Puck Soup - New Coach, Same Problems

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Sean and Ryan talk the Canucks coaching change, the Yzerplan, All-Star tiers, and more.   Sponsored by Athletic Greens (athleticgreens.com/puck) and Factor (factormeals.com/puck50)

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects. I'm Sean McIndoo from The Athletic. And first of all, folks, I just want to apologize in advance. if you hear a lot of crows in the background,

uh, that is happening at my house. Ryan is a wicket now. He's, uh, I, dude, I wish I was in a summoning ritual.

It's very cool. No, like the last three or four days, for real, there's just been like 80 crows hanging out in the woods directly behind my house and making a huge racket,

like at all morning, every morning. That sounds awful. So if you can, it's not great. Okay. Um, so if you can hear that, that's what that is. You're not going insane or anything.

Um, I don't, I don't know what they're doing back there. It doesn't seem like it's any of my business. I will not be finding out. But, yeah, that's going on. And then, uh, the other thing. That should be a bonus episode. Ryan, live, interviewing the crows out there. Where are you doing?

Yeah. Just holding a microphone up to a crow that's cawing. I mean, like, crows are famously, like, insanely smart birds, you know? Yes. And so, like, I figure one of them can probably talk. Like, they could probably figure out who's the, who the spokesman's going to be. Now, isn't it a thing with crows that also, like, if you, if you wrong a crow, they can, like, remember your face and, you down? Yeah, or if you're really nice to a crow.

Okay. believe me, when I knew we were moving into an area with a lot of wooded, well, I guess, areas, I was like, boy, it would be really sick to, like, befriend a couple of crows, you know? And then I read this Reddit post that, you know, it's on Reddit, so how seriously can you take it? But some guys, like, so I had, like, a bird feeder in the backyard that some crows like to frequent, but they liked it so much that, A, they started bringing me little. like shiny things they found. Like as presents, they would just leave it on my doorstep.

But also, if anybody came anywhere near my yard, like 40 crows would show up and start yelling at them. Because they thought there was an intruder and they were helping me. Dude, like, if you can put together a little crow army. I would love to have a loyal army of crows. That would be, first of all, cool as hell and second of all, very on brand. Yeah. Some dudes, like, calls you an idiot on Twitter.

and half an hour later. Hey, buddy, no reason. Can I get your home address, please? Yeah, exactly. 60 crows are just pecking at his windows within 15 minutes. But yeah, no, like they did a study some, you know, sometime in the 90s, I think, where like a guy harassed some crows while wearing a mask. And the crows, like, knew it was him even when he didn't have the mask on.

Oh, well. Bad luck for that guy. But then... In the study. A different person put a mask on or put the mask on. And the crows were also like mad at him. Okay. They were like, oh, people who wear this mask suck.

That was... And also that guy sucks. Those were the two things that they very quickly figured out, I think. But yeah, I would love to know more about what they're doing back there, you know? Only one way to find out. Yeah. I just don't want to venture into their little, like, democracy forming. Yeah, that's true.

Circle. Yeah, they'll reach out when they're ready. That's what I figure, you know. Okay, let's talk about hockey stuff, and let's talk about the freaking epic thing everybody's dunking on from last night. Gary Betman goes, oh, I'm going to the Bruins-Canadian's game. I'll hold a media availability.

Everyone's like, oh, is something going to happen? Gary Betman goes, no, I'm just going to a Bruins game in Montreal. And if you have any, like, broad general questions to ask me, feel free. How'd that go? That's like, well, I guess the big takeaway here is that he said teams don't tank. And everybody was like, yeah, they do, Gary. But like the way he phrased it, he said, like, players and coaches don't tank, which everybody knows.

Yeah. But, you know, he said teams don't tank. He did. Yeah, he kind of did like a somewhat smart, seamless misdirection. Like, it was a little verbal sleight hand where he went from nobody tanks to, that is, I'm looking at the quote now, inconsistent with the professionalism that our players and our coaches have. And again, nobody is ever, no reasonable person has ever suggested that players are involved in tanking. and 99% of coaches would have nothing to do with tanking.

We do know that apparently Ron Wilson was approached at some point years ago about, hey, it'd be nice. And that's just getting on board. You know, that's not even like being like, you know what? It would be a good idea for me, Ron Wilson to do, is purposely do a bad job. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, we know that NHL teams that tank are notoriously loyal to the coach

that gets them to that last place. That coach always gets to enjoy the fruits of the, you know, Connor McDavid famously still being coached to this day by the same coach from 2000. Oh, wait, it's been eight guys. Sorry, my mistake. Yeah. What was your reaction of this? Like, did you?

I read the quote, and I was like, yeah, that looks right to me, you know? Yeah. But I think the thing that my big take from it was like, He shouldn't have had the media availability because he had nothing to say. Oh, is the cap going to change? You're asking the wrong guy. You know, like, what's he going to say, you know? So, like, he should have just gone to the game and everyone would have been like, oh, Gary Bettman's here.

I think he just wanted to see the Bruins kick the shit out of somebody, you know? Well, I mean, he's got 82 chances to do that this year. I know. Good Lord. It's like it just looks so easy for him. Yeah. So I guess the takeaway here is teams by which we mean management that is putting the rosters together. Very obviously do tank.

Gary Bettman is very obviously full of it when he suggests that they don't. We're seeing it play out in front of us. And also at the same time. Yeah, watch that Vancouver, Chicago. game last night. Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, though, I feel like this does fall into the category of like, what is he supposed to say? Right. Hey, Gary, you agree that like a third of the teams in the league are trying to be insanely bad this year, right? And he's like, oh yeah, and I think it's cool. You acknowledge that the competitive integrity of your league is completely in the toilet in the

second half of this season. Yes. Next question. Yeah. No, so I, you know, I guess he's, this is one of those things where until they change the system, which they apparently have no appetite to do, this is just something that he will occasionally have to get up and lie to us about. And I guess to his credit, at least from reading the quote, unlike other times that he lies to us about stuff, he didn't crank the, uh, like the snottyness up to 11 the way he usually does. Like, you know, there was no, there's no fake fan surveys telling us that actually the Blackhawks are good and trying very hard.

Right. So, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not worked up about this other than that my eyes rolled so far into the back of my head that, you know, and then made little slot machine noises while they did it. That's right. Yeah. Hey, speaking of teams that are tanking and not being loyal. to coaches or whatever.

Sorry to the guy on the Patreon who said, don't talk about the Canucks anymore. We got to talk about the Canucks finally made their coaching change. Bruce Boudreau, out, Rick Talked in. Yeah. I was shocked. I did not see this coming. No, this was really out of left field.

Man, they kept this one tight. Played it real close to the best. Yeah. I mean, as Rick Talkett, sure. Um, it's, uh, I, I guess he's, if you're going to recycle one of the usual suspects, I suppose he's, it's crazy that it's a guy, the, the two guys in charge of the team are like friends with for before. Yeah, that's wild that they, they never have a exhaustive search throughout the hockey world and the guy that they've already worked with a few years ago. And yeah, it's the, it's the Donald Trump thing where people were like, if you're just the last person to talk to him, that's the idea.

he has. Yep. You know? And this was just whoever's the last person texting. Yeah. Patrick Alvin,

they were like, oh, this guy seems like They saw him on the TV and we're like, I know him. He looks exactly like me. And then they just, yeah. Yeah.

So, I don't know. I mean, we covered the Boudreau thing last week because everybody knew what was happening a week ago. Is there anything to add to that? It was very cool that the, it was very cool that the fans gave him a good send-off. That was...

I think that's the thing to add. The other thing to add is that he... They asked him, like, what do you think or whatever? He's like, oh, I guess it's probably a coincidence. Well, I don't remember exactly what he said. But he basically said, like, isn't it a crazy coincidence that the next team's on the schedule like Chicago, Columbus, and Seattle? Interesting.

Yeah, he couldn't make it through the, like, Tampa, Colorado gauntlet. but um and like just you know many small details that have emerged i i was going to say are very funny um i get that a lot of this situation isn't funny but some of it is like the fact that uh bruce budro apparently had his plane tickets home booked like a week ago he just yeah no shit and his wife are like already packed up and ready to go and and or that in was it friday or saturday's game where like they you know in the post game press conference like at one point he had to interrupted. And he's like, just for the record, I have not been fired yet. Like, I think that was Friday. I am still an employee. And, uh, you know, just, just to get it out there. But, uh,

the Canucks are getting absolutely crushed for this. And they should. Yep. Oh, yeah. Justifiably. I, I mean, I, I, I, I, there's no difference. They couldn't have handled it worse if they tried, which if you ask, uh, Jim Rutherford, he's like, it's just because I'm so honest. Yeah, that's, that's the problem. He needs to be fucking dickhead. Like for real, where he's like, you know what, from now on, I'm going to zip it. I'm going to let Patrick Alvin do all the talk and whatever he said, you know. And it's just like, yeah, like that wasn't the problem. The problem.

