Puck Soup - Dungeons & Draggings

Episode Date: January 20, 2021

The boys discuss the state of the NHL, including those "smart pucks" that didn't slide; surprises and disappointments; COVID panic; Wysh's Dungeons & Dragons history; Mike Babcock's attempt at image repair; Jake Voracek drags a Philadelphia columnist on Zoom; the problem with NBA fandom, as Wysh's Nets are really good; and a spirited trip into TV nostalgia with the best and worst theme songs. Sponsored by MyBookie!

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Greg Wischinski of ESPN, the worldwide leader in Fawning Over Jack Hughes, which is what I've been doing for the last several hours. I'm Ryan Lambert from the NHL's puck quality assurance team. Sean McAdoe from the Athletic.

And you're in puck soup. Well, hell, Lambert, we might as well start there. For those who didn't hear, the NHL had to recall all of its pucks because the special puck and player tracking pucks that they had ordered from, I guess, the same company that made them for the playoffs last year. I haven't gotten confirmation on that. They keep on changing the manufacturing partners for this stuff. They got a batch of pucks.

They had the chip inside the puck or what have you. That would be monitored by the antennas around each rink. So you can find out how many miles Connor McDavid skated in a game and all that fun stuff. And, uh, uh, oh, whoopsie, the pucks don't slide. Uh, which is a problem. in hockey, I think, in general. Yeah, Tristan Jari's like, I know, right? It's crazy.

Well, it's funny. I mentioned McDavid, like, the Oilers power play has been dog shit to start the season. And if you have a puck that doesn't, if you have a puck that doesn't slide, like, wouldn't that indicate that maybe? Yeah, but other teams, power plays are fine. You can't, you can't selectively go, you know what, this thing that I didn't think was going to happen. this is where the evidence of the problem is. Oh, you can absolutely do that. And this is, thank you to the Pucks for giving many teams.

Yeah, John Torturella. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one week mulligan on everything. I'm just saying the Oilers power play is pinpoint accuracy and timing. Yeah. It's magic. As the only team that actually slides the puck along the ice on their power play, every other team is just like taking slap shots at each other's hands.

Picking it up and throwing. throwing it. So they recalled all the pucks. They said, we've heard your complaints, players, that you want to play hockey with a puck that slides. And they are going to use the regular old pucks from last season until they get a new batch of these smart pucks.

And they say they're going to quality test them. So that's good news, I guess. And then they'll use them again. some point later in the season. So the saga of puck and player tracking continues. For those of us who have followed this story for what seems like decades now, we've gone from, let's put a chip in the puck. Uh-oh, the puck split when you hit them with your stick to let's put a chip in the puck. Uh-oh, the pucks don't slide. So we're getting better, I think. Yeah, I think their big mistake this year was getting a puck that was shaped like a D&D die.

Oh, so that's the problem with the Oilers Powerplay is they didn't roll a 20 for double damage. That's obviously the issue. I mean, that's how my dungeon master played it. I'm just, I'm not saying that's how your dungeon master played it. That's how my dungeon master played it. Every player in the league has a zero for charisma. Oh, fuck. We could get down a hell of a rabbit hole here, but we won't.

I think I'm, I've never played D&D in my life. I don't know anything. I had a friend I had a friend named Matt Young who lived down the street from me when I was growing up and he was classic older brother I was friends with his younger brother Jeff

classic older brother into D&D into had Iron Maiden posters in his bedroom and shit you know like real painted van stuff right sounds cool he was awesome

and so he was the dungeon master for the D&D games that we played and you know my entire experience with Dungeons and Dragons is through those games. And I was for a while, like I was buying the sets and buying the dice. There was a place called the Hobby Shop in my town that sold all the dice.

It was super fun. And then, of course, eventually, what did I do? Get into Satan worship? Oh. No, I went the completely opposite direction. I took all the dice and created my own role-playing, not role-playing, but like, dice-based baseball game in my bedroom. That's the player right there.

Yeah, I used all my Tops cards and created a game where, like, depending on what I rolled, it was either like a fastball or whatever, and then depending on I rolled, it's what the hitter did. And, you know, in a classic Greg Wyshenski move went from the communal game in which you're all sitting around a table, cracking jokes and having fun, to just sitting in my room and playing by myself with dice. So, good stuff. Tell what you were talking about? Oh, that's right, pucks.

The biggest problem with this puck and player tracking thing for me is we still don't know if it's going to work. Like they had this grand plan to do just sensors on the players, sensors in the pucks. They found out that, you know, the information they were getting was good, but maybe not complete. They included optical tracking, which is what the NBA does, try to round out the picture. That's incomplete because the optical trackers can't pick up the puck sometimes. times when it's between legs. Anyone who's heard this podcast knows I'm very, very high on pluck and player tracking as being a game changer, not only for the stats community, but for wagering.

But it's these little moments of discouragement that make me think that we may never get to the point where it's going to be like a full-fledged thing in the National Hockey League. Yeah, and who could have seen that coming, that they were like, oh, this is a really good idea. We have so many good ideas to like pivot off of. And then it didn't work out at all. I'm crazy. What a unexpected turn of events. But the other thing, the other facet of your typical NHL cynicism that I think we should mention,

because it's very much a factor in this, is they're cheap. And the technology that it, that really would have worked without needing the other part of it, the optical tracking part of it cost a lot of money when the pucks would go into the crowd you'd have to go get them because they cost a lot of money and the first game I watched

or one of the first games I watched this year they were like oh those pucks cost like 30 bucks each now this is crazy can you believe it's like yeah that seems like a fucking rounding error is rounding error for a professional sports team I would have thought so so that's the thing

and it cost a lot of money to fit the arenas with the stuff it was a lot of it was A lot of their decision making in which way to go with puck and player tracking was based on the cost. So I guess you get what you pay for, as they say. I mean, look, this is the league where, like, minor league players are going. You know what? I think I have to retire instead of playing in the HL this year because I'm losing so much money. And the PHPA is like, and it would cost $8 million to make sure everybody is just turning out their pockets.

It's like, well, I guess that's the cost of doing business. Yeah. It's a hell of a trickle down in the minor league. It's an ugly situation as far as people that can play and can't play. What has surprised you so far, Ryan Lambert, about this season? Negatively or positively? Yeah, I mean, there's just been a lot of teams where you don't want to build or put too much stock into one or two games. three or four, however many all these teams have played now.

But like, I don't know. You look at the standings and you're just like, oh, the New Jersey Devils are third in the east. That's weird. You know, the Bruins can't score at all. Yeah. The Vancouver Canucks are the worst team in Canada. The Ottawa senators look fine. It's a lot of weird stuff going on for sure.

And, hey, maybe it is just the Pucks, but... Yeah, the results have been bananas, I think, to date. I mean, Dallas is in last place. It's crazy. They haven't done anything. They haven't done anything. But they also have the league's best power play, I understand as well. Oh, wait, no, penalty kill, rather.

I feel like Carolina is going to really give them a run for their money, though. Yeah. Sean, what about you? What surprised you? I mean, I don't think anything jumps out as completely bizarre. You're three or four games in. You know, Ryan's right. You look at the standings.

You're like, oh, I can't believe that team's there or that team's down there. But then you look and you're like, oh, it's one point separating them. So it's, I'm a little bit surprised that I had hoped that we might see. scoring go way up, at least early on, just from the rust factor. Like the teams hadn't been at camp and maybe some systems weren't in place. And that hasn't really happened. Like the first night or two, there were some high scoring games, but haven't really seen it. Beyond that, I mean, Columbus stands out a little bit as a team that's maybe in more trouble than you might have thought.

Can't score. Can't score. I mean, Vancouver's the one that stands. If you insisted on starting to craft a storyline out of the first week, which is the business we're in, the name that jumps out at me is Jacob Markstrom. Like, he goes from Vancouver to Calgary. Not only beats the Canucks twice,

but the Canucks can't keep the puck out of the net. And Calgary's sitting there with five points at a six looking pretty good. again, super early. I mean, it's literally one game. You change the result of one game and the whole thing flips. But if I'm a Canucks fan right now, I'm kind of sitting there going, this, you know, it's, this isn't like, you know, if you're Boston and you can't score, yeah, I mean, you lost chair, but also David Pasternak's not there.

So, okay, that's, we can explain what's going on here. Your Vancouver can't keep the puck out of the net. You just lost your goaltender. Those two things might be related. It's not too hard to draw a line from one dot to another there. So that's where I would be mildly worried, but there's no team in the league right now where I'm like, I would be panicking. This is you're much worse than expected. I mean, like Chicago's a mess, but most of us saw that.

