Puck Soup - Jillian Fisher

Episode Date: February 1, 2019

Greg, Ryan and Sean reunite to talk about Pierre McGuire's embarrassing man-splaining of Kendall Coyne, the NHL All-Star Weekend, what Columbus should do with Artemi Panarin, who should be the next Batman, whether bubble teams should buy or sell at the deadline, Lambert's best and worst of Spain and the places you'd least like to be stuck with Pierre McGuire. Plus, hockey video sensation Jillian Fisher joins the show to talk about goofing on teams, NHL overreaction to comedy, Gritty and the intersection between sports and society. Brought to you by Seat Geek!

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Greg Wichinsky of ESPN. I'm Ryan Lambert from Yahoo. Hello, I'm Sean McIndue from The Athletic. And you're in Puck Soup.

Now remember, boys, you're being paid for this. So don't act like a fan. Don't you act like a fan tonight. You're being paid. If you need to know, the microphone is here, the laptop is here, and don't act like a fan. You're being paid not to act like a fan tonight. Greg, can you promise me that you'll protect me in case anything gets too hectic out there on this podcast? You got it, Ryan.

I'm going to be your cage tonight. I'm going to be your cage to protect you, Ryan. Awesome. Don't worry. Let's all awkwardly touch each other. Yes. Yeah, underrated part of the Kendall coin Pierre McGuire relationship in the last several days is the weird ass grab her by the waist to corral her for an interview move that he pulled during the All Star game, which was, you know, and taken within totality of the events of the last 24 hours would make this all the more creepy. we are of course talking about the Pierre Maguire thing that happened this week with Kendall Coyne

in which she was invited by NBC to be between the benches, I guess it is. And he had an interaction with her in which he told her which bench the penguins would be on, which bench the Tampa Bay Lightning would be on, and then said, just remember that you're here tonight to be an analyst and not to be a fan. Very cool. And then later on, as Lambert mentioned, said that he would be her cage to protect her while they stand between the benches. It's been exciting. It's overwhelming.

I'm so excited to join you here. So Tampa's going to be on your left. Pittsburgh's going to be on your right. What are you expecting out of this game? We're paying you to be an analyst not to be a fan tonight. Yeah, I'm excited to see Tampa start. They've been off for 10 days. Heaven had a game.

Pittsburgh, on the other hand, had a tough loss on Monday. Got a little bit blown out of the water by New Jersey Devils. So I'm excited to see the start tonight. Let's have a blast. I have a lot to say about this, so I want to open the floor to you two first. Yeah, so I was in Spain. I didn't see any of the all-star stuff at all. So, like, you know, I got a couple emails saying, oh, did you see about Rihanna Decker and all this kind of stuff?

and I had to say I hadn't, but I didn't even hear about the Pierre waist-grabbing incident or whatever we want to call it until I got back and saw the, like, included in the fallout from last night, or I guess Wednesday night. Right, right.

And that shit is wild to me. Like, it's just the thing about, like, oh, you know, we talk about women's hockey in a very condescending way or whatever, like made manifest, you know, where he's like, okay, sweetie, we can definitely include you in the broadcast, but just so you know, here's what icing is. Like, are you going to be shitting me, dude? Yeah, don't treat her like a Predators fan. So, yeah, what did you think, Sean? I mean, I always try to give people the, the benefit.

of the doubt. And I think there's, there's an argument to be made that, look, he wasn't being condescending because she was a woman. He was being condescending because she was between the benches and that's a spot that most people have never been. And therefore, you know, he would have potentially said the same thing to anybody else who was down there for the first time. And, like, maybe, like, if, if that's the way you want to go with it, I can see it. You. You know, But it was very clear that it's a freak. Like, he's just a really awkward freak. Yes, exactly.

And that was one of the arguments in his defense is that he was, he's just socially awkward. But to further your point, though, like I think part of it could also just be a defense mechanism. Like I said last night, there's somebody between the benches. They're going to be doing my job. And it's entirely possible that they're going to reveal that anyone can do this job. So I will put them in their place as an amateur in order to put myself over as a professional. And in the process coming off like a sexist. just anyone. This is one of the greatest

women's hockey players of all time. Right? And like... Yes. Right. So he's like, oh, yeah, you're between the benches now. Usually you sit on one of them when you're not scoring a shitload of goals in gold metal games or whatever. Like, that's the thing that drives me fucking crazy

about it is it's like, dude, she's one of the best hockey players in the world. Like, still, today she is. Yeah. So, wait, so, Sean, do you give... So you, I understand you give him the benefit of the doubt little bit. I try to. And I try to, you know, look at it and say, okay, maybe he's, you know, like I said, he's being condescending because

she's a first time broadcaster. And it's, it's a hard job, you know, and it's in his best interest to make it seem as hard as possible. And maybe, maybe that's it. So I, I get that. But even then, it's very clear he didn't give a moment's thought to how this could be perceived or to how, you know, he was going to approach this, this interaction. And so even if you want to look at it through the rose-colored glasses and assume that he had no bad intentions, you know, it's clear that it never occurred to him that maybe he should, he should put a few moments of thought into how he was going to handle this so that he doesn't come across in a way that would immediately make every woman out there go, yeah, I recognize what that's like. I've been talked to like that. I know

exactly what's going through her head right now. Right. All right. I have a couple things to say. Amongst the reactions that I got last night when this came out, mostly from people between roughly 11 and 73 followers, which I think is interesting. I don't know where these people usually reside on Twitter or how you manage to not, you know, collect more than that. But that's neither here nor there. People are just looking to be outraged. No, legitimately, I did not settle in on Wednesday night, thinking to myself, what will Pierre McGuire do to infantilize a professional women's hockey player making her debut as an analyst? I did not just kind of sit there and be like, I need to find something to be angry about. As with most things with Pierre McGuire, it just sort of happened.

One of the other responses I love is, oh, it's just Pierre, no big deal. He's just like that. Yes, I'll take things we say about our racist uncle for $500, please, Alex. Like, come on. Absolutely. That's one of the worst excuses. She wasn't being talked down to. Take the same exact actions, but replace her with a guy, and it wouldn't be a problem.

Everyone is too, quote, but hurt about this whole ordeal. That's the fucking point. If you remove gender from the situation in which a prominent active professional female athlete was invited to be a guest analyst by NBC during a men's game and then was treated like a fucking moron fan girl by a male network analyst, the context would in fact change. It would be different for a guy. This is exactly true. Yeah.

Genius. Has Kendall Coin, this is, has Kendall Coin reacted to what Pyram McGuire did yet because hers is the opinion that counts most. And I'm betting she had no problem with it. That's, that's the Mark Madden response, the super genius from Pittsburgh. who never saw a snowflake he couldn't put on his tongue or anything else. This is, of course, acknowledging that the system is gained. Right.

It's completely gamed. Like, she'll have no problem with it because if she did, then she'd be the one getting all this shit people like me are getting. You're a fucking snowflake. Fucking saddle up. Fucking don't be a fucking baby about it. You know, so she's not going to say anything about it because who would invite that shit.

And then on top of that, like, she's kind of looked. at the big picture here. Like, she's on NBC. You know, if she does a good job, there's a chance there could be more shit for her. A.J. Molesco has gotten shots. Other women's players have gotten shots. Like, there could be the potential to parlay that into future stuff. So what is she going to do? Fucking take a run at the executive producer Sam Flood's guy, the guy he believes invented the between the benches thing. You know, what are you going to do? Go after the fucking golden child? You, out of your mind? So people have to kind of advocate for her here. And then finally, and this is the thing that bugs me the most, like, when Kendall Coyne participated in

FASTA skater, it was all good vibes. It was like literally barriers being broken down and setting example and people, you know, putting videos up of their young girls getting on skates for the first time because they were inspired by her. And it was the kind of thing that you want at a hockey. And last night was the fucking opposite. Like, it was a moment where women watching the game saw what they always see, which is like a man inherently believing that, no matter what their experience with the sport is. And again, like Ryan said, a five-time, double IHF world champion, a gold medal winner,

and a current professional fucking player in a current professional fucking league that no matter what that experience is, that they're not going to be treated like a peer and equal. And that's all I saw last night was a guy who literally said to a professional athlete standing in the box with him, somebody currently playing hockey, someone who took part in the skills competition, someone who is a gold medal winner all of last year and said, don't act like a fan. Could you fucking believe, like, is he ever saying that to goddamn fucking, you know, Paul Bissonette or somebody?

No. It's not going to happen. Especially because half the fucking guys on the NBC broadcast are on the payrolls of actual NHL teams while they're also on the national broadcast. Eddie Olchuk does Chicago games. Foresland does Carolina games. Yeah. Keith Jones does flyer games. Like, they're all either fans of teams,

like Jeremy Rona crying over Chicago winning the Stanley Cup, right? Or they're, like, on teams' payrolls. And, like, this is a thing maybe people don't really remember, but several years ago when the, I think it was the Lightning was, trying to be bad. They did the thing where, like, the Flyers, I think, did the thing where they were making fun of the one-three-one and, like, passing it back and forth between the... Yeah, it was the Flunger, yeah.

And Keith Jones goes off on, like, oh, it's a disgrace, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, you work for the fucking Flyers. You don't get to talk shit about this, dude. Like... Right, and that's part of the equation is that, like, you literally have somebody in Pierre McGuire. who 95% of the time is standing there fucking fillating the penguins telling someone else not to be a fan on the broadcast. Like that is, like take, if you want to take gender out of the equation, take gender out of the equation.

You have a goddamn shill telling someone else to act like a professional during a broadcast. It's fucking insane. It's insane. There you go. Anyway, so I'm sure. I like it. I am fired up. Because as you know, like, Pierre McGuire is my bitch eating crackers.

Like, he is the person. For those unfamiliar with the meme, it's a thing where, you know, you, someone annoys you so much that if they were just sitting there on their own eating a sleeve of Ritz crackers, you would look at them and be like, look at that bitch eating crackers. Fuck that bitch. And like, that's the meme. And that's how I feel about Pierre. Like, there is nothing that that man does that doesn't irritate me.

And I know that my Pierre Rage definitely plays into my feelings about this thing. But I also know that my Pierre Rage is born from him doing this fucking shit. Like, I don't know what else has to happen for him to be removed from the between the benches thing. When the totality of the hockey world says, this thing that you keep foisting on us is hurting my enjoyment of your product. And they're just like, I don't know. He knows where they all play junior. Let's put him out there again. So, I mean, this goes back to my thing about the NHL knows that, like, the people who watch this shit.

Like, you're going to watch fucking hockey, regardless of who's on it. I watch every game on mute. Or moot. Or moot, yeah. You know, like, all the shit he says about who plays junior, that's what moot. Like, who cares, dude? But it's one of those things where I watch it on mute, you watch it and get pissed off. And like every, this is true of every other hockey fan.

The NHL knows people who like the NHL aren't fucking going anywhere. So they can go, oh, fuck it. Who gives a shit? Yeah. That's true. I mean, it's, and you know where that step? You know what the best example that is? The lockout.

But they literally canceled the season because they knew that were a bunch of crackheads who are going to come crawling back. And we did. And we did. Right, exactly. And they were right. So, I don't know, man. Last night was a rough one.

And yeah, woke, snowflake, social justice warrior who gives a shit. It's about a guy treating a current professional athlete who, by the way, is much more accomplished than some fuck who coached 67 games for the Whalers once. And, oh, I'm sorry, and led them on the greatest Western road trip in the history of the franchise. Let's not forget about that. Like, treating her, like infantilizing her in front of the nation, telling her where the benches are and don't act like a fan. fuck you. Like, like, you just fuck you for doing that. It is embarrassing as a, as a male sports journalist to have somebody who should be a fucking torchbearer for this industry treat Kendall Coyne like she's a, she's a fucking amateur on the airwaves last night. Fuck you. That was

embarrassing. Um, less embarrassing was the All-Star game. I liked it. I know, I know that the all-star game itself was a problem because John Gibson decided to throw the game. and deprive Sharks fans of joy with his performance. I will go to my grave believing that. It's always better when the local team has a rooting interest in the final game. But I thought the product was the right. It had enough moments that I gave a shit about. And then the skills competition outside of the mininets and barriers bullshit,

I thought it was fine. I liked it. Sean, did you like it? Did you like the All-Star shit? You know what? I've kind of given up on getting mad about the All-Star game. and, you know, it was fine. I don't even remember which team won, you know, a few days later, but it was okay.