I mean, I guess it was insofar as you were out here telegraphing that you were going to fire this guy in fucking like mid-October, basically. Yeah. He was even saying shit in training camp, if I remember, right? Well, he even, I mean, the fact that they let him pursue up. other opportunities in the summer. Yeah. And it's right. And yeah.

And again, like, you know, similar to what we just said with Batman, there is a certain point where you say, okay, well, what is he supposed to say? You lie. Just fucking fire the guy. Or you fire the guy. That's what you do. Yeah. Fire the guy in November.

Nobody's saying anything about this. Period. Except. And your owner is apparently saying things. Like that is the theory that seems to be gaining the most steam now, which is, that, and it seems reasonable, actually, to when you think about it, as far as trying to make sense of how does, because Jim Rutherford's not a dumb guy. Jim Rutherford's been around forever.

He's fired coaches before. How did it come to this? And the theory is that the owner, Aquilino, basically said, no, you cannot fire Bruce Boudreau. That's not even the theory. Frank Sarajevoly reported that, like, that was, straight up what happened. Yes. Yes. Thank you. It was Sarah Valley who said, and, you know, whether it was because he himself like Bruce, Bruce Boudreau, or if it was that he just didn't want to be paying three coaches because they're currently paying about $7 million.

I think it's more than that. Yeah. Coaching salaries. But that he says, you know, Jim Rutherford says, we need to make a coaching change. And the owner says no. And so Jim Rutherford basically goes, okay, how uncomfortable can I make this to the point where my boss will have to let me do what I want to do? Probably assuming that it would be a few days, and instead he has to keep the KFAB up for three months before finally they reach a point where they make the change. The other thing about that is remember like last week, Jim Rutherford was like, oh, I, uh, ownership has never interfered in my decision. No. No, of course not. What do you know? Yeah.

Crazy. But I will say the other thing is Patrick Galvin opening the press conference on Sunday by saying like this morning I decided to make a coaching change was very, very funny. That was a plus comedy. To even have the balls to try to pull that off. When your first three words have two lies in them, that's not good. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's all about, you guys remember me. I'm the GM, right?

I know you haven't seen me in six months. I've been locked in a storage closet. No, don't lie. Don't lie. He went on hockey night in Canada and was like, everything's cool. What are we worried about here? One time. And then after that, Jim Rutherford was like, you know what?

You're not allowed to. Let me handle this. Oh, that was. So he just woke up Sunday morning and was like, you know. You know what? He called up Jim Rutherford and said, this is going to sound like it's coming out of nowhere. but stick with me here yeah so really really funny um like how they handled it obviously not funny how it all went down for bruce budro and all i can say is this to to show you how in the wrong

the canucks were they fired a coach whose team was in 27th place and like playing outright sucks and everybody was like that coach was not treated fairly at all like everybody in the hockey world. Yeah. People are bringing signs to the game. Like, we love the coach. We love the coach who has us in 27th place. Yeah.

Because, like, as, I wrote about it over the weekend and I said, like, you could absolutely make the case that Bruce Boudreau should have been fired based on performance this year. 100%. And you could, no question about it. You can, I think, I mean, there could be some question about it, but I think you can without question, make the case that a coach taking the fall for a crappy roster that is in 27th place would be completely standard in the sports world.

Like there is nothing unusual about a coach being fired in these circumstances until the Canucks screwed it up so badly that they made it. They made it into this story. Did you see the thing about Elliot Friedman saying that he got it? a call or heard from, I believe the way he put it was someone in Vancouver. So he didn't say somebody with the Canucks, but somebody in Vancouver that said that this was his fault. Because he, I guess, had been one of the many reporting that the Canucks were making this change. And basically, it's his fault. Because this is, you know, this is what we do now, right?

when something happens and it makes you look bad, it's the media's fault because they reported on a true thing. Yeah, they found out that if only the media hadn't found out exactly what we were doing and accurately conveyed that to people, the whole thing would have been different. Yeah, I think the thing Elliot said, which is true, is apparently they talked to talk to talk in like November. Yeah. And then they talked to him again after the winter class.

which was three weeks ago. And then Rutherford said that. He's at one of his scrums, he said, I've been talking to people for months. Yeah. So like the idea that like, oh, this is the media's fault for, you know, getting this out there. It's like, yeah, you can't like keep a three month project under wraps for three months. Like this is the NHL. Everybody talks to everybody.

Like, you know, I doubt those. I guess I would be surprised if those leaks were coming from inside the Canucks organization. But if you talk to like two, three other coaches, like, you don't think Rick Tockett told the guys at TNT. Well, that's it, right? When the coach you're talking to has to tell a whole bunch of media adjacent people. Yeah. And look, as Boudreau made this point, he says, Talkett didn't do anything wrong. He says this is how it works.

This is how, you know, Bruce Boudreau told the story of like when he replaced Randy Carlisle in Anaheim. He was there. He was physically like in the city while Carlisle was coaching his last game completely unaware that, you know, that Bruce Boudreau already had his job. So, you know, that's fine. I will say it is, it is very, it is very interesting to me that an organization in the Canucks that as we found out with like the Rachel thing in the summer is insanely hyperprotective of like not leaking things to the media.

Yeah. To ridiculous degrees gets burned by doing something that is not uncommon but doing it in a way that everybody knew it was happening. Like that's your your goal of having a leakproof organization is obviously working beautifully. great job by you and your nine assistant GMs who are all in charge of just monitoring people's emails. A plus work. Great job. One last thing I do want to say.

I want to talk about the Rick Tocke of it all here because like you said, like okay, sure, we're fine. That's a whatever. That's a whatever coaching hire. But I just love the idea that he's being brought. in specifically to get like J.T. Miller in line. Um, not specifically, but that, that seems to be job number one. Um, it was stated in the press conference in so many words. Um, which like, again, it kind of

makes sense if you're like, well, this is the guy who's going to be on our team for the next seven fucking years, making too much money. We've got to maximize the value on this guy. I guess so. You know, then nobody's taking that contract off your hand. but you just wonder like and also I guess it's worth noting that like Connor Garland basically had his best seasons under Rick Tocket as well right so like if you can get those two guys going that's a positive but how apparently he also like clashed with Oliver Recman Larson when they were in Arizona together and how much of this I guess is them trying to bully all Oliver Reckman-Larsen out of town. Good luck. You really don't like this coach, right? OEL?

Yeah. We're right about this, this coach we hired. You don't like him? It would be a shame of like you didn't want to play here anymore. Yes. And but then like what's part two of that plan? Like he says, you're right. Trade me.

I wave my no movement clause. And then he's got four years. I was just looking it up because I'm like, does he have one year or two years left on his contract? He's got four more full seasons. After this one, right? After this one. Yeah.

On his car. Good Lord. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I guess the thing to say is, you know, like at this point, I bet the Canucks would take nothing for him. Oh, yeah. You absolutely would make that true. We'll eat salary on this.

We don't care. Yeah. Like, give us a seventh round pick. Give us future considerations. We'll retain half his salary. Who gives us you? Just get him off the team. I think that's a noble goal for the Canucks.

I think that's the right thing for them to do, honestly. I do it for Miller. I've said this a bunch of places. I would be actively trying to trade J.T. Miller before his No Movement Clause kicks in and the extension. I guess on that front, like you just don't hire the coach who's kind of making it explicit that his job is to get through to this guy. Yes. The other thing with Tocke, is he, and again, I'm not knocking him for this. This is very standard in the NHL, but it just kind of bums me out, is that he communicated very, very clearly that his main goal with the Canucks is to make them more boring.

They are playing, they're playing like a fun, entertaining style sometimes, and he wants that to end. his quote was he doesn't like river hockey. He's, you know, he only wants offense when it's, to use his words, calculate it. And he says, you can't win river hockey. So, yeah, then, you know, they go out last night and give up 15 shots or whatever to the, a terrible team. This is, this is the NHL, right? This is, you bring a guy in and his first thing is, how can we? we, you know, we, we, we lost four three.

That's unacceptable. We need to lose two to one. So, uh, enjoy that. Canucks fans. Yep. Oh. Um, let's, let's all, let's all, let's all, let's pour one out for Elias Pedersen's, uh, awesome offensive season.

It was fun. You know, oh, I, I guess that is something worth talking about. Do you think he does the, uh, the Matthew Cichuck thing now? Where he's like, I'm not sticking around. I mean, I'd be surprised. That's, that's very rare, right? I mean, the Kachuk was, it was out of character, not, I mean, not for him personally necessarily, but just for hockey players at all. So I guess we'll see how it goes.

