Puck Soup - Tank Battle

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slap shots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. We also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects. I'm Sean McIndoo from The Athletic. And, well, not really a lot going on in hockey this week, I got to say. It's been a bit slow.

There isn't, there isn't, I guess. Like, nothing major is happening, although it does feel like some major stuff could happen in the near future. And I guess we'll talk about that. Probably an hour after. A hundred percent. But I wanted to lead off talking about the hockey Hall of Fame. And we touched on it a little last week. I'm not, like, mad about anybody who got in this year.

No. Because I'm not like a 52-year-old Canadian. Even if you are that guy, like, the time to be mad is in the summer when the class gets announced. When they get inducted, you just got to be like. No, it's a two-for-one. You get to be mad twice. It rocks. I just stay mad.

Twelve months a year. That's my secret. Hockey Hall of Fame. Yeah. So I guess, you know, again, am I like a big, oh, Daniel Alfredson should be in the Hall of Fame? I don't even think maybe, like, there's an argument that the Sedeans kind of shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame, although I'm not. Again, those guys have like MVP awards. I'm not going to get mad about it.

Luongo's the only one where I was like, yeah, no question about it for me. This is an easy one. And I don't think that's like an outrageous thing to put out there. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'm not from Ottawa or whatever. But no, it's, I mean, Ottawa fans would unanimously say Daniel Alfredton's a Hall of Famer, but I think everyone else can see that it's a gray area call. It's, it's like I have just a whole group of guys where I'm like, look, my Hall of Fame stance on these guys is I won't be mad either way.

Yeah, I'm not, I think Alfredson, you know, every, like, he'd been eligible for a few years. and every time he didn't get in and people up here got really mad, I was like, no, I mean, you look at the numbers. You can't be mad that he's not in. But then when he did get in, I was like, okay. Sure. That's fine. Who cares?

Like, it's, he was a borderline case, and borderline cases very often eventually do get in. Yeah. I read the thing Pierre LeBron wrote about it. And I think what he said kind of resonated with me of like, basically he said, you know, if you're a small hall guy, the tide's gone out on what you're, what you're looking for here. We're done with that.

Which is like that really, I was like, yeah, I guess I would never say I was like a really small hall guy, but I was often saying like, that guy, you know what I mean? So maybe I am a small hall guy and I didn't. There have been two, I would say. say like indefensively bad selections in the last few years. And that's Guy Carbono and Kevin. Henrik Zedine. Carbono and Low both should not have been in.

Both of them, you know, I mean, it's, it's, the case was very, very weak. Carbono especially so. And I bring that up only because I have seen, you know, this is the time of year where people start throwing out their favorite players and, making the case why they should. And those guys get brought up. You know, if Guy Carbono is in the Hall of Fame, then what about? And, you know, I'm not small hall, but I'm also not like, we can't just let in everyone

who is better than Guy Cardinal because we literally don't have enough slots with four players a year. I mean, there's, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, and, you know, same with, with Kevin Lowe. And, and so I guess all I would say. I'm not a small hall guy, but if your argument for a player invokes either of those names, it's probably a bad argument. Because at the end of the day, like they just, they screwed up. It's a committee.

It's private. You know, Gaea Carbino and Lowe are both guys who've worked in hockey and probably have a lot of friends. And we can figure out how it all went down. But that doesn't mean that now, like, Yeri Layton has to get in the Hall of Fame because E. Carbono did. Right. Um, yeah, like I say, I think for, for me, I, I, I just, I think, I hope that I remember that this is my take. I'm done caring about who is in or not in the Hall of Fame. Because if we're going to get worked up about fucking Paul Henderson every year. And, hey, granted, they just, uh, I don't know if you saw, but Scott Morrison got added to the committee. And, uh, Scott Morrison just wrote, uh, like just published a book about the 72 Summit series. So I, I, uh, uh, I feel like I really hope that this year being the 50 year anniversary that like we we dodged the bullet this year. Because look, I love Paul Henderson.

He's not only did he to score very famous goals for Team Canada, he was a Maple Leaf, you know, before my time. But still, ex-leaf guy has been around the team. Big Paul Henderson fan. He can't be in the Hall of Fame. Like, it's, the argument is crazy to me that based on one. goal. Hey, no, they said yesterday, it's three goals. Three goals, yeah, we all remember.

Here's the thing that struck me is weird. I saw somebody, people were arguing, like, most famous goal and somebody was like, well, it's definitely the most iconic goal. And I'm like, if you went up to hockey fans and you were like, describe in detail the Paul, without watching it, describe the Paul Henderson goal in detail, the way that you would for an iconic. goal. I don't feel like a lot of people would be like, I think he was like kind of in front of the net

and that was, and he shut the puck in, like, it's not like the Bobby Orgel or any number of other ones. Sydney Crosby, 2010. Yeah. That's the most iconic goal of all time. Sorry. You would think. And

Sidney Crosby should go in the Hall of Fame, so checkmate. That's true. He should. You know what? I agree. That's not going to be a tough sell for me. Sidney Crosson should be in the hockey. It's like I said to somebody, like if Rob Zamner had scored the gold medal winning goal in the 98 Olympics, that would have been cool as hell. And also he should not have been in the Hall of Fame.

It's a crazy. And have you noticed this? He shouldn't even be in the Hall of Fame if you only let in Joe Thornton linemates. Like that's where Rob Zandner's at, right? Have you noticed this? Am I imagining this? Or it feels like there is a certain argument. that has come out more in the last year or so.

I don't remember hearing it very much, but I've heard it a lot for Paul Henderson. I've heard it for a few other candidates where people say, you know, it's not a hall of greatness or a hall of statistics, it's a hall of fame. And if the player is famous, they should be in the hall. And Paul Henderson, and those goals are so famous. Mm-hmm.

Or this player is so iconic with his team and, you know, is so well. and I'm just kind of like, I, yeah? I mean, I get that that, there is an element of it where you're like, yeah, this player was really well known for a certain. But, I mean, that's, does that feel new to you? Or have people always been saying that? I was just tuning it out. I think the people who are real freaks about certain candidates who should, by all rights, have no shot, have, like, found a new, like, plan of attack. back for, you know what I mean?

Like, they're just like, oh, this is actually, it's not, it's not the Hall of Very Good, but it is the Hall of Fame. And fame is, you know, a thing that I can use for or get. Now, the thing with saying fame is, if you go and look at who's in the Hockey Hall of Fame, a lot of people are going to be like, oh, I've never heard of this guy. That's what I say. Like, if it's a Hall of Fame, then there should be like three people in the Hockey Hall of Fame, right? Like, you should be like, Gordy, how, Wank.

Gradsky and Bobiore, and that's it. And like, you know, maybe Sydney Crosby gets in someday. But, like, that's, it's, it's, that seems like a very weird argument for the NHA. And then people turn around and they use it on the strangest guy. Like, can I just throw it a name that I want to get your feedback? Sure. I know you've just, I know you've just finished saying that you don't particularly care, but I'd, I'd love to get your, your opinion on this, because I'm fascinated by how this case is played out over the last decade. Where are you at with Rudbrenne? Um, you know, I, I guess, I guess I would say no, but as he continues to build up his like coaching career, I think the case improves just because you can maybe put him in as like kind of a hybrid builder. Now, keeping in mind that in theory, that's not on the table. In theory, player and builder are completely separate categories.

Right. Now, again, like, did it help Kevin Lowe's case that he was a GM and, you know, did all this stuff? Absolutely. Well, it shouldn't have, first of all. Well, yeah, but. I'm saying just because he was bad at being a GM, like famous. Excuse me. I think he knows a thing or two about winning.

Wasn't that his press conference quote where he was getting off? Remember he had that? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it rocked. But I'll tell you exactly what this, like, new hall of quote. unquote fame we're talking about here is I was talking to someone about the Hobie Baker Award over the weekend given to the most outstanding player in college hockey and that's all it says

in like the description or you know like the headline and then if you like look at the fine print they go oh he's got to be a nice guy too or whatever he's going to like volunteer whatever you know and the thing I always say is they only use that aspect of it if they decide this is a guy who does not deserve the Hobie Baker but we've decided he's going to win it like Dryden McKay last year you know the the goalie that just kind of they decided halfway through the season this guy's going to win it didn't even matter that he wasn't the best goalie in college hockey it was because he's really nice or whatever I and it's like yeah I just want to point out that he signed with the Maple Leaf so my opinion

of, well, right. And he also, uh, he also got a band by the, uh, anti-doping,

uh, remember that? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Whoops. Um, but it's the same thing.

