Puck Soup - It's Just Called Canuck Soup Now

Episode Date: February 1, 2023

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of Hagi and Nonsense. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects. I am Sean McIndoo from The Athletic. And we once again have to talk about the Canucks. I don't look, I don't know what you want for me, you know?

Mm-hmm. They keep doing stuff that's making news. Yeah, exactly. They're, uh... I'm not going to even talk about the I'll you okay everything. No. I don't care. Yeah.

Seems like that's like not any of my business. Yeah. If the players like, oh, it's not a big deal. Then salute to you, sir. It's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. He was playing with a tour and ACL for the entire season. It's not a big deal.

He said so. All right. I'll take his word for it. I'll take his word for it. I mean, the Canucks would never screw up an injury situation. No. It's fine. No, no, no.

It's actually totally fine. He said so. Who am I to say he's wrong? You know? Who am I to question someone's lived experience? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. All right.

But we do have to talk about the Bohore Vat trade. They did it. They did it a little earlier than I thought. I thought it would be like maybe right before the All-Star break. Okay. I guess the Canucks have off because three-quarters of the league has off right now. Like everybody's on a buy except the Carolina Hurricanes. They actually have to play themselves six times in a row.

Yep, that's right. But yeah, Vancouver didn't have a game between last Friday and whatever February 6th is, so like five days from now. Yeah. It's a long time to be off. It is, but this is, you know, the players wanted this, and every team gets it either right before or right after the All-Star break, and then they come back and they complain that they lost their first game back because they were rusty.

But enjoy the beach, NHL players. Yeah, was it, they said Bo Horvett was at Disney World when the trade happened? Did I see this? Oh, no, was he? Like, just wearing Mickey years, and the phone rings you've been traded. Great. What Stanley Cup contender?

Going down Splash Mountain. Going down Splash Mountain for the final time. They closed Splash Mountain. Did you know that? I heard that. Yeah, I think I did hear that. What playoff-bound contender am I going to? I can't wait to find out.

Well, about that. Yeah. I think it was Dom said with this trade, the Islanders' playoff chances increased from 14% to 9%. 19% Okay. Which goes to show how much getting like an already

good player having like a career year moves the needle. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of does make you feel like what are we doing with this trade deadline thing that we're going nuts over? Yeah, we got to go out and get Gavrikov.

This guy's fucking unbelievable. He is this, he is this year's David Savard. for him. Ben Chirot. Yeah. Yeah. In that he is also having a bad year and didn't ever really had a particularly good one.

But everybody's like, he's actually great. He's unbelievable. Yeah. So. Let's talk more of that trade. Yeah. So what angle do we start on this from? Is it, do we start the Vancouver side or the Lou side? All right.

Let me start the overarching thing that everybody's talking about. Well, not everybody. But I've seen this phrase used many times. to describe this trait. Loo's, lose. Do you agree with that characterization? Hmm. You know, yeah, I, I, good old Lou.

Don't you feel like we just, like, judge him by a different set of standards than anyone else? Is he that scary? I mean, I don't. No, that's true. You don't. But do most of the hockey media? Yes, 100%. Oh, this guy's freaking mysterious to me.

Yeah. And you know what? There was a time where that was not a bad way to look at it. He was having a lot of success, occasionally doing unorthodox things. You know, I appreciate an out-of-the-box thinker, but this was quite out-the-box. Stinker, you know what I'm talking about? There it is. There's our clip.

Swish, baby. Oh, we don't do that. Oh, no. No extension. Apparently no conversation about an extension. And yet everybody just assumes that it's going to happen, which feels to me like everyone just assumes the Islanders are going to give him way too much money. I did see, I can't remember.

Or some insider guy was like, the thinking is that Lou wouldn't have made, it might have been Frank Sarah Valley. The thinking was that Lou wouldn't have made this trade without, at least a pretty, you know, pretty strong percentage that there would be an extension signed at some point. And Horvett has said, like, I'm definitely open to it. Now, will he be open to it after two months of playing for the Islanders? Well, that's fast, you know. I mean, I think it's, it's fair to assume that at some point in the trade conversation,

Lou asks Patrick Alvin or whoever he's talking to, okay, what's he asking for contract? wise. Yeah, for sure. And they say, look, he wants eight times nine million and we, we aren't willing to do that. By the way, somewhat related. Did you see that's what Horvats asking for? Or Horvett.

Yeah, obviously. Dylan Larkin. That's what Dylan Larkin is asking. Oh, wow. Well, I mean, you ask. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't. So I had seen that someone offered him, or the Red Wings offered him like eight I eight or whatever, and he was like, no, thank you.

I would, I would expect that that's where it comes in. Dylan Larkins a $9 million player now? Well, yeah. Can that be right? He's, Cap hasn't gone up in three years. I mean, I think Dylan Larkin's a million bucks better than Jack Hughes, right? You would say that.

Well, well, well. All right. Throwing the line into the water and now let's see what we. Let's see what we have. Oh, we have somebody named Gerg is on line one. And it's just, says death threat. Yeah.

So, uh, yeah. Okay. So, so walk me through this. If I'm the islanders, yeah.

If I'm Lou, yeah. Why, what is it about this year's team that makes me say I've got to be in on the biggest name? This is his last year, uh, under contract.

For, uh, Lou Lamarillo, that is. Okay. He's, he, he too is in a walk year.

All right. That explained that, yeah, and plus he's, what, 800 years old. 800 years old. So, yeah, that is it just that simple that he's got a team that is, the Islanders are a team that is good enough to make the playoffs and then go in a long run if everything breaks perfectly. They've got arguably the best goalie in the league. Yes, that's what I was going to say.

That is the great leveler, right? Yes. That in theory, if you make the playoffs, which I don't think is particularly like, for these guys. Like just mathematically, they would have to make up so much ground that if you get into the playoffs,

you have the best goalie in the world over the last two seasons. Look it up, folks. This is real, you know? And if you have the best goalie in the world, you can look at the Rangers last year. If things break, like you said, exactly right for you.

If you're going to play three, guys who are eating freaking spicy pork and broccoli between periods every, every game in the playoffs, then you can go on a deep playoff run. Hey, you know who also did this recently? Is the New York Islanders did it twice in a row when on deep playoff runs despite not having particularly good teams in the regular season? But better teams than this one? Better teams than this, for sure.

Yeah, they had Devon Taves back then. Mm-hmm. But, so this is the thing I want to say. is why I don't think this is necessarily a lose for the islanders. If they get Horvatt locked in for eight years beyond this one, seven year, whatever the number is, and it's like a reasonable cap hit. I don't think you could make a case that he's going to make more than Matt Barzal because Matt Barzell is the captain of the team.

I don't think you're signing him if he's... What's Barzell at? Nine? Is Barzell nine? Okay. I thought I thought Barzell started with an eight. So that's, it might be an eight and a half, which like,

it's nine point one. Okay, so yeah, maybe. Nine one, yeah. So there you go. But by the way, can I, can I just pause for a second and say how stupid that is, this idea that, well, we can't have, we can't sign this guy because he'll make more than our other guy that we signed. In some cases, cheap.

I'm not saying in Barzell's case, but like I saw something with the devils where it was like, oh, you know, if they're in on Tim Mo Meyer, but they, they won't pay them more than Jack Hughes. Hey, you got Jack Hughes at an extraordinary, you, you fleece Jack Hughes on that contract. You can't turn around and say, that's now the bar that everyone else has to get. I guess it worked for the Bruins for years, but. And the Red Wings, right? Like, you get guys to fall in line.

Now, I guess with Jack Hughes or like Matt Bars out, like, those guys aren't Nick Lidsstrom and Patrice Bersron, like, guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famers. No question. about it, right? So it's maybe harder to get guys to stay in line on that when you're... So are you saying that, just as a Leafs fan, are you saying that sliding a blank check across the table to your good players and say, just write whatever number you can think of that wasn't a good strategy?

That's interesting, yeah. But I think you can, look, I wouldn't personally want to be paying Bo Horvatt $9 million next year or even eight and a half, quite frankly. But, you know, again, like we said it last week, the Islanders are kind of a win now team. Now, are they a team that's actually set up to win now? No, but there's the circumstances around what their roster is where everybody's like at least 28 years old except for like three guys. And I guess now Bo Horvath, that's four guys, right?

that you kind of have to be in win now mode. And again, I don't think they're going to make the playoffs this year, let alone like do anything in the playoffs if they do. And but like that's just kind of where they are. And so like this is again, like stating that I don't think that this is a team that's going anywhere anytime soon. Next year, certainly not either unless they make major changes, which they kind of can't do to their cap constraints. Like, this makes sense of your Lou Lamarillo and you're like, well, fuck it, I got to empty the tank.