There were a handful of memorable moments. You know, we'll remember the Stamcoast between the legs goal and the McDavid, the save, the glove save on McDavid. You know, the All-Star game itself at this point, we've been over this. It's, for whatever reason, the players have decided it's not worth. even minimal effort, they just go out there and glide through it. So given that, it's as good as it's going to get unless that ever changes. And, you know, I've seen a couple people made the point that if the game happens to be close,

especially the final, with some money on the line, if it's 5-5 with five minutes left, maybe some of that competitive instinct kicks in and these guys crank it up to like a two out of 10 on the effort scale. But we didn't get that, unfortunately. So it wasn't great. I don't think it was a good average. advertisement for the game. But at this point, it's as good as it's going to get. The skills competition was better. The women were the biggest story. Thankfully, there wouldn't have been a lot to talk

about coming out of it. We have to get rid of that stupid mininets event or change it. Like, I don't know who this is for. Let me push back on that. Let me offer devil's advocate. Because I, as you might expect, I was running around San Jose, screaming at the top of my lungs, get rid of the minnets. I heard Gary Bettman himself. I actually liked the minnets. He likes the event because it is an exhibition of skill in a way that maybe other skills competitions art. So, like, if you aren't, so if you're like a hockey nerd, you're like, wow, the accuracy of these passes is incredible.

Look at them hitting the mininets. Look at them carrying the puck over the light up barriers. Like, they see it as sort of like the most skillsy of the skills competition. But what is the skill? There is no, like, you don't shoot the puck into a mininet at any point in a hockey game. You don't pick the puck up on the blade of your stick and lift it two feet in the air. And even if you, okay, you know what, if you want to see this stuff, can we at least change the event so that you have a certain amount of time to do it or a certain number of tries

and then you just move on? Because leaving some of your biggest stars to just drown out there for two minutes, which feels like two hours, is just, I mean, who is benefiting from this? The players are sitting out there looking like they're trying to start. swallow their own tongue so that they don't have to do this anymore. The fans are dead silent. Nobody understands how the scoring works or what is, you know, anyone's trying to accomplish. It's like, I don't understand who that event is for.

If you want to have something involving, you know, the long distance passing or whatever to show off a skill, go ahead. But, but please change it up because that was just, that is just death, that event. And it has been for a couple of years now. So, you know, the rest of it is at least. simple and straightforward enough that you can get into it. But geez, that one is just a mess. Did you miss the All-Star game in Spain, buddy? Well, I didn't see it if that's what you mean. No, I mean, like, you know, I think the All-Star game is fine. Like, I don't care that they don't

try. Like, that shit doesn't matter to me. But with that having been said, it's definitely a thing of, like, you know, there are ways to make it more interesting. I think the three-on-three tournament's good, but, like, the reason people watch All-Star Weekend is for the skills competition. And, you know, from what I understand, it just kind of wasn't a very good skills competition this year. So, you know, are there ways to fix that

by getting more people involved, like, from... And this is the thing I've advocated for for a while now that the NBA does, is they just go, well, who do we need in the slam dunk contest? Let's get all the guys who are good at slam dunks and not just like make Steph Curry try to dunk or whatever. And so, yeah, go out and get Dylan Larkin to go against Connor McDavid and like all the fast guys and all the guys that shoot hard, like Shea Weber and Zadano Chara who weren't like maybe those guys won't want to do it because it fucks up their vacation or whatever. Yeah.

But. But here's the thing with that, because I like that idea in third. theory because it can also allow you to, you know, for example, have Shea Weber, which means you don't have to have another Montreal Canadian invited to the weekend, which means you can actually have all-star rosters that look like all-star rosters. But I feel like people forget that the NHL did this for a few years. They actually used to have like every team would do its own skills competition and then the best scores. And the thing is, the problem with it is sometimes you get Dylan Larkin and you get Zadano-Chair and Shay Weber. And sometimes you get guys.

that no one has ever heard of who happened to win the competition and they, you know, they, they shoot 106 on some teams jacked up radar gun. And then suddenly they're at All-Star Weekend and you're like, who the hell is this guy? And you can just hear the TVs turning off everywhere, right? Where it's like, this is your All-Star weekend. And I mean, I know we all want to see Paul Byron destroy Connor McDavid and Fastest Skater, which apparently according to the Montreal media, he would do. But I don't think Paul Byron is really moving the needle on your star power very much. Yeah, but like, again, so I think that on some level, yeah, you're right, like you don't

want some team to just dial up their radar guns so that they get like three guys in the hardest shot contest or whatever. But, you know, it is a thing where it's like, now, dude, I just want to see people do cool shit, you know what I mean? So, like, the guy who can, like, has a, doesn't have to be necessarily. quantified. So you get a guy who just like has a reputation as this fucking amazing passer. You get a guy who, you know, oh, he's got the best wrist shot in hockey, that kind of thing. And even if it's not an elite all-star talent, a guy who's really good at doing one thing, like that can still be a participant who, you know, it's like those streetball guys in like the and one contest where it's like, well, that guy would never make the NBA, but he does cool shit with a basketball. So let's go. Yeah, and I think the thing about the Paul, the Paul Byron sort of argument is if we're using the NBA as an example, like, I wouldn't know who the fuck Craig Hodges is outside of being an ancillary part of the Chicago Bulls championship teams, but I knew him from the three-point shot competition. And like some of the guys that were in slam dunk back in the day, like I knew them because they were in slam dunk and did cool shit.

Yeah. A slam dunk is a very specific skill that involves a level of creativity. Three point maybe to some extent. If we're talking somebody to come in and get an extra 0.3 miles an hour on a slap shot, that nobody watching is going to be able to visually detect. And that's, you know, I like that event. But every single time, this guy skates up, he shoots, I go, oh, that looked like the hard shot. And then they tell me the score.

and I go, okay, sure, I just take their word for it. That's right. It could be a random number generator hooked up to that thing. I have no idea. Maybe the way to do it would be, you know, maybe you need to, you know, kind of find a middle ground where instead of just letting anybody do it, you have a couple of, you know, whether it's commissioner's pick or maybe you make it the captain's pick, maybe it wouldn't really be. But you have it. So Austin Matthews is allowed to say, I put the call out to Shea Weber and he's going to, you know, we're bringing him in. So that you don't risk that like suddenly you're, you're.

You're looking around going, oh, crap, Ron Hainzy had the hardest shot, and now he's got to bring this guy to the altar. You do it, you do it by reputation. You don't do it by like. Yeah, which is not how they used to do it. They used to do it by the contest. So, right. No. Reputation would be.

That's what I'm saying. So, like, you know, does the Dano Chara still have the hardest shot in the NHL? I don't know, but he's probably top five. So let's fucking give him a call. How about this? If you win a competition, if you win the skills competition, you earn a lifetime invitation to that. that competition. Yeah.

I think the NBA did that. I think the NBA and slam dunk did that. If you win once, you're always invited. So that's a good idea. I like you. I kind of like the idea of trying to make this more of a jocular, like I choose you, opponent type thing. But my concern is twofold.

One, these are the same guys that didn't want to do the fantasy draft anymore because Phil Kessel got embarrassed that one time. And two, it might be one of these things of like, You know, our hearts in the right place with the, oh, let the first seed pick their playoff opponent type thing. And then they always just pick the seed they would have gotten anyway. Like, I feel like there's a certain amount of humbleness and humility. Well, that's why I think you'd prevent these guys from really get into it. It would have to not actually be the cat.

Like, I mean, the league would kind of go to Austin Matthews and be like, we want Shay Weber and Dylan Larkin. And he'd be like, okay, whatever, I don't care. and then they would put out a press release with some made-up quote from Austin Matthews talking about how he called up Dylan Larkin. And like I feel like something like that could maybe work. But I still, I've never watched the skills competition

and been like, you know what? You know what's keeping me from really enjoying this is just slightly different competitors? Like I still feel like it's just in general. Like two things. First of all, could we find a way to somehow get this eight minutes of action? to take less than three hours?

Like, do we really need the 45-minute break between every event and the constant interviews with all the players and this and that? And the other thing is, because anytime I even start down the road of complaining about the Ulster game, I always have people tell me,

they're like, dude, it's not for you, it's for the kids, it's for the kids out there. I have an eight-year-old. He didn't watch a minute of this because the skills competition did start till 9.30 at night, and he's not staying up until 12.30 to watch, you know, I understand it was on the West Coast and, you know, that's an issue.

But if we're going to make it a kids event, like, can we not be running the final at 1030 at night? Maybe. Maybe do it in the afternoon like they used to. If you're going to do it for the kids. One of the more underrated, for me, the best event by far, and it's weird to say this because this is not in any way, shape, or form their game, was the goalie event. Like, the save streak competition between Vasilleschi and Floreski and Floresy. Lurie and all the other guys, I thought it was like the most entertaining thing. Lundquist winning was great. Like, Lundquist stopped Stamcoast, Tysk, and then stopped Tavares to win the event.

Like, there's an actual narrative slash storyline involved in this thing. It was super fun. And they think, one of the most low-key greatest things about the All-Star Skills Competition was they let the goalies pick their own songs and pick their own music to hear while they're making these saves. Devin Dubnick, who admittedly, I've probably thought about. out in my life less than three minutes. Picked a remix of all the way up by Fat Joe with E40. Then he picked E40, rather. And then he picked Sicko Mode by Travis Scott.

I want to know more about Devin Dubnick now than I've ever had based on his musical choices. Like Jimmy Howard picked the Bee Gees. And Devin Dubnick over here is like, oh, I totally want Sicko Mode to be my music as I make saves. The dude from Minnesota. I'm fascinated by this now. Nice. All right. I do like that. I just, and again, I'll be the, I'll be the sour puss here. Like, I like that there's an event for the goalies, but it's kind of like, here's our skills, it's our best of the best. Here is 10 of the most skilled hockey players on the planet, all taking breakaways, uncontested shots, and all getting stopped. Yay, skills. And you're like,

All right. Yeah, good, good job, Henrik. I don't know. It's, it is whatever. Like, last thing I'll say is those jerseys sucked, except for one. The Florida Panthers logo actually was improved in black and white, I felt. It was a pretty sharp looking jersey. Oh, also one thing that hasn't gotten enough attention, media day was held in what can only be

termed a independent wrestling arena. It was like in the, you're in the middle of the, you're in the middle of the, these sort of seats in like a shrunken baby arena. And so the NHL's idea was to make their media day more like Super Bowl Media Day. They invited fans. They invited sharks to season ticket holders, but true to form, they must have not told these season ticket holders until 15 minutes before the event, because hardly anybody was there. But it didn't stop then from bringing out the players, like they're introducing them at a wrestling event, blaring music, hype man, whatever. And the problem became this.

Like, it's media day. Like, we're all, our companies are all paying for us to go fly out the fuck out there and talk to these guys about, like, the CBA or the World Cup or even ask them goofy shit. But we have a job to do. That's why they call it Media Day.

And so, like, while I'm standing there trying to talk to Elias Pedersen, this, you know, soft-spoken, 20-year-old, what-have-you from Vancouver, in the back of me, it's just like, Ladies and gentlemen, Isaac is sad as a new investment Brent Burns And this poor

This poor fucker in front of me is trying to talk to me And like he's stopping and starting And stopping and starting and stopping and starting You know We're five minutes into this like timed segment For an interview Because we only get a certain amount of time with him

And like he's still not getting his words out Because the fuckers in the crowd are chanting Let's go sharks Like, it's insane to me. Like, what are you trying to do? Like, I know what they're trying to do. They're trying to make it the NFL. But until you get comedians walking around asking Bill Belichick questions with a hand puppet,

you know, don't do this. Just let it be a media day for the media. Yeah, finally, someone in the media goes off about how the media is being unfairly treated at a fan event. And another thing, they should open the locker rooms much earlier than they do. We've got deadlines. By God. We get to talk to the reps. This is bullshit.

All right. How was the food? Did they at least give you like some good? They didn't take your donuts away, did they? You know, we fly all the way here to cover your Stanley Cup final. We don't do it so you give us Cedric Paquette, okay? You don't give us Cedric Paquette on a game day. We're the fan's eyes and ears.