It's like, well, no, I know he doesn't like deserve it, but like, he's famous or he's nice or whatever. And that's, and that's,

it's the same. So people just decide who they want to win stuff and the, Drew Dowdy, perfect fucking example. We decided Drew Dowdy was going to win the Norris one year. And so we did. We had a, we had a,

win it. That's how it works. Here's my thing on Brindamore. Because the... Oh, yeah. Did you see the thing on ESPN where somebody was like listing the candidates for next year? What's that guy's name?

Gong Wiflipski, I think. Sorry. That sounds right. Yeah. I'm sorry. If I pronounce your last name wrong. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I apologize. He's got Henrik Lunkwist number one. Yeah. Lock for next year.

Mortal lock, Henrik Lunkwitz. He's got a few women mentioned and I mean, they should be inducting. They've got a backlog and the fact that they keep inducting just one instead of two, to be stubborn is a jerk move. Insane. I'll say this. Can I say this real quick on that? It's ridiculous that people are going, well, what about Paul Henderson?

Meanwhile, like, the third greatest woman to ever play hockey. Yeah. Like, she has to beg and plead to get in as the one person who gets in per game. It's fucking outrageous. And especially the fact that, you know, with the women, it's, you know, because of the lack of a, you know, a really high-level pro league. Yeah. It's all international accomplishments. Yep.

But they're like, okay, but what about this one guy who had a good week international? And they're like, I've got four gold medals. Yeah, but this guy. Salon, and like literally the best player in the world at, you know, for, for what, like a decade maybe? And the problem is it was before a lot of people started watching women's hockey in a serious way. That's why. And, you know, I guess you can make the argument that like women's hockey wasn't really taken seriously at the international level for a really long time. And so, like, it isn't really her fault she told.

But I guess that's my point, though. It's not her fault that she happened to be the best player pre-1998 or whatever. Yep. Absolutely. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say about that, like, that we're trying to really squeeze in all these bums from the men's side. But, like, a woman who's like, oh, no, I spent like a decade as the best player alive. And people are like, fuck you, get lost. And not because they're putting other people in.

but because they're literally just leaving an empty slot, just being like, no, we're not going to use, we can't find anyone else. It's ridiculous. Number three on Gong's list is Alexander McGilney. Absolutely. I mean, no defense for that omission. Then he's got Sergey Gonchar, a few of the other names.

He mentions Curtis Joseph. Hendrik Zetterberg in his second year. Keith Kach is still an interesting one. But then he's got Brindamore as number six on his list, Number four among the men's players. So in theory, this means that if he was picking, he would put, you know, that would be his class, would be Lunkwis, McGilney, Gonschar, Brindamore. And here's the thing. I said like the evolution.

I remember 10 years ago I wrote a piece about Marian Hosa. And this is when Hosa was still active. But at the time, I had people telling me like slam dunk first ballot Hall of Famer. And I was like, hmm. really like is marian hosa going to be a first ballot hall favorite turn said he was those people were right but i was kind of looking at the case going like you know like yeah he's going to have over a thousand points he's a good two-way player and i remember at the time i said if why would marian hosa be a slam dunk if nobody even considers rod brindamore to be in the

discussion and i'm someone who i follow this stuff pretty closely yeah and 10 years ago you never heard Robert Rindamore's name. Right. And I said, but this guy had 1,200 points. And he had two Selkies. And Marion Hosa never won a Selke. So I said, you know, why would- - Mary and Hosa never won a Selke? What over would we live? No, he was a winger. So, yeah, I mean, sure, that's why. But, you know, I was just trying to make the point that, hey, maybe Hose's case isn't as strong as you think, because it seems pretty comparable to a guy who is getting, like I said, no buzz at all. Yeah. And, and I'm not saying that that influenced anyone. just saying 10 years ago, whenever I wrote it, you just never heard Rodmer and Bored Bored

Borence name. And over time, it is sort of, his case seems to have like gained momentum. And I think a lot of it's because he was coaching, you know, because as a success he's said as a coach and he's still been very visible and all of that. But, you know, to the point now where, you know, places like ESPN are listing him as like a guy who should be in. And I know there's like Carolina fans that are just absolutely adamant on this. And I'm just kind of sitting there going, like, Rod Brindamore? Yeah. Like a guy who was the second line center on his team for his entire career,

like never. And, you know, I had someone say, well, yeah, because he played behind Eric Lindross and Ron Francis. And okay, sure. But, like, 1,200 points is great, but he played for 20 years. So we're talking, like, average 60 points a year, including at least some of that in very high-scoring era. Yeah, he won the two Selkees, which is, is. is great. But again, are we putting

Jerry Layton in for having three? Are we putting NACA in? We are now. That's the point. The first thing, the ESPN, the very first thing, Guy Carbono went in the Hall of Fame in 2019

and left the door open for Brindamor. Yeah, I get it. And the other thing that I've had multiple people make the case, because I will tell you, there's people in the hockey world love Rod Brindamor. They just love the guy.

So they're trying to find a reason. But I've had multiple people say, well, think of the influence he had on fitness in this game. And I'm just like, is that, I, you know, I get it, but. I guess the warlord should be in the WWE hall thing because of how Yoked he was, right? Like, is that what we're saying here? Like, not because it wasn't that. It was his, obviously that's stupid.

It's not just like, hey, the guy was ripped. It's the habits and everything And, you know, that he's, he was sort of at the forefront. Yeah, put Gary Roberts in the Hall of Fame then. That was exactly what, what I've said in a few cases too. And, yeah, so I don't know. I just don't feel like the case for Brindamore is very strong. It's too late.

The horse is out of the barn. Who cares? You know, like, this is my point. I could get mad about like Rod Brindamore. That probably doesn't really deserve it. Like, if we're being serious. But it seems like everybody's just decided we're maybe two, three, years away from Rod Rindamore making it.

And everybody, and like, I just decided I can't get fucking mad about this shit anymore. Because these people don't take it seriously. Why should I? One season in his 20-year career. And, you know, when you're talking to Rod Rindamore, by the way, the 20 years, like, he played a full 20 years. This isn't like, there are guys where it's like you say, they played this many years, but they have like a few seasons where they haven't played one or two. Like, he played 20 full seasons.

He had one year where he got Hart Trophy votes. Yeah. 19 years where nobody was even like, I don't know, man. I just don't see him as. We are a decade away from a Shane Don't candidacy. 100%. Not even a question in my mind. I feel like we went closer than that.

He played 1,500 games. He didn't score, he didn't get to 1,000 points. He barely got over 400 goals, right? And this is a guy who played 21 seasons in the NHL. And it would have been more, you know, with lockouts and everything. But it's like this guy played 1,500 games. He was never, I don't think he ever once got a single heart vote. Yeah, I'm looking here.

A couple of times. His highest Selky finish is 25th, right? Like, but he has a Messier leadership award from like five years before he retired. He won the King Clancy. And once Arizona becomes like an actual good hockey market, if it ever happens, they're going to go, there is instantly going to be a, well, Shane Don should be in the Hall of Fame push. It's going to happen. And I just, I just, I can't get mad about it anymore.

That's it. I'm done. I'm, again, I hope I remember this take in the summer. And I won't let you. Great. I'm going to fire you. I'm going to be like, remember six months ago you said that this was really important to you personally? I'll just, I'll just, I'll leave it to this.