Or they might, like, I wonder how much, look, it's maybe easy to forget now, but over the summer, there were people being like, what the fuck are they doing? They haven't signed anybody. Yep. And, like, they're, like. They did so little that we made up an Asim Cadry signing for weeks. and we're like, yeah, clearly they must. Yeah, and also, like, I remember watching a clip of, like,

they stopped John Ledecki, the owner of the islanders, like, on the street, and we're like, so what's up with Lou? And he's like, Lou's doing a great job. I have full confidence. You know, that kind of Pablam. Mm-hmm. And it's like, if you're stopping the owner on the street, the streets of Long Island and going,

so your GM's fucking up big time, right? Like, that, I wonder if Lou thinks if I don't make the playoffs this year, I'm not coming back. Yep. Yeah, which wouldn't be the worst. I mean, you've talked me into it. I mean, this is just, this is, we, I think it was last week, we said exactly this, right? I mentioned how I had referred to the islanders as being in win now mode.

And some islander fan told me, no, they're not. And I said, if you're not rebuilding, you're in win now. Well, I think I won that argument. I think the islanders are officially in win now mode. But that having been said, I think you're right. you have to view this as they have traded for eight years of Bohorbat, not that they have rented Bohorbat so they can make the playoffs and get swept by the Bruins. Now, Obama voice, let me be clear.

I do think this is a lost trade for the islanders, even if they got out from under a bad contract for Anthony Bovillier, I wonder who signed that. And, you know, they gave up on Atu Ratu. And the flexibility on their first round pick, like they get to pick if, you know, if it looks like the 12th pick this year or whatever. I think it's just mostly like, if we win the lottery, we're going to keep this. Right. And if we don't, then we're going to let you have it.

Because it becomes unprotected next year. Yes. But the islanders have the choice of whether to protect it this year. It's very complicated. I think it's that complicated. I think you just described it. If it's in the top 12, the islanders have the right to say we're keeping it. Yep.

And, you know, and if it's not, if it's 13th or later, which I think is a possibility, I think there's a chance they finish like 14th from the bottom. Then that's the kind of, and like, that's, again, that's not helping the Islanders now. The risk is that they decide to protect it this year with like the eighth pick or whatever. And then next year their absolute dog shit, which is possible just because, like, how many goalies have, like, Vezina quality seasons? We've seen this happen. We've seen this happen. Multiple times in the last few years, right?

Yep. With the senators and the sharks and the with the senators in the avalanche and currently with the Panthers and the Canadians. Like, getting a future unprotected first is good business. It can turn into nothing. Or, I mean, it can turn into nothing. more than a typical first-round pick, but it's a good gamble to take. And I think that's part of what makes this attractive

for the Canucks is, you know, the return feels underwhelming at first when you just go, oh, they got a first, they got a prospect, they got a player, you know, but the Islanders first holds far more value than the Bruins first. To make an example. Without quest.

So I don't hate to, this for the Canucks. I don't like it. I mean, I hate it for the Islanders as a rental, but if it's not a rental, then it's TBD based on the contract they sign. But I will say, people who read my stuff, no, the shiny new toy syndrome is looming large here for a big overpay. You know, ask the flames what it's like to trade for a guy and then have to sign them to an extension. See how that turns out. Yeah, and so, like, people are saying it's a loss for the Canucks. I don't, like you say, the return is definitely underwhelming on paper. Like, Beauvilliers is another, like, overpaid middle six-winger who kind of isn't very good. And the Canucks have, I think, they're up to 60 of those guys on their roster. But he has signed for this year and next year, which is... Well, that's what I'm saying.

That's a problem for next year. I wouldn't want to have to pay Anthony Bovillier next year. like he's again he's an okay player but like he's is he a four million dollar player no and now that makes another like another on the huge pile of Canucks guys where it's like is he okay sure is he two million dollars overpaid 100% you know um

but I think they did save a little bit of money this year and obviously like next year they're just not going to be in the the Bo Horvad business, so they quote unquote saving money, but not really. And again, this is, I don't think, well, let me back up. You tell me what you think on this, because I don't think the Canucks are looking at this going,

ooh, Anthony Bovillier, we want him, put him in the trade. I think this is the Islander saying, to make the money work, you're going to take this guy we want. And then the Canucks are looking at it going, well, you know what, if we're going to get stuck taking back a bad contract, let's take a back of bad contract in a guy who's like 26 or 27 and not a guy who's 35. Yeah, and Beauvilliate, to be clear, isn't 26 until June. Okay.

So, I mean, it's not, it's, you know, the odds of him being a good player for you are not high, but they're not zero. So I don't hate, you know, I don't hate that side of it. Again, this is just a guy I wouldn't personally want to have. have locked in. Now, again, like, this is a guy that they could flip at the deadline and eat half his salary. And if he's, if he's coming in a scosh over two, somebody's interested in him for next year. There's no question about it, you know? And with Ratu, like, it's, it's a situation where the Islanders got him later than they should have in the draft. But he's also not like the highest ceiling guy. I think most

scout people or whatever would say like, oh yeah, he has the potential to be like a good scoring middle six guy. Yeah. Now he was The skating seems to be the problem. The story on him, like, if that's your problem. He was ranked super high at one point

in his draft year. Like a potential top five pick and then didn't go until the second. What was the story there? Was he injured? Was he? It's, it was, uh, skating is, is the big concern with him. What was his draft year?

I'm trying to think. 2021, I guess. Yeah. He was drafted. Yeah, he only played, yeah, I'm seeing here, he only played like 40, uh, games in his draft year, which is not a lot, you know, um, and between, like at the, at the, in the adult, the Finnish men's league he had three goals,

three assists in 35 games. Now there could have been a million different reasons or I don't know like maybe they didn't use him on the power play they only used him in fourth line minutes probably whatever. Sure. Okay. But the point is there was at some point this guy has shown. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, like he should not have dropped into the middle of the second round and he did. And so for the Islanders to get him there is nice. but I think over time it's become clear he shouldn't have dropped that far but he also didn't deserve that like high-end hype that he was getting either and so you kind of settle into

this guy should have been a mid to late first round pick and there's nothing wrong with getting a mid to late first round pick who's 21 years old or whatever but is he the player that you know, like you say, that high draft pedigree. Right, that high draft pedigree makes it feel like, whoa, they got a seal here. And it's maybe not that cut and dried.

Yeah. I like the player, but, you know, is he going to be like even a top six, like a, you know, second line scoring guy that you put on the power play? I kind of tend to think not, but, you know, he's 21. There's room to grow here. and, you know, I don't want to count the kid out. But then this is Patrick Alvin going, oh, we got three first rounders for Bo Horvatt. And it's like, yeah, but Bo Villiers, I mean, he has like, what, one 20 goal season?

And Rodoo is, who knows? And this one, the pick is like the prize here, obviously. But here's why I consider this a win for. for the Canucks. This is them acknowledging. We kind of do have to be a little more aggressive in the rebuild than we would have ever said going into this year. Yeah.

And I think that in itself is a win for a team that is where the Canucks are. There were some comments by Jim Rutherford about wanting guys who were ready to step in that if I was a Canucks fan would have worried me that they were, going to go and trade this guy for a bunch of 23-year-olds and second-chance type of guys. And they did not do that. This is a very meat and potato standard issue rental deal at the deadline, other than the fact that it came a month before the deadline.

And that's, I mean, the way things got in Vancouver, doing things the normal way feels like, A little bit of a sense for life. Yeah. Yeah, big step for them. And again, do I love the trade for the Canucks? No, I think it was Kevin Weeks said, like, they didn't should, they got this offer from the islanders and were like sold. They did not take this to any other suitors and be like, can you beat this?

Which I always feel like, you know, is not, I always hate it when you hear like, oh, we would have done better. Well, dude, did anyone not know Bo Horvatt was on the block? Like, you know, this was, yeah, I mean, put it this way, they certainly weren't going to get a first round pick that was better than the IHenegers pick. Absolutely. They might have gotten a better roster player or maybe a better prospect. Probably, yeah. But they're not, probably not getting both of those things.

And like you say, they're definitely not getting a pick that is likely to be higher than this one. Yeah. And again, that is trying to win hockey games. We use the label first round. pick, but the difference between, you know, an Islander's pick that even if they make the playoffs is still going to be in the teens, uh, versus the other contenders that are likely to go deep in the playoffs. So you're, you're talking high 20s, maybe even 30s. Uh, it's, it's quite significant. Yep. And, and like I say, I think, I said this on Twitter. The horse is

out of the barn on this Islander season, right? Like, they're just, and it, and it was, and it was, a slight overpay for the player in question. Just, I don't know how much he's going to be able to replicate this success on the island versus what he did in Vancouver, if that makes sense. Say what you want about the Canucks. They have some talented forwards who are going to be able to put Bo Horvett in a position to succeed that the islanders arguably do not have. So, I am curious to see if Bo Horvett continues.

used to be like, oh, he could score like 55 goals this year. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. That's, but I mean, he's, he's having the career year. Like, he's, yeah, he's awesome. He's a real good player. From a pure money perspective, he's smart to sign an extension ASAP. Like, get your agent on that right now.

