Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - A closer look at Vikings head coaching candidates Byron Leftwich, Nate Hackett and Doug Pederson

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

Matthew Coller is joined by John Shipley of Jaguars Report to break down the coaching candidates who are being talked about for both teams. What does John like about the idea of Byron Leftwich? Does Doug Pederson have any red flags? Why is Nate Hackett's approach one that could meld well with the next quarterback of the Vikings? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TD Direct Investing offers live support, so whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here. And we've had a lot of really fun episodes breaking down the Mike Zimmer era. But folks, we need to move on. We need to move to the next head coach. Now I I'd like to go through GM candidates and things, but here's the problem is it's really hard to guess what somebody is going to

be like if they were a director of player personnel. So focusing on the coaching element is, is probably a little bit easier because we have histories on those guys. And to do that, joining me is John Shipley, not the Twin Cities John Shipley, but the John Shipley who covers the Jacksonville Jaguars for Jaguar Report featured at si.com. John, first of all, it's great to get back with you. We haven't talked in some time. Let me think, when was the last time that we would have talked? Maybe randomly but what was there must have been a jaguars vikings game was it a preseason game i i think it was a preseason game and if not that it was talking about the ngakwe trade that ended up not mattering whatsoever ah oh the ngakwe trade hey so what did the jaguars do with the draft pick that the Vikings gave them?

Yeah, they took Walker Little. Oh, okay. So Walker Little. And to his credit, he barely played this year because they're just such a weird franchise that they draft a left tackle the same year they franchised that guy. But once he did play, he legitimately looked like a starting NFL left tackle. So, I mean, as badly as I think they do still missing Gawkway, legitimately looked like you know like a starting NFL left tackle so I mean as badly as I think they do still miss Ngakwe I think you know you can say they won that one well the Vikings missed Ngakwe too because they traded him away now he's going to be in the

playoffs with the Raiders along with the kicker that the Vikings cut in week two of 2018 so it's always fun to tie the tangled webs together but i was curious of what player to watch for to eventually circle back and say hey remember the ingokwe trade walker little's at all pro or what you know what um i've learned over the last five years of uh how to think like vikings fans think and uh i'm sure that they wanted to know so any anyway well, I'll tell you what I've been doing on the show as it pertains to the Vikings coaching opening, and that's why we're getting together because, A, I think your work is great and I enjoy having you on the show, but, B, we're both looking at the same guys,

basically, except for Bill O'Brien. You can keep that over there. And we are the only market that's looking at Bill O'Brien. Classic. And maybe at the end, I want you to tell some Urban Meyer stories because I'm sure it was even crazier from the inside than it was the outside.

But, you know, Byron Leftwich is the guy that I have been talking about as number one on my list. That doesn't mean he's the only guy. And if they don't hire him, I'm going to flip the computer over and never talk about the team again but uh I'll give you the case that I've been making for Byron Leftwich and you tell me your reaction he's a former Jaguar and known well down there uh I think that you know

Bruce Arians picking him to run their offense with Tom Brady is impressive and I think that his character I know that everybody likes to share the video of him with the broken ankle getting carried by his offensive lineman, but he also wasn't that good of a quarterback and played for a bunch of teams and stuck around in the league and then immediately is put into the league as a quarterback's coach and then quickly bumped up to be an offensive coordinator. I think it just speaks to his character. And then I think that if you're the Vikings, you want someone just like the Jaguars who knows how to handle people because it's been a little bit of a problem here and a huge problem there. So you tell me what your perspective is on Byron Lefkowitz. Yeah, no, I think you really hit the nail on the head.

To me, when you're looking at the qualifications for a head coach, I, obviously the work he's done as a coordinator is, you know, right up there, but I think you have to look at, you know, really who they are as a leader. And I think you look at anything anybody in Tampa has said about Byron Lefkowitz, you know, whether it's players, coaches, he, he, it just seems like he wanted the more, you know, well-respected guys who can really connect with players. And yeah, it's not surprising considering he wasn't a player, you know, that long ago, you know, a little over a decade ago, he's still a young guy and you can see kind of sees the game like a player. But I mean, if, if you can bridge a relationship between Bruce Arians and Tom Brady and make it cohesive to me, you have great people skills. Cause I can't think of two more difficult guys, you know, in the NFL, other than, you know, Mike Zimmer, you know,

like that's just two personalities that it's not only hard to measure those personalities, but their philosophies are completely different, you know, between Brady and Arians and Lefkowitz has been able to really marriage their philosophies, you know, completely and cohesively. And I really think that he doesn't get enough credit for Tampa Bay's offensive success. I know, you know, any team that has Tom Brady and has those weapons is going to look good. But I mean, this is a case where even Arians, you know, last year said, you know, I think me and Brady get too much credit and Byron doesn't

get enough. So I think that's one, you know, he's obviously a leader. I think, you know, you look at guys like Adair Okunbowale, you know, he played for Tampa for a year under Lefkowitz. He's in Jacksonville now. I asked him a couple weeks ago his thoughts on Lefwich, and he raved about him, you know, just, you know, how he connects with players. LaShawn McCoy, after he retired, talked about how impressed he was with Lefwich kind of wanting to help guys

reach their incentives late in the season. He said Lefwich was, like, perfectly in tune with what guys need to reach, and he, like, straight up told guys, okay, you know, these are the players we're going to run to help you get that. And McCoy said that's the first time he's ever seen a coach do that. So I really think, you know, he's a top notch leader. And the funny thing is a lot of people, you know, see him in Jacksonville, you know, kind of tied in this coaching search.