Some of the other bad teams have been respectable, and that's good. You want to see a little bit of a fight from the Ottawa's and Detroit's and that sort of thing. Bobby Ryan, awesome story. I'm loving that. Speaking of Detroit, they looked. like borderline competent right up until it all falls apart for them, you know? Yeah. And like that's such a huge improvement from last year that like I, you know, I watched that.

I, this is the, you know, sign of having a brain disease, I think. But I watched all of that Columbus Detroit game on my day. And like that game was, Detroit was like pushing Columbus around pretty good for a good chunk of it. then it got away from them in the end. And I think, like, if you're a rebuilding team, that's kind of what you want, right? You just want to go, you know what? We were in it for a while. Then it turned out, you know, half our roster shouldn't be in the NHL.

So we didn't win at the end. You know, I think that's where you want to be with. They lost, like, a quarter or a third of their games last year by four or more goals. Like, they weren't just losing. They were getting their doors blown off constantly. Epically losing. And, you know, now, the flip side of it. that is they've got they play four games each of their goalies has two starts and i think

they're about 9 30 say percentage as a team sure with all due respect to jonathan bernier and thomas grice i don't think this is a team that's going to be 930 for the whole season so yeah i i i well that's what happens when you play columbus right but hey great great news for chicago uh detroit's trying the season so enjoy the basement. It's good times. I think in some cases, like you said, Sean, the problems that we thought would exist for some teams definitely exist.

Like Vancouver with the downgrading goal, but also can they play defense? So far, no. Edmonton with the goaltending issues, saw it a mile away, did not see the power play regression to that degree a mile away

and so on and so forth division by division in the Honda West you have Vegas, Colorado, St. Louis, Minnesota as we do the show. That's not through that. That's exactly how I think it's going to probably end up. And then you have a big separation

to the rest of the division eventually. In the Mass Mutual East, the flyers look great the capitals and penguins look good depending on the night the islanders have five no I don't agree

they've had some moments but yeah that's what I'm saying like they've had some moments but they've thought look good the capitals have had some moments but I don't think overall they looked great the islanders have five goals in three games.

Great stuff. Sounds about right. Devils are feisty, man. They're, devils are feisty. Yeah. Outkicking their coverage a little bit. Boston's impossible to evaluate

because Pasternak's not playing. And if there is one team that I'm looking at and saying, it's the Rangers. And when does the, when does the flame get turned up a little bit on Quinn in New York?

I think it's a legitimate question. Like, he's making some bizarre decisions with who plays on the power play. Like, he's putting cacko on the second unit some nights and, like, you know, the usual suspects where, like, Ryan Stromer is getting looks on the first unit instead. But at the same time, like, okay, you know, famously he's scratched Tony DiAngelo for not just, maturity issues, but also his play, and who knows what percentage of each is an issue. But, like, he can't also then scratch Jack Johnson and, you know, like the other two defensemen where it's like, oh, he's like a replacement level at best defender. Like, he's got to put them all somewhere. And so I do on some level, like, I don't think he has a ton to work with, but I'm also, you know, not defending him by.

Annie means because I don't think he's doing a great job. Now, is it true that he just simply didn't like the last episode of Watch Your Tone, the hit podcast that Tony DeAngelo does? Is that true or no? I think the issue with the Rangers is that every team comes to a point when they're building something where they say to themselves, okay, is the guy that's been behind the bench for the rebuild, the guy that then takes us to the next level? and you could easily see...

Jeff Blasill is somewhere right now. Right, right. Feeling if he's being talked about. Yeah. Like, you could easily see the Rangers looking at Quinn, who's, you know, sort of cut from the Mike Sullivan cloth and a very accomplished college coach and stuff. And saying to themselves, all right,

like maybe we bring in one of them, NHL experienced guys, somebody who's been there, quote unquote, to take over a extraordinarily talented but still green roster and get us to the next level. You could see that happening a mile away, if not this season, then the next season for the Rangers. In the summer, yeah, absolutely. The Scotian North Division,

how are you feeling about the Leafs, Sean? I mean, six points in four games, that's fine. That'll do it. Have not looked fantastic. I mean, their loss came against Ottawa, who in theory they should be beating. They had to go to overtime against the Habs. Their last game against the Jets was their best in the sense that it was kind of their most complete game. And they showed a little bit of defense.

I think so far the Leafs have been about what we thought. They can score. Still not sure on the defensive side. The thing with the Leafs, and this is this whole division, is every time I look at the Leafs, I'm like, yeah, but you know what? They haven't played any really great teams yet. And then I look at the division and I'm like, oh, right. You're going to be like, yeah, they haven't played any great team.

Yeah, it's like I'm literally going to get all through the season. And it's, you know, there's no, and we don't know. Like Montreal has looked good. I'll give Montreal credit. They really have. They look good. So maybe, certainly, you know, a month from now, we might say that, yeah, there is really good teams in this division.

But for now, it's just kind of like, yeah, every, the Leafs on paper should be able to get points against all of these teams. So every loss is going to feel like, you know, feel like a missed opportunity. And that's fine. But they've been okay so far, but I don't think. I'd give them a grade higher than that. That sounds about right. The proper levels of optimism and concern that I think are commiserate with being a Leaps fan.

Montreal looks better than I expected. I hope they missed the playoffs. I look smart, but they're pretty good. And I'm very concerned about my sweet boys in Vancouver. Yeah. The COVID division, the Central. No kidding. Florida's undefeated

Can't spell Discover without COVID COVID Yeah well done Florida's undefeated will remain so at least through the weekend

apparently I guess I don't know But Brofsky looked like dog shit In his first game Tampa's Tampa Nashville got a couple wins over Columbus to start the season

and they look pretty good. Carolina, before the COVID hit, they look pretty good. I don't know, like, tough division to figure out until the reigning Western Conference champion starts playing. But sort of the way we thought it would go. And that's the one I feel like we know the least about. Not just because of Dallas and Carolina missing games, but, you know, we haven't seen Tampa play one of the better teams.

Florida has played Chicago, so you're kind of, you're sort of just waiting to see more on that one, because there is more separation in that division where you can start seeing some matchups where you're like, okay, this is good team against bad team, and this is good team against good team, and bad against bad,

and we'll start to see some figure out who goes where. But I don't really feel like we've got a good sense of that one, other than that it's going to be a long year for Chicago. We didn't touch on the Pierre-Luc Dubois saga, when we talked about Columbus earlier. There was a brief moment this week when he didn't play for a good stretch of the second period in Columbus's game. And the speculation was that John Totorella had benched him. And John Totorella's response to this was, you'll know when I bench somebody, Broxie.

And so what do you think is going to happen with Dubois? Do you think that they do the, we're a better team with him? So he sticks around for this year. and then we move him in the off-season bit, or do you think that this is an untenable situation and he has to be moved in-season? Yeah, during that game against the Wings on Monday, like, they, NBC isn't normally one to, like, gin up this kind of,

this kind of scurrilous rumor-mongering and all that kind of stuff. But, like, they showed from last year, like, a clip, or from the playoffs last year, a clip of Dubois coming back to the bench and Tortoella, you know, like, pointing a finger, in his face and getting right in his ear when he sat down on the bench and stuff. And they were like, yeah, I don't think the player in his representation liked that, you know? And it's like, well, if they're even saying it on NBC and then like later in that game, he's not playing for like 14 minutes of the second half of the game or whatever it was.

Like, that seems like it's not tenable, you know? But then again, he goes out and scores the game winning goal in that game, if I'm not mistaken. And then you go, well, okay. Fair enough. Maybe you need them because if you don't have Pierre-Lucois, like, who's putting the puck in the net at that point? Yeah. Yeah. At this point in the NHL, teams do not ever like to have the perception that they're being forced into a move.

Everyone likes to do things on their own timetable. We're constantly told that even the smallest deal is so complicated and takes months and months to put together. something like this. I mean, we're all right. What's the trade deadline? Like two months away? Like, we're already within range where we'll start hearing that there just isn't time to put something like this together.

I mean, the NBA can do 14 trades in a day, but the NHL, apparently, it just takes a lot longer to figure out. And with a salary cap that is impossible to explain in under two hours. Exactly. They can somehow figure it out, but not the NHL guys. So, anyway, this is my way of saying. I they only move him if the situation becomes untenable. I don't think we're there yet.

I think it's kind of up to Pierre-Luc de Bois whether we get there. And what is, how much does he want to go? Is he willing to just kind of be the good soldier and with some assurance that he'll be moved in the off-season? Or does he maybe feel like we've got to, we've got to push this a little bit further? I mean, we used to have, it used to be very common in the NHL that star players every year would just sit out and say, I want to be traded. And I'm not coming to work. And that doesn't happen anymore, partly because it just isn't allowed in the CBA. You can't.

