Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - A tribute to Joe Kapp and discussion on the Vikings fascinating QB history

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Matthew Coller and Scott Korzenowski talk about the passing of former Viking Joe Kapp and the strange nature of the Vikings QB history, plus how the Vikings' current brass should handle their QB future. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to a very special episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here. Joining me, Scott Korzenowski, former teammate of mine at 1500 ESPN and the biggest Joe Cap fan I have ever met in my life. And with Joe Cap passing away at the age of 85, I wanted to bring you on, Scott, to talk about Joe Capp's incredible football life. Even just reading his Wikipedia is really a journey for that man. But a sad day in Viking land, not too long after losing Bud Grant, now losing Joe Capp as well.

It is sad. You know, I'm one of these people, though, that when I'm a, if I lose close friends, I get sad. When I lose somebody who's admired, it's just a nice opportunity. He lived a nice long life, 85. We know he was suffering with dementia late in his life. And he talked about that he suspected it had to do with CTE, and he's donated his brain to science, so that'll be done. And he certainly wouldn't surprise me the way he played.

I mean, he was as much a fullback as he was a quarterback. And, but when I really felt like I lost Joe Capp was in 1970, because the first Vikings game I ever watched was the 1968 playoff game. The first playoff game the Vikings ever played against the Baltimore Colts. And I was, that was 1968. So I was only eight years old. I'd already become kind of a sports fan. I'd saved up my money

because we had one TV and I saved up my 50 cents a week allowance or whatever it was back then. And I think my folks actually, because I bought my own TV for $50. I think I probably saved up like 10 and my folks threw in 40, but whatever. I don't remember. I thought I bought it myself. There's little white, black and white TV so I could watch sports because my sisters didn't like to watch sports on our one TV. And so here we go. I said, the Vikings are in a playoff game and I'm going to take my little TV out and I'm going to watch this game. And the next game I watched on it, by the way, was the Superbowl where the Colts played the Jets the two weeks later. And I'm watching this the Super Bowl where the Colts played the Jets two weeks later. And I'm watching this playoff game and the Colts handled them pretty handily. And I was talking to my dad, what's this playoff thing all about? I mean, I really didn't know. All I knew is I was,

and I didn't even remember Joe Cap from that. But by the time the next year, when you go from eight to nine, that's a big difference in those days. By nine, you're much more in tune with stuff. And I became that that 1969 season I talked to you about it that was like my favorite season as a sports fan ever and my favorite team ever and Joe Cap was at the start of that and so and we'll talk about that season and what it meant but when that season ended Joe Cap got in a contract dispute and left. And he didn't even get signed until like halfway through the season. And that was devastating for me. I mean, Joe Cap, and then he went to play for the Patriots

and he wasn't any good at the Patriots. And by the way, for all you folks that are always pushing me on Twitter and saying if the Vikings had kept Case Keenum, he would be crappy because he was crappy at some other team. Not necessarily. That's all I would say. Sometimes you get into the perfect situation, which Joe Cap was. So I just loved him.

I love Joe Cap. Everything about him. And I know my dad really liked him. My law partner now, Michael Daly, reveres him. So people of a certain age, he's at the top of my list because, well, Fran's the number one quarterback for the Vikings. But after that, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that Joe Cap isn't the second best quarterback in the Vikings.

It's just such an amazing story because he played in the CFL and Bud Grant had played against him because Bud was a player and then a coach in Winnipeg. And Bud was only in his 20s when he took over as the coach. It's kind of a funny dynamic there. And so he played against Joe Capp so many times, and Joe Capp beat him a bunch of times. So when they needed a quarterback, he decided to – I mean, this wasn't like we just draft a quarterback at the top or something. I mean, it's a little bit of a different universe.

So he finds Joe Capp, brings him in, and there's a couple of years of just like, okay, quarterback play, nothing special. What was it about that 1969 season? Because he didn't even, if I remember, I didn't even start the first game and they were losing by a ton. He comes in, he gets them kind of rallied and then never gave the job back. And that team was unbelievable pretty much from the time he took over all the way to the end of the season, of course, losing in the Super Bowl as the Vikings want to do. But what was it about that season where he took off because he hadn't been that quarterback before?

It's, it is, it is, by the way, I'm going back and just looking and seeing that some of my memories are right on Wikipedia to see if I remembered some of these things and to get names right before I came on. The Vikings traded, this is mind-blowing to me, in the 1969 draft. So they already had Cap. I never knew this, you know, because I was too young to know this stuff. But the Vikings, Cap came, I think, in 67 when Bud claimed. I think he paid 67, 68, and 69 for the Vikings. And then he had his contract dispute. Ended up suing the league antitrust. So I respect him for that. He was ahead of his time on that stuff. But the Vikings traded two first round picks for Gary Quazo.

Gary, all I knew as a nine-year-old was Gary Quazo sucked. He was brutal. He was horrible. I didn't know they had traded two first round picks to New Orleans for Gary Quazo. So yeah, Gary Quazo starts the first game and they got lit up by Fran Tarkenton, who Norm Van Brocken had traded before he got fired, and then who the Vikings brought back later. And then the amazing thing is the second game of the 69 season,

the Vikings are playing the Baltimore Colts, whom they had lost to in the prior year, and Joe Kapp threw for seven touchdown passes, and they beat him 52-14 or something like that. So I was hooked. And his stats were, this would be a typical Joe Kapp game. He'd be 7 for 13 for 240 yards. I mean, he wouldn't throw that much, but they had Gene Washington. When there were two Gene Washingtons in the league, there was the Gene Washington on the 49ers, and there was the Gene Washington on the Vikings. And the Gene Washington on the 49ers always got a

little more publicity and was maybe a little better, but the Gene Washington on the Vikings was awful good too. And so they were not, they were a running team back in those days. And when they passed, they threw it down the field. And Joe Kappa, but the thing that was amazing to me is how physical he was. I mean, and we'll talk about some of the games, but the playoff game against the Rams, when they were losing 17-7, they came back and scored a touchdown to make it 17-14. And then the touchdown that put him ahead is Joe Capp ran into Bill Brown. They collided.

He turns around and runs. There's a guy there, and he hurdles him into the end zone. I mean, hurdles a linebacker. And then later when they played Cleveland in the NFL championship game, by the way, the Vikings did win the NFL title in 1969. He was running in midfield and he jumped over Ken Houston and caught his knee and knocked out Ken Houston, a linebacker. Joe Kapp gets up and here's a quarterback knocking out a linebacker. So he was really a football player in all respects, physical. And sadly, it doesn't surprise me that it led to him probably having CTE or, you know, some early dementia onset.