Here's Rod Brandemore's and I, this is not a perfect stat, but his top three similarity score, the hockey reference, similar story, where they compare your point shares across career, etc. same three guys whether you do career or 21 year his three most similar players Vincent Danfus, Jason Arnaut, Ray Whitney Great All good players But I just feel like

I feel like 10 years ago I was one of the very first people to mention his name and now I'm like Derexively Wait a second Hold on no no Like Of all my takes

All my wise takes that All my wise takes that nobody buys into. This seems to be the one that has actually had some sort

of minor influence and it was one that I was trying to make the exact opposite point. You did reverse psychology to the voters. I'm just saying

Rod, when you get in next year, you got to thank me in the speech. That's right. And then please don't beat me up

afterwards. He's definitely going to. The other thing I guess we should mention is Boria Salming made the trip out

from Sweden. That was awesome. That was so good. And, yeah, it was really, really cool. So he, you know, if people don't know, the legendary defenseman of the 70s with the Maple Leafs and into the 80s, the first Swedish star to come across, really, the first European star in the NHL was an amazing player. And also just, you can only imagine, I'm sure, the crap he had to put up with in the 70s as, like, the first European star. in an era where we all knew that Europeans were soft and scared. And so you've got all of these Canadians ready to take a run at this guy in the 70s

when taking runs at guys was just part of the game, just constantly running at him, suckering him, doing everything to get him to quit and go back home. And he puts up with all of it is one of the best defensemen of the era, one of the most beloved Maple Leafs of all time. and then this summer announced he's he's battling ALS and it's a very, a very tough fight for him. I mean, that ALS is always just a real,

a real bastard, but I guess in his case, you know, it's even tougher than, than maybe it would be ordinarily. But he was able to get out there. He can no longer speak. You know,

has a very difficult time, even getting around, but they, And Ellie Friedman, I thought, in his 32 thoughts this week, had a really good piece about that because he talked about some of the people behind the scenes making it happen. Like me as a fan, like you see Salman come out and it's amazing. And he was with Daryl Sittler and like Sittler's in tears and Sundeen's there. And it was just like a fantastic moment. But you just kind of think that, you know, it doesn't just happen.

Like a guy like he doesn't just materialize in Toronto. And like there was this whole behind the scenes thing happening to. to make that happen and to give that moment to the Leafs and Leaf fans and to Salming and his family. And then the Leafs on Saturday night, they started like six Swedish players, which was just cool as hell. It was great. It was just like, you know, I come on this podcast and just complain constantly about everything. This was just a pure like 10 out of 10, fantastic moment. No notes. No, you know, it was done absolutely perfectly and couldn't have happened. more deserving guy. Yeah, that was one of those things, you know, they always say, like,

who does ceremony better than Montreal, you know? And this is right up there with the best of what Montreal has done since I've been watching. And Toronto very often doesn't do that stuff well, but this was just, you know, and like huge ovation from the fans and, you know, like, Sittler, like lifting his arm so that solving could wave to the fans. Like if you're not, if you're not getting choked up watching that, I don't,

I don't know, man. Like there's, that was, that was highlight of, of the season for me so far. Absolutely. All right, while we're on the subject of the Leafs,

why don't we start talking about, uh, it's not going to happen anytime soon, but like, uh, or, you know, not particularly soon,

I think, but it feels like we are in, in the midst of like, teams are going to start buying and selling any moment. And we can start with the leaves, obviously. They're going to be looking for a defenseman with Jake Muzin. Maybe career ending, question mark.

Like, really scary stuff. You hate to see it. The out long term will be re-evaluated in February. So, and, you know, past votes from, yeah.

Revaluated does not mean like out for, three months, like it means quite likely out for the season. But in the case of the way it works with the LTIR, the Leafs get that salary space, but it's not like regular salary space where it accumulates and sort of compounds as the season goes on. So they they kind of need to know if he's coming back before they decide whether they can spend that money. Because if they spend his $5 million and then he can come back, now they're $5 million over the cap. So they probably won't go out and get a big name until they have more clarity, but certainly frees them up to be big players on something at some point if this goes

the way we think it's going to. Yeah. But anyway, the point being, they do, like, as much as they don't want to go over the cap, they need defensemen in theory. But you want to know my dangerous take? here is they need a fucking forward. That's to me, like, I watch these guys and I'm like, oh, you know, obviously like, Marna and Matthews are going to get their feet under them, start putting the puck in the net.

They won't be like, what are they like, 23rd in goals right now, 24th maybe? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, this, but part of this is like everybody's been saying for years, Leif's, oh, you can't just, you're not going to win 5'1 in the playoffs. And like Sheldon. After last night, they're up to 20th. Sheldon Keith has been working very hard to turn this into another 2-1 team that plays playoff style hockey. So this is sort of what you wanted.

You know, they're not going to be a top five goal-scoring team because they're trying not to be. But I think you also, even if you're in that realm, you don't want to be 20th in goals per game. No, you don't. You know, like you don't want to look up and be like, oh, I guess. the Winnipeg Jets and like the Seattle Crackner scoring more goals per game than we are. That's not great. No. No.

The New York Islanders have like an extra one third of a goal per game. That's not going to cut it, you know? And again, like Matthews and Marner are going to get going here and maybe, maybe that's enough to convince you. But like, if I'm Kyle Dubas, I'm out there looking for a forward. I get enough like, you know, B minus defensemen. Especially, yeah. The interesting thing with the defense is, you know, they do have like Jordy Ben and guys like that hanging around. But they've also got the younger guys where it's sort of like, do you just, is this where you spend the next two months going, all right, you guys are going to play second pairing minutes, Sandy and Logan, those guys.

And, you know, get some power play time and all of that. We're going to see what we really have here and then come back to it. But, yeah, like the bottom six on the Leafs is not scary. at all. Not at all. And that's what they've done. That's what they've had to do each year because of their cap situation is sort of put together this discount depth line or two.

And it's worked the last few years. They've been able to do it pretty well. And then this year it hasn't worked. Like nothing's really clicked. They've already waived the one guy. It's a lot of it. It just isn't clicking. So they're kind of like, you know, Matthews and Marner have not been great together.

they've been split up a little bit. Which is funny because Matthews and Marner are both point of game players. But you're sitting there looking at them. Like, can these bums get going, please? Yeah. Yeah. No, there's that. And then John Tavaris has been very good.

You know, production-wise, some of the other numbers aren't as strong and Nielander as well. But it is sort of like, you know, the knock against the Leafs for years was like, oh, yeah, but you're paying all your money to those four guys. You don't have anyone else. And it was always kind of like, yeah, but we do have other. guys. Like look at, you know, what about, and now it is starting to feel like maybe it is kind of just those four guys. Although Michael Bunton got two goals last night to, he did. He has not been productive at all this year. No. And if he gets back on track, that maybe helps. But yeah, I've seen

other people say that another forward might be the priority over a defense. Yeah. And especially because as you say, they're trying to play two one hockey, get into the playoffs and maybe win it that way. It's like, well, no, the reason they keep losing in the playoffs is because they can't score. That's why they keep losing in the playoffs. And so, like, just another reason to get the, get another forward in the mix. So, yeah, Nick Folino is going to be the answer again. I guess the other thing to say is, it seems like we're in a situation where a lot more teams are interested in buying than selling. Right. As much as, oh, you know, I'd be willing to trade Eric Clark.

Eric Clarkson, I don't know who that is. Eric Carlson, I'd be willing to trade Eric Carlson. Oh, would you? You'd be willing to trade the guy who makes 11.5 million bucks a year and has like six years left on that deal or whatever? That's interesting. Cool. But like, you know, the senators are looking for help on defense. We've heard a bunch lately. And it's like, wait a second. The senators. Who's that guy you said the sharks might trade? But I guess my point is, is really funny that the senators who are like tied for last in the NHL by points right now. And second last in points percentage, if I'm not mistaken. Or like, you know what?

We need to go get some help. Fellas, the horse is out of the barn here. Season's over. No, it can't be. Not in, it's. It has to be. No. Just like, if there is.

I mean, it's getting close, but it's there. No. It's the only people who should be saying it's still, like the ball's still in the air or whatever, are people in that front office who are trying to convince people to buy tickets. Out of the playoffs. I didn't realize it was that with games in hand. No. They have 11 points from 15 games.

Dom's model has them at 7% to make the playoffs. It's over. So what, but if there's 7% to make the playoffs, What percent are they to be in the playoff race? I won't say stay because they're not in it right now, but to be in the playoffs. Because that's the goal. That's what they have to do this year.

They can't do another year of being last. Just, you know, as I put in my column today, the thing with the senators is you could absolutely look at this team and go, hey, man, fire up the tank. Like, go out and get. But the problem is Pierre Doran is sitting there going, especially with new ownership coming in, all of this. this, he's sitting there going, if I tank and earn another high draft pick, I'm not the GM who's making that pick.

Somebody else is going to be going up to the podium. Well, we take Carter Bredard and everyone cheers. And I'm going to be sitting at home unemployed because it's now been six years in a row that my team stunk. Yeah. I mean, I get what you're saying. But that's what I'm saying. Like the only people, the only people who are like, you know, it's just a little airborne.

