Puck Soup - Dunk on Keith

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

The boys discuss the Edmonton trade and Ken Holland's master plan; Pierre McGuire joins the Senators; the Lightning win, and then break, the Stanley Cup; what's next for Montreal; Tarasenko derby; the expansion draft; and the best and worst baseball sluggers! Sponsored by Brooklinen and Mack Weldon.

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to whatever you commute. But we also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of Hagi and Nonsense. Part 2. I'm Greg Wischinski of ESPN. I would like to just reiterate, because I feel like it's very important to reiterate it this week.

I have absolutely nothing to do with the SP Awards. They are fan-voted. I didn't even know they were happening. Okay, I did know they were happening. But I didn't have any input on them. It's a fan-voted award. So blame yourselves. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects.

Only like 15% less deserving of Player of the Year award for the ESPs this year. I'm Sean Wagner from the Athletic, and I voted for Patrick Kane because, like Ken Holland, I stopped watching the Blackhawks in 2016. And I said, just the same. Well done. Well done. It's our first show since the Cup final. So we'll talk about that later. But does that not feel like it was a month ago already? It truly does. Well, it doesn't feel like it's a month ago because the boat parade just happened yesterday as we do the show. So it's still kind of a little fresh on the mind. We'll get to all that stuff later. I don't want to

get ahead of ourselves because Monday was, it was epic. Monday was an epic day. It rocked. Let's start with the last thing first, which is the trade of Duncan Keith from the Chicago Blackhawks, the Epiton Oilers, the trade we talked about last episode that was going to happen. That actually did happen. Lambert, you could take your victory lap because pretty much you were a soothsayer on not only how the trade would go down, but also the reaction to it. Yeah, I mean, you don't have to be a genius to know how the Edmonton media is going to react to anything that the oilers do. It's actually really good.

And is it bad? Well, who's to say? Pretty much sums it up. Sure, we have evidence of why it's bad. And, you know, it could have been easily foreseeable, but no. Nobody could have foreseen that any of the bad trades or signings or anything the Oilers have made in the last 25 years. It's all been one of those things where, you know, hindsight's 2020. And maybe Foresight's also 2020, but we can't, we can't get into that.

Exactly. Last year, also 2020. Sean, before you, O'Pheim, I just wanted to catch everybody up. The Oilers traded Caleb Jones, the brother of Seth. Jones, flashing sirens, uh, to the Chicago Blackhawks for Duncan Keith. They also traded a conditional third round pick in the trade to Chicago, the condition being that it converts to a second round pick if the Oilers win three rounds of the playoffs and Duncan Keith is one of their top four defensemen in total ice time. So it's a third round pick. So it's a third round pick.

And then there's another dude that went over in the trade of, minor league player to the oilers. But the big headline here for a lot of us was that Duncan Keith makes 5.5 in change against the cap. And he really kind of, the market for him was very narrow. He requested a trade to be closer to his son. His son and his family lives in Western Canada. And so you're down to like four teams, basically, that, you know, he'd be willing to

accept a trade to it because he has a full no move. And yet, despite all of this, Ken Holland took on the full freight of the contract and did not get any retention from the Chicago Blackhawks on this deal that apparently had to happen right now before the expansion draft. Sean, what was your reaction to Le Affair do Duncan Keith? Yeah. I mean, as I said last week,

I don't hate the idea that Duncan Keith will bring some intangibles. I don't hate the idea that Connor McDavid and Leandro Saitle will have a guy in the room who has won cups as a star, not as a depth piece or a supporting player, but as a key guy the way that they're going to be expected to. So, you know, I don't think the fit is awful, but if people listened to the show last week, they heard me make that case from a starting point where I said obviously Chicago would be retaining half the salary. And then that didn't happen. They didn't retain any at all. And I don't get that for the reasons you just outlined. I understand why Edmonted wanted the guy, but in a flat cap league, you've got to be pretty relentless on how you assign value. And there's whatever you think of Duncan Keith, whether you think he's, He's going to have a bit of a rebound, bounce back, have a chip on his shoulder.

Whatever you want to say, the odds of him playing like a $5.5 million player seemed pretty close to zero. And I get that Edmonton thinks they didn't give up very much. They obviously don't seem to think very much of Caleb Jones. And the draft pick, I don't know, even the draft pick stuff, because they gave up the third. They put the weird condition on it to make it a second, which we all agree is extremely unlikely to come into play. But that means that second round picks now tied up, too. It means Edmonton can't use it, for example, at the trade deadline. That is correct.

So as far as assets that they could use elsewhere, they've given up two picks in this trade, even though only one of them will actually leave. It's tough. I've got to tell you, the biggest piece that worries me here, I'm an Oilers fan is hearing Ken Holland say, well, you know what? Chris Chelyos was old when I got him. Yes. What is that? Oh, dude. For two reasons. First of all, Chris Chelius was old when Ken Holland got him in Detroit. Obviously, we're talking in the late 90s. But he was still very, very good. He had, you know, he had been in the Norris picture pretty consistently. So it wasn't the same situation. But, more importantly, the number one thing you were worried about when Ken Holland was hired was, okay, are we getting a really good hockey mind who has won 20 years ago and has kept up

with the times and is going to continue to be one of the smartest guys in the room and he can win in the cap era? Or have we got a guy who won 20 years ago and he still thinks it's 20 years ago and he's going to try to build a team the way he did when he was the Detroit Red Wings with with an unlimited budget. And the fact that he's invoking Chris Chelyos here makes me wonder if maybe it's that second category. And if it is, then the Oilers are kind of screwed because you cannot win today with

1990s thinking. So are you saying that the guy who once traded a third round pick for Vyashislav Fetisov at age like 85 might just be repeating himself here by doing the same thing over and over again with Chelyos and now with Delyos and now with Darnas. Duncan Keith. I mean, it's... Yeah, except Slava Fetisov might have been the best defenseman ever outside of Bobby Yor. Yeah.

And Duncan Keith's like, he's like one of the five or six best defensemen of his era. It's, I mean, this is... He's quite good. He's a Hall of Famer. I mean, I want to have smirch the good name of Duncan Keith. I'm not saying, like, I, you know, Lazarus, Mark Lazarus yesterday tweeted out, like, you know, maybe this is a hot take, but Duncan Keith was the best player of the Chicago Dynasty. and it's like, yeah, he definitely

fucking was. I don't want to disappear Christopher Steeg like that, but I understand what he's trying to say. I think he's fucking unbelievable, but, you know, there's a, I think there's a gap between what he at 37 brought to the table.

And I don't, was Slava Fetisov even as old as Duncan Keith is now when the Red Wings got him? I'm not sure. I'm not sure either. And it's, the thing about, oh, and it's just a total, I mean, this is one of the,

things that we've learned in, I mean, in the analytics era, but it's not even really an analytics thing, it's just how aging curves work and how they've been shifting over time. And it would be one thing if Duncan Keith was 38 and coming off some good years and we were saying, yeah, buddy's 38. And when he, when the decline comes, it's going to be a big one. And you can say, yeah, but also it hasn't happened yet. The decline has been here for three or four years with this guy. The odds that he's going to reverse that, I mean, I'm not going to say it would be unprecedented, because I'm sure there's some example out there someone can give,

but it's extremely unlikely that Duncan Keith is going to be any better this year than he was the last few years. In the last few years, he wasn't that good. By the way, Slava Fetisov was 36 when the Red Wings were going to be. There you go. There you go. So younger at that point than, uh, than, uh, Keith is now. I mean, that's what it said, you know, officially he was 36. Sure.

Listen, a couple things on this deal. Like, as a second pairing defenseman who maybe will play with Adam Larson, I think he could be fine. Like, he could just be fine. But he's, as Lambert said, not $5.5 million under a flat cap fine. And that's the negligence here. The negligence here is that you've added a piece that may or may not work out that despite Ken Holland's protestations is actually 38.

He's fucking 38 next week. So Ken Holland can throw 37 out in every single answer that he makes in his press conference. Muffucker's 38. Okay? Let's round up. It's 38 next week. If you don't have them retain any salary on this contract, then you can't add a player that could be added for the money that you save on this deal.

And when you're the Edmonton Oilers, and you look at that lineup, every dollar counts. You can't have fucking $5.5 million tied up in Duncan Keith. You just can't. And if you can, if you decide that's what you want to do, I'm sorry, you've got to sell it to your goddamn fan base better than, how do you justify the trade?

I look at the record book and see what he's accomplished. That is literally the, explanation Ken Holland made for making this trade. Not zone exits. Not efficiency on the power play. Not skating ability. Not how it meshes into the Dave Tippett system. Well, you know...

This guy won two Norris trophies once. That was the actual literal out of his fucking mouth justification for this trade. Yeah. So at that point, fucking go get Wayne Gretzky. See if he would still want to play. Right. Exactly. Try Sele needs a winger.

