Puck Soup - Rachel Doerrie

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

The boys discuss the aftermath of the Mike Babcock firing and the controversy over his abuse of Mitch Marner; the breaking news on Bill Peters; the surging Sharks and Stars; the Robert Bortuzzo suspension and how to fix Player Safety; and welcome the great Rachel Doerrie to discuss her time in NHL player personnel evaluation, sports science and trying to change the game. Plus, a Puck Soup Thanksgiving Parade quiz! Sponsored by Seat Geek and Manscaped.

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Greg Wyshinski of ESPN, the Worldwide Leader in Sports. Coming to you live from suburban Chicago, part of the Chicagoland area. Yeah, that's where I am. I'm Ryan Lambert.

I'm at my apartment that I live at. Sean McAndoo in Ottawa at the Puck Soup recording studio in my dining room. And you're in Puck Soup. I will say that fans of dogs barking during the podcast are probably going to like this one. We bought sneakers to meet her cousins, aka Ruby's dog. she grew up with, plus a rescue dog named Simon, who's the sweetest little guy. And yeah, they all fucking hate each other. It's pretty great. Simon and sneakers get along together, but the other two dogs that live in this house and sneakers are not fans of each other. And I will

say this, the extra stress of the situation is that it's sneakers's fault. Like she's being a total dickhead to these dogs. And that's the real crushing part. It's like when you, you go to like, school and you hear that your kid got into a fight, not saying this ever happened to my kid, and then you find out that it's like your kid's the instigator, should have got in the two minutes. It's the same kind of situation with this dog. I feel really bad about it. Sounds like somebody is ready for a head coaching career in the NHL. I need her to list all of the dogs in the house from the dog who chases the ball best to the dog that doesn't give the best effort,

and then we'll go from there. But King of Transitions brings us to one of many of the incredible stories that has happened since our last episode, which is the Bostonian-like trashing of Mike Babcock as he leaves town. I have to hand it to the Toronto media. You maybe are at doing your friends to the south

in throwing somebody under the bus after the bus has already left. This week's big, Big nugget was the psychological warfare waged by Mike Babcock, who, by the way, went to McGill for sports psychology. Don't know if you guys knew that. In having Mitch Marner, correct me if I'm wrong on this story. He had Mitch Marner as a rookie list all of his teammates from the ones who give the most effort to the ones that don't. That's right.

And then shared that with Nazim Kadri, who, oh, I mean, shared that with the people. And allegedly, Tyler Bowdo. Ozak. Those were the two. Share that with the people at the bottom of the list. Yeah. I will say this first about Mike Babcock in this situation. This is dumb. It is divisive. I see in no way, shape, and form how this could possibly have helped the Leafs. But I do respect the abject sinister nature of what he's done here in trying to motivate veteran players by basically sacrificing the reputation of a star rookie in the process.

There's a certain, I appreciate the Lex Luthorism here aspect I have to admit personally. Oh, I think it sucks. I think it's like borderline abusive to be like, hey, it's just between you and me, baby. And then, you know, share it, like, post it online or whatever the fuck. You know, it's obviously shitty. And you can tell it's obviously shitty because nobody in the hockey media is to not one person is like, you know, maybe not the worst way to motivate. No, everybody's like, yeah, this was really bad to do. Like, I don't know what he was thinking. Yeah. And it's, it's weird because it seems like stunning and yet also probably not. Like, I haven't, like, I haven't seen anybody defend it, but I also haven't seen anybody say, like, I have never heard of anything like this. This is so out of character for.

NHL coach. In fact, there's a bunch of people who've invoked names like Mike Keenan and stuff like that saying that sounds like the sort of thing that they would have done too, not that they necessarily did, but that there's just certain guys. It's in their wheelhouse, yeah. It's interesting because you always hear about players not liking coaches, you know, and this guy's not that players couldn't stand them, but we very rarely get this kind of detailed look at something like that. And it's been interesting because I am not sure if I can recall a case of a coach being fired and having this many sound bites floating around from the players themselves in the days afterwards that make it clear that they really didn't like this guy.

Like I don't feel like anyone's, they're not necessarily knifing him on the way out the door, but just the comments about Sheldon Keefe and how, like, like, oh, it's going to be fun to play hockey again, and he's going to actually listen to us and let us, you know, like it's, it feels, maybe it's just because I'm a leaf fan of paying closer attention, but it feels like this is above and beyond what you, what you usually get. So it's very clear that, that, yeah, Babcock was not well liked. Something like this would certainly, uh, contribute to that. But don't you think ultimately this just, I mean, it's, it's clearly part of a pile of. on, and rightfully so. I mean, the guy got fired and, you know, he comes in writing on a huge ego and then fails. So I think that any time you have that happen, it's going to be a pile on.

But don't you think that, don't you think a lot of the reaction to this is less about, you know, the act itself and more about let's just see how much fucking dirt we can pile on this guy's grave? Well, yeah, I mean, the fact that this came out when it did. And I, like, let's, let's be clear on how this came out because there's, there's this implication that everyone in the Toronto media already knew about this and they only talked about it after he was already gone, which is certainly something that does happen in the media world. But in this case, at least, the guy who reported it, Terry, Terry Coshan at the, at the Toronto Sun, he was very clear when he wrote about it on the weekend. He said, I only heard about this a couple days ago. So clearly somebody with the Leafs or somebody who was close to the situation decided to spill this to the media. Right. And then they ran with it.

Like it wasn't a case where this wasn't the old like, oh, well, here's a story I heard three years ago. And you're sitting there going, well, why didn't you tell us that story three years ago then? Because it seemed like it would have been newsworthy. In this case, at least with the Big Marner story, it sounds like this was something that only came out, which means somebody either in the organization or close to Mitch Marner or who had been close to the situation at the time it happened, decided that now was a good time to put it out there and probably did so knowing how bad it would make Mike Babcock look. Thanks, Paul. The thing I want to say about it too, though, is like all this stuff coming out after the fact and that kind of thing.

Like, yeah, it's a little bit throwing a guy under the bus. but also it's like, well, look, there is probably a pretty vocal segment of the Maple Leafs fan base who is like, you know, it's the lazy player's fault. It's not Genius Coke Mike Babcock's, you know, like it's not his fault. They're underperforming. And so like now somebody has to go, no, like this is why we all hated this guy's fucking cucks. Like, yeah. It could be. And also, and I'm not going to, I don't want.

want to get into too much speculation over where the story came from. Sure. I'll just point out that there were two other players named as being directly involved, and the Leifes did play Colorado on Saturday. Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too. Yeah, I don't think that was too much of a lot. It may not necessarily have been somebody directly inside the Leif's organization at this time. But even if it wasn't, like, they're, again, like just the comments and quotes,

like usually you get at least the standard like, hey, this is a reflection on all of us and it's tough to see anybody lose. And I think like we kind of got that from Tavares a little bit playing the captain's role. But I, other than that. Yeah, Tavarez was like, I didn't like hate him. I mean. Yeah. But everybody else is like, I didn't hate him, hate him.

Yeah. Everybody else is like, I don't know what it is. It's just the last few days like I'm happy to wake up in the morning and I don't want to quit my job and go work in the mill anymore. Yeah. Tavara is pulled the, I'm a well wisher in that I do not wish him any specific. harm. Right. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. So, um, yeah. Sean, you bring up an interesting point though. I mean, like, how, if, if this was Keenan or if this was Ken Hitchcock, right? And if this wasn't Babcock where something like this is used as a needle to puncture the myth balloon, right? You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. Like, would we be seeing the story any differently? Well, I mean, here, here's what I'll say. I think we would be seeing the story differently if the Leafs had won. And if the Leafs were winning right now, I mean, we probably would never have heard this story. But if we did years down the line, it'd be viewed differently. And the example of that that's kind of sticking with me over the last few days is another one of the things that's come up after he was fired is people looking back at him not putting Jason Spetz in the lineup against the senators on opening night. If people don't remember this, the Leafs are hosting the Senators on opening night.

Jason Spetsa, obviously a longtime. Senator Star has just signed with the Leafs. He's a hometown kid. It's his, in theory, debut as a Maple Leaf. He's going to do it on Hockey Night Canada in front of his old team. And Babcock leaves him out of the lineup. And then dresses him the next night and basically says, well, we got a rotation of fourth line guys. And a lot of people were like, well, if you got a rotation, why wouldn't you put the veteran in the game?

that he clearly wanted to play. And a lot of people now are viewing that as this was just classic Babcock power trip. He just had to be a jerk for the sake of it. That's a great way to lose the room and all of that. And yeah, it probably is all of those things. But if the Maple Leafs were in first place in the Eastern Conference right now, people would be looking back at that and going, that was a great moment. Mike Babcock demonstrated to this young team that nobody's above the team and it's all about

winning and it's all about having the best lineup in any given night and nobody has anything that they didn't earn and blah blah blah blah blah blah there's ways that you can always twist this stuff when it works but when it doesn't work it looks awful and but that's the point though like it didn't work because because he did this shit like he's not a master motivator stories do you think there must be yeah like in this rate in this ballpark i mean that guy was hated by his players always right up until it was time to get their Stanley Cup rings. Right. And so, you know, any stories that we have heard about, about Bowman are always like kind

of tinted through, yeah, but he knew what he was doing because it worked. And, and, you know, with Mike Babcock, maybe it did work for a while. Maybe, I don't know, maybe this, this whole incident helped Mitch Marner get to a, I don't know. It doesn't sound like it. Well, Damien Coxian on that one right. Yeah. Damien's theory is that since Marner had a great start to his career being that he's got God-giving talent and played with John Tavares, that obviously it's Babcock's psychological warfare that made him the player that he is today.

Well, there you go. The other theory that's floating around out there and that it's at least interesting is a lot of people are looking back going, maybe now it makes a lot more sense that all of these young Leaf Star players seemed to really want to get maximum money and not take any kind of home-tenths. discount discount and not kind of give the, yeah, maybe if you really hate your boss and you hate coming into work, that might explain why you would drive a harder bargain when it comes to some of that stuff. So I don't know. It's, it doesn't sound like it was a good situation. So now Sheldon Keefe gets to come in and be the good cop. And we'll see that we're two games in. The Leafs have looked pretty good in both games, one, two games. So everything's great. if they go on another losing streak, suddenly it's going to be, oh, the inmates are running the asylum and maybe Babcock had the right ID and all of that.