And for the record, just from the conversations I've had, I do think he is the favorite to be the Jaguars hire right now. The funny thing is, I really don't think it'd be like a nostalgic type of hire because this is a guy who only lasted a few years in Jacksonville. You know, he's considered, you know, a draft a bust in Jacksonville. And a lot of people won't remember it because, you know, it was 2003 to 2006. But he wasn't exactly treated fairly in Jacksonville, you know, especially about a fan base. And to me,

that says more about even more about his leadership and his character that he is so willing to, you know, kind of put that aside and, you know, kind of, you know, put, you know, let bygones be bygones. And, you know, I mean, a first round pick being cut before his fourth year begins, you know, I personally would have some animosity, but it just doesn't seem like he's that kind of guy yeah and um you know to your point uh on that you look at somebody like gary kubiak i think of the number of people who have a similar background a similar demeanor to byron leftwich and kellen moore goes for this too because both of them are backup

quarterbacks and uh you know i guess gary kubiak got a little more chance to play but then kellen moore uh but not not a ton and they were both backup quarterbacks they both quickly transitioned into coaching they both quickly had success transitioned into coaching and frank reich is this way too and i know that they melted down in the last game which what uh but but f, they've been a really good and competent franchise with Frank Reich running them. And, you know, he didn't trade for Carson Wentz himself. I think, like, a big thing is, too, is the fact that he is so close with the Arians.

The reason Byron's been able to rise in the coaching ranks the way he has, not only because of how in tune he is with players and how good of a coach he is, he impressed Arians way back when he was a Steelers backup quarterback. That's why Arians even hired him to begin with in Arizona. Arians has said before that Byron's one of the smartest, if not the smartest quarterbacks he's ever coached. So if you can impress a guy enough as a backup, like a big Ben's backup who never plays in theed so if you can impress a guy enough you know as a backup like a big ben's backup who you know never plays in the game if you can impress your coordinator that much where you know 10 years later he's like i need this guy on my coaching staff and i i just i think that speaks volumes and i know you know people look at his resume and you know his kind

of short short time as a coach in the nfl To me, that's actually, I think a positive, you know, that he's been that Bruce Arians, you know, a guy who's as demanding as he is, has been so willing to put more and more on his plate as time has gone on. And, you know, he's been able to shoulder it. Right. Yeah. I think that going from a QB coach pretty quickly to the offensive coordinator for Tom Brady speaks more about him. It's kind of like how quickly Sean McVay became the offensive coordinator in Washington and then got a head coaching position and then quickly took off that offense and that organization. You're trying to look for it. Not like the next McVay became sort of a meme, but like you're, you're always looking for the people who have sort of

these similar traits. And also my big thing too, is what are the red flags? And I don't know that there are red flags with Byron Leftwich. I know that there were red flags with Joe Judge. I knew that there were one or two tiny little Urban Meyer things. I just like, you know, you gotta search real deep on the internet to find things that may have been overlooked with the Jaguars and Urban Meyer. But I actually think with these coaching hires, it's much more about looking for the red flags and the potential pitfalls than it even is saying, well, this guy is better than that guy. Because everything we just said about Byron Lefkowitz also applies to Kellen Moore, which also applies outside of the player part to Nate Hackett, who has worked his way up and things like that. And it applies to Eric B enemy and it

applies to Brian Dable. But I think that the big thing here is how does your coach meld with your quarterback? And, and, and all of these guys have done it brilliantly, I think. And that's what you want to see. And whether Kirk is going to be the quarterback or not, I tend to think not long-term. It's the same thing with Jacksonville. You're getting Trevor Lawrence. How you meld with Trevor Lawrence, how you meld with the next quarterback that is with the Vikings,

this is the game, folks. It's not like, oh, well, he had Rodgers. Well, he had Mahomes. Well, he had whatever. That's the game. And if you can't like, oh, well, he had Rodgers. Well, he had Mahomes. Well, he had whatever. That's the game. And if you can't work with that guy and get everything out of him, then you're probably not going to be good at your job. Yeah, exactly.