It's still good. It's still good. Yeah. is like the Pierre door like people who have a vested interest in the Ottawa senators being vaguely competitive like what I guess the question is what do you mean by by being playoff competitive like do you think are we going to say like oh they could end up seven points out or whatever I mean they play games in March that matter I think there's an almost zero like a maybe not 7% but like 12% chance of that like they look at horrible. Full stop. They, well, I mean, they've looked, their record looks horrible. The underlying numbers suggest that they have been much closer to break-even team. Sure, but they don't have any talent on defense, really, especially with Shabbat out long-term.

Well, potentially long-term. Potentially. For now, it's a week. And the other thing is they don't have, they don't have, they don't have, uh, they don't have, uh, anybody in goal where you're like, oh, they could absolutely trade it around or turn it around and get elite goaltending all of a sudden, blah, blah, blah. Not elite, but Camp Talbot hasn't played much this year because he was hurt. So, I mean, that is.

Yeah, but it's Camp Talbot. Yeah, no, it is. Like, that's my point is, what did we say? I don't think anybody thought they'd be this bad, but what did we say going into the year? They're going to have to win a lot of five, four games. And maybe they, maybe if De Brinket doesn't start slow or whatever, we're talking about a different situation, but he didn't start slow. And now they have a 7.7% chance to make the playoffs. And again, I just kind of look at it and go, this is, this is a tough one for me.

It is tough. I just, I just don't see how they can throw in the towel. Just practically speaking for Characterian and would you do it? you're Peridorian and you're getting fired if they finish last. I mean, what do you? He might get, he might get fired anyway the way they're playing. Yeah. It's a tough sell, man.

People get, because this team has been done by the end of November years in a row now. And this was the year, again, like they're out there, they're selling the tickets, they get DeBrinke, they get Claudeau to come home. There's finally optimism for the first time in forever. to throw in the towel in... And they go 5-9 and 1 in their first 15 games. But to throw in the towel on a team that is, you know, again, playing better than their record would indicate,

oh, man, that's just... I see where you're coming from. If I'm... If I was... like simming this out as a computer, I would absolutely be like, hey, of course, tank. You know, but this is, you know, is real life and you've got to, like,

keep the fan base engaged and all this. I don't know. Find it with Ryan Reynolds thinks. It's check with Deadpool. I believe Pierre Dorian said he met Ryan Reynolds the other day, and he was like, it was nice. For him, yeah, it was probably very cool for Ryan Reynolds to meet. He probably walked up and hugged him.

Wow, the Pierre Dorian. Wow. That's great. Awesome. No, but like, I guess my point is that, like, for all the stuff about, oh, look at how tanking has worked out for, for so and so. Look at how tankings worked out. The sabers would be the cautionary example.

The savers, the coyotes, whoever. Look how tanking worked out for the 10 in, oh, in their last 10 games, New Jersey Devils. Look how tanking worked out for the Tampa Bay Lightning a decade and a half ago or whatever it was. Look how tanking worked out for the Colorado Avalanche. You know? Like, you don't. You absolutely. tank season is here.

It really is. I just think there's, I just think there's going to be a lot of teams more motivated than the senators would be. And I had, like, I put my list out this morning of like, here's the first snapshot of, I think I had a dozen teams.

You know who's in surprisingly great shape? Is Anaheim. Because they stink. Their goaltending stinks. But they can't really fix. it because they're spending a bunch on it. They're rebuilding. They got a new GM, so, I mean, it's not,

none of that Dorian stuff applies there. Like, they would happily, like, pull the shoot. They have a coach who, I mean, I think Dallas Aiken should be a good NHL coach, but he doesn't seem to be. Keep that all in play. Man, they're in good shape to, and then, I mean,

they'd have pretty talent-packed roster going forward. Yeah, that's true. And then the other one obviously is Columbus with Werenck. Yeah, I wanted to say real quick about the Ducks. Someone posted this on Twitter last night. I don't remember who it was. Did you know the Ducks do not have a regulation win through 16 games?

I did not know that. All five of their wins in overtime of the shootout. So that's the one thing. You've got to say if you're a tanking team, stay out of the overtime. Got to knock that off. San Jose is the same thing. San Jose stinks, but they go to overtime every night.

Knock it off, guys. Bad habit. All those three-point games will add up. You got to be careful on that. But, oh, my God. Like, Anaheim is getting, they've given up 70 goals in 16 games. Like, that's 1980s stuff. Yeah.

That's over four goals a game. That's crazy. You know what, right? Call me crazy, but I think maybe John Gibson isn't good anymore. I think maybe he's not going to rediscover that vesina form from like 2015 or whatever it was that we keep waiting for him to get back to. That does feel like kind of a safe bet, doesn't it? I'm starting to, yeah. Interesting.

Still can't wait till some team trades for him. It's going to happen. Probably going to be the Leafs. Yeah, another position they need to upgrade for sure. So, yeah, I guess the other team to talk about here is, does it feel like Vancouver's, we'll talk about the Canucks again on the other side of a break here, but does it feel like Vancouver is going to do absolutely anything at all? I don't know.

They, as far as... As far as, like, with their roster. Yeah. Thomas Drance wrote a good piece where he is basically saying it should be a everything's on the table rebuild. Totally agree with no untouchables. Peterson, Quinn Hughes, Demco, go down the list. Everybody should be available and you just scrap it and start over. But I everybody seems to believe that there is less than zero appetite from ownership in Vancouver to do that.

Yeah. And I guess that's the other thing to say about the senators is, you know, like, I think, I think we've seen it before that there is more appetite than people would think to accept a tank, especially this year. Yeah. But the ownership thing in Ottawa does kind of hang over it too because, you know, I'd be willing to bet new ownership would love to come in and have Connor Bedard sitting there. or any of the guys at the top of the drop. But there's also the part where current owners might be going to Pierradoria and going, dude, you're costing us money by this team stinking because, you know, we miss the playoffs again.

Like this is, the price is going down. Every time we sit down and negotiate a price for this team and they're like, it says here that you guys are the joke of the league. It's, you know, get us into the playoffs, buddy. And then, I don't know. Jacob Chicker. you're saying, obviously. Chickren's apparently back this week.

So as far as the selling, that's... We're getting closer on that one, too. And that feels like it's got to happen. You would think, but you would assume teams are probably going to want to see him first. No, yeah, right. I mean, that's what I'm saying. But yeah. That's what I'm saying.

Because for a long time, it's been, like Chickren's been mentioned with Ottawa, I'm sure other teams, and you kind of say, well, yeah, but he's out. So if you need help right now, that's not the deal to make. And in a week or two, it could be. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I look at everything that's going on in the league. And it does, and it just, it does kind of feel like, okay, we're going to, we're going to be in a situation where at some point, somebody has to make the first, like, serious trade. And I don't know. Like, I guess you, I guess my point is you could tell me any team would make, like, the big trade. trade, you know, like right now, that feels extremely convincing to me. And it's going to be, I know we always say this, right? I mean, we're always like, oh, the dominoes are going to start falling.

And it never really happens. But again, this year is unique. You've got those two, you know, polls of the league, both pulling where, you know, yeah, if you're in second place in your division and the first place team makes a big trade and gets better, you're sitting there going, well, do we got to get better? to keep up. But also, if you're at the bottom of the league and some team trades away guys

and gets worse, are you sitting there going, you know what, we got to move our guys too because we don't. Yeah. I don't know, man. Chicago, to me, remains very, very interesting because their record is not great. I mean, they've won six out of 15 games,

but they're fake 500, and you just wonder how that's, like, Kyle Davidson's got to be sitting there. Like, come on, guys. What do I got to do here? Let's go. Let's go. Let's get the plan, man.

Like, he's calling Luke Richardson to his office like, hey, dude. Yeah, Jonathan Taves is having a nice season. He's like, I guess that's good for his trade value at the deadline. But, you know, like right now, if he goes to like Patrick Kane and he's like, you know, I got to do it. Kane's like, we're one point out of the playoffs. We're five hundred. We can do this. Come on.