Like, it's just one of those things where it's like we look at the win-loss record first and then we retcon the narratives to fit the behaviors, which is probably the wrong way to do it, but it's always how we do it. That's the absolute truth. I mean, listen, I've said on this show many times, I am not a Mike Badcock super fan, right? Like, I think that his reputation is really overinflated, to the point of almost being fraudulent. But I think he's a good coach. I lobbied for him to win the Jack Adams in 2017 because I thought he did that good of a job with the Leafs that year. But the rest of it, you could say, yeah, maybe not so good. And especially with some of his personnel decision, especially apparently with what was going on behind the scenes.

but I do think that clearly the needle is all all the way in the red right now on the fucking trashing of Mike Babcock. I feel like there's going to be a boomeranging back at some point, but right now it is just like DefCon 5 as far as the amount of shit he's taking as a coach. So I guess my question is, is it enough where his reputation has taken too much of a hit where like, you know, I saw Jeff Baker of the Seattle Times be like, it could still be Babcock here in Seattle. but does this affect it at all? Or is the myth of Mike Badcock still in place and people are going to see this as a Toronto problem? No, I don't think it's going to be a Toronto problem, but I think it could be a short-term problem. This is the sort of thing that if I was a team, if I'm the Nashville Predators and I was really thinking about firing Peter Lavalette and hiring Mike Babcock, I might be more hesitant to do that right now. I might sit there and go, you know what, we need to let this cool off a bit.

but if I'm in the 2020 off season and I need a coach, I'm not sure that I'm going to be too concerned, especially because by that point, he'll be able to say, you know what, I went off, I went skiing, I went hunting, I thought about it, I realized I did make some mistakes and I'm a new guy now, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But it's just, it's, it is interesting because even like Babcock is like

kind of texting out these, these responses to reporters. And according to him, at least, he says that he apologizes. which and and and then brandon chanahan said that i guess loo lammarillo got involved so that that shows you that this was a big deal because mike babcock doesn't strike me as an apology sort of guy uh let's just say he seems like the sort of guy who who just does what he thinks his best and and then that's that's how it goes so the fact that he either understood or was made to understand that he had screwed up uh it kind of gives you a sense of of how rough this was. And I just, you know, and as I said on Twitter, all my sympathy to Mitch

Marner as somebody who spends an inordinate amount of time making ranked lists of people and then getting criticized for it, I really emphasize with him the, the plate of having your rankings carved up in front of you. Would you hire Mike Babcock if you were a GM, Ryan? No. You know, I just don't think, well, okay. If I'm a GM of, say, a typical NHL team, I probably don't. But I think that Mike Babcock's whole bullshit kind of works with more veteran guys, which is what, say, Seattle is in line to get in a couple of years. So, like, if I'm Seattle, I'm probably thinking about it just, A, you know, there is that

name recognition, and B, like, he has a proven track record of getting success with, let's say, more veteran teams. Yeah. Although the weird thing about that is like, you're right, that's what he did in Detroit. That's kind of what he did in Anaheim. Certainly Team Canada was always just packed with. And early on, well, like, I'm talking about the first year in Toronto, though. Like, yeah.

That was more of a veteran team than, you know, the influx of kids they eventually got. Yeah, well, it was just, it was kind of weird because the thinking when they first hired Mike Babcock in Toronto, the thinking was, okay, this could be a great hire eventually, but, you know, they're in rebuild mode. They're in, like, climbing out of the ashes right now. Is he going to be the right coach for that? Yeah, he'd be great when they're good and they've got talent and they're ready to be a cup contender, but can he get them there?

And in hindsight, he did a perfect job getting them there. And then once they were there, he was the absolute wrong guy. And you're right. It was, the Leafs are an unusual contender in that they're much younger, especially as far as their key players, than a typical contender would be. But, yeah, I mean, I still think if I'm. a Nashville or a San Jose or somebody where the window is open right now, yeah, I might, I, I, I could probably talk myself into it, even though, you know, there's going to be better candidates out

there, I would imagine. Like we've said on the show before, like, he is overrated, but he's not, like, a bad coach or anything. Like, he's just not a top three coach in the world. Is he a top eight coach? Yeah, probably. So, but like, you know, the idea that we're putting them on a Scotty Bowman level or a Joel Quentville level, like, I just don't buy it. I just feel like he has been one of the luckiest sums of bitches in this game. Yeah, for sure. As far as, like, the opportunities that he's gotten and the people that he's worked with. And I think the fact is that he's been exposed, especially as a postseason coach, since Nick Littstrom retired.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's like, it's hard for me to jive with that. But I agree with you, though. Like, the pile on is a little bit too much right now as far as. he being a shit coach. And the other thing is, as far as how much this sticks to his reputation, one two-minute sound bite from Mitch Marner can make a lot of this go away. Like if Mitch Marner were to come out and say, you know what, I wasn't comfortable with it at the time. It was a rough moment, but I do think ultimately it helped me or Mike Babcock did more, you know,

did more to help me than than to harm me. And I'm the player I am now, partly, because he took a hard line. Like, if he says something like that, that kind of gives the blank check to a whole bunch of GMs to go forget about it. I bet he's very inclined to do that for Mike Babcock, his close personal friend. He may or may not be. And that's the other thing is that he's not, because he's injured right now, he's not, you know,

having to talk to the media all the time. So they haven't really got that directly from him. But, yeah, it's, it's been an interesting week in Toronto. Like I, I, you're right. Like you kind of mention it, Greg, like we expect this these days when somebody gets, somebody with a big name and a big reputation gets fired that the knives or portrayed or whatever that the knives kind of come out. But this has been different, or at least it feels a little bit different because I think

a lot of these stories weren't known, or at least no one specifically enough to report on. And now they're coming out. That brings up a final point about this. I think is interesting. Bob McKenzie, according to this one tweet that I see, it was on TSN 1050 recently and says he doesn't like dropping stories about coaches when they're fired because it's piling on. You can't report it right after it happens for access privacy,

right after the incident happens for access privacy reasons, can't report it after because it's piling on. When's the right time to expose a story like this? Like for those, I goof on the ones who knew and didn't say anything because I just hate the fucking, you know, thing that a lot of reporters, a lot of very senior reporters do where it's like, well, I knew this news before it came out. And I'm going to put in this tweet that I knew it, even though I didn't report it. But at least I knew it.

You should all know that I'm very good at my job. I fucking hate that. And I feel like there's a lot of that going on with this Babcock stuff. But at the same time, like, it is a very sensitive story to try to go after if you're a beat reporter in that city. And here's the thing. It's sensitive for all the, like, I think a lot of fans maybe don't necessarily understand how some of this comes to Because yes, there is all the things that you assume, right? There's access.

There is, like, who am I going to tick off? If I report this story and he's still the coach, am I now, you know, I'm making it difficult to do my own job and maybe I also don't want to deal with him yelling at me or, you know, embarrassing me in front of my... Making you give him a list of all the other beat reporters who were... Yeah, exactly. But there is also an element of this where, like, there's an element of this where something Sometimes you hear things that you can't report on because they're just not because you choose not to because there's just not enough there.

Like there are times where you might hear, you know, a year ago, somebody might go, you might go, oh yeah, Backcock, he's doing pretty good in Toronto. Somebody might go, yeah, but I don't think the players are really like him. You go, oh, yeah, what do you mean? And they go, well, there's just some stuff has gone on. There's been some stuff. Well, you can't, there's nothing there for you to report. There's nothing you can run with as a story. But then a year later, when it comes out, maybe in an offhand way, you say, yeah, I had heard rumblings of this sort of thing.

And now suddenly everyone's jumping on you going, why didn't you report it? Why didn't you? Well, because hearing rumblings or hearing pieces of something is not enough to actually go and put something in a newspaper or on a website or on Twitter or wherever it is. So I do feel like, yeah, absolutely, it does happen sometimes that people just bag something because for, I don't know, of their own self-interest. But also sometimes you just don't have enough to go out as a story until somebody gets more and is able to confirm it. And that's just kind of how the job works. Yeah.

You know, CJ had CJ compile the list. And he said that, sorry, Sean McKenzie, you are the least motivated guy in the media. I'd fucking love to have seen that. I just want it. I wanted Toronto list. He'd be the snitch. It would be Myrtle. No.

No. Rittles Company, man. Absolutely right. No, Babcock, what are you going to do? I think at the end of the day, like I said, it's a pile on right now. There's a lot there. But no one, he dug his own grave. You know, no one's going to say that Mike Babcock got the shaft.

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It's waterproof as well so you can use it in the shower. Are you guys shaving the shower guys? By the way, I'm not talking on the downstairs. I'm talking on the upstairs. No. Yes, 100% shaving the shower. Very interesting. I, as you know, for a while, Sean Leahy was my hetero life partner on the road, and he was a shave in the shower guy.

And I never really liked it because I always found it too difficult to keep the little mirror unfogged. And I certainly wasn't going to do it freehand. But then I shaved in the shower recently. when we were taking our vacation, and I found it to be like the tightest, greatest, closest shave I ever got. So I may have to change my habits here. Is that how you find it? Yeah. And no cleanup. And also, I don't need a mirror. My chin and jaw have not moved in many, many years. They're still in the same place. And I'm not doing like any sort of fancy styling. Shave in the shower, step out, clean it up a little bit if you need to. And then you're all good to go.

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not only because of the subject matter, but because it's not a story that's really broken all the way yet as we do the podcast on this Tuesday before Turkey Day in America. That'd be Bill Peters being accused by Akeemalu, who, We played for Peters with the Rockford Ice Hogs, the AHL affiliate of the Chicago Blackhawks in 2009, 2010. Putting on Twitter last night, not very surprising the things we're hearing about Babcock. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Same sort of deal with his protege in Calgary. Dropped the end bomb several times towards me in the dressing room in my rookie year because he didn't like my choice of music.

So on and so forth. As we've done the podcast, the Calgary Flames last night, didn't make Bill Peters available after their game against the penguins. Bradshire Living instead met the media and gave the, we're going to investigate this platitudes you'd expect. The National Hockey League came out with a statement right as we were about to do the show that stated, the behavior that has been alleged is repugnant and unacceptable. We have no further comment until we have an opportunity to look into the matter more,

kind of getting ahead of the story and doing what the NHL does in these situations, which is pay lip service to a problem, but probably never doing anything themselves, but instead have the team handle it. It's a nasty one, folks, and I'm not quite sure how this is all going to work out, if proven true. Yeah.