There isn't really an option for that. So I'm not suggesting that would ever happen. But whatever the modern equivalent of that is, I think the hand of the blue jackets could be forced. but I feel like that has to happen for them to make a move during the season. Not to mention all the other complications with just trading during this. How do you trade when you're in a quarantine situation? Well, the other thing to say, though, is that they've played four games so you don't want to. But they've looked bad.

And the only team they've beaten is the Detroit Red Wings, a team that also beat them the next night. So, I mean, if they're if they're not good this season, like, don't you just go, well, that's it. And you flip them at the deadline? Because I can't imagine, like, why, you know, why driving out at that point? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, from a maximizing value perspective, that makes sense.

From an, I'm an NHL GM and I am not going to let some kid push me around and tell me, you know, and all this. Yeah. But I'm just talking more. about like, you know, just like you get to a point where it's like, okay, not only is the player not happy and he wants out, but also we're awful. And so like, why drag this out? And you know, we all know what's going to happen. Let's just fucking do it. But there is also kind of an element here and where if you're Columbus, you're a small market. You lost two big free agents a year ago. Now you're in theory best player doesn't want to be there. Like at some point, you can't just. You can't just. You can't just. You're a small market. You lost two big free agents a year ago. Now, now you're, like at some point, you can't just, have it be a revolving door where players know that, yeah, if you get drafted or you wind up in Columbus, you serve a few years and then you get out. Like there might be a point where they say, you know, we got to draw a line here because otherwise, who's it? So what? We trade them for a first round pick. That first round pick turns into a star and we just do this again in a few years

with someone else who wants out. Again, this tracks back to Rick Nash. Like this goes a little way back to the Rick Nash. Yeah. Yeah, it's in the DNA of the franchise. But I kind of don't think that's the same. Because like with Rick Nash, it was all. is like, well, we stink. Like, the issue is we stink. And, like, having Rick Nash here is, like, you know, just wasting his career versus, you know, Panarin and Bobrovsky leave. And it's like, well, they wanted to go to bigger markets or, you know, they didn't like the coach, whatever it is. And now with Dubois, it's like, well, it seems like he wants to go to a bigger market and doesn't like the coach.

I mean, you can't fix the market problem. And, you know what I mean? Like, at what point do you go, you know what, being able to grind out all these two-one shootout wins and make the playoffs, if it's costing us all these star players, like, at what point is Tortorella hockey? Like, I think he's turned himself into a very good coach again, but at what point is it not worth it if this is the way he's going to coach and piss off all your best players? Because the other thing, Pierre-Miguire was, like, raving about, oh,

you know, Mike Delzato loves playing for John Tortorella. And it's like, well, I guess they found the guy. They found the one guy who's like, it actually rules to get yelled at all the time. All right. Last thing on Dubois. Where would you fantasy cast him? I mean, obviously there are complications if you wanted to send him to Montreal, which I think is where a lot of people think he should end up.

There's a lot of complications there. Yeah, I mean, he has to play behind like the four Sure Fire Hall of Fame centers that they already have. Have you heard? I mean, there's also like six more that play the wing that'll be centers at some point. Yeah. No, there's that. The Rangers are a really interesting spot, but I do wonder as Capo and Lafranier get older and you paid a lot of money on that trouba contract. Like there's money that you're going to have to give out in the next couple of years and you're already paying some guys some pretty hefty salaries.

I think they could make it work. but I don't know. And the other thing is, you know, we're all big on this because it's very rare for young stars to get moved in the league. But what is Pierre-Luc Dubois actually? Like, is this, is he a number one center you build a franchise around, or is he like Ryan Johansson? Is he a perfectly serviceable second-line center guy that can be good on, can help a team, but you don't blow it. If you're the Rangers, you're not going, this is the missing. piece that we bring in to be our

I 100% agree Sean he's a good player who had a really good playoff and now everybody's like well if you just get him out of Columbus he's going to turn into fucking Joe Thornton you know like there's there's he hasn't given us any indication he's

going to be like an 80 or 90 point guy now 60 or 70 points who can play two way and is a big guy like that's I'm not saying that's a bad player. I'm not even saying that can't be a number one center. Is that, if you're a team that views yourself as a Stanley Cup contender down the line, is that the guy that you're willing to pay the assets and then in a year pay the salary that's presumably going to be number one center money? Is that your guy? Maybe it is because, I mean, who else is going to become available? But I don't

I don't know. I think he's, I think he's a, I mean, if we're going to Craig Custance this and put him them into tiers, he's not on the Connor Austin level. Oh, you don't think so. That's interesting. Is he, is he, is he, is he one tick down on the Braden point level? No, probably not. No, I don't think so. Is he on the next tier beyond that? Who would you put in that tier? I mean, to me, he's, like, he's kind of already on like the Mika Zabanajad level, which. Yeah, that's what's going to be. I just saying, that's its advantage out scored 40 fucking goals last year. So he may not even be there.

Dubois had, what, 18? I think he had around 20. I think he might be on this advantage ad level, but you could make the argument that he's lower than that. I think he's definitely lower than that. And again, like, okay. Okay, is he better than William Carlson? Yes.

Yes. I'll just say this. Again, like, I'm not knocking the guy. And I'm not saying clearly if he's going to be traded, you pick up the phone and you get in on that. I'm just saying if when it comes to like, hey, we need a center. If you want to know what happens, if you keep going out and getting second line centers, ask the Nashville Predators how that strategy.

Absolutely. No, I think the Johansson comp is so good. I think because that's a guy who he had one incredible season for Columbus, and everybody's like, well, this is a future number one center, one of the best in the league. And like, he's good. And that's it. And there's nothing wrong with being just good. And Ryan Johansson has proven you can get real rich being just good.

But, you know, if Nashville has a chance to do over that contract, don't you think they pull the trigger on that? And by year, and by year three, Johansen had hit 33 goals too. Now here's here's the flip side. And then, you know, we can leave it on this as a positive. If you want to, you know, I'm sitting here going, ah, you know, do you go, out and get a center who's a two-way guy 60 points, is that really what you want? Ask the Blue is how it worked out with Ryan O'Reilly.

That's the flip side of going out and getting a guy like that. Dubois got a real, I think, well-rounded game that's only going to get better. He's still really young. So I do think from that aspect he's better than Johansson. Yeah, if you want to think he's a Ryan O'Reilly is a tree, Gerser on light.

That checks out for me. You know, like the Coke Zero version of those guys? Sure. You know, but is that let me ask you this yeah let me ask you this question if if you were the if you were the kinnucks and the blue jackets came to you and said dubois for bohorvette straight up do you do that trade no okay so that's that's where he is tier wise he's below beau horvette yeah i think that's right we've established this okay i i would say he's like in the top 20 to 25 centers in the league maybe maybe

and... In a 31 team league. Yeah, but like, that's still a number one center on a handful of teams. And there's nothing wrong with being that guy. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with it at all. Where do you think he ends up, Ryan? I already said it.

I think Vegas is just that they always seem to fucking do it. Why wouldn't this be another opportunity for them to do it? It's a very good point. Speaking of Vegas, today's episode of Puck Soup was sponsored by My Bookie. Pretty good. You know, my bookie's got all kinds of hockey bets for you. I love betting team totals. If you've seen me on Daily Wager, there's at least one or twice a week when I am on a team total.

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bet, win, and get paid at my bookie. We need to talk about to, well, let's talk about COVID for a second, just to, you know, bring the room down. The Dallas Stars will play their first game, scheduled to play their first game, we should say, on Friday. Carolina's had a couple of cancellations. Are we at where you thought we'd be with this stuff? are we a bit ahead of schedule with this stuff? Yeah, it's interesting. The NBA, it took like a month for it all to catch up with everybody,

but also, like, they didn't have a team testing positive, like even before the season started. So maybe I guess I would say they are kind of right on schedule games getting moved around and that kind of thing. It's not, you were never going to avoid it. So whatever. Yeah, you would have hoped that we go a little bit longer, but we knew this was coming, and there's maybe something to be said for getting it out of the way and getting,

not out of the way, but getting the first ones out of the way, so we can all sort of, anyone who still needed to adjust their thinking of how the season was going to go could do that. The Carolina one's interesting. They, you know, there's, they've had the one game moved. we're all expecting more. The team I'm kind of watching is Nashville because Nashville played Carolina the night before

and you're kind of sitting there going well. What does that look like? And that's one of the things we always wondered. This isn't the NFL where you've got a week between games. This is you're playing every second night for the most part. So any team that has an outbreak is probably going to have had an opponent who they just came through town

that they were just visiting. So far, from what I've seen, so good with Nashville, but maybe by the time people hear this, that might have changed, or maybe not. But that's kind of the fingers-cross thing is do we, because that's what you can't have if you're the NHL. One team, having to move a few games we can work with, but having it bounce around the league

just because of how the schedule move teams around is the disaster that hasn't happened yet, but let's hope we don't see anything about the predators come down. Yeah, I think I want to believe that some of this is then being overly cautious when it comes to the exposure and things like that. And what are the other things too? And I don't think the NHL has done a really good job explaining this. I know, shocker. But just because you're on the COVID list doesn't mean you have COVID.