And now, you know, from when I want to play for the islanders for the next eight years, eh, for $9 million a year, I'm pretty sure you could twist my arm into doing that. Yeah. One last thing I want to say about. this trade. People have floated the idea that if the islanders drop further

out of contention, they might flip Horvett again at the deadline. They have more than a month. Assuming they have not signed him, obviously would be. Yeah, but like, how realistic

of a possibility do you think that is? I think that's only a possibility if they sit down to talk contract and it goes, where. Like, they sit down to talk contract and he goes, oh, yeah, I want, I want 11 million bucks. And they go, oh, geez, okay, forget that. Yeah. Sure. And they fall out. You know, it was interesting because I, you know, I saw that. I saw it actually made me laugh because we put, we, the athletic posted our new trade board. And they're like, with Bo Horvott off the list, you know, here's our new,

our new list. And I saw multiple replies going like, you shouldn't take Bo Horvart off the list quite yet. You should leave him on there. But the thing that came to mind, I was like, when did this happen? This did happen at some point where a team traded for a guy earlier in the season, weren't contending like they thought they were, didn't sign him, and they flipped him at the deadline. And then it finally, I finally figured out what it was. And it's actually, it was the Islanders. Now, this was a while ago, but it was, remember when they picked up Thomas Vanek from the Sabres?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they gave up a ton. Now, that was different because they traded, they made that trade in like October or November. I was going to say, I remember that being even before U.S. Thanksgiving. Yeah, it was not a, like, a case of a couple weeks. But they brought him in to be the big guy.

They were going to sign him, you know, make him, you know, a new building block. Didn't sign him. The team was bad. And they flipped him in Montreal and I think got like a second round pick. So it was a big loss on the overall. So it was the island. obviously that was pre-Lew.

I think it's a non-zero chance, but I also think we're probably making too big a... If he's not signed at the deadline and the Islanders are clearly not a playoff team, then yes, I think it's absolutely possible that he gets moved. But I think both of those things are unlikely and the contract is

the more unlikely of those two. Yeah. I think it would take the Islanders losing like seven in a row. Before Lou was just like, oh, I have to give up the ghost here. Yeah, if there are four points back at the deadline, this, I don't think. Oh, we're three games away, you know, classic situation. But, yeah, I think it's unlikely, just again, like this is kind of Lou maybe fighting for his job a little bit.

So the idea that, because we see it all the time, teams like effectively eliminated from playoff contention. they're, you know, but then they win like six out of their last date and everybody goes, oh, next year though, they're going to be good. Yeah, we lit up those fourth string goaltenders and. Yeah, all those teams that were resting their best players and then we played the worst team in the league, the last three games of the season. Correct. Yeah.

I don't, how about this? This news just just came across the wire, Gustav Nyquist, done for the year. It's so tough that all of these bad teams that are in the running for the lottery are the ones having all of these terrible injuries that shut guys down for the entire season. Yeah. And all of the teams that are still contending, I guess, have all healthy guys who are definitely not playing through terrible injuries. That's right. You know what? This is apropos of nothing, but I just thought about this. Did you see about Pat Hickey? Yes, that he, the legendary Montreal sports writer, and he took a buyout or walked away so that a younger colleague would not be laid off based on seniority and all that stuff. Yeah, someone just retweeted that into my timeline where, yeah, like basically they were like,

you can keep your job, but we'll have to lay somebody else off. And he was like, no, then forget it. I quit. Now granted, this guy is like 70-something years. Oh, 58 years in the newspaper business. So he's probably older than, it's probably more than 70 something at this point, right? Yep.

But yeah, like, I think that rocks. That's so cool. Shout out to Pat Hickey. I don't have anything else to say about it. But again, that just got retweeted in my timeline. So ultimate respect to Pat Hickey for that one. And then one last thing I want to talk about before we take a break. My friend,

your friend, everybody in the hockey world's best buddy, Gary Bettman, the Sports Business Bureau gives him a lifetime achievement award. After 30 years, Bettman is the longest tenured commissioner in any of the major men's professional sports leagues in North America. He sure is. And it is his 30-year anniversary today. It is, yeah. Happy anniversary, Gary.

Salute, brother. Three decades on the job. Now listen, everything you need to know about why the Sports Business Journal gave him this award is in the image that they posted congratulating him for winning the Lifetime Achievement Award. Because there's a little kid in a Ranger jersey holding a sign that says, Mr. Bettman, we'll play for free. That's everything you need to know about what he won this. is holding a sign saying you're going to need to do better than that. How about you give me $200? That would be great.

But, like, that's why, is because he, more than any major sport, like, took a strong union and just grounded into fucking dust. Yep. Like, the NHL, people, people don't know this. When, before there was a salary cap in the NFL, NHL, the percentage of like what what hockey related revenues players made was like in the 70s or something like that. It was high. It was quite high, yeah. And even when they started the salary cap, I think it was a 58-43 split

or 42 split for the players, something like that. And now it's 50-50. And the NHL Bunyan famously kicked Betman's behind in his first lockout in 94 they absolutely stomped him and he never forgot and he never forgave and yeah so lifetime achievement award look i've got a piece on the athletic today where i'm like i look at his 30 years and the good and the bad and it's you know my my view uh yeah i won't reiterate it or read it to people here um but uh all i will say is if you hear somebody say the Barry Betman's been great because we have record revenues. Then you're not listening to a serious person.

You're listening to somebody who's either doing Gary Betman a favor or just doesn't really know how the sports business world works. It doesn't get the biz. That's right. I've told this story before, but this is like five years ago, I think. I was on some radio program. And we were talking about Gary Bedman. And the host, you know, made that point.

So, you know, revenues are through the roof. And I said, yeah, but revenues are through the roof in every sport. And then just kind of off the cuff, I said, you know, every sport in the world is making record revenues now compared to what they used to make other than probably boxing. Because there was a time when boxing was the number one sport in the world, Mohammed Ali and all of these guys. And I couldn't even tell you a boxer from the last decade who wasn't like, you know, people watch YouTube guys box now instead of actual boxing. So I said, everybody's making record revenue except for. boxing. And I had somebody like email me and they're like, hey, I understand the point you were making, but just so you know, boxing revenue is through the roof right now, too, because

of... Yeah, it's just like not in the U.S. Yeah, they said nobody... It's insanely popular elsewhere. Yeah, well, it wasn't even that. They're like, you know, it's, you know, the generation of fighters are boring and nobody cares and everything, but also revenue is through the roof because there's just so much money in sports now that you can have an unpopular, boring sport. and it's still going to make way more money than he used to. So, yeah, Gary Betman's ears perked up. I'm popular and boring. Exactly.

That's exactly what it is. So anyways, I would encourage people to read the piece, and I would encourage people to not swallow the whole, like, oh, but revenues are, but franchise values. There's that graph that was going around of, you know, franchise values in the last 20 years. So I want to break that down. Yeah.

I want to break that down. So this graph, posted by Danny Page, I don't know where he gets this data from. So, you know, take it, take it for. for what you will, but it's just like NHL team or team valuation, individual

team value average for the four major sports. And in the year 2000, everybody was at or below 500 million bucks thereabouts. Yes. And the NFL was way out

in front, then Major League Baseball, then the NBA, then deadlocked. last the NHL. The NHL is now at $630 million. It's more than doubled the average franchise value, right? Yay. But the NFL started right around $500 million,

and now it's at $2.6 billion. Major League Baseball probably looks like about, again, like the numbers aren't fully on the graph here, but it looks like about maybe $300 million, now $1.7 billion. NBA, between the NHL and Major League Baseball, so call it $250 million, something like that, whatever. 1.9 billion now. Then the NHL, maybe around $200 million, $630 million.

So this is like exponential growth for everyone. There's like a huge part of the chart in the mid-20, like, looks like 2010, 2012, something like that, where the line just starts going like almost vertical for a few years. And then the NHL is like not doing that. And again, that part of that is the insanely bad NBC contract that the league locked itself into for 15 years or whatever. Yes. Well, I guess it was two contracts. But you know what I mean.

Yeah. But that NBC TV deal that everybody thought was so great. Yeah, and this is, again, whenever I'm critical of Gary Bettman or I break this argument out, a lot of people, the other thing people will come back with and they'll be like, well, you know, what? Did you think the NHL was going to pass the NBA? Did you think the NHL was going to take over Major League Baseball? No. Nobody thought that. But again.

