Puck Soup - Snubbed by the Hall

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

The boys look at the Hockey Hall of Fame Class of 2020, including what they got right, what they got very wrong and what we think about HOF criteria. Plus, Auston Matthews, the NHL draft lottery, Edmonton's big hub city bid and an intense discussion on ice cream toppings. Sponsored by Brooklinen!

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. Bo, too. I'm Greg Wysinski of ESPN, the worldwide leader in sports when they do come back. Ryan Lambert and I don't think they will

Hey, that's pessimism, sir. Come on now. I'm Sean Magnet from The Athletic. We hope they do come back. Oh, yeah, you guys, because you're all about the sports over there. We do a lot of sports. Yeah, mostly. You do. I don't know.

I've seen different weeks during the quarantine where it's been like movie week or, you know, Josh Cooper is off interviewing Craig Kilbore. or some shit. That was cool. So you do a lot of other stuff too, and that's why people like the athletic. You're in Puck Suit, by the way.

Hockey Hall of Fame, oh boy, big news this week. Didn't appreciate, as I said earlier, didn't appreciate baseball trying to usurp the big news for hockey this week between the Hockey Hall of Fame and the draft lottery. But that's okay. Hockey Hall of Fame, Jerome McGinnle, first ballot, everybody predicted it

that it happened. Pretty no-brainer there. Marion Hosa first ballot. Not a lot of people, I mean, okay, there was a lot of people in Chicago that thought it should happen. There was a lot of people elsewhere that didn't think it would happen, but it did. Marian Hose is a first ballot Hall of Famer. Kevin Lowe, who has been waiting and waiting and waiting. 58 ballot Hall of Famer.

Yeah. Kevin Lowe has been eligible since 2001. He is a Hall of Famer. and Doug Wilson, who has been eligible since 1996, was now a Hall of Famer. Kim St. Pierre, first women's hockey player, goaltender to get into the hall. That's pretty cool.

Not so cool for Jen Botterill, but we'll get to that later. And the one I know Ryan was super excited about, Ken Holland, hockey Hall of Famer, in the Builders category. Yeah. You know? I mean, it was guaranteed to happen.

So, all right. Let's start with the easiest one. Again, the first ballot. We love it. We love it. We just simply love it. No problem there. Awesome stuff.

Very happy. Incredible ambassador for the game. All that good stuff. Had some really, had some really lovely moments on the conference call with everybody and sort of recanting his path to the NHL and the people that influenced him and all that stuff. Just the coolest guy. Ryan, you're a Flames guy.

What did it again mean? What did it again mean to you? Jerome Ginnla is one of like my three favorite players of all time. No. And that's why I'm a Flames guy. That's the team he played for. I freaking wanted to see Jerome Ginnla succeed so much. Oh.

I, you know, just one of the most fun players to watch. And I hate when people use the word classy. But like, I think everybody would agree that, you know, if ever there was a guy who was that in the NHL, I think Gingla would be pretty high up on that list. So, yeah, he's fucking, he's so cool. Damn, we love Jerome McGinla. And like, we'll talk about this later with Alex McGilney, obviously. But like, one of my things about the Hall of Fame is that, like, I want to be able to go there with somebody who may not be the biggest hockey fan and point to a plaque and be like, here is why this person is here. And that's really easy with Jerome McGillow.

Like, you could just say. He scored a million goals on a horrible series of teams. I mean, you know, Craig Conroy was his best center. you know, and so on and so forth. And just to talk about, like, you know, what he meant for players. I mean, you talk to players of color today, like a lot of those guys in the Hockey to Diversity Alliance and what watching a Ginla play meant to them. We just talked to Matt Dunba on the other podcast this week, and he was talking about Iggy.

Like, just an incredible ambassador for the game, a super important player, and a great player. I mean, prototypical power forward. And easily one of the best players at his position. in the peak of his power. So fucking first ballot, let's go. Super happy. Anything to add on Iggy, Sean? I mean, the guy was, he was fantastic.

And the only thing that I don't love about him going into the Hall of Fame on the first ballot is that he was such an obvious choice that I feel like for a lot of fans, we skip right to Kevin Lowe and maybe Marion Hosen arguing about that rather than talking about the guy

who nobody's, arguing about because he was I mean he was everything you guys said and I just like it was so fun as a Canadian hockey fan to watch this guy you'd watch him on Hockey Night in Canada play for the Flames for four years

and just be so jealous that they had that guy and then every four years you would get to cheer for him on your team because he would go play for team Canada and to see him have the success there and you know obviously be part of that legendary 2002 team that

snap the gold medal drought and everything. Just easily in the very highest part of any rankings you're going to do the most entertaining players to watch. And also maybe a guy who might go down in history is like the last truly great power forward. That just as the game has changed, he might be the last of that debris. You know, there are guys that that are still power forwards today. but to be the guy who was the power forward who would hit and fight and also score 50 goals. We may, with the way the game's changing, never see that again.

And it's if that's it, if he's the last of them, he's a pretty good guy to be the one who kind of turns the light out on that room. Yeah, absolutely. It's just an incredible player. Mary and Hosa Now, here's the thing. Like, I need to separate out the argument about the first ballot thing with the argument about the Hall of Fame thing, because obviously Marian Hosa is a Hall of Famer.

I mean, he's got incredible numbers. You know, I'm not arguing that this guy's not a Hall of Famer. But, like, if you look past, at the, and again, this is just going with what the Hall of Fame has given us, right? If you look back at the players who were first ballot for like the last 20 years, it's like Mount Rushmore. It is top 30 goal score, point producers of all time. It is players that won multitudes of awards. It is the creme de la creme. It is hockey de deities that were in this mix, right?

And Hosa doesn't rise to that. I mean, he just doesn't. Like, he was a really great player, maybe underappreciated in his time. If that sounds like Sergey Zuboff, you can maybe draw the comparison. And it took Zubov a while to get in. And I was not shocked that Hosa got in, but mildly surprised that Hosa got in, given what the Hall of Fame had told us about what a first ballot meant to them. You guys agree or no? I kind of go ahead Sean I was going to say yes yes and no I mean first of all to me personally if I'm on the Hall of Fame committee I don't I don't care first ballot not first ballot if you're good enough to be if you deserve to get in the Hall of Fame and you're one of the four best candidates in the men's side in a given year you should get in I think it's it's silly to create this new tier that isn't referenced anywhere of

the first ballot hall of famer. But to your point, they seem to have done that. Now, if I'm a Marion Hosa supporter, of that long list of guys that you've mentioned and written about who were first ballot guys, and were the who's who, the guy I'm pointing to is Matt Sundin. And I'm saying,

we already have a guy who doesn't belong in that group. I'm a least fan. I love Matt Sundeen, but he didn't win three hard trophies. He wasn't, you know, like a guy who was winning a bunch of awards. and that sort of thing, and he would be the guy that would make the case for Marion Hosa. Look, I mean, I've gotten in all sorts of trouble this week, arguing about Marian Hosa. On both sides, I've managed to, I have, all the Black Hawk fans hate me,

because I disparaged the idea that Marion Hosa was somehow this legendary defensive player, as opposed to just saying that the guy scored 500 goals in the dead puck era, so put him in the Hall of Fame. I've also got all the Marion Hosa, all the people who don't think Marion Hosa is a Hall of Famer, and there's a lot more of them than you might think, who are mad at me because I gave him my vote. I said, ultimately, he should be in, and I'd vote for him. So everyone's mad at me about Marion Hosa. I'll maybe just kind of leave it at that.

He's a really good player. I don't think Marion Hosa is a slam dunk Hall of Famer. I don't fully understand, again, how we all kind of seem to reach that consensus over the last few years, I do think the whole thing about him being the greatest defensive winger of his generation when he never even came close to a Selke. And I know there's a bias against wingers, but he was finishing like third or fifth or eighth, even among wingers most years. It's weird, right?

Yeah. It's weird. And I say that I understand that the voters get things wrong, especially on the Selke. The Selke is a really hard award to vote for. But because of that, the voters tend to just go with whatever the public consensus is or whatever the 200 hockey men are whispering to them. And the fact that Hosa never got any consideration, I honestly think that what happened is

Marion Hosa reached a point in his career a few years before it ended with Chicago where I think everyone looked at him and went, this guy's a really good player. He should probably be in the Hall of Fame conversation. Is he going to finish with the numbers? Is he going to crack 500 goals? Is he going to get well past 1,000 points?