So, I mean, this is, as you say, it's a weird one to talk about now because we're doing this Tuesday morning, and there's a good chance that by the time people hear this, the story may have taken more turns, and we may already be out of date on it. it's it's the kind of thing yeah that they're going to investigate presumably that's going to involve talking to members of that team it's it Akimalu didn't go he didn't go into detail in the tweet and I don't think he's at least publicly gone into any more detail about the circumstances around the incident he says it happened in the dressing room which implies that other people would have been around or maybe even the entire team would have been there in which case there will absolutely be people who heard it and they will tell the flames or the

NHL that. And if that's the case, then I think that's going to be the end of Bill Peters in Calgary. I don't know how you can have a coach stay on the job under those circumstances. If it was some other set of circumstances, if it was more of a private conversation, obviously that gets more complicated. it, we'll have to see. It's going to be something that it's, you know, you don't want to read, give too much credit for putting out PR statements. It does sound like it's being taken seriously and they're going to look at it. But yeah, if this ends up being verified and

other people come forward and saying, yeah, I heard this, then I have a very hard time imagining that Bill Peters can continue in this role. what do you think Ryan? Yeah, no, I think that all sounds correct. Greg, you put up a poll on Twitter earlier today of like, what do you think is going to happen with this? And one was, you know, act like nothing happened, which they can't do. And the second one, which I kind of think would happen if maybe the team was playing better, is, you know, public apology, press tour kind of a thing.

and, you know, I'm a different guy now, all that kind of shit. And then, you know, the last one was firing him. And I think the combination of how they're not good this year and the, you know, the whole circumstances around the allegations, which, you know, I would have no reason to disbelieve, certainly. But, yeah, I think that just makes it kind of a no-brainer for the flames. It wasn't so much ignore it as it was deny it. And I think that, you know, going under the auspices for a moment that this is true, if you could be, if it's a one-on-one conversation and Bill Peters knows it's a one-on-one

conversation, you can deny it. And then it becomes a he-said he said, he said. Right. And you move on. But then you run the risk of, A, someone of having overheard it, or B, this being perhaps not the only instance in which the word was used in the life. of a guy. He said several times. Like, he even said, like,

Akeem Ali, or Alu said, like, several times. He didn't say it happened once. And everybody was like, what are you doing? You know. Yeah. But do you, do you think that this could,

again, we talked about this with the Don Cherry stuff and really cutting to the bone on, on why these decisions are made. It's very hard to not see the business aspect of this, where your team is in a spiral. and your coach may have just done something that, I don't know, could potentially offer you cover to fire him. I mean, it's not impossible to see a scenario play out that way, is there?

No, that's why I think it's a pretty likely outcome is because it's like, well, you know, earlier this week, True Living said, you know, we're not firing the coach and we're not trading any major players. And it's like, well, then it sounds like you don't have any plans to fix any anything that's wrong with your team is what it sounds like to me. But, you know, now, well, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about how bad it looks if you fire a coach who got you to first in the West last year. Yeah, I wrote a post that went up like a few hours before this story broke, where I was listing coaches, like, who's going to be the next

coach fired after Mike Babcock? And Bill Peters was prominently on the list. So it was, uh, it was Yeah, it shouldn't make a difference, but it probably does. If the flames are first place overall and they're rolling, yeah, maybe it does get viewed differently, but they're not. And yeah, it's, I, if there's confirmation, and we'll underline the if, because this is, again, a story with moving parts. And, you know, it's a serious accusation, and we don't want to go and convict anyone before. before it's time to do that. But if it does turn out to be to be verified, I...

That's it. You can't. I would, I would hope it's, I would hope that's it. Maybe, you know, I've, I've, my capacity to be surprised by how this league works sometimes is, is, you know, it wouldn't, nothing that they can do would really stun me. But I would be surprised, because this is, it's an extremely

serious accusation, not just what he said, which obviously in any context would be awful, but it sounds at least like this was said, like in anger, singling out a player potentially in front of his hit.

Like, there's no, there's no way you can come back and say, well, it was a misunderstanding or it was he to the moment. Like, there's, there's just nothing.

Not that there would be under other contexts, but there's just, you don't even have a starting point here if it played out the way it sounds like from the limited information we have the way it sounds like it did. And oh boy, it knives out, not just a Ryan Johnson film coming out this week. It is what is happening to Bill Peters as we speak in this podcast. Sean McMorrow, who played for Peters with the Rockford Icehogs in 2008, 2009,

has hit Twitter. He's a pro player that's a, bounced around a little bit in the world. If you think Mike Commodore has had harsh words for Babcock, you are in for a treat to hear what I would have to say about Bill Peters. Worst human being to ever coach me, treated me terrible on an AHL team where I won a league award for community service. Jeez.

So here we go, baby. Floodgates are open. Kind of crazy. He had a lack of success in Carolina. Maybe, and this is just me, maybe they just needed a different coach. You know, honestly, well, I was thinking about that, Because when all this came out last night, I was like, oh, yeah, didn't, I feel like I heard everybody in Carolina hated his guts.

Yeah. And then they bought in an ex-player that everybody fucking liked, and they became a goddamn juggernaut. Yeah. You know, like I, you, you wonder, right? Because, you know, like the extent to which players hating a coach matters is, is clearly, like, you know, is clearly. you can see it in the numbers with Babcock with, with Peters where like they're just like, I don't,

I don't exactly know how to phrase it, but like there seems, it seems like there's a tangible, like, you know, statistical return on that. Two things on this, by the way.

First of all, and I think, Sean, you'll agree. One of my favorite things about hockey is the, is the, um, good cop,

bad cop hiring and firing of coaches. This has been a tradition for years where you bring in the chask masker scumbag, and then the guy that replaces him is like a dude they used to play with five years ago as like a sixth defenseman. Like a total players guy, a dude they all like, the assistant coach they all like. Or it's the assistant coach that they all liked. Yeah, the good cop. Yeah. Like I remember as a kid, the first time I ever realized this was that growing up when the Devils bought in Tom McVee to be the head coach a few times.

times like Lou bought him in. And I had no idea who Tom McVee was, except for this reputation that he had that he was like a fucking drill sergeant, right? And then whatever he get fired, they bring in a guy and it's like, this is the players coach. That dynamic in hockey has always been really fascinating to me. And it kind of played out, I think, in Carolina pretty well where they bring in the Rod Brin de place. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. because I remember the prior to Mike Babcock, the most hated coach I've ever seen in Toronto was Pat Burns by the end. In fact, there was a story that, I don't even know if it was his birthday or something,

but that like the players got together and had a cake delivered to his hotel room. And when he opened it up in the icing on the cake, it said, We all hate you. We all hate you, yeah. Which is subtle, but seems negative. Which is crazy. And then they brought him Mike Murphy, who was like the assistant that everyone, liked and they were terrible for two years. It was just a disaster. And then they brought him

Pat Quinn, who was, you know, a little, again, not always a player's favorite guy. And they were good again. So, you know, it's, yeah, you kind of, it's this yin and yang, you sort of go back and forth. Yeah. And look, I mean, any coach is going to have some, some guys that like him and some that don't. And I can see this kind of can of worms opening up where now this is turning into the airing of the grievances for every player who played for a coach they didn't like. And we should just, you know, we should be a little careful with that because especially when you're talking about AHL guys where if you're a coach in the AHL where some guys are fast track to the big leagues and some guys just aren't, some guys just aren't going to make it,

I don't care how wonderful a human being you are. There's going to be some of those guys who look back and resent you and feel like they didn't get a shot and feel like they weren't treated well and that it costs them a career. and they're going to hate you. And that, to me, you know, just hearing that somebody was a jerk or somebody wasn't your favorite coach in the minors is, I hope we don't lump all of this in together with what Akima Lou is talking about, which is a very different class and a very different level of behavior. Yeah. But I think it continues, though, the probably like decade-long trend now of this shit's just not going to fly anymore when it comes. to coaches and their and their bullshit.

Whether it's as extreme as Bill Peters' alleged bullshit or as, as, as, almost by the numbers, psychological warfare bullshit of Mike Babcock, it just seems like that, that type of coach can no longer exist in this modern athlete era. We'll see. Yeah, but. Yeah, it's all these entitled millennials who don't like to be emotionally abused, right? Bill Belichick's the, uh, the, uh, the exception of the rule.

That, I mean, that guy can palpatine it up as much as he wants. But again, it's because he, you know, wins constantly. I think that's the only difference between him and these other guys. All right. One more topic before we get to our guest. That's the Robert Bortuzzo suspension and its various fallout. I said four games when I saw the act after I saw the injury and reconsidered the intent on the play. I'd go six.

I know that's probably way lower than a lot of people wanted. Should have been 10. I saw people saying 15 for Bertuso for what he did, like with some sort of Vachakta math equation that they were doing. I know you wanted 10. I know that you and I disagree. I think a lot of players say to do stuff. That's understandable.

Sean, what did you think as far as suspension? I mean, I thought it was low, but I think most of the suspensions are low. And I think in this case, particularly because he has a history of, of doing this same thing. And it was, when you look at the play, like, it's the first cross-check. I know it sounds ridiculous to say where he cross-checks a guy face first into the crossbar. Like, that still kind of falls into the category of a hockey play, even though it's an illegal hockey play that is a penalty.

But, you know, that kind of stuff happens in the crease in front of the net. But then to look over, see the ref is calling a penalty, give this exaggerated reaction, and then very clearly make the calculation that, well, I'm going to get my money worth and deliver a shot that is intended, maybe not intent to injure, but it's intent to hurt. Like you're doing, like, this is like, all right, and I think there was also maybe a feeling like, like Arvinson, it kind of sold it a little bit. And so it was sort of like, all right, you're going to sell it. I'm going to give you something to sell. I think there was even under the standards of what the Department of Player Safety typically does, there was room to go higher.

here. But it's, it was within range of what they typically give for, like four games is a very big suspension under the current system. And, and I just, it feels like every time something happens, everybody's upset that the number is too low. And at some point, we just got to go, like, this is the system. Like, if, if you want, and, and I'm not saying that we just throw up hands and accept it. I'm saying this now in mid-November is not the time to be mad that the suspensions are too low. Like, like, to give you an example, I think the NHL's current point system is stupid. I think they should go to a three-point system. I think it's ridiculous that we give loser points for losing and overtime, and that some games are worth more than

others. I feel very strongly about that. Some people agree with me. Some people don't. I think I'm right. But when I'm watching the Leafs play and they win, in regulation, I don't sit there and go, how come they didn't get three points for that win? That's crazy. I'm really mad about that because I know how the current system works. And it would be ridiculous of me to expect in the middle of a season that the system would somehow act differently. This is how it works now. I think it could work better in a different way, but we don't have the different way. So we've got what we've got now. And the Department of Player Safety, I would like to see bigger suspensions. I would love to see 10 games for something like this.