Anyway. Yeah, why don't we take a quick break and then we'll be right back to talk about some other stuff. Right. Back in a minute. It is that time of year again. We just got a bunch of snow dumped on us. I got the lights up. It is officially holiday time, which, of course, means holiday shopping and Black Friday and all of that fun stuff. And right now, Brooke Lennon has you covered and accessories and super cozy because right now all their home essentials are on sale for Black Friday and Cyber Monday. Brooke Lennon is known for sheets that literally win awards and the hits for HomeKeep on coming. Their luck satin sheets continue to be a favorite for their buttery smooth finish and perfect temperature for those who sleep a little chilly. Their weighted blankets are like wrapping up in a hug whenever you need. It's the perfect size to bring comfort to any corner of your space and just the right weight to put your mind and body at ease. And this Black Friday, Cyber Monday is the perfect time to commit to the comfort your craving or gifting.

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That's B-R-O-O-K-L-L-N-E-N dot com, promo code Puck. All right, we're back. And, hey, speaking of teams that are bad or whatever, feels like we're in real shit or get off the pot territory with the old Vancouver Canucks. Yes. I don't know. That was me pausing and muting while I coughed for anybody wondering. Oh, okay.

It was not, I just want to make clear that I didn't have to stop and think about whether the Canucks are in bad shape. No, wait a minute. Let's really think about this. Yeah. It's crazy. Like they won last night, but it, I think some,

I can't remember if it was like Elliot mentioned this or something like that, but they didn't really want to make the decision to fire the coach around the time they had three guys going into the Hall of Fame. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then, uh, that all is over now.

And then they won last night. So maybe, I don't know, that buys them like a little bit of a reprieve, but I don't. You know what I think would help would be like Jim Rutherford, going on another radio show and just shiving his coach and his team and everybody and talking about how much they all stink.

And by the way, they beat the Sabres, who I believe have now lost six in a row. Dude, I really thought this time the Sabres good start was for real. Yeah, I thought Lucy was going to hold the football the whole time for me. Yeah. Yeah, Vancouver's bad. And Jim Rutherford clearly hates. hates Bruce Boudreau more than anybody hates anyone. I guess the only question is,

to link back to what we were saying before the break, like if you're the Canucks, have you already shifted to tank mode? And if you're in tank mode and you think your coach stinks, does that mean you keep the coach and let him screw up the whole season? But I heard, I guess it was Elliot saying, like, he's like, you never want to say that anything is imminent.

but he's like, it feels like something is imminent here. Yeah, and especially because I think I saw a headline either yesterday or maybe even this more. It's crazy. You see so much stupid shit online that, like, just you never know where it came from. You never know where it, like, how real it is or any of that kind of stuff. But anyway, I saw, I think I saw something online where it said something along the lines of, there are people in the Canucks front office who are worried about the long-term effects on younger players or developing players or that kind of thing, if they keep playing like this

with the implication being playing under this coach. Yeah. And that's always it, right? Like anytime you look at a younger team, we've talked about some of them. And you're like, oh, just tank. And it's like, yeah, but at some point, especially if you do it for years, are you screwing up the young guys you already have. Yeah.

You know, like, it's a totally reasonable, uh, thing to wonder about for sure. Now in Vancouver's case. Again, look at the Buffalo Sabres, right?

Like, it's that simple. But the, the counter to that would be like in Vancouver's case, who do you, who are you worried about that wouldn't be part of a tear down necessarily. I mean, right.

You know, Hughes, I guess would, would be a guy you put there. Like even Lice Patterson, it's almost 25. Like it's not, if you're going to do,

this is where I'm, I'm taking your shit. here kind of. I was just going to say the people who were always mad at me for saying like guys are too old, you should move on from them. Now it's Sean's turn. Yeah. I mean, this is definitely not a team that has a bunch of young talent.

And when I say young, I mean young in the sense of going to get much better than they are now. Yeah. And they don't have a strong pipeline either. Like it's fine. I think it's kind of like low. middle of the pack if I if I am remembering right but um it's it's a tough it's a tough sell for me to be like oh you know two years from now the Canucks can be in really good good shape you know um they have currently I'm counting one two three forwards on their team that are 22 or younger only and those

three-for-olds have combined to score two goals on the season. Yeah. EP ringside ranked the Canucks going into this season at 28th in their prospect pool ranking. So no bad, just plain old bad. Okay. Sorry we got your hopes up with middle of the pack there for. Yeah. And Jonathan LeCarramaki has been like famously healthy scratched a bunch of times in his,

in his like Swedish league team. And another guy that people seem to really like is Aidan McDunna. And that's a guy who, I've seen that guy play a bunch because he plays in Boston. He plays for Northeastern. And the skating's going to be a problem with that kid is what everybody kind of agrees. And so, you know, I guess it wouldn't be a surprise. It would be a bit of a surprise for me if that kid actually. He's a really gifted goal scorer and that kind of thing.

But I think that skating is going to hold him back at the next level. And so, like, if those are your two big prospects right now, there's a much bigger problem going on, you know? Yep. So, yeah, again, it kind of gets to, I can honestly see two lanes that you could take here. The number one is you say, we've got Patterson, we've got Hughes, we've got Demko, who I think is 27, which is not young, but for a goaltender, you know, the aging curve isn't. It's fine, you know, it's, it's, the guy can easily be your goal for the next five years. You say, we've got one guy at each position to build around.

So, yeah, you know, maybe, maybe you move Bull Horvatt, you know, since you haven't extended him. You know, Brock Bess are still only 25. You know, I don't know if you can move J.T. Miller after you just signed him, you know, maybe you just have to eat that for a little while. Echman Larson's tough. But, you know, there's guys that you move the guys around that. See if you can find someone who wants Tyler Myers, all of that. But you keep the young core in place and you try to build around that, which means it's not really a full-scale rebuild.

It's a reload. And then the other one is you say, no, this team stinks. they have been bad with this core. You trade those guys because, you know, they have value. The list I just gave of guys not to trade other than the horridor. Like, who's left that you're going to get value for? No one's given you a first round pick for Luke Shen. Like, it's, you've got to, you, I just described a rebuild that would get you a bunch of fourth round draft picks.

And you've got to be more aggressive than that. So you move the guys who have high value and you start over. And, you know, I can see both arguments. I'm just wondering, like, Jim Rutherford in his 70s, did he come to Vancouver to oversee a patient rebuild? And would the owner even let him do that, I guess is much more than where we got to start. Yeah, and like Drans has reported a couple of times now. There are people in that front office who are like, we need a rebuild. And you wonder how much their voices are being heard or whatever, you know?

But, um, and like I get why Jim Benning's getting to a point in the last few years couldn't sell that to ownership because it's hard. As a GM, if you've been there for five years to go to your owner and go, we stink, it's all screwed up. Uh, we got to start over. And you're effectively saying please fire. Yeah. I mean, the owner is going to be sitting there going, why would I let you be the one to start over? Now they've got new, you know, a new front office in place. So in theory, that makes it.

it easier to sell, but is that front office in place because the owner wanted people who would tell him we're going to be okay, and now they have to keep that up. I don't know. We don't know what that dynamic is, but I don't. I feel like we can guess, right? Yeah. The other thing that's worth mentioning is there are different fan bases that are at different stages of acceptance, and I feel like Vancouver right now, the blow this team sky high. You're a lot of whatever. Yeah. I mean, I feel like if you went, if you took a typical Canucks fan and you're like, what do you want to do with this team? They'd be like blow it up forever, just, you know, absolutely take it apart. And then if you specifically went to guys and went like, so you're saying Trade Peterson, they'd be like, I don't know.

You're saying trade Quinn Hughes? I don't know about that and maybe wind up back where you started. But I don't feel like there's a lot of love for this iteration of the Canucks, let's just say. and I think that's well earned, if we're being honest. You know, like, you can't say they haven't put in the work. But I guess my, I guess my point is in all this, like, that it, that it all circles back to the number of people who got fooled. The number of people like in this league, fan bases, whatever, who got fooled by a fake playoff, like the fagest playoff of all time. Yeah.

You know, like the Canucks certainly aren't the only one. It is, oh, it's tough, though. I, and I got to say this as someone who, like, I've been fooled by this team, because I keep looking at it and maybe not so much now, but like a couple years ago, you looked at Pedersen and said, like, this is a foundation of franchise play. I thought Patterson was going to be, like, one of the, I think at some point I said, like, I think he has the, the potential to be the best player in Canada. Yeah. And then McDavid went insane the next full two seasons, and Petterson, like, took a big step. that back for one of them and kind of never got back. Quinn Hughes a couple years ago, it was, it was Hughes and McCar, was like the Coke

and Pepsi debate in their Calder year. Demko, as of last year, would look like one of the great, you know, again, young-ish. That was why I thought they would be playoff competitive. Like, I said it at the time, but like, you know, they got to where they were last year with elite goaltending. And I figured, you know, a full season of Bruce Bood. Drow plus elite goaltending, or close to it, would equal playoff competitive, at least. Especially in that division where I think there's a good amount of reason to be like, oh,

you know, there are spots open for sure. You know. And then, yeah, here we are. Was it five years ago, Brock Besser comes in, scores 30 goals as a rookie? And, you know, this is what makes it so tough because, you know, you're. You're looking at a guy like that. And you're going, well, 30 goals is a rookie. Okay, so we pencil him for what?