But yeah, there also, there was that weird thing, eh, we're talking, was like, well, Patterson can't, you can't be playing 24 minutes a night. He needs to have his, he needs to be more like Crosby. And then people looked it up and they're like, Crosby has more ice time than Patterson. this year. Like Pedersen has never played 24 minutes. And Crosby plays more than he does. So, yeah, it's off to a great start. Yeah, it's going really good. All right, a couple of weeks ago,

when they announced the first batch of NHL All-Stars, we did, we put them in tears, you know. And so last week they announced the other 12 All-Stars, and we got to put them in tears too. great very very easy very straightforward as i attempt first of all as i uh as i as i attempt to pull up a list i got it um how do any revisions to the tiers that we made i feel like there were a couple where people pushed back and i was like yeah you know maybe well i i i guess i didn't see this feedback i don't know yeah all right so let's just say that

I don't care. I think it's fine. If you told us we were wrong about that, you're right. We changed our minds and we agree with you. And the guy on your favorite team should be S-tier. Yeah, absolutely. No question about it. He's fantastic.

So let's start in the Metro. Adam Fox. Is he up to the A-tier? I think he's almost to the tippy top of A-tier. I don't think he's Kutrava-Karlson. Okay. So you have no idea. I mean, he's, he's an A-tier player without question.

I'm just wondering, like, does he get lost in the mix a little in New York? Is he... I mean, I think he's New York's best player. Yeah. Okay, I could go, yeah, I could go A-tier there. I mean, we put McCar in the S-tier, I think, so... Yeah, I think McCar is, like, a defenseman who could... Maybe not this year, but who could win MVP at some point in the next couple seasons.

I don't... As much as I think Adam Fox is incredible, uh, I, I, I, I don't see him quite on that level. He's very, you know, he's close. But I'm going to put him actually right below Carlson, like in terms of star power, like ahead of Caprizov and Robertson. Hmm. I see.

I would put him below both of those guys. Okay. And again, that's partly just that he's a defenseman. What's the difference? Put him in the middle. Okay. Great. Easy.

Next up, Artemmy Panarin. Tough one. It is a really tough. Kind of more. Star power because he's been around longer and he's a forward and makes the big money. But I'd certainly agree with you. He's not their best player relative to Fox. He's been good this year.

Sort of, am I remembering wrong? Did he not start off like Red Hot and then sort of he's... I think you're right about that. Come back to more point per game. Where do you got him? I would say kind of lower end of A tier, honestly. No, maybe middle of A tier. Like, again, around Robertson, Patterson, Chisirkin kind of level.

I feel like I, yeah. Maybe ahead of Robertson, though. Do you want to just put the two Rangers back to back like Fox and Panarin? No, I did. Robertson's got to be ahead of at least one of them. This guy's crushing it. He's... Yeah, but like, again, this.

Star power. Yeah. You know, he played, like, again, do I think Robertson's a better player than Artimmy? Yeah, obviously I do. But. Okay. All right. I'll let you have that on the condition that the Dallas fans come after you and not me.

Yeah. I would say check the MVP voting from a couple years ago. Fair. And Aaron should have won it. He was the best player on that Ranger team then. Okay. The goalie for the Metro, the added goalie, Ilya, Ilya, Syroken. Yeah.

This is screaming mid-B-tier to me. I would say so. Which is where, isn't that where we wound up with most of the goalies? I know we had Schisturkin up higher. Only one goalie is in the B-tier and it's Yossi-Sarros. Like I said. Okay. So, yeah, well, that's where he should be.

I mean... I'm going to put him below Godro and ahead of Svetnikov. Very well could be the best goalie in the league right now, but... He's having an unbelievable season again. Not helping the island. We'll talk about that. I mean, it's, the Islanders are sort of a tough team to, yeah, break through on. All right.

So here, I think this is an inarguable S-tier player. Austin Matthews. Heard of them. Here's my only question. Yeah. Do we even bother putting Matthews in the S-tier, or do we acknowledge that he's going to miss the All-Star game and a game around it to get extra rest for whatever injury he's got now? We saw him sit out two games last week. I'm willing to bet he goes out, William Nealander goes in.

So preemptively, because I agree Matthews his S tier. Sure. Where's, where's Nealander if he's? Nealander would be top of C tier. I'm genuinely curious about this because as a Leaf fan, like, how is this guy viewed? I love William Nealander, so maybe I don't have, but even I'm saying like I think he's top of C tier. Okay. That sounds, I mean, if you're not a Leaves fan, if you're like. It's going to be higher than Maddie Baneers, I guess, and Beniers is B.

I don't know that he necessarily is Because I mean the thing with Benares is he might be the only crackin guy you can name if you're like a You know so-so fan in Columbus whereas I see what you're saying sure Nealander's the fourth not the fourth best forward on the leaves but the fourth biggest name Among the fours on the Leafs and kind of has been for years Well let's let's keep it with Matthews while we know he's here The only question is, because he's not ahead of McDavid, Crosby, or Rovetchkin, is he ahead of McCar?

I kind of, yeah, Macar, yeah. Yes, he is. He's a reigning. I kind of think so as well. Yeah, there you go. All right, here's another S to your player, David Pasternak. Yep. Again, is he above or below Macar?

I can't put him above Matthews. I mean, okay, is he S tier? Here's my counter, and this is not necessarily me making this case. I'm thinking through it. Again, not a guy who is, you know, the Bruins are not his team yet. They're still Bergeron's team. No. You could make the case that Marchand even is a bigger star because of the antics and because

he, you know, and everything. Whereas Pasternak is just, I don't know if you can quietly be like a 90-point guy, but has just going out there. Let me put it this way. Pasternak is in commercials. Okay. You know what I mean? They're not good commercials, but yeah.

that's I look they don't make good NHL commercials or commercial starring NHL players like the Ovechkin Baxterum insurance one or whatever I think is the only one that everybody is like yeah no that's funny

that is a good one there's a Stamco's headman one that is with headman's baby that is quite good oh yeah that's true but again I'll put Pastor Nack in the S tier but I want them at the low end of the S tier so below McCar

That's fine. I would put him in one car, yes. Okay. Another S-tier player for me, I wonder how you feel about this. Andre Vasselowski. Yeah, I was going to say A-tier. Just because, you know, again, goalies, goalies are almost never huge stars in the NHL.

I don't, I can't off the top of my head ever remember hearing him say anything or do anything other than be the best goalie in the league for the last five years or so. So to me, he's an A-tier. guy. I don't think anybody is like, I don't think there's any little kids that are like, is Vasilefsky playing in the All-Star game, Dad? But he's, he's phenomenal.

So I'd go away. So I will put him at the tippy top of the A tier then. Who is he nudging there, is it? Carlson did it? Kuturov. Kuturov, then Carlson, yeah. Yeah, I'd probably have Kutrava ahead of him, but it's, it's close enough that it's not... Okay. Here's another, well,

I'm not going to color your opinion on this one. Connor Hellebuck. A or B? Lower A or upper B, I think. I was thinking lower A. I'll put them below. So the bottom of the A right now is Hughes, Tage Thompson, and Matt Kachuk. I'll put Connor Hellebuck one step below all the other.

See, to me, Hellebuck's B then, and partly because our A is getting very crowded. And again, great player. Absolutely phenomenal player. If Sorokin isn't the best goal in the league this year, then it's probably Hallibook. Sure. But, I mean, is the Winnipeg Jets starting goaltender, like really an A-tier star in the NHL?

Sure. Okay, that's fair. Nathan McKinnon. I would put him... Is he the very bottom of our S-tier, or is he... I think so. Yeah. I think so.

I think so. yeah, this season, he's missed time. He hasn't really been top of mind this year, but the, you know, with the playoff. Yeah, playoff run and everything. He's the captain of the team. Has certainly been in the, I guess. He feels like he is, but he's not, is he? No, but it is his team.

He's the face of the franchise, all of that. Yeah, for sure. Of the Stanley Cup champions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, he's a next year. Here's a guy having a great season that I don't, I really, you could say any letter to me right now and I'd go. I mean, I guess.

It's Miko ranting it. Yeah. I'm going to say B tier. And this is a little bit of the same as Nealander, where it's like third or fourth best known player on a team. And trending upwards, because he, I mean, he kept that team together. Unbelievable year. I mean, he was, if we did a heart trophy based on the. first half, he would have got votes because he kept that team running.