We weren't sure. And so this legend of his suddenly the fact that he was a very good two-way player turned into, like I said on Twitter, like he's the Slovak Bob Ganey all of a sudden. And that was really hammered by Chicago, not even like the media in terms of the writers, but like Ed Olick and Paffoli and those guys just suddenly started talking about this guy's defense, defense, defense. And then it turned out he was really good for a few more years and he breezed by all those

milestones. And suddenly everybody was left going, oh, well, we beat the drum so loud on the defense. thing. It's like if we were arguing about Mike Schmidt going into the Hall of Fame and you're like, yeah, he was better than Brooks Robinson. And it's like defensively, no, he wasn't. But also he hit 500 home runs. So why are we arguing?

Like, just put him in. Michael Jack Schmidt. I'm totally fine with Hosea being in. In the athletic thing, he had my vote the whole way through. And first ballot, you know what? I can't get worked up about that because if he's, if he's one of the four best guys, put him in and that should be the end of it. Ryan, before you hop in, Sean, I wanted to ask you about the Selky thing.

I had a theory about that. Do you think that Tave sucked all the air out of the room? Well, like as far as like Selky guy on the Blackhawks? Yes, potentially, although, you know, remember, that's the last five or six years of host's career, not, you know, of 20 years. So he had, you know, he had time to get votes elsewhere. Yeah, that is part of it. I had some Hawks fans say that to me, actually.

And I kind of find it fascinating. I had one Black Hawk fan, like, point blank say, Hosa is the reason Taves won all those Selkies. The dumb voters, the dumb voters, like, just gave it to Taves because he's the center, but it was Hosa who was. That's cool. I actually love that. I think Mike's fucking awesome.

I actually heard Lambert's erection. It's made a noise. My only thing is, hey, okay, in a few. years when we're doing the Jonathan Taves Hall of Fame debate, like, let's come back to that because Jonathan Taves, we're going to hear this guy did win the Selkie. He was this and that, so he's a sure thing. I don't know. But at the end of the day, a good player and by all accounts, also a great guy. So, yeah, it's, you know, I sometimes get caught up in arguing about things I'm not even mad about, and I sort of fell into that trap this week. So, it was.

One last thing on host, before you hopping, Ryan. Any thoughts? thought that the way he had to retire factored into him being first ballot. I doubt it because it wasn't like the dramatic injury. It wasn't like he blew out his knee or something like that. It was an unusual situation. Although, you know, again, maybe if you're on the fence, maybe you go, ah, you know, his career got cut short by a year or two. You throw in another 30 goals on the pile and the case gets even stronger.

But I don't think so. I mean, I think he got in on the merits. I said on Twitter, since the 95 Devils came along and ruined hockey, there have been five... Happy anniversary, by the way. Yeah, there have been five wingers in 25 years who have scored 500 goals. And it's Alexander Ovechkin, Timu Salani, Yarramariagar, Jerome Ginnla, and Marian Hosa. Like, there's your argument. I don't have to talk about defense.

I don't have to talk about Selkees. No more to say. Yeah. And he was a very good two-way player, maybe even an elite one. That's it. That's the case. Yeah. I think to Sean's point, like, I used to be a big hall guy.

I was like, who gives a shit? Put as many people in there as you want, blah, blah, blah. And then over the last maybe three or four years, I've become progressively more of a small hall guy. And I was thinking about, like, why would that be the case? And I think I figured it out, which is, I only started watching the NHL in, like, the early 2000s, right? And so now all the guys that I grew, I mean, I was like 17 or whatever, but all the guys that I quote unquote grew up watching are retiring and coming into the Hall of Fame conversation.

And now I'm like, oh, all those guys from like the 90s where everybody scored a billion points, blah, blah, blah, blah. You let them all in. I don't give a shit. But now it's like someone's going to come in on the day. Jerome McGinla is, like, Marian Hose is also going to be a first balakai. That sucks. I don't like that. You know what I mean?

Like, I really think that's probably what happened. And, like, so in realizing that and then seeing, like, you know, they're letting in Kevin low, they're, you know, Daniel Alfredson's going to get in one day. And, like, you know, I think in my head I've always kind of been like, If you were for a period of, I don't know, 20% of your career or something like that, considered like a top 10 guy in the league at your position, yeah, okay, that's fair enough. But, you know, now it's like, okay, well, all these guys are just kind of starting to get in. Like, you know, there was a big push for Rod Pryndamore this year, and it's like,

like, is Rod Brindamore really? And it's like, you know what? I don't care anymore. I'm back to being a big hall guy. Let everybody in. Like, it's just the thing of, and I said this in the newsletter this week. You know, if you're like looking at Daniel Alpherson's career and you're like, damn, like, really impressive. And then you put it next to Jerome McGinla's career and you go, oh, that's not impressive at all.

Like that's, you know, like, that's fine. That's nice. And the thing I compared it to was if you're in a room with a guy who's like 6, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6.6, You're like, wow, that's a real tall dude. Wow, it's crazy how tall that guy is. And then Andre the giant comes in the door. And you're like, oh, that tall guy, he's not like that tall, I guess. Like, this isn't breaking the limits of what I perceive tallness to be in that, like, you know, I think Jerome Ginnla, you know, is one of the all-time titans of the sport.

Like, that's how good I think he is. And it's like, yeah, if, you know, if like Marion Hosa, who, like Sean said, like, he's got amazing credentials, but, you know, was, I don't think anybody would have ever like, oh, yeah, Marian Hosa spent like eight years as one of the best winners in the game. And that's fine. That's fine. So, like, I'm kind of a little bit, I guess I would say blackpilled about it where it's like, you know what, I guess I'm back to not caring. He made he made one I think Hosa made one postseason all-star team Yeah, yeah And I think

I want to say Yury Lutnin made two I might be wrong on that But I mean, Lettman's the guy that I'm thinking about a lot this week Now he doesn't have the offensive numbers that Hose has Hose is a hall of fame or my estimation But man, if you're going to make, right If part of the bedrock argument on Hosa is like dominant defensive winger, it's like fuck off

Like here's the guy that actually won the self It doesn't even have to be that. It doesn't even have to be about offense or defense. Like I was talking to Sean Gentilly yesterday about like, you know, Zach Astner-Reece looks like he's going to be a very, very good defensive forward in the NHL if like he can keep up what he did this year, right? He is at best an average offensive player. I don't know what he ended up putting up for points this year, but I'm going to say it's

probably in the range of like 25, right? And if you look at, you know, a guy who is similarly good, he had 13 points this year. So, yeah, if you want to look at Zach Aston Reese and go, okay, a guy who is similarly deficient defensively as Ashton Reese is offensively. but, you know, not even elite defensive player, like a perfectly good offensive player, like a guy who can put up 40 points a year, let's say.

That guy makes, over the course of his career, like $40 million more than Zagest and rest does. Right, right. And so, like, I don't want to get into, like, oh, you know, it's hard to judge defense, it's hard to, whatever. Of course it is, you know, we're never going to be able to look at all the, like a Kevin Lowe and go, yeah, okay.

Like, yeah, his offensive numbers were, like, Rob Ramage, worse than Rob Ramages was the comparison somebody drew yesterday, right? But he was so good defensively, blah, blah, blah. I guess I'll have to take your word for it, and I'll take your word for it on Hose, and I'll take your word for it on all these other guys. That's all fine. I don't care anymore.

That's kind of what I'm landing on now is, like, I was a small-haul guy or a big-haul guy, and then I became a small hall guy, and now it's just like, you know what, why get worked up about it? Just like everything else in the sport, it's like it's entertainment. And with that, having been said, Henrik Zetterberg shouldn't get in next year. Yeah, and if Uri Latenen gets in, I'm going to go to the Hall of Fame myself with a placard and march in front of it, because that's ridiculous. And so, and this is like the Guy Carbino thing has broken a certain segment of people's brains when it comes to the Hall of Fame.

And I, I will sneak. I will break into the Hall of Fame and steal Guy Carbino's plaque before Yerri Laytoning gets added. Like, that's my heist movie is I'm going to do this so that I don't have to hear that every half decent defensive player suddenly belongs in the hall. Like I'm not doing the John Madden Hall of Fame discussion. just because they screwed up and put in key carbony. Interesting. Yeah, but the key, the carbony thing kind of speaks to the low thing a little bit in the sense that, like, I'm torn. I, we were talking about Yuri Letton.