40 within a couple of years? Maybe he's 50 someday. And it's always like, yeah, but what if he's just, what if he never reaches that level again, which he hasn't? Not that he's bad, but he hasn't got there. I don't know, man. That's a fascinating. And that J.P. Miller contract looks so bad now. It looks awful from, like, so often we look at contracts.

and we say like, okay, yes, you want to keep the player, of course, but the number was wrong or the years, it was too many years or the structure or whatever. Like that one, it's just like the decision to even do the contract feels disastrous now. Yep. When they could be sitting here with no extension in place and everyone's talking. And, you know, you've got a great trade trip now as the season goes off the rails. Yeah. man GMs have got a front office's ownership whoever's making the call they've they've got to develop the nerve to let guys go into a season

I can't remember did Miller play the did he play the I'm not going to negotiate during the season card I don't that I'm not going to remember that but I I just you know again like they bought him at the absolute highest cost they could have they they were like oh he's coming off a 99 point season we better give him all the money like you know completely not completely out of the blue he's been a good player for a long time but out of the blue enough where it's like do you think this is like something he can replicate like i don't know i don't understand the thought process yeah but it seems like they did think that yes they are a very interesting team to me to watch and i'm glad that i am saying that not as a fan, but as a neutral observer. Yeah. Yikes.

Yeah, I look, again, like, you know, if there was a year to convince your owner who doesn't want to tank, that tanking is the right thing to do, this is it. Because it's, as much as we say, this is the Connor Bedard draft. This is a draft where, like, especially up front, like, the level of talent in this draft is ridiculous. Yeah. Top, top, like, eight picks, top ten picks. Like, these are guys who are going to be difference makers for you.

And again, I just circle back to, you know, if I'm the Canucks front office and the owner calls me and says, you have permission to tank, but don't trade Pedersen Hughes, Demco, Besser. Like, what cards do I have? I mean, I could trade Horvatt. I think you would have to trade Horvette at this point. My only other card realistically that I can play, assuming that you can't trade. Miller is bad coaching. And if I clearly Rutherford already thinks he has bad coaching, does that in a weird way,

like is Bruce Boudreau bad enough to be safe all year because he's the key to a short-term tank? I don't think so. I think the second they lose two games in a row, again, that's it. The, you know, the horse, again, the horse is out of the barn on this season. It's dunzo for them. even like I guess in theory they could do what they did last year and play at like a hundred and something point pace and that's what's fucking crazy about keeping Boudreau to me is we spent a good chunk of last year going it seems like they're making this decision a little late and they play at a pace just good enough where they all they what did they play at like a hundred and eight point pace or something and you're like oh if they had done this like a week earlier We're not having this conversation.

But they didn't do that instead. They did not. Oops, a classic whoopsie-dazy from the Vancouver Canucks, who feels like they're about to make another classic whoopsie-dazy with whatever they decide to do. Oh, well, that's life, I guess. One other thing I wanted to talk about here is, speaking of teams that are maybe worse than everybody thought they would be.

The Penguins and the Capitals. Yeah. They're not Columbus bad, but they're both below 500 at this point. And what do you do if you're those teams? Like, yeah, injuries are a problem in Washington, obviously. But injuries aren't the problem in Pittsburgh at all. I don't think they have anybody hurt right now. Yeah.

Certainly anybody that you would move, that would be like, oh, damn, Canvas that guy. Yeah. No Nick Baxterms on that list. Yeah, I'm looking at their, the Penguins page. Their injury list is pure Harvey Joseph. So, yeah, that's not. So that's the only guy is. P.O. Joseph?

Yeah. That's been out. So, man, I feel like the penguins are a tougher call because they flat out, re-uped on this entire core in the off-season. Like, they had the chance. And obviously, you know, I say they had the chance to move on. They wouldn't, if Latang and or Melk can leave as free agents, you're not getting anything in exchange. But this isn't. You're getting the cap space.

old team. Man, this is an old team. They have one guy in their top 10 scoring who's 27 or under, and that's Denton Hinen, who is 10th. The age of their top 10 scores, 35, 36, 31, 28, 29, 30, 38, 35. God, Jake Gensel's already 28, huh? And then Jeff Petrie's next. Like, this is a, man, there's a lot of 30-something-year-old guys on this team.

And this, again, this is a team. Bad farm system. where you guys have them, but I can tell you in two seconds. But yeah, not high at all. I think probably going to be pretty close to last. And I mean, they've been going for it for years. 27th, yeah.

You know, I'm not, you trade a lot of picks. They're a team that should be last. This isn't like the Canucks where it's like, oh, we finished like sixth from the bottom of the league, like 10 years in a row. The Penguins have been consistently good for like a decade. You have. decade plus, whatever.

You have one slash two generational franchise players. You've won three cops. You want to ring as many drops out of that as you can. You keep going for it, for sure. Absolutely. And now that it's caught up with you, I'm not sure Pittsburgh can do anything other than, save if this is the year we've got to pay the Piper.

Go ahead. And then the league will rig the lottery. Yeah, they get Connor Bredard. And everybody will be totally fine with that. That'll be. Nobody would freak out about that at all. A very pleasant day to be a hockey fan. Everyone will be cool.

Washington's a bit tougher because at least there, you can point to Baxter and say, like, we don't, you know, that's... Well, it's not just Baxter, Wilson. Yeah. I think John Carlson missed some time earlier this year. Connor Brown, like, I think they said he might be done for the season. Maybe I'm getting that wrong. But T.J. Oshy's hurt right now.

Like, basically all their players who are all the big forwards who aren't Ovet, in Kuznetsov, Stromen, Manta, not healthy at all. And Manta hasn't even been that good this year. So. I said it before. I got yelled at for saying it, but just arranging the entire organization

to get Alex Oveccian the goal record, that should be the goal here. But I mean, with Washington, can't we at least say that, like, I mean, they've been bad, but that we, with all the injuries, is that, you know, maybe we don't know if this is a bad team or if this is, you know, Darcy Camper's been fine.

They wouldn't address that. They just don't have anyone, like, any skaters to, you could make the case that, like, their second, third, and fourth most important skaters are all out right now. Sure. Versus Pittsburgh where, again, like, it's just to double back on Pittsburgh, and this is kind of, you know, because with Washington, there's been some Peter Labielette talk. Like when I was with Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh and I was saying, like, what can you do? Is it coaching change?

Something you look at there? Yeah. I mean, we talked about that last week. It feels like that's the only card, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know what, and I don't know what it accomplishes. You know, like, again. Makes you worse, probably. And it makes Mike Sullivan immediately the number one coach probably on the market,

maybe other than very trots. But like, do we feel like, with a coaching change and they're obviously not going to get Barry Trots. Do we feel like with a coaching change the capitals are going to go on a big run and become playoff competitive again?

Again, they're below 500. I mean, Lavellet is one of those guys where he's a very good coach who seems to top out after about four years. He seems to have a shelf life. So maybe. I mean, yeah, I think, you know, they are, what,

three points out of a playoff spot right now. So, I mean, you know, go on a run. They don't have to go on that much of a run. Now, games play and everything, the situation is worse than it sounds. Yes. But I don't think they're, yeah, put it this way. I think if you believe that you can upgrade the coaching, then, yes, I think if you make a move now, you have time to get back in this race and, you know, as guys get back healthy as well to expect to get better.

that might be what they have to end up doing there. Yeah. Again, it just feels a little far-fetched for me. Yeah. You know, like, they weren't, they were good last year, but, like, oh, man, look out for the capitals. They got to 100, they got to 100 points. Can't say they didn't. But, yeah, it's just a little bit of a tough sell for me.

Like, oh, the capitals are going to be able to figure this out. Because, you know, some of these guys are going to come back from injury soon. Others, you know, like Nick Baxter, like, who knows? Yeah, Baxter, we don't even know if he's going to play this year. Yeah. So that's fair. And again, like, we keep saying it. This is the year to be bad in the NHL.