But I don't, you know, he, he, by this time next year, maybe he's in the eight year. Like, he might be following the Pasturnaq path where it's like, he's just going to be so good that you can't deny, you know, where he is anymore. But I, he's not there yet. So let me ask you this. Where in the B tier? I would say like lower. And who's the bottom of our B tier right now? Bottom three is Brady Kachuk, Maddie Baneers, Yossi Soros.

Brady Kachuk? I would put him ahead of all those guys. Okay. I'll even put them ahead of, well, do I want to put them ahead of Svetnikov? I feel like I do. Mm-hmm. Right below Ilya Sorokin then? Yeah, that works for me.

That works for me. That's easy. Okay. Next up. we have from the Edmonton Oilers, Leon Dreisdell. That's a tough one. I mean, it's S or A? I think you've got to say S.

The guy's a fucking MVP. Bottom of the bottom of the S here. I think you put him below McKinnon. Okay. Yeah, I could do that. You're right. He's an MVP. He's a scoring champ.

I mean, this, again, this is, if you gave our list of S&S. tier guys to a non-hockey fan, but like a plugged-in sports fan and went, how many of these names do you recognize? I feel like recital is maybe the one guy that they don't know. Just because he's up in Edmond,

he's stashed away up in Edmont. To his own guy. Yeah, I mean, I... But at the same time, I mean, he's such a phenomenal talent that I can't... Yeah, like, on the other hand, if you say to a hockey fan, who's one of the five best players in the league. He says Leon Dreisdell every single time.

Yep. Yep. Fair point. All right. Next up, Bo Horvatt. Currently from the Vancouver Canucks, maybe not for much longer. As of us recording this. Yeah.

I think he's, I'm going to say B tier. I think certainly going into this season, he would have been, C or maybe even D. Yeah, totally agree. But I think the combination of, obviously, that he's having a great year, but also that he is like the big trade deadline guy right now, I think boosts him up. Like I think, you know, there's, yeah, it doesn't get him into the A or the S tier, obviously, but I think if you're, you know, again, non-hockey fans watching the All-Star game,

if you're like, hey, that guy is going to get traded in a few weeks. And he's, he's going to like tip that whatever team gets him, rockets up the, Cup favorite rankings. That's pretty cool. That's, you know, he's, certainly you're hearing his name far more in the next month than you have probably

his whole career up in time. For sure. So, where in the B tier? I think he might be like the very bottom of the B tier. You know, I'm going to put him at that, that cutoff just above Brady Kachuk right now. Just above Brady Kachuk.

Yeah, so that those three guys that we had below. I'm going to put him a, I can't put him ahead of Brady Kachuk. I will put him right behind Brady Kachuk, but ahead of Maddie Baneers and Gussi Soros. Fair. Okay, I'll take that.

Okay. And then the last one, the guy I got in trouble for saying on Twitter, this fucking guy made it to the All-Star team? Stuart Skinner. Who got mad at you for that? A bunch of people. Because, well, first of all,

it was mostly Edmont & O'Ollers fans, but second of all, it was people going, look at the rest of the goalies in the Pacific Division. Who else is going to fucking make it? And on that point, I had to say, you know what, fair enough on that. But like, this guy wasn't even the starting goalie on a team that didn't really have a goalie coming into this season. Right. He's F tier.

Come on, man. This is, this guy is. Bottom of the D tier. Whatever our list is, he's the last of the All-Stars on this list. Absolutely. Absolutely agreed. No question about it. you want to say look at the other goalie, sure, but that doesn't, you know, maybe that makes the pick

easier to defend, but it doesn't make him somehow more of a star. And I'll say this, fastest guy in the turtle race, you know? Congratulations to Euler fans for apparently being the only fan base that's engaged and cares about all-star voting. Um, good job. You got your guy in there. But yeah, he's, he's like the backup slash 1A to a very bad free agent signing who's been a huge bust on a team that has been disappointing

up until the last few weeks. Yeah, he's having a nice season for himself. And I said going into the year, like, I think Stuart Skinner just should like get some kind of a runout as the guy there. Mm-hmm. Like, he's, I think he's good.

I think the track record's there, you know, like, I don't, I don't see, I don't dislike anything about Stuart Skinner, but again, but even, even casual hockey fans. The Oilers didn't think he was the fucking guy. Yeah. Even casual hockey fans. I know I'm talking too much about, well, what is a non-hockey? But even a casual hockey fan, there are lots of them who probably don't even know

who Stuart Skinner is. Now, they might find out in the playoffs, but we're doing this right now. Yeah, and maybe not for the right reasons. Well, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. Who else would you put in? I mean, there literally isn't anybody having a good season. I mean, you could do like the Jonathan Quick Lifetime Achievement Award sort of deal.

Markstrom? No, and Marksson's not having a good year, is he? No, he's not having a good year, but I mean, he's at least. Famous. Yeah, famous for being bad this year, I guess is the point, right? You know, maybe. He's under 900. I guess you probably want to get overnight.

Yeah, and I think that's probably the problem with Quick as well. I guess I haven't looked at Jonathan Quick save for a minute. I mean, the other guy would be like Martin Jones, who again is not posting great. But, you know, he's, I don't know. He's got a lot of wins. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think, again, he's also below 900, by the way. Yeah, if you put Martin Jones, I'd be put Martin Jones at the bottom of the tier list, too.

So I'm not saying these guys are better. Oh, I would, create. create a new tier for Martin Jones. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Like, again, Stuart Skinner's a guy I like and I was like, I can't believe this guy made the All-Star team. Martin Jones, I think, is awful.

If he made the All-Star team, I'd be like, what's like the Z tier? He's one of the worst players in the league over the last five years. Yep. And yet, he consistently gets like 30-plus starts. Yep. And he's going to get Vesnavotes because of all those wins. Man, this league rocks. All right, so just to run down every tier really quickly.

S-tier, McDavid-Crosby-Ovechkin, Matthews, McCarernerick, McInnan, Drysidle. A tier, Vasselvesky, Kucherov, Carlson Caprizov, Fox, Panarin, Robertson, Petterson, Schisturkin, Hughes Thompson, Matt Kachuk, B tier, Hallibuck, Mitch Marner, Johnny Godroo, Ilya Seroquhart, Miko Ranton, Andre Svechnok, Brady Kachuk, Bo Horvett, Maddie Baneers, Yossi, Sauros, C-Tier, Ulmark, Larkin, Tarasenko, Cadry, Seth Jones, God, I forgot about that.

Kevin Fiala, Josh Morrissey, Nick Suzuki, and finally the D-Tier, Thompson, Brock Nelson, Kevin Hayes, Troy Terry, Clayton Keller, Stewart Skinner. We nailed it. Yeah. No notes from us. I think we did a great job. Anybody who disagrees, well, that's your business. I don't want to hear about it. So, all right. Why don't we take a break? We'll be right back. This week's episode is brought to you by our friends at Athletic Greens. I think I've told this story before, but there was a point several years ago where my wife and I decided that we're going to get healthy and we're going to start doing healthy things like taking vitamins and supplements.

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every week that we do a main show, and even the weeks we don't do a main show. And there was one question in there that I thought needed more time than we would give it in a mailbag. Let's put it that way. And I did not write down who it's from, so I apologize. But the question is basically, how do you think this whole Eiser plan is going? The genius, Steve Eiserman. The team sucks this year.

They're really bad. They don't seem to be making progress. And I'll say this. I acknowledge and understand why this guy is an absolute hero among Red Wings fans. Yeah. And to his credit, I mean, he could have retired and said, I want to be the Jam of the Red Wings right now, and they probably would have given him the job.

And instead, he, unlike virtually every other former star, he went to a different organization and worked his way up and learned on the job rather than just being handed the job by the team that likes him. So I get why they were super excited when he came home. Always felt inevitable. Right guy for the job, obviously. There was no question based on what he had done in Tampa. It's been a very patient rebuild.

That is the beauty of coming in as a new GM who is also beloved by a fan base. You get a lot of rope. I'm wondering if the rope is starting to run out because this team is just spinning its wheels. Yep, I found the question. This is from Anthony? And it was, is the season turning into an under-the-radar disaster for Detroit? they aren't making the playoffs. Their improvement is enough to take them out of the running for the amazing prospects at the draft,

and there's nothing to suggest their current young crop of players can be true game changers. I wouldn't go quite that far on the current young crop of players. I, you know, I said it last year. I think Cider got insanely overrated in the way a lot of, you know, good young defensemen do, Tyler Myers. Like, I don't think he's Tyler Myers, but like, and frankly, Tyler Myers had a very nice career until he signed the contract everybody hated. Like everybody was like, yeah, he's pretty good.