But it's about rising commensurate with your competition. Exactly. And the NHL just got left in the fucking dust, full stop. And that's because the league sucks. It's a bad league, folks. there you go that's it hockey fans say it all the time

it's the best sport with the worst run league I don't know how you could even argue it look at this fucking graph well you can't see the graph but you know what I mean seek out the graph it was posted by

at Danny Page yeah so so two things on that first of all somebody please lay Ryan saying look at this graph over nickelback please and put that out now see they had a big viral hit with that last week.

They did. Did you see this? They are, they, they are annoyingly amusing on TikTok. They were, they were, they were, I think that pose was positively epic. It was baking for the win. And then the other thing is, did you see, uh, the, the other, the report that went out. And I don't know how, I mean, this, this seems to come from decent sources, but that TV ratings are down significantly this year?

Yeah, this was also from the Sports Business Journal. Right. And Mark J. Burns posted this. NHL U.S. TV national viewership down 22% this season. NHL regular games to date have averaged 373,000 viewers on ESPN and TNT. Second season of the seven-year pact with Disney and Turner, NHL averaged 478,000 viewers at this point last season. Yeah.

So that's tough. And part of it is that there's, there is nothing about this season that would suggest that ratings should be down. Relative to last year, the year before, and the cap era, this season's been perfectly entertaining. There's good stories. I think this has been a better season than most in recent memory. So the tough thing is that what that suggests to me is that when the new deal came out and you have these two new TV partners going out there and you have ESPN acknowledging hockey again and all of this stuff happening that there were a large number of fans out there who were either lapsed hockey fans or bands who were kind of aware of hockey but had never really given it.

shot or maybe new fans looking for something different who decided last year to give the NHL a try to see what see what it's a bear and that an awful lot of them didn't see anything that made them want to keep watching and they are gone again and that is that that's not a that's not a criticism of last year it's not like you know anything happened last year it was this is just what the product has settled into in 30 years of Gary Batman is not appealing to a significant number of sports fans, even the ones that you can get to sit down. I mean, we all know, look, there's a lot of fans in the States that will just, they don't care about hockey.

They never will. You're ever going to get them on board. Fine. These were fans who were willing to give the game a shot. They sat down. They watched six goals a game. They watched 10-minute replay reviews. They watched teams not trying to score.

at the end of regulation. And all of this stuff that's been an issue for years and years, and they went, no, click, I'm going to watch something else. And that's, that's it. I mean, if, if that theory is right, those, those fans are gone, you're not, you're not getting them back until maybe the next TV deal. And even then, right? Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, it's, it's just, again, I feel like an old man yelling at clouds whenever I talk about this stuff, but the, the, the fact that scoring ticked up, like, 5%, and people freaked out about how wonderful it was and what a great job the NHL was doing. Like hockey can be so much more fun than this, but it's been 30 years of defense, defense, defense, and the players who played in the clutch and grab era have gone on to become coaches, and some of them have coached players who are now coaches. Right. It's, I don't know how you get out of it at this point.

The time to fix this was 25 years ago, and we didn't have any leadership back then that was interested in doing it. And I mean, this is this is just we're paying that Piper to this day. Yeah. I think the other thing to say is that

personally, I find it has never been more fucking difficult to figure out where an NHL game is playing and whether I'm actually able to watch it. I feel like there's a higher number of games on

the NHL network that are just not on ESPN. It used to be that, you know, when it was Center Rice and you got it through your cable package, those games were just available to you. That's not the case anymore. So there's a bunch of games. Yeah, there's a bunch of games that I wanted to see this year that I was like, well, it's on NHL network. I guess I'll go fuck myself, including every early hockey night in Canada game.

Yes. And I should say after, you know, my favorite tweet on this was the, the acting Fulaman. I don't know if you follow him on Twitter. Everybody should, A2 Fulman. He says, he quote tweets the viewership being down. He says, I don't want to speculate, but I can say with 100% confidence

that this is because of things that annoy me personally. Yes, we could all look at this and go like, oh, you know what it is? Like, I'm sitting here going, oh, it's that offside review. That's what's causing this. And I'm sure somebody else is like, you know,

ah, nobody knows what goalie interference is. And somebody else is like, too much, too much Leafs on TV. It's their stupid fans. Let me, let me advance this theory as well, right? Uh, who sucks this year? Who's bad at hockey this year?

Uh, Detroit, Philadelphia, Chicago. These are major markets. Montreal. There's absolutely, well, I mean, that doesn't, I mean, that's America, but, yeah. But, but there's just like absolutely no fucking reason to watch tune in and watch these bum-ass teams, right? There's just no reason to do it. it. Oh, boy, I'm going to see him lose three to one again. Great.

You know? And I wonder how I don't know if that amounts to a 22% drop in ratings, especially because you can go, well, the Bruins have never been better and like that's a popular market. And most of those teams were bad last year too, so. Yeah. Now the Bruins are also a team that is almost never on

national TV. I feel like, I feel like they're always on Nesson, which again, it means I personally can't fucking watch them without having to go through like sketchy websites that do 15 pop-ups a minute or whatever, you know. Yeah, which you of course do not do. No, I've never done that.

And in fact, I really, I usually don't do that unless, you know, if they're playing like the Leafs on a Saturday night or something that's different. But yeah, I'm just not going to go through the hassle of watching a fucking Bruins game. If, oh, they won, they won four to one again. Okay. You know, that's all I need to know. At this point, I get, I get the picture. But, yeah, I think it is just like a number of major teams are just like not very good.

this year. The islanders among them, arguably. And like the declining years of the penguins, it seems like people are pissed off about the penguins every other fucking week out of Pittsburgh. So I honestly think that, again, like if we're saying, oh, the reason that the national game on NBC was the Flyers versus the Rangers for the sixth week in a row is because there are only like eight teams than anybody actually fucking cares about in like good numbers. Like having half of the those teams suck this year is a problem. Yes.

Well, yeah, especially when your entire marketing strategy is just to market the same half dozen teams. That's what? Not their players, not their stars. I think it, I think it's kind of, uh, you know, a, a, a vicious circle here where if you only promote the same six teams, it's because those are the only six teams that are selling fucking a lot of jerseys and getting good local TV ratings. but then that makes people not care about the Florida Panthers

or not that they're good this year or you know the devils or whoever the hurricanes people don't care about those teams on a national basis as much as they care about the Bruins or the Rangers or the capitals or whoever and then it just like it repeats itself it just circles back around too we can't put those teams on TV and again and that

Then, you know, you compare to a league like the NFL that knows how to market individual stars. And so when Brett Farb winds up in Green Bay or Payton Manning winds up in Indianapolis, they just turn those teams into marquee teams that are must watch, unlike what the NHL does. Yeah, and I mean, who's not going to want to tune in to watch the Islanders now that they have Bo Horvath, you know? I know I will. All right, why don't we take a break and we'll be right back. This week's episode of Puck Soup is brought to you by Factor and Folks. It's the new year.

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That's athletic greens.com slash puck. Check it out. All right, Sean. Which deeply unpleasant thing would you like to talk about first? Bobby Hall or the Rangers Pride Night thing? Let's do the Rangers first. Rangers it is. I think everybody knows where we stand on this.

I don't think it needs a lot of explicating here. the only thing I really want to say about this is that the Ivan Proverov thing and the leagues like hey what are we going to do we can't force a guy to do this statement you know that

that was a message that was received loud and clear by the New York Rangers whoever made this call and I you know I have my suspicions about that I think it starts kind of up at the the tippy top of that organization with the owner if I had to guess that message was received loud and clear

you have the green light to actually not care about this if you really don't want to and I'm not saying like individual guys on the Rangers don't want to do it or management or whoever is in charge of these decisions I think I think that there are probably guys who feel similar to Ivan Proverov there but probably more guys

would have been willing to wear the pride jerseys as they have for many years, right? Sure. But that's the thing. That's why I don't necessarily buy that theory, which is that the Rangers have done this for years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that every team in the league. I can't imagine. Yeah. I don't know that.

So it's, you know, it's not like if it was James Dolan or whoever was with the Rangers didn't want to be involved in this sort of thing. that they could have just not done it. I almost feel like it's, I mean, it's obviously linked to the Proveroff thing. But I feel like what may have happened, and we have to speculate because the Rangers aren't telling us anything, is that they saw what happened with Proberov.

They saw how furious so many fans were. They saw what the pushback look like. And then at some point, some player says, oh, by the way, guys, I'm also not going to be participating. Right. And they go, you know what? It would be better just not to do it than to have this happen. And, you know, whether that's because maybe the player was a bigger star or a bigger part of their long-term plans.