The only way that you would find out. That's the best shit. That's my favorite shit in the world. But no, all I could think about when you were talking about that, like I didn't really listen to what you were saying because I was just thinking about Sandman coming out and hitting Eric Carlson with the Singapore cane.

Yeah. Pouring beer into Ilius Pedersen's mouth. It was so awkward. I mean, like, here I am talking to Johnny Goodrow and all of a sudden Saboo, uh, jumped from the top rope and hit Taz behind me. I couldn't even believe it. And, you know,

on top of everything else, you try talking to Claude Juru, Walto, and Wai who was dancing on top the ECW Arena. The greatest thing ever about ECW was the fact that it was on in New York at like 2.30 in the morning. And it really felt like you were seeing something dangerous. Like you see something that you shouldn't be seeing when you would stumble across ECW on television. Yeah, just TAS, superplexing guys onto their neck through a table.

Like, by the way, one thing I did get a chance to watch in, uh, in Spain was the Royal Rumble. So. They have WWE work over there. So it worked out. But anyway, yeah, like... Yeah. I don't know. It's, like I said, it's obviously all just, like, a thing for the sponsors, just like the Winter Classic is.

And, like, I long ago kind of just accepted, like, yeah, they're going to make you do a bunch of shit you don't like, like, as a hockey fan or a hockey reporter or whatever. And, like, you're just going to kind of have to go with it because, like, it's not for you. Yeah. By the way, one thing on the Rumble, they're going to fuck up mania and make it a three-way with Becky Lynch and Rousey and Charlotte Blair. I don't think so. I don't think they will. I hope they don't do it because it should be just Becky against Rousey. And by the way, for those if I haven't seen it, Rousey had the most interesting Monday night ever because she gave probably the worst promo in the history of wrestling.

And then later on, it took part in one of the best promos they've ever had in the last like five years, high. the mania match. Like, she literally got in Becky Lynch's face and said, you know, I could murder you. And it was real and it was great. So I highly recommend people search it out. And by the way, if you want to go see the Royal Rumble, the NHL All-Star game, really any event boys, use our friends at seek geek. You know, getting tickets online can be very, very complicated with hundreds of sites and

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Seek Geek purchase. Seat Geek, Life's an Event, and we had the tickets. We have a guest this week, boys. It's Jillian Fisher at Fisher Gillian on Twitter. She does those really, really funny videos where it's sort of like she's playing all these different roles and giving out team report cards and doing funny things. But I found out that even more importantly, she is a sports anthropologist who studied the intersection between sports and culture. So we get into that as well. So Gillian Fisher, ladies and gentlemen, on Pug Soup. Jillian Fisher makes funny videos.

You've probably seen some of them and maybe not known that it was her, like the one where she made all the banners for all the teams after Nashville raised their infamous regular season champion. Spanner and also the hilarious mid-season report card one where she was talking to different versions of herself. The first question I had for you is, how much is your fucking budget for clothes? It's been coming up so much. And it's starting to get to me because I'm like, I swear I don't spend that much money on clothing, but like I kind of do now that I think about it. I've been collecting the shirts for five to six years now. So what I used to do, I used to do something a little bit different in the sports realm, which I traveled a lot for. And I'm always a fan of wearing the home teen colors wherever you go because you get a more authentic experience and more likely to meet people.

And I'm an anthropologist, so that's why it really fascinates me to do it that way. So I collected them over time. And when I switched up to doing videos, I was missing a couple. So I went on Amazon and I just purchased, like, I think it was maybe five or five. shirts on Amazon for pretty cheap and completed the collection, except for Pittsburgh. I do not have a Pittsburgh shirt. And that's for religious reasons, right? Because you're a Flyers fan?

Yes. I said, my mom might disown me. She does not take these things lightly. Like, we came back from New York City one time, and we had a shot glass thing that had, like, four shot glasses in it, and it had a Yankee shot glass. I shit you not. She went outside and threw it and broke it. I was like,

hell no so when I went to Pittsburgh I wore a yellow shirt and she was, I know you fucking didn't. Like she's really serious about her Philly sports. Yeah.

If I was to purchase a penguin shirt, she would have some very serious problems. I understand that vibe because like when I was a kid, I actually collected Major League Baseball hats and they were like meshback hats.

I had a whole, I had a thing. on my wall where you clipped in the little nub on the top of the hat into like a clip and so you had all of your American League your National League first of all horrible fucking idea because it stretched the hats out to the point where like you're a cone head but I didn't have a I didn't I didn't have a Yankee hat because I was a Mets fan and I'm like why I don't a yeah don't want that poison in my house and B would never wear it so what's the point so I just left them off so I understand that vibe now there are certain things yes there are certain lines you can't

cross. You as a Flyers fan is interesting because you obviously have a extraordinarily wicked sense of humor. You obviously have a bit of a delightfully cynical worldview. Is this all from being a Flyers fan when it comes to hockey? I would say a lot of it is because of that because I didn't recognize as a child that in general, Flyers fan too, had a reputation. I didn't know that.

I was young. You know? It's like, it's like somebody who has terrible B.O. Never knows they have B.O. Others have to tell them

that they have B.O. It's the same thing as being a Philadelphia sports fan. Yes. You learn it. And I just remember getting outside of Philadelphia and people being like,

oh, snowballs of Santa, which was before my lifetime. But like, you historically know that knowledge. And then you just, you slowly learn. I'm like,

oh my God, we suck. But it becomes a part of your identity. Other people, when they tell me our fans suck, I'm like, how dare you talk shit about Philly? I will fight you. But, like, internally, I'm like, yeah, that was a fucking... Right.

We shouldn't, yeah. Yeah, you're a Philly fan with some self-awareness, which puts you maybe in, like, a 5% demographic for Philly fans. But it's good to be self-aware about these things. Now, all right, let's get into the videos, because I know people are curious that are fans of years. How did they come about when you start to start? doing them, what were your inspirations for them? And was it Steve Dangle? Steve Dangle definitely has, I would say, just in general in the hockey landscape,

motivated a lot of people. Right. For me, I failed at a lot of other shit. So, like, that's, you know, like, I failed that thing. And it's fine. Failure is, like, a terrible word. I know you shouldn't use it, but I was passionate about a lot of things. And then I learned that they either weren't for me.

Like, I was really into doing, like, disaster. management and response. Whoa. That wasn't for me. Yeah. Wait, do you mean like, like FEMA kind of stuff? Yep. I worked on the disaster action team for the Red Cross.

So like if somebody would burn down. Yeah, I was very, very into that. Wanted to do that. But I, maybe when I'm a lot older, I could do it. But right now I think I'd be too per- I learned I'd be too personally impacted by it. Like I can't. It's too emotionally, yeah, too emotionally crushing. You know, it's like working in an emergency room and

taking home those feelings each time. I get that. Yeah. So when I was in college, I went to anthropology. I studied sports, and I really wanted to share the cultural significance of sports. And I was just so passionate about it, but people weren't receptive to it. But I knew that I wanted to be a helper in some way, and I knew that I wanted to tell stories in some way.

So I just found a way to adapt to still do that. So for me, I'm still telling fan stories, whether it's just me talking to myself or not. I'm still doing that and telling their story in a way. And if I brighten somebody's day by making them laugh or they can escape the reality for, you know, two minutes and 20 seconds, then to me, that's more than enough. And I'm having a lot of fun doing it. Concept to posting video, how long does one of these things take? Because if you haven't seen the banner one, go check it out right now.

Pause this bullshit. it and go check it out. Because you literally created props, like prop banners for the video. I imagine that one probably took longer than some others. But then I watched the mid-season report card one. And I'm like, well, this is a bunch of wardrobe changes and cutting and things of that nature. And I imagine that took a while, too. So how long does one of these things take to create?

It varies. It definitely does vary. I say it's an average of 8 to 15 hours from like the concepts to writing the script to editing the script to setting up a shot list, filming it. And then what's nice is in the editing, like the post-production, with any of the skits, I have had to have thought about that beforehand. So it's a lot of just, like, plug and chug, like, making sure that the cuts, the jump cuts are done for actually.

So, like, fun fact, it's called, like, a J-cut and an L-cut where, like, they overlap a little bit. I've learned, I have learned so much about editing. I would say a year ago, this would have taken me, like, 30 hours. but just learning through doing all this, I'm able to speed up the process of editing. So that's, like, the best part about it. It's like when everything's said and done, occasionally you'll see something like,

yeah, that didn't make sense, or that joke sounds terrible, or I delivered it horribly, which is usually the case. Like, I've delivered it poorly, and I'd have to cut up and find a way that it makes something make sense. Well, because I'm talking to myself.

Right. I respond to myself. I'm like, why did I respond that? That was bullshit. Cut it. Right, yeah. But as I've been doing it more, I just started doing it in August, really, these kind of videos. And the first one I did, which was like the every NHL fan of this off season, that was a long time.

That was a very long time because I had really never done that before. So I was like, how do I make sure that like Toronto and the islanders aren't sitting in the same spot? And I was just a fucking idiot about the whole thing, like, had to refil it. I made lots of mistakes. I was like, I need to make a shot list if I'm ever going to do this again because I will, I will die if I had to do this any other way. So I've kind of gotten the process down and it's really fun for me to like have this concept and bring it to life. It does suck when it doesn't happen because I did one for the whole Uber situation. It was like what your team says in their Uber.

And it just failed. Like it was. Why did it fail? How did you fuck it out? So it's really difficult to film something in a car that way And the lines I'm trying to talk to myself in the car And, you know

It was just like two-way variables And a couple of the lines were just falling flat And then people started getting sensitive About like the situation Like you know, this isn't my proudest work I think I'm okay scrapping it this time Wow But I really try not to

Because I'm still pissed that that one didn't work Because I love that concept I got to admit, I got to admit, this is the first time I've ever heard of anybody creating a bit for the internet and then not posting it because it didn't work. I feel like there's so much shit. Myself, anybody who's created a Photoshop, like, it all ends up there. But you have this incredible skill of self-editing and self-awareness to not put shit on the internet. That's pretty impressive. I don't know.

I don't know. Some of it is shit. Like, some of it is like, oh. But, like, and it's the worst on, like, somebody copy. comments on it and they comment about the thing you were looking at. I'm like, dude, you're right. Like, I can't even argue because, like, but we're all, anybody who creates anything,

you're super self-aware. You're super, you judge yourself harder than anybody. Yeah. Every video I put out there, I'm like, there are about 30 things that I think I could have done better. So, you know, but the Uber one, I was like, ugh, it's just, it's, nothing climbing was all off, though. So now that you've done a few of these sort of collections of teams,

kind of videos and, you know, you're poking fun at people. Like, have you found certain fan bases more or less receptive to your brand of humor? Yes. National tends to love it. They don't really ever get sensitive about any joke I make about them. Every joke I've made, they're like, yeah, that's kind of true. Or, like, do they embrace it? Vegas is pretty good.

I would say any of, like, I hate using the word non-traditional hockey market, but any of those kind of markets, like Tampa's pretty receptive. the islanders usually are receptive but recently they've been really coming after me well it's this weird thing that happened where like everybody I was just going through this

today with somebody an Islander fan about predictions or whatever and like everybody in their mom in every country in every language in every publication all predicted the Islanders would suck this year and then they didn't and that's great but now you get these fucking Islander fans that are kind of

comment after you about your prediction, which was, again, part of a mountain of predictions that all said that they were going to suck this year. And instead of being like pleasantly surprised or being like, hey, you guys got it wrong. Hubbillah, hubble a wink wink. It's this vitriol of fuck you for not knowing. And I'm like, where is your prediction guy from Nassau County? Like it's not, it doesn't exist. So I completely agree with you. It's, it's this weird thing where they should be sort of like happy that things have turned out correctly for them and happy that all of these things are happening and that they're going to be the darlings of the league,

especially if they like play the capitals in the first round of the playoffs. But it's become this sort of just like, and I guess it's like decades of angst and anger about not only the way things have worked out for their franchise, but the way the franchise has been treated. Like it's just become this giant fuck you moment, and I'm not quite sure why. Yeah.

