Puck Soup - Two Reverse Sweeps

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Sean and Ryan talk about the Conference Finals being over, the Leafs drama, and more.

Sticks and hits and goals and saves and slapshots and goons. We've got sportly commentary to what if you commute. But we also cover movies, TV shows, it's in tunes. It's your weekly bowl of hockey and nonsense. I'm Ryan Lambert from Elite Prospects. I'm Sean McIndoo from The Athletic. And, boy, it feels like the conference finals are over. Yeah, it kind of does.

It does. Remember in the first round we were talking about how great the first round had been? Second round was good too. Yes. Maybe not as good. Not as good. The first round was crazy. But second round, you were like, oh, okay, let's go, you know?

And this sucks. This is, now look, a bunch of the, so I think the thing that is that you're like, okay. Both the, like, I was talking to someone and they were like, oh, sweep tonight? referring to Carolina. And I was like, yeah, it's over, obviously. And, you know, it's probably not over. You can not look particularly great for three games and then win a game or two. It's the NHL, you know.

But I do, I do overall feel like the both series are more over than, or feel more over at least, than the actual play on the ice. I don't know how you feel about that. Yeah, just give, I mean, neither series has felt like a series that deserves to be three nothing. And we've seen overtime and we've seen close games and that kind of thing. But yeah, this being the NHL, doesn't it feel like one and only one of these series is going to somehow get stretched to like six games just so that we have that deadly week of one series being done? and then the other one just kind of going through the motions.

Yeah, Vegas sitting around checking their watch. Yep. What are we going here? And then you would, of course, have the, like, the NHL's necessary, like, eight days off in between the end of the Carolina, Florida series, and the start of the cup final. But, yeah. No, it's a situation where, like you say,

there have been a bunch of overtime games, and that's always one puck, you know. And at least in the Carolina series, it felt like Carolina deserved to win at least one of those two overtime games, if not both of them. Both these series kind of really test your ability to view the NHO playoffs as one where,

hey, man, the best team finds a way. The best team is the one that, you know, you're watching these, overtime games and these closed games and there's that part of you that's like, are we just building our stories around

a bounce here or an inch there? But I know some people feel very strongly that no man, like those bounces and those inches, those are the winners get them, the losers don't and the playoffs reveals that for us.

Maybe. That's definitely a more entertaining, interesting way to view it. So let's go with that. Yeah, let's just, I guess that is the thing, though, right? Is Carolina can't score? I think they have three goals in like, what? I'm trying to do the math. They've got four goals in three games, one of which.

Yeah, yes. Something like that. That's a problem. It is. That's not. not good. And like, obviously, Sergey Bobrovsky having the run of his life right now. But I got to tell you, I think Caroline's making it

real easy on him, too, you know? And this is this is, um, kind of what we were worried about in the first round where it's like, oh, they're playing an elite goalie. You know, uh, they're, they're going to, uh, they're going to maybe hit a wall here because their, their best offensive players, or, you know, one of their best offensive players is injured. No offense to Sebastian Aho, I guess. And you were just, at least I was just kind of looking at the first round going,

and Sorokin's going to gole them. Didn't happen to Sorokin, obviously didn't happen to whoever New Jersey was putting out there on any given night. Yeah. And Salinas Jersey goalie. Yeah. And Sergey Verrovsky's like, no, I'm going to make these guys feel like I'm Dominic Hachach out there. Like primary. Forget it.

And there's been some interesting stuff. I don't know if you've seen a few of the tweets that have gone around about like Carolina's offense and their system and how we're always talking about how great they are possession and chances and expected goals and everything. And yet they don't ever seem to score up to it. And that maybe that's revealing more of a flaw in how those stats come to be than how. how the team plays well there's that and there's also just like

they don't they don't really have the finishing talent that a lot of teams that generate their kind of numbers have right like and this is a problem

going back to uh well who's the old coach Bill Peters right okay you know like they always had whoa look at their XGs look at their XGs and then you'd like

be like, okay, but what about their AGs, their actual goals? Well, you know, let's not, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Like, it happened. Let's not get into the crazy advanced stats of actual goals. But yeah, you're right. In the regular season this year, at five on five, more expected goals generated than any team in the league, 3.25. That's a lot. actual goals

15th in the league 2.66 an hour so like I think there's a lot of a lot to say about that and that's obviously at 5 on 5 they probably make up a little bit of the difference on the power play but maybe not that much if I'm

if we're being honest but yeah I I think at some point that's that's an issue of finishing talent like Sebastian Ajo is very good andres Svetchenkov is very good. But they just don't have a

max patchy're ready type, let's say, who's going to be able to fill the net for them in a way that they need. They are missing Svechnikov, they're missing Patcher-Ready. Yeah. Svecchnikov, that injury happened

middle of March. Right. I was going to say, I don't hold, like, I don't go, oh, boy, if only, like, Patcher-Ready played, what, four games for them? That, like, isn't a thing for me, you know? Yeah, I mean, well, they went and got them in the summer. Yeah. Part of their aggressive, very smart summer that they had, and it just didn't work.

He came back, he got hurt right away, the Achilles. I mean... He looked great in those, like, four games, though, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I did. But... But, so, I mean, my point, though, is that happened in January. Yeah.

So as tough a break as that is, I guess what I come back to is the trade deadline. Sure. One of the things people pointed out heading into this series was you had this massive trade deadline war in the east, right? It was everybody was loading up. And the only two teams that didn't really get in on it were the Panthers and the hurricanes. Now you look at it and you're kind of like, man, this hurricane's team feels like they are one goal away. from cracking this series and they can't get the goal. Was it the right decision to essentially sit out the deadline?

I mean, they got Shane Ghost Bear and pull Yardby, but not. Yeah, they made low risk, low cost bets. Just kind of like, am I wrong in remembering that that's like just, they were a little more up against the cap than I think they were? I mean, everybody was up against the cap. That's certainly true. And it's, you know, and again, like, they, they knew they didn't have Patcheretti at that point. Like, by the time the deadline comes around, Patcheretti is gone.

And I think if you look at the Panthers, not doing anything at the deadline, even though in theory they were in a much tougher playoff battle, but then you look at it and you go, like, this team doesn't have any first round picks coming up. So, you know, it was difficult for them to do very much. Carolina's got all their picks. And they just, well, I'm going to say they chose not to get it. We don't, you never know what's happening behind the scenes. They could have been right there on a deal on deadline day and it falls through. We'd ever hear about it. Yeah.

But it does feel a little bit tough that you look at it now and, you know, they didn't know Svetchenikov is going to get hurt. That's huge. That's, yeah. I mean, your first or second best offensive player gets hurt. Yep. It's going to, it's going to change things. But you do look back a little bit

and go, man, could they have found that one extra goal that could tilt this series? Here's the thing. I'm looking at their trade history here. In making those two trades we mentioned for Gostis-Payer and Polly Arby, they didn't send a single dollar out, they took on seven and a half million.

So like, you can say they didn't, uh, they didn't have a big trade deadline or whatever, but they did in terms of, they took on seven and a half million dollars in cap hits. Yeah. Obviously, it's less than that in terms of like what they, what it actually cost them against the cap because of like, you know, it's late in the season and all that. But they didn't send a single dollar out. I mean, I, I, I wrote a thing today about what we can learn from the different teams.

And the thing with the Hurricanes is they actually did weaponize cap space over the last 12 months, which is something that every team that has cap space talks about, and then half the time you just realize that, oh, they're just cheap and they're never going to do it. Sure. Carolina actually did it. They went out and got Brett Burns for almost nothing.

Patcher ready for nothing. It just, I don't know, man. It's got to be so frustrating to be. a Hurricanes fan right now and just see because I mean they're and to some extent you know not to bring everything back to the Leaves but just as a Leaves fan who just

watched them lose to the Panthers it feels kind of similar where you're like how are we down three nothing to these guys? We're right there with them and I mean just I guess you just got to get full credit to the Panthers like they are playing great's the cliche they're playing great and they are

finding away every have they have they won every overtime game? Was there an overtime game earlier in the Boston series? I believe they lost an overtime game to Boston and that's it. Okay. But since then, they're on like a not quite 93 Habs like OT streak. I also think they're like, I think eight and two on the road or something like that in the playoffs, which is crazy. Nobody's, yeah, no, they are they are undefeated in overtime. They're six and oh in overtimes. Okay. So, so they have played, yeah, six overtimes, one of which went four periods and won them all.

So that is, again, you know, like you could look at that and be like, dude, overtime's a coin flip. We're singing the praises of this team that just had it come up head six times. Or you could go, no, screw that. They're finding a, you know, Matthew Kachuk. This guy is a winner. Well, that's what I was going to say. Right.

Are the ones who come through and he's done it. Like the thing about New Jersey weaponized or Carolina weaponized their cap space. you know, that's certainly true. They, they did, but they did it in a way that they got some pretty good players on the wrong side of the aging curve, right? Like Brent Burns has had a very nice season, you know, but I haven't really looked into it. It's just occurring to me that this would be interesting to look at. I wonder how much their offense changed to the way San Jose had it, where it was like, well, when Brent Burns is on the ice,

Brent Burns shoots the puck. And then, like, you think about, well, look how that worked out for San Jose the last several years, you know? And also, like, if you have an impact defenseman, and again, I think Burns had a very nice season for himself, if you look at the impact that a very good defenseman has, it's much smaller than the impact that a MVP caliber forward has. And Kachua had an MVP caliber season last year.

I think we said it last week. He's probably going to end up third in the MVP voting this year. So, you know, like that, yeah, Florida gave up a lot more than, than Carolina did to get Kachuk. But like, that's why you get Kachuk because he's fucking awesome, you know? He's just so good. And, like, having game-breaking players, you want to talk about the Maple Leafs, you know, having game-breaking players matters. And the Leafs on paper do. Okay, fair enough.