Or maybe it was some other reason that they figured, okay, let's just skip this entirely. maybe thinking it would blow over or not be noticed. But this was obviously an incredibly sloppy and just wrong way to handle it. To announce it, to say we're doing this, we're going to do an auction for charity, and then to scrap that component of it. Now, they did still have the Pride Knight and they had events and, you know, the puck drop and rainbow colors and that sort of thing. but to announce an element of it and not follow through

on the heels of what happened in Philadelphia. Like I said, just totally they got the green light from the message on, it's really up to you if you actually want to go through with all this kind of stuff, got received loud and clear by somebody in the Rangers organization. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if it started with the owner, but, like, I think your theory of one player saying, oh, he didn't do it, I'm not doing it. That's equally plausible.

Yeah, like Larry Brooks in the Post strongly hinted that it would, it came from up above. Yeah. And the reporting that they, but the reporting that the Post had was that they said that players, plural, did not go to coaches or management and say, we don't want to do this. And in fact that several players,

did want to do it, but we're surprised that it didn't happen. They got to the rank and were like, what, you know, what's going on? And it was like, oh, yeah, we're not doing that. And they had, you know, no idea that there had been no discussion as a team about not doing. But to me, that simply suggests that, you know, some individual player or group of players. And look, because it was Proverov, a lot of people are immediately looking at the Russian players on the Rangers, which I don't think is fair or realistic as far as. as, you know, it's certainly not just Russian players who have.

They don't, yeah, they don't have a hive mind on this. Yeah, they don't have a hive mind and they don't have a monopoly on noxious, dumb views that they want to inflict on other people. So another mess for the NHL and the thing, not the thing. Another thing that sucks about all of this is it really feels like the end result of this is going to be that we're going to see fewer teams doing this. going for. A hundred percent. Not even a question. In this off season, there's going to be just teams going, you know what?

Just why put ourselves in this position? And the answer to why put yourselves in the position is because it's the right thing to do. But that's not how these teams tend to think. So I, yeah, I don't know. It's just really unfortunate all the way around. And it's unfortunate that we still have to have these conversations and that, you know, stuff like this is still objectionable for anyone and that in this case, you know, a chance to send a positive message and raise money and all of that stuff goes by the wayside. And I guess the

last point I'll make on it is the point that I tried to make on Twitter where I said, look, whatever you think of what the Flyers did, at least they didn't, they didn't hide Proverava way. They didn't, they made him be accountable to a degree. And I'm, and I'm Remember exactly with the words. To the slightest degree. Yeah. Whatever words I used, I had a lot of people push back and be like, you know, what level of of accountability, you know, did he, he read a statement and then he didn't take any more

questions. And yes, I get that. But that is still to me preferable to the Rangers. He did say he respects everybody. Oh, yeah. So that's actually, as long as he said. That's the most generous thing he could actually say to it. You know, the thing I would just say is it's, you know, compared to the Rangers who, again,

I believe have got at least one player. if not more, or somebody in that organization that isn't comfortable with acknowledging and celebrating pride and does not have to face that at all. Doesn't have to answer a question,

doesn't have to have their name associated. Whenever you think of Ivan Proverov, for the rest of his career, this is going to be something that people think about when they hear his name. And I also had a lot of people say, well, you know, the Flyers aren't really committed long-term

to Proverov, and maybe the Rangers are committed long term to some of the guy. You know what, maybe. Maybe that is it. It's possible. Yeah, for sure. But I don't know. I mean, I guess at least he had to face the music in some minor form versus being hidden away,

which apparently, you know, is what the Rangers are doing and there looks like they're going to get away with it because everyone's kind of moving on to the next thing. Yeah. And again, this is the message from up top that, like, I think it's totally reasonable for the league as a whole to say we can't force players to do something they don't want to do in this specific case, you know, like or with regard to their beliefs or whatever. We had a question in the mailbag, and this was really interesting to me. On the Patreon, the mailbag was like, there's a guy that's like an Austin Matthews level famous. rugby player in like Australia or New Zealand or something like that who said I'm not wearing I'll see if I can find it really quickly but he basically said I'm not wearing the jersey sponsor that was a bank because my religion is against lending money with interest and and they were like you know what fair enough sunny Bill Williams a superstar New Zealand rugby player refused to wear a bank logo on his shirt due to religious beliefs about lending with interest.

He was allowed to play without the logo. The question was, how would the NHL and hockey Twitter react if a star player in the NHL refused to wear like a betting ad or oil company logo? Which is like a dip. But like, just in terms of, you know, you have to kind of take it, take it. things on an individual basis some of the time and make allowances even if you, you know, don't personally, because believe me, I'm sure that rugby league was like, fuck, man, we really like that bang, though. You know what I mean?

Yeah. No, and it's, look, and it's hard. And I know some people would say, like, you know, there's always a way you can, you can, there's always a place you can put the line. Yes. Works for any two examples, right? You can say, like, well, yeah, I mean, and obviously people come and say, well, what are you saying the gambling is the same as, you know, just living your life as who you are.

And no, but I guess that the concern that I always have is if you want the rule to be that we allow people to object to bad things and we don't allow people to object to good things, then who gets to decide that and keep in mind that all the people who run the NHL are rich, white millionaires. Yeah, again, I've said it a million times. to be the ones. This is the All Lives Matter League. No matter what you think about it,

like the league's philosophy on all of this stuff is going to be All Lives Matter. Or, you know, you got to look at it from both sides or whatever you, however you want to say. And that always gives deference to, I think, the minority opinion you would say. I think the majority of NHL fans are in favor of Pride Nights and that sort of thing.

You would hope. You would hope. And I mean... I honestly think that's true. Um, but the, but the minority on this particular issue is like, fuck that. And the NHL is going, we have to listen to fuck that. Yeah. And that's why the Rangers did it. That's why ProVrov got to do it.

And, uh, that's just how it's going to be. Like you, you can, I guess this is what I'll say. If you don't like the Rangers decision or Proverov's decision or, or whatever you want to say. You have some power here. You can not go to a fucking Rangers or Flyers game. You can not buy the $30 beers or, you know, or the, you don't need to buy that that next fucking Jacob Truba jersey you had your eye on. Like, it's voting with your dollar. That's the only thing that these people are going to listen to. So if you don't like it, that's the only thing you're going to be able to do to make that clear to them. And like, specifically

And even then, I mean, they're... Well, especially with the Rangers and the Flyers, like, you know, there's always going to be someone to replace you, you know? But, like, you've just got to raise a stink about it and see what happens. And if nothing happens, well, I mean, you tried. Yep. And I guess the last thing I will say is to, you know, based on the last time we talked about this, based on any time I've written about it, mentioned it, tweet it.

to the, you know, Fox News, brained mouth breathers who are going to show up in my mentions and yell at me and, you know, all that stuff. I don't care. I really don't. If it makes you feel better, go ahead. But I don't care. And, yeah, that's that. Yeah, that's right. So let's move on to the other thing.

Bobby Hull passed away. Uh-huh. It was very old. I don't have his age in front of me here. It was 80-something, I believe. Yeah, that sounds right. One of the best players of his era. Um, but again, like, uh, just like, like, seems like a really, like, deeply bad guy.

Yeah. Not a good dude. I mean, no. I really, I mean, not just one of the great players of his era, but hard to overstate what a superstar. this guy wants. Yeah, for sure. In not just hockey, but I mean, Bobby Hall is... Crossover appeal in a way that most hockey players

do not gain that. Could never get back to. I mean, Bobby Hall is one of those guys that if you, you know, we talked about all those American fans who, you know, maybe aren't all that into hockey. If you stop them and said, name some hockey players, it wouldn't take you long to get to Bobby Hall. And a guy who changed the game on the ice, how it was played, shattered records, you know, scored 50 goals a bunch of times in an era where few guys had

ever done it once. Yeah, kind of the ovechkin of his era in that way. Yeah, yeah. And change the game off the ice as well as far as the WHA and becoming the first million dollar player and the first guy to stand up and say, I'm going to get paid what I'm worth and not just whatever the owner. A super historically important player. Yeah.

Absolutely impossible to tell the story of hockey in that era or any era at all without spending a lot of time on Bobby Hall. And also an absolute garbage person off the ice by many accounts, including those of his own family. Yeah. And, you know, when he died, there were a lot of people saying, don't forget, this guy sucked. Like, don't do what the NHL is doing and saying, NHL all time great, Bobby Hall has passed away, all this kind of stuff. You got to say the stuff about, you know, multiple of his wives said he abused them. Yeah, like the ESPN doc in 2002 that, you know, contains some of that.