Like, I like the idea of the Hall of Fame sometimes honoring specialization, but then they get to real trouble when they do. They honored specialization with Clark Gillies, and then everybody's like, oh, the bar has been lowered below the floor. kind of shit. They honored specialization with Carbono. I feel like in, they clearly honored specialization with Lowe in the sense that it's the first time since in like 18 years they honored a defensive defenseman. Last guy in was Langway. And Langewey at least won Norris's, right? Right, right. Yeah, like, yeah, I mean, obviously Lowe is in because he's riding

the coattails of six other guys on the Oilers, but, um, and, and on the Rangers too. But like, I have, I'm torn because like, I don't think Kevin Lowe's a Hall of Famer, but I do like the idea of expanding the purview of the kind of player that could be in the Hall of Fame, that it's not just all-around guys, but just guys that were really good at their fucking job. And, and Danielle, can I tell you right now? If honestly, if we're going to go down that road and we're going to start saying that, you know, if you were the best at a certain role, put Bob Probert in the Hall of Fame before you put Kevin Lowe in. No, that's fine. That's completely fine by me. I mean, if you're putting Kevin Lowe's, I mean, if you're putting Kevin Lerner, known the Hall of Fame, take a look at Adam Foote. Like, there's reasons to look at these guys and say, okay, there's not an award for what you did.

And you're not going to get on the All-Star team. And you didn't put up the same offensive numbers as fucking Jerome McGinla. But the thing that you did was so good and you did your job so well that you may be in the Hall of Fame because of it. It's no different than in the NFL where a punter can get into the same Hall of Fame that Tom Brady gets into. It's no different than a Major League Baseball where great defensive shortstop can get to the same Hall of Fame as Hank Aaron gets into.

I mean, there's no reason why you can't honor a specialization of the Hockey Hall of Fame. How about this? You have to actually be famous. You know, I'm famous, famous, famous guy. And maybe more for his exploits his GM, but you can't say he's not a well-known figure in hockey. I don't know that you can say the same about, you know. Adam Foote. Adam Foote, you're a letting and like.

And also, can I just say the, as a. As a football fan, there's one punter in the Hall of Fame. Right. In the entire history, there's two kickers who didn't play other positions in the Hall of Fame. So, yeah, there's a few, but the football Hall of Fame recognizes that, you know, quarterbacks. Yeah, the baseball Hall of Fame doesn't have, like, the best lefty-only one-out guy. I have long said that Jesse Orozco should be in the baseball Hall of Fame for being the best at what he did. Absolutely.

No question about it. There is an argument to be made for perception here because when you think about it, we just talked about Hosa and Selkees. It is kind of weird that we even have the Selkees as an award, that we chose defensive forward as someone to recognize. And I've heard it argued that if for the last 40 years, we also had a Selke for defenseman, basically the defensive defenseman award. And, you know, guys like Kevin Lowe were winning that.

if Kevin Lowe had three Langways or whatever it would have been called, then suddenly the argument feels very different. And maybe we should, or maybe we shouldn't have the Selke. I don't know which it is. But it is strange that we do it for forwards and not defensemen. Maybe that changes it. I'll just say, I don't know what my cutoff for the Hall of Fame is. I've made the case, again, when arguing that Marion Host's case maybe wasn't as strong as some people said,

I said, you know, when in Marion Host's career was he the best player on his own? team or at least considered the best player. Kevin Lowe was never one of the five best players on his own team in a 20 year career and how he's in the Hall of Fame. I don't buy it. Yeah. On the other

hand, who gives a shit? You know who I feel bad for? You know what I feel bad for? Craig McTavish. Sorry, buddy. We're not taking that date guy off the Oilers. Charlie maybe next. No, he's done. No. They're going to be the Dave Concepcion's of this Oilers

team, man. They're never getting in. Low's the last guy. I think that's probably. Here's the other piece of this that I think gets a little tricky is Kevin Lowe is a guy that maybe gets helped by the process here. The fact that there is 18 people on a committee, it's 18 old-timers, it's 18 hockey lifers, and when you look at the people who are on the committee this year, Yari Curry played with Kevin Lowe forever.

So if he stands up and says, you know, Kevin Lowe is my teammate, Kevin Lowe is a key part of all these Stanley Cup rings I've got, you know, already that gives Kevin Lowe a good boost. Mike Gartner played with Kevin Lowe on the 94 Rangers and Luke Robitai played for him, I believe, at the end of his time in the Rangers when Robitai was over there. So you got three people on the committee that played with a guy that's got to help. You know, obviously I can help him in previous years, but. And let's not forget played against. I mean, Robatai played against Kevin Lowe for many years. And as Lanny McDonald said, Lany McDonald basically, man,

move over Flavent, we've got a new hype man. Lany McDonald said that Kevin Lowe was the leader of the pack on the Oilers, a team with Gretzky and Messier, for fuck's sake. Maybe he meant, like, in terms of the number of packs, he smoked between periods like all those guys did back then. But, yeah, I mean, they also played against him, and he was a tough S-O-B to play against. So, yeah,

Kevin Lowe. It's whatever. It's whatever, yep. Because, like, it's funny. Like, two days ago, I was like, you know what? There were some years where it's like, we can just, like, not put four people in the Hall of Fame. And now I'm just like, I don't care, whatever. You know, it's a, but to ride.

Hold me to this, please, that I can't be mad about this anymore. I beg you, because, like, it'll just make my life easier. To Sean's point, though, like, talking about that selection committee, I, I understand the clandestine cultish nature of the selection committee. And I understand they're never going to really pull back the curtain on the process. But can they just do us a solid and tell us how Brian Burke felt about Kevin Lowe being in the Hall of Fame? Can they just tell, like give us that point at least? Please.

Yeah, that's, uh, that guy, that guy won't even go and fight in a barn. Hall of Famer. Doug Wilson's fine. I've been lobbying for Doug Wilson for a long time. Norris Trophy winner. Just, you know, one of the best offensive defensemen in NHL history. I think he's like still ninth of points per game for guys that have played as many games as Bobby Orr. And granted, that's the 1980s and that's all bit crazy.

But the thing is that he was, he's never really mentioned the same pantheon as Bork and coffee and Langway. and guys like that. So I'm happy that he got this, because I think he deserves it. And it's, yeah, I mean, it's, it's kind of the thing where he played in the Bork coffee, cellios era. He was sort of, it's the Dale Howardchuck scenario, right? Like, Dale Howardchuck was not Wayne Gratzkin, he wasn't Merrill Lemieux, and he probably wasn't even Steve Eisenman.

But he was still Dale Howarduck. He was a, he was a Hall of Famer. And, you know, at some point, I think Doug Wilson was more Dale Howardchuck than Bertie Fraterko. And I made the case when we did our athletic kind of shadow Hall of Fame thing that I talked about last week. I hope people saw it. It went up on Tuesday. Yeah, it was cool. I nominated Doug Wilson.

And I pushed for, you know, Doug Wilson was kind of my player that I made the case for. And we ended up putting them in. And we ended up getting, in fact, our class was a Ginla Hosa Wilson. And then we put in, instead of Kevin Lowe, we put in Alexander McGilney. and I'm sure you'll have thoughts on that. But it was an interesting process. But yeah, Wilson was kind of a tough sell. And he barely squeaked in, but he got in.

I would imagine it was probably around the same. I'm happy to see him in. I think it's the right call. But again, like with Kevin Lowe, when you've got guys who are waiting 20 years, I really wish there was more visibility somehow. And maybe that's not giving us the vote totals every year. Maybe that's not saying here's the exact list.

but maybe it's just saying that if a guy gets, you know, it takes 14 votes to get in, if a guy gets halfway there, if a guy gets seven votes but doesn't get 14, then we'll release those names every year and let you know who came close. So because I feel like if we knew knowing that Kevin Lowe had been just shy each of the last five years, then I think we probably feel differently about him getting in now because we're going, okay, yeah, you know, he's been knocking on the door and versus, some of these where it feels like it comes out of nowhere, even if it probably doesn't.

For all we know, Doug Wilson was one vote shy for the last decade. But anyways, the point is he's in now, and I think that's the right call. Ken Holland gets in the Builders category. I mean, he, you know, it's funny. Like, I wrote about Victor Tickanov this week in the column, and one of the things they always say about Tickinoff, Tickenoff is that he basically inherited what Teresov had done, you know, inherited the system.