We'll talk about that. I feel like a little bit later. But, you know, like, this is why you go out and get Star Talent. This is why so many GMs, like the Leafs, believe, like, we got to keep, like, our top, top guys and figure out the on the margins because like this is what elite talent can do for you and the hurricanes up front you know again I there are probably very few people who have been on the Sebastian Ahjo train for longer than I have and uh he's not Matt Kachuck baby like Matt Kachuk is a fucking killer he's awesome of course the thing we have to say there is that reportedly the hurricanes

were right in on him yeah and almost had that deal before the pan. And I like, man, I know some people are probably sick of me saying this. That Kichuk trade that the Panthers made, I love that move so much. It's so good. Franchise altering. And here's the thing. Like, every time I say this, I get a bunch of people going, oh, well, you know, Matthew Kuchuk chucks don't just show up. They're not just available every summer. Yeah, but sometimes they are. He pushed his way out, yeah. Plus he pushed his way out and he only was going to go to a team that he would sign an extension with so it was limited. And I get all of that. But here's the thing. Go back. Find anything that got written in the days leading up to that trade. When we knew that Kuchuk was going to be traded, but we didn't know where. Go find a list of here's where he might go here. You don't see the Panthers on those lists. It was St. Louis was certainly really big.

There were a few other teams in there. You know, Boston was getting mentioned and, you know, various other ones. And yeah, maybe he wouldn't have gone to all those teams. We won't know. There were a bunch of teams listed. Panthers were not considered one of the favorites, let alone, you know, even in on it at all. But what happened is while everybody was going, ah yes the flames are in a position of weakness here they can they have to move him so i mean it's almost

comical to go back now and like read the comments and stuff on any piece talking about what this team might give up because it's all we don't have to give a first round pick we don't have to give up this good player we can get this guy for you know we can nickel and dime this team and the florida panthers just elbowed their way to the front of the line slam down an offer that nobody else had gotten here and said we want to this guy, here's the offer. And the flames went, yeah, that's easily the best offer we've got to the point that a lot of us were singing the praises of Brad Trillivin saying, like, wow, he pulled it out of the fire. He may have won this trade.

And but the Panthers didn't, you know, to use a technical term, they didn't dick around. They just went and paid the price to get the guy they wanted. and it could end up being literally a franchise altering move. While a bunch of other GMs, and I'm not saying Carolina, but I'm saying a bunch of other, there's at least some other GMs that were like, I bet you if we wait it out, we can get this guy cheap. Well, this is what happens when you wait for the sale. Sometimes it's just not there. Yeah, and the balls it takes to be like, oh, our guy who that a lot of people thought was an MVP candidate last year,

fucking see you later. One of our best defensemen. Adios. After you just had 120 points. That's what I'm saying. The balls it took for Bill Zito to do that? Standing Ovation, man,

like you fucking nailed it, brother. That's as good as it gets. If anybody at the time had picked up the phone called Bill Zito and said, this Matthew Kachuk kid is a very available. He'd look great with the Panthers. Are you guys in? And if he had said,

are you crazy? No, we just had 100, we just won the president's trophy. We just had the best season in franchise history. Of course, we're not going to make a blockbuster trade. That's not how it works. Yeah, like, you have to give up Jonathan Huberto to get him. 95% of NHL GMs are like, well, forget it. You know? Yep. But, and this is, this is what I'm all was talking about, right? You got to recognize when you have a veteran player, a guy who you're going to have to give a big contract to soon. Do I want to be on the hook for that? Do you think Calgary's looking at the at the Huberto contract right now and going, look, you hate to lose Maca Chuck, but we got we got Huberto locked in for another eight years.

No, they're looking like, oh, we fucked up bad, you know? Yep. and 10.5 million bucks. Like, you know, I feel like I'd rather have Matthew could chuck at age, what is he, 25, 24? Yep, 25, I think. Yeah. I think I'd rather have him for the next eight years at nine and a half than Jonathan Huberto at 31 or whatever, 30 for the next eight for 10. But again, you're talking about trading a guy is coming off a hundred plus point season.

Yep. who's not himself super old. Like, it's, it's one of these things that people now look back on. We're reconning stuff, right? Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, he wanted to go to Florida. So, of course, he didn't fall into their lap at all. No, they, they, and even if he did want to go to Florida,

they still had to make the winning bid, you know, and. And a lot of us, you know, said that, not that they'd given up too much necessarily, although some people said that, but you were looking at, oh, then they, like, McKenzie Wigger, we're all in on him as like the new, he was like the new Devon Taves, like the new, ungraded, great defenseman that, you know, how do you give him up? And again, we have to say for a big chunk of the regular season, it didn't work, not because Matthew Kuchuk wasn't good, because he was great all year,

but the Panthers, as many, many people have pointed out, you flip one game in that last week of the season, and they're out of the playoffs potentially. We're all having a completely different conversation. Someone, I think on the Puck suit Patreon, like in the mailbag, asks the question, and I wanted to ask it here. Is that the most consequential regular season game in the history of the NHL? Between the Panthers get in, and they go to the cup final probably, you know, in all likelihood,

and it gets Chicago the right combination of numbers, or however the lottery process works to get Connor Bedard. Yeah. And this is the game where Chicago beats Pittsburgh. In the shoot. Which also, by the way, as a bronze medal, it seems to be the game that tips the penguins into total franchise upheaval. Yep. Because they missed the playoffs.

That was the game that last week where it was like, oh, Pittsburgh's just got to win out to make the playoffs. And they had like, was Chicago Columbus. And they're both trying to. lose and then they go and I mean it was like five to two they got blown out. Yep, that's right up there. So anyways, yeah. Full credit to Bill Zito, full credit to

the Panthers. Yeah. Fun team to watch. I still I mean, I'm, I would like to see this series go for a while, both of them, because I like all these teams. So I'll be a little bit bummed if the Panthers finish it in a sweep, but let's let's let's see how it goes. Do you feel like at all, like this can get a little spicy

if Carolina wins tonight, or is this just... I, you know, there would be, I would feel like it's the same thing as the Leafs, you know? Or it's like,

oh, they won the game, cute. All right, you don't... You know what I mean? Like, hey, you said it on the show. Sorry, Hurricanes fans. Yikes. You know what I mean, though? Like, where it's like,

okay, you won your cute little game. Now, now it's, now it's night-night time. That's it. Ball game's over. Um, one last thing I guess we should mention here is, uh, we, as we're recording this, we're starting a little earlier than usual. So we don't have any, any info for morning skate or anything like that.

But, uh, maybe Barkov's injured. That would, that would change, that would change the balance of power here. Yep. And, and it doesn't sound like it's super serious, although the play, it's the playoffs. Yeah. So the, you know, He left, was it in the first period? Did he leave?

I think it was, yeah. Didn't come out for the second period. And it was interesting because he didn't come out for the second period. It didn't play, I mean, he didn't come back in the whole game. So obviously he wasn't playing in the second period. But they announced late in the second they gave the injury status update. They called him questionable instead of out, which is interesting. Because at that point, you pretty much assume he's not coming back.

And yet they always say questionable. Again, it's the playoffs. Maybe they were just a lot. They might be lying now, but it doesn't sound as if it's a, like, as if it's an out of the long term, out of the playoffs, even out for the full series if there was one thing. Maybe if, I mean, if he's banged up, maybe you don't play him in a game four and hope you can finish it and have a week off. Last I saw is they are optimistic that he'll be able to play. here's the quote from Paul Maurice. We don't think it's anything too sinister,

so he'll come in, get worked on real hard today and worked on real hard tomorrow. We'll have a better idea after we see him today where he's at, but I would say I'm more on the optimistic side right now. Okay. So that at the very least doesn't sound like somebody whose availability would be at risk in the final

if, assuming they make it. Right. But I guess we're going to have like four days off, you know. But yeah, and then obviously, Sergey Purovsky having the season of his life. Did you, I guess the only thing I want to bring up with that is, did you see the clip of him talking to Henrik Lunkwist on the post-game show after game three? No, no, I didn't. Lundquist is doing, by the way, a phenomenal job. Like, this guy was born.

He's so good at this shit. It's unbelievable. but anyway he's talking to Sergei Virovsky and he's like oh you know it looks like you're having like the greatest

time of your of your career here right now like nothing can get by you this is this is crazy and if I have the numbers in front of me here really quick he has allowed I think

13 goals on 309 shots on the last two series that's ridiculous That's insane. Goals saved above expected is absolutely ridiculous, which again gets to that, you know, the Carolina thing of whether that stat actually reflects them. But, I mean, he's been very, very good. Yeah, awesome. Just so good.

Yeah, 9.58 save percentage in his last eight games here. That'll win you something in the postseason. But anyway, Lundquist is like. well, you know, this is unbelievable. Like, how do you feel about it? And he was like, well, first of all, I just want to say, like, to have one of the all-time great saying that to me is like so cool. Like, I can't believe that.

Like, wow, that's awesome. Which, like, these guys played against each other, you know? But for him to be saying that, like, I think that's, you don't see that a lot in hockey. I think that's really cool. But he was just, like, rightly assessing the situation by being like, the way they're keeping pucks to the outside in front I mean, they're making my job really easy and all this kind of.

It's true. That's, like, that's, that's exactly what Florida is doing. Like, Bobrovsky, 958 save percentages in the last two series. How many, like, grade A chances are teams getting against this guy? It's not that many. Just, you know, I, so, like, I guess my point is, as much as we should be praising Boprovsky, because, like, you don't get to almost 960 by accident and, like, by, just standing there while the defense does all the work.

The defense is doing a hell of a lot of work, and they're playing great. The team that we thought the blue line was going to be the weak point. For sure. They lost McKenzie Weger. At the end of the day, I think it's just what it comes down to is what you and I have been saying all year, which is Paul Maurice is one of the great coaches of our time. That's right.

And it was an absolutely brilliant move to go with him. Yeah. Because nobody else could have come up with, hey, why don't you, when you stop 96% of the shots you face for a couple rounds. Look, you know, they didn't come up with that in New Jersey. That guy's probably going to win the Jack Adams this year, you know?

They didn't come up with that in Carolina. He won the Jack Adams last year. Is that right? Last year, two years ago? One of those. So, yeah,

you know, obviously like they're just playing a great team game. Again, much like they did against Toronto and Boston, just every mistake, it's like, well, we're going to make you really pay for that one. They're having such a great series. Why don't we jump over to Vegas, Dallas?

Oh, for people wondering, no ads this week. So we're just going to keep rolling here. Vegas Dallas last night, is there any way to talk about this game without first saying that was maybe the stupidest fucking penalty you've ever seen in your life? Yep. That was insanely dumb. that was just

and it wasn't even how do I say this without sounding like a caveman there's never a good time to take a major penalty like two minutes into a game that your team needs to win and you're already trailing

but like that wasn't even a good like it's not like he threw some big open ice hit and you can go like well you know what he was going for the big momentum changer it got away from him Or, you know, a guy, like, showed him his numbers at the last second and he was already committed to the hit. Or even, like, you know what, he just got fired.