And the way I look at it is every offense coordinator Tom Brady has had, you look at the list of them, do you want to hire all those guys as head coaches? You're not hiring him just because, okay, he's called plays for a good, you know, Tom Brady offense. But I mean, the, the way I look at it, especially when it comes to a guy like left, which is, you know, looking at what he did kind of before Brady, you know, I know just, you know, one year of Tampa Bay's coordinator without Brady, but I mean, Jameis Winston that year, you know, he, he gets the memes, you know,

the 30, 30 memes, I mean, it picks you through, but when he wasn't throwing it to the other team, that was one of the most explosive passing offenses that the league has seen in the last couple years, you know. I know, you know, they had weapons galore, but it's hard for me to rationalize that a guy who can get 5,000 yards, 30 touchdowns out of Jameis Winston, and then can, you know, change the offense completely to Tom, you know, to Tom Brady's

strengths and then see the offense get even better. It's hard for me to think that guy, you know, doesn't know what he's doing. And that, you know, speaks to your point, you know, what can you do with the quarterback that you have? You know, Nathaniel Hackett, you know, his track record as a play caller, you know, since, you know, he doesn't call plays in Green Bay, his track record as a play caller is basically restricted to his time with E.J. Emanuel and Blake Bortles. But he's the only guy in NFL history who's ever gotten a confident play out of Blake Bortles. So and, you know, he did that by, you know, really changing the offense completely to the offensive strengths. You know, they were a run, run, play action offense that entire year because, you know, he knew what Blake Bortles could and couldn't do.

So I think you're exactly right. I think the important thing is not just how much a coach can, you know, produce for that given quarterback, but how do they look with different quarterbacks? You know, do they really, you know, mesh their offense with their, you know, with their guy? Because, you know, guys, one guy, you know, we both covered, we both have covered John DeFilippo. He's a guy who that was my biggest critique of him in Jacksonville. He tried to run the Nick Foles offense with Gardner Minshew, and those are two guys who couldn't be more different. Yeah, no, the John DeFilippo thing, we've sort of pointed to it with Mike Zimmer

as one of the ills of Mike Zimmer's era was the John DeFilippo firing, but that is not to excuse John DeF Filippo, who it was kind of like this, this is my offense. Here's how you're going to run it. That's it. And then he was one of those guys that I know every offense that's ever been created in NFL history. And, you know, right. Well, you know, here's the thing. The greatest chess players in the world. I have this weird hobby of watching grandmasters play chess because they're so good that it freaks me out and I just keep watching. But one of the things is that they usually play a couple of different strategies, like

a handful, like the greatest players in the world have their five strategies they play. They know the other ones, but they they like their what they play. And I think that the best offensive coordinators are adaptive to what the other ones but they they like their what they play and i think that the best offensive coordinators are adaptive to what the other team is doing and what their players need but i don't think that trying to know like matt nagy was like this trying to know 5 000 plays and trying to know every single offense that's ever been played in nfl history to just like pump up yourself about your own ego and whatever else. I don't think that that's the way to go. And so I kind of like, even with Matt LaFleur and what

they've done with Aaron Rodgers, where they took this play action, bootleg, run the football and play off of it. That is used by Shanahan used by McVay. And then they've melded it with Aaron Rodgers. And I think we've even seen that in Los Angeles, or at least they tried with Stafford, but he's still Matt Stafford. He still throws picks, baby. He's always going to do it and take bad sacks. But they did the same thing where they changed their offense. It's still McVay, and it's still their offense, but they tweaked it.

And I think that that's what you're looking for in a head coach is we're going to have the scheme that we play that for in a head coach is we're going to have, you know, the scheme that we play that we know works, and then we're going to move parts around. So let's say you have Stefan Diggs and you just throw it to him all the time. Like that maybe would be a good idea. And, but I'm interested actually, just because Trevor Lawrence is the number one pick, how you think an offense needs to be melded to him. Because with, with the Vikings, I don't think that Kirk Cousins is here for the next five years so they're going to pick their guy and who they think

fits whether it's this year or next year to a strategy but Trevor Lawrence is a different situation here where you're expected as the coach to come in and get the most out of the number one pick absolutely and I think you know you can look at some of Lawrence's, you know, best performances in 2021. And, you know, and obviously looking at numbers, there weren't that many that were overly impressive just production wise. But if you just look at his best games, you can see, you know, kind of what he's best at, you know, his game against the Bengals on Thursday night football game in London against the Dolphins and then week 18 against the Colts and all those games. They moved him out of the pocket. You know, they let him use his athleticism, you know, to create plays inside and outside the structure. Lots of play action.

