tanning. The Rangers could have really done something this year. He was always their best player, pretty much every playoff run.

Tom Brasso was good. I wrote my piece a couple days ago where I was like, here's the case against a bunch of borderline players. And Brasso was one of them. And somebody in the Discord was like, because I hinted in that piece that, hey, I'm giving you the argument against, but I would vote for some of these guys. And somebody said, like, who were the guys you'd vote for?

and one of them I said, you know what? I could see myself voting for Tom Barrasso. This dude won the Vesna as an 18-year-old. That is right up there with like Gretzky's 92 goals in crazy things from the 80s. Like, goalies don't even get to the NHL now until they're like 28. Yeah, and not only did he win it as an 18-year-old.

He won it straight out of high school Massachusetts hockey. Not even like prep. He played for acting. Bauxborough High School, went straight to the NHL, one of Vezna. You ever knew in high school. And then picture that guy a year later being like, yeah, I'm the best goaltender in the NHL. And now everybody who went to high school with LeBron James is like, oh, no, that makes a lot of sense to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, but I just pulled this up. This is the evolving hockey goals saved above expected, like rankings or whatever you want. to say, and I did this for the entire 07 to present. The top five, the lowest guy on that roster is Ilya Sorokin somehow. He's already plus 76, like saved above expected. Then you bump up to Connor Hellebuck, 87, Yossi Soros 90, Yarrow Halak, 92. And then number one is Henrik Lundquist with 278. What the fuck?

The fact that he only won one Vezna is fucking crazy. It's insane. It doesn't make any sense. Lunkwist three of the top six single season G-Sax numbers since 2007. Three of the top six, one guy. So good. Unbelievable. Yeah.

Lungwis is great. I'm okay with Tom Barrasso. I would, on my list of goalies, other than Lundquist and Luongo, Curtis Joseph was the top guy on my list. But I don't, you know, I don't think this, there's a case for Tom Barrasso. I think there's a weaker case for Mike Vernon, but there is a case. Totally. There is a case.

And I will also say this without, I don't want to say anything that I shouldn't say beyond And Mike Vernon had a very good case put forward on his behalf. I don't think people necessarily know this. The 18 committee members are the ones who nominate. So, you know, they're the ones who say a name and say, this is who I want to talk about and then off they go. But outside people can submit cases for different players. and sometimes that's like that's fans sometimes it's family saying like you know hey grandpa has been

overlooked and you know please put him in and and none of that obligates anyone to do anything but they do you see it and what you do see sometimes is they'll have people will have uh other players including some hall of famers back their case and say like you know as a member of the class of blah blah blah, blah, you should induct this guy. And I think there was a lot of more support for Vernon among that kind of, that community than there was in the outside world. Now, you could point to that say... Would you say 200 hockey men picked up the phone?

You could say that. You could say it's more kind of old boys club sort of deal, but it's also, you know, this is a really well-respected guy within the hockey world, I'll just say. Yeah, and he was a good goalie. Three times in the top four in Bezna voting, he won a Kahn-Smith. Like this isn't a guy who was like bad or anything, but again, it's just like... And I mean, more importantly, he beat the doors off, Patrick Wah. So...

Yep. Yes, I, he was not, you know, on my list of goalies, goloquist, Kujo, Barrasso, and then I'm into talking about, you know, to me, Vernon is in that, not that there's no case for him, but he's in there with like Chris Osgood and Ryan Miller and guys like that. And also the other thing is both Vernon and Barrasso have been retired forever. So again, you sort of get into. Now, again, I've been banging the drum for years. There's not enough goalies in the Hall of Fame. Sure. I also think this is... Careful what you wish for.

This is a bit of a weird time to throw the door open because we're about to get hit with Kerry Price, Mark Andre Fleury, Tuka Rask. you to becker Rene, guys like that. Can I? Maybe this is beach softening because if previously the standard was, well, look, you've got to be Henrik Lundquist. You could have been Patrick Waugh to be a goalie and get into the Hall of Fame. And now they're like, only need to be Mike Vernon. And so like, you know, Ilya Sorokin booked. He's in.