But that's not how it works right now. And the reason it doesn't work, that way is not because there's three or four guys of the Department of Player Safety who just really like violence. It's because their bosses are 31, soon to be 32 GMs who don't want heavy suspensions for this stuff. And until that changes and they get a directive, I'm sure these guys would be more than happy to drop 10 game bombs on people. If that was the directive they were given by their bosses, it hasn't happened. That's not what the system is. And I don't understand why we insist on doing this dance every single time there's a suspension. that falls well within the range of what we should expect, given the entire history of how this has worked for years.

That's a great point. And I think if you want to be outraged about a cross-check discipline and it being too light, go back to the Brock Nelson one that he had two years ago, where, like Sean said, it was the exact same type of situation, cross-check, down to the ice, and then he gave him several shots after he was down on the ice to his back. It's kind of like the Bortuzzo move. that was a fine. And so if your starting point is a fine, and then you go to four,

well, that's a pretty significant increase in the world of player safety. If that had been maybe a game or two, and then you go up to six or seven for this, then it makes a bit more logical sense within the parameters that they've set. But the fact of the matter is that a lot of the shit that should get a suspension gets a fine. And that's the part of, like, I'm a player safety defender. I think they do a good job for the most part. But there's a lot of shit that just gets fine that I don't understand why the fuck it's a fine. I really don't.

Yeah. And I think part of that is they've over the years kind of evolved into this reluctance to necessarily give one game. It seems like there's this feeling that if we're going to give something, it should be multiple games. And if not, if it's going to be one, then let's just do a fine. And a lot of times they look at, well, was there a penalty in the game? And if the guy got ejected, that's kind of like he got a game already. So, and yeah, I mean, this is, again, like, I'm not sitting here saying that we should just shrug and say, oh, this is just how it is. You know, absolutely.

Get out there. Bang the drum. Say that the numbers across the board need to be higher. We need to have a different way to doing this. But first of all, understand the root of the problem, which is, it's the GMs and the teams. And to some extent, also the Players Association, although they're in a weird spot where they, you know, they have. have to defend their guys and they have certain obligations and as far as appeals processes and that kind of thing. It's not just the Department of Player Safety. They're running the

system that the league wants. And under that system, this is probably a four-game suspension. Well, so the other problem with it, obviously, is that, you know, when people were like, this should, you know, this should be five games, this should be seven games, whatever people said, there were a bunch of chuds on Twitter who were like, well, look, the guy is in the crease. And if you go in the crease and you get shot in the face with a bazooka, that's fine because you were near the goalie. And like, if you don't think that figures into the player safety aspect of it, like, you're, like, that's, I think that's incredibly naive. That, like, well, no, because you say, well, what, it is those guys are all, those guys are all blues fans. And I sit here and roll my eyes at it, but if it's a Maple Leaf who does it tonight,

then it's going to be all Leaf fans who are going to be mad. And, like, everybody thinks we want high suspensions until it's your team. But the thing, it wasn't just Blues fans. It was a bunch of, like, I got like Leafs fans and Flames fans in my mentions because I said like, like, this shit should not be part of the game. And they were like, well, look, you know, you've obviously never played hockey because blah, blah, blah. Right, because these beer league tough guys.

Right, yeah, Beer League tough guys who. play in no checking leagues. But, you know, like, it's a thing where, you know, if you think the people in player safety don't feel the exact same way about a guy being around your goalie in the crease, whatever, like, that's naive. Like, they obviously feel that way because that's how they think the game works. No, that's a fair point. And, you know, that's sort of the neanderthilic guys running the player's safety argument

that a guy like Ken Campbell makes. Yeah. I've always, you know, in fairness, like, I've always thought, I never really understood why they, they don't have that competing philosophy in that room. Well, because to Sean's point, then they'd have somebody going, you know, that should be 10 fucking games. He clearly tried to injure his opponent and succeeded, which and. Yeah, which they should have. I don't, I don't think that, like, I don't think, like, Paul Correa should run player safety. I do like the idea of you hire the hacker to protect your system, right?

I like the idea of there being a guy that played a little dirty, looking at a play and being like, I know exactly what this guy was trying to do here. That's always been something that I'm okay with. But I never understood why they don't have more competing philosophies in that room when it comes to player safety. Then they might start spitting out higher suspension numbers. And if that happens, then the owners start to complain. It's the same idea. Yeah. And also, we don't know what the competing philosophies in the room are.

We assume based on a couple of the guys playing careers. But for all we know, George Perros is that guy going, this should be 10 game. Or Chris Pronger could be that guy or Patrick Burke or wherever it is. But we wouldn't know that because that all takes place in the room. And then ultimately, they have to still come out with a number that fits within the range that their bosses have implicitly given them. And so not just their bosses, though, dude. Like the other thing about this, too, is like people, even Ryan, like saying 10 games, 10 games gets knocked down in a fucking millisecond by a, by our. arbitrator. Like, the initial penalty for this was a fine. And then you go 10 games after a fine.

There's no way that stands up on appeal. And that brings us back to- A repeat offender. I don't think Brock Nelson was. And not just that. There was a threat on Twitter the other day of like, here's all the times Bortuzzo got beat by somebody and just used his stick to like take out his frustration on them. But what the arbitrator is going to look at is the similar incidents and there's not necessarily been a 10-game suspension for cross-checking in that manner. Like, that's the issue. And but to me, what my, my bigger point is, the thing that people seem to miss here is that for all of the heat the NHL takes, fucking give the heat to the PA. Like the P, think about the, the PA exists to argue for less punishment for one player while

representing the player he just put out for a month. How fucked up is that? And so, you know, These players are always talking about policing themselves. It's a buzzword we've heard for a century. Let the game police itself. Well, fucking police yourself then. Like, the PA should be the one arguing for 10, 15 games suspensions for this shit because they also represent the guys getting job in the back by fucking Robert Bertuzzo. Yes.

In the big picture, they should. But when it comes to a, like, I'm sorry, if your employer drops a big suspension and a big fight and takes away a bunch of your money. Your union, which is what the PA is, should have your back without question if you want to go down an appeals process. I do not knock the NHLPA for supporting these guys if they choose to appeal under any circumstances, even in the cases where I don't think the appeal has any merit. That's what they're there for. And I don't think we should be knocking them for taking part in that. Bigger picture in the offseason when it's time to talk about this stuff, should the players be leading the charge to say, hey, let's ramp it

up and make this game safer, absolutely. Specific cases, no, they're a union. You got to have the guys back. All right. Player safety. Oh, I was, I was heartened to see that both Sean and I are on the same page on the asinine eye for an eye suspensions that people bring up. That is just, yeah, it's just a bad idea. My only, without getting into it, if you're somebody who thinks that suspension should just work by you just miss as many games as the guy is injured for. I'm just, just take a minute and actually think about that and how it would work and all of the nightmare scenarios that would come out of that.

And then let me know if you really do think that's the best possible situation. Yeah. Like I said, 97 games is what Joe Thornton would have gotten for the hit on Perron. Sure. If we were doing for that. And the other thing too, that I... And Marty McSorley would have got like three weeks for Tomahawk. talking Donald Bershear over the head.

Yeah, I mean, basically you are determining the length of suspension by the constitution and recovery. And luck. And luck. And flat out of a guy. Yeah. Like one guy goes out for a year and a half because of a concussion. Another guy comes back within two weeks. One could have been much more intentful than the other.

But it doesn't matter because you're judging by that. You know who loves that idea? You know who really thinks that's a great idea? Miles Garrett. thinks that's a fantastic idea. Because he tried to kill a dude on Thursday night football. Yeah, started the next week. And who through some miracle wasn't injured.

Yeah, bad idea. I get the sentiment. I get where it's coming from. But you got to think it through. It's not a good idea. Yeah, not at all. So there's that player safety. All right.

Our guest today is, Rachel Dory. Now, Rachel, you may know, used to work for the New Jersey Devils. Does not anymore. I can touch on that a little bit. She has the Staff and Graph Podcast. She is doing work for York University in their hockey ops department. A real up-and-comer and someone who I think is going to be working very high up in an NHL organization one day because She's brilliant. And she shares a lot of insights about how hockey operations work and then also some talk about GMs and such. And I think you'll dig it.

Rachel Dory, this is a long time coming. When we were both in New Jersey, we talked about doing this when you were in more of a professional capacity in New Jersey. Yes, we actually, we did. I think I was trying to get you to go to Hobbies Deli one day and we would just do a podcast there. In secret. In secret. Right. That's right.

We're going to do a secret podcast. This guy is your voice. As we do this podcast, we are in the Intercontinental Hotel in Toronto on the day of the Hockey Hall of Fame induction. And this hotel was available because it's not a Marriott property. Exactly. Pretty much. So everybody who's in town for the Hall of Fame is staying at all the various Marriott properties. But you were so nice to come downtown on a rainy, shitty, shitty day in Toronto. Oh, yeah. And people forget how to drive here when there's one snowflake on the ground. That's insane to me because that, I mean, that is the knock I always used to give to the people in the D.C. area when I lived in Washington, which is that the minute there's an inch of snow on the ground, it's like abandon your cars.

But you would figure that Canadians would be, first of all, you'd figure they'd all have chains on their tires, which they don't. You're not allowed. You're not allowed in Canada or in Toronto? So when I went to school in Sudbury, you could have chains on your tires because I have seen people do all kinds of crazy things up there that are. definitely illegal. But here, I think it has something to do with the quality of the roads. They don't want chains and stuff. But I'm not even talking about that. I'm talking about it snows. And you have people driving at 150 kilometers an hour. I'm like, it's snowing outside. You don't need to drive that fast. All right. What are you doing with yourself now these days?