Yes. You know, inherited some players. And I thought a lot about that with Ken Holland getting into the Hall of Fame because, like, Kenny Holland took over a team that already had Eisenman, Federoff, and Lidstrom at its core, right? And it was already playing that style of hockey that the Red Wings would then play in perpetuity. But again, like he over, he did a hell of a job. He built one of the best teams in the history of hockey with that. 2002 Red Wings team.

He oversaw a team that never missed the playoffs. And behind the scenes was one of the more progressive voices insofar as the rules of the game that we've had. A guy who pushed real hard for three-on-three overtime and was very anti-shoot out, so that wins a place of my heart. I'm not saying Ken Holland isn't a Hall of Fame, right? I was surprised to see him get in and mostly surprised that, look, you all know how I feel about the David Poyle most winningest GM in NHL history bullshit. You love it.

Where, like, he's never, yeah, you think it's cool. I think it's amazing. I get that by needs and pray every day that we, that he's, you know, gets, get celebrated for that. But it is kind of weird that he isn't, he's not in. And despite all of his USA hockey bullshit, whatever, and Ken Holland gets in. Here's what's weird. Yeah.

That you can get in while you're still doing the job you're getting in for. That's, that is insane to me. If they were like, Greg Wyshinsky, you're going into the Hockey Writers' Hall of Fame right now. And it's like, well, I would. I would like to thank the academy. You know what I mean, though. It's just like, well, shouldn't we, why do we have to wait until players retire but not GMs? Yeah.

Or commissioners. Or commissioners. Or commissioners. Or commissioners. That was a fucked up thing. It is strange because I get that like when you're talking builders, you could, people can be building and part of the hockey world their whole lives. And I don't want to get into a situation where you only get in as a builder after you die. But, like, Ken Holland is not, you know, I would be okay with David Poyle getting in because he's been doing it forever and, you know, is potentially coming up towards the end of his career.

Like, Ken Holland's just started a new job. Yeah. Isn't he on like a five-year deal in Edmonton? Yeah. And like- Just completed year one. Going through the athletic thing, the one thing that really stuck with me is like the builder category is just a total. rapture. We could all, like, when, on the men's side and the women's side, we could all come up with,

you know, plenty of names, but with the builders, you could come up with an almost an infinite number of names. And who gets nominated, who's name gets thrown in? I'm not going to sit there and say, yeah, it shouldn't be Ken Hall in his case is weaker than whoever's. Who knows? We don't have stats to look at. We, it's, it's crazy. But it does strike me as strange that in, with, with, with this backlog of worthy candidates that you would choose one and it would be the guy who is still actively doing the job and could be inducted five years from now or 10 years from now versus guys who have been have strong cases and are waiting and in some cases are long gone and I don't know it's uh it it that one struck me as strange a little bit but you know it's it's

it's fine. But I agree with Ryan, though. Like, the idea that that guys that are currently active in their jobs get in is very strange. I still think that the whole thing of Betman, who everybody knew still had one more labor negotiation in him, gets into the Hall of Fame. Like, all right. How about that way? Next year, put in Alice Sovetchkin.

Why are we waiting? Why are we waiting? Because there are rules. We talked about, you, I had to tell you about the Yager thing. Like, Yager could, they could easily wait. I forgot about that. Yeah. But he's got to retire first. Right. Because I, in my brain,

it was the classic, you know, it's not the NHL Hall of Fame. It's the hockey Hall of Fame. And I was like, oh, Yager hasn't been in the NHL in a few years, I feel like. So let's go. But no. Again, like, he's going to play forever. What else do you have to do? Like, don't, I mean, we understand how much you love Cladno

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Not happy as a clam, Alexander McGilney, who is a once again snub for the Hall of Fame. I am not angry on the level of a Pat Byrne snub quite yet, but I'm getting there. Every single test that you could apply to Alex McGilney as far as what a Hall of Famer should be, he passes. He's got a better goals per game average than again, Lenhosa. He's got a 1.04 points

for game average, better than 30 Hall of Fame forwards. He was without question the best player at his position during stretches of his career. 76 goals in 77 games in 92, 93. Fuck off. How great is that? Triple gold club. You want sportsmanship. He's got a lady Bing. You want character. First Russian-born player to serve as an NHL captain. You want contributions to hockey. How about first Russian player to defect to United States as a 20-year-old in a story that plays out like a spy thriller? Come on, man. Alex McGilley's a Hall of Famer yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and yet is still on the sidelines because of reasons, I guess. I don't know what the reasons are. You know what the reason is. What? It's anti-Soviet bias. But a lot of Eastern

European guys have gotten in in recent years. Yeah, you know, famously though, not Russia. Russian ones, though. Like, that's the big deal. Like, if you played for the Russian national team, I want to say Corey Mazesek wrote a big thing about it a few years ago. Like, the shocking lack of representation for, like, those great Russian teams in the hockey hall of fame is, it's notable. Like, I'll see if I can find it really fast if you guys want to talk for a second. But, yeah, it's, like, not. it's not like a random thing, it seems like.

Okay. Let's put it that way. And listen, I mean, this is where we start to get into sort of the Canadianism that's probably inherent in the selection committee. And maybe there's some people that remember the wars against the Soviet team and they're like, oh, fuck those guys. But here's the thing. Like that, I think that applies certainly to players who played the bulk of their career or did their best work playing for that Soviet team. playing in Russia where they weren't, and I don't know that that's necessarily like, a anti-Soviet bias so much is just we remember what we saw and it's not the NHL Hall of

Fame, but it kind of is. That is, largely how it is, is mostly, mostly seems to work. But Alexander McGilney, just based on, like, just based on his NHL career has the credentials. Like, Pavelberg made it in, Sergey Federov made it in. Without question. And the thing to me with McGilney is the case against him was always going to be that if you ignored the historical importance of him being the first Soviet player to come over, the first to defect, if you put that aside and you purely only look at what he did on the ice, he was a guy who had a couple of monster seasons, but in terms of his overall numbers, doesn't quite get to the level you would want to see from. a goal scorer who played a big chunk of his career in the high scoring era. He didn't get the 500 goals.

He didn't win an MVP or something like that. So his case is just short of what you might like to see from an offensive goal scoring guy. The problem with that argument is once you put FACL of Netamasky in and make a big part of him going in, the fact that he was the first check player to defect, the idea that you don't give McGilney credit, completely goes out the window. Right. This has to be part of McGilney's resume. And given that, the fact that, you know, again, Netamansky's a guy who,

who almost all of his accomplishments came overseas. North American fans aren't as familiar. It's a different sort of situation. But, you know, we're not talking about a guy who was the first to defect and was historically interesting for that, and then came over and played three seasons. This guy came over and had a long, super productive NHL career, had one of the best individual seasons in the history of the game.

Like, I don't, there's no argument for him not being a Hall of Famer. I guess the only argument is, does he not only pass the threshold, is he one of the four guys in any given year who does so? And I don't know, I guess when you've got, if you've got a Ginlan, Hosa, his first ballot guys, and you got Wilson and Loeb been waiting two decades, It's maybe you feel like you just push McGilney another year out, but he's been getting pushed a year out for a while now, and he should be in. Is it possible they're waiting to just, like, put him in when they're going to put in two other Canucks?

Like, is that possible? So next year when they put in both scenes? I don't think so, because he's not a guy that's remembered as, like, a Canuck. I mean, he obviously played for the Canucks had the one really big season with them, but I don't consider him like a Canucks. legend of some sort where you'd hold off on that. I don't know. It's bizarre.

All right. I found the article, by the way. So, Summit series, you know, very famous match between the Canadian, best Canadians and best Russians. 13 future Hall of Famers on Canada's team, two on the Soviet team. The 87 Canada Cup, 11 future Hall of Famers. let's see here, two for the Soviets. Yeah, there you go. Like, come on.

Right. A couple other things on the women's side. These guys know they can put in two women, right? That is the Hall of Fame bylaw that you can actually put in two women. It seems like they don't. Yeah, exactly. Jennifer Baderle, Jennifer Baderl is on the sidelines. Caroline Alet, Julie Chu, Natalie Darwitz.

So a lot of worthy candidates still on the sidelines on the women's side. again, Kim St. Pierre, completely valid Hall of Famer without question. But, like, Botterill was one that I think everyone assumed was going to get in this season, did not. Perfect scenario, obviously, would be Olet and Chu getting in together. Yep. Being the third real life couple would be pretty awesome. But, again, like, they've never put in two women in the same class. It's fucking strange.