But it was just the right time in the right place. And it's really and you and I talked about it back in, you know, when we were my five favorite Vikings during the pandemic, when you were looking for other ways to fill your airspace. That that that the case Keenum just reminded me so much of Joe Capp. He was different. He was smaller. But he just seemed to get it done. He would run. He could run when he needed to.

He could throw when he needed. He rarely threw a spiral, but he got it there on time. I mean, the pass to Stephon Diggs. Jack, Joe Capp would have made that throw. And it would have looked just as ugly. And it would have looked just as ugly. And it would have been just as effective. And so sometimes you just get the right person in the right place. And that team, you know, Bud Grant had them.

The defense gelled. And, I mean, it was a great team. They gave up 133 points in 14 games. And the defense, I think, scored two touchdowns themselves. So they were negative. They were negative 109. They scored 14 and they gave up 133. That's pretty impressive. It was, yeah, it was an insane defense. I remember looking this up that the opposing quarterback rating against the Vikings that year was like 47. So it'd be like, if you or I played quarterback against an NFL defense, I mean, it was just insane. And, you know, you mentioned the way that he played.

And one of the great things in our universe is NFL films to be able to go back and watch, because obviously I'm not the same age as you. And yet I feel like I've seen a ton of Joe cap highlights. Every single one is either this crazy wobbling pass. There's a one highlight where he throws it like a chest pass and basketball makes a play, like the creativity running over people, like doing everything that it possibly could take. I mean, normally you wouldn't have even seen back then, I guess Roman Gabriel was huge, but like quarterbacks being that big and just trucking over people was something that was so unusual about the way he played. It seemed like it was just kind of perfect for what they needed.

And he they scored over 50 points three times in the regular season. They scored over 50 points when they beat the Colts. And then the first game I ever attended, they played a miserable Pittsburgh Steelers team. It was Chuck Knowles first first season. And then the first game I ever attended, they played a miserable Pittsburgh Steelers team. It was Chuck Knowles' first season, I think. They had just drafted Mean Joe Green. The next year they drafted Terry Bradshaw, and they were off and running. But they were horrible, and the Vikings beat them like 52-7 and could have named the score.

I was at that game, and I was kind of like, geez, Dad, you bring me to a game where they're playing a team that crappy? That's kind of what I was kind of like, geez, Dad, you bring me to a game where they're playing a team that crappy? That's kind of what I was thinking. And then the next game, and then later in the year, they beat Cleveland, who they played in the NFL championship, by 50. Colts, who they lost to in the playoffs, they scored 50. The Steelers, who stunk, they beat by 50. Steelers were in the NFL then. This was pre-merger. And then the Browns were in the NFL then, scored them 50. So they were an explosive team. But even though they ran the ball a lot and capped through a lot of interceptions,

the thing in those days, if you had 25 touchdown passes and 24 interceptions, that was considered good. It was considered if you had one more touchdown pass than interceptions, or 50-50 because, one, the defenses were killing the receivers, and two, they passed for big plays. The league then was run, run, run, and then pass for big plays. And it really wasn't until Jerry Burns came along when the Vikings got Chuck Foreman when that kind of changed. But Cap fit that era perfectly.

And he was – I mean, you can see him in guys today. There's some Pat Mahomes in him. The Pat Mahomes will run and throw off different platforms. There's some. I think if you were going to ask me who reminds me the most of him would be, now I'm having a senior moment, the quarterback for the Bills. Josh Allen. Josh Allen.

Because he's big and he runs guys over. Remember when they beat the Vikings when they were an 18-point underdog during Josh Allen. Josh Allen. Because he's big and he runs guys over. Remember when they beat the Vikings when they were an 18-point underdog during Josh Allen's? And he's hurtling Barr and he's running over linebackers. And, you know, Josh Allen hadn't learned pass yet. And he beat the Vikings. That was a Joe Cap game. I mean, the big, strong quarterback, not afraid to run everybody over.

That was Joe Cap. Now, obviously, Josh Allen has a much better arm than Joe Cap had, but from a, I'm going to do what it takes to win attitude, I like that in Josh Allen. And in fact, Josh Allen to this day, if you're going to have to take a strike on him, he still kind of throws the ball like having 25 touchdowns and 25 interceptions is okay, right? He's not checking down very often. He can't help himself. He reminds me a lot of Joe Cap in a good way. Yeah, no, I mean, we saw it a little bit this year where he could be a little bit reckless,

but that was one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my life, by the way, him hurtling Anthony Barr. Because I don't think TV ever does justice. And you know this being a huge basketball fan, it never does justice to the size of the athletes. And I have stood next to Josh Allen and oh my gosh, like it's just absolutely enormous. But you know, with cap, his playing

style was so fun and entertaining and kind of grinding out these wins, but also his personality and leadership. It seemed like it just kind of captivated everyone. And there's the famous story of him turning down the MVP and things like that. There's always going to be something to that. Like there's a little bit of mythology, I'm sure, with it. No matter what, when you lead a winning team, we can always say it's easier to lead a winning team. But I think with him, there was something to his attitude. He had this kind of edge to him.

He told a story that was on NFL films where they he came into a game that they were losing and he looked right at the best defensive player and yelled F you like just like I like that that was just kind of his edge which I I think that there's always going to be something to that at that leadership position I remember you know and he was Mexican, I believe, was his heritage. I believe it was Mexican. And I remember seeing not a lot of Latinos or Mexicans in the NFL. And there was a Sports Illustrated cover and it said, man of machismo. That's what they called him. I mean, he was the epitome of the macho man. I mean, he was, and you're talking at the awards banquet, Roman Gabriel won the MVP that year. And as a kid, I loved, my two favorite teams were the Vikings

and the Rams. It kind of went back to one, they were both good. That year, by the way, the Vikings also beat the Rams in the regular season. The Rams were 11-0 and the Vikings were 10-1. And people would say, why did they face each other in the divisional game instead of the conference championship game? Because back in those days, it was predetermined. It was predetermined. There were three divisions. And they would say, this division will play this division, and this division will play the wild card.

And it had nothing to do with your record. So I guess the Vikings, who won the Central, and the Rams, who won the West, that was predetermined. And then the team that won the East probably played the wild card. And that's how probably the Browns, because the Vikings and Rams were the best team. And the Vikings beat them in Los Angeles by a similar score to here. But that game, the divisional championship game, is amongst my most memorable days of my life. I mean, here I am nine. I just started watching the Vikings.