I think it's really important to stress because I've noticed that in, the listing of people that are on that list, there are a lot of fans, at least on social media, that are getting confused by it. This is if you have an initial positive test, which remains unconfirmed, mandated isolation for symptomatic individuals, required quarantine as a high-risk close contact in accordance with the positive test protocol, or isolation based on confirmed positive tests or quarantine for travel. So like there's five different ways you end up on this list. That are very, very different like that.

Yeah, and in some cases, very loose, right? Because we've seen guys go on the list one day and then come off. And I can understand why some fans would be looking at that going, wait a second. Did he have a positive test? How was he off the list? Well, because it probably wasn't that. And again, I just wonder, I get that the NHL is trying to walk a line here and respect privacy and all of that.

but I just wonder if sometimes when you, when you're intentionally unclear, it just does more harm than good. Well, I mean, we saw that last summer with the fucking unfit to play bullshit. Yeah. And kudos to the league for not going back to that. Like they're allowing a little more light onto this, but compared to, I believe, Ryan can let us, like the NBA, I think is being a lot more straightforward. I know the NFL was. Yep. Yeah, it's weird because, like, I think, you know, the, the, the NHL is doing a good thing by just being, like, extra cautious.

And it's like, you know what, even if you have a close contact during the COVID protocol, that all, that all makes perfect sense. but yeah, I just, I wonder, you know, I don't think that would like necessarily get abused where like a team's like, oh yeah, yeah, you know, we're trying to dodge the salary cap by putting a guy in the COVID protocol or whatever. But yeah, the lack of clarity around it is just like, I don't know what the answer to what, you know, why is this guy out? Well, he's in the COVID protocol. Well, what does that mean? Well, let's just say he's in the COVID protocol. And you just, you just, you just, you just. end up, you know, it's like this really recursive thing where you're just back to saying, hey, my hands are tied here. That's it. And, oh, okay. And to be clear, that the list that comes out every night can be any of those things. Teams aren't canceling games because of close contact or whatever. Like this is, we can assume that there have been

multiple, probably positive tests when you see something like this. So it's, uh, but it is, it's confusing. situation. On the cancellation of games, what struck me about Carolina canceling its game or postponing, we should call it, was, you know, not only was it five players, but it also was Terri Vinen, who's a top liner or at best top six, Jordan Stahl, who's been on the list for a little bit, and Jacob Slavin, who's, you know, in my estimation, their most important defense man. Poor Dougie Hamilton doesn't get the fucking respect he deserves.

Who plays with fucking Slavin? So the, and that's by the way a reference to last season. I don't know who Dougie Hamilton is playing with this season. I haven't watched much of the hurricanes. You haven't had a chance. Yeah, I got COVID. So I, I, what struck me about it was these were really important players. Now, we've seen in the NFL, this sort of like unsympathetic.

We don't care if all of your quarterback. X-F-COVID stance, right? You're going to go ahead and play. And so they don't have a care about how important the players are that have it or can't play. NBA, we've seen big-name players out and they play on. I thought maybe there was something to the fact that these were key players that were out. But I checked in with an HLPA source and they're like, that's probably not how the protocol is working.

Like, it's just going to be the doctor's saying there's enough at-risk people that they shouldn't play. But should it work like that? Should there be a dispensation if both of your goalies say, like, have COVID and you have to play the third stringer? I mean, should it work like that? That's why you have a taxi squad, though, right? Yeah, that's, and how do you start making those calls? And you just open yourself up even if you make them, you know, a fair way, people are still going to complain that, oh, well, we had to play with this guy,

but this team, I think you have to do it the way the NFL did where it's, hey, you are responsible for having a team. There's probably a sense where it's, there's got to be some minimums. You have to have an X number of players available. And realistically, there's not really a realistic scenario where six players on your team can test positive, but everyone else is okay to play. Like there is a tipping point after a couple of players where it just, it's not going to work. But I don't think the league can get into that, you know, at least for now, maybe what happens in the playoffs?

Yeah. Not to think too far ahead. That's going to be potential mess. Well, I also like Greg's foray into trying to get into the Edmonton media sphere by being like, well, what are both goalies? I mean, it's crazy, right? Yeah, we shouldn't play until the goaltending improves, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's spend a little bit, a little bit of time on Mike Babcock.

Not a lot. We already talked about this after the NBC press conference debacle, but a little bit of time. I'm assuming we all read it. Start with you, Sean. What was your opinion of the Mike Babcock attempt at image? repair. Yeah, this is it. He finally gave his first interview.

He gave it to Pierre LeBron at the athletic where I work. So, you know, take whatever, however many grains of salt you need to have on what I might be about to say. I mean, I don't think if the goal here was that this is to be image repair, I'm not sure it's mission accomplished. because it's certainly a lot of the reaction, at least that I saw, was not overly positive. The focus was on two situations, the Mitch Marner situation and then the Friends in situation, which is of the two, the far more serious in terms of what's being suggested. I thought his reaction to the Marner thing was actually fine. he basically said, hey, look, it didn't happen exactly the way the perception is out there, but I screwed up, I own it, it's on me.

That's about what I think you want on something like this. It was the Franzen thing where it was, he, at least as it was presented, it created a perception where Mike Babcock was almost considering himself a victim. seemed to be, seemed to accept that something had gone wrong and that he had done wrong, but then kind of went right into his own mental health advocacy and, and that sort of thing, which is worth mentioning and can be part of the story. But it seemed as if it just felt to me like there was a PR script there of saying,

hey, when it comes to the Franzen situation, uh, I screwed up, I was wrong. I, I didn't handle it properly. And that is particularly,

uh, especially hard on me because I'm aware of the importance of these issues, et cetera, et cetera. And that first part kind of got skipped over. And it went right to, I'm an advocate, I'm this, I'm that, and missed the part of, hey, this is where I acknowledge that I've done something wrong. Yeah, he's in a hot dog suit going, we've got to figure out who did this. Yeah. It's hard to read, you know, that really hurt me, you know, when I was accused of hurting somebody. I'm just like, yeah, but what about the person you hurt?

Yeah, that's the fucking point. And like I get kind of where it's coming from because if he hadn't talked about any of that stuff, there would be people reading this saying, does he even understand what this means and what, you know, what it means to somebody in their mental health and everything? And I think he was trying to make it clear that, yes, I do understand this. I have seen this in people close to me and, you know, I'm aware. But again, it just, it felt like there was. much emphasis on that and not enough on what it actually happened and who did

it impacted. And I mean, look, there are a lot of hockey fans out there who are done with Mike Babcock no matter what he says. I mean, there was nothing he could say that wouldn't get a reaction of it's not enough and get rid of this guy. There's also a lot of hockey fans that are absolutely willing to forgive and forget and they don't understand why this was even an issue, and let's just get Mike Babcock back behind a bench and all's good.

And they were going to give the thumbs up to anything he said, no matter how inadequate. I think whatever group of fans were maybe undecided or maybe waiting to hear from them, like I said, I don't think this is a step that he had to do before he goes back on TV like nothing happened. but if the idea here was to open the doors back up, I'm not sure it does it in the eyes of a lot of fans. I'm sure it probably does it in the eyes of a lot of GMs in the league who probably were in that second group that we're ready to forgive and forget no matter what

as long as he did something like this. But I can't imagine too many people who were on the fence that are now convinced that this guy's good to go. Yeah, because he fucked up. Like, all he had to do is be contrite. And all he had to do was show that moment of baseline self-reflection necessary to repair his image. And he didn't have it. That's not all he had to do because he, there is, he is contrite.

He is, or at least he's showing some amount of that, whether it's sincere or not is up to people to decide. I don't think that's all he had to do. I don't think there was like some, that the bar was very low here. I think the bar was set pretty high. I don't think he clears it is the issue. But I don't bite the idea that this was an easy one to do and he just blew it. I think it was going to be a challenge no matter how he came at it. We talked about it before.