He was just so fired up out there that, you know, like, it, this was, like, it obvious premeditated. Like, I'm going to cross-check this dude who's already lying on the ice in the head. I mean, it put it this way. And they're already down one nothing at that point. Oh, my God. Wow. Like, there's, that, that is. Like, you see that play.

Here's how bad it was. In the NHO playoffs, you see that play and you're like, oh, that's definitely a five in a game. That star player is definitely getting kicked out for doing that. There wasn't even a part of you that was like, eh, they'll find a way to, like, no, it was just. And he'll get suspended, too. I mean, I'm probably, yeah. We, again, we're doing this early enough that the whole, you know, he has a hearing thing hasn't been announced yet. but there's no way he doesn't get at least a game and a game would be, I mean,

that should be the rest of a series. Totally. Absolute premeditated attempt to age. You're on a star player, by the way, not that necessarily should factor into it, but yeah, you're going after the other team's best player. And so I would suspend him, how about this, one game for cross-chat, for trying to break a guy's neck, and then five-by-law. more games for not talking to the media, because that, I think, is the real story.

Well, so let me just quickly say this one other thing about the penalty is it was so obvious that I can't remember. Dave Jackson is the official expert that ESPN uses, I think. But anyway, whoever it is, now I'm now. There's Dave Jackson and Koharski. Oh, Harski. Right. Me neither.

Because usually they just go, you know, whatever the rest decide here, that's probably going to be the right call. You know, like, just don't want to rock the boat too much. And often airing on the side of, well, look, it's a fast game out there. I'd only give the guy two minutes, that kind of thing. Immediately last night he's like, this has to be a major and the gate. Like, you can't even question it. It's such, and again, right in front of the official, it's such a stupid penalty.

But anyway, to your point about not talking to the media, usually this is a thing where I'm like, okay, who cares? You know, oh, the guy had a bad game. But I will say, when you're the captain who, when your team is down one nothing, two minutes into pretty much a must win game. and you take a five-minute major that they score on and also, like, don't talk to the media after the game, that is a fucking clown move. Yeah. When you're the captain.

When you're the captain specifically, yes. Because you're supposed to be the one that... You're supposed to be the one getting up there going, A, it's not over. And also, like, let's say it's just a game where you didn't play particularly well and nobody wants to talk. You're supposed to be the guy that talks.

That's why they put the fucking C on your shirt. And for you to, like, duck out of the building, you know, like, that's, that doesn't work for me, you know. And again, like, I'm not, I'm never the guy saying, like, I'm usually the guy saying who gives a shit. This is overblown, but. The thing that it, you know, and we'll see. I'm sure he'll talk today. Well, maybe I'm not sure, but I suspect he'll talk today. And he might just go, like, look, I was so pissed at myself last night.

that anything I said was just going to make the situation worse. And so, you know, like, sure. But as the captain, he probably should get there. But also, this is kind of the thing where we're, I haven't seen anyone go too bad on the whole, like, oh, you know, he didn't have the guts to face the gauntlet of the media going. Like, what was going through your head on that play? Oh, what a dagger of a question. We'll never know. Right.

No. Nothing was going through his head is I'm... I'm pissed. I'm an idiot. Yeah. No, you just want him to go like, look, I fucked up. I don't know what else to say. You know, like, it was a stupid penalty at the absolute worst time.

That's all anybody wants. I don't need, like, I don't need him to go, look, but maybe he's like, I didn't even do anything. You know, and that wouldn't help. You're right about that. But, yeah, it... So what do you think the suspension will be? Two. or sometimes they do the rest of the series, which max of two anyway, but I think, I think

you're, I don't know how it works. Can they just go, Andy has to miss a preseason game next year? Is he, you know what I mean? They would roll it into, they can say, yeah, they could say, for example, you know, they could just say four games, right, which is the rest of the series, and then it rolls into the regular season. It's not the preseason, but, uh, or they can say the rest of the series.

They are allowed to get sort of creative on it. They could slice and dice it. Or they could just say one game and we could all race to our keyboards to make the, wow, the rest of the series jokes. But yeah, so you're thinking two-thirds of a bunting? Okay. Hmm.

I mean, Ben does have a history of some of this stuff, but he's also not, he doesn't smirk when he draws penalties, so it's probably not, doesn't need the full. Michael Bunting treatment. I would go, I would go three. Yeah. I really would. Makes perfect sense to me.

Like, I'm just, you know, it's, I don't know what Jamie Venn's history is. Like, you know, like what they consider he's a repeat offender or any of that kind of stuff. I honestly don't know. But I just feel like given that it's the playoffs and all that, they usually say it's, it's, it's a 2x multiplier basically. I think two makes sense. Three wouldn't surprise me. One wouldn't surprise me.

But anything beyond three, I'd be like, whoa, they were really pissed at him for doing that. Given that there's not an injure, like I'm being a bit of a smart ass on the bunting thing, but he took a guy out for the series versus Stone. Yep.

I mean, could have been very seriously injured, but. Oh, yeah. Crossed back guy in the face. All right, let's talk about something else. Remember last week we were saying like, oh, there's something wrong with Jake Otter, or I was saying maybe there's something wrong with Jake Ottinger. Yeah.

Ray Ferraro had the stat that made me go, okay, that's what's wrong with Jake Ottinger. He has played 41 of the last 46 Stars games. That's what's wrong with Jake Ottinger. Yeah. Huh, interesting. I think, you know, like, I don't want to... Yeah. Young guy means, hey, he's not like an old guy who's breaking down,

but also it means we don't really have a track record of him playing huge numbers of games. So, yeah, that's... Wow. Because, I mean, it's not like, well, they weren't in a playoff battle, but they were in that... They were in that battle for top seed in the central, which was crucial, because we all knew that if you finish first in the central, you got an easy matchup with the Cracken

instead of a really tough one. Yeah. So it was important to get that. We're smart. But, uh, oh, okay. Yeah, that, maybe that's just it. Well, he got a bit of a rest last night.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Um, the other thing I want to say is I saw people going like, oh, he's been, like, he was like really bad last night. And I wouldn't quite go that far personally. Um, it looked like the, the, I think it was the first,

goal got deflected a little bit. One of the goals was like a weird backhander, like, through a guy that I don't know that he should have necessarily seen and that sort of thing. But, like, again, you just can't have your starting goalie giving up three goals in the first seven minutes of a game. And again, borderline must win game. Like, if that's not a must win game, you and I have, I guess, different definitions. As must win as it gets probably, and they just didn't do it. They didn't get the performance they needed from him. But, yeah, the stat that I saw last night was Vegas had 0.8 expected goals in that game and won 4 to nothing.

That's not going to work, you know. Is this, are they done? Yeah. I mean, again, like I'm not, we're not going on on a great limb saying a team that's down 3-0 is done. But they, you know, unlike Carolina where you just feel like they're banging their heads against the wall and they're one, one shift away from maybe turning the tide. Dallas, again, first two games went into overtime. But man, that was a, to come on to whole mice. And lay an egg like that.

just get that. And, and, you know, again, not to put too much stock in the Ben thing, but having him, you know, like, we, I don't want to go down, oh, you know, they're melting down. Oh, they're throwing in the towel or whatever. But that, that wasn't a good game. Nope. Nope. And even like the, like the max domy thing at the end of the second period. What was it, Nick Haig, he did that too? Yeah. Did you see Hague shoot him the thumbs up? Like, hey, good job on that one. Oh, you do not. want that. That one hurts. I will, I'm glad Hague was okay after he got cross-checked in the back and somehow his feet wound up over his head in midair.

That was, like, that was clear. If you're Max Domi, you can't go out and like take a bunch of penalties, but I do get, you know, especially when your last name is Domi, there's got to be a part of you that's like, all right, man, if you're going to fly through the air like a cartoon character when I tap you, I'll get my money's worth. Well, also, Nick Haig is four times his size? Yes. You know, he could have done the classic thing where he just extends his arm, puts, like, his palm on Domi's forehead and Domi's just swinging, not hitting anything, you know? And, but yeah, no, like he... You never know when Dad's coming out of the stand, so... A hundred percent. And then, oh, wait, hold on.

We got to... We might need to go back and... start over because we talked about this game a lot without expressing our total outrage and disgust at Dallas fans throwing popcorn on the ice. Look, man, here's the thing. Ryan, we haven't used the word classy yet. No. Can we?

Here's the thing. I grew up watching a lot of professional wrestling in the 80s and 90s. Something bad happens. You don't like it. You're throwing your cup of Coke and your popcorn and garbage in the ring, you know? Like, to me, this is... Macho man could take a full cup of Coke from the back, from the upper deck. Well, and you saw Aiden Hill's quote about it, right?

Yes. Also very funny. They're in fucking Jimmy Butler mode down there. You know, I know the heat loss last night, but where the people who didn't see, Aden Hill, they asked him about like getting hit with popcorn. He goes, I guess everything was hitting me tonight. Oh, no! That was...

Between that and the thumbs up, it was like, damn, okay. Yep. These guys are feeling it. Now, Pride goeth before the fall or whatever, you know what I mean? Yes. And that's why I'm saying double reverse sweep. Let's go. Oh, boy.

There we are. I, look, if you're at a game, do not throw a full beer can on the ice. Don't throw anything on. on the ice. And if you do throw it on the ice, make sure you've got the arm to get it to the ice. Yeah. But other than that, like, uh, did you see? Was it, uh, was it, uh, was it, uh, was it Jason Broff who had like the thing where it was just like a scroll of all the people saying stay classy, Dallas fans? Like, I feel like that movie's 20 years old at this point. We can probably,

oh, yeah, I'm retired telling people to be classy. I love how we, that, wow. Man, it's, dude, it's the playoffs. No, it's only 19, 2004. It's the Stanley Cup. Remember fans, it's the Stanley Cup playoffs. Get into it, be passionate, be, you know, screaming and loud and obsessed and pay thousands of dollars for seats to the games. But don't throw your popcorn. It's only a game. Yeah. Because you wouldn't want to be unclassy. Yeah, well, again, like you said, it's not a full beer can. It's just pop porn. Who cares? Apparently all of us do, because it's, we got to go into the outrage Olympics as soon as, as soon as that happens.