I'd been to one game and was hooked. And in my stocking on Christmas day, there was two tickets to the Rams game. And the game was, I don't know, a couple of days later. And we go and we sat at Met Stadium and what would have been fantastic baseball seats. We would have been right behind home plate in about the fourth row, absolutely awful football seats. Didn't matter to me. this young couple from Los Angeles comes and sits down next to us and it's I went and looked up the the when I was asked to describe that day I said it was just a normal December day cold but you know we were wasn't ridiculous and I looked at the temperature was 11 degrees it's about average right wasn't like 10 below they rarely had 10 below games because the regular season was always and the playoffs were usually over by right around January 1st. You didn't get into these January days in non-Super Bowl games. And so I don't, I never remember going to a game when it was below zero. And this young couple,

the guy is wearing like a raincoat and he's got like driving gloves on and he's wearing totes over his dress shoes. And my dad looks at him and says, you all are going to need our help. They're from Los Angeles. He gives them our blankets. And my dad always had some sort of concoction with whiskey and coffee in it that he was giving them. And it was really fun sitting next to them.

But the Vikings losing 17-7 at halftime in that game, you know, I was melting down as a kid. And they came out and won it. And the way it ended was classic with Roman Gabriel driving him down the field and Alan Page getting an interception and tipping it up and running across the field and Joe Capp hurling in for one of the touchdowns. I mean, that was an epic day. And then the next game they're playing the Browns at home blacked out.

The blackout. Not even the playoff games. Home games, I don't know when they got rid of that blackout, but whoever not even playoff games home games i don't know when they got rid of that blackout but whoever thought that was a good idea so i had to listen to it on the radio but the super bowl of course was was the low point yes yes it was it's it's the it's the it's one of the worst sports events of my life i mean mean, I was nine years old. They're losing 16-0 at halftime, and Joe Capp is, I mean, Hank Stram completely outcoached Bud Grant in that game. It's just, there's really no, no doubt about it. He got outcoached and took him apart, and at the end of that game, well,

the worst part, they're down 16-0, the Vikings score. They're going to get a stop. Len Dawson throws it to Otis Taylor. Ursel McBee, it's an out, it's a seven yard pattern. Ursel McBee falls on, goes down the field. And that's, that's when at the lawyers, our neighbor's house. And that's when the tears started flowing. I couldn't, I could not fight the tears at that point. Couldn't do it. It is funny how the, like Joe Capps short time in the NFL, very short time overlaps with some of these incredible moments of the AFL and NFL merging and kind of what leads to that with the losing to the Baltimore Colts. I mean, imagine had it been the Vikings that were playing the Jets. Maybe it goes differently. Like maybe the Vikings beat the jets in that game. You know, who knows? And then it's totally different, but also the jets win was

a huge moment for the AFL, but it was almost just as big that Kansas city had won that game in the way that they did. It wasn't like a close game. It wasn't kind of fluky or anything else like that. It wasn't just the Joe Namath and everything. It was like the Kansas City Chiefs are a monster football team, and they just ran this great Vikings team out of the building. So even though you were crying tears, it played a big role in what would eventually happen in NFL history. And by the way, it's possible that this year the Eagles and Chiefs could replay the Super Bowl on the first game of the season.

Well, that happened in 1970. First game of the season, the Chiefs came into Metropolitan Stadium, and I think the Vikings won 27 to 10. So it was, but you are right. I mean, it was a dominating performance. And then, and the worst part of it was Joe Capp had to leave, you know, the game was over from a competitive standpoint, but it wasn't over, and he's still out there, and he got hit, I think, by Buck Buchanan, and he broke his ribs, and in his last Viking game, he not only walks off in defeat, but he walks off being hurt. Kind of similar, I guess, to, you know, Brett Favre's career ended here,

that he went off, I don't know if they lost that game he walked off in, but they weren't having a good season, and he went off the field hurt when he had never been hurt before. Kind of, you know, when you really look at the Vikings, some of these quarterbacks that they've had for a very short time, you know, Brett Favre for two years, one year spectacular. Randall Cunningham for two years, one year spectacular. Case Keenum, one year spectacular. Joe Kapp, you know, three, four years, you know, one of the most spectacular years ever uh the vikings have caught some lucky breaks on getting some of these quarterbacks uh that would that really did well for a short period of time and joe cap was at the top of that

list and it's so funny because now when i used to do the radio show and you know i enjoy the business of sports you know i have certain viewpoints one is the players should get paid the players should be free to move you, all the people complaining about the transfer portal, I'm going, really? Okay. It's about time that the athletes that are, that you're making gazillions of dollars off can at least go to another school if they don't like where they are. Oh, it's not good for the game. Well, I don't care. Then pay him some money, sign him to a contract, you know, player. And then Joe cap kind of got that, you know, he didn't like what the Vikings offered him and all the stories that were told about Bud Grant,

obviously Bud Grant, one of the reasons he went to Canada is they offered him like $2,000 more a year than the Eagles did. I mean, Bud and – so I'm thinking Bud and Joe Cap kind of saw things similarly would be my guess. Yeah, I mean, that is something that – I mean, we just don't see a whole lot in the nfl today if somebody wants a contract and they're a good player they're pretty much going to get it although what i mean even what happened with case keenum was extremely unique how many times has a team ever gone to the nfc championship and then changed quarterbacks the next year it does not

happen very often i could think of like the Baltimore Ravens when they went to Elvis Gerbach after winning with Trent Dilfer, but there's only a handful of examples of doing that. But back in the day, these contract disputes, I mean, it even kind of lasted through like the eighties and nineties. Wasn't it Bobby Hebert who skipped an entire season with a contract dispute? There wasn't the CBA, there wasn't free agency. There wasn't all these things kind of in place. And you wonder if there had if joe capp would have continued to be the vikings quarterback and what that could have meant to the next couple years uh but then you know fran returns and all that so it's kind of a place of a role there in history 1970 and 1971 the vikings were you know

they their offense was so they two years of you that at 1969, that was the peak of the purple leaders, but I'll tell you 70, 71, and then 72. And when the Vikings went to the Superbowl or 73, when they went, because Fran's first year, the Vikings went seven and seven, which was shocking to everybody. Cause they went like 10 and four and in 70 and 71, I think they made the playoffs, but, but they were winning games, you know, six to nothing, you know, you know, 10-3.