I'm back in school. So I'm doing a master's and kind of just figuring out a master's in what? Art? Sports science and analytics. Oh, okay. That was my second choice. Yes. It was a debate between a double in law. and business versus the sports science analytics route. But this route kind of gives me a chance to work with both hockey teams and do some research with them. So I'm coaching with both the men's and women's hockey teams.

And I'm on the ice pretty much three hours a day. Really enjoy it. So make hockey fun again. Indeed. But don't put it on a hat. So the question I have for you is we mentioned law and business, right? So one of the things that people might remember about you or know about you and your interactions with people like me and the rest of the hockey media is that you had designs famously on being the first female general manager in the National Hockey League. Now, to me, if you take into business and law path, well, that's a giant firework in the sky that says, oh, yeah, Rachel's going to be the next female GM in the National Hockey League.

have you soured on this notion? Is it still an aim for you? You've now seen how the sausage is made. And sausage is the operative word. Oh. Yes. Are you still? Because this was the thing.

That was like your calling card. Much like Kyle Dubas is like, I am the analytics guy. You were on track to be the first woman to run an NHL team. Do you still want to do it? Um, I would say I'm not as brash on it as I was before. but it's still something that is a dream of mine. Having a look behind the curtain definitely, I would say it changed my perspective and my view on the hockey world a little bit

and some things that I need to work on professionally, personally, and to develop in order to make it in the hockey world just because of the way that the hockey world is right now. And it doesn't seem to be hurriedly going to. in a direction that maybe doesn't require some personal development and being able to deal with difficult situations. Right. So for me, I think that I think it's important that I broaden my horizon.

So I already have the business background, right? That was my first degree. It's a sports business. So now being able to go and look at the analytics and sports science, I think that it would give me a better perspective on the athlete. so when potentially I get back into a front office, I have an idea of how the body works, maybe something like load management, injury prevention, management, rehabilitation. I think that that's something where in hockey, it's like we have this guy playing with a punctured lung.

And maybe that's not a good idea. Or this guy's playing 30 minutes a night and maybe that's not a good idea. So I think it just, the purpose of this Masters is more to learn an entirely different side of things so that it can be more well-rounded. What if the player is Patrice Bergeron, though? Is that okay then? I mean, I would take Patrice Bergeron on my team eight days a week. With, like, no lungs. Yeah, with actually with no lungs.

Using some sort of breathing apparatus at all times. Exactly. But yeah, I think that when you look at what's going on in the NBA and in Toronto, the famous example is Kauai Leonard and even to a degree Danny Green, I think that that thinking is not really applied in hockey because it's more, you should play through everything and this, that, and the other. And maybe that's not necessarily a great idea. Do you think that's The Next Horizon?

I mean, like, I feel like there's an acknowledgement either superficially or seriously that analytics are important. Well, some people don't believe that. Well, you would be. But at least most front offices seem like they've at least given it some lip service. Yes. But do you feel like that's the next horizon is going to be? be, well, we have a sports scientist on staff, and they're going to tell us how many games

this person should play based on their, you know, their internals. Like, is that going to do the next thing? I think it probably should be because I think when you are looking at building a team, you are building it on the premise of if I get peak performance out of my athletes, this is the team that I will be. But then you forget that you actually have to do work to get peak performance out of those athletes, and that kind of goes by the wayside. So you're building this team on this notion I'm going to have peak performance from my athletes. And then you don't do the work to actually get the peak performance, whether it be coaching them to a style that's conducive to success or playing them appropriate amounts of time or inappropriate situations. And that's part of the research I'm doing with York is they've allowed me to basically have free reign of any data that I want to collect or even like line combinations.

Hey, try this and see what happens. or maybe this guy shouldn't play 27 minutes a night. Yeah. And see what happens. I think that if you're going to build a team, you better make sure that people are performing or have the ability to perform. Otherwise, there's no point in building a team. Right.

So I think. You would think that this would be one of the most popular trends that would ever come down the pike for the players. You figure the players would love this to be a thing that exists in an HL front offices. You'd think they'd be in favor of it, yeah? You would think because I think before there was, this notion of, well, it still is this. I have to play through this. Hockey is a tough, it's a man's sport, like all the other cliches that you can think about, right? And we're

finding out that long term, not a good idea, right? Guys are having to shorten their careers, or you play too much, and then you get burnt out at the end of the year. I think Vasilevsky admitted that he kind of got burnt out. Freddie Anderson has admitted it. I can't imagine how Eric Carlson felt in Ottawa playing nearly 40 minutes a night or whatever it was. But you would think the players would be in favor of it because there's research now that suggests that you, in order to perform at peak performance, you can't be playing past that threshold on a consistent basis, I'd say. So I would say that that's probably something they'll be in favor of, even though there's

still this culture of you must tough it out. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Like, as soon as I said they were in favor, I thought to myself, except for the part where you tell them they can't play. Right. Like, that's the, that's the Rubicon that has to get crossed. It's this idea of like, no, no, no, you don't understand. Like, 77 games, chef's kiss. That's exactly right for you.

But I want to play 82. Well, don't because it's not good for you. Like, that's, to sell that is going to take a, maybe like a generation to sell that. It probably will because when you look at it, think about the. the goalies. We're just in the point now where Boston runs two and the Islanders have run two. But the age of Martan Brodur playing 73 games a year is gone. Yeah, tell me about it. It should be, because nobody should be playing that many games a year as a goaltender.

You're going to be way too tired. Or this, the back-to-back, I'm not a proponent of playing a goaltender twice on a back-to-back unless they only faced like 18 shots the night before. And you know why? You probably didn't work very hard. So go ahead and go out there again. It's defensemen too. I remember when the hawks made all their runs, and, you know, Duncan Keith would play like 30 minutes in a game and people would be like, oh, man, this is incredible.

This is unprecedented. And then, like, Larry Robinson would pipe up and be like, no, you don't understand. Yeah. In the 1980s, that was our average. Yeah. So, I mean, at the very least, maybe the times for some of these guys have come down since what they used to be like, we had Eddie Belfort on the ESPN podcast. And he was talking about, like, oh, 74 games was the norm. And you're just like, that's nuts.

Yeah, like your body is going to hate you when you're 60 years old. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're talking about goalies. We might as well talk about it because it happened only a couple hours before we did this podcast. What did you think of the Cory Schneider thing? I'm not surprised. Yeah. I said it on my podcast, and I've said it privately before.

Those hip injuries are very difficult to come back from. I think probably the only example I can think of of a guy who really came back from it, was Pecoreen, and that guy's a freak of athletic nature anyways. Yeah. Those are super detrimental to goaltending. And I just, from the chances that the devils have been giving up, probably also not conducive to anybody who has had an injured hip. And so for me, it depends.

Like, I don't think anyone's going to pick him up. I think he needs to go down to Binghamton and really find his game. And I don't know if he can do that anymore. because it's not good. He spent the last few years trying to find this game. We didn't have much help in front of him. He didn't. And one of the things I remember hearing about him is that the way that the game has changed,

even in the last few years offensively, where there's just so much more, I think the thing that someone once told me, one of the goalie coaches told me was like there's so much more sort of back and forth movement in the offensive zone. And it's such a more loosey-goosey sort of thing now that we've opened up the slot. and things like that, that if you are limited in your mobility, you're like, you're fucked basically now if you're goal.

You're totally, totally screwed. And that's the thing is laterally before his injury, Schneider was very good. Like when he was acquired by the Devils, he was very good laterally. It was one of his calling cards, right? It's probably why Luongo got pushed out in Vancouver is because he was just so good with that lateral movement

as the game started to go in that direction. As soon as you have a hip injury like that or a groin injury where it really inhibits your ability. to push from side to side, and now you have royal road passes and way more rush chances, and it's just the game is more difficult to play. There are more scoring chances. It's not conducive. The fact that he's, I think, 33 years old also he doesn't help?

No, it doesn't. You don't get better unless your name's Brad Marchand when you're 30 years old. Right. And by better, you mean offensively. Yes. And maybe like 30. I saw another headline recently about, like, Brad Marsan has changed his attitude. his game and has his attitude changed though because he's still a pest it's still a thing where like he

does things i don't know i guess because the bar was set at licking your opponents that anything south of licking your opponents is now seen as like a behavioral change and i'm like that is not a very high bar what a scam you pulled like i'm like i'm going to shoot a man in the back of the head if i do anything that doesn't involve shooting a man in the back of the head then i am a changed person Yeah. Yeah. But that's not a very high bar. No, it's not very high bar at all.

I only made one more. Yeah. So, therefore, if I move forward and don't make them anymore, it's like, what kind of bar is that? How about just don't do it?

Right, don't do it. Yeah. You still have that latent DNA. In a general sense, what surprised you the most about player evaluation when you were in the machine, in the NHL machine?

Were you surprised, you know, were you like, you know, when somebody goes to Washington and they were like, oh my God, I can't believe how like seven generations behind where they should be on things they are. Like, were you like that going in there? There were some things where I'm like, okay, like eyebrow raising.

Yeah. The one thing I give devil's ownership credit for is they actually want to be at the forefront. There's the Sixers guys. Yes, they were in the 76ers, and that has an analytics department that has people with Harvard PhDs in it. So I can't even imagine what the budget is for that department. department. But they actually, I'll give them credit, they want to be there. And for me, the way I look at player evaluation right now is there's still a lot of, I feel this way about this player. This is what I feel. And I'm not like that. Yeah. There's one player that I feel about, and he is in the

Hockey Hall of Fame, so he had to have been pretty good, is Matt Sundy. Right. Right. I feel a certain way about Matt Sundy and he, lo and behold, was very good. And the numbers would back up that. And the numbers would back that up, right? Whereas, like, oh, I can't play this guy because I feel like he's not going to be hard to play against in front of the net. Yeah. What do you mean you feel that way?

Like, where is the tangible evidence in that? I feel like, I feel like that scene in Moneyball is so, it's sort of encapsulated sports for me when he's in the room and he's spouting off numbers and the guy next time spouting off numbers. And then the old guy at the end of the table is like, I saw him. twinkle in his eyes, you know? And it's just like, how do you combat that? Yeah. It's, it's unbelievable. It's one of those things where it's like, if you don't understand, I'm going to ask Pete, right? And he just points over there. But here's the thing, though, like, is there, I know we're kind of shitting on it. But is there sort of a sports whisperer aspects to scouting where there are just some people that have that sixth sense about a person?

