Puck Soup - Sports That Aren't Sports

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Greg Wichinsky of ESPN, the worldwide leader in all the sports. All of them. We're talking darts. probably lumberjack.

Is golf a sport? We lead that too, probably. Yeah, golf is a sport. I'm Ryan Lambert from the lying hockey media, who's unfairly representing the NHL's positions. Sean McAnew from the Athletic. Is golf a sport or is golf a skill? I mean, I realize...

Golf is a sport. The way I always delineate these things is like the things where there's like a judge you know, like figure skating or diving or something like that, not a sport. That's like a talent show. And like things that are sports are with like, you know, definitive outcomes. I had fewer swings of the club than you did on a golf course, so I did a better job. You know, like that's what it is.

Well, first of all, I want to acknowledge that this is. some real classic hacky summertime sports radio. Yes, of course. Indulgent. It's so fucking good. Everybody, oh, golf a sport. I don't know. You told me John Daly's an athlete?

Yeah, he fucking definitely is. My counter argument to that, the thing you just said, and it's something that I've heard before from people, boxing is judged. It both is and is not, though. Like, I think, does it stop being a sport when it goes? to a judge's decision? I don't know. You're trying to knock each other out, right? You're saying that there's another way to remedy the solution to the sporting event than

than just going to the judges. Like, if you're a figure skater, you can't like, you know, Nancy Kerrigan. Tony Harding tried, right? Right. They better do it. There's no, you have to go. The judges are the determining factor while we're in boxing. The judges are, I guess, maybe like, the fallback position in case no one gets knocked out.

Yeah, that's right. Is it fair to say? Yeah. And look, there are some boxers whose whole deal is like, well, I'm just really good at, like, not getting knocked down and playing defense and stuff. And I don't really win by knockout very often. And maybe you say those boxers aren't are doing the sport a disservice. But, yeah, it's a sport. By the way, it's not a sport.

It's a sweet science. But also, here's the thing. True. The other part of this argument is then if golf is then a sport because of the criteria that you laid out, does that elevate other quote unquote skills into sports? Is billiards a sport? Is bowling a sport? Yes to both. Interesting. Sean, do you consider billiards a sport? You know what? I feel like this is the sort of thing I had strong opinions about years ago, and now I'm just like, if you want to call it a sport, it's a sport. Well, you know, well, here's why. It's a sport.

Why not? I mean, it is. But here is why I have such strong opinions about this, is I used to work at a newspaper in the sports department, and you would get calls all the time. What is a newspaper? Yeah, for our younger listeners. You would get calls all the time about, like, why aren't you covering cheerleading? And you'd be like, this is the fucking sports section, lady. I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, my God. It's not a sport. You know what? You know what's great about that story? It's like, no, it's true. It's absolutely true. It is absolutely a thing that happened when you worked at a newspaper. 100% of the time.

And occasionally, like, they would then call your boss, and they would be like, just put a write a three-paragraph cheerleading thing. We'll put it in the bottom right corner of this, of like the fourth page of the section. And then these people will get off our backs. But I had that conversation too. And it wasn't just about cheerleading. It was also about like fringe sports that wanted to be invited to the adult table.

Like frisbee golf was a good example. There was always a lot of people that played frisbee golf in Northern Virginia. And they would pastor this. sports department. It'd be like big old frisbee golf tournament coming up this weekend. Yeah. And you're just like, I don't know, man, we've got crew or whatever that we've got to cover. Yeah.

First of all, as my wife did competitive cheerleading, so I just got to throw in that, of course, that's a sport. Well, you know, so did our greatest president, George W. Bush. Yeah. He was a cheerleader. Yeah. Yeah. So that's exactly.

They, one of many things, those two people have in common. So yeah, basically everything is a sport. If you think it's a sport, it's a sport. If you do the sport, you get to decide if it's a sport, with the only exception being the people who are way too into ultimate, settle down. Yeah. No, I feel you on that. Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like the sport not a sport thing is often judged by how annoying the people are that defend their given activity as a sport. Yes, absolutely. Right. like now that now that gamers have calmed down because it's sort of gaming is more accepted I think overall I feel like I'm more on the gaming as a sport idea than I was maybe like 15 years ago when you had like angry letters being written to like

Roger Ebert that he should consider the final fantasy games to be cinema or some shit well what I would say about the reason gaming is now considered a sport is that everybody has played Fortnite and gotten owned by a fucking 13-year-old and just been like, you know what, they're just better than this at me. I guess you have to, I guess I have to live with that. And also, we all realize that if you make people who play video games angry, they will ruin the entire country. So yeah, you know what? Maybe we won't pick this particular fight. You used to be able to just say, like, if it's on the sports channel, it's got to be a sport. But then, like, poker came along and blew that up. And now it's, like,

I'll get stuff for. Plead the fifth on that. The, I wanted, the video game thing that reminded me of something that's happened recently, which is that Vivian, my daughter, wanted to get a certain outfit on Splatoon 2 on the switch

and didn't know how to get it. And then we researched it. And it was only available through an expansion pack, which I didn't know existed. So I got the expansion pack for Splatoon 2, and it's like a whole, like, storyline that you have to play through in order to get the stuff. And she tried to do it.

And she's pretty good at the game. She tried to do it and then just got super frustrated and quit and just fucking hated it. And she just like, you know, I can't do this. And I was trying to be like all encouraging in me like, sure you can, sure you can. It was kind of hard. And then the cool thing that happened was then I took over and did it and I have done really well at it. And I had one of those still got it kind of moments. Yeah, you're the hero.

house. Well, not only the hero of the house, but also like the hero of still having the skills to play through an expansion pack and figure out shit. I hadn't used those skills probably since Breath of the Wild came out, if we're being honest. So a good, like, year and a half, because I haven't played a lot of new games in that time. I agree. I've been playing Fortnite with my kids, and I'm just getting destroyed.

Yeah. Like, it was, like, my son started playing, and then he wanted someone. to play with him. And so he got me to play. And I wasn't very good, but I'm like, all right, I'm new. That's fine. You know, this is my first week or two of playing. I'm not going to be very good. Then he got my daughter to play, and she played for like an hour and was instantly 10 times better than me. And I was just like, oh, okay, there's something about being a kid now that you're good at this and I'm terrible. I got to say, though, I tweeted this, but I watched the, the Fortnite event this week, which is the first time our household since my son started playing.

has been through that. And I got to, and not just watch the thing, but watch him experience that, like online with his friends. And they were marking out, like, like 99 Austin versus the Rock. Like, they were just absolutely going insane for it. It was the coolest.

Like, I'm sitting there going, like, it, to me as an adult, like, this is fine. But I'm just sitting there going, man, when I was 10, if that, if we had had that, I would have lost my mind. And it was just, it was super cool to see, like, a bunch of kids just freaking out over, like, thinking that they're the one who's, like, shooting the big bad guy or whatever. It was, right. If we were 10 and we were all playing, like, Mario 3 or whatever, and then, you know, there was a global event where Mecca Bowser showed up.

And then everybody who played Super Mario across the world, like, banded together to win this thing and experience that at the same time. It's such a unique fucking thing with that game. It's so cool. I haven't really been sold on the whole game itself, but I got to say that was going into it and not knowing what to expect. That was fun. And also definitely a sport. They took it out of the Apple store, so I don't play it anymore. I think I'm a lot.

Have I said on the show my minimal Fortnite experience? No, no. I had a friend who was very into it and was like, oh, you should play online with me. And it was, you know, it's a free game or whatever. So I downloaded it and he had been playing for a while and had some friends who had been playing for a while. And I, you know, had never played it before, wasn't good at it, got owned very quickly. And then kind of realized like, well, the problem that I'm having is that I'm trying to shoot people and they're better at, you know, shooting than I am. So I'll just hide from everybody.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I was, and I got to... It's my push to life actually, so... It's true. And I got to, I finished second in my second game ever. And my friends, friends who I didn't know were all very mad at me that I was playing the wrong way and doing better than them. Yeah, it's great, right? And I was like, you know what?

I don't feel like I'm having fun with this game. Like, even if the people on my team are mad at. at the way I'm playing by winning. I'm not going to play this anymore. That's fine. And, you know, I have had a long-standing policy against playing online that Fortnite didn't fix. So I am now, like, probably one of the very few Fortnite players who have a near perfect record of being either dead last or in the final two. So you were basically, like, the current New York Islanders of Fortnite.