I mean, Gary Quazo, like I said, was horrible. And then they had Norm Snead came along, who was a former Eagles passer, and he wasn't any better. And then they had Bobby Lee, who was their punter but could play quarterback a little bit. I mean, those were two dark years without Joe Capp. And like I said, I didn't really get it as a nine or 10-year-old. I mean, I knew he didn't get enough money, but I would know I was never mad at Joe Capp. I'm like, why wouldn't they pay him the money? And if we look back now, I'm sure the amount of money difference would be absurd by today's

standards, but it meant a lot then. And yeah, you just didn't, I don't know, I guess he was a free agent because I know they used to have like a they could keep your player but his contract ran out if i don't know all the details but he ended up signing with uh the new england patriots and then didn't and i think he played one year and was done yeah i think he went like one in ten or something it went really badly but then so this is like an interesting part of Joe Cap, though, is that after his career in the NFL, he ends up being the head coach at Cal when the band is on the field, which is crazy. I mean, it's almost this is like a Forrest Gump ish type of career that he had after because he ended up being a CFL general manager. He was an actor and showed up in a handful of TV shows. I mean, it's just funny. Like he, he wrote a book that I'm going to have to get and read at some point because he had such a unique journey even

after the NFL and kind of always lived off of that 1969 season with the Vikings. And if you look at, I mean, and he, I looked at this Wikipedia when he died, I knew he was in the original longest yard he was one of the with with burt reynolds and for those most of you i think know the longest yard and they remade it years later with adam sandler but uh but the original longest yard is a classic okay i mean it's a prisoner it was a football player and i don't know whether he he was gambling or he gets thrown into in the penitent he's like a superstar quarterback and he gets thrown into the penitentiary. He's like a superstar quarterback and he gets thrown into prison and he organizes a game against the guards or something.

And Joe Cap is one of the badass guards. And Joe Cap, I learned, was one of the producers of that movie. So so he got into the Hollywood business. And I mean, he was like Alex Karras got into movies back then. He was kind of like an Alex Karras character. And he was such a character to play a guard. He just kind of had to be himself, right? Because he could be a hard ass, right? He was a natural hard ass, and he looked mean,

and he's a bigger guy, and he played a natural hard ass. And he was probably one of the major, one of the guards. The movie was more about the inmates, but he was one of the guards that had the bigger role. Yeah, it's such a cool kind of like side note and his wikipedia again it's just a complete gem uh i wonder where you think he ranks is he the coolest viking quarterback of all time like obviously he's not the best passer and not the most accomplished because that's fran targerton by far but i think he's got a really good argument dante too for coolest i mean of my time watching football i think easily dante is the coolest i know that you're a huge case keenum fan but i feel like that is his legacy that's not a bad legacy to have for a team's franchise is being known as

like the coolest most badass quarterback your team has ever had well when when you asked me to give my top five guys you know put case keenum at, even though he don't, you know, because he reminded me of Cap, and number one was Joe Cap. I mean, Joe Cap is my favorite Viking of all time because of that season and because everything he stood for. And he brought them, you know, to the Super Bowl. You know, so they've only had two quarterbacks that brought them to the Super Bowl. So Fran is the best quarterback the Vikings have had. He's the best quarterback. He's is the best quarterback the Vikings have had. He's the best quarterback. He's in the Hall of Fame for a reason.

He was a glimpse into the future. When he played, I'm sure you know this because you know your history, but Norm Van Brocklin hated him because he was so mobile. He said, stay in the pocket. Now what are we all saying? You've got to have a quarterback who's mobile. That's one of Kirk Cousins. He just doesn't have it.

He's gotten more mobile, but he's not a real mobile quarterback, and you want to have – so, I mean, really, Patrick Mahomes, if you watch Patrick Mahomes play, I think the most obvious comparison to Patrick Mahomes is Fran Tarkin because he would run all over the place and much like Patrick Mahomes wouldn't run downfield very often. Patrick Mahomes mostly runs around looking to pass it. That was absolutely Fran Tarkenden. Joe Kapp would run it. Joe Kapp, if he didn't like it, he would just take off and run you over. Mahomes will do that. But so Fran Tarkenden was a, he was ahead of his time, right, and not appreciated by his very own coach. So, but I do think, I think, I mean, I think Joe Capp is, I think, Fran Tarkenden is the best quarterback the Vikings have had.

My quarterback rankings for the Vikings, you know, Favre had that incredible year. Randall Cunningham, I think won MVP the year he played here. So those guys are right up there, similar charisma. For me, it's Joe Cap is number two, just is. Yeah. I mean, that, that is such a fascinating part of Vikings history of how short the runs are and, you know, Culpepper that 04 season is one of the great seasons in history. You mentioned Randall Cunningham at the time, there was an argument that that was the best offense ever. I mean, relative, you know, the league changes and everything else, but by the actual numbers, that was the best offense that had ever been played in the history of our spinning earth at the time that Randall

Cunningham did. And by the next year, Jeff George is playing quarterback for the Vikings. And the same thing happening with Joe Capp. So it was really only Fran Tarkenton who had that run. I think that's a great comparison, by the way, to Mahomes. Because even when you look at Tarkenton and Mahomes, both of them had the arm to throw downfield, but they often threw underneath. And it had a lot of quick passes to go along with the playmaking mobility.

That's how Chuck Foreman became such a weapon as a receiver out of the backfield, which really hadn't been done a lot before. And when you see Mahomes, there's a lot of quick passes that he comes up with or short intermediate stuff from running around. And Targeted, again, was a guy who led every passing category at the time he retired, which is kind of the way i like to look at like where people rank where did you rank when you were done playing because you can't keep playing against the other guys that come after you um so anyway i i love the vikings quarterback history for that reason that there's these pop-up seasons from certain guys where it is special even if it's just a flash but it's it's there and those players endear themselves I would say that there's a

little like Teddy Bridgewater to Joe Capp as well where it wasn't the most beautiful passing but it was really his personality and his leadership that kind of captivated it didn't get them to the Super Bowl maybe would have needed Blair Walsh to kick it through the goalposts in order to do that but like Mike Zimmer would have liked joe cap he didn't like your cousins but he would have liked the joe cap type personality and it really was a case where that zimmer turned his back on keenum you know and you know and all the things he said about him you know he always wearing his rosary beads or whatever he's saying yeah he had some good fortune everybody has good fortune and you know there's plenty of numbers you can look up the

numbers how many passes should have been intercepted versus actually were. So, you know, the numbers are there if you want to look at it. But he's – and then you go and get a quarterback who – and look, for Cousins' credit, his mobility within the pocket and his pocket presence, he has improved that since 2018. In 2018, he was like a statue. And the Vikings did not have a very good offensive line. And so Keenum was a better fit for their offensive line, especially given that they could

have had Keenum for what, $18 million? He signed a two-year $36 million deal. I think only $18 million or $19 million was guaranteed. If they signed him for $18 million instead of Cousins for $28 million, that's an extra $10 bucks under the cap that maybe you could even get a lineman or two and kept Keenum there. But we're not here to talk about those guys other than it is an interesting history because when you look at the long-term quarterbacks, I mean, I'm a big Tommy Kramer fan too. I mean, I love him on Twitter.