Two other things in this series. And again, this is, this is what separates teams at this time of year, usually, often, is Vegas's best players? They're going fucking psycho mode in this series. Dallas's best players, well, eh, not so much.

Jason Robertson did come back, but Yeah, he's the only one, right? The score sheet, but yeah. It's tough, man. Like, Jack Eichol looking like the Kahn-Smith favorite all of a sudden. Him or Kachuk, I guess, but

those seem like the two. You know? I mean, well, if Florida wins, it's going to be Bobrovsky. You think so? even with the... Above Kachuk, I think. If he plays like this again.

Yeah, okay. If he goes 960, I think you're right. If he goes 960. If he settles down, I mean, the Kahn Smyth, it kind of seems to be weighted like 50% to the final, so it's hard to say. It's true. Jack Eichel, that'd be a hell of a story, right? I said this the other day.

Is there a funnier storyline for it to play out with, oh, you can't win with Jack Eichel? You can't win with Jack Eichel. He gets traded to vague. and obviously, like, didn't have a full season last year with them. I'm going to say that doesn't really count as his first season in Vegas, even though obviously it is part of a season. Would he play like 30 games or something like that? Not even.

His first season in Vegas, they won, did they win the division? I think they did, right? Vegas this year? Yeah, they were first. Yeah. So Vegas wins the division. with Jack Eichel being probably their best,

certainly their best forward, arguably their best player, depending on how you want to say Petrangelo did this season, I think. And despite just a rotation of goalies, right? And he, then he's like, in the playoffs especially.

No, no, no. Hop on, boys. I'm driving. And he just, he's been awesome, basically the entire playoff. Maybe got a little bit of a slow start, but if I'm remembering, right, but like he's just been the last two rounds, like fucking unbelievable.

Yeah, and no goals in this series, but that was, man, that, the setup last night on the, was it the first goal, the second goal? I don't know, where he like caught the puck and just dished it over. That was. Did you see, was it Robertson he put in the blender late in the game?

Like, he didn't even get a shot off. There was a point. play where he didn't get a shot off, but he was coming in down the left wing against Robertson one on one. And Robertson thought he was going right and he was not. It was like it just

looks like it's coming real easy to him right now. As you say, he doesn't even have a goal in the series. He only has two assists. But like, he's the guy making it happen for Vegas 90% of the time when he's out there. Somebody pointed out to me

and I hadn't thought of this and it made my heart hurt. But remember the epic Buffalo Sabres two-year tank job? Yeah. We are one game at each side away from a Jack Eichael versus Sam Reinhardt final. The two number two picks. Yeah, but just funny. We all said that, you know, Reinhardt and Ikel could be the core of a championship.

We just were off by a little. The other thing about that is like, if you had said last year, hey, next season, like in the in the 2021-22 season, hey, next season, guy from Alberta and a guy that went really high in the 2015 draft. Those are going to be your cons might. Those are your guys. Oh, well, surely one of them is Carter McDavid, if not both of them. Well, not so fast, you know, funny. And I guess the last thing to say on Eichol is the same stuff we just said about the Panthers with Matthew Kachuk. An elite player became available.

Yes, under weird circumstances. Yes, under the sort of like, well, that doesn't happen all the time. But again, it happened. And all these great players, oh, it never happens. It never happens. It seems like it happens kind of a lot. I mean, it feels like Vegas has three elite players that they traded for on their team. Yeah.

that are all playing key roles right now. So for something that never happens, it seems to happen. So it's Eichael, Aden Hill, who's the third one? That's right. That's the guy. And like, but Jack Eichael was there. And again, Vegas had a million reasons not to do it, including cap space, including, you know,

but they were like, let's get this done. And they got it done. And now we're a game away from Eichol versus Kuchuk in the Stanley Cup final, while your favorite team has been sitting around talking about patience and it's too hard to make trades and we got to manage the cap and all this stuff. I don't know, man. I'm being way too simplistic about this, but flags do fly forever.

Well, even beyond that, it seems like one of these teams is going to get one. It's just like you got to, sometimes like if you're, a lot of teams are afraid to be like, we're going to, you know, as the saying goes, We're going to drop our balls on the table on this one. Like, we need one player, like a huge difference maker.

We're going to go get them. Like, not enough team. And look, I get it because it's the nature of, um, it's the nature of the sport, right? Like, you don't have to have an unbelievable regular season to, to make it to a cup final, even win a championship, right? You don't have, you don't have to have, but you don't have to have, but you do have to have difference-making players. And I can see why a team would be like, we'll just roll the dice with the group we have.

But I think you're starting to see more and more as teams try to like maneuver in a tight-cap league and all this kind of stuff. That like if you're willing to go out there and get a difference, like a huge difference-making player, whether you get them via trade or via free agency or whatever, Not that huge difference makers make it to free agency that frequently, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Might just be worth it. And again, like the Vegas Golden Knights, when they made that Jack Eichael trade, were coming off a season. It was the 56 game season, but where they were on pace for like not that far off the 120 points that the Panthers had.

They were coming off an absolutely phenomenal season where. they could have said we like our mix. It's all good. We don't need to make big changes. That wasn't an off-season trade because of the injury, but it kind of was because Idle hadn't played and, you know, it wasn't going to play it for a while. So they, again, and I'm like you can, I'm sure people can read that I'm projecting my leaf fan angst into this, but both of those teams could have said, we like our mix.

It didn't work out the playoffs. but we really believe in our group going forward. Instead, both teams went, no, screw that. There's an elite player. We want in on this. They went out and figured out a way to get it done. And a lot of us, you know, we said with the Panthers, Flames Strait, a lot of us went, oh, they gave up too much.

The Flames did great. A lot of people in Buffalo, to this day, are very happy with the Jack-Eggardtray. Right, I think you can make a... They didn't get them for nothing. A legitimate argument that while the, you know, the teams that are left standing in the playoffs right now, got by far the better player or the best player in either of those trades.

And my thing was always like the Flames cannot win the Matthew Kachukh trade. I don't care who they get. And I still believe that. I think they, I think they won that trade, right? But for me, like, they did it. Both teams did as well as you reasonably could. Yeah.

And I don't know. I don't blame, well, obviously Calgary was kind of painted into a corner, and to a lesser extent, so was Buffalo. Calgary did fantastic under the circumstances, which a lot of us, I think they did so well that a lot of us tip too far into saying, yeah, it was a mini. You talk about recconning, like, look back at the trade grades for that trade. A plus is everywhere for the Calgary Flames. when people go now, like, oh, we all knew that was a bad trade. Again, no, that's not how it went down.

No, for sure. Yeah, I just, I don't know how if you're a good team that, Caroline is a great example. Is it not very obvious that what they really need right now is a big difference maker up front? And again, maybe you say if they have Svechnakov, we're not having this conversation. That's maybe true. and it's almost certainly true to have both Svechnakov and Patsy Ready. They were apparently the runner up on Kachuk.

Yep. According to Pierre Martin Eschkis was a piece they were dangling. They were apparently, I'd almost forgotten this, but apparently were they were the runner up on Tim O'Meyer. Yeah, that's true. It's not like they haven't been out there taking their swings. It just they haven't been able to finish it. Yeah, and you know, now that you say that, it's funny,

because people could say the opposite of everything I was just saying is true because like New Jersey went out and they got Team O'Meyer and it didn't fucking matter. And it's like, well, I mean, you know, they had injuries and the goaltending situation and all that. But like, you know, only two teams get to go to the cup final every year. I don't think it's the wrong philosophy to be like we need huge difference makers on this team. You know? I think we're moving out of an era where you can do it kind of by committee. And maybe we moved out of that era four or five years ago.

But, you know, like, I'll give you a good example. Is that the Bruins, when they won the Stanley Cup over, I think a Canucks team that had more difference makers up front, you would say. Like, obviously Eichel, or Eichel, Bergeron. obviously like that's but like that's not like a game breaking forward they didn't really like Milan Luci and they had Brad Marshaan but he was a rookie

and they had Luci and he was a 30 goal guy but that didn't feel like and like they had Sagan he was a rookie and you know they had good they had good forwards for sure but not elite they just had Tim Thomas they had Tim Thomas and Zadano Chara

right like that's but I I think look at all the recent cup winners, you know, I think you gotta have like, I guess the exception would be the blues. They didn't have like an MVP caliber forward, but they're kind of an outlier in the last, what, since the last Chicago Cup?

Yeah, I mean, they're used to, you don't really hear it anymore, but you used to always hear the stat about how every cup winner had like a top three pick somewhere in the lineup. playing a key role. But the blues feel like the outlier in that, in that I think obviously like Ryan O'Reilly won the con smites. So like, you know, and he's obviously, especially in his prime, was like a great center. But like not a guy where it's like, ooh, put the puck on his tape and he can break a game.

Put it this way. As good as he was in that playoffs and he was phenomenal, nobody even tried to shoehorn the, is he the new best player in the world? thing that we always do whenever. They're doing it right now with Matthew Kachuk. Maybe not best player in the world, I think McDate, but like people are like... I think we all now at this point.

Like when you say best player in the world, there's a... Who isn't Conner-M-M-Dadegh. As opposed to, you know, Best human player in the world. Right. As opposed to like the early 2010s where it was like every three months we're like, okay, is this guy better than Sidney Crosby? And it's like, okay,

we don't have to do this all, every time. But anyway, Yeah, let's move on to the whole Toronto thing. Once again, Sean, I guess I just going to say your thoughts. You know, you're going to say it better than me. What a week, eh? So when we recorded last week, we had seen the Kyle Dewas press conference, but obviously not yet the Brandon Shanahan.

Yeah, I think that was on Friday. Yeah. Yep. And it was, I mean, so the last time that we talked, the dubous thing was up in the air. We didn't know if he was going to be back or not. And that was fine. We were kind of waiting on that decision. And then I was leaning towards, it felt like he was staying.

And then Friday morning, Friday around lunch, we get the news that he's not. not that the Leafs have decided to move on. And okay, I mean, that was, I think Kyle Dubus was a good GM. I don't think he was a GM who was like so impeccable that he, you had to keep him at all costs. So, okay, you're moving on. Great. Let's hear from Brandon Shanahan and find out what the path going forward is.