And, you know, they let him test the waters. You know, the Jaguars, their biggest issue on offense was, you know, basically every guy they had who ran better than the 4'6", at one point or another, had a season-ending injury. And even despite that, though, Bortle – sorry, Fruity and Slip. Yeah. Lawrence was able, you know, to really still test the waters deep. You know, he kind of turned LeCron Treadwell and, you know,

another guy you know well into a deep threat by the end of the year to the point where he had, I think, six or seven games in a row with, you know, over 50 receiving yards and at least one catch of 20 yards, which for a guy who was on the practice squad for half the year to turn him into your kind of de facto deep threat, I think that kind of says what Lawrence's strengths are. So I think just an aggressive offense that you're not going to ask him to be Mac Jones and for everything to be quick game and timing

and stuff like that. He can do all that, but if you want to get the absolute most out of him and his arm talent, I think for Lawrence you're looking at an offense that is similar to what Tampa Bay ran kind of with Winston, that kind of, okay, let's line up, let's throw it deep. There are going to be some mistakes, but the big plays can't offset it. So I think just recognizing that he's not a, you know, traditional, you know, kind of drop back, let me, you know, throw it timing routes, quick game, and just accept that,

you know, he's a gunslinger, you know, he's really is kind of a yellow ball kind of guy, you know, he's, he's, he's gonna throw it deep, he's gonna make some risky throws. And I think just accepting that and trying not to make him a quarterback he's not, I think is really the way to go for any coach. And you mentioned LaFleur, and I think he's actually a perfect example of what a head coach needs to do. Because I think when you look at him in Green Bay, I don't think the thing that impresses you the most is his play calling or scheme, which obviously it's super impressive. I think what impresses the most is how he's been able to marriage his philosophy with Aaron Rodgers, who is another guy who isn't the easiest guy, you know, historically to work with. And the fact that, you know, after three years, it seems like him and Roger are just, you

know, perfectly in sync. Like if you can build your offense to the point where you can keep that guy happy, a guy who seemingly is almost never happy, then I think, you know, you're doing something right. And I think that's what a head coach has to do. Folks, we've got an even better offer to tell you about from SodaStick. If you use the promo code PURPLEINSIDER, one word, you can get 15% off your purchase.

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Plus, the hockey and basketball teams are both actually exciting this year and soda stick has you covered there as well go to soda stick that.com that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k.com and use the code purple insider for 15 off yeah i totally agree with you and also uh let me circle back to the laquan treadwell thing that tells you exactly why it's always been my feeling to ignore all rookie quarterback results because they just lie to you um i mean jared goff is a good example of this where i mean that team in los angeles that he had with Jeff Fisher his first year is just a horror show.

It's so bad. Right, right. Yeah, it's that bad. And then, you know, the next year, yes, McVay comes there and he gets all the credit, but also so does Robert Woods, Sammy Watkins, Andrew Whitworth. Like, they had all this money to spend and they built around him so well. And I'm not saying that jared goff is some sort of great quarterback but like you saw like his he advanced the next year became a much better

player they put all the things around him and so that leads to my next question is so of course i'm not saying it at all that you know trevor lawrence anything i don't know we'll see but how attractive is this job though versus say the vikings job because i've seen this debate sort of out there like hey you want to take over the number one draft pick uh i don't know your cap situation but i'm assuming it's pretty good with a rookie quarterback uh and you have some playmakers that will come back from injury travis etn and you have marvin jones who is a really good player Vikings fans know that but you know you also have time too yeah I think that uh with Vikings fans are going to expect the

team to be good or at least decent right away I think with the Jaguars if you win seven or eight games next year and you're just a competent football team and you look like you're on the rise then everyone's going to say look look at those Jaguars. What a great job their coach did, Coach of the Year. Yeah, you win seven games in Jacksonville, and fans are building you a statue like Doug Peterson has in Philadelphia. They are just so hungry for even an average football team. I think it is two franchises on different trajectories.

I think you're absolutely right. If you're hired by Minnesota, I think you're definitely going to be expected to win, you know, kind of quicker and, you know, more immediately because Minnesota isn't a team that, you know, has been, you know, a perennial loser and they just got sick of losing and fired Zimmer, you know, they fired Zimmer, you know, obviously, you know, for a lot of reasons, but also because, you know,

they couldn't get over the hump from being, you know, an okay team to a really good team. And as opposed to Jacksonville, they would love to be an okay team, you know, you know, for once, you know, they need to go from, you know, laughing stock of the NFL to average first before they can even think about after that. So I do think if you're a coach, you're, you know, looking at the two situations. I think both are really appealing. Me personally, if I'm a coach, I'm more interested in Minnesota right now simply because until Trent Baalke is out of the Jaguars front office, which there's still – it's not a sure thing that he's going to stay.

The tides have actually shifted away from him staying in recent days. I just think if you're a coach and you just even see him in the interview room, that's, that to me is a turnoff, you know, you know, for all the appealing things, you know, about Trevor Lawrence, to which Trevor Lawrence is still held in high regard, you know, in, you know, coaching circles, you know, he's still a guy that coaches are really excited, you know, to work with. They, they kind of see Urban Meyer kind of, you know, what the hell are you doing to, you know, you work with. They kind of see Urban Meyer kind of, you know, what the hell are you doing?

You know, you wasted an entire year of this guy. But I think if you're a coach, you see, you know, in Minnesota, you know, Kirk Cousins, obviously, for all of his flaws, you know, he's still at least, at the very least, somewhat competent, you know, a serviceable quarterback. You know, he's not one of the worst quarterbacks in the league. And then, you know, you have playmakers. You know, you have Dalvin Cook.