He's reached out to fans. He's a character. In college, we loved him. We'd sit there and we'd say, was Tommy at the Rusty Scupper last night or wasn't he? And our view, because he was always down at the rusty scupper in the middle of the night, he'd get pulled over by the cops. They'd make sure he got home. And the next day he'd throw four TD passes. Our theory in college was, was that if Tommy was out drinking the night before, he was going to do better on Sunday. But Tommy was, you had the good

Tommy and you had the bad Tommy. But the good Tommy was outstanding. I mean, he was a Favre-like gunslinger, you know, but he was a little too inconsistent. But you look at the long-term Viking quarterbacks. Obviously, Fran had longevity and accomplishment. Tommy Kramer had longevity, but, you know, was a little too inconsistent to be considered great. And how many other quarterbacks do they have with any longevity? And you mentioned Dante, that 0-4 season.

But for a guy named Peyton Manning, who had an unbelievably ridiculous season, he would have been an MVP. Those numbers would have gotten – and the Vikings record would have gotten him MVP except for Peyton Manning, perhaps one of the greatest seasons at that point in quarterback history. And then he gets hurt. The next year he gets hurt. And the longevity of Dante.

Otherwise, maybe we'd be talking about dante as the best quarterback oh i think there's no question that we would have been talking about him as the best vikings quarterback other than maybe targetton but if you consider that there was an ownership change in there and they started to get things kind of back on track and they weren't as cheap anymore. And then they built that team up because Favre not only like was great that year, but they had a really good team. They had a really good defense. They also had a pretty favorable schedule that year. Like there would have been a year where it all came together for Dante. I mean, he went to an NFC championship anyway, so it wasn't like he was incapable of doing that. And maybe you end up with a different history, which is what it says on the outside of the Viking stadium.

Maybe if only dot, dot, dot, then something else would have happened. But I, I wanted to just maybe ask you a question or two about how you feel about them now. But if you thought of any other Joe cap things that you wanted to bring

up, I don't want to leave anything on the table. No, no. I'd love to talk about now. I really think that it's really i think what quacey and ko cernan is pretty interesting because to me this is just speculation but the vikings you know of course spoke to ryan poles the chicago gm and then he left and then

all of a sudden he was done and my and my my guess is they asked ryan his plan, and this would have been my plan if someone had asked me last year. I would have torn it down. I would have torn it down last year, and I would have traded Cousins, and I would have torn it down, and I would have ripped the bandage off. And by the way, hockey fans, isn't it interesting that the Blackhawks, who had Taves and Kane, now got to replace them? You know, because they don't spend their time losing first round playoff games. They, they, they win titles and then they tear it down

and then they build it back up and then they win titles. And that's what you have to do. And getting into the playoffs and look, last year was a lot of fun. We all had fun. I mean, that Buffalo game, that season was incredibly fun, but it was a sugar high. And give credit to the players. They won those games. They deserve to have 13 wins. There's no question about that. But they weren't a very good team. You know, they were, out of the 32 NFL teams, they were maybe the 14th best team that just happened to take advantage of every opportunity that was given to them. And they closed the deal much to their credit. So I don't say, but,

but to sit there and say that they were a legitimate title contender. Well, if you, if you've got to, if you've got a chair at the table, you can, you can win the hand that can happen. But, and I enjoyed that season, but now look at where they are. And now look at where the Bears are. The Bears had the number one pick. They traded it for other picks. They're building the cupboard.

They think they have their quarterback because they had the year before. So I am pleased. But what I think happened is I think Ryan Pohl said that, and the Wills probably said that's not what we want. Or maybe Questy said it. He said, well, I'll do what I'll do. The competitive rebuild. I think the Wills, that's what they wanted. So, so I think, I think my, this is me.

I don't know Questy. You know, you've talked to him. My sense is, is that if he had his druthers, he would have torn it down, but I could be wrong, but, but, but look, the Wills own the team. They have the right to say, no, we want you to do it this way. They're the owners of the team. They can do it. And look, it was a great season.

It was super fun. But now, you know, now they couldn't get Anthony Richardson. You know, I mean, they couldn't do it. I think they wanted to. Don't you? Oh, yes. I think that they wanted one of those three quarterbacks. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And I know you about Anthony Richardson. I mean, to me, I've watched so much. I'm not a guy that does that, but guys that kind of know tape, the thing that they say about Anthony Richardson is that he's a very low sack rate. Very low sack rate. He's mobile in the pocket, and he doesn't pull a Christian ponder, and as soon as some guy's in his face, tuck it and run.

He's looking down the field. He's stepping up. So people that say that you're starting from scratch with this guy i i don't he's played very few college games which is a concern but but that would have been if i had the number one pick in the draft that would have been my guy and i i maybe would have crashed and burned but i i would have one of the things i know when i have to make a decision i always think how would i feel if i feel if I didn't do this and it worked out? And I would have felt so bad if I didn't take Anthony Richardson, that I would take it.

And it doesn't mean I don't think Bryce Young or C.J. Stroud or any of these guys are going to be good. I just know that. And I think by the Vikings, you know, basically just kicking the can down the road one year with Kirk, I think we're going to see them. They're going to make their move, I think. And I think they need to do it. It's really a potential inflection point one way or the other. I mean, because if they had

torn it down, they would have lost a lot of games. I mean, if they played Nick Mullins as their starting quarterback, they would have lost probably 13 games last season. And then they would have been in position to take one of three potential franchise quarterbacks I tend to agree with you on Richardson I was never convinced he was going to fall because I thought the NFL is just going to love what they see when you actually watch him play and you see how bad his team was you see how hard he played you see how he handled the adversity of playing Georgia and and going up against a team that was way better than his and finding ways to keep his team in the game. I know the accuracy and short yardage is not great.

The accuracy down the field, though, actually is really great. So it's like, can we correct short passes? Probably the easiest thing to fix. I don't know if he's going to be great or not, but I liked a lot of his leadership element that we're talking about with Joe Kapp, with Case Keenum, with Teddy Bridgewater. I saw a lot of that in him that we're talking about with Joe Capp, with Case Keenum, with Teddy Bridgewater. I saw a lot of that in him. And if you went four and 13 and you drafted him and you pair that freakish ability with Justin Jefferson, I feel good about that process. And Christian Derrissaw, who's a superstar, by the way.

I feel good about that process. And if that goes wrong, well, I picked the greatest athlete to ever play at the position with a monster arm who, you know, just gave me a chance at least to go somewhere different to another level, who gave me a chance to find a Dante Culpepper or something to pair with the best receiver in the league. But that's what happens when you competitive rebuild is sometimes you fall ass backward into a 13 win season and then you're stuck drafting in the twenties. I like who they got in Jordan Addison. I like how it sets up for their future for the next quarterback potentially, but it also puts them in a position to be like, well, maybe we should extend Kirk. Right. And everybody has in the past, they've always been talked into this.