But like, and obviously, you know, a lot of that was playing with Ben Chirot for a good chunk of the year, which what a disaster signing that was for Iserman. Right. So here is my big take. And I wonder how you feel about this. All the stuff he did this summer was to accelerate powering out of the rebuild. Right. you get Andrew Copp who who's a player I think a lot of people like

me included but and Ben Chirot who I don't think many people like at all me included and really who's not the Panthers scouting staff right now yeah but and like Huso's having like an okay season

like he's been fine but and maybe fine behind this team is like all you can hope for maybe, you know. But, oh, didn't they also, did they sign Kubalik this year? Am I right about that? Mm-hmm. Okay.

So, and Kubolik is also having a perfectly good year, you know, and maybe even I'm underselling that a little bit. He's, he's going to clear 25 goals pretty easily. And again, that's just a player I've kind of always. always liked. Oh, and they also got Peron. But the point is, they went out and signed all these veterans and gave them like, at least decent money, if not like, big

money for what they are. Like, Peron got 4.75. Chirac got 4.75. Huso got 4.75. Like, those are maybe not huge contracts that add up quickly, you know? Like, individually, oh, 4.75 for that guy, that's not bad. But when there's like four guys

that have contracts like that, that's not good. It was the biggest increase in payroll in the league. Was it really? Yeah, according to Dom, according to his off-season rankings that I'm looking at. So there you go. And like, but again, if you just looked at all those guys, you're like, that guy's pretty good, I guess.

None of those guys are making a difference. Like, I think the thought from Detroit, and again, like, feel free to hop in here. But I think the thought from Izerman was like, I'm counting on the young guys to take a step. I need Michael Rasmussen and Lucas Raymond and Jonathan Bergman and Moritz cider. I need those guys taking a step. And I would say they mostly, I mean,

Bergrand's like just barely getting his first like NHL time this season. Right. So like even that, but like he needed those guys to be better than they have. been. And they haven't been. And here we are. Yeah. I, I mean, I would agree in general. I don't think this was meant to, like, vastly accelerate so much as it was like this is... I think it was supposed to get them into the Ottawa Senators range of playing meaningful games. Good news for them. They are exactly in the Ottawa Senators range. They both have the same one loss record, which, I mean, and we're all kind of stomping on the senators for underachieving.

And Detroit, other than the loser points, is in the exact same ballpark. I don't think it was about, yeah, this wasn't like, it wasn't what you see sometimes, which is a team is doing the slow and steady rebuild, and then they kind of get antsy. And so they try to cheat a little bit. Like the Ottawa senators. Yeah, yeah. And this didn't feel like that. this felt more like, okay, we've done the first three years of the rebuild, which is about

building the foundation. And then once you've got the foundation, then you start putting the pieces around it. You know, it's a little, it's kind of like building a fire, right? Like you have to, you don't just throw everything in the pit. You've got to build it up and now you start, you know, getting the kindling in there and hopefully the whole thing lights up. And it hasn't. But the concern here is yeah they signed a bunch of guys who weren't helping that's not great certainly but they also

they could sign that because they could sign those guys because I just meant it really managed the cap well and you know everything the concern is the foundation the concern is you know like you said not just the younger guys not taking a step forward but you know Dylan Larkin is

what's happened there. Not only has he been good but not great. You know, Dylan Larkin's a great player. Every team in the league would love to have Dylan Larkin. Is he a great player? I think he's a very good player. I think he's a very good to great player. But I don't think if Dylan Larkin is your franchise player, that you're a team that's a threat to do that. I guess on that front, that's what I'm saying. I think he is overrated in the way that you were saying that Thomas Shabbat is. is overrated in Ottawa. You know?

You know, like, where it's like he's, he's a good player. Everybody would want him on their team. But the, the extent to which he is a good player is, I think,

overstated by the fans of that team, which then translates into everybody thinks, wow, this guy's pretty good. Like, I think you're right that we got, that we got yelled at in the tiers, partly because we put Dylan Larkin in the C tier.

And it's like, Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's better than a lot of the, than a lot of the guys in that seat here. Part of it is, you know, we've been hearing about Dylan Larkin for five years now, whatever it is. And there was a time where he looked like he was on track to be a legitimate. He's a little under a point of game in the last, like in a few seasons. And then every once in a while, he's like, I'll just be closer to 50 this year, you know?

So he, this year, he's once again closer to a point. the game, although, and this is the thing that you're kind of talking about, he's in a contract year. He's in a contract year. A couple of 30 goal seasons, again, like, this is not, hey, Dylan Larkin stinks. No. This is like, if you're building a team and you want to go somewhere, you want a Dylan Larkin type player on your team.

To be your second line center. Yeah. And so all of that is to say, you know, that's more criticism of the rest of the foundation as opposed to of Dylan Larkin, but then also, what do you do? Because he's in a contract year, and I think most of us, or at least, you know, myself, I just assumed all year, like, yeah, they're going to sack course the Red Ring's going to figure out a way to sign Dylan Larkin. And now it's at the point where it's starting to look like, you know, they'll probably

sign him because it's the NHL, but like it's a non-zero chance now that they don't, in which case, what are we even doing then? Like, if you, are you going to move Dylan Larkin for futures? You're not getting it. I mean, yeah, I guess my thing is, if you're going to try to, again, get kind of like in the, in the Ottawa senators, like, oh, we want to play meaningful hockey down the stretch range. Much like with the senators. This is the wrong fucking year to do it. Well, yeah.

You know? Like, and again, they're in the same division as the senator, so this applies to the, them as well. Look at the four teams in front of you. Again, Florida is underperforming, right? But you also have to say they're better than the fucking Red Wings. Yeah. And on paper anyway. And they're obviously better than the senators on paper. And it's funny. I say that. And I think they have a lower points percentage than the Red Wings do. The Panthers do. But it's just one of those things. things where it's like, if you're the Red Wings coming into this season, you're like, we want to be vaguely playoff competitive. Well, there's four teams that you have to think are going to finish in front of you in the

standings. Hasn't worked out that way in Florida, but like Buffalo has jumped up to take Florida spot in a way, right? And maybe you say that's unexpected, but it's like you were never getting into the top three. And so you were asking yourself if you thought you were better than. you know, all but three of the teams in the, in your own division, and then everybody else in the metro. And I don't know how if you're the Red Wings, you were like, yeah, we're right there with that.

And it's, but it's tough, right? Because you hear this from rebuilding teams sometimes where, you know, their last place and last place and last place and you go like, you know, hey guys, at some point, don't you have to not be in last place? And, you know, their fans will say like, well, well, you know, they're not going to win the Stanley Cup. Yeah, but you do need to take the step at some point. And it might be for a season or two.

We talk about you never want to be in the middle in the NHL. That's the worst place to be, like where the predators are kind of camped up now where they just feel like they're going to be the easy out for the good teams for the next few years. That's a bad place to be. But you never want to be stuck there. But the key word is stuck. You do have to pass through. You know, with the exception of maybe like a New Jersey, it's extremely.

extremely rare for teams to go from they stink to they're a legitimate contender. You might have to make a stop in the middle, but it should be a quick stop. You don't want to get stuck there. And Detroit doesn't even seem like they can get there right now. Right. I think it's very interesting to see where the chips fall here because like they do, the other thing you have to say about this team is they have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve pending UFAs.

So like, that's a lot of money coming off the books. Which, which gives the summer. They could, but, uh, yeah, I mean, what, what direction do you go in? Unless you have, like, really good intel that you can get a Bo Horvett, even like, like, how much better than Dylan Larkin is Bo Horvett? I'm just looking at it. Do you think, could they're, given Jim Rutherford's comments, do you think there could be anything of a Horvot for Larkin trade?

I, you know, I think both teams would have to be really sure that they could resign the guy they're getting. Yeah. You know, let them have a little conversation. Yeah, I just, that trade would feel insane to me, just because it's like, let me trade you this fork for this other fork. that's exactly like it. You know what I mean? Like,

I like both of the players. But it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it,

it, to me feels like, you know, and I'm not saying it's an even, you know, one for one trade or whatever, but. It's pretty, I feel like it's pretty close.

It's kind of close. And like, Steve Iserman, I could see him saying, like, you know, because I heard this from Red Wings fans, where I was like,

hey, you know, Iserman hasn't done a lot of, a lot of, like, big, bold moves. And, you know,

So maybe he should trade Dylan Larkin. And a lot of Red Wing fans, and I don't think they were necessarily wrong. We're like, you know, is that bold, though? You trade Larkin for, what, a first round pick and some prospects? And now you spin your wills for another few years while you're hoping those guys turn out. Yeah, I mean, maybe. So maybe the Red Wings want to move on and bring in a guy who's going to let them continue to try to go upwards. The Canucks should not do that.