Like, why have the very first year they did, and that was 10 years. Oh, right, right, with Granado and, yeah. Yeah. And this is where the frustration is because, you know, we talk about whether it's a big hall or a small hall or whatever. And it feels like they've decided that it's a big hall for the man and a small hall for the women. Like if there was, I don't actually have an issue with there being a limit of four

men and two women because there are more men playing hockey at a high level still. And hopefully if that changes someday, we can change the numbers around. The numbers being four and two doesn't bother me. but the fact, you know, if the limit is four men and they were inducting two men every year, somebody would go, hey, how come we're leaving all these spots unused? The fact that it's been 10 years since they've used their maximum amount of slots for the female players is very strange to me. And again, it's not a lack of candidates. Jen Bottero absolutely has every qualification you could ask for that, that, that,

they themselves have established as far as what they're looking for in a female player. If two players go in ahead of her, then okay, that's life. You've got to wait your turn. But when they're just sitting there with unused spaces, that is frustrating. And I don't understand why they're doing that. You mentioned Brindabor before. I think he's the Hall of Famer just based on the Carbono thing. I know there's just sort of like Sean mentioned last week, like the idea of treating

carbony like an aberration. But, I mean, he's in. And if he's in, then that opens the door for a guy like Brindamore. Here's my thing on Rod Brindamore. I honestly feel like, and I may have been one of the very first, like, like, writers, national writers, whatever, to pump Rod Brindamore's tire as a Hall of Famer. Because I remember back when I, again, going back, it was a piece I wrote about Marion Hosa. And this is like seven or eight years ago.

And I was like, why is Hosa a sure thing? why not Rod Brindamore? Look at the comparisons at the time, you know, Host's career was still going on. They had Brindamore had more points, more, he had the two Selkies. And I sort of meant it as not necessarily like Rod Brindamore should be in the Hall of Fame. But back then, Brindamore's name never even came up. We all wrote the articles every year, who should make the Hall of Fame this year? Nobody ever mentioned Rod Brindamore. And I was kind of like, hey, are we sleeping on this guy a bit?

And it's very interesting to me that all these years later, suddenly it's not only are there people out there saying Rod Brindamore's name should be mentioned, there's people who want to put him in, and there seem to be a lot of people who are adamant that he's the obvious candidate. Like, I mean, we got all these, and I'm sure a lot of them are Hurricanes fans,

and clearly what's happening, the reason for this is because he's coaching again and he's visible again in the minds of hockey fans. But we got all these Hurricanes fans who are like, no, it's Iginnla and then nobody else should get in before Brindamore. He's the next guy in. Yep. Ryan, have you ever heard of a more craven and blatant attempt by somebody to get on the hockey news power and influence list than listening to Sean?

No, no, no. No. To be really clear. Nobody read it. When I wrote that, nobody read it and it didn't influence anybody because it took years until he became a coach again. But then it was like, it was one of those things where it was like, nobody cared, nobody cared, nobody cared. And then people were like, maybe Rod Brandebor. And I was like, okay, yeah, that's the correct.

level of buzz and then the next year it was like definitely Rod Brindamore. And I was just like, no, no, no, this is, this is too much. Rod Brindamore should not be in the Hall of Fame. But Bo. Rod Brindamore should be in the conversation for the Hall of Fame. And Rod Brindamore, again, this is, Rod Brindamore's case is closer to the Marihosa case than you think or that a lot of people think until you sit down and actually look at them. But also, he shouldn't be that. So I have Now, again, successfully got both sides of an argument mad at me. You've now, you've deactivated his candidacy. You activated his candidacy, and now you've deactivated his candidacy.

I have had no... Look, I got Doug Wilson in personally, so that's it. I'm done. You're on your life. You're like a mother who yells at her kids saying, I bought you into this world and I could take you out. And that's exactly what you did through Robbredimore's candidacy for the Hall of Fame. I was saying that picture of Robbredimore without his shirt on, though.

I wouldn't threaten that dude. No. Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I apologize, Rod. He's a problem. I put him into many Hall of Fame's that picture. One name that's been kind of conjured from the ether this year that I think is a really, really good candidate as a builder. I saw him mentioned on the athletic piece.

Mike McKenna went real deep on why this guy deserves it. Mitch Korn, a lieutenant coach for the Islanders who was hashed. Golic's goalie coach, Peca René's goalie coach, made Braden Haltby worth a damn in Washington, work with... I don't think that's... Dude, if you remember... He was like a 920 goalie the first few years of his career.

He was always good. And hold on. He, corn... Wait, how many years do you think Holtby had before Korn got there? Two or three, right? At least... When was his first productive season? How many years the Holpey play without having Barry Trots as the coach?

Let's see. Let's see. When did Barry Trots start coaching the Washington Capitals? So Holpey was fourth for the Vesina. 14-15. 14-15. Right. So he was fourth for the Vesna the year that Corn arrived.

Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. Well, his career save percentage before that was 9-19, Greg. What I'm saying is Brayden Holpferfer. he was always good. And, you know, then he had like three years where it was like, oh, you know, he's taking it one extra step. I am remembering this completely. He was, he was a 915, same percentage goalie in 1314. And then Corrin comes. And now we're talking 923, 922, 925 in the next three

seasons. Yeah. And the previous year, he was a 920 goalie. You're not, you're not giving that five points. It's 36, in 36 games. Greg. I'm saying, I'm saying that I remember. Listen, I cover the team. There were holes in his game. Corrin comes in, shores him up, makes him better. Oh, you're right. No, the guy who helped make fucking Nomino Koshchik and Pecoranay immortal goalie is just a piece of shit. No, what I'm saying, first of all, Pecoranay immortal goalie, come on.

He's maybe the best goalie in the history of the National Predators. Come on, man. He's a Vesna winner. A lot of guys won't. Jim Carrey won't Vesna. Where are you going to fucking? Come on, man. What I'm saying is Brayden Holpey always good.

Like, did Corne maybe take him to the next level? Yes, but that's my argument. No, no, you said made him worth a damn. He put him in the Vesla conversation. That's worth a damn. Well, no, I think the fact that the Capitol started winning a crazy number of games right around that time might have been also a big driving force. Do you think that Mitch Corrin should be in the Hall of Fame? Yes.

Okay. Okay. So here's why I don't think he should be in the Hall of Fame. Two things. First of all, and again, this came up in the athletic thing. We had this debate. If Mitch Korn does have a case, but then Francois Alair should go in first. Because he was –

Francois O'Ler was not the first goaltending coach, but he was really the one who established that position. And while Mitch Korn has Dominic Hasick and down the list, Francois Lear with Patrick Waugh really literally changed the position as far as how it was playing. That's 100% true. So he goes in first. But the argument that I made against both those guys when we were doing this for the athletic was we don't, we have a really weird situation where I argue that head coaches are grossly underrepresented in the hockey Hall of Fame. Yes.

So I'm not comfortable with going to goaltending coaches. suddenly soon push them in when we've got, you know, like, like Francois O'Lare should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did with the, with the Canadians in the 80s and 90, but like Jacques de Mere should be in the Hall of Fame for that as well. And was back-to-back Jack Adams winner and he can't get in. I would like to see head coaches get in before we moved to goaltending. Okay.

Just not say they're not worthy, but. What if Francois-Auer changed his last name to Limp Biscuit? Yeah, yeah, I'm in. Then I'm there. All right. I can't think of any other goaltending coaches or I would have said like freaking Steve deaf tones. There he goes.

All right, moving on, I don't want to spend too much time on the Austin Matthews thing. I'll just say this about the Steve Simmons report. Like, I think reporting on this right now is an invasion of privacy. I've seen some really flimsy-ass arguments as to why it's got news value. such as you've got to protect other people that know him,

which I think is just like, I mean, that's like scarlet sea territory as far as that kind of thing goes. So I don't buy that for a second. I do think that we enter into a much larger gray area on this stuff when we get into the hubs. And if somebody has to miss a couple weeks because they test positive,

because I think that sort of makes it a bit more newsworthy. And also, I think it speaks to the thing that the NHL is trying to do, which is to tell us that the bubbles and the hubs are going to be secure places where these guys are not going to be at risk or infection. So I think there's news value there. I think there's news value if it impacted his ability to travel or anything like that. Or train. Or train.