Let's go get Jerry Curry. You know, like the thing that's, so funny, the thing about the age is that, you know, like the Slava Vatisov, Chris Chelyos, like, these are edge cases, right? Like, these are people

who are some of the best to ever fucking do it, and who, you know, Chris Chelyos played in the NHL until he was 47, I think, is the number. And it's like, yeah, how many of those guys do you think fucking exist? Because the Edmonton media was all doing the same, oh, you wouldn't

have said to Zadain O'Chara at 38 that he was washed up, he's still playing. And it's like, well, first of all, maybe the Bruins should have done that. But also, second of all, you know, like, Zadano Chara is a freak, who in the, again, in the fucking five years before he was 38 wasn't terrible. Right. Like Duncan Keith has been, where, you know, like, Duncan Keith, you want to say he's, he's had some kind of an efficacy on the power play, not last year, but in the years before

he was like, you know, pretty definitively washed if you look at the underlying numbers, if you want to say he has that, well, it's like, okay, you just gave fucking Tyson Barry like $2 million to do that, and he worked out great doing that one thing that you expected him to be able to do. And we should say the other thing is, Ken Holland said yesterday, doesn't look like Oscar Clefbaum might be back next year either. Yeah. Which is fucking wild.

And so like, if you're saying, you know, Duncan Keith is your Oscar Clefbaum insurance policy, like, I guess I kind of get that. But again, you know, there are going to be a million fucking teams that are trying to get out from under some not great contracts this year. And Duncan Keith is the guy you're like, well, he's the one we have to target. And completely targeted. And I think the thing about Ken Holland's press conference that was most startling, in particular how he went after Daniel Nugent Bowman from The Athletic, where you may be listening to this podcast right now, because Nugent Bowman had the audacity to sort of question the logic of the trade. and the whole press conference from that point on had a real you know, you want me to do a thing

you don't want me to do a thing. What the fuck do you guys want from me? Kind of energy from Ken Holland. Yes. Like, here, I did something. Why aren't you praising it? Kind of energy from Ken Holland. And I was sort of taken it back by that.

I don't know. I just feel like maybe when you're a general manager and you make a deal like this, I think I wanted more of the David Poil sort of like foe is. enthusiastic, well, he fits really well into what we do and, you know, that kind of shit. Instead of like, fuck you, look at the record book. He's got a consmite.

Like, that's basically the energy emanating from Ken Holland yesterday. It was crazy. The thing, you know, obviously, like, one of the selling points here is leadership. And it's like, to Sean's point about, well, it's leadership from a star who's, who's played at the highest level and, you know, won everything you can conceivably win in this sport. blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, but for $5.5 million, like, you could go out and get two, maybe even three Pat Maroon types who have won at a slightly lower level, but they've won a lot. Like, look, Duncan Keith is obviously in a pretty short list of guys who have won three cups in their careers and are still active.

So, you know, I get that, but, you know, again, you could have written any of this shit. Uh, beforehand. Yeah. And, and, you know, when Duncan Keith has whatever, like, eight points, you know, six on the power play in October next season. And everybody's like, well, see, Duncan Keith, he could still do it. It's like, I mean, you can write that in advance too, you know? One last thing for me, and then we could wrap a bow around this. Um, the comparison to Mike Smith excelling at 39.

years old was pretty much my favorite thing of the entire press conference because Duncan Keith famously has probably skated longer and farther than maybe any player of his generation. Would you agree with that? Maybe outside of Ryan Suter, but then you have to take into account that Keith has gone much deeper in the playoffs than Ryan Suter. Like this guy's got some miles on him famously. Like he won a Khan Smyth for skating over 30 minutes a night.

Like that's the whole reason he won it. And so the idea that we're going to take. a position where I'm not trying to say that goalies don't have to be athletic and don't exert themselves and yada yada but a position that's kind of famous for having goalies played deep into their 30s versus a defenseman where again like the analytics tell you that Duncan Keith has been in a decline defensively in particular at five on five for a good portion of five seasons that was like you've got to be fucking kidding me like talk about apples and oranges Jesus.

Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at his career games played right now. He's played almost 1,200 career games averaging almost 25 minutes a night. Yes. That's only in the regular season. That's not kind of the playoffs. It's not kind of the Olympics. It's not kind of anything else. It's incredible he made that comparison.

All right, Sean, put a ball around this turd. I will just see how he does in Edmonton. I do think for all the criticism and the fact that, that he's not going to live up to the cap hit. I think it's possible that he's a perfectly adequate second-paring guy, maybe even better than that on at least some nights, and when those nights happen, we'll hear all about it. Yeah.

And, you know, the leadership, the whatever, we'll see. That's always tough to tell if it's having any impact from the outside. You know, at the end of the day, it's two years left on the deal. If he's awful this season, there's a good chance he retires, because next year's salary is in actual dollars is quite low. So, I mean, I don't think this is likely to be a disaster for Edmonton. I just, I don't think it's indicative of a great process, and maybe that's what concerns me more than the actual deal itself.

Yeah, I said it last week. of, you know, like, the fucking Chicago played him 24 minutes a game last year. If you just, if you dial him back to like 19, like, put him on a second, third pairing. It doesn't sound like that's what Edmonton wants to do, right? Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that, that's, if they had said, look, he's going to be our, he's going to basically be Tyson Barry this year. And yeah, we've ate a lot to get him and we're paying a lot in terms of the cap hit. But we're not counting on him to, to be.

what everybody thinks of as Duncan Keith is being. We're counting on him to, you know, help our good young defensemen learn what it takes to be a good, you know, all that shit. Just say all that. But they're like, and also he's, you know, he's going to start on the number one paired next year and we'll see how it goes. Like, what the fuck? You know? Yeah. Like, there's a smart way to talk about it.

And they were just like, we refuse to do that, actually. Yeah. So yesterday was really remarkable again. When I say yesterday, I mean Monday, for a number of reasons. And one of them is 100% the incredible bookends of the day. We have Ken Holland justifying the Duncan Keith trade with the eye test a dozen hours after the Ottawa senators announced that Pierre McGuire has been hired in their hockey front office. Now, I, Lambert, you referenced this,

this arrangement on early Monday morning. And I think that you said a very true thing, which is that as much as this is sort of a frustrating thing to see like Pierre McGuire leap over the queue and get a job ahead of other people that have maybe put in more of the work in the last two decades actually working for teams, if the, you know, requirement for the job is simply knowing people and like shaking hands and, you know, knowing who the third. person at Gatineau is you need to talk to. Like, he probably knows that.

Like, that's the baseline knowledge that you get. That's like his whole deal. Right. This whole deal. Yeah. And so, like, oh, because I, you know, that Gariotch article was the first thing everybody read about it. And it was just like, oh, you know, we're going to count on him to, to, you know,

know who coached him, know who he hangs out with. Like, we want to know all that stuff about every player we could conceivably draft. And I, honestly, think there are very few guys who have that kind of encyclopedia like just you know the ability to have memorized everybody's elite prospects page basically right like he knows who everybody's related

to he knows where they played minor or like Adam hockey or whatever you want to say and like if that's his only job then I think you know that's not like an insane hire but as the day one on it became pretty obvious that that will not be his only job. And even if it was his only job, like, that encyclopedic knowledge actually comes in very

handy when you're on live television and you don't have time to look this stuff up. You need somebody who just knows it. But you're making decisions in the front office. Like, Google is right there. You can go to their elite prospects page. You don't need somebody to, to spit that out for you. That information is all there. So what else does he bring to the table? It's pretty amazing how many really smart player personnel people aren't working right now and how many really smart player personnel people are looking for their first shot at doing a job.

And the problem with all of them is they're not on television, like you said, Sean. Like this is a classic, I've watched this guy on. my TV every week and he seems smart. Yeah. Well, this is in Ottawa. This is also about PR and managing the media. I think that's going to be a big part of the job because let's be honest. The Ottawa senators have not been very good at messaging.

What? I know. I know. And part of that is, look, they haven't had a lot of stuff to message. It's not like, you know, stuff like the Uber incident or all the other side shows, you know, it's not like there, that was a messaging failure. That was, those are just difficult situations. But, but saying you're going to move the team as a messaging failure. Yeah, you know, Melnick has been the spokesperson for two. He shows up every now and then,

usually says something that makes people mad. At this point, even if it's not something all that unusual, people still get mad because they've, they've kind of lost the trust in him. Doreen, a little bit better, but he's not great at it. And, you know, he's said a few things that maybe came out wrong. So to get a guy who's got 20 years of experience being on TV and is very popular with the media, and I can tell you, Pierre McGuire has been showing up on Ottawa radio for years and years and years and being, let's just say, very positive about the team pretty much constantly. because he's a smart guy and he knows how to play the game.