And then instead, we get Brendan Chanahan sitting down for story time. and he proceeds to lay out this entire timeline of events that basically boils down to we wanted to take a year to evaluate things. We did take a year to evaluate things. Our evaluation was that we wanted Kyle Dubas to stay as GM, and now Kyle Dubus isn't the GM anymore. Right. And essentially saying that that press conference last Monday that we had seen,

and I don't remember last week's show, I don't remember what I did this morning. Sure. But I don't think we went on an extended analysis of what Dubas had said. I mean, the fact that he talked about the toll on his family, and that was, you know, interesting and a good reminder of what kind of what this job is. but I mean, I wasn't blown away by it. I wasn't sitting there going like, damn, I've never heard anyone talk like that about NHL job.

You just kind of went, yeah, it sounds like it's a tough job, and he's acknowledging that. But apparently, Brandon Shanahan heard it differently and set in motion a chain of events and then contract offers and back and forth and an email instead of a phone call. And, you know, I don't think anybody. looks at this and goes, oh, we've got the whole story. Like, there clearly was something else happening behind the scenes or, you know.

And again, what was, Shanahan made reference to, like, the agent came back with a different, that there was a financial gap or something, basically implying that they came back asking for more money. And Dubus and his statement kind of suggested that

maybe that wasn't the case. or maybe we're just reading too much into it. But I got to say, I didn't, I didn't hear anything that made me understand why you would go from, this is our guy to we have to go in a new direction in four days. And I say that as somebody that I know, you know, some people go, well, you're the guy saying the Leafs need to make changes.

Now they made changes and you're criticizing them. And, okay, I'm, like, If Brandon Shanahan got up there on Friday and went, look, I like Kyle Dubas, he's a good guy, it wasn't good enough, and we're moving on. Or if he says, you know what, we just need a change, we need a fresh vision. Or if he says Kyle and I are not getting along, there's a philosophical disagreement. Or if he says, hey, Kyle's a good GM, but I've got a great GM, and here he is and, you know, out walks whoever. Like any of that, I'd be like, okay, you know what, Kyle Dubus will be a great GM. great GM somewhere else probably, but hey, it was time for a change in Toronto.

But that's not what happened. Instead, we got Brandon Shanahan basically say I spent a year making the single biggest decision that this franchise had in front of it. I chose Kyle Dubas up until 48 hours ago or whatever. He was my choice, and now he's not the GM anymore. And I'm just kind of left sitting there going, that doesn't sound like that was a good decision making process. Yeah. If you read what Elliot Friedman wrote, like, I think, kind of late last night, it was basically the money was not really a factor.

And this is just, you know, who knows who Elliott talks to or what they said specifically. But it wasn't so much that the money was a factor. It was that Kyle Dubus apparently wanted to streamline the decision-making process for the whole organization. Yeah. Where he didn't want it to have to go, he says something to Shanahan. Shanahan takes it to the board. The board tells Shanahan what they think.

He brings it back to Dubas. He wanted to go directly to the board and say the things he wanted to say himself. Yeah. And between that and like Shanahan determining Kyle Dubus isn't all in on, uh, on, on being a leaf if he's got to talk to his family or whatever the fuck. Like between those two things, it sounds like that's where the breakdown ultimately happened. Yeah. So as far as the structure, sure.

I get that, I mean, this is, we've, if you've been a leaf fan long enough, you know the nightmare of like the pension plan and all the dumb ownership that we've had and, you know, the John Ferguson. era where he apparently couldn't get them to buy into a rebuild. So this kind of brings back, like, oh, Christ, here we go again. Because the last few years, he haven't heard much about leaf ownership. No, for sure. So, you know, and now it's kind of coming back. There has been talk that Shanahan may have, I don't know if veto is the right word, but prevented dubas from making certain moves.

Oh, and real. One of the ones that's been, well, one of the ones that's been flagged is, You remember there was a, was it, yeah, last year's deadline. There was a report that the Leafs had been talking to the Blackhawks about a deal that would have been Mark Andre Fleury and Brandon Hagel, who right before he went to Tampa. That's right. For Peter Marzic and Matthew Nyes, and that that may have been a deal that Dubas wanted to make that Chanahan said no. Right. Now, you could, given how good Matthew and I's looked in the playoffs,

there might be some fans going, oh, thank God they didn't move him. But also, I mean, your GM should be able to make the trades he wants to make. Totally. So I get the frustration there. I'll just say this, though. As a fan, Ed, you want to get in an argument about who's allowed to talk to the bosses and who's allowed to present to the board. I don't care about that.

Figure it out. Sure. not a reason to move on from a GM that you yourself have decided is the right guy. I don't care. Figure it out. I mean, I'm being simplistic here, obviously, but figure it out. From Dubus's point of view, like you say, like not even like veto power or whatever, but just being like, I don't want to play this fucking game of telephone where it could

take hours for me to hear back on X, Y, or Z, you know, depending on what's going on with Brendan Shanahan or the board members at any given time. I just want to be able to text the guy on the board and be like, here's what I think or whatever. Like, that's totally reasonable to me. But also, I can see why Shanahan, like, if that's the way he wants to, like, if he wants to be that go between, where he's like, that doesn't work for me, you know? Yeah, and I can see it. but I'm just, like, as a fan, oh, yeah, no. I'm not like, oh, yeah, okay, well, I mean, yeah,

if it comes down to who gets talked to the board, then obviously, I mean, you gotta, you gotta get a new GM then, like, fine. And then the other thing is the whole, like, you know, he wasn't all in. And again, like, I watched that press conference that Dubas gave where it's like, it was interesting, but I didn't find it remarkable.

Like, I wasn't watching this going, like, holy crap. I had that reaction watching Shams. I was like, this feels like, I don't know if I've ever seen something like this. I didn't feel that way with Duba's. Like the, there is an interpretation that you get from some belief, because look, Lee fans are like any fan base. There are some fans that will see everything the team's way, whatever they feel like that is.

That's, that's their version of loyalty or whatever. And the version that is, I guess, the most pro-Shanahan. interpretation out there. And this is just people, this isn't coming from Shanahan or anyone that we've seen. But the interpretation would be Dubas and Shanahan had been talking for a while exchanging offers about him coming back.

Dubus knew that Shanahan wanted him to stay. He gets up there on Monday in front of the media and instead of just saying like, hey, you know, blah, end of the year, disappointing, etc. That he kind of

blindsides Brandon Shanahan with this whole performance of how hard the job is and how tough it is on his family and then turns around

and has his agent asked for more money and the whole thing was just a PR act to put the screws to the Leafs and turn Kyle Dubas into this sympathetic character

and that Shanahan essentially either called his blow off or took him at his word and said, okay, if you're not all in, then we got to move on. I don't know, man. It's, to me, get the best guy, figure it out. If Dubus is the best guy.

And again, this is the thing. Like, I'm not saying this is some huge Kyle Dubus supporter. I think he's a good GM. I think he's going to be very successful in this league somewhere else. I don't think it was a no-brainer that he had to come back in Toronto. Totally. Totally agree with it. But if you're sitting there going, you know, as some Lee fans in my mentions are, going, like, Dubes is a bomb, he only won one playoff round.

He never, you know, this and that, and they don't have picks, and he inherited all the pieces. You know, the Corps 4 was already there other than Tavares, and so he shouldn't get credit for that. Okay, fine. Brandon Shanahan disagrees with you. Like, the guy who's going to hire the new GM thought the old GM should stick around, and then somehow it fell apart. So if you think Dubus is a bum, I've got bad news for you about what the guy who's doing the next hire thinks.

Totally. Because he thought Dubus was the guy right up until he wasn't. And, of course, now you've got, where does that leave Sheldon Keith? Where does it leave Austin Matthews? Yeah. Apparently, Austin Matthews is the first player I've ever heard of in the history of pro sports, who was like best friends with his GM and might not want to play anymore if the guy in a suit isn't there that he likes. I don't know.

But it's, yeah, it's chaos right now. This is, you know, everybody was kind of waiting every year. Like, when's it going to blow up in Toronto? This is it. It's blown up. It's blown up pretty good. All right. So we'll get to the office.

Matthews and Sheldon Keith thing in a minute, but let's start with the potential replacements. And I'm just going to read you the list that I think Frank Sarer Valley put out the other day. Okay. Mark Bergevan, off to a running start. Matthew Darsh, Chris Draper, excuse me, Brandon Pridham, Steve Steos, Brad Truliffe, Eric Tulski, Ray Whitney. That's in alphabetical order. Um, so I appreciate that that list didn't have like Shirelli and some of these other guys on it. Well, I mean, but not exactly a murderer's row.

Calgary swooped in and scooped up Dave Nonas before. Yeah, that was a tough one. But so I think it is interesting that they go from Kyle Dubas, a guy who like barely has an elite prospects page. I think he might have had, like, maybe one season as a youth player, maybe not even that much. And then it's a bunch of former NHL, or I think Brad Trill Living never made the NHL, but a bunch of NHL players.

I don't think Tulski, I don't think Tulski played in the NHS. Well, I was going to say, and then also. A couple years. And then also Brandon Pridham and Eric Tulski, like, Pritom, it's like, okay, he's the AGM. Ritom's there now. And Tulski's the guy that you say, oh, we're talking to the smart guy. Yeah.

Where it might be more of a thing. Tulski's the guy that even if you're not going to hire him, you just like call him up for an interview and you're like, hey, could you just spend eight hours telling us what you would do if you were here? That's what I was going to say. While we furiously make notes. You just pick his brain and then you don't hire him is what it. The role he has seemed to lapse into, because I saw yesterday that he might he might be. out for the penguins as well. Okay.

So. I will say, I, I like Tolski a lot. I think he's going to be a great GM in the league. I'm not, as a Lee fan, I'd love to have a very smart guy in the organization. I'm not sure that stepping in to replace Kyle Dubas would be the right situation for him to succeed, just in the market, just as far as perception. Sure. Yeah, he's a computer.

computer boy. Well, and considering we just finished five years of calling Kyle Dubas, a computer boy, a guy who worked his way up from Stickboy has lived in

hockey rinks his whole life, but he has glasses, so that means he's an analytics nerd. I don't know how that market would. Man, it's that the ideal

is you get Tolski, you get the Carolina thing, right? You get Tolski coming in. and running the show, and you get some grizzled hockey man, but I don't think he's, I don't think he's looking for that. No.