You have Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, you know, the, the, if you put like together the 10 best players between the Vikings and the Jaguars rosters, probably eight or nine of them are going to be Minnesota Vikings players. You know, that's just the state of the two, two, two teams. So I would say Minnesota is probably more appealing. I honestly think Minnesota is arguably the most appealing job, you know, this cycle. I think if the Jaguars had fired Balky like they should have at the conclusion of the regular season, that job would be up there.

But for now, I think if you're a coach like Lefkowitz, who probably needs a little bit of time and, you know, maybe could benefit from not having the highest expectations right away, I think Jacksonville might make more sense for you in that instance than a place like Minnesota. and maybe could benefit from not having the highest expectations right away, I think Jacksonville might make more sense for you in that instance in a place like Minnesota. But I think in most cases, if you're a coach who, say you're a guy like Eric Bien-Aimé who's been ready to go for a few years now, I think Minnesota's the perfect job.

You can get in there and get going right away. And I think you can decide what you want as your approach. Like, do you want to try to, and I think that this would be very unpopular, but do you want to extend cousins and then give your shot at building around him? Or do you want to play it out for a year and do the Alex Smith thing? Or do you want to just draft quarterback and move on quickly and try to do kind of a Mac Jones in New England where you're competitive with a rookie quarterback. It doesn't happen all the time, but it's not impossible as they have shown. If you draft someone who is a mature quarterback right away and they could step

in. And I also just, you know, I've had trouble with this and I'm sure get into it during draft season, which is upon us, not the rest of the league is preparing for playoff games. But, you know, the whole, well, it's not a good quarterback draft and everything else. Like, I don't know, tell that to the 2017 draft. So, which I'm sure you remember well. It's like, oh, you know, this Mahomes is footwork. And like, yeah. No, no, yeah, no.

I remember like, not all, but I remember a large section of Jaguars fans being happy that Houston took Deshaun Watson. And at the time, I was like, what the hell is wrong with you guys? You shouldn't be happy about that. Right, right. Well, you know, I always like to follow the winding road of takes, like of opinions and sort of what you thought. What a winding road that one is.

But now I guess it's fine if you're Jacksonville. Yeah, it ended up working out. I did a pros and cons to Bill O'Brien article the other day, and every time I typed Watson, I was like, how do I make it sound like, okay, this guy was a good quarterback without making it sound like, okay, go to Sean Watson, you know? Yeah, right, right, right. Well, I think he'll eventually be back in the league, but that's going to be very uncomfortable for however that works out. I did. I'm glad you brought up Doug Peterson because it almost slipped my mind to ask you about Doug Peterson, which you wrote about. And that's one that I would put myself on the fence because, you know, I think that Doug Peterson winning a Super Bowl is pretty hard to take away from the man when he did it with Nick Foles.

There's also a lot of things that have to go right with Super Bowls for anybody. You've got to have Julio Jones drop a ball in the end zone. You've got to have Philly special work, all those different things to win that Super Bowl. But to take a young quarterback, and Carson Wentz in his second year, to the number one seed and then be able to take a young quarterback and Carson Wentz in his second year to the number one seed, and then be able to have a roster and scheme that was strong enough to beat a

really good Vikings defense, beat the tar out of a great Vikings defense and then beat Tom Brady in the Superbowl. I mean, it's hard to say like, nah, I don't want that man, right?

Like give me somebody else, but it's almost like the, the quarterback backup quarterback thing. Maybe this was more back in the day where, like, fans always loved the backup quarterback and thought he should play. I'll put it for younger Vikings fans. It's the right guard where you always think the backup right guard is better than the current right guard.

And it's sort of that way with Peterson where you're like, well, he doesn't have flaws. It was kind of a mess at the end um you know is is a left which better is a hack it going to be better because we haven't seen them yet so when you haven't seen somebody your impression of them is usually the best possible scenario less than maybe the most likely or the worst yeah good point I mean if you're asking people for their opinion on Doug Peterson as a coach entering the 2020 season, you know, before Wentz, you know, looked like the worst quarterback in the NFL. It's dramatically different than, you know, probably what it is now, just because the last thing we saw from Peterson was, you know, that 4-11-1 season where Wentz, you know, legitimately looked like the worst starting quarterback in the NFL. I can personally say I was somebody who kind of, you know, held Wentz's performance that year against Peterson.

You know, it's hard to couple it with the fact that, you know, he was the same guy who developed Wentz enough to where he looked like an MVP caliber quarterback in 2017. And then he was able to change the offense enough to, you know, Nick Foles, who was a much different quarterback, and to kind of make it work with him. But to me, it was just hard to, you know, kind of settle with the fact that, okay, this is the last time we saw Peterson, you know, his quarterbacks and his offense looked terrible, but I, and it's going to maybe sound like a bit of a galaxy brain take.