Like maybe we should go for another year of Kirk. Kirk oh he won that playoff game against New Orleans like maybe we should go for it it's like stop doing this stop allowing yourselves to be talked into it and I think that they drew a line in the sand and we'll see if this stays true through the offseason into camp with the extension but it seems like they drew a line in the sand saying we're not doing what the last guys did paying you the most money in the league for three or four years and locking ourselves into our entire tenure being connected with him because everybody else who's done that has gotten fired so I think that at some point they want to pick their quarterback but I'm okay with the fact that they decided that guy wasn't Will Levis and that that might be a bad take eventually he might be a, and we might go back and go, oh, my gosh,

this is Steph Curry and Johnny Flynn again. But I was okay with their process of not picking Will. I am too. In fact, the things that I saw about Will Levis is he gets sacked a lot. To me, and I'll tell you another quarterback, Deshaun Watson, by the way, take out all of his off-the-field problems. I would have never gone out and signed him because what did he always lead the league in? Getting sacked.

Now, yeah, a lot of that has to do with the offensive line, but a lot of it doesn't. Dan Marino had the mobility of me, and he never got sacked. He had some good offensive lines. Richmond Webb at left tackle, he had some good. But I'm telling you, it wasn't like he wasn't under pressure. He's a guy that knew had pocket presence and knew when to get rid of it, knew when to check down, knew when to take a little sidestep here. You know, Tom Brady doesn't get sacked very much either. And so to me, that's a huge factor for me is that how the quarterback is partially responsible for getting sacked. It's like, you know, do you win with the jockey or do you win with the horse?

Well, you need to have both. You need to have the offensive line. You need a quarterback. And, and if one of them's bad, you're going to get, you're going to have more sacks, but if they're both bad, you're going to have disaster. And so I, I like quarterbacks that, so I'm, I'm, I've always said, if you wreck, if you identify a player, then it's quarterback, then you got to do everything you can to go up and get them. And again, I don't know that the Vikings could have done that. I mean, they would have had to give up probably three number ones down the road. I mean, although

Gary Quazo got two number ones, I still can't believe that. But so my, you know what I'm saying? I mean, but if he's not your guy, don't just – don't pull a Christian ponder. Well, he's the next best quarterback. Let's take him. You've got to – the guy you pick, you've got to be convinced is your guy. Andy Reid was – they had just come off what? The playoff team, 13-win team, Alex Smith, good quarterback, and Andy Reid put all his chips on the table.

Now, he only had to go up for 10th, but he saw something there that other people didn't see. And he was right. You know, other people, you know, Mitch Trubisky, they saw something there and they were wrong. And it's about a 50-50, maybe less, right? A hit right at quarterbacks. But if you know what you're looking for,

and all the stuff I read about KOC and what a great quarterbacks coach he is, and, you know, so many quarterbacks talk about what a great quarterback coach he is. I think, and we know how good of a quarterbacks coach he is and you know other so many quarterbacks talk about what a great quarterback coach is i think and we know how good of a quarterbacks coach andy reed is i have some hope that koc can identify skills given that he was a quarterback who when he got to the pros couldn't do it you know when you listen to uh who's the guy that used to be played for the ravens used to be on uh was their quarterback when they went won the Superbowl way back in the early days. Yeah.

Trent Dilfer. Trent Dilfer. He recognized what he didn't have, but we ever hear him break down quarterbacks. He's pretty good because he, he played and he goes, here's why I wasn't any good. So I'm looking for people that don't have that weakness.

You know, I know what the weaknesses are that cost you in the NFL and it's hard for GM GMs to know it. My view is just an amateur who likes to, you know, hang out on Twitter and read articles is pocket presence is huge for me. You got to have a certain arm talent. You have to have a certain physical ability, but like Cousins has great arm talent. And obviously, look, Cousins is an above-average NFL quarterback and has had a long career, multiple Pro Bowls, good quarterback. He's been a good NFL quarterback for many years. But he has some weaknesses, and his weaknesses are pocket presence, mobility,

being able to operate off broken plays. He doesn't have that. So to me, those are factors that I would look for. And Richardson obviously has all the physical tools. But when I saw these guys breaking down and saying his pocket presence is really good and he gets away from trouble, still looks downfield and almost never gets sacked, that sold it for me, that if he's got that ability, we know he's got a strong arm. Yeah, maybe he's not as accurate as he could be.

But we've seen Joshosh allen you know going from hey guys that throw for 50 in college never turn out to be good pros well they did with josh allen because he went in and fixed it that's that's that's rare but it worked for him well and the same thing was with jalen hertz where they talked about him not being able to throw but when you are a hundredth percentile athlete uh you can make changes that regular people cannot, regular NFL quarterbacks cannot when you are the best of the best, or you can find ways to make up for some of that,

or you give your coordinators ways to work around that. Running the football is one of them, but your assessment of the sack issue is dead on. I mean, one, it's been statistically proven that the quarterback has more control over sacks than even the offensive line. Only about 10% of the time Josh Allen is even pressured, does it turn into a sack? And also when you look at expected points, it can actually be worse to be sacked and throw an interception. Like it is such an unbelievably

negative play. And I think what Kirk had like 46 last year, because this offense wants him to stay on reads longer, which often results in pressures and sacks. And if you pressure him, a lot of times it does turn into a sack because he's going to go down, try to protect himself, which is great to have him on the field. But at the same time, there's no escaping. Once the pressure is there it's just there and you're sacked and that is what i liked about richardson and i think for the next quarterback and o'connell was a great athlete himself by the way he ran one of the fastest 40s and i do wonder does he see that part like he obviously respects kirk's accuracy because o'connell

couldn't throw the ball anywhere close to how well Kirk does. So he's named that as his top thing, but I've got to wonder if he sees some of these plays, the fourth and eight is going to stick in everybody's mind, but does somebody else escape the pocket at that point, make a play, run for a first down. And here's a stat to blow your mind. Just absolutely blow your mind. Daniel Jones of all people who's, you know, ran like a four, seven or something, but he has the ability to run. He had more first down runs than Delvin cook last year. How insane is that? Well, look at Patrick Mahomes. He didn't, he run like a four. Didn't he run? I mean, I've seen this. He ran the same 40 times as Tom Brady at the combine, something like that. I mean, I think he was a little faster, but he's not, but he's not fast.