I wouldn't be surprised. And that is, it's worth saying that Shanahan said at the press conference that having somebody with experience would be, I don't remember his exact words, but he basically said, not that it's a deal breaker, but that that would be preferred. Some people have interpreted that to mean experience as a GM, although, I mean, there are guys who have been in front offices for years and years

and haven't had a shot at being a GM that could potentially qualify. Not a lot of A-plus candidates on that list. The other option, of course, is that is there a way to shake somebody free who's not currently available and Doug Armstrong is the guy that a lot of people are pointing in right now. This fucking Doug Armstrong thing. It's like...

So why do you say it? Why do you... So I think it's specifically Darren Drager keeps going, keep an eye on this Doug Armstrong thing and everybody in St. Louis is like, this is fake. What are you talking about? Like, I think even Drager at some point was like,

people in St. Louis are telling me this is not real. However, keep an eye on it. And it's like, well, you know, It's just the one, but point being, it's the one guy, you know. And it is, I mean, because he's a, well, he's Canadian. I don't know if he's like from Toronto or whatever, and he's won the guy and all this stuff. Look, I mean, there's a history of this. Toronto has done this before, right?

I mean, they went and plucked Cliff Letcher away from the flames and then they hired Pat Burns as a coach when people didn't even know Pat Burns was available because he wasn't until an hour before the press conference. That was a long time ago. but they should. I mean, they did the same thing with Brian Burke, right? Brian Burke was employed by another team, and the Leafs were like, no, we want this guy, and they found a way. I'll say this.

You say everyone in St. Louis is saying there's nothing to it. Doug Armstrong could end this with one interview. Sure. We haven't heard from Doug Armstrong saying, I'm not going to Toronto. One sentence, and it's over. And he hasn't said that yet. So that's a little bit.

The quote that Drager said was, high-ranking source close to the blues says, quote, all of this talk seems to be fabricated. Now, the question is, why is it being fabricated? Right. Like, there's, maybe there's some amount of, like, I don't know, I don't know what Doug Armstrong's contract looks like or whatever. He is under contract, apparently, and there was talk of, does he have an out? And then people said no. But again, like, this is GM executive front office contracts are not like player contracts where they're just locked it.

Like, the Oilers can't go to Connor McDavid and say you can go to Toronto if you want. Whereas if Doug Armstrong goes to St. Louis ownership and says, this is my dream job. I've done everything I can do here. He is signed. St. Louis can at least say, St. Louis has the option to say, yes, you can go. And they just tear up the contract. Armstrong is signed through 25, 26.

Right. So that's That's a long time I think I think A it's just people It's not even connecting dots It's just people looking for an example Of a you know

A GM who would be a high profile guy But I think this is It makes sense for the Leafs to be like hey Oh shake every tree We've got the money right Like that's fine And not even shake every tree But like we got the money

We've got a good roster And it's You know For a lot of these guys I mean, for a lot of these guys probably want nothing to do with coming to Toronto and being in the middle of that market, but a lot of these guys do. For a lot of people, and I know people roll their eyes, this is going to be one of the dream jobs in the league. And if you're a Toronto guy who a lot of these executives are, maybe it's the dream job. So to put it out there that, hey, we're, you know, I don't think it's impossible to imagine that when we get to the end of this, that we're sitting there going,

and oh, we didn't even know that guy was available, and the Leafs ended up locking him down. Now it's also possible that they just settle for Brad True Living, and that's the end of it. Yeah. Who know? How do you feel about the Brad True Living of it all? Let's say it's him, because it feels like it's going to be him.

I think, I mean, I think he's a good GM. I think he did a good job in Calgary. It does, you know, he didn't have a ton of playoff success with the flames. No, he sure didn't. If that's your reason for moving on from Kyle Dubas, I'm not sure. Well, you know, here's my thing with True Living is, you know, I think he did, for the most part, he did a good job of building like a solid roster, you know, like they have a good roster. They were a good team last year. Has a tendency to sign some horrible contracts, some of which he buys out himself or, you know.

you know, the Luchich contract is finally up. That's only because he gave out that stupid James Neal contract that everybody knew was going to be bad from day one. And the main thing, though, I don't know that this guy knows how to hire coaches. Yeah. You know, like that's what it boils down to for me. I mean, Daryl Sutter was great for one year, but, yeah. Right. Well, okay, I think if I'm remembering.

right for living takes over midway through Bob Hartley's run, if I'm not wrong about that. So this is the list of Flames coaches since then. Bob Hartley for another like season or two. Glenn Gulletson, whoopsie Daisy, Bill Peters didn't work out. Maybe that maybe you say that's not really his fault. Although you can also say he should have vetted things better, you know, whatever. I don't. But I'm just saying, so Bill Peters, he, he wasn't even doing that great when they fired him.

They were a 500 team, basically, when they fired him. Jeff Ward comes in, kind of, I want to say, on an interim basis. Then, Darrell Sutter. And then, you know, things went how they went with Daryl Sutter, you know. He didn't have a, you didn't have a great, like you said, obviously they were great last year, but on the whole, not that great and certainly maybe a little, a little worse than you, than you might think, given the roster at the time, but also needs to be noted, Bradge for Living, lost two superstar caliber players.

Yep. And so that's, what makes him so interesting is, you know, we were talking in the early, about how great it was that the Panthers went out and made the Matthew Kachuk trade. And I wrote a couple weeks ago. I said, like, that's the sort of thing that the Leafs never did, is to go out and make that sort of trade where the Panthers broke up their core to get, to make a trade, and the trade worked out. And I had a lot of people make the somewhat fair counter argument that, yeah, but if you go

and trade Mitch Marner or whoever, you're not the Panthers in that trade. the flames. Correct. And I don't totally buy that, but the fact that it's the Flames GM now potentially coming in. Like, I think it's fair to say, look at that situation and how it was handled, not just as far as the trade that he made. Because again, like, feet to the fire, the flames did great on that trade, but then the contracts that got handed out because of it. Yep. Like, I think it'd be totally fair in an interview with Brad for Living to say, like, what did you learn from that situation? And what did you learn from Johnny Grasau?

Because guess what? You thought it was bad that Johnny Gras played out his contract and left as a free agent? We got a guy named Austin Matthews here. Mike he was about to do the same thing. So what did you learn, you know, how... To bring in the guy,

one of the few GMs to have let a super high profile forward walk as a UFA into this Toronto situation is, potentially interesting. Yep, yep. By the way, did you see the Craig Conroy? We'll talk about the Craig Conroy thing more in depth in a minute,

but did you see the quote about the whole Godreau-Kachuk thing? Where he was just like, I wouldn't have let that happen? That's the quote. I wouldn't have let that, or I won't let that happen again or something like that. Which I'd be curious, like, what does he mean by that? Because if he means I won't let a player go. into his last year and potentially leave,

then they've got Lindholm in that situation right now. So is he saying he's going to trade him this summer? Or is he just, or is this just like, I just wouldn't let good players leave my team. Like, well, I'm sorry, man.

He's not up to you. Yeah, no. Wouldn't have really had a choice. Yeah, I think the read on that is more, I would not, I would do the thing of like making sure I had a plan. Because I think the thing is the flames were kind of surprised by the Godreau thing.

Yeah. And again, what was the plan? Like the flames were 110.1 that year. So were you going to trade Johnny Godreau for futures at the deadline? Is that the plan? But I don't know. But yeah. No, and as I pointed out, the flames both Godreau and Kachuk at the end of season media said,

oh, we want to be back. So when people point to, you know, Leaf players saying that, yeah, that's sometimes that's. So anyways, last word on the Leafs is it's a mess and it has potential to go very bad. It could also work out, you know, change is scary, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of us said they needed something. So now they're getting something. But this, as I wrote a piece like in the immediate aftermath of the Shanahan thing where I basically said like, this is the first time in nine years.

that Shanahan's been there, that I've had that kind of feeling as a Lee fan of, oh, man, these guys might not know what they're doing. Yeah, totally. And that was, that feeling was pretty permanent through, through Harold Ballard, went away for Cliff Ledcher, came back for a bit, went away for Pat Quinn,

and then the Burke, Nonas, Ferguson, all those guys, like, where they were just proudly the dumbest team in the league for better part of a decade. and now it's like this nagging feeling again of, oh man, this might be headed in a really bad direction. Yep. We'll see. One last related thing, Dubus to Pittsburgh question mark. Seems like they might be looking at him for maybe not even GM, like more president of hockey ops kind of thing.

Who knows? Sure. Yeah. And I'll say, like, I know Dubus said at this now infamous press. conference where he said, like, I'm not going to, uh, you know, I don't want to be anywhere else but Toronto, but if the way things played out, if he decides to go somewhere else, I've got no issue with that. Like, I know some people would be like, aha, look, he was bluffing about that. No, he wasn't. He said he wanted to be in Toronto and Toronto didn't want him. So if he ends up

going somewhere else, good luck to him. I think, like, I'll be honest, man, as a Leaf fan, and again, I see the argument for moving on from Kyle Dubas. But as a lease fan, oh, I'd kind of like him to go to Pittsburgh before that Ottawa job opens up. Sure. I do not like the idea of him. Put him in charge of that Ottawa team? Oh, that's yikes. Yep.

All right. The Calgary Flames, they go with Craig Conroy as their GM. He's been working in their front office for like 15 year, 14 years, something like that. Maybe 12, I don't know. But been there a while. They hired Dave Nones to kind of. Now, this is weird. I believe Dave Nones's title is like both president of hockey ops and assistant GM.

Oh, that's kind of weird. Yeah, I'm going to double check on that. But VP of Hockey Operations. and assistant GM. Okay. That's still weird to give them both of those. It's, you know, this is a first time GM in Craig Conroy. So, you know, maybe you say this is a guy, he's done it before in two different locations very badly.

But he can just kind of, you know, be the steady hand on the tilt. show them the ropes, that kind of stuff. And it's like, yeah, didn't he just do that with Brad Trill Living, who now we're all saying this is a guy, every team who's looking for a GM has to hire. Didn't he just do that for like more than a decade? Am I wrong about that? You know? But, you know, NHL teams are always looking for the guy with experience and all this kind of stuff. So I guess I get it, but I don't know. It just seems like a weird setup to me. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. It's, like more and more,

NHLGM is like being the CEO of a company. Like, you don't have to have been a CEO before, but you can't just hire, like, the super smartest guy in the mailroom to, and plop them down in the middle of managing that whole group. So, I mean, Craig Conner, at the one hand, this is the classic case of a team, like, hey, everyone, it's the former captain.