I honestly think Wentz looking as bad as he did to end this past season reflects better on Doug Peterson as a coach. Because it tells me more that, OK, Wentz in 2020, the year that got Peterson fired, maybe that was just Carson Wentz just being Carson Wentz. Because he just did it in Indianapolis with Frank Reich, a coach who a lot of people tried to give credit for, you know, that equal Super Bowl run too. So if he's going to do that with Frank Reich in an offense that's completely tailored to him, it's hard for me to hold it as much against Doug Peterson. And I do think, you know, like you said, a thing that, you know, working against Peterson is the fact that, you know, we've seen him as a head coach before and, you know, he's been fired. But, you know, he's also a guy who, if you're a team who, you know, I know a lot of fans, especially have this mindset of, you know, they want proven head coaches, you know, he's also a guy who if you're a team who, you know, I know a lot of fans especially have this mindset of, you know, they want proven head coaches. You know, first time head coaches are, you know, sometimes a bit risky, even though every successful coach in NFL history has been, you know, a first time head coach at one point.

But I think if you want to hire a guy with experience, I think Peterson is the guy this cycle. Just because his quarterback background, he's been a starting quarterback. He's been a backup quarterback. He's been a practice squad quarterback. He knows what it looks like from all those different perspectives. He is one of the few offensive coordinators in Kansas City who called plays under Andy Reid. Normally, Reid takes those responsibilities. Peterson had them in 2015, and they were a terrific offense. And he's called plays for a bunch of different quarterbacks, from Alex Smith to Wentz to Foles to Jalen Hurts. And to me, just as somebody who had to cover Nick Foles for a cup of coffee,

if you can get a serviceable play out of Nick Foles, I think you're doing something right. Because I don't think there's a bigger fool's gold at the quarterback position of this generation. So I think there's a lot working against Peterson in the fact that, okay, he lost a power struggle. So, you know, you have to couple it with that. You know, how would he really mesh with the front office?

And the fact that his staffing hires, you know, as he lost guys like Frank Reich, as he lost Dave Filippo, his staff, you know, he wasn't really able to reload as much as, as well as you would like to see from a coach. But I think at the end of the day, if you're, if you want to hire a coach with experience, he's the guy that cycle. Yeah, I agree. And all these things are difficult because when you coach for multiple years,

drama is inevitable. And so what we have to judge is like how much drama is red flag drama. Like, you know, Adam Gase supposedly screaming at his owner, I know more football than you when he was in Miami. And then the Jets hire him. You're like, is that going to work? Like at Adam Gase, when they lost to the vikings after the game mike zimmer was like yeah they just didn't seem to like scheme or anything it was like uh i don't know that i'm giving that guy a five-year contract after another coach says it doesn't look like your team's

against us after playing him twice a year too right is yeah this is the guy i'm really afraid of that that kind of thing so with peterson like well uh okay you lost you did lose a power struggle clearly uh peterson felt like his voice wasn't heard with the front office of the eagles um but there's also the part of it that whoever the vikings hire and maybe it will be this way in Jacksonville as well. We'll see. We'll also be hiring the general manager and pairing them together from the very start, which, which I think kind of just has to happen a lot of the time where these, the Brandon bean and the Sean McDermott are just two peas in the pod.

They're making all the decisions and they've got their quarterback and that's how they're going forward and everybody else can be replaced but these three they're the ones that are sort of the triumvirate here with with Zimmer Spielman and Cousins we had I mean three kids who couldn't be in the same room together at the end and that you just you just can't have that uh you need alignment yeah exactly so I wanted to ask you about the urban meyer thing um because now also you and i have something in common we both covered doug marone as well um so actually let's talk about that before we get to the urban meyer thing doug marone was hilarious in buffalo

because he came in like a college coach even though he had been an nfl offensive coordinator before and but he came in sort of like a college coach with like very rah rah buffalo yeah great to be here his press conferences were super energetic which is probably making you go like what but you know he has these weird press conferences and then he didn't win right away as one does and all of a sudden it just turned so then he wouldn't answer any questions for years. And people in the organization got upset with him. And it was similar to the Zimmer stuff where the culture wasn't very good. And he was being mean to the entertainment side of the team and things like that. It was just, it got to be completely crazy.

And then he just quit on New Year's Day. And EJ Manuel tweeted out, happy new year. The minute after it came out year the minute after it came out the minute after it came out that doug marone was quitting he tweeted happy new year and that that was my favorite doug marone yeah no no and when i hear you know like you we've had the talk before when you just got doug marone i'm like that's the same doug marone doesn't because Marone. I can't imagine Doug Marone being rah-rah. Just the guy I saw in Jacksonville. I remember Cassius Marsh did an interview after he was with Jacksonville for maybe't think it was with Pat McAfee, but it was with the former player. And he was talking about, you know, a coach at my last stop, you know, obviously Jacksonville, he was talking about how this was the most boring coach I've, I've ever played for. He,

he couldn't motivate anybody. He made us all fall asleep when he tried to motivate us. And then he goes, well, this guy was a former offensive lineman. So I'm like, you can just say it was Doug Marone, dude. we we'd all get it and marone definitely in his time you know it seemed like jacksonville really aged him you know because i mean he went through you know uh obviously that you know 2017 was you know a fantastic season but after that it was you know 2018 was full of injuries you know the quarterback ended up turning back into a pumpkin he had to fire a He had to fire a close friend and confidant, Nate Hackett, something that I still believe he didn't want to do but kind of felt like he had to do.