A win's a win. It works for me. And everyone else is like, dude, this is boring. And you're like, nope, I'm now going to go into your comment section and scream for 20 minutes. Yeah, I was playing for the loser point, 100%. Yeah. Right. You're playing anti-Fortnight.

You're just like, I'm playing this until the new arena opens. Then we'll change our style. Scoreboard. When I played, and I don't play anymore because they took it off the Apple Store. but the, I was a combination of, of you, Lambert, where I would hide as much as I could, and especially in situations where I'm playing against somebody who builds really well, because they'll always have the high ground, so I would just try to hide, like, inside the structure somewhere and hope, and hope that I get a shot.

But I realized, Sean, to your point, like, you kind of have to find your lane on that game. And my lane very much is that I don't know how to build very well or very quickly. So I just became a marksman as best I could. Like my modus operandi on the game is to find the best sniper rifle I could find and then just like fucking hide and just try to pick people off as best I can to win the game. Mine is to play with my kids and just be like the sacrificial lamb who wanders out and draws the fire of everybody else in the entire game so that they can go, oh cool, this is where everybody is. Okay, thanks, Dad. And I'm like, are you going to come revive me right? and they're like, we're on our way, but...

Yeah, I should say, when I did make it to the final two, I got destroyed immediate. Like, the guy found me within two minutes and shot me with a rocket launcher, and that was the end of that. Well, that will do it. This is a productive conversation because I think we found out that Sean is the Leroy Jenkins

of this group in case we ever squat up for Fortnite. That's perfect. And we won't be doing that. No, definitely not. Not a sport labor negotiation. think we can all agree on that. We should probably talk a little bit of hockey on this hockey podcast. Yeah, I know.

What's to say? Gary Bettman did a panel discussion. Well, it's not a panel discussion. He was talking to What's Your Face from Fox Business News and being interviewed, basically, for a conference for a sports business journal. And he had a lot to say about the current labor talk situation with the NHL and the players. And the thing that I think is just incredible, like my favorite thing maybe that Batman has ever said is that we've been absolutely unequivocal with the players that we are not trying to renegotiate the CBA. Right.

You gave them two different proposals to consider, both of them being different than what you agreed to four months ago. But this is not a negotiation? I mean, is it, is he trying to like strong arm them into saying that this isn't a negotiation? Like, we're doing one of these two things? Or it's trying to like... That was how I read it. It was, this is what's on the table. And if you don't like it, I guess you can go fuck yourselves.

Right. Which is still a negotiation. Yes, of course it is. I think his point was because he said later that this is not us telling them you have to do this. And I think that's revealing because in his mind, a negotiation is when you tell someone you have to do this. This is him saying, we really want you to do this. or else, but not actually saying you have to. So to him, that doesn't even rise to the level of renegotiation.

His negotiating style is this is how it's going to be and screw you. And he hasn't like gone quite to that level yet on this, which, you know, he will probably. But yeah, it's clearly. This is the same guy, you know, he won't say parity, he says competitive balance. He wouldn't say salary cap. He had to say cost certainty. He just picks certain words that he doesn't want. Cost certainty.

It's my favorite betmen of all time. Yeah. Well, cost certainty. Um, again, like, so the other thing that happened this week, I guess, besides Betman's, uh, you know, explanation of, of where they are in the talks, which again is like, their new thing, I think, is saying, do you want to feel the pain now or feel even more pain later? Which again is what the players already agreed to.

They said, we'll feel more pain later to the point of, we'll tack on another year of this deal, uh, if we still owe you more money later on. Like, that's the fucking, that's the lot that they're, My kind of read on that, though, is isn't it a certain range of money? Like, it is. So it feels like the players are really trying to thread that needle of like we won't have to, you know, go through all that. We'll just. But what they will, and that's the thing.

Like, you're right, the seventh year has to be a certain range of money that they owe. So if they owe less or they owe more, the seventh year doesn't kick in. But that doesn't really help because the seventh year is also capped for us. Crow. Yeah. And so I, like, I hate these discussions because like we've said in past weeks, I am reflexively pro player. I think we should all start from a default position of being on the player's side pretty

much all the time in these things. But I do see where the league is coming from here to an extent. I mean, what Gary Bettman is basically saying, and this is true. And I think there's a misconception out there that. The players are locked in to receive a certain number of dollars, and now the NHL, having agreed to that previously, is coming to them and saying, we don't want to give you that much money. We want to take some of those dollars back. And that's not what's happening. The players get 50% of hockey revenue, period. That is the overarching detail of all of this stuff that never changes. The question is when do they get it and how much do they get up front? And if that is too much, how does it get paid back? They always get more than their 50% originally. That's kind of baked into the system. That's why we have escrow for various reasons, even under normal circumstances,

in a regular year, the players get more than 50%. And then they pay it back in escrow. And this is why we always have to hear about escrow all the time. That part hasn't changed. Like capping escrow going forward in last summer's deal, or this summer's deal, I guess, didn't mean that the players get more than 50%. It just meant that the players payback.

was limited, they're still going to end up owing a bunch of money to the owners. And now what Betman is flagging is, because the situation looks even worse than we thought it might in the summer, the amount that they end up owing could be much higher than was expected. And that's going to create a, that creates a whole bunch of very weird possible scenarios where, for example, we could get to the end of six years of the CBA, and the players could owe the owners hundreds of millions of dollars heading into a new CBA negotiation, which is a nightmare scenario because then how does that money get paid? Does it get paid? Do the players not want to pay it? And that becomes a bargaining point. Do the owners want to get it all back immediately? What is the

cap look like? What does escrow? Do we have a 50% escrow year? Like, what do we do to pay all this back? And I kind of have some sympathy for Betman if he's, if his approach to this is to go to the players and go, look, you guys spent the last five years crying about escrow constantly. What are you going to do when it's through the roof in a few years because you've decided to kick the can down the road on this? and and what you know the owners obviously they're not doing this out of the good of their heart they're not doing this because they think oh the players are are going to regret their decision at some point so we're doing it because they're all going to lose a ton of money this year so they're saying how about you guys help us out a little bit we don't lose quite as much money and you guys

don't owe us quite as much money for down the road you know it's it's not completely unreasonable for them to say that but having said all of that of course of course of course of course there is no way the players should accept any of this without getting massive givebacks from the league because that's exactly how the league would treat them if the situation was reversed. So I don't have a problem with the players playing very hardball on this up to an including saying, no, you know what, we'll keep the deal that we've got and screw you. But I don't think the owners are coming out of a completely unreasonable place to at least put their hands up and try to get this deal renegotiated, which it is a renegotiation.

It's not a totally unreasonable one. Yeah, Ryan. I agree with all of what Sean just said. Like, that's just how it's going to, how it's going to be. Like, you know, the owners aren't going to go into pocket to not pay. But I do wonder how much this is just trying to kick the can down the road for when this CBA expires. Maybe thread the needle. Maybe not.

and, you know, like Gary Betman going, well, the salary cap might be flat for the next four, five, six years. I mean, that was always, I mean, that was always a likelihood anyway, just because, you know, at some point, it feels like we're just not going to see any more H.R. Like, beyond what we kind of have already. The problem, though, is it's, if they go forward with this, there's a good chance it's flat, even if things come back. Even if, you know, by now the optimist view is kind of, this next season is going to be all screwed up, but maybe the 2021-22 season, things will be back.

Right. And that even if you do that, and you have a new TV deal, and you have all the, and you have new revenue coming in from Seattle, that it still ends up being a flat cap. The big problem here for the players is this is really going to pit different generations of players against each other. because if you're someone, if you're 33 and you've only got a few years left in the league,

screw it. Give me my money now. I don't care what the cap's going to look like in six years. I'm not going to be here. I'm not going to pay out money out of my pocket now that I'm not going to get back. Forget it. Whereas if you're a younger player, if you're Alex LaFrenier, you're sitting there going, hold on. I don't want a flat cap in three years when I'm looking for my first real contract and I can make a ton of money.

I might be an MVP candidate by then. Like, let's do it now. And it just becomes this real. And I wonder how much the NHL works to play them against each other, because we know that in the past, sticking together hasn't really been a great skill of the players union. And if you're the rest of the PA, you're like, who the fuck is Alex Lefrenge?