It's very easy. He just say the tactics that I used when I coached were wrong. I understand that now. And if I am blessed to coach in this league again, I'm not going to do it the same way. Like, I understand what I did to Johann Franz and is wrong. I understand what I did to do a lot of other players is wrong. Like, it was easy.

That was the only thing he needed to do. If he had said those exact words, I don't think the conversation today is all that much different. Oh, I completely disagree. If he doesn't go and spill a bunch of fucking word salad all over the athletic and instead goes and does a TV interview with TSN where he talks to Drager on camera and says the way, I coached was not the way that I will coach again and that, you know, I've learned the error of my ways. I mean, fuck, that is a billion times different than stumbling around and trying to make himself the victim.

I mean, it is night and die, Sean. It would be better. It would be better. I'm just saying I think that a lot of the people, a lot of the people that we would absolutely still be seeing the same articles and the same tweets and the same everything saying this is not sufficient because for a lot of people and. Maybe rightly so. There wasn't anything that he was going to say that it was, but, but I don't, I don't, I don't, I agree with you that that would have been better.

I don't necessarily think it would have made that much of a difference, right or wrong. What did you think, Ryan? Yeah, just all that. There, there was, you know, I was definitely ready for him to, I mean, the fact that it took this long, wasn't exactly holding my breath that he was going to be like, you know what, I figured out exactly what the issue is, here's what I'm, here's what I did to fix it, blah, blah, blah. I, I didn't have any illusions about that. I thought he might do the thing of like, well, look, when I was in the league, this is how we did

it. So that became a coach. This is how I did it. And, you know, you do see a lot of coaches go, well, look, you can't talk to players today the way. And even, again, to go back to the Pierre McGuire thing, he's like, you know what? Like a lot of players used to get coached this way, and players today don't like to be coached that way. And maybe you have to change with the times and blah, blah, blah. And I think that, you know, I certainly would have been more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt of like, well, you know what, I don't know that I want him behind the bench immediately or anything like that.

but if if the opportunity presents itself and like he he really does seem to like, you know, with these quotes he's giving, like understand. Because that's the other thing. Like maybe he's just not the best spoken guy. You know what I mean? I think that's fine. Which is why he has a TV job now, obviously. Right.

Well, you know, again, these are hockey players. You know, I just go hard to the net. You head down just fortunate enough to be there. All the credit to my line mates, all that shit. Like, I'm not saying Mike Babcock went through a bunch of public speaking classes, and this was the result is all I'm saying. And so I was willing to even give him the benefit of the doubt of, you know what, even if he doesn't say the exact right thing, if he just kind of generally comes across as,

quote, unquote, getting it, I'd be willing to give him, or more willing to be like, you know what, take another crack at it. You know, you spent a lot of years as a highly respected coach. I don't know that this should preclude you from ever coaching in hockey again. You know, like as bad as it was, I feel like he should have gotten a second crack at it. But now I go, oh, I think he didn't fucking get it really. Yeah. That's where I am on it too.

The two things that stood out for me, one, the part where Pierre does ask if he's going to change anything, you know, before his next job. And, you know, Babcock's response is, well, you know, you change a lot from job to job. You change as a person. You change as a coach. And you're thinking, okay, well, maybe he's going to get into the whole, like, error of my waist thing. And it's just, it just, oh, you know, you learn you got to take the F3 on the fourth check and move him over to the, you know, like, it was like, goddamn coach speak instead of actually like being a human, which made me nuts. And the other thing was, at one point, instead of being like, yeah, I'm going to be a. different guy, I'm going to coach differently.

He actually suggests maybe the solution to all this is that there's a handler that tells him what he's got over the line. Yeah, exactly. Like a babysitter. That was the big one of like, look, I just need someone to tell me when I'm being too mean to everybody. And it's like, that's insane. I don't think that's how it works, dude. Like, that's, oh, that was rough. That was rough.

All right. Well, he'll probably be on TV this weekend, so you can watch the wit and wisdom of Mike Babcock. I hope NBC had the good sense of hiring Nick Lidstrom to sit next to him, so Babcock could be successful on television. Oh, boy. Very good. Hey, that's not fair. Nick Lidstrom didn't play for the Canadian Olympic team. That's true, too. Dries Bergeron did.

He needs to be on a panel with Sidney Crosby, Nick Lidstrum, and J.S. Jigar. and then we're good. Then it'll never be bad. In better, more entertaining news, Jakob Vorichek had a press availability recently. That's true. In which Philadelphia Inquirer columnist Mike Sealski, I'm going to guess it is.

Sure, why not? Asked him a question about the game the Flyers had played. And Jake said, Does it matter what I say, Mike? You're going to write fucking shit every time. So it doesn't matter what you say. And I think the question was like, doesn't feel different playing in front of an empty crowd or something.

He goes, yeah, it feels different. I mean, we got four points out of these first two games. I wasn't even going to answer your question because you were such a weasel. It's not even funny. Next question. First off, he and rolling in his... I was going to say, best use of weasel. since Bobby Heenan without question.

Oh, and then he next questioned him at the end of that answer. So, Sealski did an interview with Crossing Broad in which he kind of indicated where he thinks the root of some of this is. And apparently he wrote a column in 2019, the Flyers were off to a slow start. Elaine Vigno was talking. He said he needs more from his veteran. in players. He's saying this during practice.

And he noted that Voracek and James Van Riemstake were laughing as Vinyo was speaking, and he put that in the column. And and so he I guess he puts out the column on the website, and he

said, Flyers, Public Relations got in touch because they thought I was writing that Voracek and Van Riemsnake were laughing at Elaine Vigno. So I apologized and said that I could understand why they saw it that way. I went online and we fixed the column at that point to clarify that I didn't know specifically what they were talking about. And I said, I'd be willing to smooth things over with Jake. And then I would speak to him at practice server over the phone. We fixed the column and yada,

yada, yada. So that's where he thinks the root of all this is, although people showed, what, three dozen tweets in which this guy dragged Vorichick. Yeah, and like screenshots from columns where, you know, he was basically giving the Voracek like the mid-2000s Joe Thornton and Boston treatment where it's like we all just decided he's the problem and but this was like a one-man campaign and then you know people were or you know Jake Voracek himself I think said that or like maybe tweeted that like he had you know had many opportunities to talk to him in the dressing room and like never even made eye contact with him or something like that. It's just a case of like a guy wrote something that a player didn't like and probably was maybe going a little overboard and criticizing that player in addition to all that, maybe even before that. And so Jake Voracek was like, I don't fucking like this guy. Yeah. Which he has the right to do and to feel. And there's as people have pointed out, there are ways to deal with this typically in a media player relationship.

And some of those ways are not available right now. And maybe that's, you know, this is the sort of thing where they should have just hashed it out after practice one day and none of us would know about it. And you can't do that. So I don't know. I don't know the whole background. I'm not interested in the whole soap opera of whether board checks right or wrong to feel that way. I've said this before. I think it's garbage when players do this.

I think it's garbage when coaches do it, John Tortorella, whoever. The media screws up often. The media is absolutely fair game for complaint and criticism and all the rest of this. But publicly trying to embarrass somebody in front of not only all their colleagues, but in this case, however many people are watching, I think is a garbage move. I think even if it's justified, I mean, if the waiter screws up your order, it's okay to be mad. But if you stand up and start dropping F bombs in front of them, at them, in front of everyone, you're being a jerk.

Yeah. Even if they screwed up, you're being a jerk right now. Don't do that. And I think it's the same when a player or whoever acts like this in this situation. And I'm not a fan. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's hilarious the way that apparently we all do. I get why it's a story. I get why it's entertaining. I get why people notice it.

But when people are like, oh, this is hilarious. No, there's nothing funny about this. He's not making jokes. He's trying to humiliate somebody he doesn't like in a situation where, justified or not, like, find a way to deal with it like a grown-up. That's what I would like to see. I don't have a problem with a player popping off on the media. I think it's a one-way conversation so often when it comes to criticism that if they want to pop off and whatever, that's fine.

I've seen it happen. It's happened to me. It's fine. what I didn't like about this is the Zoom muscles aspect of it. Like if you want to pop off on somebody because he's right in front of your face with a microphone in the locker room or if he's staring right in front of you at a press conference, it's a bit different than doing it when you're separated by fucking Miles and computers. It's a little bit different when it's Larry Brooks can tell you to go piss up a rope right back to your face versus this situation. Versus the PR guy hitting the button and cutting you off.

You know, like I, there's been, there's been a little Zoom muscling, I think, in the last year with NHL players and coaches and the way they've handled these press conferences. They're all cowards. They're all cowards. I'm, uh, that's right. I, journalists are, sports writers are the brave ones. Players are cowards. But no, but there's always that, that aspect, though, Ryan, where, you know, when you write something critical of somebody, there's always the, well, would you go. I don't know what you're talking about.