But like, I just think the way that, right no that no I think that's true but like the way that and again I know a lot of this is because of the messenger like Steve Stemmons is is a hack right but like if he wasn't such a hack if he actually could have presented this in a different way than simply passing along idle gossip that I had people in Toronto telling me it was like an open secret for the last like for the three days preceding the article maybe it would have been more well received and then the other thing that he did, which was stupid, was he evoked the Ezekiel Elliott story, which of course wasn't a story until his agent went on the record and confirmed it, which nobody did in this story for Steve Simmons. So he's left fucking howling at the moon about people not picking up his scoop for the next week. Yeah, I think here's the comparison I made where I was like, I think everybody's wrong about that because there was a lot of like, the great institution of hockey journalism should never have this kind of

well when the fucking mumps thing happened I went back and looked at the timeline on that and it was a couple of guys on the wild got it and they said oh we got it when the when the blues came to town and then the blues were like we never said

that it was mumps we just said that you know guys were out sick and I think in one case Ken Hitchcock said it was like a viral thing or a bacterial thing I mean and then everybody he was just like, well, it sure looks like Yori Latera and Yolkin Lindstrom

have fucked up, like, weird faces, so I think it's probably them. And like, nobody had a problem with that. Right? And, you know, I think it was because, as you say, like better reporters broke this news and, obviously, like, it all started

with two guys from the wild being, like, on the record about it and that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I really, I was like, you know, nobody like broke into Austin Matthews's like doctor's office

and pulled his file like he was telling people about it let me put it this way I talked to some people this weekend who were like I had heard reporters who had been like I had heard it too I was trying to get more than one source on it and get it confirmed

and that kind of thing and that's the thing Steve Simmons didn't do he was just like you know two people told me or whatever yeah so he had two sources that confirmed the news to him. So he had multiple sources, not on the record in terms of being named, but he did have multiple sources for the story. Right. So that's the issue. Like, again, if it wasn't Steve Simmons, if it was, Christ, if it was Greg Wyshinsky, nobody's like, how dare you impugn

the name of Austin Matthews, the coronavirus patient? That is, that is, I mean, I don't think Steve Simmons is the only one who gets this treatment. But, yeah, Steve Simmons is, uh, in In addition to many other things you could say about him is a guy who is not good on Twitter, and for that reason, a lot of hockey fans who are very much on Twitter don't like the guy, and therefore his reporting on anything vaguely controversial is going to be framed in a certain way that it wouldn't be, if it was Bob McKenzie or Elliot Freeman. Let me just say this, too. I'm not defending Steve Simmons.

Like I said, I don't think it was a necessarily responsible thing for him to report it that way. But again, like going back to the mumps thing, nobody got mad at Mike Russo for saying this guy told me they got it from this guy. And I think that's fine also. You know what I mean? And I get that the counter argument is going to be, well, McKenzie and Friedman and CJ didn't report it, even though they may very well, well have known and continue to not report it. And look, this is a hard question. I honestly don't know the answer on this.

Yeah. And I've thought about it a lot in the week since. And I don't know what the answer is. And there are certain news organizations have policies. At the athletic, our policies we don't report a players who test positive. We don't report their name unless the player or the league confirms it, which did not happen in this case, which is why you haven't seen this written about at the athletic. I can tell you behind the scenes, not everyone agrees with that policy.

Many people do. There has been discussion as to whether it's the right way to approach it. Look, I get that players are human beings first and they have a right to medical privacy. They're also professional athletes. And if Austin Matthews had secretly torn his ACL while he was training, I don't think anyone would argue that that wasn't a story. just because of medical privacy. He's a pro athlete.

And versus other conditions that might have no effect on his ability to be in at, we don't know where this fits in. You know, this is, if somebody is, it gets COVID and maybe don't have symptoms or don't have major symptoms, we don't know what that does to an athlete long term. So, and we don't know, is Awesome Matthew still training? Is Austin Matthew, is he sick? Is he not? nobody seems to to know that or at least nobody's reporting it you know it strikes me as very

strange to when people say that you know all we need to know is that it was a player and the identity of the player doesn't matter look let's cut the crap like this is austin matthews this is the biggest star in your biggest market this is not the same as a fourth line winger getting it it just isn't now whether that rises to the level that it then becomes a pressing public need to know or maybe it still doesn't, that's the hard part that I don't know. But I'm really not sure to this day what the right answer is on this. Because here's the other problem. The way that these stories have been treated elsewhere is generally speaking, and when I say elsewhere, I'm not just talking hockey, all sports, generally speaking, the player is not named,

but they give the identity of the team and they give the location where it happened. So we say three Tampa Bay Lightning players at the training facility. We say one member of the Blue Jays in Dunedin. Well, guess what? If you say a Toronto Maple Leaf in Arizona, that's not protecting anyone's privacy. Who could it be? Who in need? It's one of two. So, you know, the fact that it's their biggest star, and oh, by the way, he was rooming with the starting

goaltender up until a few weeks ago, man, this definitely is a story. And Steve Simmons, you know, went out. out and got it. He found out. He got it confirmed. Other reporters could have done the same thing. Maybe other reporters did do the same thing and didn't report it because of either personal convictions or because of company policies. I don't know. I don't know what the right call is here. But I got to say, if I'm, if I'm a fan, I kind of want to know this information. And I kind of want my, and I kind of want my media people. Well, it's not just gossip, though. This is, this is not just gossip. No, this isn't like who, exactly.

This is, this is important stuff that could have certainly a short-term effect on the Maple Leafs going forward in terms of this year's. And also, long-term, we don't know what the impact could be on a guy they're building the franchise around. It is a huge story. This is all very interesting. These are all things that should be in a story about Austin Matthews contracting COVID-19, but weren't. And that's my point. Like, he can scream all he wants about people not picking up his scoop or fucking, you know, using their own moral joke. Right. But again, it's because he made a hash of the story. Like, there's not everything.

He kind of made it about himself. No, no, no, no, no, no. Go back and read the sun. Where in the story is there any reporting from an epidemiologist to talk about long-term effects on his lung capacity? Where's anything in the story about travel? If we're going to hang this on medical privacy, then you know, you can't then turn around and say he didn't dig deep enough into medical side of it. No, yes, you can. Because you could, because to your point, we've written about injuries in the off season. We've written about hepatitis in the off season.

We've written about a lot of things in the off season that are medically private, but could have an impact on a player's career and his season. But you've got to make that case. And that's the problem with the story. Like when Roge, when Roge writes about a guy who can't travel back from Slovakia because he tested positive for COVID so he can't report to camp, that's a fucking newspeg. That's obviously a news story. This is simply two people told me Austin Matthews is COVID. And there's no reporting whatsoever in the story of what that could mean because we're not even back in camp yet. That's the problem with the story.

That's not what everybody included. That is a criticism. That's a valid criticism. Of the criticism of the story, yeah, but Steve Simmons could have written exactly the story you just described. And people would still be mad at him. And again, it's Steve Simmons. Like, I'm not defending Steve Simmons. I'm saying that, like, if this was Steve Stevens from the Toronto star and wrote almost the exact same story and didn't be like, I can't believe no one else is talking about this.

Like, I think that there wouldn't be this backlash about it. I really don't. There would be this backlash, but there'd be backlash because he's the first player that's been named. He's the first player that's been named. We've had cases going back to the Ottawa Senators, the Colorado Avalanche, the Lightning. We've had all manner and sort of player that tested positive in the last few months. We just don't remember them all because they weren't named. He's the first one that's been named.

And to Sean's point, it's because he's a superstar, right? But he's also the first guy that's been named. Whoever was going to do this first was going to take shit for it. They were, but not to. the level that Steve. Look, I've, I've never met Steve Simmons in my life. I have been reading Steve Simmons for close to 30 years. I acknowledge and get that he's bad on Twitter and a lot of people dislike him legitimately for how he comes across, but he gets more crap than anyone else would get from the online Twitter crowd because of, because of how he presents himself and the

Phil Kessel and all sorts of things. And like little petty fights that he had. and all the things, and he's earned a lot of that. But it all kind of, you know, the Phil Kessel's story has lived in infamy. The hot dog part was the first sentence of a well-reported story about why Phil Kessel was traded. It was an anecdote to lead into a bigger point, and that's all people remember because it was a chance to get a kick in at a guy who they don't like. So, look, like I said, this is tough. I don't know what the answer is, but I will also say that while, again, Steve's whole, you know, why is no one else reporting this did come across in a kind of whiny self-aggrandizement, yeah.