We're all set here. How about this? Do you think that like, does this not open the door for Sergey Bavrovsky? Two-time Vezno winner? Never won a cup, obviously. Got to a cup final. Yeah.

And it certainly does feel like Longquist aside that this is, I mean, you don't want to read too much into it, but this almost feels like the committee saying like, hey, cups still matter for goalies. We're going to put in Luonga, we're going to put in Longfis, but cups still matter. So we're going to, you know, Vernon Barrasso.

Could be. So, yeah. And then we get to the only skater on the men's side. Pierre Turgeon. Wait, no, it's funny. I thought you said Pierre Turgeon just now, but obviously it's Alexander McGilney's the guy that got it.

You would think, wouldn't you? I don't know. I mean, I almost, people, we talked about it, before we time traveled about how we both think McGillney is a slam dunk obvious case. So I don't, like, why do you think they're not inducting him? He is Russian. Now, do you mean that in the sense that is this like an overall anti-Russian thing? Or is this like the politics of today they don't want?

You know, I didn't even think of, I honestly didn't even think about it like that. I thought, wasn't there like... Because I've seen a few people suggest that. I guess that's not surprised. Well, like, that it would be suggested isn't surprising to me. Did, was he like a guy he refused, there was like a big brawl and he refused to fight in it and that kind of thing, right? Am I right about this? Like in World Juniors or something like that?

Pierrejanon? No, McGilny. No, that was Turgeon. It was the 87 brawl, Canada and Russia, and Pierre Turgeon didn't go out, didn't leave the bench. to help his teammates. So he was not well liked for the first many years of his career. And maybe that's what, okay.

So I saw someone bring that up, but I didn't know if that was for McGilney or that's why I had, you know, 87. I'm four years old. I can't. Sure. Yeah. We, honestly,

I don't even remember even hearing about World Juniors until like 03 maybe. So, you know, get off my back. wild to me, but, uh... It's, no, it really, like, you know, it was just like, at best it was going to be a deep cable thing, and I feel like I watched it on the NHL network and like 0, 3, 04, something like that. I feel like I watched that Mark Andre Fleury own goal.

Yes, yeah. Uh, on TV, like, live. So that would have, I think that probably would have been my first world junior, but... Yeah, so... Anyway. Yeah, I've seen it suggested that the committee is maybe shying away from Russian players right now. given the geopolitical world around us. But, okay, like, the guy's been eligible since 2009.

Yeah. And are we not going to put in Pavel Datsu next year? I believe he's eligible next year, or I don't know. I wouldn't put in Pavel Datsu for different reasons. Well, yeah. The reason being, what, one, like, truly unbelievable season and then a bunch of, like, I think he's going to get in. He's going to get in on, he'll get in on the merits as a player.

Unless they're not inducting Russians or unless they look at absolutely anything he has said since retired. Well, I'm just saying in terms of like, you know, this is a guy he didn't even play a thousand games, 300 goals, 900 points, like, you know. Dude, you're going to, you think the Red Wing fans are mad about Henrik Zetterberg. look the Zetterberg thing is like what are we doing here? We can't just put in everybody who wins a cup, right? Like, and look, I like that in Zerber. I thought he was really, really good.

But, you know, honestly, Selke's aside, he might have a better case than Dadzook does. But either way, I think you can't put either of those guys in. Yeah. With a straight face. That's, that's getting in. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, no McGill.

I mean, I don't. really know what to say about noam gilny it's this is feeling now like we're into pat burns territory yeah it's pointed where it's like it's like you're not going to tell us what to do we are the 200 hockey men and if you're going to make a big stink out of it then we're we're not going to put your guy in for a few years um and and look i i saw like on on the broadcast they kept hitting the point that sometimes sometimes you have to wait but once you're in the hall you're in the all forever. And, you know, if they get it right eventually, fine. But I mean, the Pat Burns thing where they waited until after he died was infuriating. But, uh, of course, yeah. The, you know,

McGilney, it's just, it's frustrating. And it, again, it diminishes from the accomplishments of the guys who do get in because we're all having this argument. So now instead of people go, you know, peer attention had 1,300 points. So you, you, He's a hell of a underrated offensive player. You've got all the people my age going, Pierre Terjohn's a Hall of Famer, and Alexander McGilney isn't? Like, what? So, I don't know.