And he's, you know, he'll have credibility in this marketplace, at least to start with. So even that on its own will help. But the thing that fascinates me here is the job title. Like two years ago, the senators made a big public showing of announcing that they were going to hire a new president. And it was going to be some big name president of hockey ops who was going to help here. Dorian and and there and then nothing happened for two years. And there was a couple of names got bandied around, but it didn't sound like anything ever got close.

And now he comes in, but he's not the president. And Dorian doesn't report to him. He reports to Pierre Dorian, at least according to what peer Dorian said, but he's also not the assistant GM, even though that's what the job sounds like. He's the, what is it, president of player development, something like that. And yet his description of the job, his description of the job doesn't sound like that. So it sounds like there's already been kind of an internal struggle over what's the title going to be, who reports to who, how does this look, what's the perception going to be? and that's I mean it's interesting to me

and I guess we'll see how it plays out it could play out great it could also fall apart very quickly and I thought you know I thought it I thought it was very I think it was Ian Mendez who asked Pierre Dorian in the press conference like are you concerned that they just hired your replacement because Pierre Dorian's got one year left on his contract and Pierre Dorian unlike Ken Holland answered the question pretty well he didn't he didn't get his backup he just gave a

a decent answer and everybody moved on. But, you know, Pierre McGuire has very publicly spent 20 years trying to get a GM's job. So is he happy to come in and basically be an assistant with a slightly better title or is this a stepping stone to something else somewhere, either Ottawa or elsewhere? I don't know. It's going to be interesting to watch. And I guess, hey, if you're the senators, there's something to be said for being interesting, I guess. Peter Dorians asked about whether he just hired his replacement. He's like, absolutely not. I have the full confidence in camera cuts to Pierre McGuire sharpening his knives in the corner.

Don't look at me. Typing up his resume. Yeah, no, it's, here's what I guess is the problem. Is the thing you said earlier about like everybody's kind of sick of the owner and doesn't want to hear from him. boy, this seems like the owner made that higher. Oh, absolutely. And, you know, Pierre Dorian maybe got the memo 20 minutes before the press conference. Yeah.

It's... And it's Ottawa, right? So managing up to Eugene Melnick is pretty much the number one skill that you need to have in a front office. And it can be done. Brian Murray was phenomenally good at it. Pierre Dorian, by all accounts, has been pretty good at it. Pierre McGuire, Pierre Maguire famously, when he last worked in the NHL,

part of his downfall was his temper. So that was a long time ago, but it would be very interesting to see a guy with a temper and a short fuse handling Eugene Melnick, who by all accounts is very similar. That could be explosive. or it could be two guys who really get each other.

And they just cut the crap and say what needs to be said. Again, I'm not saying it can't work. I'm saying I'm very interested to see if it does. Do you think that Eugene Melnick hired Pierre McGuire because he just didn't want to have to remember a new name when he fires Pierre Dorian? And he could just kind of just keep on calling him. He's got a tattoo that says Pierre equals GM

over his heart. Yeah, I don't think that Eugene Melnick is a very good owner. It's kind of a blanket statement. Speaking of blankets, this episode of Proxum is sponsored by Brooke Lennon. Thank you. Look, it, Brooke Lennon is one of our favorite sponsors here on Puck Soup because it is going to make your life better. And by that, I mean, you're going to go to bed in a beautifully comfy bed and drift off into slumberland. You're going to wake up in a beautiful comfy bed, and you're going to say to yourself,

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in five games. A bit anticlimactic after game four gave a little bit of hope to the HABs and their fans. Gentlemen sweep, they call it, right? I was just going to ask, do you think this is, like, losing the last home game on the road, or the last road game and the home team wins, and then you beat their brains in game five? Like, do you think that's the most gentlemanly of the gentlemen sweeps? Yes. I believe it is.

But again, it's not so much that they were trying to do the gentleman's sweep. It's that they were following the advice of their mayor, clearly through Game 4 in order to then win the Cup at home in Game 5. I think the evidence is there that they all conspired together in the locker room and said, hey, maybe we don't score on this four-minute power play that we have an over-stretch, stretch off into overtime. Let's just let them have this moment. everybody will be really happy. We'll come back to Tampa, we'll win it. We know we can. We're clearly the better team. And so the Lightning win the Cup. Of course, like, as for usual, you know, the Lightning winning the Cup is a big story. Back to Back Cup's, great legacy, yada, yada, yada. What happens afterwards is really what we need to talk about. Sean, your thoughts on the Nikita Kuturov press conference for the ages after Game 5. Yeah, I mean, I think I saw that the same way that most, of at least the media seem to see it, which is it was interesting, it was personality. We can't complain that these guys never say anything other than pucks in deep and give 110% and then be mad when they do.

I know a lot of Montreal fans were ticked off, a lot of that he seemed to take a run at them. I disagree with what he said about Montreal fans. In fact, I hate this idea that, oh, you know, you were celebrating you won one game in the final. Like, yeah, you should celebrate. You're in the Stanley Cup final. It's the first time in your deepest run in 28 years. Yeah, go ahead and be happy.

I don't like this kind of idea that you're not supposed to celebrate on anything like that. But it was an interesting thing to say. You know, it was fun. He's sitting there with the no shirt on. The only thing I will say on this is it's this habit we all have where hockey players in general are so boring and so bereft of any personality

that whenever anybody does something a little different than that, we all have to pretend it is the funniest thing we have ever seen in our lives. You got to put it on a fucking t-shirt. Like, oh, he said a swear word. Yeah. Like, people are tweeting like, oh, I'm

tears in my eyes. I'm rolling on the ground. This is so funny. It's like, it's George Carlin, Richard Pryor, and Daniel Alpherson pretending to throw the broken stick and Nikita Kutcher of in the press conference are the funniest things that have ever happened i think it's perfectly okay to be like yeah it was it was amusing it was fun uh it it wasn't the single greatest moment in sports history but it was it was fine i also think that what happens is that when this sort of thing occurs in hockey we treat it like that little

glowing rabbit in breath of the wild that you see in the forest uh where if you get too close it scurries away. So you have to really be safe. And I feel like there's a circling the wagons protectionism that occurs. Anytime these guys speak out, that's like, don't you dare say that this is bad for the game? How dare you, sir? And like literally nobody's saying it. They're all like, look at the drunk rush and he's really funny. Yeah. I feel like that's the other thing that happens every single time this happens. There were a lot of much trouble things we're not saying. I'm sure who cares about them. That's because he talks smack about them, which is completely understandable. They can say that, right?

I mean, it's a very sort of direct insult that he made towards the fan base. Yeah, he insults them. They're allowed to insult him back. Of course. Of course. But in the aggregate, like, I've seen this happen so often where it's like somebody says something and then

it elicits a reaction. And then, you know, there's like hockey fans feel like they're deputized to be like, don't you don't you fucking dare say anything I'm bad about this. This is why they don't talk. This is why they don't talk. This is why they don't talk. when you say things bad about this. Usually, it's like, uh, when, when a player goes like, yeah,

I'm not sure about all these COVID vaccines. I mean, who knows what in them. And then, and then you go, uh, maybe you shouldn't fucking say that. Oh, I guess you don't want hockey players to be interesting. To be interesting. But this one in particular, it's just, I feel like the cue rating on this one was pretty high. I feel like this was one where most people in and out of hockey were, were genuinely, genuinely amused, and I don't think anybody was like, you've besmirched the good name of post-series press conferences, sir. I do think, like I said, though, this almost redeems the Zoom era. I don't think this probably happens in a normal press conference.

I think Kutrov being in front of a camera by himself in a room is why this thing happens. So God bless Zoom gave us this presser for the ages. It was all worth it. It was all worth it. pandemic, everything. Yeah. I think this was, to me, this was, this was somebody gave Alex Ovetchkin the red kryptonite and turned him bad.

That's what this whole press conference felt like. And I loved every second of it. But I agree with you, Sean. It was like a B plus. It was a solid routine. It was, it was a comedy special that dropped at the right time on Netflix. It was fine. People needed it.

I mean, you know, what he should have done is he should have been wearing the championship hat and then halfway through the. press conference picked it up and said, you know what, caps don't apply to me and flung it off into the distance. That that would have been... Or if he had walked out in the $18 million over the cap or over the fuck that that T-shirt was that they were wearing during the parade, or the day before the parade, maybe.

That would have been pretty great, too. I like it. You're the best team in the league. Go full heel turn. Yeah. It's good. Exactly. It's a new world order, brother.

I will say, though, that is his point about, like, There was that video somebody did of like, oh, what he wants Montreal fans to have done. And it's like, oh, good game. Do you guys want to go to Subway after or whatever? And it's like, boy, wouldn't the sports world just be like a thousand times better if that's how everybody reacted to every win and loss? Just like, yeah, okay, great. This doesn't really affect me that much. Cool.