I want to believe that there's, you know, somebody who's sniffed Zamboni fumes for the last 70 years, and they just know better than you or I when they see a player that they're going to be that good. Because, I mean, that is kind of how it's been. And that's not to say that it's a good thing or a bad thing, but maybe there's something to it where certain people can look at a guy and be like, nah, he's not made of the stern stuff that's necessary. The stern stuff is something that really bothered me. I'm like, I feel like, I don't care. I don't care. But there are some things.

So I think doing your background research and speaking to a number of scouts, because that's something that I had the ability to do, if you actually do your research on, never mind the numbers and their play on the ice, who they are off the ice, you can get a good sense of the person they're going to develop into and if that personality is conducive to success. Because if this guy doesn't have a work ethic and doesn't show up to the rink on time and all that, like, obviously probably doesn't have the work ethic. So when you say off the ice, you're talking about that.

You're talking about the basics, like when I worked at Burger King in high school, like the people who show up on time for their shift at Burger King, obviously you're going to be better at the job that people that don't. I have spoken to scouts who have sought out their certain draft picks, pee-wee coaches. Yeah. What was this player like then versus what are they like six, seven years later? Because you can get an idea of the growth path. Yeah.

Right? So. And so the thought is if you're a fuck up when you're in pee-wee, you're going to be fuck up now. Or if you're a fuck up when you're in peewee, but you're a really good individual now, you're a leader in the community, you show up. That shows a development curve. If you're still the same guy that you were in peewee, then you're always going to be that guy. Right. That's a pretty big issue. So it's going through and doing that kind of research to marry with what you see. Yeah. Right. To me, I'm a big, and I've always been a big proponent of that's great that you could see it on the

or that's great that you can see it in the numbers in your spreadsheet or in your R studio. But if you can't put it together, it doesn't matter about what you think or what you think because one, the biggest problem we have in hockey right now, and I see it on hockey Twitter all the time, which is, it just pisses me off to no end. Nobody can get along because the analytics people are like, well, my opinion's correct because math. And the other people are like, well, my opinion's correct because eyeballs.

I'm like, we have people scouting who don't have good enough eyesight to have driver's licenses. Like, sorry, but I'm not trusting your eyeballs. And then I personally have done an experiment where I can skew numbers to make pretty much anybody look good. Yeah. So you can skew numbers. Oh, yeah. Right? So unless you can get those people to work together, which Hockey Twitter clearly can't do.

And it's even, it's less so in the front office. there's still a lot of arguing. You're not going to get anywhere. Look, I'm a troll. I want to win arguments. All you got to do is instead of going eight games back, you go seven games back and get that one good eighth game out of the way. And now you've got seven shitty games. Oh, it's amazing.

Yeah, that's all you going to do. We were playing at York, and we've had a segment where we've been unbelievable. And then our last game, we were playing one of the top teams in the country didn't have a great game. I'm like, well, I can just throw that one out and look how great we were. And then you add the other game, and it's all the way in the bottom of the... chart. Right. And, or just, you know.

Or just throw that one out. Yeah, throw out that one game where the dude was Darryl Sittler and then fucking the other ones around it are shitty. So obviously he's shitty. Exactly. You can cherry pick to no end and to say that people don't do that is factually incorrect. So I think until we arrive at a point where the eyeball people trust the numbers people and the numbers people trust the eyeball people, we're getting nowhere.

All right. Last topic. I asked you about this before we got on. on the podcast so you'd have time to prepare. Who is a GM that everybody thinks is shitty that's actually good? Um... I have a name. Can I throw a name out at you and test you?

Yeah. Pierre Dorian. I like what he's done in Ottawa. Yeah. I think he has been put in a non-enviable position. Right. And I think what he's done, like to me, getting Thomas Shabbat to commit to the amount of years that they got him to commit to,

was nothing short of a miracle. And I remember you were huge, I remember looking back recently and like you were really big on the Mark Stone trade, right? Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. Eric Brandstrom is a terrific hockey player. Like, he is going to be a top four NHL defensemen. So that was really good for them.

I forget who their first round pick was. But that, like, to me, what he's done based on the position, he's in, like really good job. Right. I also think that a lot of people shit all over Joe Sackick for the Matt Dushane fiasco. He's turned it around. And I don't think you can make one, take one shot at him right now. The Cadry trades worked out really well for him.

Yep. Right? And it was a UFA that he was likely going to lose. The Sam Gerard, situation is I have no idea how he got him signed to that contract. Yeah. Because it's going to be a steal. It's going to be like a Ryan Ellis type situation.

Especially, yeah, with what with McCar is going to make. Oh my God. You compare to that. And then drafting, having the confidence to draft Kail Makar there. Yeah. Because drafting a junior A player there is like not always what people would do. We have a guy at York who actually played with Kail McCar and he said like this guy probably will win an orris.

Yeah, it's insane. And this was in Junior A. Yeah. So then you have that. He's made a ton of really good moves to insulate one of the best players on Earth. All right. Last question. Is it still safe to like Kyle Dubus in the city? As we do this podcast, I've arrived in Toronto at a time when the Leafs are not here, and yet no one, everyone's still talking about them and panicking and should we fire the coach and yada, yada, yada.

But I feel like there's also a certain contingent that's like maybe this kid doesn't know what he's doing. Is it safe to defend Kyle still in the city? I don't even know. I am a big fan of Kyle. Me too. Like a big fan of him. He got saddled with some certain contracts that weren't necessary. The fact that he got anything for Nikita Zaitsev, and that contract is nothing short of a miracle.

Like I know people aren't in love with Cody Cici, but at the end of the day, you only have him for one year. Yeah. Nikita Zytev was going to be five more years of this nonsense. It was an atrocious contract. It was literally the worst thing ever. And Patrick Marlowe, I hate to tell you, but like you wouldn't have Mitch Marner and the nonsense that comes along with his agent if they didn't trade Patrick Marlowe. There was, it was no choice. Right.

He did not have a choice. And he didn't sign that contract. Right. That's not his problem. Right. He didn't hire the coach. He didn't sign those contracts. And yet here he is.

He managed to get Tavaris. And anyone who thinks that getting Tavaris was a bad thing. is like to me you're a complete idea. And anyone who thinks that he didn't at least have a hand in getting him. I think people always just assume that like any of the gigantic good things that happen, it's Brendan Chanahan. And then like Dubus is a play a role in that. But then you look at things like having Brandon Pridem on staff, very good. The sports science department, he brought in Dr. Meg Popovich and she does a lot of the mental health performance of the athlete. And that's super important. And there's not a lot of teams in the NHL to do that. There's a massive sports. science department. He's building things. He's very process oriented, very much like the 76ers

actually. So I think people need to really take it down a few notches. Even with the coach, too, like everyone remember where this team was five years ago and take a deep, long, soothing breath with the vitriol being directed. Like, I understand, you know what, you don't always agree with things that Mike Babcock does, and neither do I. But you know what? There's a lot more dynamics having been behind the curtain that you need to contend with, then what you see. Like, I saw people trying to fire John Hines three games into the year. I'm like, whoa, it was settled down. It might have been me.

Yeah, it might have been you. And then the Babcock thing, obviously, there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. Like when behind the scenes, when you walk into the locker room and not see Nick Lidstrom there, then obviously it's different from Mike Babcock than it used to be. Well, I'm looking for a Nick Lidstrom. Yes, well, I hate to tell you this, but you won't find one. Is John Hines a good coach? Am I wrong about John Hines?

I would work for John Hines without a second thought again. You'd run through that wall for John Hines? Yeah. A hundred percent. If you're saying it, I believe you. Because I also think that maybe his system sometimes yields too many shots, and it's a little loosey-goosey, and maybe defensively they get a little wonk. What's interesting is he doesn't want to play like that, and this is what I was talking about with Babcock on Twitter the other night. It doesn't matter if you put Scotty Bowman behind that.

the bench. If the players want to do their own thing and not listen in the same way that maybe they're doing in New Jersey, it doesn't matter what's coming out of your mouth. You could tell them the sky's purple. They're not going to listen. But then why don't you bring in someone that'll make them listen? That's the question, I guess. There are some players who no matter what are on their own page. Right. Oh, that's my phone. All right. Is your phone. Say, say where you're working and where people can find your stuff. Staffing Graph Podcast is available on Spotify and Google playing wherever you find your podcast. I'm going to be at a bunch of analytics conferences, perhaps presenting. I don't know, we'll see. But if you really want to actually find me and talk to me,

you can find me at York University at Camden Ice Sports, because that's basically where I live now. Rachel, I tried to finish this before my radio hit in Tennessee, but now I'm on the phone with them, so we're going to have to end. Thank you for joining me. I'm Huck Soup. Thanks for having me. Thanks to Rachel Dori for joining us. If there was anything in that interview that was a little outdated, It's because we did it Hall of Fame week. Lots happened since then. So there's that. Lots happened also in the NHL standings since we last talked to you.

Yeah, no kidding. Jesus Christ. All of a sudden, shit's gone crazy. The San Jose Sharks, obviously because Redeemed Simic came back, according to all the people on that mentions, are going bad shit. They're nine and one in their last 10. They're now in the second wild card having moved. ahead of Vegas with a victory.

It was an overtime victory, right? I think they won four straight in overtime or a shootout. Yes. Yeah, they're not winning in regulation. They're still negative 10 on the goal differential, but by God they're a playoff team as we speak today. Again, I think that has a lot to do with, for the most part, Martin Jones having played well,

I think it has to do with an incredible run of home games and games against opponents against whom that they're going to they're going to find some pretty decent success. But there's no question that, yeah, I think we talked about this on the show many weeks ago, like when they were in Suckville. They're one of those teams that you could see rolling off 10 straight great games. Yeah, they're just super, like, they're talented throughout the lineup. You know, when you can play 52 minutes a night of Eric Carlson and Brent Burns,

you know, like those guys are maybe struggling this year more than you would expect, but there's still fucking Eric Carlson and Brent Burns. Here, here you go, ready? Okay, so one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine home games and three road games since November 1st. Gee, I wonder how the fuck they pulled it all together. Also, at Anaheim was a win, at the Kings was a win. These are obviously two teams. The sharks are quite comfortable playing against.