They do not care about anybody that's coming to the league in like the last two years. Well, they don't care about anyone who's not in the union. In theory, once you're in the union, in. But yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's not, there's, there's not a lot of 20-year-olds represented on the negotiating committee. I just want to jump in for a sec. So, I think my biggest problem with all this is that while Sean makes some very cogent points, and Labrude, you make some very cogent points, and I, and I completely agree that, you know, it could be a bad economic situation for, for several years. My problem with all of this is that

these are discussions that happened in June. Like, they all know this. Like, the worst case scenario was vetted and talked about, but both. sides. The fact there could be economic calamity for the next three or four years was vetted and talked about by both sides. There are no surprises here. These are the discussions that already took place. And I completely understand, to Sean's point, you can make the ask. But when the ask becomes an expectation about a contract that you already negotiated fucking four months ago, that is that is beyond the pale and so the other thing the other thing about this too is is this and this is my pet theory now total speculation i haven't talked to a soul i've talked to one soul

about this theory and he said i might be right but but that's besides the point we have all seen gary betman in these labor negotiations right and this is a guy who can be inflammatory declarative he could be apocalyptic in his language when it comes to this kind of shit listening to him yesterday at this panel, that was not that guy. I don't think his heart's in this one. I think he probably thought this was all done. And then when he's saying January 1st, it's not as a point of negotiation. It's not as we're going to go back to players and get more shit before then.

I think he's thinking we just went through this in June and now we've got a CBA and let's go get that TV contract and let's fucking go. And then I think what happened was a few owners, some of them quite in influential came to him before the season and said, we don't want to really play because we're going to lose less money not playing than if we do play. And you need to go back to the players and get more shit for us. And I think that whenever the labor shit comes up, Batman is obviously the lightning rod for this. And you already see people being like,

what the fuck happened to the guy we saw in the summer that was getting lauded by all the sports media for being the guy who bought his league back? And now we're doing the fucking lockout dance again. Boy, is that I don't think. fucking Lucy in the football, by the way. Right, exactly. Oh, they did it. There's labor peace in the NHL. Unbelievable.

Right. Exactly. But I think this time he's just, he is literally serving at the pleasure of a few owners that have his ear. Yeah, of course. I don't think, I don't think it's hard to this one. The people that are worried about the season shouldn't be worried about the season. It's, you know, his heart's in it or his brains in it. Like, he knows that they, you're right.

They, they have a deal. For everything I just said, about why it's reasonable and why the players may want to consider. There is a deal that was done and signed. And I think Gary Bettman knows that if the players come back and say no, or the players come back and say, yes, but here's what we want, and it's something that in the owner's view is completely unreasonable, then there's nowhere else to go with it.

And I got to say, like, it's feeling more and more like the deal that the NHL signed in the summer, they screwed up. Like they messed up, man. They signed a bad deal, which is it's stunning to me because how we're so used to for 25 years now, going back to the 92 strike, it's just been the owners almost always seeming to get their way with the players. You know, sometimes in hindsight, not as much as maybe we thought at the time. But it, you know, it's certainly in the Bettman era, this guy always wins, right?

That's his whole thing. That's why he's made more money than any player in the entire. league other than one during the time that he's been here because he's worth it because this guy wins when it comes to this stuff and the fact that you're now looking at a deal in the summer and going maybe they shouldn't assign that maybe they screwed and and you're even hearing some whispers that some of the owners you know maybe didn't see it or didn't really really they just trusted Gary Bettman and now they're sitting there like I really wonder it's a bad habit of mind, my brain always goes to like worst case scenarios in this stuff. Like there is, I'm not saying

it's going to happen. I'm not saying it's likely to happen. But there's a non-zero chance that this could be the start down the path of the end of the Gary Bettman era. He has screwed up badly enough that suddenly that, what seemed like rock solid support that he's always had from the owner starts to crumble a little bit. And then, you know, who knows where it goes from there. Yeah. And if I was Gary Betman, I would say, peace out, motherfuckers. I made you billions. Like, I wouldn't even, I wouldn't even suffer these fools if they, if they tried to like, you know, Donald Trump, Bill Barr, this guy at the door. Like, like, what's the point? Like, he, he had, he was in an untenable situation where he had to both bring the sport back to complete the season while also negotiating a

labor agreement with an entity that all of a sudden had leverage for the first time in his fucking 30 years as commissioner. Yeah. I don't disagree, but it's still, you know, if the owners were always reasonable, we probably would have seen a lot more hockey in the last 20 years than we ended up seeing. But to Sean's point, though, real quick, Lambert, Kevin McGrans' piece in the Toronto Star from a few days ago was the thing that just made me mental. Betman sprung the memorandum of understanding on the board of governors. He unanimously endorsed it. It's believed some voted merely on Betman's recommendation. having subsequently read the MOU after it passed, some are unhappy with it.

Fuck you. I think I said it in the newsletter this weekend, but it's definitely a situation where it's like, look, if I buy a house and they're like, this house costs $75,000 and you're like, what a deal. I have no further questions. And then like you like go to flush the toilet and you find out like there's no plumbing whatsoever in the house. you don't get to go back to the guy that sold you the house and be like, well, you're going to pay to get all this plumbing in there. On top of that, like, we're dealing with a bunch of people that will go to the finest of fine print on contracts in order to, like, get out of them and like work the language to its nth degree. Like, fucking, you know, you get caught with drugs at the Canadian border and all of a sudden your contract can be voided and shit like that.

And then, like, they didn't read the fine print on the fucking CBA. like, and not even the fine print, the summary statement on the CBA. Yeah. Come on. What are you doing? I am genuinely curious as to what the players ask for, because I think that's where this ends. I do think the players are sitting there going like, okay, a yes, there actually probably

is a financial crisis for at least some teams. That's not interest. Oh, absolutely. Yes, it probably is going to be a total Armageddon in six years if we go into a CBA negotiation owing hundreds of months. millions of dollars. Yeah, maybe we should. There's reasons for it.

And yet, like I said, there is absolutely no way that you go, we're going to be nice and like Gary Batman off the hook. He would never do that for you. This is absolutely a pressure point. It's a leverage situation. Go in and ask for something. I'm just wondering what they're going to ask for. Because, I mean, the biggest ask the players could ever have is to get rid of the hard

cap. I don't think that is on the table. I feel like that is the one thing to borrow Bill Daley's phrase. That is the one hill that the owner's. actually would die on. But other than that, I wonder, like, is there, is there one or two big things? Are there, is there like a little, could you put together a little omnibus package of like 10 smaller things and say, we want every one of these?

God, I've, and call us back if the answer is yes, but otherwise we're just going to play. Like, it could go in so many different directions. And it's, yeah, it's advantage players for sure right now, big time. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've even heard that, like, it could be as simple as the player is going, okay, well, now we want interest on that money we're deferring. And so like, you know, if whatever it is, it's like divided up into three years, I think. Okay, yeah, we'll defer, you know, and then that way, three years from now, we're making a pretty good chunk of change on that deferred money. I asked the player about a month ago about the interest thing, and he had a good answer about that.

He's like, look, it's a good theory, right? but we all have financial advisors. And I think if you let us keep that money and give it to our financial advisors, they could probably find a better way to collect interest on that money than the National Hockey League. Oh, sure. Or steal it all from them, which happens. Right. Yeah, if you're Brian Burrard, right, or whoever, yeah.

It's completely true. Yeah. Yeah, it's a tangled web. Again, I am not in the least pessimistic about the season. It's going to happen. Everybody wants it to happen outside of a few. owners that, you know, would rather it not happen without fans. And I come back to a point of just, like, frustration.

I mean, the, and again, like, the force-major trial balloons being floated through the Canadian media proxies this week, like Drager. I mean, it's just happening already with the NHL. And it comes back to the basic tenant in my beliefs about the situation, which is that they all knew this already. They negotiated the CBA during the pandemic. They knew what the worst case scenarios were. They knew it was going to get better.

In fact, one could argue it has gotten better since they negotiated the CBA because we have a better clarity on vaccines now. The thing that blows my fucking mind is that they looked at how the whole pandemic had gone and we're like, you know what? By like January? This is going to be all cleared up, right? By January, this Wuhan flu will just disappear. It's fucking amazing that they looked at the situation and said it's actually going to be insanely better. Not just like a little bit better. Like most parts of the country will be allowed to have fans and maybe full buildings by June.

And it's like, okay, I can't imagine why you would have come to that conclusion as a person watching the events unfold. The other piece of it is they made this deal after. we had watched baseball go through the same thing. Yes. So they weren't even the first league to have to go through a pandemic that was ongoing. Like, you're right. If they had signed a CB in 2019, totally different ballgame. Completely.