I'm kind of hungry. Like, it would be much better, I think. I really also did enjoy when he mocked the reporter's microphone. That was pretty good, too. He had a good time. The boat parade happened on Monday. A grand tradition for the lightning now. And they broke the Stanley Cup.

Sean, you're a purveyor of NHL history. This is not the first time the cup has been damaged. What were your thoughts when you saw? Pat Maroon holding a broken Stanley. Yeah. I love that it was Pat Maroon holding it. Like, that's... That's like when the teacher leaves the room and you break something and like you get the one good kid in the class to take the blame for everyone else.

This is the opposite. There's a very long history of the cup being damaged or kicked around or dropped into swimming pools or left in strip clubs. It's part of the history. They'll fix it up. It's fine. I do want to know what happened, though, because that thing was not dented. That thing was like caved in. There would have had to have been some force on that.

I want to know, like, that wasn't somebody dropping it from like two feet. That thing got I eated. And if you go through the Getty images, as I did, as I tried to verify what the fuck happened here, the cup's fine for most of the boat parade. I mean, I think this is definitely something where they return back to land and then something happened to it. But the other thing that was amazing about the cup getting damaged was, I mean, everybody saw the cup, the picture of him holding the cup. That came from a Facebook video that a Boltz fan captured and then put on Twitter. And that Boltz fan, I want to make sure I get credit. Boltzjolts captured the image and put it on Twitter.

But there are other images that I saw of the keepers of the cup. ushering the Stanley Cup around with a blanket over the, over the bowl. Like, like you're, like, like, a celebrity trying to avoid the paparazzi. Yeah, like it's Michael Jackson in 1996. So, uh, there's one of them with a blanket over the top of the cup, ushering it away. There's another one with the cup in the back of a car with the blanket on top of it as they're about to drive it, I guess, back to the airport to take it to Montreal to get hand hammered. So it's a hell of the scene. And who amongst us hasn't been taken to Montreal to get hammered?

Well done. Really, the only place. My favorite recent breaking of the cup story was the one where the Red Wings won and the cups at Cellios' Chili Bar in Detroit. And people are dancing and someone just accidentally knocks it off a table. Which is, I mean, the cup's pretty substantial. Like, you've got to use a little force knocking shit off the table. But then it got, remember it got damaged.

and I think the like NHL awards were coming up so I had to appear there and I think it appeared at the NHL awards still janked up because they couldn't fix it the right way or some such. That's fun. Do we think Andre Vasilewski sat on it with his freaking big pads? That's what happened? See how big these pads are? I mean, come on. No wonder they destroyed the Montreal Canadiens in five games. Just fucking absolutely beat the shit out of it.

of them. Yeah. That Photoshop turned Eddie Lack into a into a like a debunker. He was like Snopes. Did you see that?

He like tweeted out. He looks like this because he doesn't tuck his jersey into because he doesn't tuck his jersey into his chest protector like Carrie Price does. Yep. I'm like, thank God for Eddie Lack. Tacos and Truth. The Eddie Lack story.

He's very cool. Anything else about the lightning as far as their back-to-backs? Do you think they got one more in them? Or do you think this is it? You know, I mean, if Headman comes back healthy next year and they don't, I mean, like, they could lose like five players this summer and that would be a tough sell. But if they only lose like two or three, well? Now, when is, when is Headman coming back healthy is the question?

I'm going to say April. Because then they might not lose anybody. Yeah. I guess what's different about this one is, like you said, like the. core is still there. I don't know if there's any replacing the checking line, which has been one of the reasons they've won back-to-back cups. You know, clearly, Goodrow and Coleman are going to get their money and Gord could even end up in Seattle. I don't know how you replicate that line. That's going to be a huge loss. The answer is they just have like 50 guys who are 23 years old

who played for Syracuse last year who were like, oh yeah, I can come in and be a second line guy, no problem. That's fine. They do it every five. fucking year. Why would next year be any different? The Ross Colton Cardiff for Hagee types. Yeah, Alex Barry Bray, or Bley, is, I think, the next one. And he's, like,

a point of game player in Syracuse the last two seasons, I'm pretty sure. They have a couple of guys who fit that bill and, like, are NHL ready and could I see them replacing Barclay-Gudrow? Yeah, that seems fine. Whatever.

And this is, like, they're going to lose Goodroll. They're going to lose Coleman. They're, and because those guys were on deals, it were like a million dollar deals, and now they're going to be worth much, much more. And presumably we'll get much, much more somewhere else. But this is the sort of thing. They're going to lose those guys.

People are going to go, ooh, the depth in Tampa is going to be an issue now. And then, like, three weeks in free agency, suddenly guys who are like that will be, who haven't signed yet are going to be willing to go to Tampa for a million bucks. And frankly, I don't even think they need to wait two, three weeks.

Like Chicago used to do this all the time too, where it's like, oh yeah, we'll just get like the third best center on the market for like below market value. This is what happens when you win, when you're a great organization. You know, people will say, I'm going to make a million bucks a year.

I'm damn sure want to do it in Tampa and not in Winnipeg or wherever. Yeah, they're going to be good. Again, you know, are they going to win the cup again? Probably not, because every team starts as probably not. But they got a real shot at it. If everyone's healthy, they're, man, they're just, they're such a well-built team. And I know that there are some fans who are like, oh, God, don't let Tampa win again.

I'm so sick of seeing the same teams. I want new teams and upsets and all that. Totally get it. But also it's fun to see great teams rewarded. You know, like we're going in the offseason. Everyone's going to be sitting there, oh, you know, what trade should my team make? Who should they sign?

This is why it matters, right? Because you want your team to be the next Tampa. You don't want your team to be the next Montreal. Right. It would be cool if they were. It's a great ride. But that's not what you want your team to aim for. And it's nice to see that payoff.

And you know what? They probably won't win next. year, they'll probably make the playoffs, which means they're going to get beat at some point, and them getting beat will feel like a really big deal. It's going to be super cool. You know, game seven, champs are on the ropes, and some team takes them out. That's going to be awesome. So this is, to me at least, this is the sort of stuff that makes the league fun.

Absolutely. I guess finally, any grapes with the Vasleski win in the Kahn-Smith? No, I guess not. You know, like, I think Kucharov had a pretty good claim to it, like all that stuff about, oh, no, he's done this level of playoff scoring since, uh, since Mario and Gretzky. And it's like, well, if you're in that company, I guess you're pretty fucking good. Um, but with that having been said, like, I think we talked about it last week. Uh, the idea that he was ever going to win after all the cap shenanigans. Uh, I never really bought that. I talked to a voter for the cons smite who said that, that, that he said that, that he,

he didn't even conceive of that being an issue, which I thought was interesting. So maybe we were wrong on that. Maybe that was too conspiratorial. I think Vasleski went just because I saw a lot of lightning in the last couple of rounds. And there were definitely games when he was the best player on the ice more often than not. And I think he deserved it. Happy he won. One last thing, because Sean mentioned it.

And, you know, rare is the moment on the show when I'm like, hey, can someone old help us out? because, you know, I'm old. But I wasn't old enough to know what was happening on the ground in the 1980s. And your point about the lightning winning potentially three cups in a row, for someone who was there and remembers it, was there like a real outcry from hockey fans being like, ah, the fucking Islanders again? Or, oh, these Oilers wins.

Oh, you're ruining the sport. I've always wondered about that. Like, what was the reaction from a fan? during the dynastic years. Like, was it cool? Or was it shitty? I don't, I mean, I was, I'm a little too young to really remember. But you got to remember the kind of the context of it.

The habs had won five in a row in the 70s. Right. I think hadn't, Ryan, had the Celtics. Flyers won a ridiculous number. Yeah, if the Celtics won a bunch in a row. Yeah, like it was. So, also, I don't forget the Steelers, too, I think, right, too. I think we're also like,

you know, dynastic, yeah. So it was sort of the era of, of those kind of dynasties. So I don't, it wouldn't have seemed that unusual. Certainly, yeah,

I mean, there were years where, you know, it felt like what the NBA sometimes feels like these days where it's like, yeah, sure,

let's have a season. It's going to be fun, but we know it's going to be Islanders and Oilers in the final. Right. But I don't remember there being some backlash because we hadn't, as fans been conditioned to expect this era of parody, certainly in the

NHL, but even like even in the NFL where it was sort of the first league where that became more of a thing. It hadn't really happened yet. So you're saying like in 19, like the early 90s when the Penguins only won two in a row, we're all like, what the fuck? Two? That's pathetic. Right.

That's a good point. I mean, that it, we were more conditioned to accept these runs from teams and different. in sports than we are now. And I'm sure, like, when it came to the Oilers, it's like, ah, they got fucking Wang Gretzky, of course, they're going to win a bunch of cups in a row. Like, let's keep going. Every team sport, and even, like, you know,

boxing was big back then. In boxing, you know, the same guy's heavyweight champion for five years, you know, back then, you know, pro wrestling used to be the same good dude would hold the belt for five years in a row. Like, we were just used to the fact that if you were great, that meant you were going to be great year after year after year. So it was just kind of expected. Yeah, we're going to need to put the flyers over you, Wayne.