I mean, Turgeon, like I wrote this week, the argument for him has always been that he's the leading score among players who aren't in, that are eligible. Not no more. And now he isn't. So now you know who that is? Who's next on the list is Jeremy Ronan. who may or may not get in.

But if Ronick ever does get in, you know, who's next? We're down to Bernie Nichols and Vincent Danfus. Yeah. Which to me is like somebody's got to be the guy who's tops on that list. Yeah, every year. And I thought Turgeon was an appropriate place to draw that line. Yeah, every year if you're putting in like the highest scoring guy who's not in the hall, eventually you get down into, again, like Shane Donne territory.

and it's like, Shane Dome, really good player for a really long time. Yeah. But come on. It's okay for guys to be really good for a long time and mean a lot to a franchise and then not get in. So I don't know. Like the other thing with Turgeon that I wrote this week, I guess two things. 19 year career got Hart Trophy votes once in his 19 years. Not one single time was he ever in the top five for All-Star voting at center.

Yeah. Not even the top five. Now, I know this guy played in the Mario Lemieux era and, you know, all of that. Like, I'm not going to sit here and say he should be a first team All-Star. Not even ever in the top five, even in the year that he had 140 points or whatever it was. So I don't know. And look, just to circle back to guys like Datzouk, right, where it's like, you know, you can say a decent chunk of their career, and obviously with Turgeon on an even bigger one, a decent chunk of their careers is spent at a time where we really didn't.

understand how good they were, you know what I mean? Where, like, you know, we don't have expected goals, percentages and stuff like that. And Dat'suk is obviously, you know, I don't think we had expected goals, but we certainly had coursey by like 07, 08, not 09. But he, and at that point he's like in his 30s. But again, it's just like, it's hard for me to look at a, got look at these guys where it's like yeah they were they were once considered like a top five player at their position and and more than once in in datsuka or zetterberg's case i guess but it's

like there's a difference between those guys and even like uh and i guess this is me turning back into a small hall guy again but like there there was a difference between those guys and say even your jonathan taves is you know what i mean where it's like no that guy's like a star. Now, who's a bigger guy on the Jonathan Taves had a, was a little overrated there. Like, there are a few guys who are more on that than me. Yeah. But, you know, I think Jonathan Taves is a slam dunk hall of fame or like even by my higher standards. Is he?

And I, I think he's going to be a real, like he's going to get in, but he's going to retire, potentially this year. And people are going to be like, wait, he had 800. points. Yeah, he's not even, it doesn't even look like he's going to get to 900. That is crazy. But so wild that he was named at top 100. Like I would never get. Yeah.

How they handled that. In a list where they didn't name anyone, any like active players. Like if they put 30 active players and made it into marketing today's stars, yeah, no problem. But, oh, that was so weird. Yeah. But, you know, it's funny. I just looked this up.

are on hockey reference, you can go, and it does list you as being on the 100 greatest players list. Yes, I noticed that, yeah. I think they must have added that relatively recently. Yeah. But, yeah, no, like, again, it's very difficult to, to, because, again, once you're letting in Pierre Turgeon, it's like, I guess fucking Zetterberg and Datzuk should be in. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's fine. And again, okay.

Yeah. I mean, once they put Kevin Longuey, Carbino in, Yeah. Like there's floodgates wide open. As I said in the Discord, I listed those 15 people that, you know, made my arguments against them. I'm like, every single one of those guys has a better case than

Geekarvonel. Sure. And now people are mad at me because I keep bringing that up. They're like, we get it. Like, stop. So, all right. Yeah, no Rod Brindamore, no Patrick Eliasch, no, Henrik Zetterberg.