That is a situation where the NHL could say this is an unexpected, unforeseeable situation. Yes, of course. But I don't, I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to sit here and say, oh, yeah, they'd never get that through. But I can't imagine how that's. how they're going to sell that. It's just amazing to think that they had to finish the season into hermetically sealed bubbles in Canada,

and then they're just like, you know what, things are pretty good. I bet they get better, too. Honestly, part of me wonders if the end game here isn't that Gary Betman's got two or three or four teams saying, we do not want to play under these circumstances. We're not going to, and you just go, you know what, then don't play. We're going to have a season with 28 teams or 20s or whatever. I don't think it happens.

I don't think it happens. either, but I mean, at some point, if the coyotes or the Panthers or wherever are trying to hold a whole league hostage saying, we can't have a season, at some point you just go, all right, you don't have. Like, this has happened in other leagues. This is not. Sure, it has, but I think the issue here from what I remember Bill Daley telling me and Emily was that it's an all or nothing proposition.

Like, in order for those teams to opt out, they would need board approval. And the rest of the board is going to be like, fuck you. You're playing. You know what I mean? Make them play. Then that's, yeah, that's. the other thing. I mean, this idea that, again, this is why it, this whole, like, we're going to shut down the whole league thing doesn't even feel like a particularly good bluff. You know, I guess

you've got to do what you got to do, but. Maybe his heart's not in it because he can't lock out anybody because they have a CBA and it's just forbidden. Like, it's, it's like his magic arrow that they took away from him, from his quiver. I think his heart's not in it because he's used to winning and his whole, his whole deal is that he wins this stuff. Yeah, and he's on the wrong. ropes right now. Absolutely. He knows that he's not going to win this one. And so he doesn't even want to get in the ring knowing that he's going to get his

his head knocked off. Yeah. The players are Jake Paul in this situation. I'm sorry. I'm not talking about the inventor cane thing. Don't know who that is. I'm very happy that the, that Sportsnet and TSN going for the youth vote are very excited about the story.

I can't get excited about it. I just don't care. It's, it's embarrassing. It's more embarrassing than the like Japanese. suicide forest thing from a few years ago. Which was Logan Paul. Yeah. I'm pretty sure they're the same guy.

Well, no, because no way of knowing. I have to inform you that my favorite thing about this story that I simply don't have the passion to ever even cover. The best thing about it was that Sportsnet did have to issue a correction to its coverage. And I will now read you that correction. Correction, colon. A previous version of this story Misidentified Logan Paul as his brother Jake Paul. So, if you could,

I don't know this for sure, but I'm pretty sure the SportsNet staffer tasked with putting this social post together on SportsNet thought that Evander Kane was trying to fight, it was in a war of words with Jake Paul who he wanted to fight, but in fact it was

Logan Paul and then they had to correct the record. It's just stupid. the whole thing is dumb and it makes me want to pull the covers over my head. And if you want to pull the covers over your head, may I suggest Brooke Lennon? C-minus. It's not good. It's not great, but it got us out of the Jake Paul conversation. It did.

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go do something nice for yourself, for God's sakes. Go to brooklinen.com. B-R-O-O-K-L-I-N-E-N-E-N-B-R-L-O-K-L-N-E-N-D-com. Use the promo code P-U-C-K, P-U-C-K, to get 10% off your first order, and free shipping. That's Brooke Lennon, B-R-L-O-K-L-N-E-N-N-com. promo code Puck for 10% off your first order and free shipping. Brooklennon.com, get there now and get yourself some nice sheets. Oh, and also, what, holiday season?

if you know somebody who's got shitty betting, like get them Brooklyn and stuff. It's a good gift. I've been trying to think about like to get my parents for a gift because like it would normally be a restaurant like gift card, which I guess would come in handy at some point this year. But I don't know if it's necessarily the way to go right now. I don't want to encourage them to use it, I think, is my issue

with the restaurant gift card for my parents right now for Christmas. So, but they still go. but I don't want them to. Right. Is my issue. Right. They like to go to... Lambert, you're familiar with McCormick and Schmix?

I have heard of it. I've never been, but... They go to it when they go to Atlantic City. It's like their favorite place. My parents are the type of people that... If they didn't grow up in Jersey... If they didn't live in Jersey and they weren't like New York adjacent, and they were like visiting New York,

they are 100% of the people that would eat at the... the Applebee's in Times Square instead of going to some local place. Right. It bugs your shit out of me. No, not a modicum of research on Yelp before they go to a place. Just like, what is the thing that we know and then just go there for it? Makes me mental. Like Olive Garden instead of going to the Boston, what's your, what's your littlely called?

The what end is it? North End. The North End. Yeah, they'd go to Olive Garden instead. Hate it. We wanted to make a cursory acknowledgement that this was the 25th anniversary of Patrick Waz blow up with the Montreal Canadiens. We talked briefly before the show about how there absolutely are no takes to be had on this anymore. And it was weird seeing people get really passionate about something that has been really just talked to death about, I think, over the last 25 years.

Correct? I mean, I don't think it's weird that people talk about it. because this is at the end of the day, the anniversary. Probably the greatest player in the modern history of a original six franchise that has never won anything since they traded him away for next to nothing. It is still an interesting story. Like, we had a piece on The Athletic about some of the behind-the-scenes stuff,

and I read the whole thing, and I was still interested in it. But the big takeaway from that piece, and it's something that I think a lot of people don't necessarily know or remember is they were already working on trading this guy. They'd already talked to Colorado in October. And that's the kind of piece because, like, I think it was yesterday was the anniversary of the big blowout game, the 9-0. And he goes to the bench and he says, this is my last game. And obviously that was the breaking point. But I think a lot of us kind of in our minds remember it as Patrick Waugh was a happy Montreal Canadian, this one night happened.

was like, I'm out. And it wasn't that. It was that he wanted out, the team wanted him out. This was headed to a trade almost definitely. And it just, that happened to be the one thing that put him in a position where he was like, screw it. I'm making it so this has to happen tomorrow. But apparently, and I don't think I'd ever heard this before, it was going to be Owen Nolan for Patrick Waugh, was going to be the key part of the deal in October. And then the, and then Sir Chavar got fired, who was the GM working on. it and Owen Nolan got traded to San Jose instead. But it was like it wasn't this because of this game he got traded. It was because the Montreal Canadians had decided I, I, that's the one part I

still don't understand why they had just decided they had to move this guy. He was too big for the dressing room or whatever. Like yeah, when he's arguably the greatest player to ever play the position, he probably is going to be a little bit big. That doesn't seem like a terrible a problem to have. But yeah, we all know how 200 hockey men will talk themselves out of having a star player because he, I don't know, didn't smile or did smile or whatever. Too many high fives, we can all agree. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Too many high hives. For me, the thing about the only, my only take on this whole thing is that I do find it to be one of those fascinating what ifs in the sense of what if this happened in a direction. the social media age, which I know is sort of the hackneyed response whenever we talk about like old news and old controversies. But seriously, like, can you imagine that the minute by minute coverage that night from like reporters on scene tweeting out the aftermath of the wah blow up from that game? Like, it would have been fucking phenomenal. It would have been

like off the record sources in real time talking about what happened. Oh, the athletic would have had their oral history up the next morning. I remember when like social media, do you remember the night that like Mike Camilleri got traded. Yeah, that rocked. Oh, yeah. And they told him, go home, go back to the hotel. Like, that was a huge thing. And that was 1% of this.

And the thing with the wa is going back and watching it, even in, it's one of the rare things. There's a lot of famous moments, clips that when you go back and watch them in real time, people didn't really realize what was going on or the importance of it. And you kind of watch it and you go, oh, that didn't really say. This one, when, as soon as that happened, like the announcers are like, oh, holy crap, did that? did he just talk to the team president? Oh, that's really not good. And it was just like all these shots of the president and everything.

And they just like forgot about the game. I mean, the game was 9-0 or whatever. But they just forgot about the game and went full on into speculation mode. But you're right. You throw Twitter or whatever else into it. It would have been. It would have been incredible. Yeah, it would have been so much fun.

It would be so much fun. I mean, again, like I said, there's nothing really else to say about it. Other than one other thing. And I've been doing a lot of sort of remembering. some guys coverage recently. I did the whole NHL League of Nations gimmick that I did, Puck Daddy, I did it again. Can I ask you a question about that, by the way? Please do.