Yeah, that's not going to happen for me, brother. Yeah, exactly. Finally, as far as Cup stuff, wanted to touch on Montreal. I mean, obviously, things did not work out for them in the final. They got a great moment of glory with that win in game four. Happy that the Habs fans had a chance to celebrate and feel good about life. But again, like the thing about the lightning that we've talked about many times, is this incredible efficiency they have to win a game 8-0 or 1-0,

and they won the 1-0 game twice in a row to close out a series. But Mark Bergevan kind of playing a little coy with his future as general manager with the Canadians, Sean. Yeah, it was, this was kind of interesting because, I don't know, but you guys, there had been a story during the playoffs as Montreal was starting to make their run that Mark Bergervan, who had only one year left on his contract, had an extension that was done and was just sitting there. And I actually thought it was done, done.

So I was kind of caught off guard by this. I was like, didn't he sign an extension already? But apparently he hasn't. And apparently, when he was asked about it, he basically said, you know, I'm going to be the GM this year and then we'll see. And that surprised a lot of people because the assumption was that he was, obviously with the team going on the run, it had gone on, ownership was going to reward him with an extension.

He had just been almost named GM of the year, all of this stuff. And now suddenly it sounds like he, that may not happen. And it's not because, from the sounds of it, like they're far apart on term or money or anything like that, it legitimately sounds like he just might not want to do the job or at least might not right now want to commit to doing the job. And he was pretty surprisingly open, I thought. Maybe I'm reading more into his comments than I should. But, you know, he basically said the last year, year and a half has been really difficult, mentally, emotionally.

And I'm not sure that I want to re-up for years and years more of this. I might need to kind of see how it goes in the next year. And it doesn't sound like a guy trying to use leverage to get a bit. better deal. It doesn't sound like a guy who wants to go somewhere else. And it, to me, really did sound like a guy who's just kind of worn out and saying, you know what, I need to think about how much of this I want to take on and whether I maybe want to back away and take a different role. He could be team president. He could be whatever. You know, if that's what he's saying, in an NHL where everybody's always supposed to just suck

it up, everyone's supposed to just, you know, put the good of the team and all that stuff, I actually kind of found it a bit refreshing to hear somebody maybe not come out and quite directly say I got to prioritize my mental health and that side of things but but to to sort of suggest that I kind of I was taken aback a little bit but I I kind of admire it

my my reaction was more along the lines of like you know he was in line to get fired you know like a few months ago yeah as recently as March it feels like right

and so like for him to be like yeah I don't want to be like no shit I wouldn't want to be the GM either because people are constantly like well they gotta fire that guy soon right because he's been there forever yeah that's part of it

and so you know like why not do the oilers thing where it's like yeah you parlay some amount of success into just like a front office job, you'll never get fired from. You know, he got him to a, got him to a cup final. They got to a cup final.

You know, however you want to say they did that, they did get to a cup final. And so to like parlay that into like a, you know, a job where there's a lot more security and you're not like on the front lines of people being like, Jesus Christ, this team is not good. You know, like, what he should do really is, like, try to move upstairs this season before everybody realizes that, oh, man, they did not make the playoffs this next season, you know? But, like, yeah, I was really surprised that he was just like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to do this anymore.

Like, I totally get it, but, you know, that's not usually the way hockey men think or whatever. it's not I you know there was a part of me that really felt that maybe he was just trying to keep his options open you know and not recommit to a job that very much ends with him getting fired let's be honest like it's just going to happen it almost happened a few times it's remarkable it hasn't happened yet be quite honest um does he kind of side eye chicago a little bit in making this decision that was one of the things that was in the back my mind during this was like we don't quite know how that's going to play out I can't see if Chicago You don't want to be the first one through that door Well not only that but if Chicago

Makes him you know And the implication being that they would move on from Stan Bowman as a result of this scandal And whatever comes to light You can't go and bring back somebody who was in the organization There yeah But he already says he's got sort of plausible deniability And maybe he does

but you don't, you know, again, this is sort of the poison fruit or whatever. You can't bring somebody back who was there. He's going to immediately be just answering questions about that versus bringing in brand new people and saying, we're doing, we're starting fresh. I can't see them bringing back somebody who was there in 2010. No, I was just curious by the time. Joel Quinville, he's back, folks, and everybody's like. But I do think ultimately it's probably what you said, Lambert, which is, you know, try to angle

for the job you can't get fired from and hope that you've built up enough cashier to have earned that opportunity. But it was a surprise because, Sean, like, I think it was Eric Engels who reported he had like a contract offer in his back pocket, but hadn't like accepted it.

And I think we all kind of... Yeah, yeah, we all assumed it was done, right? Like, you know, he's been given an extension at the time we're all thinking, okay, this guy is like one step away from getting canned. Like, why wouldn't he sign it? Like, sign it today. Yeah. But apparently he never,

did. Apparently he's kind of up in the air and, hey, listen, he's a cool dude that dresses well. Speaking of cool dudes that dress well, this episode of Puck's Super Sponsored by Mac Weldon. That's a stretch, man. Well, and he dresses very well. You see that red suit? Oh, you mean the transition. Yeah. Is a bit of a, okay. Well, you're probably right. Mac Weldon is much more than just underwear. Their full collection includes t-shirts, polos, button-ups and shorts, a pair of which I am wearing right now. Pants and swim suits and all sorts of things. Dive into McWeldon's swim line with trunk and board short options that are quick to dry

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It's exciting, right? Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, apparently they're going to pass some sort of rule to make it so that you can't cross-check, I guess, is my understanding. The GMs all had a big old phone meeting, and the competition committee between the NHL and the NHLPA apparently is going to meet next week. And they're going to re-examine cross-checking and how to better enforce it. No doubt, music of the years of Ken Campbell, who has called this a fucking pandemic or endemic or some such.

Epidemic probably be Probably sure I don't know One of those words that ends with Maybe he called it a bird demic I don't remember exactly One of those Remember that

Remember everybody thought it was so exciting Yep Bird Demic was after Shark Nato Yeah I believe it was It was a post-Sharknato world But they're gonna try to crack down in it And I don't really know what that means Like all over the ice

Just in front of the goal it smells very much of the you know the first two months of the season really tough for guys throwing cross checks but after that everything will calm down it seems like that's going to be one of those things right and then they'll say well everybody learned the standard

and it's actually like no we just stopped calling it that's not really the same thing although that didn't really happen with slashing did it like the where they crack down on slashes to the gloves do we do we see a lot of those these days or did it actually kind of let's ask Connor McDavid from this year's playoffs Connor what do you got he goes oh no it didn't happen once

I know I got to slash my gloves a few times that's a different guy though no it's the same guy I think it still happens but maybe you're right I think on the slashing of the gloves thing it did make an impact I think that we see less of it like just the idea they're still slashing and all that obviously but the idea that you just got a free shot as someone skated by it. I just go baseball bat right on their wrists.

Does seem to be gone from the game. I think this is one of those deals, though, that I struggle with because I feel like cross-checking is such a fundamental part of defense in this sport. Like, imagine watching a penalty kill where there isn't somebody cross-checking a dude in the back in front of the net. Like, I can't see it. Imagine it. And then that guy scored.

Oh, that would be terrible. No, I'm saying, yes, in a utopian society, it'd be great if nobody got cross-checked front of the net. I just can't conceive of this sport looking like that. Can you? Yeah. I mean, I can conceive the sport where you're not even allowed to body check someone. It's fucking rocks to think about that. But when you don't, hold on, when you're not body checking, are you doing the Brian Burke hugging in the corner thing or you're just not throwing the body at all? Everybody freaking skating, baby. Let's go. But yeah, like, it's, it's tough because, you know, I've used this example before, but there was a, there was a, there was a, there was a, there

was a time in college hockey when they would do this exact shit every year where they would go this summer we're cracking down on hooks in the hand as a guy's ahead of you or whatever and uh there would be seven billion penalties called uh in every single game in october in the first half of november then it's thanksgiving and everybody comes back and they're like out we're not going to call that anymore you know and and i i really i think there are just as many hook in the hands as there used to be in college hockey or slashes in the hands in the NHL, except to say that, like, I don't know, like, I just saw somebody the other day talking about, oh man, I just watched a game from like 1994 and like, how the fuck did it ever get to the point

where this much interference in hooking and holding was allowed, you know? And I don't know, I guess my point is that I think that, like, saying, oh, we're going to do something about this rule, like, that's good. Like, there should be that impulse to constantly be like, oh, yeah, this is really fucked up. But, like, do you think this gets called if Kuturov doesn't get cross-checked in the back and miss most of game six of the Eastern Conference final? Ooh, good question. I feel like the momentum towards this was building even during the season, where there were just some very obvious cases

where guys were just getting wailed on in front of the net. But yeah, that probably was the moment that crystallized it. And I'm interested to see what they do because that was a different area of the ice. And do they limit it just to in front of the net? Do they limit it to just in the corner? Do they say both? Do they try to make a crackdown everywhere? I don't know.