Mm-hmm. You know, and well, yeah, I mean, because, yeah, you're only going to get a, whatever, 8% chance of winning the draft lottery or whatever. That's fine. because as long as you end up in the top even five, you're going to get a very, very good player who maybe can even help you like next year. I don't know.

It's just... It's tough. But it's fascinating because, I mean, Pittsburgh, Washington, state the obvious. Those are two playoff teams last year. In that group of 100-point teams where we were like, oh, man, like, who's going to drop out? Well, right now it looks like both of those teams

are going to drop out and leave the door open in the metro. Washington all is first. felt like the candidate for me. Yeah. But I think I would have aired on the side of like, yeah, but they'll still probably make it. But yeah. Anyway, Sean, hey, now that we've talked about all these bad teams, do you want to talk about you have an article coming up later?

This was the piece that you already mentioned today with the introduction of the tank index. I've done this a few years over the years where I take a little. look at, okay, which team is in the best, of the bad teams, who's in the best position to tank, which is to say who's in the best position to strategically decide to get worse and be worse for the rest of the year. And usually I do it in the second half of the season, but I figured this year because the top of the draft is so loaded and because the value of finishing dead last with those three franchise guys and guaranteed a three top three pick is so high, I'm going to kind of do it a few times over the year. So I did my first

one. And it's, it's, it's interesting. It's, it's, because at the beginning of the year, we all said, okay, Chicago and Arizona clearly are just openly tanking. And both of those teams have been okay, not great, but okay. And I, to me, it was a bit of a surprise. I had Anaheim ranked very high. And then Columbus is the other obvious one. Off to a terrible start. Wouldn't necessarily put them on the list at the beginning of the year because they just gone and got Goddreau and all of that. The goal-tending stinks even before they have the injuries problems. But that is a team where, to me, like, one of the things, you know, tanking is, it's tough to do psychologically. And you either have to be like Chicago or Arizona and just bite the bullet and say, we don't care.

We'll be open about it. Or sometimes it's tough to make that switch. You need something to point to and say, well, this is the moment that we had no choice. Zach Werensky going out potentially for the season is one of those moments, I think, for Columbus, where they could just say to their fans, hey, we lost our, you know, we lost our, not best player, but absolute key player, captain, all of that. Best defenseman by far. Oh, by mile. So, yeah, I think Columbus is in very good shape to do it.

And you know what? That's a team. Like, who's been the best player in Columbus, franchise history, like probably still Rick Nash to this day. They need a superstar. Rick Nash was a superstar in the league for a few years, but I mean, he didn't. So, yeah, I think those are the teams that are interesting. I didn't have Ottawa ranked all that high.

Montreal is another one that's bad because, like, they have been legitimately okay this year. Yep. Like, not even fake 500. They're, so. Yep. but yeah, I don't know. I mean, I had Columbus, Anaheim top two, I think I had Arizona next. Like, is there anyone that you look at it and go, this is the team that can really stink it up more than they are now and make them move?

If we're leaving aside, of course, the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are terrible. Worst 100-point pace team in history. I think you pretty much nailed it. The savers aren't going to be bad and aren't going to be able to get bad enough. As much as I don't trust their goaltending at all. And obviously, again, they're on a six-game losing. I mean, I look at that.

I have goaltending as a separate category in this because it's so important to me. Buffalo has two goalies. One of them's bad and one of them's 41. So I don't. And not good. Yeah. Like I think I said in the piece that, yeah, but Craig Anderson has been good this year, which is why they got up to the good start.

Broadly speaking, the last few years, you would say Craig Anderson correct. And he's been good so far. So I think the way I phrased it in the piece was I don't think Kevin Adams, like, I don't think Kevin Adams, given how bad this team has been for so long

and how they've shown some signs of life, I don't think he wants to yank the steering wheel into the last place lane again. But if the vehicle is drifting in that direction, I think he goes kind of hands off. Will's, yeah. 100%. Yeah. No, I agree with that. I guess I could see

Arizona kind of ending up there. Their underlying numbers are horrendous. Yeah. And, you know, they're really just getting bailed out by shooting percentage and save percentage right now. Right.

But with that... Save percentage by their goaltenders who I definitely know and definitely would not... Carole Maltender. No, like, I, look, Carol of Melka was like fine-ish last year, given what he was playing in front of or behind, I mean, you know? So, I don't know, like, that's a goalie. I think, like, if he was on a better team, I think we'd, and, you know, this is a classic fallacy, I guess, too, of like, you know, if he was on a better team, he'd actually be, like, the best goalie in the world or whatever. Obviously, I don't think that.

but like, you know, you hear it, you hear that just often enough that it's like, okay, let's not get into all that, right? But anyway, yeah, I actually, I actually do kind of like Harold Melk. I just, you know. The thing with Arizona is, is other than Jacob Chirchran, who again hasn't played this year, like, who are they going to trade that's going to make them worse? Like, I don't think you're trading Clayton Keller, but maybe. Yeah, but. That would be like the one big name guy. Whereas, you know who is interesting is from a tank perspective?

Because I don't think they're there yet. But if St. Louis were to decide, you know what? This isn't our year. Let's step from the bottom. They've got Teresenko and Ryan O'Reilly on expiring contracts. Both of whom, first of all, you could get some solid assets back. But you trade both those guys. You made your team a lot worse.

for sure. However, they are like winning a lot again now. They are, they have won three in a row. So yeah, and beating good teams to do it too. Like they, they beat Colorado the other.

I watched that game. It was awesome. It was a really good game. Yeah, their last, their last two wins were against Vegas and Colorado on the road. That's pretty impressive.

Yeah. So as much as, as much as, yeah, like if they, if they wanted to hollow out this team, they could, I think, do it. pretty quickly and easily.

But you do kind of wonder, like, how bad could they realistically get with, you know, I don't think we're looking at Jordan Kairu and Robert Thomas and going, oh, yeah, they're going to stink all year. Not necessarily. Like, they've won three in a row, but they're one point out of dead last in the league. Oh, I understand. It gets to the point of in this league, man, it's hard to gain ground because you just, this stupid loser point.

Well, I think conversely, it would be difficult for them to lose additional ground. Unless they trade those two key guys. No, I'm saying even if they do trade those guys. Yeah. I think they have just enough talent that you would be like, oh, you know, what are we really pursuing here? Fair enough. Eighth bottom or whatever, like feels maybe the most realistic for them. I don't know.

Anyway, I guess the other thing we should very quickly touch on before. we get to a quick quiz for Sean here, is the Boston Bruins have announced that they are launching an internal investigation into what happened with the whole Mitchell Miller thing. And a lot of people posted the fucking hot dog man. We're all trying, yeah. But the thing that immediately occurred to me in looking at this is, oh, they're using this as like a pretext to fire someone or force a resignation or

something like that. Yeah. That's what it seems like to me because, okay, they're going to make the results public. But like this, this comes, you know, a week, they announced this a week after Cam Neely

said, I'm going to take a week and see if I need to dole out any, like, additional discipline to, you know, people who made this decision. This is probably the right thing to do because there are, like, you know, no one's No one's going to trust Cam Neely to go out and figure this out on his own.

And if he comes back and says, yeah, you know. I'm actually very innocent. Yeah. Then so, but it's, I mean, and again, like this would be, this dynamic, I think, would be playing out very differently if this wasn't the first place overall team in the NHL right now. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Now, not that that protects me. I mean, the Panthers were 7 and 0 when Joel Quenville went last year.

So it doesn't protect you entirely, but it'll be interesting to see what they find. Yeah, like I say, I think, I said it last week. Like, I think at some point does not the buck stop with the general manager who is the guy who ultimately signs off on every personnel decision? Like, you would think. The idea that some other person made this decision. You would think, except, again, like the way that's the way that's, Sweeney, like at that, I know, media availability, I guess,

not a press conference, but where he kind of kept saying, like, look, I don't know that this is the right deal. Right. You know, if he got overruled, then, but. Well, then at that point, it's just Cam Neely's fault. Yeah.

Because who's going to overrule him otherwise? You're right. Like, to fire the, like, the scout who suggested the idea would be garg. Yeah, I said it last week. Scouts job is to be like, oh, I think this player can play. Like, there shouldn't have been any, because sometimes the scouts like will go, oh, I think this player can play, but he's a shithead. So maybe don't, you know.