The win at Vegas was impressive at the time, but Vegas is in the shits right now. Yeah. Hey, listen, overtime win over the island is legit. the islanders are playing super great hockey. Well, their street just ended last night, too. Yeah, and Barry Trots got salty, too, about it, like talking about some guys that aren't holding up their end of the deal. But, again, like, if you're looking for why the sharks have turned things around,

for all of you, the Simic stands, I appreciate the snark. When I made the comment about how the sharks were playing, like they were waiting for someone to get back from injury, I was clearly talking about them offensively looking for that one goal they weren't getting from, like, a Joe Bovellsky type. But if you want to say that Simic has saved the season, by all means, that's fine. It's not the fact that they played a billion home games and Martin Jones stopped being a fucking disaster. It's because a defenseman came back to their like second or third pairing.

That's completely what, 100%. You know what? You say that, Greg. It's because you don't watch 82 sharks games a year. And that's why you just missed the value Radix Zamaic provides. He's fine. And look, we want to talk about providing value, folks. There it is.

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So, look, what you're going to do, Seat Geek, not only is it a great deal right up front, but Puck Soup here is going to give you $10 off your first purchase if you use our promo code, soup. that's S-O-U-P, and it's $10 off your first purchase and checkout. And, you know, Seek, you're going to be able to find tickets to just about anything with it and get a good deal. So sign up, get the app, all that stuff. Beautiful. All that stuff. We should also mention that the Dallas Stars are also doing pretty good for themselves, too, these days. Yeah.

Dallas Stars are second in the Central, 901 in the last time. And also, the Tampa Bay Lightning, technically by points percentage, back in the playoffs already. That's right. They are points behind because they've played like five fewer games because the schedule maker was drunk this year. And we're just apparently going to do this all year long where there's huge gaps in games played. But yeah, points percentage. Yeah. Well, you want to talk about it.

I think they only have six more road games in the calendar year. so like they're going to it feels like they're going to really rack up a bunch of really this huge Ws they scored 40 goals in their last eight or nine games I want to say is the number yeah and two those games are crazy to those games were without

Stamcoast as well he didn't play last night in their in their puck line covering victory over the Buffalo Sabres thank you Greg for that pick yeah I guess who's back back again Nikita Kuturoff with 6-7 8, 9 10 points in his last seven games, I think it is.

For him, that's not that impressive, honestly. I know. That's what's crazy about it. But yeah, so they're back in effect. The stars are looking great. You know, the fucking sharks are on the upswing. Everything is going pretty good. And then, you know, as a Devils fan, I'll just, you know, sit back here and sit in my hands for a while.

Although they did win their last game, I guess, I should say. They've won a couple in our gotten points at least in a few games. recently, right? So, hey. Yeah, well, I mean, the team, the team that I'm really interested by is Vegas. Like, Vegas, Vegas might be veering into that might need to make a trade territory to kind of choose to line up a little bit. It's the same thing. It's the, um, it's the same thing that it was part of the problem in Toronto. Um, I think the players all kind of like the coach there, but, um, you know, they don't have a backup goalie. Their backup goalies are like all below 880 something.

They haven't won a single game with a backup starting. That's crazy. Yeah. So, I mean, like, that's whatever it is, like seven, eight points, nine points left on the table at the very least. Like, even if you just went 500 in those games, you'd be doing a lot better. So, yeah, that's the real problem is they just can't get a fucking save from their backups. I also wanted to bring up something that I know that you're pounding on the fucking drum on, which is Kale McCarr to be Calder.

Norris and Hart trophy winner in his rookie season, which would be fucking amazing. Well, again, I haven't looked in a few days, but at the time I said it last week, he was leading the league in war. And, you know, you can obviously say part of that is he gets to play with Nathan McKinnon, but nobody's dinging Leon Drysidal for getting to play with Connor McDavid or vice versa, right? Like, just good players play well together. His numbers are unbelievable. He's scoring a tonne since Ranton and Landiscaug. got injured and now it looks like Rantanin's closer to coming back.

So, you know, his Cog has got a weird, like, I guess he just got re-evaluated or something for that injury. It's, he's on his, it's been on the shelf for a bit. Yeah, he has. But yeah, McCarys had a fucking unbelievable, like, I don't think Calder should even be up for discussion if he keeps playing anything like this and doesn't get hurt. That's how. He's a little gentleman by the name of Jack Hughes that would like a word with you, sir.

Didn't Capo Caco recently pass him in scoring? Yeah, he did. He did. But McCar is playing north of a point of game as a 21-year-old rookie. He, you know, he seems to be good the full 200 feet. It's not like he's just putting up a ton of points. He didn't score in his last game, but before that he had, let's see here, 14 points in his previous eight.

So, like, this kid is playing out of his mind. And yeah, you know, rookies will often hit a wall, especially rookie defensemen, around the 60 game mark. You know, it's a natural thing. He's never played that many games in the season before. He played college last year. I think he probably only played 40, something like that. Yeah, well, clearly what they need to do is shut him down after 60 games and he'll Patrice Berger on his way to an NHL award. That's all.

Hey, man, it's all about load management in the NHL these days, right? Oh, God. Did you see Al Morgani's tweet this week about how Keith Yandel getting a bunch of teeth knocked out and then still playing to keep his streak alive as an argument against load management? Right. For fuck sake. Yeah. Well, like, you know, you want to talk about load management. You know who should be doing it is the Edmonton Oilers.

Yeah, right. Because they're just like, Connor, Leon, you guys are going to play four and a half out of every five overtime minutes we have the entire rest of the season, just so you guys know. And it's like, yeah, that works if you're going to rest them for like, you know. I don't know, six of the last 12 games. If you're just going to leave them out of the lineup, yeah, okay. Then it works, yeah. But they probably won't be able to. What's the more fucked up stat that the Cogry Flames are currently shooting around 7.5%

which is tied for last in the league as far as shooting percentage? Or is the more fucked up stat that the Nashville Predators currently have a team save percentage of 884? for what's some more fun. You know, it's probably the Predators, but I, the Flames one is my favorite because I'm, like, I follow the analytics guys who post their, their little graphs and charts every morning. And it's been fun to watch them descend into madness as the flames continue to break all of their charts.

And, like, I think, like, Sean Tierney's just given up. He's like, screw it. I'm not changing the axis anymore. Like, and so you just get this chart with, like, a little third of a Flames logo way off to one side, just like sadly peeking in like the one kid with measles who's not invited to the party with everybody else. And it just, yeah, it, it amuses me to, uh, to see them out there just ruining graphs. Graph ruiners.

Graph ruiners. All right. Now it's time for a favorite department on this show. It is time for another Puck's soup quiz. The boys, as per usual, have no idea what the quiz is. A quiz master Wyshinsky has the helm on this one, folks. As you know, Thursday is American Thanksgiving? Is it? You say that out of respect to Sean. Yeah, we say that at respect to Sean. I hadn't heard.

And part of the tradition for American Thanksgiving along with gluttonous meals and terrible football is the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade in New York City, which I've attended on multiple occasions, and have found it to be a joyous experience. They may not necessarily have the balloons this year, they said, because of wind, unfortunately, but still it's a good time because you have all of these incredible floats, which brings us to our quits.

Today's Puck Soup quiz is called Turkey or Jerky. I'm going to give you the description for a float in the 2019 Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. You tell me if, in fact, it is in the Turkey Day parade or if I'm just jerking your chain. When you said floats, I thought we were going to do a quiz about Alex Kovalev. Listen, folks. Oh, damn. You know, that's nationalist.

Is that the word I'm looking for? Culturalist? Turkey or jerky is the quiz. So you tell me whether this will, in fact, roll on Thanksgiving Day in the Macy's parade or if I just made it up. So here we go. Who goes first? I'm on a losing streak, so I think Ryan's got the option here. All right.

Lambert, you're going to kick or receive? I'll receive. Why not? And well, here we go. This is a good question to start with if Lambert's taken the first question. Rexi in the city by handbag maker coach as a giant T-Rex skeleton in a top hat tours Manhattan. Turkey or jerky? I'm going to say jerky. That's a turkey right there. Coach, in fact, has created a float where a giant T-Rex skeleton is touring Manhattan in a top hat. that's an actual float in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade this year. Cool.

Rexy in the city. Get it like sex in the city? Except. It's like rexie in the city. It doesn't really work. Oh my God. Sean, Yes.

Tackle your turkey by Butterball. A float featuring NFL Hall of Famers Michael Strayhan, Warren Sapp, and Mean Joe Green, running around trying to tackle a mechanical turkey. Turkey or jerky? Does this float exist? Boy, you know, you head me until the running around trying to tackle the turkey. That feels like just logistically it would be difficult. And if it's Michael Strayhand, the turkey would just lay down and let him get a free.

So I'm going to say jerky. I don't think that's real. That is correct. That float does not in fact exist. My tip off was that all those guys probably have TV duties that day. That's true. I always like when you guys start picking apart the questions to find out what's inside. I like it.

Ryan, Landau Lakes Salute to Butter, complete with dancing corn cobs and biscuits, and a performance by singer Megan all about the base trainer. Turkey or jerky? That sounds too stupid to be fake, so it's real. No, that's fake. Landau Lakes, in fact, does not have a salute to butter in this. one and Megan Traynor from what I can gather is not performing in the Macy's Thanksgiving paper. I wanted to know if like the dancing corncobs like started that way or if they were just

people on Twitter who got owned so badly. Okay. Transformed. Slowly transformed into. By the way, boys, biscuits, do you like a traditional buttermilk circle biscuit or a flaky croissant biscuit type deal for Thanksgiving? Buttermilk, let's go. All right. I like a flaky croissant.

I like my biscuits in podcast form. Oh, fuck. There it is. Come on what that is. Brackets, lozo sigh. Monster. Okay, Sean, monster energy drinks, let your monster loose. With dancing drink cans wearing spooky Halloween masks and a performance by American Idol winner, Taylor Hicks. Turkey or Jerky? I mean, let your monster lose sounds absolutely real.