There's a few different ways that could go with it. But I mean, I honestly think you can sell this. Certainly in front of the net, you can sell this without it feeling like you're watering down the physical side. In fact, you can do it the other way. You can say, look, we want battles in front of the net. You can push, you can shove, you can try to establish position, you can try to outmustle a guy and get him out of the way. That's all hockey. What you can't do is stand three feet behind them and just hit them with your stick.

You have to use your body. You have to use your strength to get a guy out of there. You can't just use your stick. and I think if they do it that way, then even the fans who maybe appreciate the physical side more will go, yeah, you know what, that is how you should move a guy from in front of the net,

not just by cracking them in the spine with a cross check. And then obviously you just have to call it and stick to it. Yeah, call it and stick to it. It's going to be the tricky part. But hey, they're talking about it. I suppose we should probably be pretty happy about that. Yeah, I mean, the other thing is, you know, it really pisses me off that they're like, look,

we've identified this one problem, it only this one problem with how we call the rules. And so we'll figure that. And then next summer they're going to be like, damn, there was another problem. That's crazy. Okay, we'll fix that one.

And then, you know, whatever the like, you know, obvious offside play or slash in the hands or whatever they decide is like the big scandal of the play. They're like, okay, we're going to fix that and that one thing only, period. Period. That's the only problem there is. All right, a couple more things.

Pecoranay retires. That was the news that dropped this morning. Obviously, a storied career with the National Predators. 15 years. He spent in Nashville 38 years old and calls it a career. Where is he fit in the Pantheon of? of goalies of his era. Top five, maybe?

He was really good, man. He was really good. I feel like he's going to be remembered in the Cap era. It's going to be obviously Lunguiz, Luongo, who played most of his career in that era. I think at this point,

Mark Andre Fleury has moved up close to that tier. And then Rinne is kind of in that next group down with like the Ryan Millers. and those sorts of guys of guys who probably aren't going to the Hall of Fame, but you went to watch your team play hockey, and you looked in that, and Pecorina was standing there, you felt pretty good about your chances for a lot of years. He had a real, real good career.

He did. But I don't. And he's going to be a Hall of Fame discussion, but I don't think he gets there. I think he gets there if the Hall of Fame is normal about goalies. Maybe. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And they might be... And they might be... He won one. He was a finalist four times, though. Oh, right. He was not a one-hit wonder by any stretch. He was in the mix. All right, ready?

Yeah, a couple of years is the number two. One year is the number three. And, yeah, the late career win that he totally fucking deserved. Not 17-18. Not as good as Lundquist. No. Um... obviously like not as good as Brador,

um, before Brador, you know, lost the thread. Not as good as Thomas. Better than Bobrovsky? Yeah, that's another guy in that zone.

Tuka Rask is kind of in that area. I think Carrie Price is a better goalie than Peca Rene, personally. Yeah. Carrie Price is a weird one, but. You're not allowed to say that about Gary Price. He's the best. Is, uh,

Peca Rene going to end up with a better career than Conor Helibuck? No. Oh. I mean, it's impossible to say, but Hallibuck's been better his first few years than... Well, actually, no, I'm looking at René, by the end of his fourth season, he'd been a finalist twice. Hadn't won yet, but he was real good. Twice, too, right?

Yeah. Yeah. With the win, yeah. Who, I mean, you mentioned it before, but let's put a cherry on top. Who had a better career? Flurry or Rene? I think you would say because he actively won a Stanley Cup, you would say Flurry. I got to give it to, I might, I don't know, that's a tough one.

That's a real tough one. Because Paca René was a really, really good goalie throughout his career. There's only a couple seasons where things went wonky. I still can't forgive those wandering in the wilderness years for Flurry. Yeah, there were a lot of years for his bad. I think you've got a debate. prior to this year, because you could say, you know, Fleury's got the cup slash cups, depending on how much credit you want to give, but he didn't have the Vesna, yeah.

But he does now. And the other, I mean, and I know, yeah, wins is not everything or, but I mean, Flurie's like 130 wins ahead of them. Yep, that's. Boy, but you drop Pecoranay on the classic era, uh, Pittsburgh Penguins. I don't know, man. I, I feel like they got an extra two or three. cups in them. Probably right. Better career numbers into as far as save percentage and that sort of thing. It's not

I put Flurry. Flurry certainly as a Hall of Fame candidate is miles ahead. He's going to get in. Yeah, I agree. I don't think will. But it's yeah, it's it's it's not a crazy debate to have. All right. So I'm not I'm not entirely sure when the next show is going to be. I think in theory we'd probably won it after the expansion draft. Any thoughts on Seattle and the expansion draft?

And like, are we going to look back on this and be like, hey, they, they vaguest it, they did so good? Or are we going to be like, they overthought it? Well, when Vegas drafted. Right. We didn't think Vegas. We thought they were terrible. Right. Nobody thought that.

I looked back at it. Their entire defense corps actually came from the expansion draft for, opening night. Shea Theodore wasn't on the team yet, I don't think, or didn't play that night. Because they drafted like 15 defensemen. Like they half the teams in the league they took a defenseman from with the idea that they would flip a lot of them. And then I think the market maybe wasn't as there for them as they thought it would be. Our friends at the athletic have an extensive final list of who we think they, the Cracken are going to select. A couple names.

stand out for me on the list if we want to just talk about them real quick. One of them is Ryan Mark Giordano. Do you believe that he is Gonzo? Do you think that he is going to be a cracking? I mean, this is the classic thing of do they, what's he have one year left? Maybe two? I think it's only one. Yeah. And so it's like, do they want like a 36 year old defenseman for one year who, you know, he's still especially for a 36-year-old defenseman is quite good.

But he's probably an above-average defender still. And do they, the question is, and this is like kind of the philosophical thing we've been saying all along with Seattle is do they want to take on big money? Even if it's just for a year. I don't know what the answer is. And also I don't know like who else

the flames would really expose that you'd be interested in taking. But, yeah, I, you know, I guess they could certainly do worse picking from the Flames roster than Mark Gerdano, but he makes a good amount of money, and I don't know that Seattle is going to want to pay it. And he does make a good amount of money. It's not, his deal is not one of these where. Duncan Keith deal, yeah. But the flip side is, you know, how much money is Seattle going to want to spend? Well, they have to get to the floor.

61 and a half, I believe. So you're going to have to have a couple of deals. And if you're going to have a deal to get you to help you get to the floor, at least, a one-year deal that that might be more attractive than taking like an Adam Henrique sort of guy who's got three years left. I can see them taking Giorado thinking, look, either we are good right out of the gate and it's good experience and the market's good. in which case, good chance he's going to want to stay. Good chance we can lock him in for a little bit more. Or maybe we're not good. In which case, I mean, wouldn't teams be lining up at the deadline to get a guy

with a relatively recent Norris, you know, veteran, well-respected guy? I mean, yeah, you could do a lot worse as far as it. It would almost be like using your expansion pick to draft a first-round pick that you're going to get at the deadline. assuming he plays well and he's healthy and all that stuff, which isn't a given, but given, you know, I don't know. I think it makes sense, but we have no idea which direction they're going to go in. Michael Russo says that the Wilde will lose Carson Sousie, the defenseman. Instead of losing Matt Dumba, he says that there's a chance they could lose Victor Rask.

But it sounds like, again, nobody is more plugged in than Rousseau. It sounds like there'll be something that happens where there's a lot of people. They're not going to lose Matt Dumbin the expansion draft. Yeah, they're going to have to bribe Seattle not to do it. Let's see here. There was a couple of others. James Van Reims like it seems like he should already be like shopping for a condo in Seattle at this point because he's been linked to this team forever. But if Shane Gossis Bear is available, wouldn't you rather take Shane Gossis Bear than JVR?

Yeah, everybody in the league had a shot at him last year. Nobody wanted him. Seattle obviously wasn't part of that, but... Yeah, and, you know, I do keep circling back to the thing that people have pointed out about... Ron Francis likes to build a team from the D-Corps out. And so the idea that you would take James Van Riemstike, if you can maybe turn Shane Goss to spare into something. And again, I think he maybe has maybe only one year left or two, perhaps.

So if it doesn't work out, well, you tried something and you weren't expecting much, maybe that sort of thing. I don't know. I can see that being a possibility. Rob Rossi thinks the Penguins lose Jason Zucker. And Josh Yeo believes that they'll lose Zach Aston Reese. a little conflict between our Pittsburgh writers on the athletic. I'd rather have Zach Aston Reese. Me too. Yeah.