I don't think there's any, there's any way you can look at this and say, oh, I didn't think this player was a shithead. Really? You didn't? Huh. Okay. Yep. So that's kind of where I'm at with this investigation.

And they're continuing, meanwhile, to try to figure out how to get out of the contract and all of that stuff. Yeah. Like I say, I think this is just like they need a kind of like legal pretext to make this official. And once they have it, they're going to make it official about somebody's going to lose their job about over this. Yeah. And then I guess the other thing is the GM meetings and we don't really have news to talk about there because they... Right. Which is why I didn't even write it down.

Yeah. The GMs got together and decided everything's great. The league's hitting on all cylinders and the, there were a couple of discussions about tweaking some rules. The one that made me laugh was the, apparently one of the GMs made a pitch that they should remove the minor penalty for being wrong on a challenge, which I love the idea that a month into this season, somebody was like, we need more challenges.

We've got to fix the review system. It's too good. Yeah. The problem with the review system is there's not enough reviews and coaches aren't challenging. We need to incentivize coaches to look into this. Yeah. And so luckily that got shot down, apparently. But there's some talk about being able to review.

Like we had another one of those high sticks last night where it wasn't a high stick, but they can't review it. But they could have reviewed it if it was a double minor, but because it was in my own. I mean, that's probably not. great, but those situations don't come up all that much. That was pretty much it. It doesn't sound like there's a lot of big changes coming. No, everything, everything's great.

We've got it all figured out. We're the National Hockey League. Everybody thinks we're doing a good job. That's it. All right. The quick quiz this week is in honor of John Tavares scoring his 400th career goal. Somebody tweeted out, again, don't remember who. But somebody tweeted out he's the 13th active player to have 300 career goals, which felt a little high to me, honestly.

I was like, oh, it feels like a lot, I guess. So the question is, how many of the other 13 or other 12 can you name? Okay. So, Crosby and Novetschkin, obviously. You got it. That's two. The other obvious one, because he just did it, is Kessel. That's right.

Now, from there. There's another guy who, I believe, in the first game of this season, scored his 400th goal. Well, no, he's up to 408, I should say. scored his 400th goal. I think it happened earlier this season. It might have been very end of last season, but it was recent. All right, I'm going to go down. Just old guys who score a lot of goals, Malkin.

Malkin is on there. That's not, he's at 451, so he's well past. Okay. Is Jeff Carter on the list? Jeff Carter is on the list. He's at 420. Okay. And I'm not going to do any jokes about that.

Nope. Oh, I was going to say Taves. Taves don't think, but Kane would be there, right? Patrick Cain is there. Taves is not. Okay. And then the, oh, right. So I was, like, has Brad Marchand got there?

No. Bergeron. Bergeron is the guy who is at 408 now. Okay. I think an old guy's, Pavelsky? Pavelsky's at 429. Okay.

There are, I think, three that you haven't gotten. Is, I guess we're back to Eric Stahl being an active player. He is, yeah, he's over 400, yes. Okay. Yep. Copatar? No. I'll look up Copatar real quick, but you name another guy, but he is not in 400. I'm starting to do that, like, going through.

Copartar's a 368. Okay. Feels like it's going to be a tough lift for him to get to. Not this year, but he'll get there. Oh, Stamco. Stephen Stamcoast, 488, recently reached 500 career assists and had a funny quote about, people say I'm a goal scorer, but I got to the assist first. so what do they know?

Very nice. Okay. Yeah, that's funny. I was going through like old guys, but so Stamco's is, for it, is there anyone else? Like other than Crosby old fetchkin. One other guy is maybe a little obvious, maybe. But how many more guys do I need?

You're never going to get. The second or the last, there's two guys left. Okay. One is it 407. One is at 413. And these are both like real active guys, not just like haven't retired yet. One of them I was like, oh, I guess he is still playing. I'll put it that way for you.

Got to be old guy, like old guys who don't score that much. They're both, I believe both 03 draft. Okay. Oh, um, Corey Perry probably. is 407. Now the guy at 413, I would be absolutely shocked if you pulled this.

I'm going through my mind. 2003. So most of those guys are gone. It's not Brent Burns, right? Like he's not to... He probably, he might be around 200, though, Brent Burns.

Yeah. Obviously, that's... Brent Burns has scored 230 career goals. Yeah. Oh, boy. I feel like there's another guy because like gets laugh obviously was in that draft.

And again, like, I had to look up that he was still active, but he's actually having like a half decent season for himself at age 38. Is it Zach Parisi? It is. 413. See, there's no way I would have got that without the 2003 hint. And then I almost said, when you said, like, I had to look up that he was still active and he's old, I was going to make a joke like, it's got to be an islander.

And then I was like, wait a second. Hey, I know a guy on the islanders. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Perise, yes. I would have never, yeah. Honestly, again, if you had, if with no clues, I would have been sitting here for a long time, and I probably would have cycled past the Islanders in my hand a few times

without even thinking that Zach Perise was there. I just, wow. So there you go. Who's the next guy, like the next guy to get there? Is there anyone at like 390 or? Let me pull that up. I did not write that down, but that is something I can easily look at. The next closest guy is Anse Copatar at 368.

So he's going to score 32 more goals to get there. Jonathan Taves right behind him at 364. Brad Marshand at 356. Nobody else over 350. Okay. And I would say the only guy who has like a decent shot of getting to 350 right now for sure is Jamie Bennett at 335. Beyond him is Patchy are ready.

and after that is Tyler Sagan. Padgeretti is 323, so he needed another 37 goals. And Tyler Sagan only has 308. Okay. And most of the other guys who are like over 300 are old. So like Jeff Skinner, Claude, Claude Jure, etc. I don't know why.

Although, hearing Logan Couture accurately. Okay. So that's maybe, yeah. Here, and McDavid might get there this year the way he's going. Yeah, no shit. Hearing Logan Couture accurately described as old. He's old. Just hit me in a, I don't disagree, but, oof.

Joe Bovellski was the guy who, for a very long time, it was like, oh, he's not that old. And then you would look and be like, oh, he's like 31. That sounds crazy. Can that possibly be right? And then it was always right. But yeah, other than that, I don't know how much more show there is to, There's nothing really to talk about, like I said. Yep.

No, I think... Slow News Week. Slow-ish, yeah. For sure. Which is fine. They can't all be one. They don't all have to be two hours. Go out and you've got an extra half hour to do something productive with your life.

By which I mean... So pissed. Listen to another podcast. That's right, yeah. Another hockey podcast where they're like, here's all the stuff that happened since they stopped recording Puck Soup. Exactly. Guys.

Yeah, yeah, that's that, that, that, that, that, that podcast is called 320 thoughts, and it's seven hours long. Yeah, that's right. All right. Thanks so much, everybody. Sean, why don't you hit them with the plugs? You know, I, go check out that tank index that I had today, and I've got later this week, hopefully, a new edition of Rules Court, where you approach myself, Sean Gentile and Ian Mendez with your new rules. rules ideas and we vote on them and decide whether they will be enacted and become official NHL rules. Because unlike the NHL GMs, we are open to discussing some stuff. And I got to say,

there's, uh, there's some weird stuff. And you guys came up with some, some, uh, plausible ideas and some somewhat less so, but, uh, you're creative. That's how it always goes, right? Um, and then obviously for me, EPRinkside, uh, EPRinkside, uh, E.Ringside. use the code I love EP get three months added on to the end of your annual subscription, a deal that simply can't be beat. And

I don't know, I've been writing a bunch for EP lately, so if you need the power feelings, if you need take down, if you need what we learned, it's all there. You know what I write by now, right? It's no mystery. And then

Patreon, patreon.com slash puck soup, and hey, I don't know, there's a whole bunch of stuff on there. We're trying to really cram in a bunch of bonus episodes before Thanksgiving, U.S. Thanksgiving. I think I'm legally required to say at this point. That's right. And, yeah, so we got, I think, two more bonus episodes, minimum coming later this week. So check it all out if you're interested in all that stuff.

Patreon.com slash Puck Soup. and people will, I hope, like that. Okay. Yeah, that's it. So thanks everybody for listening, and we'll see you next week, and hopefully something actually happens. Until next time, bye-bye.

Bye-bye. Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute, but we also cover movies, TV shows, it's and tunes. It's your weekly bowl of Hagi and Nance, about to