Why did you make Germany, which has produced like six NHL players ever, its own breakout team? Because it was just like Uve Krupp for this team also. This is a great... Marco Sturm. This is a great question. So I'll answer it by saying,

pulling the curtain back on two aspects of this thing. The first aspect is, if you'll remember Lambert, when we did this gimmick at Puck Daddy, it was a summer project, and like every summer project, it was designed to have other people do the work for us. Sure. It was 31 different bloggers picking the people for their teams. We did that gimmick every summer in order to not work. I took it upon myself to do the project for all 31 teams. And I got to tell you, we're double digits of hours in trying to put this thing together.

It fucking sucked. Putting it together. It was so much work. And now I know why we farmed it out. The second thing is, it's not just Germany. I would say that Slovakia was also a country that had a surprisingly low number of candidates. Yeah, at least it used to have more, though. Yeah.

And so the Germany thing was just like we started at that point of knowing that there were some players that were going to make the cut. But then as we got going and I was too deep into it, it became apparent that there were a lot of teams where it was just like none was the answer. Right. So I maybe overestimated the Germany representation. But the Slovakia, again, like Andre Sakhar. I think was the guy for like four different teams. Right. Like, yes.

Like, the fuck. I'm just glad to hear I'm not the only one who sits down to do like a 31 team project. It gets three teams in and is like, oh, I've screwed up the format. This is a mistake. Oh, well, I've already done three. What can I do? Change those three? No, I'm just going to go and be miserable for 28 more teams.

Right. And I 100% know that you and I have both experienced the sitting down for a project and being like, I'm very excited about this concept. And then you're four teams in. like, this is going to take the rest of my life to finish. Yeah. I just felt like when half the league said Corbynian Holeser, I was like, I don't know if I needed to. Well, what was interesting about that bit was twofold.

One, I cut off the, like, if you were a team that relocated, I only counted the relocated years. So no whalers on the hurricanes, no thrashers in the jets. And that made it a little bit more challenging and interesting. And the other thing about it too is that I went by birth places rather than citizenship. So the blues, for example, like Brett Hall is obviously associated with the U.S., born in Canada, so he gets to be the Canada guy, which means Bernie Frederico gets usurped. But I fucked up one, and it does track back to Germany, which is that I so associate Olaf Kolzig with Germany that I completely spaced on the fact that I completely spaced on the fact

that he was born in South Africa, famously. Right. I have a pretty good, um, under, like, I do a good job of remembering guys who were born in, like, extremely not traditional hockey countries, like the Ragee brothers were born in like Brazil and Indonesia. Right. Um, the word, the wind way was born in Taiwan. I was going to say that, that was the amazing thing. It was like, so I go back and redo the capitals after a reader pointed it out. I'm like, all right.

So we'll just take O'Oll of Kohlzig off of Germany. We'll just move them to, oh, wait, no, there's a guy from Taiwan that's holding down the wildcard spot. And you certainly, I mean, I can't put Oll of Kolsig over Rod Langway for the capitals. And so that was a stunner. I really thought I had that thing on lock for him to be the German guy. It was a fun experiment. I enjoyed it. Whatever, I don't remember which game it was, but it was like one of the NHL games in, like, the mid to late 90s had, like, you could do an international tournament.

and you could do like North America versus non-nor or whatever it was. The world. But they went by birthplace. And so it was like, you're like, why is Owen Nolan on the international team? Why is Steve Thomas on the international team? Oh, Nolan, a nice Irish boy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Oh, right, remembering some guys. So the only thing that I was going to say with the Watt trade was I had completely forgotten about the existence of Jost-Lan Tibo until the Watt trade was being talked about. out again this week. And I remember at that point, he was sort of an up-and-coming goalie, a pretty good prospect. I think he had a couple years under his belt. But again, like the ultimate example of when Montreal makes the trade, give us the guy whose name sounds like Josal Antibo. We'll be all right. I mean, it is. Oh, and the other thing, too, about the Habs, this is the point I wanted to make up the social media bit. Do you, do you guys feel like there's

still is room for GMs to get a pass when their hands are tied? Because I feel like that, you know, like today we see a thing where if a guy demands a trade, then the guy, you know, a team makes the trade. They make the best of the situation. And sometimes it's more about, well, what did you do to fuck up that relationship than it is? How did you fuck up the return for this trade? Sure. I wonder if that would have been the take on the WAA trade if it was made today. It was, it would have been much more focus on how did the marriage break up than what a, what a paltry return you got for one of the greatest goalies of all time. Yeah, I mean, I think people do get a bit more of a pass, but the other thing that's

kind of amazing about this is it's just, you know, 25 years ago, it's a long time, but it's not so long. And yet when you read this story, like the behind the scenes of like Rajahou, having this this rookie GM, he had no assistant. It was like just 100% him. And suddenly he has this star player who goes, you have to trade me. And it was just like the sharks just descending on this guy. And it wasn't like today where like I've said before.

I think that's part of the reason the trade market is so quiet in modern NHL is everyone's got the GM, but you've got three assistants, you got the cap guy, you've got all the analytics guys. And so everybody has to get in a room and say, okay, like there's not a GM anymore who's just like, yeah, I'm making this trade. There's maybe a few, like maybe Rutherford, maybe. maybe poyle guys like that, old school guys. But you used to get crazy trades when it was just one guy. And you just had to talk one guy into it and have to,

you could do it over beers and just be like, all right, look, are we got a deal? Yes or no? Shake hands. That's it. That's how a trade got done. And to hear now that like, yeah, this guy had to make two months into his career as a GM, that job he had never done before, no assistance, no help on his own.

He had to make the call. It's crazy. I'll just, the only other thing I like about the Patrick Wattrade is that to my knowledge, And I'm sure someone will point out where I'm wrong. It is the only bad trade that the fans of the team that made the bad trade have not tried to recon into actually this was a trade. Because if you follow the trade tree, 19 years later, it means that we had an extra $400,000 in cap space to sign some other guy who scored a goal in the playoffs. So actually it was good. Like even Montreal fans are like, no, this was terrible.

Are we saying, I think you'd probably say player for player trades, right? Because there's no rec conning the Tom Kerver's trade either. But for player for player trades. Yeah, that might be the other way. But yeah, it's, yeah, like I don't need to hear more about how Marco Stern was actually the key to the 2011 Stanley Cup. Oh, my God. Jesus. All right.

What do you want to do? You want to do Pyramid or the overrated, underrated first? Oh, let's do the game. Yeah. Okay. I agree. All right. So explain to the listeners, not to me, how the game works.

So this is the, done this a couple of times. It is the $25,000 pieramid, obviously, based on the classic game show. What's going to happen is Greg and Ryan are going to be playing together. They are not against each other here. They are a team. One of them is the caller and one of them is the guesser. And the caller is going to be getting basically clues for, for me, not clues, topics.

And they have to, by saying things that would fit into that category, try to get the other person to say the category. So, you know, as an example, I'm looking at it on the first one we did, one of the first ones was Montreal Canadiens goalies. So if Greg was trying to get Ryan to say that, Greg would say, Kerry Price, Patrick and Johnson, Tiber. Jocelyn Tebow. And Jake Allen and all of that stuff.

And then Ryan would go, overpaid goaltenders. And then once they get it right, we move on. In theory, you've got a minute. I think we've learned from the past, so we won't go too crazy on the clock. They have to give, you know, they're supposed to give actual items. Don't get meta. Don't try to describe the category.

Don't try to get too cute with it. And we just, we see where it goes and we see, we see how well they. What's that? It's five, you don't try to describe the category. It's five words strung together. Two of them are nouns.

One of them is a verb. Anyways, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, you could do it that way. So, that's it. I think that's enough of an explanation. Which one of you wants to go first as far as... Let me...

Can I give the clues first just to kind of warm myself up a little bit? Sure. Okay. So you're... You're going to send it to me on the little chat thing here, right? Yeah, so I'm going to send you... Do we still have the chat thing here? Let's find out because this might...

I think we still have the chat, right? Yeah, we do. Yep. Yes. I see it says test. Did you just send that? That's right. It's Canadian professional wrestlers who... Right. Who romanced, K-Fabe Romance Stephanie McMahon. Correct. That's right. Okay. I'm just got to get set up here and okay. So I am going to get that loaded. I'm going to get ready to hit enter and hit start of the timer. And the next voice you will hear will be Greg trying to get Ryan to guess.

Okay, it me. Here we go. Sutter, Kachuk. Brothers in the NHL. Stazni. Hockey families, multi-generation hockey families. Okay. Jamie Ben, Tyler Sagan, John Klingburn, yeah.