The Vince Dunn thing probably is going to happen, finally. Free Vince Dunn. Yonnie Gord is what Joe Smith thinks the Lightning could lose, although Ross Colton, Matthew Joseph at Calfoot might also be available. Yeah, I'd rather have. Yonnie Gord was like the second best player on the Lightning by war last year, if I'm not mistaken. So, now, granted, that's with Kutraub missing the whole season.

But, like, Gore's really fucking good. He's not insanely expensive. And he might be a classic guy where it's like, oh, yeah, their third line. He's their center for the third line. It's like, yeah, maybe he should be the center for somebody's second line. And finally, the interesting one, the capitals, according to Tarek, Elbashir, might lose Vitek Vanek. young goalie who obviously saw a ton of time this year with Lundquist out and Sampsonoff being on the COVID list a couple of times, which was be an interesting choice for them. I mean, I think they'll end up taking Jake Allen from the Canadians, although Arp. Basso thinks it'll be Jonathan Drew Ann.

But Vanichek's an interesting choice for building out your goal-thending spot. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about it. Vita Vanejek. Like, he's not that young. He's like 24, 25. And he was a rookie this year, right? Or, you know, I don't know if he counted as a rookie, but this is his first year in the NHL, right?

Yeah. Yeah, he's a rookie this year. Yeah. So, I don't know. He wasn't, like, good or anything. Like, he was fine. He was perfectly all right. He was probably about league average if I had to guess.

but, you know, again, I don't really know who Washington would make available besides that. Because again, like... It could be like Brendan Dillon, potentially. Well, people have... Speaking of, like, connecting a guy to a team, people have been saying T.J. Oshy to Seattle

for the last like four years. So, I don't know. Yeah, I was going to try to find the projected Washington list because it was interesting. There was a few interesting names on there. So the projection was that they would protect Baxter, Shiri, Oshy, Wilson, Eller, Kisnetsov, Manta. And your D would be Carlson, Orloff, Schultz,

which means that you'd expose Brendan, Dylan, Nick Jensen, TVR, and Michael Kempney, and then had Vanichek as your goalie that you exposed. So, I don't know, it's kind of interesting. Be a few choices on that blue line. It just occurs to me, boys, that as we were talking about this expansion thing, we didn't talk about Teresenko requesting a trade. Oh, yeah. That happened the night of Game 5 as I scrambled around to write a story about it during the fucking Stanley Cuff game.

Tough one for the Blues, not only because they apparently did things that alienated Vladimir Teresenko and made him want to leave, but also a tough one for the Blues in the sense that he is damaged goods. requesting a trade and who the heck even knows what his value is at this point. Yeah, this is a tough one to do without retaining a big chunk of salary. I said that with Duncan Keith too, so let's see. I can't see anybody doing $7.5 million on a guy that is, was a consistent 30-goal score and has scored single digits the last couple of years. And at that point, if you're the blues, you might be saying, if we're going to eat half the salary, why not eat the whole salary and at least be the team that benefits if he does get back to where he can be.

But if he doesn't want to be there, I don't know. This is going to be a tough one. And I say that even acknowledging that he could be a 30-goal guy in this league again. It wouldn't shock me, but I don't know how you get this done in a way that makes sense for two teams. What do you think, Ryan? Yeah, no, I think that's about right. You know, it's another Jack Eichael situation insofar as he got two surgeries that did, or, you know, like the team basically made him get these two surgeries from what the report I read said. And they didn't work.

And so he went and got a different surgery. And that seems to have worked, I think. And so he's just frustrated with the kind of the way the team handled his medical situation. And that's understandable. And so, you know, you're not going to win of Vladimir Tarasenko trade at this point, just because he's played, I think, eight minutes in the last three seasons of being actually healthy. Tough one. So, like, who knows what he is?

Like, any team that's trading for him is. taking a huge fucking risk insofar as he could be cooked. And why would you want to be on the hook for the salary of a guy who is not physically able to be the kind of player we all think of him as being? And, you know, if that's the case, then, yeah, why would you do anything that isn't taking on a retained salary instead of the full freight? But even then, like, if you get Seattle to, or St. Louis to take the, to take the full freight, it's like, well, you know, he might still suck. Like, he might still be bad.

It's kind of a problem. And then you're stuck with a guy who costs $3.5 million or whatever it is and is not good for you. So, yeah. Again, that's the other thing is I don't know how many years he has left on his deal either. Yeah. A couple more, I think. Yeah. All right.

Let's close this one out with an overrated, underrated, favorite, least favorite. There are four choices. I will read them in random order. NWO members. Obviously, people thinking about the NWO because of the recent anniversary of the Hogan turn. Salad dressings. Donut flavors, which I don't know if we've done, but it sounds familiar.

And baseball sluggers, in honor of the. home run derby this week. I kind of prefer baseball sluggers, I think. But what do you think? Yeah, that one. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Overrated baseball slugger.

So this becomes a little bit complicated because of the steroid era, right? Not for me. I don't care about that shit at all. There you go. No. I'm going to tell you who my overrated slugger is. It's Raphael Palmero, who was actually 13th all-time in home runs.

But I don't think has ever really been, in my mind, in the pantheon of, like, greatest sluggers of all time. That kind of a guy. Yeah, that kind of a guy. Like, he sandwiched it between Harmon Killebrew and Reggie Jackson. And I don't think that I would put Raphael Palmero in that tier. And so I think he'd be overest. rated for me because I don't I don't rate him as one of the best sluggers of all time even though he's 13th all time in home runs.

Yeah, along pretty similar lines, I always thought Jeff Bagwell was just like, he's, my second most favorite famous person whose name is Blank, Blank F.F. Bagwell, buff Bagwell, number one, Jeff Bagwell, number two. Speaking of the NWO. Yeah, did he wear a hat? Do he wear like a top hat? You know, I always thought that one of the biggest mistakes Major League Baseball ever made was not having a Jeff Bagwell's mother on a pole. World Series.

All right, Sean, overrated slugger. Oh, boy. Oh, all right. All right, you know what? I'll just say it. David Ortiz. Oh, my take. Get mad to me all you want, Boston fans.

You've had way too much. good stuff happened to you. Only because, not because I don't like the guy, but only because we mentioned the steroid era. We went through this whole decade plus where Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire and all these guys were completely shunned from the game because they used steroids and they were big cheaters and nobody could go to the Hall of Fame. Nobody could have you, you just had to absolutely anyone who had even a whiff of steroids around them.

was blacklisted. And then David Ortiz comes around, hits 20 home runs for like the first 10 years of his career, gets, goes to Boston, magically becomes a 40 home run hitter overnight. And everybody's like, it's fine. And then he shows up on like the 2003 steroid test list. And people are like, that's okay.

And you're like, didn't we just all agree that anyone who was, no, we're, okay. And you're like, no, but this one has a boy. He's a oyster as personality and a character on SNL. He played for the Red So it's

fine And you're like Oh, okay I thought we all agreed That we weren't doing That but sure Right I am looking forward to him

Getting into the Hall of Fame And then that will open the door For everyone else So But yeah That just always struck me As a little weird I like it

I like it Underrated for me This is a shout out To all my friends in Canada Andre Dawson 45th all time in home runs with 4.38. When I was a kid, man, Andre Dawson steps to the plate and struck fear in the heart of the opposing team's fans. That guy could hit the fucking cover off the ball, and I loved Andre Dawson.

So he's my underrated guy. It doesn't get mentioned enough in the Pantheon. Mine is, um, hmm. I guess I would say Barry Bond. Barry Bonds, the greatest baseball player of all time. I think you could make a case for him to be... I think you could make the case that he's underrated just because of the tarnish. There is...

Yeah, no, exactly. Like, the fact that he's not in the Hall of Fame despite everything. Like, that's fucking ludicrous. It's insane. Because, you know, even if we're saying you throw out all his accomplishments when he was doing steroids or whatever, okay, he's still a Hall of Famer. Yeah. Everything he did before he came to San Francisco.

He's a fucking Hall of Famer. That's the part that kills you about bonds. It's like he didn't need it. Like he was already the best left fielder defensively, maybe of all time. And, you know, he was already an accomplished hitting star. And then, you know, steroids took him to a completely absurd level. But, like, he was already there. He was already on track.

There is an episode of the baseball podcast, effectively wild, where it's just like an hour of three or four guys sitting around saying, here's a crazy Barry Bond stat and it's you know it'll be like oh yeah the the season that he had you know all the all the intentional walks like he he accounted for 8% of all of Major League Baseball or whatever it was

you know yeah and it but it's just for an hour and every single stat is more impressive than the last one it fucking oh Barry Bond's rules the fact that Barry Bonds at his height got intentionally walked with the Base is loaded.