There's always that. Would you go to the locker room and say that to his face? And, I mean, I would turn it around on Vorichek. Like, I assume that he would say it to this dude's face, but he didn't. He did it over Zoom. He dunked them on him during Zoom. So while I don't think it necessarily needed the NHL, you know, watchdogging that apparently happened behind the scenes where they talk to him and stuff about his behavior, I do think

there's something to be said for, like, this whole thing occurring in a socially distanced way versus the way it probably should occur, which is either one-on-one. They should have to wrestle. I agree. In the locker room. I think that'd be awesome, personally. No shirts.

The most famous thing I was ever there in person for was I was there for the Larry Brooks, Dan Boyle thing when Dan Boyle retired or like played his last game and literally said that he wouldn't, he wouldn't talk to the media until Brooks left the locker room, which I know wasn't the favorite of a lot of people, but it was surreal to be in that moment. All right. Anything else to talk about hockey-wise? I feel like we've kind of gone through it.

Yeah, I'm trying to think. I guess not. Yeah. Oh, I wanted to bring up something basketball-wise. This struck me when you were talking about the NBA before. I watched my first Nets game in a minute With Hart They look fucking good, don't they?

Jesus Christ I mean, Hardin looks You know, revitalized and Durant's just next level Oh, Durant looks so good this year Somebody on Twitter said it this morning He's been a treat to watch He's really been incredible

And then, you know, Kyrie's coming back too So it's going to be one of the best teams, if not the best team in basketball There's only one ball out there, Greg. That's what they are. That is, and I heard Charles Berkeley say the other day that he's like, I'm a little bit worried about the rebounding. So there you go. So maybe the rebounding is a problem too.

But here's the thing. I've been a Nets fan all my life. I have lived and died with this team in many ways. Never heard you mention them once, but okay. Continue. I have, well, you have to remember that for a good stretch of us talking like on this podcast. I understand. Not only were they terrible, but they had no future.

They traded away their future to Boston. Yeah, I remember. I had divorced myself from the Nets for a good number of years because of that trade and how fucking terrible it was. That said, like, you know, I'm a Nets fan. You know, I grew up going to games. I grew up where it was me and my dad and a bunch of Michael Jordan fans watching the Nets lose the Bulls by 50 points. Like, you know, I was at those games. I went on Drozzen Petrovich night when they raised his number of the

the rafters. Like, I'm a Nets fan. My problem is that I don't really know how to be this kind of Nets fan or NBA fan. Like, my, my, my, my, my fandom is very much tied to your player drafts, your team drafts players, and you watch them suck, and then they get good, and maybe they then they go outside the organization, and they get more good players, and they join the players that are the core of the team. Like, the real traditional kind of, you're used to be in the Columbus Blue Jackets of the NBA. Well, yeah, or even, you know, back in the day when the Nets went and got Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd and Vince Carter.

Like, it was still also Richard Jefferson was there and guys like Kerry Kittles were there. Like, there were always that homegrown aspect that were real important contributors to the team on top of the stars that they went out and got. I'm not used to this to this NBA fandom that has certainly been in vogue for since LeBron took his talents to Miami. where just a bunch of guys show up on your team one there. Like, all right, this is our team now. Yeah, and you just start fucking yamming on the entire Eastern Conference. Absolutely. It's very strange that that can just happen out of nowhere.

Same thing with the Clippers where they, you know, they went from being the fucking L.A. Clippers to they had, you know, the, what were they, Splash Town or whatever they were calling themselves back then? like when Blake Griffin was first coming into the league. Yeah. And they went out and got a bunch of really good players. So it's, your team becomes a vessel for, uh,

empowered free agents to just like show up and, and play there. Like it's not even like like, like, that's what, that's what, that's what your franchise becomes. It's not, we're building towards something and now you're the final piece of that puzzle.

It's like, you're the puzzle. And you've just, and we're just a table for you to construct. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of that, you, you, it just goes back to, wow, they're in Brooklyn and New York City now as opposed to North Jersey. Right. Which, which makes them certainly a destination for, for a lot of guys.

But, yeah, I mean, you know, you can, you can kind of build a super team. Like, they did it in fucking Cleveland with Kyrie, LeBron, and Kevin Love, and they won a title. Like, you know, not that San Francisco. like fucking Cleveland or whatever, but San Francisco, Oklahoma City tried to, had a super team for a while with Westbrook and Hardin and Durant. Right. So, you know, it can just, if teams do the right maneuvering and free up enough cap space, they can go out and get three of the 25 best players in the world.

So I guess, I guess my question is this. As a lifelong fan of the franchise, Like, I'll be very happy if they win the NBA title. That'd be great. I've never seen my team do it. I've seen my team lose in the finals twice, but I've never seen my team win the NBA title. But, like, what does that even mean? Like, I don't have any emotional connection to Durant, Hardin, and Kyrie at all.

Like, they're very entertaining players. I'm happy they're on my team. But it's not going to feel the same way as, like, the devil's winning the cup. Well, let's put it this one. You think the Golden State Warriors fans who didn't exist before six years ago give a shit? Oh, I, you know, like it's a little different because obviously. But how did they build that team, though? Yeah, they built that team for drafting and developing.

Okay, a better example. You think Lakers fans give a shit about this? Yeah, but they're Lakers fans. Fair enough. I'll just tell you, Matt, I'm not a basketball guy, but as the, as the, you know, quote-unquote fan of a team that went and traded for a guy who got airlifted in for one year, won a championship and then left, didn't care. It was still pretty awesome. I wouldn't treat that for anything, man.

You'll be fine. But weren't most of the Raptors homegrown, though? Yeah, and they just went out and got Kyrie. Yes. But I guess another good example is the Boston Celtics from the original Big Three era. They had Paul Pierce, but they went out and got Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. And then they were like, oh. Oh, yeah, we're fucking unbelievable now after years of being like, well, Paul Pierce is good.

And nobody in Boston is like, this has actually been, you know, sullied by the fact that we had to go out and get Kevin fucking Durant. So Sully didn't. Sully didn't believe it was sullied. No, he didn't. Definitely didn't. But there's different degrees to it. Like, there's the homegrown team. And then there's the team that has the one great star.

And then it's like, we've got to surround this guy with better. players. And that was kind of the Paul Pierce Grinette thing. And then there's what's happening with the Nets, which is that we are dog shit. Yeah, just we're just making a team out a whole cloth. Yeah. And I don't know. I honestly, as a fan, I don't know how to feel about this. Like, like, you know, there was a certain satisfaction to seeing your team build something and win a championship. And in this case, it's just that we had the cap space and the money and like you said, the location. Yeah, I don't, I don't think you're going to give a shit when

when they win. Because then, because then if they do it next year, it's like, Like, hey, the Nets from last year, they, they, they won a title again. Crazy. And they, fucking very well could. If, if all those, I don't know what the contract status on all those guys are, but I think they're all, they're kind of for a while. So, yeah, they're going to, they're going to be hooping on the fucking Eastern Conference for at least two years. That'd be great. And maybe my, my emotional connection with the team changes because of that.

But there's also a part of it that's like, you know, acknowledges the nomadic existence of the NBA star. And then what if it's just like, all right, maybe. Maybe Kyrie has another friend he wants to play with, you know, on some other fucking team. And you couldn't be surprised by that. You know, he fucking just like left the team for a couple of weeks there. Whatever. Right. Yeah.

I just feel like from year to year, it's kind of, it's not even a situation of, of like, oh, I, you know, this franchise means something to me. Yeah. It's just like, we're my friends. Again, Lakers, Lakers fans aren't like, well, at least like Kyle Kuzmo was involved in us winning a title. They're like, we have fucking LeBron and AD. Who gives a shit? We won a title with like two unbelievable players. That goes back to Shaq.

I mean, you know, they fucking bought in Shaq to be the, you know, a centerpiece of the team. Well, I think the Kobe stance are going to be coming for you now for saying that Shaq was the centerpiece of those teams. Look, we all know Shaq made Kobe. At least that's what Shaq said. I think that was in one of his Shaq Fu songs that he made Kobe. All right. We should finish up with a little overrated, underrated this week. It's a couple of different options.

Guys on the Nets. Uh-oh. Okay. Let's see. All-time, least favorite. Keith Van Horn. Man, what a bust. The Great White Hype.

Do you have a favorite basketball player of all time, Sean? No. I'm trying to think even who. it would probably just be the big names. My main basketball experience has been being, pretending to be a fan of the Bulls back when everybody was doing that, being really into NBA jam for a summer, and then the Raptors in 2019.