I mean, it's gut-wrenching stuff. I mean, not, yeah, it's just even in a world where we talk more about domestic violence and therefore we hear more about it, it's stunning. Yeah. What some of the accusations are there. And then the other thing with him that always comes up is the Russian interview where he was alleged to have said that Hitler had some good ideas and that the black population in the United States was growing too fast and other stuff. And there's two things worth pointing out on that. Number one is that he always denied it. He always said he was misquoted, taken out of context.

And there was... I'd love to hear the context. Now listen. Yeah. There was a, there was a, you know, in theory, neutral party at a like a translator for another publication who was there at the time, who backed him up on that and said that, you know, it didn't come across that way that, you know, that the newspaper sensationalized or never heard that.

Wow. That's interesting. But the other thing to know, and he did sue the paper and he sued other bits. So, you know, he strongly denied it. But the other thing to know is that his own daughter told ESPN that when she saw the reports of those comments, that her reaction was, yes, that sounds like something he would say. So even if that itself was not, you know, maybe, maybe those exact quotes weren't exactly what they were or meant in that way. but there are more than enough people in the hockey world who let's just say don't seem to think that that's you know you've you've heard people say

no he didn't say that to that at that place and time I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say no that's that is not something Bobby Hall would ever say right this was a guy of a certain era and he just sounds like he was a deeply unpleasant person. Yeah. The other thing to say about that, that daughter, who, who, you know, gave the quote about, oh, that sounds like him. She became a lawyer whose, like, whole deal is defending domestic abuse victims because of

her father and what he did to her mother and others. And even, you know, obviously, you know, famously the father of Brett Hall. but was absent. I mean, he was an absent father for many years after, you know, after one of his divorces. And, you know, he just wasn't part of his children's lives. And he and Brett were estranged and had since had reconciled and become seemingly close again. But, you know, this is, yeah, I mean, look, we're all complicated. We're all flawed.

but this was an extreme case of somebody who was just, it can't overstate the brilliance on the ice and the importance to the sport. But just sounds like he was... But that kind of feels like that should take a back seat. You know? I mean, it certainly can't, you know. And I've seen, you know, I mean,

every time this stuff comes up, you go in the comment section. There's people saying like, hey, he was my hero as a hockey player and that's all I care about. I mean Now you know me Sean I don't care about any guy Who played before like

1990 Yeah I'm just like Ah that guy doesn't matter to be I don't think about that guy So like I'm already on like on my way out Of uh caring about the whole Bobby Hull thing you know Um

But with that having been said You know like I said you do have to acknowledge His like place in the history of the sport It's very You know I don't know what the athletic had him at for like their their top 99 list, but I have to assume he was extremely high. Yes.

And so you got to acknowledge that. But also, if you're saying what he did on the ice supersedes in any way, the extremely bad stuff he did off the ice, I got to question like what your motivations are for, doing that basically. I would simply if you're somebody who loves Bobby Hall

but like Jesus Christ, man. I would just strongly encourage you to maybe question that and see if you could do a little better. Yeah, I do you know, look, I've said this before. There are plenty of athletes where I can or performers, actors, whatever.

I know Tom Cruise is bad, but like those mission impossible movies are great. What do you want from me? You know? I'm a guy who I think probably has a easier time than most separating the art from the artist. This is a fucking tough one to come back from to the point where I'm just like not going to do it. And even, I mean, there's separate the art

from the artist. You don't have to, you know, nobody's saying, take his you know, take the Black Hawk Stanley Cups away or anything like that. But you, you, well, I am. When somebody, yeah. When somebody passes away and you're going to tell the story of their life, you have to tell the story. And that's it.

I think this is me going out on the limb here. I think having like a long, long history of domestic violence and like other noxious views and all this kind of stuff, that makes it impossible for me to say, yeah, but I mean, look how many goals he scored in 1972 or whatever. Sure. Yeah. Oh, that's fair. It makes it impossible to me. I don't know what you want me to say besides that. Yep.

I think that's all we need to say. Great. Let's move on very briefly to a more pleasant topic, and that is the Oilers had an emergency backup goalie. Get into a game. Yeah. He's going to finish his career with a 1,000 save percentage. Yeah, kind of.

He technically was not an emergency backup, but we can all count. Wait, what does that mean? Because he was signed the day of the game. So he was actually their official backup. Essentially, it was an emergency situation. He got called in because I think it was Stuart Skinner was ill. And so he came in, but he signed a one-day contract and was officially their- Mac Berlin is the guy's name.

Yes, Matt Berlin. And so he was sitting on the bench as the backup. Oh, that's right, yeah. He wasn't, it wasn't like a Zamboni driver thing where they pulled him out. of the crowd because two guys got hurt. But it's the same concept. It's a guy who's not in the NHL, got to play in the NHL, and in this case got to go in because it was 7 to 3,

and they were playing the Blackhawks, so who cares? He played two minutes and made one save. Like I said, finishing his career with the 1,000 save percentage. Higher than Dominic Hasick? You can't do better than that. Guas, yep. The other thing is, so I don't know if you saw the quotes after the game, but they were like, we're going to put you in.

And he's like, oh, that's pretty funny. And they were like, no, like, start stretching. You're going into this game. Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah. Apparently it was Connor McDavid's idea. And he, they were up seven to two.

And I guess McDavid went to Jay Woodcroft and said, like, you should put, you should put him in. Put the kid in, yeah. And then they gave up another goal. And it was seven to three. But they still went. I guess he went over and said, like, yeah, the first stoppage after the three-minute mark, you're in. It would have been fascinating if they had, like, scored on the first two shots right away. Uh-oh.

But, yeah, they only got the one shot. I'm trying to find it very quickly. Do we know who took the shot that he stopped? Oh, you know what? That's a good question. I can find this really quickly. But, yeah. Wasn't it

It was Caleb Jones Wasn't it like a former oiler Oh see You're asking the wrong guy I don't know Okay But yeah

I love when this shit happens This is the coolest Let me ask you this Does it feel like we're getting more In the last like five or six years We're getting more ebug stuff Than we used to Yeah

It does Part of which was because You know back in the day goalies, you had to be really hurt. Like, you know, oh, my knee hurts. Yeah, okay. Finish the game and we'll, after the game, we'll be like,

oh, yeah, you tore your ACL. That's a shame. And also because they're more likely to put them in. Like, you know, we saw that with the, it's Carolina. Right before David Errors, there was, didn't, it wasn't it them who put their guy in. Yeah.

And part of it is also, you know, we hear more about it, especially after David Errors, like everyone's, who's the ebug? somebody got hurt, somebody left the game. Sure. We didn't used to hear about it. But yeah, it's, we're seeing more of it. You were right, by the way.

It was Caleb Jones. What a pull by you. Look at me knowing things. Yeah. But hey, if you can't stop a 51-foot shot from Caleb Jones, like maybe you just shouldn't even call yourself a goalie at that point. You know what I mean? Yeah, that is true.

But yeah, it was a snapshot by Caleb Jones with 48 seconds left in the game. So there you go. We all love the story. If you're like the Blackhawks, aren't you just a little bit like, oh yeah, we're just putting amateur goalies in against us for fun? Like I was that? Are we that team now? Teams don't tank.

Right. We can't even score against the guy who's never played professional hockey before. Forget it, man. Teams don't tank. That's true. No, teams don't tank. Now, one last question on this. Did you know?

And I honestly did not know this. that the oil, like everybody has their little, like, oh, you put on your fucking hard hat, you put on your fireman's helmet. You get your championship belt after the game. Do you know what the oilers one of these is? No, I don't because I paid no attention to that because I think it's stupid. I agree that it's stupid. This is the stupidest one I've ever seen, though. And so I feel like it bears mentioning. They give like a little motorcycle jacket out. Oh. Is it like, does the guy then have to walk around calling everything a motorcycle for the next 24 hour?

Because that would be cool. No, no, no. It's more like... Two motorcycles that clean the ice? Whoa. Whoa. Yeah, no, it looks like your sons of anarchy. Okay.

And I don't know. Like, I, now see, I, I, I did watch every episode of Sons of Anarchy, so I know what these guys went through to get their cuts. You know what I'm saying? And, uh, yeah, this is a tough one for me. That's, uh, yeah, that's every, I don't know. This is, you know what, let's not talk about it because nothing will make me sound like an old man more than complaining about how they have to put on a little costume. whatever? Yeah.

Every team has one. I think it's fun, but this is... Super fun and unique. We have a little party for ourselves every time we win a game. Yeah. Okay. Now, I guess what you're forgetting, Sean,

is these guys are all freaking millennials. They grew up getting participation trophies. Yep, exactly. In my day... Of course, they're getting little vests. In my day, when you had a good game, John Brofrey came in the locker room and hit you over the head with a baseball bat.