I think more than once. Yes. Yeah. That's the sort of thing when you were a kid, like you used to joke about that. Yeah. And that it actually happened.

And people were like, yeah, that's the right move. That's, right. He's insane. It's wild. His 2001 season,

which is the one where he hit 73 home runs, his OBP was 515. And then that was, the lowest for like of a four-year stretch. He would then have 582, 529, 609, a 609 OBP at fucking 39 years old. Wow. 609!

Wild. Yeah, he only hit 45 home runs that year also. So at 39 years old. OPS 1422. Insane. Come on. My guy, I'm going to go with Fred McGriff. Nice. Crime dog.

Yeah, just a guy, you know, came up with my favorite team, the Blue Jays, but when elsewhere, just was so great to watch, such a great swing. Absolutely should have been maybe in the Hall of Fame, but definitely a strong candidate. And I think he dropped off the ballot almost immediately because even though the writers all pay lip service to not wanting steroid guys, here's a guy who had no connection to that. that at all and they don't vote for him either. Finished tied with Lou Gehrig in career home runs, but was seven shy of 500, which probably would have got him maybe into the hall, but just an amazing guy to watch, all sorts of fun.

And I'll make him my pick, but runner up is a similar guy, Carlos Delgado. Oh, hell yeah. Just absolutely. I saw Carlos Delgado. I've told the story before, but in spring training, like three years before he made big leagues and he hit a ball like 800 feet and I just went home and like regaled my friends with stories of this mythical prospect that is like someday this guy's going to arrive and he's going to be so good. And I was right. Wow. Felt like Jeff Merrick was on the podcast for a second with the

I saw a guy first story. Um from favorite tough one for me. So my favorite my favorite uh slugger growing up with Strawberry because I was a Mets fan. I think I have a soft spot in my heart for the incredible circus act that was Jose Konseko in his prime. Yep. But it's, not to interrupt you, but can you imagine going back to like 1988 and telling like little kid Greg that neither Konseko or Strawberry would make the Hall of Fame?

It's crazy, right? He would have blown your mind. Yeah. Or Gooden at that point, too, like, for me. But my answer is Griffey. I mean, he hit at the right time for me, the cult of personality around Griffey, the, you know, excellence of his all-around game, that incredible, outside of strawberry, the best swing I've ever seen was Griffey's, as far as home run swings go.

And also, you know, it brings up that dynamic that we talk about in the show a lot, which is that in a pre-internet age, having this player all the way on the other side of the country for me as a kid was like made him like even more mythic for me, the fact that he played in Seattle. Yeah, that might as well have been on the moon. Yeah, well, it might as well have been on the moon for me because I was a National League kid. So I wasn't even seeing him come to town, right? Because it was for interleague play. I remember I remember Very distinctly watching

The whatever 90 or 91 World Series with With the twins and being like Oh that's Kirby Puckett I've heard so much about this time You know what I mean That was back when the All Star game was like Meaning meaningful

Yeah You're like oh crap It's Ozzy Smith That guy is That's what he looks like He did the clip Yeah Remember?

Yep Yep exactly So yeah So Griffey for me was my favorite My favorite position player of all time is Vladimir Guerrero. Oh, nice. Great pick. Yeah.

Just, you know, again, like kind of a circus act thing where it's like, oh yeah, did you see him throw out a guy from the warning track at third base? He just fucking gunned him down like it was nothing. Yeah, and then that same game, he also went out and hit two home runs and the expos went on to lose 4 to 2. Of course. Yeah. Oh, also, I just want to specify, because I didn't, I'm at Ken Griffey Jr., of course. I heard that you specified which one you meant. And Ryan means Vladimir Guerrero Jr.

Oh, no, I specifically said Senior. He specifically said the big man himself. I just want to make sure everyone knows that I'm not talking about Ken Griffey Sr. Those are my two favorite things as a baseball fans, home runs and right fielders gunning guys down. Yeah, absolutely. You know, guys who could do both. The thing that I always think about is how they said Ichero could have hit like 500 home runs if he wanted to, but he didn't want to. I don't know how true that is, but, you know, like just given how masterful he was at the plate and stuff, I'm like, you know what, I buy that.

The thing with Guerrero was like strike zone completely optional. Yeah, didn't matter. Didn't he? Did he hit a home run on a pitch that bounced once? Yeah, pituit. in the dirt, yes. Insane. Insane.

Yeah, he fucking rocks. Man, I could go down a list of dozens of these guys. Like I've said before, when I grew up, I was more a baseball fan than a hockey fan, and I loved the home run guys. There was a time when I could have named every 50 home run hitter in baseball history back before, like five guys a year we're doing it because of steroids. But I'm going to go with, it's a basic pick, but, hey, Hank Aaron, to do what he did for as long as he did under the circumstances of the time,

and to just do it with like the quiet grace and class and everything that he had was just absolutely amazing. And he should probably be a bigger sports hero than he even is. And I say that knowing that he is considered one of the all-time grades. but just in a world where a lot of fans didn't want him to do what he did, the fact that he did it that convincingly was just amazing. All right, least favorite for me, as I've been on the record many times in the show, I am a Mets fan that does color my feelings about Major League Baseball. So I say this with every ounce of my being,

fuck Chipper Jones Sure, yeah, that's fine Ryan? I don't think anybody cares about that here I don't know, like Gary Sheffield, he probably had like 500 home runs, right?

He's actually, I was looking at, I was surprised, he's 26th. 509 home runs ahead of Eddie Murray and right behind Melot. The fuck is Melot? I don't know that guy. Melod was a very,

first of all, Melot, very famous New York Giant, more importantly, other than Bobby Orr, probably the famous, most famous three-letter stretch with an O last name, crossword puzzle answer. Baseball's Mel is what they would say in the crossword puzzle. I'm literally scrolling down the all-time home run list trying to find somebody I don't like. Yeah, that's right. Every one of these guys, I'm like, he was cool.

I like when I see a guy hit a ball of fucking 100 miles. That's all I care about, really. I'm even trying to find, I guess, you know what? I'll stick to my Red Sox hate and say, like, Jim Rice, he probably hit a home run that made me sad when I was like eight years old. It probably happened. Yeah. But other than that, these guys are all great. I have a lot of respect for anybody who, you know, hit 400 home runs or whatever.

I'll even go so far as to say 300. 300's a shitload of home runs, man. You know? So, like, I think, how many guys is it? It's 20, hang on. So 27 guys have hit 500 home runs in Major League Baseball. And, wow, 45 guys have scored 500 goals in hockey. I would have thought it was more.

No, actually, you know what, that makes sense. Because 500 home runs still remains a pretty high. a pretty large benchmark, I think, in Major League Baseball. And even during the steroid era, not everybody got there. But 45 guys have scored 500 goals in hockey. You know who I realized I should have said for underrated, by the way, is Josh Gibson. Now that we're all going to act like, oh, yeah, actually the Negro leagues were the major leagues. Like, Josh Gibson, you know, I think the stats are spotty, but like they said he would have had more than like Ruth did.

so the fact that fucking Josh Gibson doesn't get talked about in that conversation in part because stat tracking was not great back for the Negro leagues yeah he was fucking really good he's one of those classic guys who could have he died when he was like in his 30s or whatever so he's one of those classic guys who might have even

at the end of his career coming to the major leagues and done something. So good, good, good, good, good remembering some guys over and underrated folks. All right. So check out the mailbag for more. We're going to be doing a bonus episode later this week as well. And, uh, that's the show for this week. You could follow my stuff in ESPN.com. Obviously, Emily and I, uh, super busy week next week with the expansion draft and the NHL draft and all that good stuff coming up, uh, shortly. So do check out the coverage there. And, uh, also, check out me and Ruby and Lambert on the Mizapod that covered the Top Chef finale,

which was a challenging show to do, given the circumstances of who won, but I think we handled it pretty well. Yeah, and check out EP Rinkside. If you want to sign up for a year, it's use the code, I love EP, all one word, and you'll get

whatever, three free months, I believe. And, you know, now's the time to be brushing up on your, on your prospect knowing. So draft coming right up. I've already having friends texting me saying, oh, who do you think my favorite team should pick at whatever, six or eight or what, and I go, I don't know, there's like nine guys and they're all pretty much the same in terms of quality.

So I figure it out. Thrill draft. But, you know, we have a huge, draft guide at EP. More than a thousand pages, it's really, really in-depth and good. So check it out. Find me on the Athletic.

I'm solidly into off-season mode, which means everything is going to get just very weird. I'm going to write things that I assume nobody is reading that I wouldn't try to pass off during the season. So, yeah, come check that out. And listen to me and Ian Mendez on the athletic hockey show. Hey, everybody knows that Weird Sean's the best, All right.

Thanks everybody for listening and supporting the show, and we'll talk to you soon. Take care. Bye, see it. Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense.

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