Remember, this guy, you loved him as a player, and now he's the GM. So, you know, everybody be nice to him. But also, like you said, he's been doing this forever. He's been learning on the job. He's not, as I like to say, he's not walking in off the golf course. He's done the work. Yeah.

He's ready. And I think it's, you know, if it wasn't him, then you would expect that he would have wanted to move on and go somewhere else, kind of the Scott Mellonby situation. So, I think it's the right hire. I think having It's always a little bit Like continuity is great

But it's always a little bit To have continuity when you've moved on From the last guy Because you're sort of like, what are we continuing? Like if it was If it wasn't working Should we have continuity? But you know, the flames have had some success

Not that long ago So yeah, I mean I think this was the higher We all expected. I don't have an issue with it we'll see what Dave knows. I mean, Dave Nowness might be, just be the classic guy

who's like a really good right-hand man, but not a guy you want running the show. Maybe it's as simple as that. Yeah, no, I don't, I said this on Twitter, I got a little bit of flack for it. No, on Twitter? No, from, well, I was going to say

it was from this guy, Grinke Grimowski was very mad at me for saying this, of like generally speaking when a team's like oh we hired a GM it's a guy who used to play for this team I'm like I don't know how this is going to work out and he was like you know whatever he was like Steve Eiserman yeah he was like oh Jim Rutherford played for the Penguins Joe Sackick Joe Sackett I think I think he did say Joe Sackick not Steve Eiserman Rob Blake you know like you can go down the list but you can also go down the list and go like

Okay, well, like multiple guys who played for the Oilers were the GM there. Kevin Lowe or Ron Hextall. Ron Hextall is a good example. I'm trying to think of all the examples, like the counter examples that I came up with. But there have been lots. I mean, if you expand it to coaches, then. Yeah, no. So I go even further.

But I'm always just like, I don't know, man. I like is this the is this the great idea that you're coming up with is like what if we just hired this guy hey there's a picture of him on the wall over here Joe New and Dyke was another example I came up with you know it's just like Brett Hall in Dallas as well sure it's just another like even if it's like 50 50 it's like I'd love to know what the full decision Garth Snow the Jim Benning played for the Canucks famously um like it's just an example of like is this like did you really think about this? Yeah. Or? It always feels like, you know,

yeah, you have the poster of this guy in your childhood bedroom. Right. We like him, right? So now let's just. You know what? If anybody out there had a Craig Conroy poster, more power to him.

I bet they did. He was the captain. Was he the captain? Oh, after again, no, was he? I think he was. I don't know that he was. was definitely had a there's no two ways about that but anyway

the other funny thing about this is uh and uh jerome again was expected to join the team in an advisory role it's like i mean i guess so but like also they're just going to like Craig Conner could be like what do you think jerome like just in a regular phone call and is that an advisory role you know how formalized is this who knows yeah that to me feels like as much as anything the like, yeah. That's a make-work job.

Come on, guys. We all love Jerome Gindler, right? You definitely have a poster of him. Craig Conroy was the captain for one year. Oh, look at that. The year before. Oh, sure. Okay.

I was thinking after, but. But, yeah. Well, I mean, hey, if Ginnler wants to start learning on the job, then this is where it begins. But, yeah. I mean, ultimately the flames had a succession plan in place, and now they've got to get a coach. Yep. And that's also the interesting thing in Toronto.

I do have written down here on the outline. Teams still without coaches. Calgary's on there, obviously. We kind of feel like Toronto might join that, but obviously... Toronto has to be. I would think that they're going to just wait until whoever the new GM is to bring in his guy. but other teams, Anaheim, Columbus, technically New Jersey, although I think last week Tom Fitzgerald said Lindy will be back

and it's just like not formalized yet. The Rangers and the Capitals. That's still a lot of teams, man. That's, you know. That's including, you know, New York and Toronto are both big jobs of contending teams and theoretically. There's been, you still hear Mike Babcock with the Blue Jack although that seems to be fading.

I was going to say, I feel like I saw something like last night or this morning that was like, that's not going to happen now. Yeah. The other one, and I guess you could have mentioned this with the Leafs as well, is the Joel Quenville and also Stan Bowman out there

as a GM candidate that neither one of which are eligible to be hired, although that could change in a meeting with Gary Bettman. I'll just say, the Leafs don't go in that direction. Wouldn't be my choice, that's for sure. No. But, you know, and again,

the Rangers being another big market that would, you know, well, I was going to say you assume like Joel Quenville isn't going to Columbus, but I guess at this point, if he wants to get back in the league at all, he might have to take what he can get. But, uh, you get this Leaf's assistant, Stephen Carberry, who's apparently like interviewing everywhere and, could be a favorite among the newer coaches if you're not going the recycled route.

Then you got who? Peter Laviolette kicking around, boost Boudreau, I guess. Yep. Who else? A few other guys. It doesn't feel like there's any real like A-plus candidates out there, but... No, I... Oh, the other one is Nashville, right?

Like, we still haven't heard what they're doing. Yeah, that's true. I don't know. Which maybe just means that, I mean, Barry Trott's taken over his GM, which is interesting. I don't know. A couple of quick news updates here. Jamie Ben will have a hearing. Sasha Barkov is skating with the Panthers for morning skate or whatever right now.

And the Dallas Stars have apologized to Vegas for the popcorn throwing. So, wow. Okay. Momentous stuff. Classy. Yep, that's right. Very classy by them. Yep.

So two last things here. We'll do, it looks like this whole arena vote thing in Arizona, it's going to be a problem for them. Even beyond, they don't maybe have a building to play in any. anytime beyond the next year or two here. Because Logan Coley didn't sign with them and then they were like, is this have to do with the arena vote?

And he's like, yep. I'm really surprised by that. That he would just come out and say it, at least. I don't know about you, but. Yeah, it was a little, like, I mean, he sort of phrased it as well. It was a factor, but, you know, and that he had been talking to,

did he say he'd been talking to Keller? Or was somebody else? I believe it was Keller. And Keller was like, yeah, don't rush it. But then Clayton Keller was like, no, man, my phone was hacked. That was... We didn't get that last week, right? No, since Clayton Keller's dad,

people didn't hear, was hacked. And rather than steal his credit card or, I don't know, try to sell laptops, they... The hackers did what they often do, which is release a bunch of ultra-specific tweets about a guy's son being unhappy with the coyote's arena deal. Now, see, I initially said I believe him only because in the tweet he referred to his own son as Keller. Okay.

But then someone said, no, he just meant to maybe tweet it out from his burner account. And it's like, oh, that actually makes a lot more sense than the thing I said. Yeah. As a guy who doesn't have a burner account, like, at all. like never had one. You know, I'm not, I'm not trying to juke the stats or anything like that, you know. It didn't even occur to me, but it makes perfect fucking sense, of course, that that would be. That could be good.

I don't know, but yeah, that's what, that's what just someone was like, yeah, it was his burner account, wasn't it? And I was like, hadn't thought about burners, yeah. But anyway, apparently, and this is again, from like, L. Elliot Friedman's like nine, I think it was 19 thoughts last night. And hey, you want to not have a good time is, don't make the mistake I just did. And Google 19 thoughts, because you're going to get a lot of stuff about COVID-19 thoughts. Oh, no. Oopsie.

But, yeah, anyway, I don't want to, I don't want to like misquote Elliot here or anything like that. so I will try to find it very quickly. But it was basically, Clayton Keller hasn't requested a trade, but has kind of put a timeline out there, if that makes sense. Okay. Of like...

He would be an interesting... He'd be a very interesting guy to be out there because he's not... He has not been at the superstar level, but he's been very good... has a contract that was maybe dicey for a while, but now looks fine. Okay, yeah, I'll just read from Elliot's thing. Clayton Keller gave Arizona a month or so to provide him with a direction about the future on and off the ice.

The coyotes were more competitive than expected, blah, blah, blah. Off the ice, who knows, it's all guesswork, and God knows if there's any way to figure it out in 45 days. To this point, Keller is not asking for a trade, but stay tuned. if he's available lying around the block, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it looks like we might be around the draft saying, well, Clayton Keller's available. I can't wait until this time next year when people are going,

yeah, but a Clayton Keller doesn't become available every year. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was awesome this year. I point a game player. He was very good this year. I do not put him anywhere in the, like, Kachuk Eichol. range.

No, sure. This is sort of your, it's not a buy low by any stretch, but if you feel like you can get in on somebody who might have another level to get to not, I mean, he's, he's old enough that he kind of probably is what he is, but he has been what he's been for a very bad coyotes team. Right. Surround him with some talent, who knows. Yep.

But we also know that the coyotes are not typically, uh, to, um, to, um, you're not. excited to move a player who has requested a trade. Now maybe that changes at the draft, depending on, you know, because they have a lot of like second and third round picks the next few years. I think they only have the Ottawa's pick this year, right? So it's nothing crazy loading up at the draft this year. So if they want to move Keller, now it seems like it would be the time to do it. He's good.

He's coming off. maybe not the best season you could ever expect out of him because he's like 24, 25 years old. But like his value's never been higher. Let's put it that way. Yeah. And, you know, seven million bucks for even a top six forward is reasonable.

Yeah. Not alone a guy who's potentially plays on your, potentially is your number one guy. Yep. So we'll see about that. The other thing that I did want to note is that there was a sports net story that Connecticut governor, Ned Lamont will be meeting with

or wants to have a meeting with Gary Bettman to move the coyotes back to Hartford. Well, not that they were in, you know what I mean. To bring a team back to Hartford in the guise of the coyotes. Boy, you want to talk about a bad arena. I've been in that arena this season. Yukon until they built their own rink in like January or whatever

played there for several years. That's not a good arena. It holds a decent number of people. I think it holds like 10 or 12,000. But like, maybe that works as a temporary home. That could not be a permanent home for the coyotes. It just couldn't happen. This is all I need is to have people like,

you know who holds the Hartford Whalers single season scoring record? It's a Timu Salani. That's right. Oh, God. I'm out. But yeah, I'll read the quote from Lamont here. This is a great hockey state and a great hockey town. It's evidenced by the passion we have for the whalers going back years, still one of the best-selling jerseys.