That's right. Should have been better. Fuck you. Yeah. Anyway, we'll take one more break and we'll be right back. This week's episode, Puck Soup is brought to you by RayCon and folks, it's the start of the new year. Everybody's making big changes, that kind of thing, which is all well and good. But most of the time, it's not always realistic either.

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Buyraycon.com slash puck. All right. One last thing, I guess we've got to talk about. We already have some new all-stars from the last time we talked about who the all-stars were going to be. You were correct that... It was half right. ...Centorna MAPle Leaf's center. Austin Matthews is going to be like, oh, I have a skin knee.

I can't make it down to Florida for this one. However, you were wrong. You thought they were going to replace them with Willie Neelander. I did. I think they made a better choice here. Okay. They named Sasha Barkov instead. That works.

Yeah. By the way, A-tier All-Star for me. Sure. That's a named guy. Everybody knows who Sasha Barkov is. The entire point of the All-Star game, as we've learned over the last decade, is to make the hometown fans think that all their players are the best. So congratulations to Barkov in advance on winning MVP.

But no, that's perfectly solid. pick. No, no objection. Nope. And the other one is Maddie Baneers of the Seattle Cracken. He's out. He has a concussion. So which Seattle Cracken replaces him in this league where there must be, we are told, one player from every team. Yeah. The answer is the famous guy from the Seattle Cracken, Chandler Stevenson of the Vegas Golden Knights. Oh, I missed a trade. Okay. Yeah. And this is, And this is, I'm being, I'm being a wise ass, but they clearly, Seattle's already on their buy. And clearly, they just didn't have anyone who wanted to go to the All-Star game.

Everybody else is at Disney World, right? Yeah, they're like, you know, they call up Vince Dunn and they're like, hey, All-Star and he's like, yeah, I'm in Hawaii with my family. So, screw. I would think it would have to be a forward just because. What is? They don't, it's three-on-three. Who cares what the, I don't even think they really balance that. I thought they

I thought they did pretty much Maybe not anyway Point being Yeah like you said So as they have Eric Carlson He really is a forward He's not a defenseman The way he plays in his own

Doseone Yeah He doesn't even cross-check anyway Um No but uh It like you say It was just a situation where The league waited until

Seattle was on it's by and everybody was on vacation. Yeah. Hung up a gone fishing sign outside their dressing room. Exactly. And so nobody from Seattle wanted to go. So they were like, what about Chandler Stevenson? He's having a good year.

It does feel like they went pretty far down the list to get to Chandler Stevenson, didn't it? Like, he's a good player, but I don't feel like it was like, oh, there's no one from Seattle called Chandler. Yeah. Well, I think the other thing is there are a few guys from Vegas, for example, who are hurt, who would otherwise be going. You know, Mark Stone, Jack Eichel, both those guys are hurt right now. So you can't call them.

No. It doesn't have to be a Vegas guy, right? It could be anyone from... It could be anyone from the Pacific, but like, I don't know. Again, I think Jailor Stevenson is having a pretty nice season for himself, honestly. He's going to finish north of 70 points in all likelihood. So, like, he's a good player, but with that having been said, DT your All-Star, no question about it. Like, the fifth most famous guy on his own team, maybe, Eichol Stone, Petrangelo.

Yep. I'm going to say Robin Lainer from everybody who read the story about the snakes. Mm-hmm. You know? Probably Carlson and Marsh, so too, although that's debatable. That might be more with the locals. Yep. And like the real sickos like us who remember the golden misfits era.

That's right. For four years ago. Does that not feel like the Vegas Golden Knights have been in the league for like a decade already? It does. Absolutely it does. And so, yeah, I don't know. Again, like I saw a lot of Seattle fans getting mad about this and I get why, but like, I just, what do you give a shit, man? Well, it's, yeah, I mean, you can get mad about it, but this is one of the few times.

I'll defend the league. I guarantee the league asked every Seattle player who had an even plausible claim to all-star status. You're like Morgan Geeky. How do you feel about it? And he's like, me? Really? I guarantee Jared McCann was asked. I guarantee like all.

And they were just like, no. And understandably, right? Like you're a player. I'm on vacation. The wife and kids are like, are we going anywhere on your one break? and you, oh, well, I got to wait and see on this All-Star thing. What? I did make the team.

Great. We're booking. We're going to Hawaii. It's a water park. You're looking at, you know, pictures of your kids. And then the phone rings and they're like, we need you to come into work. And you're like, screw you. I booked it off.

Get someone else. 100%. Like Brian Elliott, a few years ago, they pulled them off a beach. But most guys are not willing to do that. And that's absolutely fun. Yeah. And if you're Chandler Stevenson, you're like, I'm never going to get to go to the All-Star game again. Yeah.

You know? So, like, I totally get why he would. Maddie Baneers, there's a guy who's going to be an All-Star for, especially if they're doing like the one player from every team. Maddie Baneers will be the representative for Seattle next season if he's healthy. Yep. You know, it's that simple. And, you know, it kind of feels like this is going to be the last time we see like Sidney Crosby at the All-Star game. I don't know.

Hasn't it felt that way for a few years? Yeah, I guess that's true. I don't know. Just like the way, like, you know, I saw the quotes about, from Ovechkin specifically being like, I'm not taking this for granted. It's great to be an All-Star, all this kind of stuff. Which kind of says to me,

next All-Star break are going to be sitting at home ice in my knees, you know? Yep. It's tough out here for all Alex Ovechkin these days. I looks like he's 50, you know. What do you want? So, you know, like, like I say, I get why a Seattle Cracken fan would be mad about all this, but

were you going to watch the All-Star game and be like, oh, I hope, you know, I can see the four minutes from Maddie Benegro. Apparently, that's what the NHL tells us. That's why we have to have these weirdo all-star teams with players from every team. No, I'm saying

if you're a Seattle fan, are you, like, are you upset that like nobody else from Seattle went because, like, in the way that you're upset, You didn't like that trade for the Islanders? They got a poor of that, you know? Like, is it just the Homer thing, or were you really like, damn, I can't wait to see Maddie Baneers out there?

He's going to be in a jersey with black, white, and pink. That's crazy. And I'm going to do... I don't think anybody actually thinks that way. I'm going to do the Leonardo DiCaprio point at the TV thing every time he gets the puck. There he is. That's the guy I watched. Okay.

Relax. I mean, there's Connor McDavid. You can be excited about him, too. He's good. there he is. There he goes. There goes. Oh, he's just scored.

That's right. Wow, he really blew past that defenseman who is like reading a book and not even remotely. You know, okay, let's talk about this too. People always say the All Star Games sucks because no one's trying really hard. That's right. That's not why the All Star Game sucks. The All Star Games sucks because, like, there's no reason for them to try hard. They're going to split 100 grand.

or whatever the number is. What's the number? Is it like a million dollars? It can't be. It's like a million, but it's not enough that it's... Yeah. Right. Like, these guys are gonna, oh, I guess I'll put that in the bank.

Like, this is spending money for me, you know? That's right. So, like... But what's the alternative? Like, you can't give them something to play for, could you? Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, so that, like, if you're going to say the All-Star game sucks, because, like, there's just never been...

an all-star game that's good by that token. Well, the guy pointed at the goal once and then he scored. There has been though because like there's trying as in like I'm blocking shots and throwing hits and all of that which I mean maybe back in the black and white era

they played that way. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like here comes Connor McDavid. I'm going to attempt to at least get in his way so that when he goes around me it's a highlight and not just like him skating around somebody who's not even trying. And when Connor McDavid does deak me out and he goes in alone on the goaltender,

I would like him to actually shoot and not circle back and make 14 passes because nobody wants to actually be the one to shoot. Like the nobody tries in any All-Star game, but some sports, it works better. Like in baseball, you can go at half speed in baseball and it's still because the name. Yeah, because like the pitcher still has to throw at 95 miles an hour. And all of that. And but hockey. That's the only, that's the ball star game that works.

Yeah. NBA, it's okay. Hockey and football, I mean, football is already scrapped theirs. They don't even do it anymore. I'm just saying that like if these guys tried a little bit, just try a little, like, put your stick in the way to try to block the pass. And that way, if the guy makes a saucer pass over your stick, it looks cool rather than just it looks like it's these two guys are. Yeah. I guess that's the point, right?

Like, in an NBA game where there's absolutely no defense and the guys are just fucking around, that's still Steph Curry pulling up from half court for fun, you know? And it's still incredible that even a guy who is not being defended can hit a shot from that far out. Or, you know, like a guy going up for an alley-up, I'm just fucking around out there. I'm going to throw it down fucking Tomahawk style. You're still like, boy, that kicks ass. And it ends up being like 190. to 180, but you're still like that's fine because most of those scoring plays were like these guys aren't driving the basket and trying to make a layup, right?