Yep. Oh, Kevin Adams, Bill Zito. GMs. Who used to be assistant GMs? Tom Fitzgerald. New GMs. Yes, there you go. Oh, Nathan McKinnan and Sidney Crosby.

Guys from Nova Scotia. Close enough. Okay. Kevin Weeks. Oh, Darren Pang. NHL Network. John Davidson. Former Blues guys?

Mike McKenna. Retired goalies? Kelly Rudy. Retire goalies who are on TV? Yes. Yari Curry, Asatikin, Mark Messier, Luke Robatai, Guy, Kelly Rudy,

Edmonton Oilers, centers, captains. It's probably a minute, right? Oh, yeah, you guys are well past a minute. Oh, okay, fuck it. It seems like you were having fun. That was supposed to say Wayne Gretzky teammates. Okay, sure.

I don't know. Was there a name that you would have gotten that with? I think you had the right approach. You got to go through the teams. Yeah, you got to go to Messier, Curry, Anderson, pause, Robitai. Oh, yeah, the pause. The pause would have helped. Briefly, Brett Hull.

Right. And then you're going to, if you wanted to get. Sergio Mameso. I don't even know if that's accurate, but it sounds like it is. Could be. All right. Ryan, let me get to. Yep.

I'm going to get that because what I don't want to do is send it to the wrong person because I feel like that would kind of defeat the purpose, yeah. Yeah, just a little bit. All right, so that's good. You guys, I think, got close to five to six. Five, like five-ish, yeah. Five-ish. Test received. We're good.

All right, okay. I'm going to hit start, and I'm going to hit send, and it's over to you guys. The Canadians, the Maple Leafs, the senators, the jets, the flames. Canadian NHL team. Yep. All Canadian Division. Peter Forsberg, Nick Lydstrom. Famous Swedes. Victor Hedman, that's right.

Foo. Brad Marchand sometimes. Famous pests? This is a tough one. There are no... Pass. Okay. Pass.

Oh, man. Geez. Brad Marshand again. Left wings. Boston Bruins, famous pests. Nope. Mario Lemieux.

Uh, um, Oh, Mario Lemieux. Yarmier Yager. Yager. Jesus, what could this be? Jason DeMers when he was on the sharks.

Oh, guys that weren't. Wait, no, that guys were Wait, you guys were numbers in the 60s? That's right. Yes, that's it.

Okay. Do you want to go back to either of the other? No, I'm not going to get either of those. What was the one? Let me, let me try. I'll do, this is, this is it. So you got five out of, well, you got three at a six, I guess, because you passed two. Let me try this one.

Tom Wilson, Ryan Reeves, Evander Kane. Evander Kane. Oh, like goal scorers who fight? or guys would have been suspended. I probably would have given it. It was current players who fight. Current players are fight. So that probably wouldn't be okay.

And then, yeah, if this... Yeah, I think Ryan Reeves would have gotten me there. Yeah, Ryan Reeves is a guy I did not think of. Yeah. No, but it should have said, Paul, fuck. Ryan, Ryan, you were the single worst person to get that category. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Well, but I mean, it would have been just as bad for him to be the one having to guess it. Because that would... Let's just try this other one, too. Brad Marshan sometimes really does open the door to a lot of different possibilities. As soon as you said that, I'm like, oh shit, he's going to have to use Marshan for the number question, too. It's going to completely mess everything. Guys who go for the knees. Guys who lick people.

Real quick, Greg, let me try. This is the other one he passed, okay? The New York Rangers. The penguins, the Oilers, the Maple Leafs. The Rangers. Definitely the Rangers. Let me put it this way. I misread this question.

And so I was, so the answer is teams that were in the second draft lottery this year, I read it as teams that were second in the draft lottery this year. Oh, I don't know what that means. Yes, that would have been. Like, wouldn't it have been one? Like the Kings. One team?

Yeah, exactly. Still the Kings. Now, hold on. Now, again, tempting my fate here by asking a question, during one of these fucking game shows. Yes. Would I have been allowed to say Alexis Lefranier to just, like, juice his mind into getting there?

I don't see why the rules would dig-so. No, I couldn't. I think you have to see. Because it was about teams. Yes. Okay. I mean, you could say whatever you want. It doesn't really.

Greg, are we going back to you as the call? Yeah. All right. Sure. Let me load up here. Load up on guns. All right. Finger friends.

Okay. Wait, where's my... Here we go. Yeah? Here we go. Okay. You ready? Here we go.

Yes, I can see your dots. I've been ready. Oh, shit. Kevin Chattonkirk. Former St. Louis Blues. Guys who retired. Oh, God. I can't even think about what that class...

What it was this year. Guys who got bought out. Pass My brain is mush Alex Petrangelo Yeah No Tori Krug Alex Petrangelo

Oh Blue's defense No Taylor Hall Jacob Markstrom Taylor Hall Guys who signed this summer Yeah Yeah

Free agency Jesus Christ Oh Nathan Gerby Little guys Yeah Yep. The Dallas Stars.

Oh, North Dakota. Teams of wear green. Yes. Okay. Rick Nash, Nikita Filethoff, Sergey Brabowski, David Panarin.

Former blue jackets. Correct. Okay. Nathan McKinnon, Connor McDavid, Seth Jones, Connor Hullabuck, Rimerie. Team North America. Correct.

That's pretty good, actually. You're way past a minute, so I'll cap it there. I could not remember the fucking free agent class. The only name that came to buy was Kevin Chattonkirk. I got to tell you, like, people think this game is like hard on the person trying to guess. It's harder for the person coming up with the clues. I agree. I won't 100% agree. It is, yeah, I could absolutely see that. Completely forgot the entire fucking Boston, St. Louis, Vegas doce dough.

When was that? Like, three years ago, yesterday? Who knows? Oh, my God. Could be anywhere. All right. We'll do one more. Ryan is the caller.

And let me just get Ryan's window up here. All right. You ready, Ryan? Ben ready. All right, here we go. Phil Kessel. T.J. Oshy, Zach Pari.

American-born players. That's right. Team USA players, yeah. Mark G. Erdano, Robin Regere, T.J. Brody until very recently. Flames Defensemen. That's right.

Tom Fitzgerald, Kevin Adams. New GMs, former players that are GMs. Yep, that's right. I can only think of one, and it's Mark Savard. Players who left the game, due to injury? No, pass.

Let's say, Tyler Sagan. Oh, Tyler Sagan. Stephen Stamco's, John Tavares. Yeah. Oh, guys who played lacrosse. I don't know. No. No.

Keep going, keep going, right? Carrie Price. Mark Andre Florey, Matt Murray. Canadian goalies? Nope. According to some people, Tuka Rask, Freddie Anderson. Overrated goalies. That's right.

subjective Millberry Green Um Greer Greer Oh Mike's famous Mike That's right

Yep That's right And yeah So the one that you didn't get Do you want to circle back on it? I'm Severeus again, Stamco's Federov Sergei Fedorov

whof I don't know that one What is it Players who were Who were number 91 I am generally bad at knowing What numbers guys wore The Savard thing threw me off

But you're right Sorry yeah That's a good one I appreciate it You guys You guys Were War 91 right Am I wrong about that?

I believe he did Yeah I think you did Oh no I'm not saying that I was incorrect I'm just saying that like The time I've spent Think of Mark Savard's

Jersey number is infinitesimal. Yeah. No, like I say, I also am not a guy who is thinking about jersey numbers very often. You know what would have gotten me there? Because I think this is accurate and correctly from wrong, Sean. But Yashin, was he 91? That sounds right.

He may have been with the Islanders. Yeah, he was. I think he was actually 19 with the island. The thing that's beautiful about that is it brings us back to the classic Max Afindanoff answer. Yes. Where it doesn't matter what the truth is. I just know in my head that if you tell me Yashon, I'll say 91.

Right. So two takeaways. First, once again, I am not having to send $25,000 to either of you. And I have made a note in my file here to do more questions about jersey numbers. Uh-oh. We might do an all-jurzy number pyramid next time. All right. Let's do an overrated, underrated.

I told the boys that I wanted to do this one because they're all on TV now. And also, uh, just saw, um, a great. Well, not a great, but a very satisfying holiday movie called Happiest Season on Hulu. Have you seen that one yet, Lambert? No, I don't like the guy from Schitt's Creek, so I'm not going to watch it. He's figured prominently into it, and I'm just like, no, not for me. And he's basically the, he's basically the, what's his face from my best friend's wedding? Dermit Mulroney or whatever?