I think we can guarantee them a strong market right here and a government that's ready to come and be their partner. Now, that kind of is saying to me, we'll open the checkbook for a fucking rink. Yep. But this is the thing I always like to bring up. I think you'll enjoy this reference, Sean, because it is from 1995 or whatever. Okay. Yep. The Hartford Whalers people at this point, this is the fucking Denise show.

Get over it. You know, I need Phil Hartman calling the people of Connecticut and just being like, you got to give up on this. You're going to meet a nice girl. Yeah. Anytime I see this shit, I'm just like, we're still pretending the Whalers are a thing, huh? Look, man. Get over it.

You get one Hurricanes game a year, and that's it. Yeah. Maybe we just have one team become like the traveling vagabond. team that hits like Hartford, Quebec, just tour all the way around Atlanta. Everyone gets eight home games a year. Yeah, hey. Well, you know what? Another thing, Elliot reported that, boy, I'm just like quoting Elliot a lot this week.

But that guy should get his own podcast. No shit. But anyway, he mentioned that in the, the potentially upcoming NHL, NHLPA, what's the word I'm looking for? Like meetings, I don't even know if they're like technically meetings or just sit downs or what. But the idea might be advanced that for a temporary period of time in order to boost the salary cap coming into this season,

they might be willing to go to 84 games. Yay. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yay is correct. So just if that is a genuine offer, can we just put that in our back pocket the next time somebody says we should go to 10 minute overtime

and someone goes, oh, no, no, because that would be extra wear and tear on the players. If they're willing to go to 84 games, add two full extra games to everyone's schedule, I think we can stop pretending that playing an extra. two minutes of overtime every few weeks is going to be some sort of crushing deal breaker, please. Yeah. So, yeah, that'll be interesting.

Finally, well, okay, so I guess the reason I say that is for people who don't remember, in the 90s, there were a few seasons where they played 84 games, and were they both neutral-site games? Yeah. Yeah, there were. I don't remember if that was every year of the 84, but there was a time where each team played two neutral site games, one as a home game and one as an away game.

And they just kind of barnstormed around North America and played in some very weird places. But it was cool, but also it didn't. Like, it was neat to turn on the highlights, and it was like Blackhawks and Bruins. In Nova Scotia or whatever. Yeah, you're just like, what? Like in Idaho.

But they'd see their playing in front of like 4,000. fans. You're like, eh, I don't know about this. Yeah. So there you go. And then the one thing we, that's it for hockey talk this week. We'll put it that way. Everybody who doesn't want to hear us talk about Survivor? Well, I was going to say see you later. Enjoy the rest of your week, you know. But now we are going to talk about Survivor.

The finale is tonight. Final five. Final five. Who? Where yet? You've watched all season. First of all, thoughts on the season as a whole? It's been not my favorite season that I've watched.

I'll put it that way. It's been okay for me, I guess. There's just a lot of, like, personalities, I guess I would say that I didn't love. And I don't follow, like, the analytics enough to have, like, a real, to have a real idea of who's going to win. And I feel like the last few years or few seasons particularly, you've gone into the final going like, all right, this guy's been the best player, this guy's got a good,

and then it just ends up being like, oh, we had no idea. Like last year, I think we had this conversation. And we're like, well, the one thing we know is the weird old guy. he's not going to be a threat. And then he wins going away. So there is, if people haven't watched, was it fair to say that the final five is like three very memorable characters who've all kind of been working together and then two like miscellaneous.

And then Heidi and Lauren. NPCs, yeah. And I did say Lauren, like I think when we first talked about this, the, in the premiere, I said Lauren was my sleeper pick to win, but, you know, based on nothing other than vibes. So I can hold on to that, I guess. But like it's another one of these years where it's like there's a clear final three. You want to see them, you know, are they going to betray each other or whatever?

And you can just see it coming down to like Heidi wins. And you're like, oh, okay. Right. Where are you at on the two big personalities this year have been? yeah, yeah, guy called Jam Jam who wants to poop

in the ocean and Carolyn who is just like a living gift generator brought to life like just a human meme to me

to me she is like an all time Mount Rushmore survivor character yeah absolutely we are all in not that I've watched

every season but I've watched my house well I'm telling you like if you like having not watched every season or like maybe

somebody like this shows up every few years no we have never she is a phenomenal character. And also is like

apparently there is this huge online survivor community and they like play fake games and all this stuff and she's like one of the celebrities of that community.

So the fact that she's even on the show is hugely entertaining for those people let alone that she's potentially going to win, although I don't know. Um, I think right, obviously, without having seen any of the, of the finale, um, I think I, I would be surprised if she wins just because, I, I think that they were honing in on her a little bit in the last week, you know? Yeah.

Um, well, I'll, I'll go even further. Okay. As somebody who has watched just about every season of this show, and you, you, you. You talked about like the analytics. And if people don't know, it's like there's certain things people have noticed patterns on how the shows are edited and presented. I have never in my life seen an episode that more obviously telegraphed the ending than last week where they did an entire show that was a goodbye to Carolyn. Yes. Like the entire 60 minutes of just them flashing Carolyn's getting voted out on.

the screen. And then she didn't. Nope. Which suggests to me that, you know, the fact that, especially that she's such a popular, like, they're almost tailoring it to the online audience a little bit of like, we're going to subvert your expectations and fake you out on her. So it does make me hope that, because I'm openly rooting for her at this point, it does make me hope a little bit that maybe, like, it's, they're making her such a focal point that that almost always means that

that person won't win but maybe maybe they're going to find a way to do it but they they certainly seem to be setting up that she's going to be betrayed by her alliance. Yes. And go out at five because I think if she makes the final she wins.

Yeah, I the final's always interesting because you've got to like explain your game and she does not, she has not come across as a person who's going to be able to like really talk everybody through her logic at every step of the, you know what I mean?

No. No, but she does have that, like, she's already said it a few times where she's like, yeah, I'm like the crazy emotional person. Like, yeah, I just, but the guy that I worry about is, and I made this prediction of my kids, so let's see if it comes through, but I was like, every now and then you get the survivor character

who seems lovable and wonderful, and then when they get in front of the jury, you're like, oh, this person's actually kind of a jerk. And I feel like Jam Jam's head in that dream. Oh, I was going to say that about Carson. Carson could as well. It wouldn't shock me, but he's like, I don't know. I feel like he doesn't have his high height to fall from.

Sure. He's your pick to win? Yeah. Yeah. I think he's going to win it. Somebody pointed out somewhere, and I hadn't noticed this, but they said that they have continually all season showing him, with, and he's like the only character who wears his glasses, but with the fire reflected in his

glasses all the time. And they think that means that he's either going out in the fire challenge or that he'll win the fire challenge and that'll be like his million dollar win. Yeah. He would be a good winner. I agree. Good? I would like to see the nerds win. Yeah, especially because he, he's the one that even more than what you were saying about,

about Carolyn, he's the one that even more so is like, this guy's dead fucking serious about being a survivor player. Like, he's like, oh, yeah, I, I won the, like, drowning challenge by just sitting in my bath, or maybe that was somebody else, but. But he, he 3D printed all the puzzles. And so any time. And it worked. And it worked. He's just, like, completely destroyed everyone on puzzles. So.

So that's kind of why I think he's going to win is like his pitch. If he gets to the point where he can pitch, his pitch is very simple. I've dedicated my young life to being the survivor guy. I've worked with these people every step of the way. All of you have liked me, you know, I'm not rubbing anyone the wrong way. I'm playing an honest open game where I'm just insanely good at all the challenges. And, but it also wouldn't surprise me if he's like, I manipulated the following 50 things.

And you're like, because again, like, if you're, if you're dedicated enough to have a 3D printer and 3D print all the puzzles and just do them 50 times each and like be in your bathtub trying to half drown yourself, like, maybe you're just a psycho enough to pull this off. I think, I think that would be, I think he'd be a very worthy winner. He would absolutely be worthy. The thing that worries me for him is he's like 20. Yeah, and they never vote for young people. I think everybody else in the entire game was like, I think 27 was the next most of it.

Wow. And look, have you ever seen a 20-year-old get up and talk to grown-ups and not come across awful? Sure. So, yeah, I think Jam Jam could be the guy who gets up there and gets a little too moody and that I'm really crossed my finger for Carolyn. but I could see it being like Carson, Heidi, and Lauren, and then it's like just he wins or Heidi. Who knows? But it's been a good season.

Yeah. Yeah. And I will say also it's been a very good season and did provide a top five all-time moment, which, of course, was Danny intentionally farting on Jeff Probst during the challenge. That was excellent. Oh, I was going to say the guy breaking his fucking ankle or whatever, or is, Well, the guy falling off a mountain. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Popping his shoulder out and sticking. And also the guy splitting his head open. Oh, my God. That was this season. Jesus. Five minutes into the season. Apparently, I saw somewhere they're bringing that guy back.

Yes, I think you might have told me. And I hope they make him do the same thing. And he just, he just Brock Lesnar's himself again. Yep. That's right. Anyways, it's been a good season. I've enjoyed it. And I look forward to three months from now remembering like nothing.

other than three people from the entire season. Yeah. And that's it. That's it for the show. Sean, why don't you hit them with the plugs? Find me at the Athletic. Got a whole bunch of stuff. I've written a bunch about the Leafs.

I've written a bunch about the other 31 miscellaneous teams. I have my lessons from the final four post. I'll do at some point next week probably an all-disappointment team. I'll have my guide, my rooting guide to the final. I have my podcast with Ian Mendez. I'm also jumping on shortly, uh, podcast the lease report with,

uh, Myrtle and Jonas. Uh, I don't know what we're going to talk about. Probably not much. Yeah, there's not a lot going on for those guys. Uh,

and then for me, EPRinkside.com. Use the code. I love E.P. when you sign up. You get three months tacked on to the end of your annual membership. That code only worked for the annual memberships. And, uh,

now is the time to sign up for elite prospects because our draft guide is coming out next week. The preview is available now. I want to say it's, you know, just like the Connor Bedard breakdown. This is the kind of, maybe you won't get it quite as in-depth because I bet there were few players in the world watched more than Connor Bedard by our team this year. But in-depth breakdowns of all their strengths and weaknesses, quotes from people around the hockey world who are very familiar with this game. game reports for every time one of our scouts watched him. On and on you go. This will be, I think, probably north of a thousand pages.

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And so, yeah, patreon.com slash puck soup for that. Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting it and all that kind of stuff. And we'll talk to you next week. Bye, bye. Bye-bye.