But Jim Rutherford seems to want to. Yes. Oh, he, and, yeah, Larkin's right in the age range where he's like a year or two younger than Bo Horvett. So he can be like, look, we got younger in this trade. Exactly. Oh, okay, sure. So the other thing we should mention with the Red Wings, I guess, is after years of wondering when it would happen, they finally made the coaching change this year, which was another reason to hope that maybe, which is not, you know, I'm not saying Jeff Blasiel's a bad coach, but certainly didn't. didn't show otherwise with the Red Wings and even when you go from, you know, even if you don't

upgrade the coach, a lot of times you get a short-term boost. And there was a hope that that would happen and really hasn't. I mean, they started off decently. But, no, I don't think Derek Lalonde doesn't seem to be a huge upgrade over what they had. so that's another card that's been played. Yeah, but, you know, that's just kind of the roster thing too. Well, I mean, it all comes back to Iserman, right? I mean, you know, again, and look, we just knocked Jim Ruther for, oh, you know,

he went out and got a coach that happened to be somebody that he knew and, you know, was, I mean, Eisenman kind of did that too. Yep, for sure. So as far as the answer that, like, if it was other GMs, we would start having the conversation of when does the patients run? out, when do, you know, when, I mean, I don't think patients are going to run out for seat. Like, Steve Eisenman is not getting fired.

I wouldn't think in Detroit. And the reason I put the wouldn't think qualifier on there is like, Ron Francis got fired in Carolina, but that's really the only example I can think of of a superstar actually getting fired by his team. Right. If they ever decided he wasn't the guy, they'd kick him upstairs or something like that. But sure. Yeah.

I mean, I don't think the patience has run out, but it's, at some point, we got to start shifting the conversation from Eisenman's a genius and just wait. The plan is going to work and, you know, this is going to turn out great to maybe not, you know, even if the plan was right. Maybe sometimes you have the right plan and it just doesn't work out. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And the other thing that, or I guess the last thing I want to say about this is they do have good prospect. still in the pipeline. Like, Margo Casper, Elmer's Soder Blonde, like, these are guys that they really think, like,

okay, this guy can make a difference for us, you know? And obviously all those guys were like 18, 19, 20 years old. So we might be waiting a while to find out for sure whether that's actually the case. But, yeah, I mean... What would you do with Dylan Larkin? Like if Dylan Larkin says, I want $9 million a year. I hope you find someone that will pay you that amount of money then.

Would you let him walk, or do you then trade him in the next month or so? I guess, like, the extent to which I believe that you need to get something for a guy, if he's a pending UFA. Like, I maybe overstated that in the past. I think that's true if you're a playoff team with legitimate Stanley Cup aspirations. Like, I don't know who's a pending UFA on the Bruins or the Leafs or the Lightning right now. But like, you don't trade those guys if you're those teams. Right. If you're the Red Wings and you're like, look, the offer is seven and a half, eight million bucks, whatever, whatever we want to say the number is.

And he's like, I want more than that. And you're just like kind of at an impasse. I think you should trade it because you're just not I get the thing of okay now you're kind of resetting it but it's like and maybe you can't find a

similarly impactful player for cheaper than what Larkin wants but I think you got to roll that dice this is it right like it is a very tough it's a very tough call Like, what do you do when your best player, your best forward? Because I still think Sider is going to be great.

Yeah, sure. And he's probably your foundational piece, certainly that you've acquired during the Eisenman years. But what do you do when, okay, your best forward is a B plus player? What do you do? And you need a new contract. And because he's your best player, he's potentially going to want to be paid like an A player. What do you do? And it's very easy to say, you don't.

don't give B plus players a contracts. You can't do that in a hard cap league. Great. So now what do you do? You've just lost your best player as a B plus. What the hell do you do when you don't have him? Right? I mean...

I would say normally you can give a B player an A contract. And again, like... Not for seven or eight years if that's, you know, what he's going to want. Larkin's not even 27 yet, right? So like he... If you give him eight years, You only only have him till he's 35. Like the number of productive years you're going to get out of that player is like higher than if you're getting a guy who is hitting UFA at 29, obviously.

Like J.T. Miller kind of, you know. But the problem is that he's given B contracts to a bunch of C players. And that's when that's when you get into trouble. I think you can do it if he's your captain and your number one. center. Again, I don't think a good team has a Dylan Larkin as their number one center. I think he's a great too. I think he's like, you know who I would compare him to in terms of like how I see him as a value to the organization is David Craichie. Okay. You know what I mean? Like if you have a Patrice Bergeron in front of him, oh my God, you are set for life. But how many teams have Patrice Bergeron, you know? So yeah, I think I think the.

real problem is all these like, you know, four or five million dollar contracts that are sitting on the roster. Even if these are players I like, and for a lot of them I do. But it's like, that's when you get into roster trouble. It's not a great situation in Detroit right now. It really isn't. Given all the optimism that there was in the offseason, like, how many teams... I don't understand that optimism, but...

Well, I guess the optimism was Steve Eiserman's... a genius. Yeah. It's a slow and steady rebuild. They have, you know, as like Dom, Dom in his offseason ranking said, no team has improved more than the Red Wings, and it's not even all that close. Now, they added six wins worth of talent, and they weren't six wins away from being a legitimately good team. But again, you've got to, you know, there's, there's no 30 win player out there who's going to show up. So you got to. Can I say this about about, uh, the thing about Iisman, you think he's a genius? Easy to look like a genius when you have Kutrov, Stamco's,

headman, Vasilevsky. Yep. You know, go down the list. Like, all those, like all these, like, players that would be foundation, let's put it this way. Any player that I just named on the Lightning would be the Red Wings best player right now. Not even a question.

Agreed. Yep. So, like, there's your problem, right? Like, when you're like, oh, damn. And, like, Eisenman did a great job managing that team. I'm not saying he didn't. And he did a good job finding, like, players they can slot into the lineup when other players get too expensive. I think he did awesome there.

But the foundation he had walking into Tampa is 10 times better than the foundation he had walking into Detroit. So I think this is like a, the Eiser plan, such as it is. like this is a guy who doesn't, you know, talk to people a lot, you know what I mean? So, like, we don't know what his, what his inner thoughts are about, like, what the Izer plan actually is. I think the Izer plan got to be longer than people are maybe expecting. And again, it's, you know, he'll get the patience and that's great.

And I'm sure there's lots of GMs that would tell you, like, yeah, this is, we need time. It's great that Eisenman's getting. you know, an extra time. It might all work out still, but yeah, I do think that on the, like, I feel like I saw GM rankings lists not that long ago where Iserman is near the very, very top. And I do feel like he's been nudge down a little bit. Maybe not in the eyes of Red Wing fans. And again, I get it.

But everyone else, yeah. But yeah, that's all I have to say about the Red Wings. But there is one other team I wanted to ask you about. that I feel like is in a similar situation with where they are in the standings relative to where people thought they would be and held. They are basically tied with the Red Wings and the Florida Panthers in points percentage right now. And that's the New York Islanders. Yeah. I'm wondering what you think of where this organization is as a whole right now.

because it's, I got to, I got to think like you're not super optimistic if you're an Islanders fan about the future. No. And I got, I got in an argument with an Islanders fan last week because I made a reference to them being in Win Now mode. And they're like, what, what makes you think that this team is in Win Now mode? and I said, well, you're either rebuilding or you're in Win Now. And this team is definitely not rebuilding. So they're in win now mode. Now, they're not winning.

But yeah, I mean, you look at this roster, it's old. The prospect pipeline is bad, you know, relative to the other 31 teams. I mean, obviously, yes, they have a few prospects, et cetera, et cetera. But what do you have a minute? The prospects had them 23. Okay. And the athletic had them 27. So no matter which way you slice it.

you know, certainly not like help is on the way. Bingo, yeah. They do not have anybody who's like a year or two away. And like the, boy, this is maybe not great. This was over the summer. Noah Dobson is their number one prospect. So like, I don't think elite prospects was giving them credit for Noah Dobson. Okay. In fact, I'm looking at it now and they,

don't. So, like, the athletic is being, I think, kind in saying Noah Dobbson's still a prospect. This can't be right. Oliver Wallstrom, too? It's there, we have a prospect ranking and then we have an under 23 ranking. Yeah, this just says pipeline ranking. Yeah, the pipeline may just be guys under 23. Under 23.

I'm not sure. I'd have to look it up. Yeah, Romanov. They have Atu Roddy as the number five guy. We have him as their number two, like actual maybe not in. the NHL prospect. So yeah, like, and Adirati is a guy that I think is going to be good in, in the NHL one of these days.