And then 2019, you had the Tom Coughlin drama, the Jalen Ramsey drama, the Yannick Ngakwe drama, and then 2020, you lose 15 straight games. By the end of it, he looked like a guy who had just come home from war. He just looked exasperated by the end of it you know he looked like a guy who had you know just come home for more you know he he just looked exasperated by the end of it so I I I do think Marone in a way benefited from his time in Jacksonville because it almost kind of rehabbed his image to the point where people were like wow I feel bad for you know Doug Marone that he has to deal with all this but I think in different circumstances it probably wouldn't read like that at all yeah he was uh really i've you could say fiery but i think that he treated players like a

college coach would because he had come from syracuse and that just didn't go very well like at one point in training camp like imagine this happened you've covered training camps so you're out there and just watch you know standing around whatever. And the coach and a player are screaming at each other, the head coach, which you would just rarely see. And Jerry Hughes screamed at Doug Marone about something. And Marone says, you don't have to be here or something. And it was like, Jerry Hughes has a contract, so he does have to be here.

That is actually how it works in the NFL. And then shortly after that the bills signed hughes to a huge contract extension and he's been a great player for them like yeah that's not how that works like not in college where you could just cut a guy because you feel like it and uh there was another time where uh i was i was comparing marone on the radio to mark jackson in a golden state where i said you know i think the radio to Mark Jackson in Golden State, where I said, you know, I think the guy's probably a decent coach, but everybody can't stand him.

And he was listening. And so then we got a very interesting phone call into the station from the, what was he at the time, the president of the team, who then ended up leaving under some very not so great circumstances for an affair within the organization. So what a time it was back then. All right. Give me give me your top one or two Urban Meyer stories that that aren't the ones that everyone's heard about being in the bar with the coeds or whatever. I think one of the big ones would be, you know, a lot of people don't know this, but, you know, in March leading up to free agency, you know, there were, you know, a lot of, you know, talk and speculation of Urban Meyer thought free agents would sign with Jacksonville for, you know, I was you know, I'm a legendary college coach. Guys will take less money to play in Jacksonville because of me.

And that was a genuine thought that he had and that he expressed, you know, to the rest of the organization that, you know, people are going to want to flock to Jacksonville, you know, to play for me. They'll take less money. We don't have to, you know, pay guys, you know, offer guys as much money. And then you look up and, oh, they whiff on Matthew Judon. They whiff on Hunter Henry. They whiff on Johnnie Smith. Turns out in the NFL, these guys don't give a damn if you're Urban Meyer, you know, specifically if you're Urban Meyer, they just want to be paid. So I think that was one of the big things. The guy just straight up did not understand the nature of professional football. You know, he didn't he didn't understand that, you know. Yeah. You know, these guys, you know, they do love football, but they're not they're not under your thumb completely. You know, they have other things in their life.

You know, their life isn't football, football, football. You know, they have football, but, you know, they also have the contract. You know, they have their families. They have interests outside of football. You know, for a lot of for a lot of guys you know the nfo is a job you know like it's just it's just something i think meyer never understood and the fact that you know he would go around telling people that i'm urban meyer people will you know take less money to play for me is still to this day something that completely baffles me and it it i remember when I heard it in March that's when I was like okay maybe maybe this isn't going maybe this isn't gonna work you know and you know of course they

ended up having a free agent class where they either overpaid a ton of role players or you know they signed guys like uh Chris Manhurts and Philip Dorsett Jahawar guys who you know no disrespect to those guys but they didn't do guys, but they didn't do anything. You know, they didn't do anything at all. You know, I mean, those are the guys you're going to get when your two voices are one, a guy who doesn't understand how the NFL works. And then two, a guy like Trent Baalke, who is allergic to spending money that isn't his, which is a different conversation for a different day. And then I would say the other one is this is one that a lot of Jacksonville fans noticed. But he genuinely when it came to names of players who weren't Trevor Lawrence or James Robinson, he called Adam Gatsas after after they beat the Bills. You know, the biggest win of his tenure. They beat the Bills. Adam Gatsas, you know, one of their he wasn't a starter but he was like the first guy he's the first guy up in their defensive line rotation so you know he plays you know probably close to 50 50 of this defensive snaps a game called him he was like yeah it was a great

defensive game led by alex clancis and then he just kept going alex uh and he was trying to remember finally a media member had to go adam gotsisossett. And he goes, Adam Gossett. I remember sitting there. I was in front of him. Obviously, a few yards back, but I was in front of him. I remember when he said Alex, I'm like, that's not an Alex on this entire team. He would call the Arizona Cardinals the Phoenix Cardinals to the point where he got mocked for it enough that he tried to stop himself. And every time he would say Phoenix Cardinals, he'd go, I mean Arizona Cardinals. And he also, before week one, last one,