That's pretty much proven. Sounds like this is a big Kyrie guy then. I, um, my favorite, my favorite net of all time is Petrovich. My favorite player of all time, it might have been Barclay. I fucking loved watching Barclay play. He was so fun to watch.

Sir Charles himself, the amount of rebound. Yeah, and a guy built like a shit brick house in a league where everybody was built like, you know, Elajuan. It was fucking funny shit to watch and play. And also, you know, the greatest example I think of all time of a guy who played and everybody was like, this guy is going to kick ass when you he goes on television, and then lo and behold, he kicked ass when he went on television. The anti-Ronic, if you will. Yeah. It's the same with Shaq, where everybody was like, boy, I can't wait until he's done and he goes on TV and he goes on TV and is just like instantly, this guy's a fucking star.

I knew it. This guy's a star. Yeah, he's tremendous. Anybody who saw blue chips would have known that, though. Boy, oh, boy. What a flick. What's the best basketball movie of all time? Is it Hoosiers?

I think that's what people would say. Yeah, Hoosiers and Hoop Dreams is the other one. Hoop Dreams is... If you're counting that question. But, yeah, we're not counting documentaries. Yeah. Teen Wolves. I mean, Hoosiers is really good, but also, like,

maybe it's a bit overstated at this point. You know what I watched over the summer that I'd never seen before is Love and Basketball, which is a great movie. Fantastic. Yeah. Wetman can't jump. has to be in there somewhere.

White man can't jump rocks. That's so good. That movie where one of the Wayans brothers is a ghost and helps is... Sixth man. Yeah. Obviously. The one where Kevin Bacon goes to Africa

to recruit a player. The air up there. Yeah. I always get that confused of the George Clooney movie. This should be like our new thing. We just vaguely describe basketball movies. The one where

Whoopi Goldberg is the coach? Eddie. I think so. The one where they kidnap Damon Waynes. Celtic Pride. There it is. Oh, the one where they play the Monstars. Oh, that's a tough one.

I don't know that one off the top. The one where the teen becomes a wolf. Another tough one. You know, I was never big on semi-pro. People like semi-pro. the Will Ferrell movie. I just think it's such an inferior sports movie to Talladega Nights

if we're going Will Ferrell sports movie genre. The correct answer, by the way, for the best basketball movie I saw recently, the way back, it's fucking great. The Affleck. I still haven't watched that. It's so good. He's unbelievable in it.

I love it. Is there a scene where he puts a giant cardboard cut out of his girlfriend? friend in a garbage can outside of his house because he's hit rock bottom? No, that's a different thing. That's a different thing? Yeah. And this is a fire in a barrel.

That's from Mighty Ducks, too. Sorry, D2, the Mighty Ducks are back. D2, the Mighty Ducks. Please get it right. But Patrick Sharp dropped a fucking Team Iceland reference on NBC last night during the game. I was really impressed. That's freaking epic. Way too hit for the room.

Overrated, underrated favorite favorite. least favorite. The two that struck my fancy. One was TV theme songs, which was actually put forth by a few people. I don't know how you feel about that. Well, what's the other one? The other one is from our friend Stephen King, not the author. Oh, I was going to say, Dolores Claiborne. He's like, creepy things and dairy. No, vacation destinations with Stephen's suggestion. Let's do TV one. Yeah, vacation just seems cruel at this point. Yeah. Taunting us. My backyard.

My den. All right. TV theme songs. So we go, overrated TV theme song. Hmm. Brady munch. Oh, told the whole story of the show. And I like a theme song that does that. I just think it's... I don't think it tells the whole story. I think they go, you know what? The setup for the show...

show is entirely in the themes. Like, you don't, you don't, like, see, uh, the, the parents meet. You don't, you don't see them moving in together. It's all just like, it's all just, like, joined in progress and it's like, oh, we all live together already. You didn't, you didn't see the first 38 seconds of the show. I've never, I've never heard the Brady Bunch described as being in media res, but you're right. We just kind of just dive right into it. Do you have an overrated theme song, Sean? Yeah, friends. Oh, wow.

Spicy take. It's fine, but it's, you know, the fact that they then had to go and turn it into a real song and, you know, all that. Like, yeah, we all like, we all like the clapping part. It was the opposite. Oh, I don't think it was. I think it was a theme song first, and then they went and, like, made a second verse and everything so they could put it out there. I think you might be right. I kind of recall that.

I could be wrong. But that's the story I remember hearing, but maybe it's not right. The Rembrandts, I'll be there. Why do I know that that's the Rembrandts? I don't know. I've been talking a lot with Ruby about how we used to consume music back in the day and the idea that you'd have to buy the entire Rembrandt's album for that song. And then probably find out that it's the only song in that album that sounds like that.

That happened all the time where you buy it for one song and then, like, lo and behold, you find out the rest of it is like nothing like it. Like if you bought an extreme album for more than words and found out, uh-oh, that's not what they do. Dude, I have half my CD collection is just stuff that I bought for one song. And then that's it. Sean, you're right. It was, uh, the original theme is under a minute long, but they also recorded a three-minute version. But, and I didn't know this, uh, REM's shiny happy people was supposed to be the theme song to friends.

and REM was... What? This offer isn't good enough. So they went out and got, like, Warner Television went out and got the Rembrandts to do a rip-off version of it, basically. Wow. Holy shit. Incredible. You learn something new.

Okay. Underrated. Oh, wait. Oh, my overrated. My overrated is Giligan's Island. And I'll tell you why. the original theme song to Gilligan's Island had

did not include the professor and Marianne. Yeah, and all the rest. And all the rest. And I think if they had kept it at all the rest, oh, I disagree. I think if you had kept it at all the rest, it would have added an air of mystery to the show. Will these people who aren't mentioned in the theme song?

I mean, that would include like Scooby and Scrappy Do. that would have included the Harlem Globe Trotters. Right. But it's also like not only who will show up on the show, but will the professor of Marianne survive? Sure. Why are they not in the theme song? It would have added layers of mystery to the Gilligan's Island that were completely missing when they name-checked the professor and Marianne in the thing. And also, everyone is known by their sort of like, they're like nom de plume.

like they're known by what Gilligan, the Skipper 2, the millionaire, his wife, the movie star. All the right. So only Gilligan and Mary, like, why isn't Mary Ann, why doesn't she get some cool nickname? The farm girl, the country girl.

She's the only one named by name other than the namesake of the show. It bugs me to know when that theme song. So that's my overrated. Underrated, Ryan. You know, I like anyone that is theme from blank and I think I have to go here

theme from Bonanza good song really good I'm gonna go like my favorite just genre of TV theme songs is like the 80s sitcom so I'm gonna throw some love at perfect strangers

I think one of the absolute best of that that breed Yeah, it rocks. It's good. Standing on the Wings of My Dreams is... Yeah, it's a great song on its own. It has nothing to do with the show, really, but, you know...

No, yeah. Is that one of the ones written by Alan Thick? I think they were all written by... Alan Thick wrote a lot of them. I'm going to look this up here. I think you might be right on that one. I think he might have written that one. Let's see.

He wrote... The themes from different strokes, the facts of life, which once you know that, and then just half the game shows on TV, including the original Wheel of Fortune theme song. Wow. Yeah, so there you go. Okay, underrated for me would be the X-Files, which is one of my favorite themes of all time. and I just think the X-Files has sort of fallen out of the public eye

especially because the revival of the show was pretty dog shit Yeah, well, I mean, that's why it hasn't fallen out of the public eye. They did a revival of it like two years ago. But it was bad. I mean, it didn't really make any impact. Oh, I remember.

That theme song set the fucking tone, man. Yeah, really good. Really, really good. Real good stuff. Oh, what are we on now? Favorite. Favorite, yeah. Oof.

So many good theme songs No, no, here This is the answer The answer is theme from cheers That's right up there That's a real one knows your name And they're always glad Like you know you hear you know it from that first piano key

Yep That's that one's a great one And also it also set you know what You know it from the first line Like you're gonna you know The kind of bar flies you're gonna meet Yep Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got.

These are hardworking fucking hard scrabble blue collar motherfuckers. You just want to kick back with a beer. Taking a break from all your worries? Sure would help a lot. Wouldn't you like to get away? I love it. Great pick. I've got three and I can't.

I can't choose because it's just, it's like picking my, first of all, we talked about with Brady Bunch, you talked about the theme song that explains what the show's about. Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Hell yeah. Just a classic. especially the extended version that doesn't cut out the whole middle that makes it make sense. So I put that one up there. It's just, I know we're kind of more not doing sports shows,

but the theme from this week in baseball to this day gets me fired up. I want to get outside and like start throwing the ball around it when I hear that. And the other one, and I feel like if I had to pick one, I feel like this is the one, the theme from Gary Shandling Show. Yep, it's Gary Shandling. All-time classic. I will say this, though, if we're going to include, like, sports-related TV shows, the answer is Hockey Night in Canada.