And Holmstrom is kind of in the same boat, but point being like good, what does that mean for the islanders, you know? And unlike the Red Wings, who have a bunch of guys coming off the books this year and can therefore spend money and move guys for picks and prospects and maybe other even NHL roster players like on Reclamation projects. The Islanders have one, two, three, four, five UFAs next season. That's it. Are there any big tickets there?

Big tickets, let's see here. Scott Mayfield, who's making 1.45, and Semyon Varlamov, who's making five. Those seem to be the two guys making more than a million dollars, who are their UFAs. Yeah. and this is an old, like this is very much a team that is, like they're old, but other than, I mean, they've got Zach Parizzi, who's very, very old. But other than that, this is very much a team that is like built in that 1990s mold where there's a lot of guys who are 30, 31, 32 years old, which today is old. Back then, and, you know, you could maybe draw a straight line from Lou Lamarillo.

to 90s thinking, but, you know, back then it's not good. But I mean... Maybe you could do that, yeah. Like, the players that are 30 or older on the Islanders, I'm just going down the score list. Brock Nelson, Anders Lee, J.G. Pajot, Perese, obviously, Josh Bailey, Matt Martin, Casey, Zakis, Scott Mayfield, Kyle Paul Mary. You go down the list, like, that's a lot of guys. And there's... Mm-hmm.

So this is not going to get... better, not organically. Again, another team that made a coaching change. Yeah. And even the guys I think of as young as I look at this list, like Ryan Poulock, Adam Pelick, I think of those guys as being kind of young. Ilya Syrokin's another one, 27, 28, all three of them.

Yeah, Matthew Barzell is young, but he's not young as in maybe next year he'll suddenly be 20 points better. Like he's kind of at that where a typical aging curve is, At this point, he is what he is. And that's a good player, a really good player. Sure. But even he is kind of topped out at, you know, maybe not exactly in the Dillon Larkin range,

but is Matthew Barzell the first line center on a cup contender? I got to say the answer to that one's a big, no. Like he's on pace for 70-something points this year. Yeah, he's a good player. Good 200-foot player, you know. So I don't, I feel like there's not a lot of optimism here. And again, yeah, they're stuck in the middle this year. And here's the thing.

And they made the coaching change. Barry Trots apparently wasn't the problem. Unlike the Red Wings? Much like last season, they're where they are despite getting maybe best in the league goaltending. Yep. You know, they stink despite having the best goalie in the league. Yes.

If they didn't have. They're five points out of the playoffs. despite having the best goal in the league. If they didn't have Ilya Sorokin, they are easily in Ottawa, Montreal territory. Correct. It's unbelievable. Now, I will say that they have maybe had a little bit of bad luck.

They don't have like a bad goal differential or anything. Like it's not even negative, I don't think. But like you just shouldn't a team with, as you say, this many kind of older guys like, shouldn't they be in, maybe not win now mode because that kind of implies they should be trying to win. I'm not saying they're pushing all their chips in trading prospects for, you know, but. But like they should be, they should be what the Ottawa senators in Detroit Red Wings wanted to be this year, which is playoff competitive. And they're just kind of not, you know.

Again, I think, I think being quote unquote only five points out is like one of those things you can talk yourself into, we're right there. We just need to win four games in a row, you know. But they've currently won one of their last 10 games. Yeah. Now, and five points out is bad, like. It's a lot, yeah. A bad position to be in. And yet they're on track to not even be in the lottery.

So. And the interesting thing is their next two games, tonight they're in Ottawa, and after that they've got Detroit. So the two teams we've been comparing them to, uh, well, those are two teams like passing each other on an escalator, right?

Or three teams, I guess. Like, Ottawa and Detroit are, in theory, going up. I'm not sure Detroit's going, you know, all that up. They might be on a people move, like one of those things in the airport, where it's like a moving sidewalk. But the Islanders are kind of, it's an abandoned elevator shaft at this point. One last thing on the Islanders, only because I haven't heard this name very much,

but don't you have to trade Varlamov if you can? Last year of his deal You've got to think There's some team out there That needs a goaltender And he's been good this year You know, he's obviously He's not stroken

But he's been fine You're telling me that like There isn't some team out there That's going to gun for a Stanley Cup That wouldn't take him at least as a The money is a bit much You got to say that At the deadline

I mean you can retain half You can retain because it's an expiring deal Does Lou retain? I don't know if If that's just one of those things where it may be one of his weird things. Yeah, that's a good point. Because you do have to filter every decision the Islanders may or may not make through Lou Lamarillo brain, which is like this inscrutable thing of like you're just never

going to get to the bottom of it. And I will say that unlike with Detroit, I do not have the impression that Islander fans are have got bottomless patience for their legendary GM. I've heard a lot of people saying like, boy, we would love it if Lou got shuffled to. Boy, imagine saying that like a year ago, the pushback you would have gotten. Well, two years ago, certainly when that, I mean, he was winning GM of the year back to back. Yeah. Yeah, tough times for them.

Maybe you don't fire the coach that won you GM of the year back to back. Hmm. Interesting. Interesting. Why don't we actually talk about that right after this break? This week's episode of Puck Soup is brought to you by Factor, and folks, it's the new year. You've got new goals and factors here to help. They make ready-to-eat nutritious meals. They deliver them straight to your door, leaving you with the time and energy to tackle everything on your to-do list.

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And he did a big interview with a friend of the show, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist himself, Sean Gentilly. Heard of him. And he was just like kind of offering his thoughts like, oh, look out for the Leaf. So here's what I told Bruce what they did to him in Vancouver. Like, he's just, he's just got his, his finger on the pulse. Yep. And, uh, I think, I think the thing he said was like, uh, some teams asked recently or over the summer, maybe.

I don't think he was even during the season. He, yeah. He said some teams reached out. Yeah. And he was like, I'm going to Europe with my wife and some friends, which like, hey, respect. What a cool move. Like, get everybody to go to Europe for, for a little while. That's fun, you know.

Um, but like, it just seems like we're getting. kind of close to Barry Trott season? Yeah. Oh, yeah. This all feels like very calculated and in a good way. Like I'm not, you know, this is part of the game. He, you know, he's keeping his name out there. He is, you know, saying nice things about Bruce Boudreau is going to play well these days.

And then he basically says, yes, I've had teams approach me. my answer was no, not right now, but I'm going to come back from Europe ready to go. So the implication there is by, if not the end of the season, by the off season, I'll be ready to go. I've already had teams reach out. So if you're a team that's maybe interested in me, you're already...

Pick up the phone, baby. And, you know, we're going to go, we'll do the bidding war in the off season. Absolutely, you know, smart. how many fan bases, how many fans out there who aren't enamored with their current coach, see something like that and go, oh yeah, Barry Trots, man, we got to get that guy. Spark time to do it. And I, you know, and I don't think it's intentional necessarily, but it's, it is interesting

to me that he's doing this right around the time that the NFL is doing its coaching carousel thing, which is huge in the NFL. You know, there's probably a lot of, you're getting a lot of NFL teams going like, yeah, we're all in on, you know, whoever it is. We're, you know, we're going to get Sean Payton or we're going to get this guy. And Barry Trots is kind of setting it up to be that guy in the offseason. He's doing it. And he's doing it well.

And yeah, if I was a fan of a team that needed a coach, and I very well might be by the time the spring rolls around, I'd want in on Barry Trots, of course. So I just pulled up the cap-friendly list of coaches' control. And there's a lot of guys where it says unknown. But like, there are some where it's like Derek Lalonde, it says like he's unknown and unsigned beyond this season. And it's like, can that be right? They only gave him a one year deal? That doesn't sound right.

I can't imagine. Right. But Dallas Akins is unknown with, this is the last year of his contract. Oh, I think we know on Dallas Aikins. Well, it's just unknown in terms of like what his money. is, I think. Yeah. Doesn't look like he's signed beyond this season, though.

Another team with the coach not signed beyond this season. Lindy Ruff, or well, I guess that's not a team. That's the coach. The New Jersey Devils and Lindy Ruff have apparently one year left on the deal. Wouldn't be surprised if that gets extended for obvious reasons. Yep. Lane Lambert. Oh, there you go.

They could hire Barry Trutz. Well, so the other thinking is that Lou Lamarillo's contract is also up this summer, but also he seems like he's the kind of guy who's like, I'm doing a great job, and I'm keeping it. You know? Seattle, there's no information on Dave Haxdoll's contract. I'd be surprised just based on, you know, where things are at with them.

Yeah, he's not going anywhere, I wouldn't think. And then the only other team that is listed as having a coaching contract up this summer is the Washington Capitals, One place I'm pretty sure Barry Trots won't be going back. You would assume, yeah. One would think. And so I guess my point is this isn't like last summer where a third of the league turned over its coaches, right? And there are probably other coaches who, you know, maybe their teams move on from them.