And that's what I said. It's just like every time I say the word Islanders, I feel like this angry mob is coming at you. Great. I should not. Somebody came after my dogs. Like they were like, I mean,

like, dad got me. Like, anything, I was like, what the fuck? No, hold on.

Do you mean, do you mean, like verbally or like a John Wickway? No, like they, it was in my DMs, and they were like talking shit

about how my dogs probably hate me. Like, who the, who the fuck does that? Wow. Yeah. That's the kind,

that's the kind of shit the NHL said to keep John Scott out of the All-Star game. This is the kind of things that are being said to you. Oh, God. All right.

So Angry Islander fans are dealing with, that's understandable. Anybody else give you shit? I would say from there it's mostly just like one-off. Like, yes, people in Montreal tend to give me shit, but also people in Montreal love it. Right. Pittsburgh is really receptive, which is really funny because he would think they'd hate me because I'm a flyer fan. And most people kind of pick up on that. Like, most kind of fans are the first people to be like, yes, she's.

doesn't have a, like she has a cartoon penguin on a yellow shirt. She's clearly really. Right. Because it burns your skin, yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. The biggest thing that happens are fans get sensitive when I don't include their team in every video,

just because until recently, Twitter only allowed me two minutes and 20 seconds. That's all I had. Wow. I just got switched up on that. But when you're trying to make a video that's very different. dependent upon other things. Like, I would love to include you, Buffalo. I would, but, like, I can't always include you.

So, Buffalo tend to jump on me when I don't include them, and the New York Rangers tend to be like, why didn't you include me? But every irrational fan, there's a rational one next to them. Yeah, I mean, the Rangers thing is understandable, because that's just entitled. That's like original six entitlement, but Buffalo, you'd figure by now would be, like,

We were forgotten. It's just for Buffalo, but apparently, same thing. You get Jack Eichol and Jeff Skinner together, and all of a sudden you feel like you should be the fucking top story and everything. All right. Yes. Where do you want these videos to go? What's the end game for it?

Do you want to get hired by the NHL and then not be funny anymore? So I actually did make a video with them. You might have seen it. Oh, so the Silicon, okay, so the one, so the NHL did sort of the Silicon Valley one you're talking about, right? Okay, Silicon Valley. opening. Oh, that's the one I thought you did in conjunction with the NHL, but what did you do with the NHL?

So, it was the day before the season started. We made a video where it was like if NHL fans or if hockey fans held press conferences, and it was the day before the season started. And I have to say, like, the person I worked with was a delight to work with. He was really responsive and everything. It was just, it's very limiting when your humor is making fun of the NHL. and making fun of team. You know, like it's a very fine line

that's difficult to work with. You know, when you can't say the word catfish, it becomes limiting. So they were delightful to work with, but it's just... Hold up. Hold up. Pause. Pause. You couldn't say catfish

because they were worried it was going to encourage fans to throw catfish on the ice. Is that the deal? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Jesus. You'll notice none of the people involved

in this podcast, have ever done anything for the NHL either. There's a fucking reason for it. So welcome to our world. It's tough. It was very difficult. And, like, again, the person I worked with was a delight to work with. Right.

They have a vested interest. So it's, well, ideally it'd be great to work for the NHL to get money. There are plenty of other ways on the Internet to make money. Right. So, and, you know, I don't like to say, like, oh, I want to do an influencer campaign. But it would be great is to find. somebody who values what I value and have some type of partnership. That would ideally

be the goal. Right now, that's still far as far away for me. And it's important for me that I wouldn't lose the ability to say what I want to say, to be able to poke fun and be able to, you know, make a joke about the Ottawa senators.

You know, that's part of what is funny. And most of their fans appreciate that because they need something to laugh at. You know, most of fans aren't getting sensitive about that. So, you know, I Ideally, it is to make money in the age of the Internet that is possible. It just takes time and a lot of hard work. Yeah, which you have.

The NHL things, like, I think, I don't know if I told this story before in the podcast or not, but like when I was being, I was being recruited at one point, but by NBC to run their hockey blog and thank God they did because they really increased my price tag. The miracles of negotiation. But when I was there and then we were talking about me taking the gig, you know, One of the things I said was, all right, well, you're a rights holder. So let's say I'm going to write something about Gary Betman. Like, how do we work that?

And they're like, well, whatever you write about Gary Betman would have to go through XYZ, these editorial processes. And there's a very good chance that the commissioner would have to see it before he gets published. I'm like, wait a second. Are you telling me that if I wrote a criticism of Gary Betman and what he's doing for the NHL that Gary Betman himself would have to sign off on it before I'm able to post it? Do you have any fucking idea what that would read like? It would read, you know, it would read like,

it would read like one of those documents that the government puts out when they're talking about UFOs, and it's just black lines, and then the word weather balloon. Like, that's what the story would look like if the NHL had oversight over my shit. But so, it didn't work out. Yeah, no, I can imagine. Because it's like, just listen to how that sounds. Like, I'm trying to do a critique, and it needs to go by

and be run through the person who I'm critiqued. Like that's right now. This doesn't make sense. And it's like a journalism one-on-one thing. Like people, our interview subjects all the time are like, can I read the story before it comes out? We're like, of course not. You can't read the story.

You'd fucking ruin it. All right. Let's talk about you. So you did a cultural, what is it, anthropologic study D.L.E. About how society and sports intersect. Yeah. What did you find out? How do they intersect?

Do they intersect well? Is it poorly? Should, should sports? sports and society be different? Are they mirrors of each other as our good friends Bruce Arthur and Dave Ziron have told us? They have, I mean, we don't like to hear it. We like to think of sport as just this sacred spot where, I mean, you know this. We like to think of sport as this sacred area where nothing else matters,

but they are very closely related and they both feed off of each other. And the way I was looking at it was more at the micro level, rather the math. level, like how does sports in America impact America? It was more of like, how does hockey in Nashville shape the city? What does that, how does that impact the city? Or how does, you know, football in Seattle reflect of Seattle? Or, for example, why does Philly love the player like Mike Richards, but not Jeff Carter? And I'm maybe not like things like that.

that was more of what I was looking at when I would travel and it was also like I would do it in Australia and Japan and all these places around the world and it was more of that micro level and fandom in of itself because that's fascinating weird yeah if that fandom in general is this really fascinating thing it's it's really like an abusive relationship almost when you think about being a fan like they put you through hell you you know you always say so it's always next year is kind of like a bad high school romance honestly and it's but you can't most people can't separate their fandom from their identity which is why then looking back at the macro it's why most people don't want to think of sports and society being so closely linked because then it starts

to attack their personal identity so right yay you know this is why people on the internet get so mad i think a lot of times about sports because they don't want to have to look at themselves in any way, shape or form. Right. And also because their joy or sadness is informed by the joy or sadness of the team. And that sort of thing, too, which is a different sort of set of addictive problems. I find it interesting, though, like in your looks around the world, you take a place like Nashville, for example, there's no question that at this point in Nashville's maturation

as a franchise, the city in which they play has informed that team and that team's marketing approach. They started off as being like we're selling hockey. Now they're totally like we're selling Nashville to Nashville. Is that the same way around the world? Do you find that teams sort of take on the characteristics of their city in most other places or is that a uniquely American thing? There's definitely that part of identity wherever you are, like whatever team you root for, you feel like there is a personal identity attached to it, wherever you go. In America, it's really, really distinct because we're such a large country. I haven't been to Russia, so I can't speak for Russia. But in a lot of other countries, like you have the UK, you have

Australia. Even though Australia is a large country, the majority of their sports teams play very, very closely to each other. So like in Melbourne, there are like five teams. In Sydney, there's multiple teams. They still have this identity. Like Collins were, Collingswood in Australia is the equivalent to the Philadelphia Flyers, the way everybody else in the league, views them. Like they think of them, like they have terrible fans, all this stuff. But I would say the main difference besides like the geographical aspect of it where in America you're so far apart. Like a fan in Texas, Texas is like its own country. California is its own country when you think about how different America is across the board when you go versus when you go to the UK,

which is much smaller. The other thing in America is that the way ownership works and the way teams can move is just so, so different. That doesn't happen anywhere else. It doesn't happen in most other countries because the team is never going to move. Right. It's not like Manchester City is going to relocate to another spot in England. Yeah, exactly. Right.

And like while a team like the Golden Red Sox are never going to move or the New York Rangers are never going to move. And there's lots of teams like that in the NHL that are never going to move. It's still a part of that private ownership where fans don't have an actual part of the ownership, whereas in a lot of other, like in Australia, the city kind of owns the team. Like the fans themselves have partial ownership of the team, which is kind of like Green Bay with the package. So it's just, in America's sports are just so different than the rest of the world. And that's why it makes it so much fun to study it in America because a fan in Nashville,

you're going to get, there are similarities, don't get me wrong, but you're going to get such a different experience than if you go to Vancouver or if you go to San Jose. It's just so fun. And everywhere you go is a completely different world. Have you found that other countries use sports as much as we do as a microcosm of society, or is that also uniquely American? No, I would say that's a, in most countries I would say that I've been to, it is very much similar to how we do it in America. It's just different, different sports. So in Japan, baseball is huge. It's definitely a microcosm of their society at large. In Australia, they have rugby and the AFL. And like, when you talk about the AFL with them, it's like you're talking about Australian values. And just the same way you would think about how, like, people talk about the NFL, you know, it's a can of worms that we could open there.

Right. It really, to that, a lot of people reflect their values as a society when they think about sport. So it sounds like you have at least a tangential appreciation of the Canadian identity tied up into hockey as much as it is. Oh, my gosh. Again, that's a can of worms. But, yes, there is such this, and I don't, I don't mean to throw shade in Canada, but there's this entitlement that the fact that any American could be better than any Canadian, because it's such a part of their identity. So when you are saying that, and you're talking about their cultural values, you're talking about multiple layers of being Canadian there. And whether it's on the surface level or it's, you know, tacit versus explicit is another conversation.

but it's yes I have a great I have a great appreciation for it right no it's it's no different than someone it's literally like if somebody came to an American and said you know there's this guy over in I don't know where it'd be Poland and he's better than Bob Dylan and you're like that's fucking impossible Bob Dylan is a unique reflection of the American experience there can't be someone in Poland that's better than Bob Dylan and they're like but he is and you're just like But no, our cultural identity indicates that Bob Dylan could only be a product of the American experience. And it's the same thing in Canada.

I've always felt that same way about Canada. Canadians can't understand someone else being better at this thing because hockey is a cultural extension of themselves. 100%. And it gets frustrating because on the Internet context has no place. There's no such thing as context on the Internet. So when you're going to have a rational conversation, it's just impossible. to do most of the 99% of the time. So it does get to be like, I don't want to get angry about it because I understand it.

But at the same time, I'm going to be fucking angry about it because you're being exactly. All right. Let's talk about another part of hockey identity, which is that you are a women's hockey fan. You're heading to the NBHL All-Star game in Nashville. How exciting is that going to be? Well, one, we were just talking about Nashville. It's an amazing place to go.

But I can't think of a better place to celebrate women's hockey than Nashville. So I'm very, very excited about it. That's awesome. And then you are, I saw you were also tweeting about, as we do this podcast, it's the week after the All-Star game, Kendall Coyne and being in Fastest Cater. And you're like me in the sense that like it's great that this happened and everything, but the shit should have happened years ago. Like there's no reason why Hillary Knight and Ray Philippe Poulin couldn't have been in the

shot accuracy competition. Like even if your greatest fear was that women couldn't keep up with men in a fast skater competition or whatever, they just fucking stand there and shoot it circles. There's no reason why that couldn't have happened by now. I think what's interesting to me is

again, and go back to like the cultural aspect of it. Like we're taught culturally what's interesting in sports. You know, it's why cricket is huge in India or in even Australia, but it's not huge in America. We learn through our values

what's important. So if we were to, if we really wanted to break it down, yes, at some level there are differences in each of the sport. That's just what's going to happen. But if we were to value it, we would learn that it's equally as exciting. And there's different parts of it. Just like hockey and basketball can both be exciting, but in different ways, there's no reason why women's hockey and men hockey can't be exciting in, you know, similar but different ways. It's just, it's ludicrous to me that's like we still are having this conversation. I can't believe that's what's having to say these words. Let me pause you on that one because

I see I've always argued that there are two different sports in some ways right and and that if you if you're a fan of the national hockey league and you go to an WHL game it's going to look like hockey but it's not an NHL hockey and you can't but you shouldn't judge it based on you should judge

it based on its own merits and not compare it to the men's game but there are but there's a lot of women's fans that are like that is the wrong way to approach it and are insulted when it is treated as a different sport, maybe because they assume different equals lesser, and that's never my contention. But I think that sometimes it can be interpreted like that. So it's sort of a dangerous road

to go down when you start talking about it being its own animal. And it's frustrating because, you know, it's like you can never win sometimes. Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, you can never win on the end of the night. No, not at all, never. No, else all the time. There's, yeah, like, even if you take soccer, you know, women's soccer is probably the closest to men soccer, like when you talk about sports like that are similar, but there's

a difference in it, right? There's still small differences. And for me, in hockey, you know, the game of hockey changes. If you look at hockey 20 years ago, it's a totally different game than it is now. But we still love it. We still value it. There's no reason why you can't take a look at the differences. It's still hockey.