before week one when they were playing the Houston Texans, somebody asked him about, okay, who on the Texans offense stands out to you? And Meyer was a guy who he mostly paid attention to the Jaguars offense. He really didn't do anything with the defense at all. He kind of let them do their thing, which is why the defensive side of the ball had much less drama than the offense. You know, funny how that works,

but he was asked about guys on Houston's offense and he mentioned Joe Mixon and then goes, Oh, sorry. I was looking ahead to Cincinnati. They played the Bengals like a monthly Cincinnati, the B side ahead to Cincinnati. They played the Bengals like a month later. I'm on the Cincinnati, the B-side version of I'm on the Cincinnati. Exactly. Before the year even starts, it's like, yeah, Joe Mixon's a good back. And he goes, oh, wait, no, he's the Bengals. I was watching the Bengals earlier.

And I was like, you were not watching the Bengals at any point. Oh, my gosh. That is incredible. I mean, the thing about Zimmer is that he would love to open his press conferences by talking about how all the other teams players were good. Just like, well, this guy's got this and this guy got this, which I never had a problem. I'm not making fun of it for it, but he would be like, well, this guy does that. And it was Zimmer's favorite thing to know everything about every single player. And so that's so the opposite. And that's where throughout his entire time,

like I would always give him that he's a good football coach. You know, he was prepared and he knew how to run the team and he knew how to, you know, game plan and scheme and all those things that are usually at the top of the list. And Urban Meyer sounds like he wasn't even watching tape. He was just doing whatever Urban Meyer does. But, you know, this is a key lesson, I think, for our squads that we cover here, John,

is that you have to watch out for egomaniacs. And spotting them is not always easy, but spotting Urban Meyer as an egomaniac was easy. The same with, like, John Gruden, who I think is a good football coach, but apparently a racist. I did not know that. But the same thing. Like this is an egomaniac, though.

Character matters not just for players. It matters for your head coach especially. And so when someone is not necessarily hyping you up the most by their hire, winning the press conference, whatever it is, that can be okay because I think humility is a really big part of being a great coach. Yeah, no, I'm with you 100%. And to me, Urban Meyer was the ultimate used car salesman because his first press conference with the Jaguars,

when he got introduced, he was full of energy. He was talking about all the visions he had for Jacksonville, talking about how much homework he did you know studying the NFL and then before the season even started you know it was after they looked bad in the preseason you know after you know they looked terrible against the Saints and week two of the preseason you know he named Trevor Lawrence the starting quarterback by looking at the ground and shuffling his feet and you know he like he looked like you just know, kidnapped his dog and was holding it for ransom after losing preseason games. So I, I, I think, you know, when your mentality and your ego is as fragile as that, that that's a big sign.

And it's just, you know, in the NFL, a lot of times things are going to go wrong more often than not, they're going to go wrong. And I think you need to have a leader who can weather those storms. And, you know, to, to guys we've talked about, I think you need to have a leader who can weather those storms. And, you know, to guys we've talked about, I think Byron Leff, which is, you know, one of those kind of leaders. You know, I think Kellen Moore could be one of those kind of leaders. I think Nathaniel Hackett, from everything, you know, that's ever been said about Nathaniel Hackett, you know,

you can debate his, you know, play-calling resume. But from everything anybody's ever said, you know, this guy's a hell of a leader, you know. And so I think that's the more important thing to spot than, you know, play calling resume, but from everything anybody's ever said, you know, this guy's a hell of a leader, you know? And so I think that's the more important thing to spot than, you know, kind of sometimes wins and losses or, you know, maybe a play calling experience. You cover the Jaguars. So maybe there isn't a ton of interest from Vikings fans and following you, but I assure you that John is a great follow on Twitter. The only problem is at underscore John at underscore Shipley.

Blame, blame the twin cities, John Shipley. I'm waiting. I'm waiting for him to just tweet something. So hellacious that he gets banned and I can, I can take it from him. I would do anything for it.

Well, he's a great guy. So unfortunately you're out of luck there, but always fun to get together with you, man. I just like talking ball with you. So good luck with your coverage of your coaching search. You as well, man. Yeah. And I, I, I hope, you know, especially for you guys say you get a coach who is less combative

and a little more, you know, media friendly. Or burns to the ground immediately. I mean, I bet the urban Meyer clicks were insane. So they were, but it got to the point where I was like, yeah, there's a new story every day and you know, yeah, it's great for business, but I'm just so tired. I was, I was ready for it to end, man. You know, normally, you know, I'm, I just cover the guys, you know, I don't care if a guy gets fired or not, but I eventually, I was like, man, for, for my mental health, I need this. I cannot do year two of this. If,

if he gets a year two, I'm a, I'm a go into banking or something. Don't blame me for that. Great stuff, John. Great to talk with you again, man. We'll do it again soon. Thanks man. You too.