But also, the fact that nobody else in the Toronto media is talking about this when the by far two biggest media entities in Toronto is TSN and SportsN, and they're owned by the same company that owns the Maple Leafs is a legitimate question. I mean, that is not wrong for him to raise the question of, is this coming, and where is this coming from that I'm not talking about it? I will defend Steve Simmons on that. Like, I think a lot of his whining this week is very much like, why aren't you reporting my scoop kind of bullshit? And the fact that matter is that, as Sean mentioned, our organization is the same way in many ways. Unless the Leafs are talking about it or Austin's agents talking about it or Austin's talking about it, we're probably not right.

it because we're not dabbling in fucking off the record sources on a story like this. And it might be the right call. I acknowledge there's good arguments. But to his point, your point, like, it's one thing to say

why aren't the two media entities that own the Leafs reporting on this story? It's another thing to do an interview with TSN Radio and then had that interview scrubbed from their website because you talked about this story. Like, that is a very clear indication that either somebody is being overly cautious internally to not upset the Leafs or the Leafs reach out and said, take this off your website.

And that I completely agree with Ed Willis wrote about it. Simmons has talked about it. That is a very specious thing that's happened to the story and a very slippery slope. And I think a Canarian coal mine about how the Canadian media writes about and interacts with the Toronto Maple Leafs. And look, we don't know, I mean, first of all, I guess we should say the obvious point. Nobody has actually confirmed the officially the Austin Matthews story. So, you know, it is still. Which, by the way, do you think that's, do you think that's also because it was Steve Simmons breaking the news?

Like if somebody else called up and was like, hey, can we get a quote from? Maybe. I think that's a real responsibility. But I also think it's a situation where like the only way to advance the story is to get something on the record now. and nobody's going on the record about it. Yeah, but again, like, I don't know. Medical privacy is important, and I am absolutely open to the fact that there may be a very good argument

that says this story should never have been reported. There may be a very good argument that it shouldn't be something people are talking about, including us on this show. I have also seen people make the argument that, hey, Austin Matthews and the Leafs didn't want this out there, so it's not a story, period. it, and I'm sorry, that's not how journalism works. It doesn't work that if the subject of the story doesn't want you to tell the story, then you're not allowed to.

That isn't how it works, and that isn't how anyone of us wanted to. They tried to hit Woodward and Bernstein with that. And they were like, Nixon really doesn't want this to come out. And they were like, okay, fair enough. But Sean, Sean, but Sean, there are limits for that. Yes, you mentioned, you mentioned an injury. Like, an injury is one thing. Like, what if this was, and again, I'm not trying to, any of you of you COVID-trufer

truthers out there. I'm not trying to fucking relate the two, but like if this was cancer or if this was AIDS, you know, like you're clearly not running with two sources say Austin Matthews is HIV positive. And that's that's why I'm saying. And part of this is we're in this weird middle ground, uh, or at least what I think is a bit, you know, obviously some people maybe don't think that. But I think this situation falls in a middle ground because again, it's not, we don't have an entire NHL season hanging in the balance because of cancer. We don't have a, have an entire NHL season hanging in the balance because of torn ACLs. It's hanging in the balance because there is a pandemic.

And if a superstar player from a huge market has fallen victim to that, that does feel like a story. But again, how it should be approached, whether it's a story at all. I legitimately don't know. But I do think it's not as simple as some people have made it out. And I think some people made it simple just because they didn't like the reporter involved. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, like there's, you know, like we still haven't even nailed down, like, hub cities or any of that kind of stuff. And, you know, we're talking about, oh, you know, would Canadian teams have to go back to Canada, or players who play for Canadian teams, rather, have to go back to Canada and then come to the U.S.

Like, there's so many spinning plates with this. And, you know, like, let's put it this way. If they go, oh, by the way, camps open how, you know, a week after Austin Matthews may or may not have tested positive for coronavirus. And he's not there. Everybody goes, oh, that's weird. Why would that be? And, you know, again, like, did it, did it, I guess what I'm saying is, did it seem like he may have rushed this to be the guy who got the scoop? Sure. Sure it does. And again, that's based on like other reporters were like, I also heard it. I just couldn't confirm it.

And, you know, I think it would have come out eventually, right? And absolutely. That's part of it. So whatever is kind of my. Well, but again, like the, and it's also not like we're dealing with, you know, and again, this is now an NHL thing. It's not like we're dealing with a league. It's not like we're dealing with a league. that is usually really forthcoming with information and has just decided in this particular. No, this is a league that will take any, any reason it can to not tell us things on any number of subjects, big, small, important, trivial, right? I mean, this is the league that wanted to do an expansion draft without telling us what the expansion lists were. So this is their default.

So, you know, I got to be honest, when the league is like, yeah, we don't want to do it. It's medical privacy. We're being sensitive to that. That is a concern, but I also don't fully buy that that's. this league apparently is their approach is going to be to just not tell anybody anything. And we're just supposed to, you know, when players just don't show up or leave lineups or whatever happens, we're all supposed to just not ask any questions about it. And I don't think that's the right way to approach it either.

All right. Switching gears, Hub Cities, boys. It looks like Vancouver might be out. What do you, what are you thinking on a hub? Sean, you wanted to talk about the Edmonton bit, I believe. I just, I mean, there. It's just, Edmonton is cracking me up with this whole, like, they are so in, so all in emotionally on being one of the hub cities to prove that they are this, you know, great, wonderful market. And they're sending out stuff where it's like, come see the Rocky Mountains.

And I know people aren't necessarily up on their Canadian geography, but the Rocky Mountains are like four hours away from. Yeah, it's like, it's like saying, come see the Rocky Mountains and beautiful Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah. Like somebody, somebody who's looking at the mat. Like, the Grand Canyon is closer to Vegas than this stuff is. to Edmonton that they're talking about. And, you know, it's clearly being set up to either be, Edmonton is going to win, at which point they will celebrate themselves as the, like,

we are the greatest hockey market in Canada because the NHL chose us. Or they won't, in which case they'll get to do their meltdown over, you know, presumably Toronto would be the other option that gets picked and how, but it's just, this is such a strange story because I completely get. why it's a big deal to the local communities. You're going to get hotels open that might otherwise not be open and drive money. And as a fan, I don't care. I don't care what empty building they're playing in.

Like just figure it out, keep everyone safe, exactly, and make it as attracted to the players as possible so that they'll go. And then from there, I don't care what sightseeing their families get to do on the day off. Yeah, it's funny, right? Because who cares? Like, it's an empty building. They could play it in a, you know, community rink in, like, rural Pennsylvania, and it would be the same idea, right? Like, you're just playing hockey.

There's the same number of fans in the building, blah, blah, blah. But what I think is interesting is now that Vancouver is out, it's apparently, and, you know, obviously it's early reporting. Like, I just saw this on my timeline 20 minutes ago while we were recording. But, you know, it's the thing of they really want. wanted British Columbia to like relax a lot of the rules that they've had in place and somebody who got retweeted into my timeline who I didn't recognize who they were and now it's long gone was like all we need you to do to be a hub city is like undo all the regulations and rules you had in place that made you attractive initially yeah right and it's like

oh yeah that is true that's the That's why it's not good. Yeah. Yeah, Vegas seems to still be at the forefront, despite the COVID numbers there. And now we're looking at Edmonton and Toronto. I was told it's a very good chance that at least one of the cities is going to be in Canada. So we'll see how it plays out.

They clearly love that. They just need to work out. Yeah, because they're also going to save a ton of money with the exchange rate at this point, too. That's right. That's why both, I wouldn't be surprised at both hub cities end up being in Canada. Canada, but, you know. Wouldn't shock me either. Draft lottery is this Friday.

Obviously, it will be happening after you listen to this show or after we record the show. I don't know when the fuck you're listening to it. But my chaos theory would be, I'd like to see Detroit get the first overall pick, just because I'm, I don't like the world when the Red Wings are shitty. I like them being pretty good. And so I like them getting a foundational player to build around. And then you can have the other two be placeholders. So we get another draft lottery later.

Yeah, we've got to have at least one placeholder. That's the only requirement. Now, Sean, you wrote a piece on many, many different chaos theories. I didn't realize there is a chance the Rangers could end up with the first overall pick and win the cup. Yes. They are the only team that this is possible for. But they, and it's, I think Micah crunched the numbers and he figured it's about a 1 and 32,000 chance. Oh, okay.