It still is. It's just not the same as what you think, when you think of the NHL playing a game. It's the NWHL. How do you tune in to the MLS and expect to see the NHL? They're different. They're literally different leagues. So, yeah, I can appreciate them. I can say, this is exciting for this reason, and, you know, this is exciting for that reason.

I love the sport. I love watching athletes compete. I think anybody who's been competitive knows that they want to win. You know, they want to perform. They want to do the best they can. And, you know, I don't like the argument that they need to be seen as the exact same, because then you're setting people up for terrible expectations. They're not the exact same.

And there's nothing wrong in that. There's nothing in terms of wrong with that. We're not saying one is superior to the other. That's not what we're saying. And they're not the same because we actually win gold medals in one of them. So, I mean, that's the distinct difference. I mean, we're probably going to go there. But, yeah, our women kind of dominate, so, you know, respect their guys.

Right. Last thing. You are a Flyers fan. You are a sports humorist. Are you ever fascinated that the Flyers created something as funny as gritty? Because again, like of all the teams, of all the teams to create a Google-eyed fun mascot that does goofy things and is endearing. Not only like, well-liked, but endearing. The fucking Flyers. It probably pisses people off, right? It has to. Of course it does. They hate that feeling. They couldn't have been. some other city. It had to be stuck in Philadelphia. Right. The only reason it didn't totally shock me when I first saw him is, do you know the Philly Fanatic?

Yeah, of course. The Philly Fanatic, I don't know if I've ever told this story, but when I was a kid, I wore a Mets hat to a Philly game at the vet. We sat right on the field. I was fascinated by the AstroTurf. I'd never seen AstroTurf before. And I was wearing this really beautiful, like, vintage Mets hat. It was like dark blue.

It kind of looked like what they were. wore in 69 and the fanatic fucking snatched it off my head from behind me then climbed over where we were sitting onto the field and then stomped on it in front of all the Philly fans

and I, you know, and then he put the flattened hat back on my head and I'm like, there was no part of me that was sad about this. Like I was a badge of honor, but yes, I am very familiar with the Philly Fanatic. As you could see, some without you. I think we,

break that aspect of our reputation you have to like the part of the identity if we're not assholes who are we so I think that the whole thing was gritty the turning point for most people on the internet was his sassyness online

but for me I saw the fanatic I saw him he's weird he's a very strange looking thing he has a similar ability you know he has a weird tongue that comes out of his trunk or whatever the fuck you want to call it so it's like You know, I was kind of used to weird mascots that kind of are slightly fucking terrifying and kind of awesome, like that you want to still like hug.

I don't know. It's a really complex emotion, but it was nice. I didn't think Philly needed a mascot. I am so happy it was this season because it is like the one bright spot of like the dumpster fire and harder heart. But mainly gritty is the right of the season. So no, I'm not surprised. But I think that's only because I, you know, in Philly we grew up. with the Philliesinadic.

Exactly. All right. Where can people find your stuff, Jillian? I have one last thing. Do you remember the time that I made you kiss a catfish in Nashville? I do. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that was also a badge of honor moment.

Like, you know, it was one of those deals where by no means am I ever going to shy away from anything put in front of my face to kiss. but in Nashville especially it seemed wholly appropriate to do so. I don't know if I I want to say that the photo exists somewhere on Twitter of me doing it right?

Or was it video? It does. There is a photo that I'd be happy to share with you again. Oh, for sure, yeah. Definitely the world has to see it again, yeah. No, it was a delightful moment.

It was so national. I just didn't know if you remember because I thought about that. Wow, that was a long time ago. It was a long time ago. Yeah, it was a lifetime ago. I totally remember it, and I remember thinking at the time that I was really, really happy that the Red Wings hadn't made the final that year. No, it's quite all right.

All right. Now that we've taken this trip down Pescatarian Lane, where can people find your stuff? Yeah, everything is at Fisher Gillian, so Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, all Fisher Gillian. Where do you need the most followers right now to make money off this, so people can. and go sign up. That's a tough question. Twitter has, I just recently got an email about an ad campaign for Twitter. So go to Twitter.

All right. Facebook, but also go to Facebook. I mean, I get a little bit of different things on each. So go to Facebook as well. Yeah. I mean, Russian stuff aside, go to Facebook and support Jillian because she's really funny. I don't encourage the Russian side of it, but like, can you help me out? Like me.

Help me out. Awesome. Well, you're awesome and your shit's hilarious and thank you so much for appearing on the stunt podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. Our thanks to Jillian Fisher for joining us. Please do check out her stuff on the Graham and the Twitters. And really, wherever she's going to end up getting paid because that's important. Before we get back to hockey, I want to mention that Ben Affleck is done playing Batman.

Matt Reeves, the Batman, which is going to be a. New Warish Batman as a detective film will be coming out in a couple of years ahead of the next Suicide Squad movie for some reason. And, but Ben Affleck, who I thought was really good as Batman, at least in Batman versus Superman before he didn't give a shit in Justice League, will not be Batman. Ryan Lambert, I ask you, who should be Batman? I mean, I guess it depends on where they want to go with it. They want to go with a Batman between the ages of like 24 and 30. and they want him to be more of your dark night detective than anything else. Hmm.

All right. Uh-huh. All right. I'll give you mine. Yeah, you go, and I'll think of one. I'll get on the, I'm going to get on the Oscar Isaac train. Might be a little bit long in the tooth for the roll. But, like, give me Oscar Isaac as a tortured Bruce Wayne and as the bat.

Probably a little short for it, too, and then I think about it. gives a shit. You can play around with that. Tom Cruise has been an action hero for the last 30 years, and he's like, four foot one. So Oscar Isaac would be one choice. And then I'll go off the grid a little bit with a guy who I think has blossomed into a fine actor. Not his native tongue, this role, but I still think would be very interesting in it. How about Robert Pattinson as Batman? Could you see that? Well, yeah. I could definitely see that. I think I want to say a movie I just rewatched recently, Mad Max Fury Road, Nicholas Holt, who plays Nucks in that, and is in a lot of really, like he was Beast in the X-Men.

Oh, he was Beast in the X-M. No, but that's okay. Is he allowed to do that? Of course he is. Fucking human torches Captain America, for God's sakes. They're all a little route to have a second act. Yeah, I'd love Nicholas Holt as, as him. And, like, the problem is that basically anybody you say is just, like, a Game of Thrones guy or a guy who's on Outlander or some shit.

That guy on Outlander, yeah. Right. And, like, I think there are any number of, like, because you can play Batman so many different ways, right? If you want to go tortured, like, yeah, Oscar Isaac. No, there's only one way to play Batman. And this is the way. the people of Gotham want to hear Batman. Yeah, like, I just don't want, like, millennial Batman, you know what I mean?

Like, I don't want to... Like, I just can't fucking deal with, like, what if we did the... Like, because it makes sense for Spider-Man, right? Like, it makes sense for Spider-Man, because Spider-Man's a kid. But if it's, like, I don't want to see Batman learning to be Batman for the 70th fucking time. I just can't do it. Alfred. So like... Yes, Master Wayne. I need toast with avocado on it.

Prato. And that's why he could never afford to buy stately Wayne Manor. Um, no, I get what you're, I understand what you're saying that you don't want to see Batman begins again begins. Like, you don't want to see how I be, you'd like to see a fully formed Batman. kind of like what Homecoming did. Like at Homecoming, we don't see Peter getting bit by a Spider-Man

and the spider and all that shit. Like, he's just Spider-Man, right, if memory serves. So it's like, um, we don't need to see that again. But, you know, I mean, listen, whatever incarnation of Batman they do, they're going to do the flashback to the alley and the gun and the pearls sitting the ground and the,

you know, all that shit. Like, we're going to see that. But we don't need to see how I became Batman. Necessarily. No, you definitely don't. And like, would it be great if they kind of went with the, let's say, Michael B. Jordan route, right? Where they didn't make him, oh, he has to be a white guy who's like with a, you know, very chiseled face and that kind of thing like they always do. But I don't know.

They're going to pick some guy off some teen show I've never seen. One of the Riverdale guys, I don't fucking know. Yeah, right, exactly. Right. You're Dylan O'Brien or someone like that at some point. But here's the thing about that. I, I, I, the racial casting of Batman to me was always one of the more interesting things about it because the Wayne family is supposed to be this like old money, like, we take care of Gotham kind of family. And I always felt like for that dynamic in order to be like, you know, everything that you think is, is good is not so good. And philanthropy. only go so far and sometimes you got to just like not be the person at the cocktail party. Like to me that always read as as white privilege. So I would expect that Bruce Wayne would probably be white because of the sort of connotations to the Wayne family. Sure.

Yeah. Like I get that. I'm just saying like would it be cool if they went a little bit outside of the box with it? Yeah. But they, you know, never would. But you see, outside the box to me is something that they were going to do back in the like Schumacher. days is Black Robin. Like they were going to cast it.

Oh, really? They were going to cast at one point. They were going to cast no joke. They're going to cast Sean Wayans as Robin back when, well, yeah, this is sort of, I think this is sort of like pre-scary movie Wayans family kind of deal. Like they were talking about like Sean or Marlon, maybe it was Marlon. One of the, one of the Wayans, not Keenan Ivory, I can tell you that, was going to be Robin at one point.

And so I think you could probably go outside the box without casting or even. go with the Carrie Kelly thing from Dark Night Returns and go with the girl Robin. What I want to see, though, from this flick, and I don't necessarily know if we're going to get it, is the one thing that they've never done on film with Batman is do the Bat family right, is have Robin in it and have Backroll in it and, like, you know, do the dynamic of Batman sort of being the patriarch of a larger group of heroes and the dynamics of that. Like, they've never done that right. They've never even approached to doing it right.

And don't keep you that Batman and Robin shit. That was atrocious. I would like to see a Batman movie, quite frankly, that is shown to us through the eyes of Robin. Like, have Robin enter that world. Like, not have Bruce Wayne and Batman be the pivot for the film, but, like, narratively, have it be like Charlie walking into the chocolate factory the moment Robin walks into the Batcave. Like, do it that way. Like, I find that to be a more interesting thing than, you know, sitting in Bruce Wayne's

boring-ass body for one of the... or two hours. I think there's other ways to do a Batman movie than just like focusing on Batman, as I guess what I'm trying to say. Do you have a favorite Batman, Sean? So many to choose from. This is like this is the thing that and, you know, obviously I'm quiet during this discussion partly because I haven't heard of most of the actors that you're that you're talking of.

But also because like I don't like I was never a comic book guy. So I kind of feel like to some extent it's. it's it's not my place to jump in and and i i say this not as in like a meant to be as a condescending way but to express genuine confusion i don't understand why there is a new batman or spider man movie every summer that resets the same like story it's a like you know we're starting again where here's like i know more i i i don't i never read comic books as a kid i never got into them i don't i have any you know anything against them or against people who are into them, but I'm not.

I know more about Batman's background and origin story than my own. Like, I have seen, like, I got it, man. Like, really, like, do we need to start, like, I'm, I like Star Wars as a kid. I don't think we need a new Star Wars movie every two years that's like, Luke Skywalker meeting Obi-1. Oh, yeah, we don't need that. Yeah. You know.