Like these guys are for the most part fucking around and hitting, you know, 603s and over the course of the game between everybody, right? And threes are fun. Whereas in the NHL, again, this is just kind of like a function of the mechanics of the sport. you've seen basically every way a guy can make a one-timer at this point. Yes. So who gives the shit? I don't know. But I guess my thing is like, you're right.

The All-Star game does suck. I do like to see the guys fuck around and try to like, you know, go between their legs or whatever. But like even that we see in games all the time now. McIruch like scores multiple between the legs goals every year at this point, basically. So, like, I don't know. I guess I'm of two minds of it on it because I just like, I'm so sick of people here and go, they don't even play freaking defense out there. But also, like, they don't play defense.

But like, I don't care about the outcome of the All Star game either. At least it's three on three now. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't, you know, this is one of those things where it's the quality of play in the All Star game is irredeemable. So just enjoy it for all the other. other things that it is. And just like don't talk about it. Just like take it as a

given. It's got you're gonna like if you're if you want to see defense like this isn't the fucking game for you. This feels personal. This feels targeted at this point. You know what it is? It's again like I feel like I don't hear about this from anybody under the age of 50.

You know? Back in my day they used to try in the All-Star game. I bet if I went back and watched the like 1984 All-Star game there was just as much fucking around. But like, I don't know, Dave Semenko was out there. Also, it was 1984, so it was hard to tell. What?

They're like, look, that goal tender isn't even dropping down to block shots. Well, actually. Right. Yeah. That hadn't occurred to us yet. Don't we always say, oh, I want more scoring. Oh, now there's too much scoring? Okay.

These guys want to have their freaking cake and eat it too, I guess. Yeah. And plus every year. year there's like that one because they the three on three it's like this mini tournament there's like always the one game that's weirdly one nothing for some reason yeah just like what the now those guys are all that's the one game where they're all trying yeah that's the one game where i then complained that there's you know too much trapping there's just not enough scoring at these all-star games make the nets bigger at the all-star game uh yeah it's for kids and sponsors folks

i don't know what else to tell you this is correct yeah so that's it nothing else Once again, you are correct in your analysis. Me? That doesn't sound right. Okay, Sean, why don't you hit him with the plugs? Find me at the athletic hockey show with Ian Mendez. You can find my written work there, including, as I've already discussed, my big Gary Bettman look back and why the way the judge Gary Bettman is not based on what he did, but on what could have been and how much better this league could have looked.

in the last 30 years with different, and I would argue better leadership. Yeah. And then for me, EPRRinkside.com, use the code I Love EP when you sign up for an annual subscription. You get three months tacked on to the end of your 12-month subscriptions.

15 months total for the price of 12. And this week, you know, we should have talked about this on the show. I guess we can talk about it in a second. I have already written about boy, it feels like there's a lot of guys who have like a legit claim to at least be an MVP finalist, even though we all know McDavid is going to run away with the award. I just think it's cool that there are so many guys where it's like,

you can make a legit case for that dude. Yep. In a way that there hasn't been in recent years. And then later today, they will be posting my first, every year I do, I grade every trade in the trade. like around the trade deadline, just a grade for both teams. But we were like, oh, we kind of got to start it a month early because of the Horvat deal. So I did the Horvatt deal.

And I did. Thanks, Bo. And I, whatever. I was going to have to do it either way, right? And I did the Matt Nietto trade. Okay. This is going to shock you. I was like, oh, I guess I don't care about this trade.

Good. Wow, they got Martin Cout for him. Whoa. But yeah. Let me get your thoughts. We'll close out the show on this. Let me get your thoughts on just the MVP field with the caveat, of course, that Connor McDavid is going to win in a walk unless,

and I think I said this in the article, including if he gets hurt and misses the rest of the season tomorrow. Wow. Yeah, he's certainly getting close to that. Yeah, no, and I read your piece, and it was very good, as always. And you're right. It's almost in a way, unfortunately. that Connor McDavid is being as good as he is this year just because it is depriving us of what could be an excellent.

Yeah, if he was only on pace for 50 goals and 130 points, people would really be able to talk themselves into, well, look, I mean, David Pasternak, Jack Hughes, H. Thompson, whatever. Yep. Okay, so let me ask you this. Do we agree that Connor McDavid, you talked about if he gets injured, if the Oilers miss the playoffs? Like, it's still Conrad David. Again, I said this in the article, but there are not enough Greg-brained people out there to sink his candidacy. He's, again, he's going to clear, in all likelihood, he's going to clear 60 goals comfortably, right? Like, we've had three 60 goal seasons in the salary cap era, none more than 65.

I believe McDavid right now is on pace for 67. And also 150 plus points. I think it's like 151.5 or something like that is his piece right now. Absolutely ridiculous. If Connery David showed up tomorrow and was like, it is against my religious beliefs to accept the Hart Trophy, please vote for somebody else. Sure.

Who are the other names? I think David Pasternak is basically like locked in as a finalist. Yeah. He is also scoring at a ridiculous rate, and he's the best player on a team that could be historically good. Yes. And was their unquestioned best player early on when they were missing a bunch of guys with injury, and we all kind of thought maybe they would fall off?

And then, so I think Pasternak is like clearly going to be a top three guy. two, three, I guess I'm not super committal on that right now. I'd lean two right now. But then you have Jack Hughes, who's having a monster season, right? Jack Hughes, Jason Robertson, be another one. Jason Robertson is the best player on a very, very good team, for sure. I think you could, like I said, Tage Thompson, I think you can make a pretty comfortable case for it, just because he's leading a surprisingly good team.

team in scoring, they might make, I don't think it's likely, but they might make the playoffs. And if they do, a lot of people are going to be looking for a heart trophy. And he'll be the guy. Him or Dallon would be the other one, but I think it's... Dahl, yeah.

I mean, how often do defensemen win, right? Not often. Yeah. And, you know, frankly, like, if the sharks were better, I'd have Eric Carlson in this conversation. He's having an unbelievable fucking season. He's so good. Yeah, he and Matthew

You, Chuk. Great seasons on bad teams. If Florida could get, I mean, if Florida gets back in, Kachuk will get a little bit of consideration. Yeah, for sure. And again, defensemen don't win this award. Goalies don't win this award, right? And so, like, we said it last week.

We said it earlier today. Ilya Seroquen, there is a guy who should be getting MVP consideration because he is keeping this team out of the lottery single-handedly. Right? Like, he is having, like, the runaway Vezna season at this point. Like, I think he's really, in the last three weeks, distanced himself from, from Soros and Hellebuck in a way that is kind of, like, ridiculous almost.

Like, he's so good. But speaking of Hellebuck, like, there's a guy who's on it, the jets have kind of hit the skids a little bit in the last few days or whatever, or last few games, I mean. But he's, He's the reason the Jets are where they are in the standings right now, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously, they have other players having good seasons, but, like, you know, he's, I think over the last five years, you could say he's been the best goalie in the league. And then there's U.S. Isisaros, again, like, the predators are bad.

I think a guy, good goalie on a bad team. Yep. But he's awesome. He's so good again, you know. So, like, again, what did I just name? Seven, eight guys, something like that. Yeah. And all of them, it's like, oh, no, like, I can, so, there's a lot of times where it's like,

some voter put that guy in its top five. And didn't mention Nikita Krujura, didn't mention Miko Renton and Adafox is, you know, up there. At a box is having a great year. Like, and look, like, obviously, like, basically all these players have players who are also really good, McDavid has dry-siddle. Pasternak has Bergeron or Allmark or McAvoy or Marshand. There's like three or four guys on the savers that Dahlene and Jeff Skinner are certainly among them.

Hughes has Dougie Hamilton and Ego Heeshire having great seasons. Hellebuck has, you know, name a couple of forwards on the Jets. You'll come up with some pretty good ones. Robertson has Pavelski, Ottinger. So, like, Heiskenen, so like, you can just go down the list and all these guys have good supporting players. But I think that just the fact that we can name like eight or nine guys and go like, that guy should legitimately get MVP votes. I think that rocks. That's so cool.

Yep. Oh, it's another very cool thing about this season. That's what I'm saying. Like this year more so than other years feels kind of special in a way where like we're seeing all these teams do these unexpected things. We're seeing these players potentially like shatter records and that kind of stuff. Like I think it's awesome. I think this has been a really fun season so far. I agree.

Yeah. All right. That's it. Oh, the other plug is patreon.com slash puck suit. You know that story by now. Go to the Patreon and see all the bonus stuff. got there. There's a lot of it every month. So yeah, that's it. Thanks everybody. Have a good one. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.