He has that gene, but. But people never tackle him. Yep. He didn't come in and he just, he eludes guys that are way faster than him. He's fast defensive ends, you know. The guy from Dallas comes in. I'm not saying the Micah Parsons can't get him, but you'll see him run away from those guys because he knows when to leave or something.

I can't define it. I can just see it. I mean, Tarkenton was very much that way. I don't have any idea how fast Tarkenton was. I just know that people found it almost impossible to sack him. He would run around like crazy. And you can go see the highlights. Some of these like 30 yards behind the line of scrimmage,

and he's still running around. He used to drive my father nuts, I'll say that. But I love Tarkenton. So, yeah, it's quarterbacking is – and people think that we're hating on Kirk Cousins. No, we're not. I could not have more respect for Kirk Cousins. He shows up for work every day.

He's never hurt. He's always prepared. He gets better. He takes his job seriously. His team seems to like him. They view him as a leader. They all stick up for him. He's just physically not worth $40 million a year.

And he's going to tap your salary cap. And, by the way, he's had a chance. He's been here, what, five years, six years? And and they've won some games and they've won a playoff game but one playoff game in his five years he's been here is that is that what you want and it's not all his fault but it's more his fault than people think because he's getting paid too much at quarterback and that's not that's not his fault because he's earned it but that's the vikings fault for you want to get in that five-year window which by the way you know there's been a lot of talk about Trey Lance but do you want to trade for Trey Lance when he's already in his fourth year is he in his fourth year or third year third year I think you know you want to have those five years

you know if you can not not just two of them not just two of the years before you got a Pam well and you even see the awkward position that the Packers are in Jordan love because they let that whole thing run out. And it's like, this is really relevant because the NFL is a game on the field and an economics game off the field. That's what makes everybody love it so much is that we can all play along with the GM. In fact, I heard the chargers GM mentioned that he was doing draft Sims on PFFs's website just like us simulating the draft taking players and stuff leading up to it so uh we all get to play that armchair gm that makes it interesting but i think that you you make a great point about the hidden yards of quarterback and i don't worry about the cousins discussion on twitter because you you'd be shocked twitter's not that nuanced

it's weird i discovered but uh it is it is a really you you know nuanced discussion though about why they haven't won more with cousins despite the big passing stats and a lot of that is the hidden yards the hidden rushing first downs of other quarterbacks the hidden sack yards that you don't talk about that much you know and you know certain years he's been more of a check down like take the easy yards as opposed to pushing it down the field and I think last year was kind of one of those years where he didn't push it down the field as much as he had in other years and I think what we've reached is just kind of the conclusion like this is what it is we've had every iteration of what

have you given this what have you given that what have you changed the coach what if you whatever and you still end up not scoring outscoring your opponents last year and you know so you kind of end up in that same spot and i think that if they have drawn the line in the sand and decided next year we are drafting our future quarterback then the franchise is going very much in the right direction you mentioned the bears bears lions they did these full rebuilds like they're going to be there competing but as long as you have jefferson and as long as you have daris as long as you have these megastar players you can put together a defense if you have the cap space to do it if you find a quarterback in the draft who is even good doesn't even necessarily have to be a megastar has to be kind of a winner

and has to be kind of good if you find that you can go in the right direction so somebody asked me the other day like are they getting closer to a super bowl at this moment it's like not yet but i think by leaving that door open to draft a quarterback next year you're probably doing the best thing that they've done in years i guess what i don't get is why and i know you're 13 and four last year, and Cousins brought him back eight times. Why, and maybe why, because I think they were on the hook for this year anyway, but why didn't you just either eat the $40 million this year and be done with it so you're clean next year,

or better yet, see if you could have traded him? Because having him play, they're going to win more games than if they had some, you know. My plan for them last year was get rid of him and go sign Marcus Mariota. having him play, they're going to win more games than if they had some, you know, you know, my, my plan for them last year was get rid of them and go sign Marcus Mariota. That was my plan. Marcus Mariota is making $7 million. He's a professional NFL quarterback and people go, well, he's not as good as Kirk. Of course he's not as good as Kirk, but that's kind of the idea. You know, I kind of like to not be real good so that you're, you're, you know, you're drafting third or fourth instead of 12th or 13th and and

playing if they got rid of cousins and brought in you know and signed a marcus mariotta type quarterback this year they would lose more games yes and i get that but now you would have cleared your cap space because even next year if they get 25 million i think is what the dead money next year if they cut them next year they got 25 million dead money on there so i don't get it i would have if you had done it this year or going into next year why don't you just rip the bandage off going into next year and you and you take justin jefferson down and you say here's what we're going to pay you we're going to take care of you we're going to get a quarterback in here and we're going to do it and that's what i would have done i mean i mean with with kirk cousins is your starter you said that the offense they're going to do it. And that's what I would have done. I mean, with Kirk Cousins as your starter,

you said that the offense they're going to have with Derrissaw and now there's other receivers. I don't see them being much worse than 9-8 or 8-9 next year, right? And their defense will probably be a little better. It'll get younger. They've gotten rid of some of the older guys. They're going to have a better defensive coordinator. They could win the division.

Okay, okay, good. But are they going to win the Super Bowl? Maybe. Maybe they'll catch lightning in a bottle and win the division. Okay. Okay. Good. You know, but are they going to win the Super Bowl? Maybe, maybe they'll catch lightning in a bottle and win the Super Bowl. But at the end of the day, I think there's two ways to build your team. When, when I was a sports writer, I covered the Miami Heat in their beginning years and Billy Cunningham was their guy and they had another GM and, and they basically had one of the worst teams in the history of the league their first year. And, and remember what they said to the media there, I say, we're not here to build a team that makes the playoffs. We're here to build a team that can win a title. Well, they never really

did until they went out and threw all the money at Shaq and then they were winning. So they, they weren't a hell of a lot better than the Timberwolves in the early years, but, but even to this day, that's what they do. Okay. And so I remember that. And I would like to see the Vikings are trying to build teams for the playoffs. All of our teams are trying to get into the playoffs. That's all they're trying to do. It's a different – you've got to have some pain. I mean, the Vikings are almost never terrible. Almost never.