But that's what's funny about it. Like, you hit the nail on the head, which is that in Star Wars, like, they told that story and then they told a story before it and then they told a story after it. You know, it's not, it's not retelling the story over and over again. Star Wars at least tells you the same story three times with like slightly different characters and different points in time. It's not like, oh, they're making a new Star Wars. Who's going to be Luke? Oh, I can't wait for the scene where he meets Yoda for the first time that we've already seen film like six different times. I don't know. I've seen, I've seen more Batman movies than any other superhero movies.

I enjoy, obviously the Christopher Nola ones were great. I remember really being into the Michael Keaton version when I was a kid. You know, it was, uh, I did not, I did not see any of the Ben Afflex, uh, so I can't really comment. And I liked, I, I'll be honest with you, I really liked the Christopher Nolan versions. I didn't love the Christian Bale Batman because I didn't like understand why he was talking that way. And, uh, so I don't know. My favorite Batman was Michael Keaton. Let's go with that one. There you go. I'm that old.

You know, it's the Affleck Batman. I was talking to Ruby about this last night, actually, on the way to dinner. Do you think he made a wish on a monkey's paw that he wanted to be Batman and didn't realize all of the connotations that would come with it? It's like, you could be Batman. Oh, you can be Batman, but you'll lose your entire family and become an alcoholic. And also, people will hate your Batman movies. And the weird tattoo will appear on your back. that's the mark of the of the curse um it's a very odd situation yes uh the best batman is

kevin conroy from the animated series it's not even fucking close i you know people always say that and i and i tend to agree i actually never liked his bruce wayne i thought his bruce wayne was much more of a of a clark kent uh than a bruce wayne but his batman was fucking spot on Incredible. It's weird. I feel like there's a rogues gallery on that show that would be interesting to see on film. But I kind of wonder if the general Batman movie-going audience is like, yeah, I totally would plunk down my $12 to see Batman versus Clayface. I mean, I would.

You don't want to see them mix it up with the man bat? Come on. Actually, the man-bat would kick, would kick major ass on like CGI big screen. It would, but at the same time, how amazing would it be? because you could cast John Sina as Manbat because Manbat wears jorts. So it'd be perfect. So, all right, I don't know. This whole thing is going to be really interesting.

I will say that one name that's been put out there, Timothy Shalloway should probably not be Batman. Would you agree, Lambert? Yeah, I think, well, I would love to see Timothy Salome, first of all, very excited for the new Dune. But the other thing, I'd love to see him put on like 80 pounds of muscle and just be like a five, foot two, like absolutely shredded guy. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's why Zach Ephron should be Batman. You just made me convinced that we have our new Batman. And it is definitely, definitely Zach Afron. All right. Back to hockey. So Jake Buzzen's a Leaf. That's exciting. You excited about that, John? Is all of Canada buzzing about Jake Muson as Leaf's defensive savior?

Buzzin about Muson up here. Yeah. No, it's, you know what? I, uh, I, it's, it's, By the way, that's going to be our new Patreon-only podcast. It's going to be a podcast completely dedicated to all things Jake Muzon. We're going to first guest is Drew Doughty to talk about Jake Muzon. Week two, we're going to have Kyle Dubas on to discuss the analytics of Jake Muzon. And week three, we're going to have Ron Hainesian to complain about Jake Mousin taking his ice time. Yeah, there'll be a special alternate history of Jake Muzzin, which we change different events from his life and follow the ripples through history. I think this was a – I like this deal for the Maple.

beliefs a lot. I think everyone's kind of been saying all year they needed to add a defenseman. They went out, they got one, not cheap, certainly. I mean, I can see why, as from a King's perspective, they like this deal. But, you know, they give up the first round pick in a year that they probably could afford to give up that pick. They give up two prospects who, you know, for those who don't follow prospects are not, you know, they're certainly not. Blue Chip prospects. These are good young players. They're worth, you know, their assets worth having if you're a rebuilding team. But this is, you know, the Leafs far, like the Leif's prospect pipeline, first of all, doesn't have a lot of great prospects anymore because most of their young players are already in the NHL. And really, there's kind of two guys, the two defensemen they've used the last two first rounders on that are considered the top prospects in the organization. They didn't give up either one of those. So, you know, the price was right. If they get a guy. who comes in at a reasonably cheap cap hit, he's not a rental, they've got him for one more year after this, so it's, you know, you're not giving up a first round pick for a couple of

months. They get it done early-ish so that they can have him in the lineup as they fight to try to get home ice for, you know, for the series against the Bruins. You know, I like it. You know, the one thing that jumps out at you is he's not a righty, and Mike McHack, you know, is a devout follower of the church of righty lefty defensemen. But apparently they think maybe he can, you know, he has played that side. They're going to give him a try with Morgan Riley and try to put the two lefties together. If that works, then it's great because it bumps, you know, everyone else down the list. At least had Ron Hainsey playing on the first pair up until now.

That's not sustainable when you're going out there trying to win a Stanley Cup. So now Ron Hainzey on the third line, you know, playing with Travis Dermott, who's, you know, a young kid that, you know, kind of takes some chances. That's a good fit. That's a great third pair. That'll work okay. So, you know, I like the deal. And it was, you know, it was, I'm not, I'm not coming at this as a homer, but it was nice to see them go out and acquire the L.A. King's best defenseman. Screw you, Drew.

You had your chance to come home. blew it. The Sean Dersie kid seems like he might be a little bit of a potentially blue chippy guy that they gave up. Only right-handed point-per-game guy and junior as a defenseman. That's somebody that, but you have to give to get. And like you said, I mean, the key to this deal is that by acquiring another left-handed D, they can give you the option B or option C package of picks and prospects

because the option A one is reserved for that right-handed top pairing guy that's, you know, maybe going to eventually be acquired when they lose in the first round to get into the Bruins. Yeah, and it, you know, it helps them next year when, you know, presumably Jay Gardner's gone. So now, you know, when you're a team that's going to be really tight up against the cap, which they are now and obviously next year when the new contracts kick in, to have a guy playing on your first pair for $4 million is a lot of, you know, that carries a ton of value. Even if he leaves as a free agent after that year, you know, they've got a window open right now and they're trying to take advantage of it. and I think it makes a lot of sense. And they've still got, you know, the two other guys,

Lingran and Sandin coming up. Presumably one of them, you would hope, maybe even both will be ready by the end of next year to step in. So, you know, they haven't completely mortgaged the future to do it. No. I think it makes a lot of sense. And as long as the lefty-righty thing works out, because if we find out Muzin can't play the right side and Riley can't do it,

and suddenly now, you're going to be at a point where people are going to be saying, well, you went out there and got somebody in the wrong position and you didn't fit the, like if Ron Hainesie's back on the first line because Babcock absolutely just can't handle the site of two lefties out there at the same time, then, yeah, then you've got an issue. But other than that, you know, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's a good move. It's a fair price. I don't mind it from the King's perspective either. But, you know, it makes, it makes, it, it makes, it, it, it, it makes. It. It. makes a lot of sense and makes them better this year and beyond into next season. You know, too many lefties on the roster. Gotta go to the left podium. Get a lot of left-handed coffee mugs, a lot of left-handed pens. Too many lefties.

You get it right-ed, and get also grit and jam. Jam and grit. Grit. It jam. I like it, too, because I also like the fact that Muzins actually been on a playoff run before, which I know is like intrinsic rings in the room bullshit. But you know what? get off my case. He's also an analytic darling. So he's the perfect, you know, combination.

But like the fact that you've got a guy that's been through it and, uh, and been through it as a young player too, I think is, is kind of a nice ancillary benefit to him also being a pretty good defenseman. And, and an obvious, like you said, upgrade of a Gardner once you let you, you cut bait with him. A Toronto pariah in the tradition of other, uh, Toronto pariahs, Jake Gardner, by the way. I love how every, every, every, every, there's got to be one punching bag in every team, right? And I think it's Jake this time. time. And once he's gone and it'll end up being Matthews and then he'll go to, you know, Arizona. What do you think of the trade, Ryan?

Well, so I don't understand how everybody's like, oh, this is a great deal for both teams. It's a great deal for Toronto, for sure. They got a high-end number two defensemen for the 25th overall pick, an okay defenseman who only started scoring after his draft year. And a guy who it's like, I don't know, is he a third liner? Like, in the end of the end of, HL? I didn't see this package as being the kind of, like, giving L.A. the kind of value everybody else seemed to. And, you know, like, Toronto needed a defenseman. And they went out and got one for $4 million for the next 16 months. Like, this isn't even a rental. Like, it's three pieces to give up, and I get that. But, like, I don't know, man. I just feel like the fact that L.A., Like, everybody knew they, like, all along they've been in, they were going to end up selling on muzzin and maybe, you know, a couple other guys.

Like, basically everybody but Doughty Quick and Copatars up for grabs. So the fact that, like, they, everybody kind of knew that all year, I think kind of hurt what the return was. Like, this is one of those trades to me, I guess, where it's like, you didn't fucking call anybody else on, on, on Jake. muzzan like yeah right like that's what it feels like that's that's like after the thornton trade where half the league was like yeah we had no idea right but you said yourself i mean everybody knew that uh that this was a guy who they were probably going to move you know i remember like i'm just thinking back a conversation i had with somebody in an nchel front office uh recently about a trade that they had made where the consensus was that they didn't get enough back and i was like ah you know what were you

guys doing and and person was like everybody in the league knew for a year that we were trying to trade this guy like at some point that's the best offer you have and you either have to take it or you don't the thing with muzzin you might say is like why not wait closer to the deadline see if somebody misses out on somebody else and it and you know the price goes up and you try to get in a bidding war between uh you know a couple teams that are desperate to the leaps you know the leaps are not going to fall out of the playoff race presumably and if they do they'd probably panic and pay even more. So I think maybe from the King's perspective,

that's the criticism is, you know, was this a deal that was so good that you couldn't wait a few weeks and see if anything else was going to shake loose? That's a good point. Or maybe Rob Blake just felt like he was going to be so fucking busy in the next couple weeks that you just get this one out of the way and then work on the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Obviously the biggest news from a trade perspective,

as we, since the last time we did the show, and hopefully, you know, God willing, nothing breaks as we, you know, publish the show is the- Jamie McGinn on waivers, by the way. Oh, my God. God, all right, and we have to go redo the whole first segment now. So, Artemi Panarin's agent tells the Columbus Blue Jackets that they are not going to talk contract until after the season.

You have Bobrovsky, obviously, telling them that he'd be open to a trade, but he has some trade protection. The Panarin thing is a fucking neutron bomb dropped in the middle of the deadline. It changes everything. Every team with an inkling of winning the cup is going to be anteing up to get this guy. I'm super excited because I don't think there's any way it's not going to be Boston. I think Boston makes this deal a hundred times.

And I don't care what they gave up for Nash last year. I think they know that Panarin and Krati gives them as much firepower as any team in the league than when you pair it with the Berger Online. I'd be shocked, actually, if he doesn't end up in Boston, to be honest with you. So here's my question. Are we completely convinced that he has to be traded? Like, are the Boston Bruins a better team than the Blue Jackets right now? No, I don't know. It makes sense for them to get him.

Dude, I completely agree with you. I've been blown on that bugle for months about how for a franchise, it's never even won a playoff series. Exactly. To shoot your shot with Panarin and to a lesser extent with Bob because he can't win in the playoffs, you do it. You take your shot. I mean, the Metro Division is not an unwinnable division.

Like, you could totally get to the conference final through that path. And then once you're there, who knows? I completely agree with you. But everybody's saying, and we had Portsline on ESPN on ICE this week, is saying that he's going to go. which is nuts to me, but to your point. I mean, I guess it depends what they can get for them. And I wouldn't be surprised.

I mean, there's nothing that says that if they trade either one of those guys, but Panor especially, that it has to be a deal only for futures. I mean, maybe you can get a guy who, you know, slips into your lineup right now. Some team is willing to trade you. They're a second line winger to rent your first line winger for a couple of months, and you get that plus something else. And you don't have to sell it to your fans as if you're waving the white flag on a season. But it's a good point.

Yeah, I mean, at some point, like, what are you waiting for? Like, is this, if you're not going to take a run and try to win the division in a year where the islanders are emerging as the powerhouse, you know, I don't know when you do it. And I know I've seen people say, well, yeah, so great. So you win the metro and you're going to go get swept by the lightning in the conference final, which first of all, no, not necessarily. Who knows what's, what's going to happen. They could get that far. Yeah, it could be fine. But even if it's, you know what, like I'm so tired of this idea that one team wins the Stanley Cup every year and every other team wasted their time.