I think absolutely. Yeah. Maybe DJ Smith, I wouldn't be shocked. I wouldn't be shocked. DJ Smith, I think, is not going to be back, but I don't see the senators bidding on Barry Trots. Okay. Put it that way.

Yeah, then I'm going down. Nashville's an option, Columbus, I think. Nashville and Columbus seemed to be the other two. But I'm going down, like, I was going from the bottom of the top here, and I don't see a lot of other teams, like you said, maybe the Leafs. The Leafs, if they go out in the first round again, I think, are suddenly become a strong potential. And then I guess the other one we should mention is just, is Winnipeg, just given Rick Bonas, at his age, given their interest last year. But Bonas has two years left after this one.

I'm surprised at that. That's a tough pill to swallow. I'm really surprised at me. He had him kind of over a barrel, you know? Maybe. Yeah. A little bit. And it's going great for them this year.

How much of that is the goalie? Most of it. But, you know, hey. I think, boy. And then plus, we should say that, you know, some team that we're not thinking of right now will either crash and burn in the second half or flame out in the first round. Yeah. What about the flames? That's another one that I look at.

Yeah. Do you think the flames are maybe in the? No. I think you can chalk a lot of this. Again, to like goal tend. Like, even if you're a foreign. claims skeptic. You can just look at like, well, what's Darrell Sutter's supposed to do?

Like the gold ending hasn't been good this year. But even then, like, I don't think they've played. They've been a good team this year. I think, like, that, that's obvious to me. I guess so. I guess, look at what they're doing. And they're in a playoff spot. So. Yeah.

If they make the playoffs, that's, that's it. But I mean, part of it for me is also like Sutter is 65 or whatever and perfectly happy to go back to the ranch. And, you know, he doesn't seem to be one of these guys who, like, when he's not in the NHL is desperately fighting to get back in. I don't know.

Yeah. Trotso, you know, and I guess I'll throw one more team out there if they go out early or certainly if they miss playoffs, but Edmonton. Yeah. I mean, we all thought,

people all had Jay Woodcroft penciled in as Jack Adams. Woodcroft's another guy. He's got two years left beyond this one, though. Yeah, but it's cheap. It's a cheap deal, right? Yeah, that's a team that prints money. I don't know.

I think honestly, like, the one that just jumps out to me is the first one I said. The Anaheim ducks. They're trying to be more serious. They got all these prospects that are really good and all this kind of stuff. It's not working with Aiken's. You know, I don't know that there's any fixing John Gibson at this point, but... No. No, I mean, you have to.

Sue Anaheim's making a change. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I just think, like, Barry Trott seems like the kind of guy that, like, one of the 200 hockey men is kind of all about in a way. Can I throw one more team out there? I don't know. And again. Cat Verbeak have a connection or whatever, but

Well, maybe. Seems like all these guys do. This guy's, according to Kathrenly, signed for years to come at a good rate, but he's, his name's been out there on the hot seat. New York Rangers, Gerard Galand. If they...

I think the Rangers are back to feeling like they're fine now. They're pretty comfortably in a playoff spot, so... But, I mean, Barry Trots, it's... Barry Trots has made some comments about original six teams. Yeah. You're getting the guy who was, you know, you're getting the Islanders guy. You're, I mean... Well, and here's the thing, too.

I'd like, I like Gerard Galant a lot as a coach, so... If you fire Gerard Galant, there's so many fucking taxis in New York, no problem. Yeah, he'll be fine. Yeah. I mean, the thing, if I'm the Rangers, I'm looking at Galank going, if we fire this guy, because according to Capron, they're on the hook for $3.5 million for two more years, but he's getting a job somewhere.

So you're not paying that whole $3.5 million. Yeah, that and also, like, you want to talk about a team that prints money. Yes. Money's no object to the, the, the, James Dolan isn't going to be. Pulling an Aquilino and saying, like, oh, I don't know if I want to pay. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever.

You raise the price. a beer for two weeks at the garden and you're fine. Yeah. One last thing I wanted to talk about here is the Edmonton Oilers, because they are on what I believe is a seven game winning streak, six game winning streaks? They're good again. Not only are they good again, listen to their upcoming schedule. Okay.

Columbus, Chicago, at Detroit, at Philly, at Ottawa, at Montreal, Detroit, the Rangers, Colorado, Philly, Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Boston. That gets you through the end of February. Those next seven. They're going to go like 12 in four or whatever in that stretch, right? They should. Whatever the number of games. They should.

They don't play another good team until the Rangers in three weeks and even, you know, the Rangers you could argue. Yeah. I didn't realize that. Yeah, I mean, and it just started two nights ago with Vancouver, right? They played the Canucks, they beat them in Bruce Boudreau's final game. And it's like Boudreau said. Like, much like the Canucks, the Edmonton Oilers are just like, oh, no, we have nothing but bad teams for like three straight weeks.

It's unbelievable. I think they have a really good chance to like maybe not 13 in a row, but like win 12 out of 13 games here, something like that. Yep. At which point they'll be right into the Pacific mix for... Oh, they'll be on top of the Pacific, I think. There were only four points back of the nights. I didn't realize that's what I'm saying, yeah.

Close. I guess Seattle is first place in that division by points percentage. But yeah, oh, man, after all this, all the hands. hand-wringing and everything. The Oilers are going to finish first in that division, aren't they? Yeah, I guess, like, this is why nobody looks at strength of schedule in the NHL, but maybe this is maybe like why they should a little bit, you know? Yep. Just because, like, I'm looking here, and, like, the Oilers, when they were losing all those games,

they were losing all those games to, like, pretty good teams. Their recent losses were to the Kings, the Avalanche, Seattle. Winnipeg, like, okay, Vancouver, fair enough. But like, since December 21st, they've, they only have one, two, three, four regulation losses. That's, no. Again, like, does them, like, they can wail on bad teams and lose to good teams, like, does that portend good things for the playoffs? Not particularly. But, like, all you're going to do is put yourself in.

a good position. And if the oilers are in a situation where, you know, they, they get whatever, 22 points of the next 25 or whatever it is, like turn out the lights in that division, you know, like, and it's totally within their capability to beat the bag of all these teams, right? Like, it's, it's that simple. And I did read that, like, uh, Evander Cain's, uh, Evander Cain's bankruptcy trial is going to be happening for the next little while?

It's going to be happening next week. Apparently he said he's going to be there. He's going to attend it in person. Yeah, you kind of have to, I think. Yeah. Well, I mean, and this is a trial. It's like a, I mean, it's like a civil trial,

but also not. Anyways, apparently it is also the sort of thing that very often gets settled at the last minute, very often. It's like a game of chicken. You get right up until it's time to go in the courtroom and you figure it out. So it is quite possible he won't miss time. He's definitely missing Wednesday's game at a minimum. Well, I guess that's tonight. But I'm just reading the, I'm just reading the headline here. He's missing tonight's game for sure. I don't think they're going to need him against Columbus at home. That story is completely bizarre, by the way. We won't get into it, but holy smokes that the details of that are wild. Yeah. But yeah, I don't think they're going to miss them too bad against Columbus at home, personally. Probably still a favorite in that game. Maybe just a slight one.

And then, yeah, they host Chicago on Saturday. Should be another easy W. So, yeah, I just wanted to say, like you said, for all the hand-w. And including I wrote the article, like, boy, these guys got to get their shit together. like two weeks ago. And then they immediately win six games. They were like, okay, Ryan. You're welcome.

We'll do it. Boy, this guy's really smart. We should start winning games. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, and they haven't scored fewer than four goals in any one of those games. Yeah. It's pretty good.

They are. That's right where you want to be. This is going to be, they're going to get to play L.A. again in the first round. And their path out of the division might be L.A. Seattle. Yeah, straight back to a... But that feels okay to me. And hey, look at the Islanders.

You make two conference finals in a row. You're great. You're set up forever. That's right. Yeah. So, all right. Ken Holland knew what he was doing after all. Yeah, that's right.

Why don't you hit him with some plugs? You find me on the athletic this week. I have already... Today I had my post where I am trying to build the best possible roster I can build under the cap for three years from now. So I'm looking ahead in the future, which means I don't get to use entry-level deals. It's very, very easy to make a cap-compliant all-star team if you use entry-level deals or like Patrice Bergeron type short-term things.

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That's, again, we encourage people to make this the number one, Sean McIndoo podcast that they listen to. But it's, you know, Mendez is the backup. Like, you got to have, like, you know, it's, you need the depth, almost a one-a situation. but he knows this place. He's said that. He's, you know, he's aware. I got him running scared. You do.

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