You know, they had the Les Steckle year. They had another year, the last year of Frazier, when they were like bad. They've been bad like four or five times in my lifetime where they're really bad. And other than that, you know, they have some years where they go 7-10 or something or 9-10. But they're never the Houston Texans from the last two years. Well, maybe you should be. Maybe, and I'm not saying you try to do it, but I'm saying, look, we're not going to pay Cousins. We're going to bring in the

quarterbacks. We want, our objective next year is to get a quarterback. And it would seem to me that by getting rid of Cousins, they would have more assets enabled to get it. Because Cousins is good. He is good. He's going to win you some games. Guarantee, if Marcus Mariota was coach, was there last year, they probably would have been four and 13 with that defense, right? So Cousins basically cost them. That might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but they wouldn't have been 13 and four with Marcus Mariota last year. Well, if they had taken the direction that we expect Ryan Poles wanted to take them, then they probably would have won four games because they would have traded Kirk to like the Colts or something. I remember the Colts went and got Matt Ryan, but there was reports that they

were interested in Kirk as well. Kirk would have been a better choice for them being younger and not as washed as Matt Ryan was. They probably make the playoffs with Kirk last year with that Colts team, as opposed to completely falling apart. And then, yeah, they would have been in line to draft potentially one of these quarterbacks could have even maybe traded up hard to say, but then if you, I don't know, I mean, even if you tank and you miss out on those guys and you take Will Anderson instead, then you've got sort of your franchise edge rusher. And you know, who knows, like so many things kind of trickle down off that decision that it's one we'll be looking at for many years was the 13 win season worth it i remember asking that right after

the year and most people went what not maybe fun but no like in the long term didn't get you closer to actually winning a championship and that's the thing that's rested over them i do think there are practical reasons why they want to do this i try to understand them as uh generally looking at things like you do philosophically. But I think it is hard if you make certain sort of promises to stay competitive and then say, well, wait a minute. Who are you trading Kirk to? Who is the quarterback that you're bringing in instead? Is it Baker Mayfield? Like, do we think Tampa Bay is going to be great with Baker Mayfield? So that's not what they want to hear. You know what I mean?

And not only that, but you have to consider Justin Jefferson's feelings here. He does not have to sign a contract extension this off season. And the thing is he will make his money. If they fifth year option, that's a lot of money. If they franchise tag them, that's a lot of money. The man's not going to go poor. He's only going to sign his contract extension if he really wants to be here. So it is such a complicated issue with a lot of moving parts. But I think that there is a universe where Ryan Poles comes in, takes it apart, and they're drafting one of the top quarterbacks this year. And we're talking about a totally different thing.

Maybe it'd work, maybe it'd blow up, but it would be a totally different direction that has worked for a lot of teams to have that young or mobile quarterback. And, you know, you would have, you would have had to treat just, just, just, you have to bring him in. that has worked for a lot of teams to have that young or mobile quarterback. And, you know, you would have had to treat just – you have to bring him in and say, what do you think if we do this? And if he says – I would ask him, right? And he would say, well, if we're going to have a crappy quarterback for three years, I'm not going to want to sign here again.

I'm going to say, well, okay. But even then, I mean, look, I think if you're a receiver, Kirk Cousins, you could have a lot worse quarterbacks than Kirk Cousins if you're a receiver. Justin Jefferson has shown that, right? I mean, he's done very well with him. So I get that. But at the end of the day, I'm guessing Justin Jefferson would like to get –

I think he'd be on board. But I wouldn't just treat him like any other player because he's not. And he is a generational talent. There's no question about that. And it's funny, the Vikings seem to have – they have the magic at receiver. The Vikings have had the magic at receiver. We talk about Joe Capp. I mean, going back to Gene Washington.

I mean, Gene Washington is the first guy. I remember then Sammy White and Ahmad Rashad and Reed and Moss and Justin Jefferson and, you know, even Thielen. I mean, the amount of great receivers the Vikings have had is, you know, we've been spoiled by the receivers. And then I was so down on them trading Stephon Diggs, and then they get somebody who's going to be better than Stephon Diggs, I believe.

I think he's even better than Stephon Diggs. I was lucky. You know, it could have been trade Randy Moss and get the guy that they drafted, the guy that couldn't see Troy Williamson. You know, it could be that way too. But anyway, no, I just really – to me, the reason is, I think, Matthew, the Wilfs like to have teams that are good. They're really – and I'm not saying they're not committed to getting

to the Super Bowl. I think they're committed from a money perspective. You know, all the money they spent on TCL. It's a different commitment. It's a commitment to be bad for a couple of years. And they're just can't do it. They just don't want to do it. And you know what? They don't have to do it if they don't want to. They own the team. Right. I mean, they spent all the money because they're I think they're good owners. You know, they take care of their, you know, well, the organization is wonderful. Their facilities are great. That's all in the Wilfs, right?

They've created this. So they're good owners. But I think that they just want to be good and they don't want to pay the painful price because money isn't painful for the Wilfs. They got plenty of that. What they don't have is they don't want to sit in that box and watch a team go 2-13 or 2-15, right? they don't have is they don't want to sit in that box and watch a team go two and 13 or two and 15, right? They don't. And that's what they're unwilling to pay. That's the price. And they don't have to pay it. I mean, it's their team. They can do what they

want. But we need to get somebody in there that's like Billy Cunningham and the Heat owners said, no, we're not trying to get to the playoffs. We're trying to get to the NBA tournament. And I'm certainly empathetic to that, that they would want to have competitive teams and try to build up the team again to have a chance without having to go back down. It's just a more difficult road. And actually there was a,

there was a analytic study on this. It is a literally by the numbers, a more difficult road to go from the middle to great than it is from terrible to great, which kind of matches up with what we would think. But it's a proven thing that they are trying to take a more difficult route than it would be for a team that went to the bottom, like a Cincinnati that bounced back quickly. And that's what usually happens. So it'll be interesting to see how they handle this. I mean, there's still things, even the rest of this offseason, quite a bit to be figured out. Are they going to cave to an extension? Are they going to keep,

you know, Hunter and Zedarius to remain competitive or will they give opportunities to younger players like Patrick Jones, DJ Wanham to take over those positions to see if there's something there for the future? Will they lock themselves into another big contract with Hunter and all these things? And will Justin Jefferson sign on the dotted line. Cause if he does, then you kind of have an open door to go get your next quarterback because you're not talking about that extension with him. So a lot of moving parts remain, but we can talk about it all day.

You have an actual job. I actually have to run out to TCO performance center for something. So we've got a great conversation, though, Scott. I love getting together with you, man. I love when we used to do radio together. You always look at things in an interesting way. And as soon as I saw the Joe Cap News, I was like, I want us to get back together and talk quarterbacks.

And this was perfect, man. Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks for the platform, Matthew. I'm a big fan of Purple Insider. Thanks, man. And thanks, everybody, for listening, as always. And, you know, let's do it again. John just went old legends, passed away.

Scott, let's do it again soon, man. Well, my wife will thank you because now that I'm not on the radio anymore, she has to hear all my theories. So I need to get it on before. I should start my own podcast probably, but I don't know that I have enough energy to do that. All right, thanks, Matthew. Yep, thanks, man.