And any other trade that any other team made was a failure and every other team should have just been hoarding draft picks to try to get. Like at some point, you know, I mean, there's Blue Jacket fans who've been around for almost 20 years now. They've never seen round two, let alone a conference final. Like there's value in, even if they could guarantee that, you know what, we'll go to the conference final and then we'll get swept. Okay, you know what, that's going to be the best playoff run in franchise history. That's going to be the best month in franchise history of going through that. There's value in that. And I'm sick of hearing GMs, you know, when they don't do anything at the deadline, go, well, only one team wins the cup every year.

Like, you can't market a league by saying one team wins the cup and the other 97% of the team. teams were failures and you should be, feel like you wasted your time. Like, there's value in just being the best team you can be and taking your swing. Let me give you the best example to your point real briefly. Nashville. How many fans did Nashville mint by making the cup final? Not winning, but just getting there. Like how many people jumped onto that bandwagon and are still on there drinking whiskey and boot scooting? Like that, that's the kind of thing that Columbus needs as a, as a city. So let me, to play kind of, like, because I, I kind of see it both ways on this one, and I hate to be a both sides or right guy.

But, like, it's really one of those things. Good people on both sides. Yeah, the best. But it's, it's one of those things where, you know, I think everybody kind of agrees that Tampa is just like this impenetrable wall. in the Eastern Conference. Like, they're the measuring stick, and they're so far ahead of everybody else that, like, why would you even fucking bother playing them in the playoffs, right?

Yeah. And, like, I totally get it from that, like, because you can't lose not one but two franchise players for nothing in the off-season. Like, I, that's the thing of it for me, is, like, if you're going to keep one of them, fine, get rid of the other one. But if you're going to get rid of both of them,

like, You might as well just, you know, like you can't lose both of them, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. You can lose one of them, you can lose neither of them, but you can't lose both of them. And it looks like they're going to fucking lose both of them. So, you know, I think, you know, who are you going to trade? Are you going to trade the goalie, who, to your point, Greg, can't win in the playoffs? Or are you going to trade the elite winger who won a Stanley Cup or whatever? and wait, did he win a Stanley Cup?

I feel like he did. He was on that last Chicago team, right? I don't, wait, was he? That's a good question. I'll research that for us. Okay, well, anyway, you know, it's, but, but the other side of it is, like, it, the thing about there's value in, in, you know, going, you know, two, three rounds deep and not winning is, that's only true in the NHL because the, the NHL's like a B-level professional league in the United States and Canada. Because, like, oh, a thing you always hear.

Well, look, because my argument is, you know, if you're going to either barely make the playoffs and get smoked in the first round or not do it and maybe get a top five pick or whatever, why would you choose to get smoked in the first round? And people always say, well, the playoff revenues. And it's like, if this was a better league, like a better run, more popular league, that wouldn't be a problem because, like, the $2 million you get out of the gate revenues or $6 million or whatever the number is, like, that's a significant amount to an NHL team.

That is nothing to an NBA team that play in all the same arena. arenas, you know? And, like, it's because there's no, the TV deal sucks. That's the reason that's, that's valuable. Like, to your thing about how many, how many new fans did the, to the predators get? Maybe they know, like, in terms of how many more jerseys they've sold or whatever, but they were selling out that building long before they fucking made the cup final, right? Like, it's not like, like a bunch of people weren't into the predators.

There's just now an even larger number of people who were, I don't know. But prior to that, they had deep playoff runs, too. Like, I mean, it's the point of, like, if you win a round or two, and people start living and dying with your team, and now all of a sudden, the lead story on W, who gives you shit in Columbus is Blue Jackets Mania, sweeping Ohio, but first murders. Like, then it's going to really help you meet new fans, is not just making the cup final, but going on prolonged playoff runs. And also, like, I don't care about the revenue. I don't care about your ticket revenue. That's not my problem.

Let the owner worry about that. I look at it from a fans view. And you know what? Certainly in smaller markets where you're having trouble establishing that foothold, we always hear, you know, anytime anyone says anything about the coyotes or the Panthers, somebody always jumps in and goes, well, when was the last time they won a playoff round? How are you supposed to build a fan? Okay.

So, you know, here's the flip side of it. win a few rounds and try to build that fan base, but even putting the business of it aside. Like, I'm a Leafs fan. I've obviously never seen my team win a Stanley Cup. I maybe never will. I don't know. I go to the gym a couple times a week just so I can try to keep myself alive long enough to see this team actually win. But they never have. I'll tell you right now, that, you know, in the early 90s, when they went from being a garbage team for a decade and went to the conference final two years in a row, the Pat Burns. I mean, how many Leaf fans do you know that are still going on about that, 25 years later, we won't shut up about it.

And there's a reason for that. It was fucking great. It was the most fun I've ever had as a lease fan, as a hockey fan, was watching that team and go on that run. And, you know, for somebody to turn around and go, well, yeah, but you didn't win the cup, so, you know, it didn't even matter. Who cares? What was the point? The point was it was awesome. And, you know, there are, even in a market like Toronto, where, you know, which you think of as obviously being one of the great hockey markets, there are people to this day who are diehard Lee fans.

there are people to this day who are diehard Lee fans because of what they saw on that playoff run. You know, there's absolutely, you can't tell me that this team doesn't have a big chunk of its fan base that is still kind of running off of that. And maybe that's sad in a way. Maybe they should have won a Stanley Cup in the last 25 years and that would have been great. But there's value in that. You can't take that way.

You know, as a, as a, as a Blue Jay fan, I've seen them win the World Series. And then I've seen them go 20 years being an afterthought and not. mattering and basically being the blue jackets of Major League Baseball. And then I saw a couple years ago with the, you know, the bat flip and the home run and the, you know, that was fantastic. They didn't win the World Series that year. I don't care. That's one of my all-time favorite sports moments I've ever experienced. There's value in that.

And at some point, you've got to be willing to give that to your fans. And I understand when people say, well, we can't lose the guy for nothing. You know, it would suck to lose them for nothing. Well, you know what? It sucks to lose the guy, period. But if you trade them now for a first round pick and two prospects, I got news for you. Those picks and prospects might turn out to be nothing. It just might be delayed nothing.

Or they might turn out to be a third liner. You know what? It sucks to lose Artemmy Panoran for a third liner too, but that might be what it ends up being. It sucks to lose them, period. And there's no great answer on this. But just being able to get a couple of draft picks to hold up in front of your fans and say, well, we got something. When that something might turn into nothing within a few years, you know, to me, that's, That's as much as anything a GM covering his own behind as it is doing what might actually be best for your team.

I love this podcast so much because now forever I will think of Leaves fans looking at three slices of pizza, pizza with dipping sauce and saying, now should I have that or a salad? We have Austin Matthews now. Don't want to die before the cup. I'm just, I'm on the treadmill looking at prospect reports, like reading Corey Prime and like, oh, this guy apparently might be good. all right, I'll do another half kilometer. So you're saying you want to have triple bypass surgery. You don't really require it, sir.

I don't know, man. I need three more years, man. I have faith in dubus. He's going to make it happen. It's the fucking greatest. It's going to be so sad when the Leifes win the cup and like 30% of the country dies within the next three days because we've just all been hanging on. We just all rip the tubes out of our arms.

Let me ask you this because I've been asked this question for a lot of since the New York Jets hired their new coach. If the Leafs win the Cup, do you want the franchise to just fold? Because that's how I feel about the Jets winning the Super Bowl. Like, if the Jets win the Super Bowl, I don't need anything else. Nothing will come close to the feeling of catharsis that will happen if they win. And I don't really need to see them win again. I just fold the fucking franchise.

You've done it. You've done it. I want them to keep going because I want them to turn into the Blackhawks or the Patriots or something. Oh, by the way. And why it's all become completely. Panarin, not on a cup team, by the way, before I forget. just to leave that hanging out there. He was post-dynasty.

The next year? Not a winner. Must have come in the next year. Yeah. He's not one of playoffs series yet. Yeah, because he was the rookie in the McDavid year, right? He was the 2015 came in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The 35-year-old rookie or whatever. But yeah, I want him to keep going, but I will tell you right now and put this, you can record it, write it down. The Leafs win the Cup. You catch me complaining about the Maple Leafs. Are we recorded? Should I be recording this? If the Leafs win the Stanley Cup and you hear me complaining about anything, like in the next 18 to 36 months, please kick me right.

And I don't mean like anything about the Leafs, just anything in general in my entire life. I don't get to complain about the thing. My wife leaves me, whatever. I got to just roll with it. The Leafs won the Cup. It's cool. You'd be that guy who won the Powerball. Then you're like, oh, my God, the price of bread grows forever higher.

You just like, shut the fuck up. Exactly. Yeah. All right. Real quick, buyers or sellers, let's kick it around. Edmonton Oilers, buying or selling. What should they do? Well, from what the Edmondton media has been saying,

they need a Sam Gagne type to really round this roster out. But I think you're going to sell. I don't think you have anybody that anybody particularly wants, but what's the point of buying with it? Again, oh, they'll get in the first round, but to get through the gauntlet that would be the Pacific Division this year, forget it. Like, what's the point?

Yeah. And the other thing, it's, you got to be thinking a little bit. And I think they will buy because that's the pressure. And also, they've got an interim GM who wants to be the full-time GM. So it's, you know, unfortunately, that's, I think what I would do if I were them is, is I would sell, but I would sell with an eye on being good again like next year or the year after. I don't think you can do another three or four year reset with Conrad David. Oh, yeah, for sure.

But yeah, you talk about, you know, while you're going to be. like this would be an example of a team that I think, I don't think, has a long playoff run in them and probably is a case where you go in the first round and just get smoked. And keep in mind, they could sneak into that last wild card spot and you go, well, what's the worst it could happen? We get swept in the first round? No, the worst it could happen is you get swept in the first round by the Calgary Flames, which for a lot of Euler fans would probably be a worse fate than just missing the playoffs by 10 points and being done with it. Right. And honestly, like I say, I say you sell, because I don't believe that Keith Gretzky is going to be the GM of this team.

So leave it to the next guy. And what's the worst thing that happens if you're the Edmonton Oilers? You go back into the draft lottery. You know, it's not as if they've not had success there. They don't have Taylor Hall anymore. Yeah. Oh, by the way. What you do if you're the Oilers is you go back in time and you make that trade at the

2016 draft where you trade the fourth overall pick for Ryan McDonough. And then you don't trade Taylor Hall for Adam Larson. Can you imagine this fucking Oilers team with McDonough and Hall and McDavid? Holy shit, dude. Hey, did you boys see the Devils fan who had Taylor, who printed out the trade was one for one treat and had Taylor Hall autograph it? I have never been prouder to be a Devils fan. That is fucking phenomenal.

That is fantastic. That is John Scott wearing a shirt with a picture of himself scoring a goal levels of awesome. That is so goddamn great. Have we had, has anybody, like, complained about that yet? Like, has somebody written the column about Taylor Hall being disrespectful and how the Oilers treated him so well? That was the amazing thing. Like, Jonathan Willis on The Athletic wrote this, like, How to Fix the Oilers thing. It's quite good.

But then Delo kind of praised, Tyler Delo praised, like, the part where he's like, yeah, Jordan Eberley would be great to come back to Edmonton. I'm like, Jordan Eberley literally just flamethrowered the Edmonton media on his way. out of town. There's got no fucking way he ever goes back to Edmonton because sure, the Oilers will embrace him. He's a talented winger. They could probably use that. The Edmonton media will flay him the first moment he turns a puck over for the Edmonton Oilers. There's just no way he'd ever go back there. That's crazy. Yeah, what he really needs to worry about is just really getting in those corners and, you know, playing heavy hockey. And that's why I saw in the Edmonton media yesterday, they're going to really rely on Kyle Brodsyak in the second half of the season.

That's right. Oh, good. Problem solved. The Vancouver Connect, buyers or sellers? I think they're a hold. Yeah, same. I think maybe like a, if some team wants to give you a little bit of depth for a fourth-round pick, although, I mean, they've got, they spent their off-season getting their depth.