No, no, her gay friend. Oh, sure. He plays that role in Happy Seasons. Happy Season, Sean, for those who don't know, is a movie directed by Clee DeVall. It's a lesbian rom-com about Christmas, and it's McKenzie Davis and Kristen Sturt as the leads. And it's very good. I will say that the happiest season was probably the title in order to get Normies to watch. it that would otherwise avoid a gay rom-com.

But if they wanted to lean into it, I have to say that Ruby came up with the best name, which was Make the Yule Tide Gay. It was a fantastic name for that film. That's it. Yeah, there you go. And I wish they had gone there. I wanted to do an overrated, underrated, favorite least favorite Christmas movies. Now, should we make this quality of the film or acceptance as a Christmas movie or any criteria?

I think it's the quality of it as a Christmas movie. Like, you're sitting down, whatever that means to you, you got your decorations up. Hey, let's watch a Christmas movie. Okay. Because some of these, some, I don't know what you guys list, but I mean, there are, quote-unquote, good Christmas movies that are objectively not great movies, but they work in the season. You wouldn't sit down and watch them in April and think they were a good movie, but. Okay. So if we're going overrated to the movie and Christmas, I might have to go home alone then for like the Christmasness of it.

I mean, it's got a bunch of Christmas accoutrement. I understand the idea of the entire soundtrack is Christmas songs. It's got jingle, little jingle bells and stuff. It's about the importance of family at Christmas. I think this is way off base. I think, but I think you could have based this movie at any point during the winter and not tied it to Christmas and it would have been fine. He just gets home alone and it's snowing out. Yeah, but where are they going?

To France. You know the theory. Like January? Like Martin Luther King Day? It's fine. Yes. Well, they just did this, this movie on the rewatchables on the ringer. But this theory I had heard before, it's actually John Hurd's brother.

So the family's uncle who flies the entire family to France for Christmas. And there's this like urban legend theory that John heard maybe a Chicago mobster. And that's why they're going to France on quote unquote business. The classic thing of like, actually, it takes place in the freaking pretty and pink universe. Shut the fuck up. Right. So I'm going to go. I'm going to go.

for overrated as far as Christmas theming. I feel like it's grafted onto it. Um, hmm. I got to say scrooged. I don't think it's that funny. Yeah.

But also like, it follows a Christmas carol and it's got, but it again could just be like a bad person gets visited by ghosts and could be anything. It doesn't have to be at Christmas. Yeah, I'm not even looking at it through that lens. I'm just saying, I don't personally like that movie very much.

I don't. You find it repellent. I wouldn't even go that far. I just, I don't get why people love it so much. That's it. My overrated is a Christmas story, which I've never seen.

But every time it's been on TV and I've sat down to watch a little bit of it, I'm like, this doesn't seem all that good. Again, overrated, overrated doesn't necessarily mean bad. Maybe it's a perfectly good movie. I have no interest in hearing from people who love this movie.

I'm just saying it's never caught me. It gets held up as this all-time classic, and I'm not seeing it. Hey, it's me. Sean, go over in the corner for a seconds. Ryan. Do you think Sean would like a Christmas story? Yeah, I do. It's fun.

It's a good movie. I feel like all he does is traffic and nostalgia, and that whole movie is about the fucking 50s or whatever. Yeah, only I didn't say Fudge. Everybody cheers. It just fucking loses their mind. because he said fudge. All right, let's go back.

Hey, Sean, good choice. Yeah, you're good. Come back over here, yeah. Underrated Christmas. Oh, of course. No, no, not. Why? We would make it. Different thing.

Cool. Underrated Christmas movie. Gremlins. Gremlins is an incredible Christmas movie. Yeah, that's correct. Commentary on, on, you know, capitalism and the craven want for giving the

right gift at Christmas, even if it is deleterious to the person that you've given it to. And of course, Phoebe Kate tells a story about her dad died trying to go down the chimney and surprise them as Santa Claus. Yeah, that is what an insane

to come up with. Well, there's one character who doesn't like Christmas. What's amazing about this movie is that the entire premise of the movie is like you have these creatures if you get them wet, they multiply if you feed them after midnight, they become monsters, they fucking kill everybody.

And yet the most outrageous thing in the movie is the story that P.B. Gates tells about her father dying in a chimney and that's why she doesn't like Christmas. That is a single most outrageous thing that happens in that film. Yeah, it's

it's really it rules. I think that's really fucking cool that they came up with that. It's such a great movie. Yeah. All right. Underrated Christmas movie, buddy. I guess my problem with this is I feel like a lot of them are properly rated as pretty good.

There are very few that are great and very few that are, hmm. You know what I'll say? I don't know if it necessarily qualifies as a movie. But I watched the shit out of it growing up. It was the freaking the snowman. You ever see The Snowman? It's the animated one where the... The animated one?

Oh, it's a very moving film. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Yeah, the Snowman. Classic. First of all, I want to say I did consider putting Scourge on my underrated. I do like that movie, so I will defend it from Ryan's attack. But I ended up going with a movie that...

I think everybody likes, so maybe it can't be underrated, but we watched it recently, Nightmare Before Christmas. I went into it going like, this is a good movie, and I watched it, and I was like, that's a really good movie, especially for the time, considering animation really hadn't been a thing in the movies outside of the kind of Disney version. I just thought it was really cool and creative. Right. No, it's great.

And probably underrated to people who might see it today because you look at it and go, yeah, but there's lots of cool artsy animation movies out there. And it's like, yeah, partly because crazy Tim Burton went and made this weird movie about people dying on Halloween and turned it into a Christmas movie and it worked. Yeah, I will say that, you know, I think, I think it really resonates with a certain crowd and that crowd is hot topic shoppers. but like even even when you go to we went to Disney World last year and when you go to Disney World we went in fucking September and the amount of Nightmare Before Christmas merch that you can buy there is staggering to me I couldn't believe it you can get like mouse ears theme to the nightmare before Christmas

also when you go around Christmas time they retrofit the haunted mansion to be a nightmare before Christmas that's that is my understanding I And I would be interested in seeing that, but I'm also not going to go around Christmas time. So, where are you going to do? Favorite Christmas movie? I understand the problem with this film is that one of the best things about the movie is that Kevin Spacey is in it. So caveat. Oh, he's going to say, he's going to say Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross's favorite Christmas movie.

It's seven. And also, I have a theory. The box is actually a Christmas present. No, of course I'm talking about K-Pax. No, I'm talking about the ref. The ref is one of my favorite comedies. Dennis Leary is a thief. Yeah, that movie really explores, like, why can't I get a freaking regular coffee?

Right. I got to get a mocha choka, frapa, lappa. Yep, and he's taking drags from the cigarette, and it's a whole thing. It's a very, very great dark comedy. Kevin Spacey and Julie Davis are a bickering, divorcing couple. Dennis Leary breaks into their home and basically takes them hostage while he's trying to rob the place. And then their annoying-ass eccentric family, including Christine Bransky, shows up for Christmas dinner. It's fucking great.

I love the ref. It's a tremendously good film. But again, a Kevin Spacey movie. So take that as you will. And also a Dennis Leary movie, which means it was probably stolen from a Bill Hicks movie. Oh, my God. Totally, like the two of the most repellent to me actors you could possibly pick. And by the way, you know, Sean, it's a Christmas movie.

So it wasn't, he didn't steal it from Bill Hicks. It was regifted from Bill Hicks. Yeah. Just keep that in mind. Exactly. Right. Right. I said last time I don't know if it's a Christmas movie.

I know this isn't a Christmas movie, but the answer is a Charlie Brown Christmas. Oh, yeah, I would agree with that It's fucking rocks! It's so good! That is, yeah, that's a strange fact. I was thinking of some of the shorter ones that aren't really movies, but I'm, like, I'm a fan of all of those, partly because I don't have the attention span for two-hour movies, but I'll, like, watch half an hour of the Grinch or, uh, the one where the little elf looks like William Nealander, uh, Bobble Snowman. Like, I'll do any of that.

My pick was a classic miracle on 34th Street. Oh, yeah. My household as a kid was never like a big Christmas movie household, but that was one that I remember watching a few years. And yeah, it's just a classic. Yeah, it is a... Go ahead. I was going to say along similar lines,

I had only seen like bits and pieces of It's a Wonderful Life on TV for many, many years. And then I actually like went to a movie theater and watched it a few years ago. it's fucking great. It's so good. I mean, not as good as the Maribor Children parody of It's Wonderful Life with Sam Kinnison. Yeah, they flush a toilet in there.