Taylor Hicks. See, once again, I was on board until the very end. But no, I'm going to say that's real. That's turkey. No, that's a jerky. Taylor Hicks, I don't believe, is a big enough name to be in the Macy's. Well, and also, he doesn't really, like, Monster Energy drink is more your corns. your insane clown posies.

He has to be available. Oh, God. An ICP float in the Thanksgiving Day parade for all you juggaloes out there. Boy, that would have been pretty dope. Shaggy too dope, if you will. Ryan, most valuable mom, a float that celebrates hockey moms. 100% yes. This is, you don't need it.

Of course. 100% yes. Let me finish. Oh, okay. With a giant turkey goalie and a performance by the black-eyed peas. Yes. Yes, that's absolutely right. That is actually the NHL float this year.

A salute to hockey moms. Wow. Giant turkey goalie. And before we get really impressed that it's the black-eyed peas, please keep in mind, it's the black-eyed peas without Fergie. She's no longer in the black-eyed peas. So it's just like the three dudes with funny names. Oh, yeah.

I didn't know that. I was impressed. Yeah, Fergie is the draw of the black-eyed peas. We all agree with that. Well, it's, it's a bit like, it's a bit like saying the NHL got no doubt to play, except it's not Gwen Stefani. Well, then no, because Gwen Stefani is like the, the main person in no doubt. Like, I don't think of Fergie as being the main person from the black eyed peas. They existed both before and after her in the band.

That's a fair point. Apple, the app is there. Yeah. The other ones. Will I am. Also was in Wolverine, Wolverine Origins. Like, I agree with that because the first black eyed piece. song that I remember liking was joints and jams, and Fergie had fuck all to do with that song.

So I completely understand what you're trying to say. My no doubt comparison was a bit foolish, I agree. Hyperbolic, is the word I would use. You guys have much stronger feelings about the black eyed peas, then I would have imagined. Here's the thing. I could name two of them, and one of them is the person I think is not important to the P.S. So, Sean, as this is a fucking barn burner of a quiz, We're tied one-one. Tough guy and a giant inflatable felon with a shaved head, tiny hat, and prison tattoos. Turkey or jerky?

Just because we're celebrating prison time? Let's see. This is where my lack of historical knowledge of the Macy's Parade is going to hurt me. Do you guys get the Macy's Parade up in Canada by the world? I mean, we get American TV channel, so if it's all... I'm sure we get it, but nobody would watch it. They're just at work. Yeah, we're just, we're waiting for the football game to start.

And I don't, like, there wasn't, my understanding of America is that there needs to be like a, like a business associated with this. Like, that doesn't sound, I don't think you can make any money off some tattooed felon. So I'm going to say, I'm going to say jerky. I don't think that's real. Well, first of all, those, those license plates aren't going to make themselves. So you can make some money off it. Yeah, especially when you pay them for. four cents an hour.

Yeah, exactly. No, tough guy is real. One of the tricloons, which is a balloon strapped to a tricycle, he has been part of the parade since 2011. He has a giant felon with a top, a little hat and tattoos. He's a tough guy. All right. Well, four questions left. We are tied one-one.

is very exciting. Ryan, Star Wars the Float, shaped like the adorable droid BB8, and featuring dancing Kylo Renz, with a performance by Liam Payne of One Direction. I'm going to say no, because it would be the Knights of Ren dancing and not Kylo Ren himself.

So I'm going to say no. That's very impressive. I mean, you go to Disney World, you do see like Darth Vader dancing and shit. It's not like he sends out his minions, because he's above it all. It's kind of how it works. Well, he definitely is above at all.

But you're right, though. That is a fake float. There is no Star Wars float. Liam Payne of One Direction is not performing on it. And there will be no dancing Kylo Rends, much to my chagrin. Sean. Mount Rushmore the Float, Dancing Stone Faces of some of our greatest dead presidents, with a performance by country music star, Chris Young.

Okay, I've never heard of that country music. Star, but that doesn't really help me one way or another. This, this sounds like something, this, this sounds very American. I'm going to say, yeah, I'm going to say that one is whatever I'm supposed to say when it's true. You're supposed to say Turkey, and you're correct. That is actually a real thing in the parade. Mount Rushmore, the float. Ryan. Yeah. Two questions left, buddy. This is very exciting. Lady Liberty, a giant inflatable statue of liberty who shoots gravy out of her torch. I think the shooting gravy is what makes this a little bit implausible.

I'm going to say that's jerky. That is correct. There is no Lady Liberty shooting gravy out of her torch. What I really like about this is how much Greg seems to have started mailing in the fake ones. He's like, I came up with three really good fake ones. And then the rest have fucking, who cares? I mean, not inaccurate, per se. Okay.

Ryan, I'm sorry, Sean, here it is, buddy. We're either going to overtime or we're not. Baby dynos, three newborn apodosauruses that are sponsored in a macabre turn by the Sinclair Oil Corporation. Turkey or jerky? See, I'm, I'm pausing here because I figure, like, I should be able to get a tell off of Ryan here on whether there was anything factually incorrect or disqualifying about that description of dinosaurs. But he's gone silent. He's not giving me anything.

This is like a poker stare down, except I'm trying to do it. Oh, it's not working very well. Ah, okay. Baby. Can I get it red to me again? Greg, can I hear it one more time? Sure, absolutely. Use it in a sentence.

Baby dynos as three newborn apodosauruses are sponsored in a macabre turn by the Sinclair Oil Corporation. That is pretty macaw. I'm going to say turkey. I think that's, I think it's true. Sure. That is absolutely correct, John. That is a real float in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Sinclair's old logo is an apatosaurus.

That's why I knew that was true. Yeah. Okay. Hi. Okay. So now, now the tiebreaker. It's a fucking price is right rules. So the closest without going over.

Okay. Closest without going over. Even though they may not fly because of high winds, how many balloons are scheduled to be in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade in 2019? Closest without going over? 55 Okay Sean I'll say

I'll say 54 Why would you do that? Wait that was it It's too late He's wrong Yeah that was the wrong Yeah I should this said price is right rules

Because you're both grossly over Overestimating how many Bullets are in this fucking thing Really? See the Price is right rules That just lets the second guy. 30.

All right, here we go. I was thinking 30, but I was going to be a guess. No price is right. Wait, we're not done? No prices right rules. Closes, closest to the T. How many of these do you have? How do we get on this?

How many floats are there in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade this year? 30. Closest to the T. 54. I'm going to say 29.9. The number of floats in the Macy's, Thanksgiving Day parade this year is 34. Thank you.

Ryan Lambert, ladies and gentlemen, your incredible winner. I mean, again, a little bit of unfairness here because the American did win the Thanksgiving quiz, but the American Thanksgiving quiz. Yeah, we didn't do the Canadian Thanksgiving quiz. Are there Canadian Thanksgiving parades? No. Why is that, do you think? Because why would you have a parade for Thanksgiving? Sell your stupid bullshit.

Ridiculous. Yeah, to sell your bullshit, right. Fucking, so fucking, you know. We don't even know what day Canadian Thanksgiving is on. We're not going to be holding. I mean, how else is the NHL going to let people know that they love moms and the black-eyed peas, if not through the Thanksgiving Day parade? The famous thing I associate with the NHL, the black-eyed peas. Sure.

I forget what you. year they started doing these floats, the NHL. But by God, they've done it a few times. I feel like it was around the time of the second NBC deal. The re-up. Right. Because NBC is like a, like a, they, they play up the parade in a pretty big way. They do it like their, they, it's kind of their thing, you know? Yeah. So that might be accurate. I do remember like they would have players on, on it, like Bobby Orr would be on it and stuff. Again, great way to sell the game. And, 2018 or whatever. Just get a bunch of old guys up there.

The other players are busy. I mean, isn't Friday like Hockey Day in America or some bullshit? Isn't that what they do? Well, I feel like what if there were teams that were playing in New York, could we maybe get them to go? This is the official description of the float. On this floating rink, kids get to test their slap shot skills against the giant turkey goalie, escorting them down the route are the most viable hockey moms.

They exemplify what it means to be team players and support the ones you love. Mass Mutual and the NHL celebrate moms who go above and beyond every day. Note, although it is made of synthetic ice, the rink's hard surface allows for real skating. And the black-eyed peas are playing on the float, as we mentioned earlier. But no Fergie. There you go. Sounds fantastic. exciting. All right, that's puck soup for this week. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

We will talk to you next week. Thanks to Rachel Dory. Thanks to Manscaped and Seekkeek for sponsoring this nonsense. And what next we talk to you, we'll probably know what happened to Bill Peters. So a cliffhanger, if you will, in this episode. All right, I'm Greg Wischinsky. You can find my stuff on ESPN. The annual, what in hockey we're thankful for column drops this Wednesday. day before Thanksgiving. So do check that out. I've got a disparate collection of people from around the hockey world to contribute

this year, and it's pretty good. Yeah, you can find my stuff on Yahoo and also sign up for the Puck Soup newsletter, which I do every week, except on weeks where we record an episode of Stick to Sports. My podcast was Sean Gentilly, and we do that once a month, and we just did it this past Saturday. So lots of talk about movies. We had both seen The Irishmen, so we got to talk about that a little bit. And yeah, good show. We like doing it. So sign up. You can find me on the athletic, and it's kind of a cool week for the athletic. They're doing a site-wide thing. Look back at the decade of the 2010s, and Wednesday is hockey date. So we're going to have a whole

bunch of stuff for individual teams and for the league as a whole. I've got my top 10 trades of 2010s. And I've also got my 10 dumbest moments in the NHL and the 2010s, which I can tell you took a lot of work to narrow down. The honorable mentions is like roughly 800 words. That's this week like a.k.a. Thanksgiving week or next week? That is this week, like as in probably tomorrow by the time you hear this is all the NHL stuff. Brilliant. Super fun. Yeah, that's a cool.

And obviously the athletic with having writers in every city, I'm sure there'll be like all-time teams and shit like that too. Yeah, so your favorite team, all-time teams, top games, top moments, top stories, all of that stuff. But yeah, they gave me the trades and the dumb stuff, which is a case of knowing, knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your people. well there you go do check out the athletic for all that stuff this week that should be a lot of fun all right that's the show for this week thanks everybody for listening we will talk to you soon bye later

bye bye sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons we've got sportly commentary to what if you commute but we also cover movies tv shows it's and tunes it's your weekly bowl of hoggy and nonsense