I think that's, I don't think it's a buy, but I think. think you've, if a team is, a young team is exceeding expectations, I don't think you sell either. Not that they really have much in the way of obvious rentals, but I think they've earned, earned the right to have that to play meaningful hockey in March and see what happens. Yep, totally agree. I re-sign Edler and I trade Tannov. That's what I do. But he's got a modified no trade, so we'll see where they do.

But that's, that would be my play, because I think TANF has some, some value. He's got a little bit left, but man, the time to do that was a year or two of a little. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they missed the vote on that. Carolina Hurricanes, buyers or sellers. Buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. Trade one of those fucking defensemen already. Will you please?

Yeah, I think, I mean, Carolina is it, they should be making hockey trades is what they should be doing. Yeah. Not necessarily selling for picks, but that's, you know, you've got a, we all can identify the overall issue with that. I mean, they don't score enough. and they've got a ton of defensemen and most teams in this league this year at least are scoring plenty and need more defense. So this doesn't seem like something that needs to be more complicated than it looks like. I don't think you're selling for picks and prospects. I think you're trying to get better right now and certainly have a roster that's going to give you a better chance next year.

On the other hand, there are five points out as we, and Columbus has a game in hand on them. So I don't know. I can see the, like, trade one of the defensemen, get a good forward back, but like, don't do it because you think you're going to make the playoffs. Do it because you think you're going to be good next year. Yep. And, you know, maybe wait, use as much of those four weeks as you can to really figure out where you're at. Yeah. I don't think they're catching a Boston or a Columbus.

If I'm them, you know, I mean, well, maybe Montreal, you can catch for a wild card, but you're seven points back of them. So you need a real run over a couple weeks to even make it worth thinking about. Should the St. Louis Blues buy or sell? Sell. Oh, God. Let me look at the standings and see where the blues are at today, since they seem to go from wild card to eight points back. They're going to buy because Armstrong's been buying since last summer. They're going to keep on and trying to push ahead.

I don't think they're going to raise the white flag like they did last year with the Stasty trade. But yeah, because here's the thing, right? Two years in a row, they've been in the race and sold, right? Because they traded Chattonkirk the year before that. And so, you know, they seem to be a team that is willing to sell even when they're close. I think the difference this year might be that, I mean, they looked so much in the offseason like a team that was, I don't want to say all in on the playoffs, but it was very clear that this was, you know, rebuild time was over and it was time to make the playoffs. and, you know, for them to miss again, I don't know if jobs are necessarily in jeopardy, although they could be, but...

Well, Doug Armstrong is clearly telling everybody he knows in the media that he wants the Edmonton job, because, like, his name has come up out of the blue, and guys like Pierre LaBroner, like, I don't know, Scotty, this guy could easily be the new GM of the Oilers. I don't know. It's a name that a lot of people... Scotty, a lot of people aren't talking about him, Scotty. And it's like, yeah, no shit. Like, he's clearly telling you he wants to be the GM of Conner McDavid's team and work

with Bob Nicholson, who we work with a hockey Canada. But again, wouldn't that be the perfect GM for the Oilers, the guy who has loads of talent on his roster and then is waiting for his... Can't win shit, yeah. Yeah, can't win shit because his goaltender, he can't save a puck, but he's tall, so we're going to keep him around for

five years to see if maybe he can become a good goalie. That sounds... Isn't it's fucking amazing? Like, the fucking Oilers, man, it pisses me off so fucking much. I wasn't here. Like, they waited until I left. It fucking pisses me off. that these dipshits are like, well, look, you know, Keith Gretzky, he really paid his dues.

It doesn't have to do with who his brother is or any of that shit. And it's like, why did Keith Gretzky get to pay his dues? It's because of who his fucking brother is. And, like, Keith Gretzky's in that, and I wrote about this. So now I'm like, I have facts and I'm mad about it. But, like, Keith Gretzky's in the fucking room for the behind the B video where he's like, yeah, Tyler Sagan tried hard, but did he try hard enough? And it's like, you're letting me.

this motherfucker be the guy who's making decisions for you, like even after you hire a new GM? Like, he's still, they've, two of their last four GMs, two complete morons failed up in that organization, and they're still making hockey decisions. They're the ones saying, oh, yeah, we wanted to, we wanted to get the goalie locked up, and it wasn't just Peter Chiarelli. Like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, source text me when the Keith Gretzky thing happened. I completely forgot about this until

your rant. And he wrote to me Keith Gretzky is a shithead scout, which is why Boston got rid of him. Pete had no choice, which meaning Shirelli, to bring him on to Edmonton. Keith was thrust upon him for obvious reasons. It's the quote,

Friends of Wayne shit show, part two. They all destroyed Arizona and someone gave them the keys again. Yeah. That is beautiful. That's poetry. A hundred percent. And like that, so like, why, why would anybody think anything's ever going to change in this rotten fucking city?

Like, with the same five morons in charge where it's like, I don't know if you know this, but we won some Stanley Cups in the 1980s. It's like, yeah. Are you suggesting that Kevin Lowe does not know a thing or two about winning? no he not in fucking 2019 well Christ not in 2000 so like it's just one of those things about my fists when I challenge under a barn fight like me Kevin Lowe and my fish in a barn yeah it is one of those things and people I think I think that's why like I have no something in the water yeah no shit we talked about this the other podcast like I have no sympathy for She really I think he's did a terrible job at Edmonton but it is naivetee

to believe that there are not other guys signing off on some of these shit decisions. And they're all still there. I bet all of them. Like, because again, they're looking at the problems of the Edmonton Oilers, and they're going, well,

you know what we need is we need more guys like fucking Kyle Brodsiac. Right. We need Kyle Brodsiac to really step up in the second half. And it's like, Kyle Brodzziak stepping up is at best a third line NHL. We need, We need Milan Luci to have a goal and an assist in six games and then have Spector write another column about how he's turning the corner. That's what we need. Yeah.

What was it? Matheson, like, 25 days before Chierelli got fired, called him a genius. Jesus Christ. It's, it is what it is. All right. Real briefly, before we get to the question of the week, Lambert, you were in Spain. I was. Give us your favorite thing about Spain and your least favorite thing about Spain. favorite thing about Spain

was I really like we went to Barcelona and when you go to Barcelona all anybody talks about is this guy Gaudi this architect Gaudi Oh you got to see who Gaudi all the Gaudes built Kurt Gowdy Kurt Gowdy And

Antony Gowdy I think was the guy's name And you go And the woman at the hotel was like if you do anything in Barcelona, you have to go to this cathedral called Sagrada Familia. It is incredible.

You won't believe it. And we're like, I've seen a cathedral before. Whatever. But she was so insistent that we went, and we were just both like, this is the greatest fucking thing

I've ever seen in my entire life. Like, like, it was so amazing. And it's still like... Was it like a religious experience, you're saying? Like, it was beyond. that, right? Because this guy Gowdy designed stuff that he knew couldn't be built with the technology at the time. And so it's still under construction. It's still not finished. It started in like 1899 and they're still putting the finishing touches on it and it'll be done in, I think, 2021 or something. It was amazing. It's kind of like how George Lucas could make the fan of menace until the technology caught up. Is that like that?

Gaudi was in many ways the George Lucas of his day Cthedrals Yeah And like all the other stuff he designed That was like his THX-1138 That was That was red tails

But But Sagrada Familia You know what That's his prequel trilogy baby And Right there you go baby Oh man It was incredible

The rest of it's just Bantapudu compared to the majesty of his cathedral work. That's true. What was your least, what was your least favorite thing about Spain? And you better not say the pinches, because that was my favorite thing about Spain. No, I would say the fact that we went to the Picasso Museum, and they had everything all nicely arranged in, what?

Frames? Well, sure. No, like chronological order of his life. I couldn't pull the word chronological for a second there. And then you get to the part where, like, he did, like, Gwernica and all that kind of stuff. And they're like, oh, all of those exhibit halls are closed until tomorrow. Oh. So, like, they were closed for, like, three weeks, and we happened to be there on the last day.

And we didn't get to see, like, Gwernica or any of the other cool, like, well-known. Like, really, like, we didn't get to see him play the hits, basically. Right. It's like he went to the Spielberg Museum and they're like, yeah, okay, well, did you enjoy Sugarland Express because the rest of it is closed, unfortunately. You don't get to see any of the E.T. exhibits. Right. The E.T. exhibits closed. The Raiders exhibit is under construction. But we hope they enjoyed Duel and Sugarland Express because both of those were fantastic. I went to, we went to different parts in Spain because I went to San Sebastian, Rioja, the wine country, and then Madrid. And you did the different parts. I'll vouch, especially if you live on the East Coast, man, trip to Spain pretty short. Kicks ass. And kicks ass.

Like, that is an awesome place to go for a trip. If you're looking for a place, it's not going to, you know, murder you as far as money or murder you as far as sit in your ass on a plane for too long. Highly recommend anybody who loves food to go to San Sebastian at some point. You've probably seen it on like a Bordane show or a travel show at some point. But, like, you know, the culture of walking up to a bar and all the food's just on the bar and you give them a couple euros and you can just taste anything is fantastic. And all the people there are wonderful and it's funny shit.

Spain. This episode of Puck Soup bought you by Spain. It's really hot there and there are bulls. All right. The Puck Soup question of the week was, where would you least like to be trapped with Pierre McGuire after, of course, Kendall Coyne was trapped with him inside the box? Paulville check-in writes in, a strip club. I don't need to know what community,

college, they are dancing their way through. Phil Koker writes in, does planet Earth count? Darren Funn writes in with the Pittsburgh Penguins on my left and the Tampa Bay Lightning on my right. Josh Hyman writes in, yes, was the answer to. Seven and Eleven writes in, the apocalyptic world from a quiet place because the dude would not be able to stay quiet. It's a good one.

Mikey Paracenti writes in, Buffalo Bill's Pit in the Silence of the Lambs. Not many people know this, but Billy's basket is made from a synthetic wicker only found in Walmart late in Pennsylvania. He's been really honing his craft over the years. That would be kind of scary. Don't you hurt by Pierre?

Tom Ertz writes in, this question assumes that there's a good place to be trapped with Pierre, but if I had to pick on an airplane because he would probably try and tell me the history, of the airline, the history of where we're going, and about potential landing spots in the event of an emergency. Chris says, in a woman's body, whoa. And finally, Mike Obsey writes in the telephone box from Bill and Ted. Doc Kennedy, this is Billy the kid, an old West outlong, gunfighter, killed eight men before he was shot and killed at age 21.

His first arrest was for stealing food at age 16. 10 days later, he robbed the Chinese laundry. Yeah, you get the point. All right. That's this episode of Puck Soup. Boy, was it epic. I probably broke F-Bomb records for a Puck-Soup history because I was angry and then I triggered Lambert about the Oilers apparently. Jillian Fisher was lovely. You can follow her at Fisher, Jillian, on Twitter.

That's F-I-S-H-E-R-J-I-L-A-N. And do check out her videos. They are hilarious. I'm Greg Gershinsky of ESPN. You can follow my stuff. of at esbn.com, and you can read me at Wichinsky, Wysh, Y, H-Y, S-H-Y-N-S-K-I on Twitter. And, yeah, who else wants to talk? Ryan Lambert, two-line pass on Twitter.

Sports.jahoo.com slash authors slash Ryan dash Lambert. There it is. All of it. My oilers take literally just went up, so you can read that. Well, I mean, not for you. This will be 24 hours too late. But it just went up. It's never too late to read Ryan Lambert, you should say. That's true.

Yeah. Sean. You can find me at the athletic look for my Friday grab bag column. I have a rant about Artemmy Panarin and a bunch of other stuff, including a detailed YouTube breakdown of the important night in sports history in which Brett Hall saved Bill Goldberg from the NWO. Don't ever let it be said that there's no one out there doing real hockey journalism because I got you.

And buy my book, Down Goes Brown History of the NHL. Brilliant. All right. Thanks to everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Oh, Patreon mailbag for other questions coming up. Checked out to Patreon. And thanks to everybody who subscribed.

Thanks for everybody who gave me and Dangos Brown props for the NHL History podcast who did recently. That was a lot of fun. All right, everybody. Love you. Bye. goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. But we also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of Hagi and Nonsense. Book two.