But, you stay on the ballot. This isn't baseball where you get X number of years and then and then you drop off. So maybe next year. Hey, there's an article idea for you. If they did do the, obviously the way you drop off the ballot in baseball is to not get X percent of the vote or whatever. Or you get 10 years. Or 10 years. That's right.

So there's a post idea for you. Who's the guys who got into the Hall of Fame eventually where it's like they wouldn't be in though? Come on now. Yeah. You know. Roji Vachan was like 30 years, wasn't it? Yeah, crazy. Like suddenly they, I don't know.

Gotta get the goalies in there. You got to. The women. Or, sorry. This is the woman. This is insane. This really feels like Pat Burns level spite, right? Pointed.

Screw you. Yes. Because like I put out in a tweet. Like, this isn't about, the argument of like how many women should go in versus how many men and you know we all understand that there are fewer women playing the game and you know top level there's only two real countries for most of it yeah we all get that the hockey hall of fame itself answered this question back you know 10 13 years ago when they first introduced the women's category which is they

said four we have four men we're only going to allow maximum of two women it's not going to be equal. We're going to, there's going to be more men than women. But by doing that, which is, you know, I think that was, I think that was fine. But by doing that, they said to the committee, we want two women a year when there are, you know, assuming there are candidates who meet the crew, who are worthy of induction. We want two a year from you. And the committee, other than that very first year, has basically just flipped the bird and said, no, we're not doing it that way. We're doing zero or one, even as we do four men most years. I think it was Greg that posted basically that it's been like 13 years since they put two women in.

The very first year, they put two women in. I'm just kind of surprised it was that long ago. By the way, did you see? It's been one or zero. It's been zero a lot of years. Did you see the, uh, the, uh, uh, Barrasso quote about this. No.

He goes, I wasn't exactly waiting by the phone for this call. Like the, he, even he was like, whoa, really? Okay. Yeah, but I think that's also just him being a dick. Which he was, by the way, like a notorious, awful human being.

Oh, I didn't know that. In the sense of just being a jerk. Not in the sense that we come to meet it now. But he was just a, he was, put it this way. He was, he was a huge jerk to the media. But. Yeah.

There's only like three. media people on the committee. There you go. Yeah, I feel like that's it, huh? Yeah, I don't have anything else to say. I feel like people might want like a big rant over, especially the, over the women. I don't, I'm just, I'm frustrated with this class. I'm frustrated with the process, the committee, the secret committee, where we have no idea, who's even discussed.

Like, again, like, knowing the process, it's possible. Senator McGill only didn't even get talked about today. Yeah. Or, you know, some, whoever your guy that you were really hoping for wasn't even up for consideration. Or maybe they were, and maybe they felt one vote short. Pretty cool. No idea. No one's ever going to tell you.

Because hockey players are the toughest people in the whole world until it's time for their feelings to get hurt. And then we have to keep big secrets to make sure everyone is happy. That's right. well Sean why don't you hit them with some plugs and we'll get the hell out of yeah uh find my well my my now out of date hall of fame piece i also today Wednesday brought back uh the hall of very good uh people including especially today use that as an insult on a guy like a peer turgeon that go ah he's a hall of very good guy i want i use it as a compliment

i use it for guys that are not making the hall of fame but we're still just cool or fun or just worth it's it's a remembersome guys post but yeah it's usually a lot of fun and I'll have a bunch of stuff I don't even know what I'm writing this week or next week or whatever who knows it's draft time it's chaos it's draft time

might depend on flights and everything but I'll be in Nashville next next week so yeah me too I think I guess we'll find out could be good times yep and then for me E.P.Rinkside.com

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So check all that out. And then, uh, Patreon.com slash puck soup, uh, because of the delay in this episode, the mailbag is already up for today and we got a bunch of bonus episodes coming your way for the rest of the month so plenty going on over there and yeah that's it thanks for gutting this one out with us folks and we'll talk to you later have a good one sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons we've got sportly commentary to what if you commute but we also cover movies TV shows, it's in tools It's your weekly bowl of

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