That would be up there, too, for sure. Yeah. I think ESPN's hockey theme is better than hockey. No, you know what? I take it all back. Round ball rock. Favorite, again, there's so many choices. By the way, I'm going to retroactively change my underrated.

Because I think the X-Files theme is pretty rated. I do have an underrated one that I had under-favorit that I'll now move. to that category, which is the theme from Luke Cage. Did you watch Luke Cage, Ryan? No. Oh, fuck. It's so good. I highly recommend the theme to Luke Cage.

Probably one of the better TV Marvel things that's happened until Wanda Vision. Favorite for me. It's between three. The Price is Right. Tremendous theme song. Gets you right in the mood. And then two that are kind of in the same genre. I love the theme to Roseanne.

I always felt like it really set the tone again for what you're about to see. It's big and brassy, but it's also very blue collar. But I got to tell you, I think the best theme song of all time might be Sanford and Son. It's so good. Yeah, it's really good. I mean, if we're doing honorable mentions, moving on up is incredible. incredible. Yes.

Yeah, I mean, what's the name of that show? Hawaii 5-0 has an amazing theme song. Oh, fuck yeah. Absolutely. Oh, we could go on for days with Honorable mentions. Let me just one, one to throw out there just because you kind of broke the seal on game shows.

Definition. I don't even know if you guys got that show. Yeah, I don't know what that is. It's a Canadian game show. The theme song was, it's the, they used as the theme. song, the same song they used from Austin Powers, the Quincy Jones instrumental. Really? But this was before.

That's where Mike Myers got it from. Got it from? It's a Canadian show. That's killer. And there's a great, a Canadian rap band actually did like a version of a song called My Definition, which was a great big hit that uses that as, like, I mean, what's more Canadian than taking a Canadian game show theme song and dropping Rappler? over it. Still one of the great moments in Canadian music, I've recommended highly.

Oh, the other one to mention, of course, Mission Impossible. Yes. Oh, yeah. Incredible. Like, so good they even use it in the movies to this day. And everybody's like, yeah, when the theme song hits, like, you know, after the first act or the cold open or whatever, everybody's like, let's fucking go. We're ready to run through a wall with Ethan Hunt here. I like it. Least favorite, Ryan. Hmm. I think, I almost, I feel bad saying this. Because there's nothing, it's nothing against the show itself,

but I think the answer has got yourself a gun by the Alabama 3. The theme from The Sopranos. For the Sopranos? It is a horrible song. You know, and I just heard it 70 times because I rewatch the whole show in like a month. It stinks. It's really bad. And so I, my theory was always that, you know, like all the music and the Sopranos is like really bad.

And it, my theory was that it was just to be like, this is what these horrible people think is good, you know? And it turns out people are just, you know, I've read. subsequently that it's just David Chase has really bad taste in music. So it happens. And then the other one that I did want to mention, just because I didn't like the show as a kid. And, you know, it was always on after The Simpsons. And so I would hear the opening, like, line or two before I got up to change the channel was the theme from MASH. Suicide is painless.

Oh. Oh, that's, yeah, that's a controversial. That's a good, that's a controversial pick. I think a lot of people like them. But it's just because of the association of this show I don't like is on, and my favorite show is over. It sucks. Get out of here.

That's, and that's kind of where I'm going with mine too, because I remember as a kid at 6 o'clock on TV Ontario, they did two kid shows, half an hour at 6 and then again at 6.30, and then at 7 o'clock right away, public TV, there's no commercials. Doctor Who came on,

and that opening scared the crap. It's so scary. Oh my God, that's such a good pick. My parents would rush to turn it off, but I would still, like, the first 30 seconds of that, and then that it's, so I'm to this day. So that's my pick with a runner-up honorable mention to the theme from Frazier, where you just let the star of the show sing some nonsense song that nobody understands. I understand it perfectly. You do not. He hears the blues of Colin.

Yeah. And then what? There's some toss out and scramble day. He references his time in prison, right? And then he goes from there. Well, no, I mean, like he's talking about the cooks who call his show. I hear the blues a call on toss salad and scrambled eggs. Mercy.

And maybe he seemed a bit confused, but baby, I got you pegged, right? Like, it's, again, explaining the concept of the show. But he doesn't know what to do with those tossed salad and scrambled eggs. Like, the person who he has pegged, well, I think that's a young. man named Niles Crane. Yeah, a lot of tossing and pegging in that theme song now that we hear it for what it is.

Doctor Who is such a great pick because that was the same way. When I would hear that Woo- Dude, don't. Come on. I'm not scary as shit. Yeah. And then like it would come on and it's a

guy in grandma's overcoat running away from a guy in a Halloween mask wearing a cardboard box, you know. Yeah, but there's some robot trying to shoot him. Like, I'm not ready for this, man. I was just watching a singing bear. I don't need this dropped on me right now. The Dalek voice is also very scary, too.

The Exterminate voice. It's scary. I'm sorry. I don't want to, I don't want you to live, relive your trauma. Three for least favorite for me. All right, two for least favorite for me. No, three. Mad TV had a horrible theme song.

it was trying so hard to be the In Living Color theme song. Well, again, Greg, oh my God. In Living Color should absolutely be on a favorite list. Thank you for bringing that up because that one, there were two versions. Both were excellent. But again, Greg, if we're talking about shows that set the stage or theme songs that set the stage for the show, a theme song that says you are not watching Mad TV. Yeah, they had us.

Right. Or shows that, or theme songs that reflect. like the quality of the show. Extraordinarily good point, Ryan. Also, least favorite, to go into the sports genre for a second, the CBS football theme is bad when compared to all of the other football themes. Fox obviously has the, you know, Slay Ride adjacent song, Monday Night Football has an iconic theme.

CBS is that, do, do, do, do, do. It's very pedestrian, very sort of like they made up a theme because they needed it a movie kind of theme. And but my least favorite, I don't know if you guys are aware of this, but the Star Trek show Enterprise had a Diane Warren-penned power ballad

called Faith of the Heart that was its theme song. Now, you think of Star Trek, you think of like the Alexander Courage theme from the TV show, you think of all the music from the movies. This was like a sung song that opened up every episode of Enterprise.

And it has to, to be the worst theme because it sparked petitions by Trekkies and or Trekkers to eliminate the song from the show and they eventually dropped it. Yeah. And these are famously people who have a really balanced and rational take on everything. So you can tell that it must have been bad. Dead life, won't you people? It's one of the greatest SNL sketches of all time.

Yeah, so that's my choice. Good choice. Spirited category, much better than my vacation is going to the park down the street. I like going to Hawaii. Okay, man, cool. Good stuff. My vacation is using the other bathroom in my house. We'll revisit the vacation wanted a more appropriate time, is what I'm trying to say.

All right. That's fuck suit for this week. Masks up, people. Uh, that's Puck's it for this week. Thanks to my bookie for sponsoring the show. What's his name? My bookie. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's my dad.

My dad, by the way, since, uh, sports gambling was legalized in New Jersey, uh, texts me every weekend with his, his, his, his little $30 parlays. Uh, I, I, I, I really hope this isn't, uh, hereditary. Because he might be the worst gambler I've ever fucking seen. He, he picked the over. in the Bill's game, the Bill's Ravens game this past weekend on a day that had like Gale Forced wins and just, it was a bad scene.

It was like 3-0 after like the first half or some shit. You read my stuff on ESPN, more specifically on ESPN, and you can watch me multiple days a week on daily wager on ESPN 2 talking hockey and hockey wagering. Sign up for the Puck suit Patreon. We do bonus episodes. We do a weekly mailbag. Me and Sean already recorded this week's mailbag.

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And it would be appreciated. Right. Absolutely. That's a Puckoo for this week. Congratulations to the United States for making it through. It all did it, folks. A couple hundred thousand people very recently did not.

But other than... Oh, that's true. I wasn't talking about that. I mean, those people, it was very sad, and it was a very touching memorial that we had this week. But, you know, it was an interesting week in the U.S. to say the least. I promise people we didn't deal politics on the show anymore, so I'm not going to get into it.

But, you know, go USA. That's the show for this week. Thanks for the great suggestions. on the topic, Stephen, and we will talk to you next week. Good luck to Jack Hughes in all his endeavors. Take care. Bye.

See you. Bye-bye. Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of Hagi and Nancet. Book 2.

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