The, the, the Rangers are owed a first-round draft pick from the Carolina Hurricanes, uh, from the, uh, from the trade they made at the deadline. It's the pick is not lottery protected per se, but the hurricanes have two number one picks. They have their own and they have the Maple Leafs from Patrick Marlowe. And the Rangers get whichever one is worse. So in theory, the, the hurricanes are protected and under normal circumstances, it would have been like a pick in the late 20s, probably. But in theory, at least, if both the Hurricanes

and the Leifes were to win the lottery, the Leif's pick is lottery protected. So they would keep it if they won the lottery. And then at that point, the Hurricanes pick would go to the Rangers. So what has to happen is the Hurricanes have to win the number one pick. The Leaves have to win the two or three pick. And then the Rangers get the first overall pick from Carolina. And in theory, could still go on and on their own win the Stanley Cop. And, of course, to make it extra fun, the Rangers are playing the Hurricanes in the play-in round, and so they would have a chance to knock them out

and create that scenario's possibility. So fingers crossed, 1 in 32,000 chance. I say it happens. Okay, I came up with, like, the things I think would be the funniest outcomes for this. I put it in the newsletter this week. Chicago wins is eighth. I think it's, you know,

I personally wouldn't be a fan of it, but I would have to say that's objectively very funny. Three teams that win their playing rounds finish one, two, three, would be very, very funny because now we have to wait until like August to find out who's picking first. That's very funny. I think it's very funny if Toronto gets bounced out and wins it. I think people would lose their first.

fucking minds. Along similar lines, any outcome in which the Red Wings finish not getting the first overall pick is kind of funny. I think it's funnier if Pittsburgh wins because, you know, they built their dynasties by being bad. And then it's like, oh, you were actually really good this year. This weird thing happened where it was like a random thing. And, oh, by the way, you're not, you're not yet Alexei Lepernier to play.

alongside Cindy Crosby for the next five years. I would think it would be very funny if both of Ottawa's picks finish outside the top three. And especially, somebody pointed out to me, it's possible that Ottawa could not only lose the lottery three times, but lose it to other Atlantic teams. In which case, you would have like, let's say, Buffalo, Montreal, Florida picking one, two, three, then Detroit,

then Ottawa twice, meaning, first of all, one division gets all of the top six picks, And also, Ottawa is the second worst team in the league, but they pick fourth in their, or fifth in their own division because of how the lottery works. That's really good. I like the idea of San Jose's pick finish, like the senators pick being outside the top three. But then San Jose, they get down to like, okay, well, we still have the San Jose pick. And that ends up being second. I think that's really good.

And then, of course, in any order, a top three of Florida. Arizona and Carolina would be very, very funny because the Canadian media would lose its mind. Yeah. Well, these are all very good scenarios, I think, and I'm very excited to see what happens on Friday. By the way, it wouldn't shock me if they announced the hubs on Friday.

The NHL likes to bunch all this shit together. 530 news dump. Every game is in Edmonton. Everybody's mad. Edmonton and South Carolina. Edmonton wins the hub and the lottery. on the same day. And the rest of us just all

are humbled. Yeah, they become basketball fans. All right, last thing this week, an overrated, underrated, favorite least favorite. Our friend Ben Geier has a good one, mainly because I just had

some of this recently. Elective surgery, no. Ice cream Sunday toppings. Ice cream Sunday toppings. Ice cream Sunday toppings. This is a good one. We haven't done this one before. Overrated, underrated, favorite, least favorite. Overrated for me, ice cream Sunday toppings would be that cherry sauce, which I know people do like, they like the cherry flavor. The kind of a cherry,

like it's hot fudge, but it's cherry. Yes. Not a fan. I think it's overrated. It really doesn't do much for me on a Sunday. I think whipped cream is your answer here. Wow. All right. Cream on cream, it's a hat on a hat, you know? To go back to Mizan Pod, it's putting pork on your pork. That's exactly right. Yep.

I'm going to say any kind of like gummy candy. I like gummy candy on its own, but you put it on ice cream, it, like, freezes, and it gets all, like, hard and crunchy. It's weird. It's a weird consistency, yeah. Not what you need, so. Underrated for me would be, see, in a lot of these like yogurt joints that where you can like put your own toppings on shit

I always see like Oreos are a big play but put a put a fucking butter finger on it man like a crushed up butterfinger you get all the buttercotchy inside it's all like crunched up now you get the chocolate going on when I would go to one of them fancy ass

froyo places I always look off the other candies and put on some crushed butterfinger onto my ice cream. That's the only way I like a butterfinger. Crushed up on your ice cream? Yep. Yep.

It's a weird combination of textures otherwise, I feel like. Underrated for me is, you know, it's very old-timey and like classic and all that kind of stuff, but like cocaine. Well, that's not that old-timey. What I would say, though, is just like the crushed-up peanuts. Pretty good. Is there goo on the peanuts? Because I know sometimes you can get peanuts that are in like some kind of of a goo.

Yeah, no, I'm all set with that. Okay. Underrated topping, Sean. For me, I'm going to say, you know, you've kind of touched on this a little bit. I agree with you on the cherry sauce, but just a maraschina cherry. And here's a hint. You don't need to just put one on top. You're a grown-up.

It's your Sunday. Throw eight of those in there. mix them in and I love to do that and then at the end I find myself like saving the cherries

for the end because they're super good Now you're talking to a three olive man for my martini So I thought you meant Your Sunday That would have been

No That's a strange choice Well I mean You know maybe in the Mediterranean Now Sean After you Knock out that cherry Do you tie the stem

With your tongue? I do not No I do not have that ability So Okay All right Sorry ladies favorite

hot fudge come on hot fudge on a vanilla sundae or a kooky dough sunday is to me like perfect ice cream I've often said that and this is another underrated for another day but the the hot fudge Sunday from McDonald's probably a top three menu item

oh yeah it's unreal just some fucking hot fudge on a soft serve and you got yourself a Sunday par excellence. Ryan? That would have been my answer, but in the interest... You can take it. In the interest of mixing it up, chocolate sprinkles. Yeah, I agree.

Get out of here. Like, the color ones are fine. That's fine. Like, they're all, you know, pink and green and white. Yeah, that's great. The classic chocolate sprinkle, you cannot beat it. Yep. I'm going the hot fudge.

I know we're covering the same ground. but it's excellent. Don't sleep on hot caramel either. Least favorite, that's a good question, man. I would have to say, thinking about all the toppings, you know what? I'm going to, I don't have any qualms about, like, dipping into pools that have already been dove into.

I'll say gummy shit. I'm not a fan of gummy bears or gummy anything on top of ice cream. I think they're two different genres of dessert or a snack. and whilst I think candy on ice cream, fudge on ice cream, I'll even go as far as to say that those little exploding balls of fruit juice that you see at places are really good, but I don't need a fucking gummy bear on an ice cream. It's two different things, and never the twain shall meet in my life.

I actually kind of like it when it's the very little gummy bears, but that's, you know, I get, I one million percent get why, one wouldn't like that. My least favorite is a freaking banana. Get it out of here. Even like in a banana split? Why would I ever get that, Greg?

I just said it's my least favorite part of any ice cream Sunday. It sucks. Get lost with that. Gotcha. I'm going to go with the little coconut shaving things. There's two things

that that's really bad on. ice cream Sundays and literally everything else on the planet. It sucks. Get it out of there. Do not put it on anything ever. Awful. All right. There you go. That's Puck Soup for this week. A lot going on. Thanks for the Hall of Fame for giving us a lot to talk about for an hour.

You could read my stuff on ESPN.com. My column The Wishlist covers a lot of Hall of Fame stuff that you've heard on this podcast, but also a lot of other stuff, including some recollections of when I went to game four of the 1995 Stanley Cup final and saw the Devils win with my dad. And it was really cool. My other podcast, ESPN and Ice, had a really cool week. We did Hall of Fame stuff, but we also talked to Matt Dumbah and talked to Chris Thorburn about retiring and stuff. And he told a really fascinating story about how the St. Louis Blues helped him out as the father of an autistic child while playing for them this past season. Um, yeah, I sign up for the Pucksu Patreon. That's, that's about it. Uh, lots of good stuff on there these days. So much content. The finale of, uh, Misan Pod. So, oh, hell yeah. That was great. Yeah. Uh, you find my stuff on The Athletic, had a lot of Hall of Fame stuff this week, including that, uh, group piece that we talked about last week. So check that out if you haven't. And on Friday, I have my annual draft lottery power rankings column. So, hell yeah.

Take a look for that. Good stuff. Thanks to everybody for listening and supporting us. And thanks to Brooklyn and for sponsoring us. And we'll talk to you next week. Bye. See it. Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons.

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