The whole audience fucking goes ballistic. Good, good choices all around. The only knock on Miracle on 34th Street that I have is that I think it created the people bringing in things into a courtroom at a critical moment in the case to try to turn things in favor of the defendant. That's how the law works, man.

Right. In Miracle and 34th Street, it's all the letters that kids write to Santa to prove that it is Santa. But then it was about a few decades later, cancer kids wearing clown noses and Patch Adams. Yeah. So I can't. That's my only not.

In the modern remake, it's going to be all the ballots that were mailed in and dump it on the floor. You're on it. we have 30 hundred TikToks here that say that this man is Santa Claus. 30 hundred, by the way. It's a good number, fucking morrow. Yeah. Least favorite Christmas movie in the sense that it does not need to be a Christmas movie.

Batman Returns. Batman Returns is the sequel to Batman 89, Michael Keaton's second time as Batman. And not the last, by the way, as apparently he's going to be back as Batman in a Flashpoint movie, which is kind of fun. But absolutely no fucking reason for this to take place at Christmas other than Tim Burton made Warner Brothers a shit ton of money. And they said, you can go do whatever you want in this one, buddy. And so he's like, oh, good. I'll make a creepy Christmas movie and put the penguin in it and make him fucking grotesque and have him like black goo in his mouth.

And then like they couldn't sell happy meals because of it. Absolutely no reason to have it at Christmas. Absolutely no connection between Batman and fucking. Christmas. It is one of the most egregious things as far as using the holiday to almost no effect, other than the mistletoe line that Catwoman and Batman share later in the movie. You ever see this movie Christmas with the Cranks? It's one of the worst fucking movies I have ever seen in my life.

Now, hold on. Who were the cranks in this? The cranks were Tim Allen and the great Jamie Lee Curtis. It was Tim Allen. Yeah. So Tim Allen was in multiple, he was in at least four Christmas movies because he was in three Santa Claus. I think he was only in two Santa Clauses. He wasn't in Santa Claus three?

That's Fred Claus. Am I mistaken in that? No, no, no, no. There were three different Santa Claus movies. Well, let me, now I get a click on it, but. The third one had Martin Shorten it, believe it or not. I guess I believe that. Is Christmas in the Crank?

What is the Christmas with the Cranks movie? I forget. They, it's two people who their last name is crank, which is like fuck off. And it's, if I'm not mistaken, because I'm also mixing it up with the Matthew, uh, deck the halls with him and Davido, yeah. Which is another just abysmal movie. But Christmas with the Cranks is Tim Allen and Jamie Lee Curtis have decided their daughter is grown up. She moved away. They're sad about it.

And they're like, fuck it, we're not going to celebrate Christmas at all this year. We're going to go on a Caribbean vacation. Oh, and they get locked in the basement or some shit, right? No, everybody in the town is, like, mad at them because they usually have like a big crazy light display. And everybody's like, well, you got to have the light display. And they're like, we're not having the light display. And everybody's mad. And then, like, the day, like, you know, December 23rd, their daughter calls them and says,

I'm coming home for Christmas after all, and then they have to scramble to meet her expectate. It is miserable. It is so fucking bad. I don't know if you're thinking of the same movie because this movie that I see Christmas of the Cranks has a 5% on Rotten Tomatoes. So it's pretty good. No, I'm kidding. Great cast, though. Ready?

Tim Allen, Jamie Lee Curtis, and Dan Aykroyd as Vic Frommire, the crank. domineering neighbor and the ward boss of the neighborhood. So it sounds like a real good Dan Aykroy performance. He's scolding them about they don't have Santa on their roof or whatever the fuck. And by the way, you were right. There is a third Santa Claus movie from 2006. What? Yeah.

Wow. Yep. Oof. All right. Least favorite Christmas movie, Sean. My least favorite Christmas movie is Die Hard because it's a great movie. and I'm so sick of hearing people argue about whether it's a Christmas movie. I can't believe we are still in 2020.

Oh, what's my favorite Christmas movie? You're here about Die Hard? And it's like, yeah, fucking lethal weapon is also a Christmas movie. Every year. Every Christmas, I think this is the year that we're not going to do this stupid thing again. And people are still like, like even the hot is a hot dog a sandwich people gave up eventually. But we're into like decade three of Die Hard is actually, you know,

A lot of people don't know this, but diehard is to shut up. Please, stop. It's an awesome action movie. It is my least favorite Christmas movie. I mean, it's about, you know, the rejection of avarice in favor of reconnecting with family. Oh, my God. But, I mean, other than that, it has no Christmas themes to it. But have you guys tried?

You think I wore a hat one scene? Have you tried? Ho-ho-ho. Have you tried? Have you tried Habonero bacon? because it's fucking great. Okay. Bacon is so good.

You ever put donuts, freaking bacon? Oh, oh, boy. But, you know, I don't think we've ever talked about, because I know your takes on Epic Bacon Guy.

Did you know that Lachie and I went to a bar in Dallas where they did bacon flights at this bar? I think you told me that, yeah. That's got to be the worst Epic Bacon Guy thing in the fucking planet, right? I don't know.

I mean... Oh, God. If it was a lot. If they find a way to put bacon in sour homecrafted beer, then that's it. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. The beer was the beer. You ordered the bacon as like match the kettle sour with the bacon kind of shit. That's the next thing.

It's just combine them and then it's, yeah. Speaking of which, did you see the article in the Seattle, I think it was the Seattle Times this week, where it's like, yes, so about the whole. release the crackin thing. Hasn't really gone as expected. And I was thinking about that because there have to be released the cracking T-shirts, right? So are they selling a fuck ton of those to 100% they are, yeah.

Oh my God, that's so good. That rocks. That's so fucking funny. They actually had to call the team to be like, do you have any comment on the fact that your name and slogan have been co-opted by a bunch of lunatics? You are now Q-Anon adjacent? Yeah, that. Hugo Chavez returned from the grave and created voting machines to steal the election from Donald Trump. Oh, man.

And weirdly, now the most popular free agent destination for NHL players. I can't wait. Dustin Penner was just named Assistant GM. It's crazy. All right. That is Puck's who for this week. I'm sure Bobby Orr would like to be involved. Their H.L affiliate is going to be the, uh,

Idaho Stop the Steelheads. Oh, that's fucking amazing. Thank you. Wow. Very good. Holy shit. All right. On that note, thanks to Brooke Lennon for sponsoring the show.

Again, it's the off-season. If we don't have Brooklyn and you're not hearing the show, which means that you would have been deprived of all this incredible hockey content. I'm Greg Wischinski. You could read my column on The Angry Beaver. a hockey bar in Seattle that is desperately trying to hang on during COVID to be around for when the Cracken arrive and the fans that are trying to save it. As we've talked about in the show, a lot of my stuff is now on ESPN Plus, the quote unquote paywall that we have that a lot of our writers are behind. But you could still read the news stories and the roundtables and shit in front of it.

And, and that's, that's, that's me. Uh, sign up for the fucksuit Patreon. We're doing, uh, more, uh, mail, or longer, rather, mailbags, uh, in the off season here. We're, uh, doing bonus episodes. We're doing, uh, newsletters. We're doing episodes of stick to sports. We're, maybe, uh, around the time, uh, the winds of winter and cyberpunk 277 come out getting a Taco Bell article.

So, you know, it's all going great over there, and it's cheap, and you get a lot of content for your money, so check it out. Yeah. It's the Chinese democracy of Patreon articles. Come on. You mean it's good? I mean, you have to be good. It's going to be good.

Athletic. And I had a quiz this week about trades. So if you enjoy quizzes, go. Check that out. People did very poorly on it. So you have a good chance to be above average. On Friday, I got a piece going up where I'm pitting two rosters against each other. It's Team Pim versus Team Bing. It's a roster full of Lady Bing winners versus a roster full of guys who led their own team in penalty minutes at some point. Because I'm completely out of things to do. And so this is the sort of stuff I got going on now. Check that out. All right. Thanks everybody for listening and we'll talk to you on the mailbag on the Patreon and then, you know, we'll see what happens next week.

Who's even, who could tell what the future holds unless you, you know, sign a contract and then four months later you don't know what's happening anymore. All right, everybody, talk to you soon. Bye. See you. Bye. Bye. Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. cover movies, TV shows, eats and tools, it's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense.

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