Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Approaching the offseason like the Super Bowl is the Vikings' only goal and a look at the lovable Browns

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Matthew Coller gets together with PFF's Eric Eager to talk about what the Vikings' offseason would look like if they went all-in on winning the Super Bowl and had no other goal. Would they lean into Kirk Cousins? How would they cover weaknesses on defense? How are the "hot seats" hindering these things. Plus Danny Cunningham stops by for a fun discussion on the Cleveland Browns finally winning a playoff game. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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when you want to hit the reset button, reach for the beer that is made to chill. Get Coors Light in the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collard here, and joining me is Eric Eagle from Purple Call Focus for the Hayden Doctor, as some people on Twitter have, they haven't called you that yet, but I've just now come up with it. Eric, every day you and I are pulling out our swords like that gif from whatever that HBO show was

at Vikings fans coming at you, and sometimes me as well, about the discussion over where this team is. And it seems like every day something new happens that we have to be like, oh, that's not very good. And then there's the crowd of people who says, it's okay, it's okay. What are you guys talking about? It's been a strange existence over the last couple of weeks. It has. And you know what?

Like, you know, try to stay out of it a little bit. I mean, the fact is, is like, Stefan Diggs is out here running up the score on Vikings fans. You know, Xavier Rhodes was his primary opponent the other day, you know, having a really good year after leaving Minnesota. You know, Yannick Ngakwe is freaking in the second round of the playoffs. And, you know, and there are people who think that the 7-9 Vikings team, a team that had their preferred secondary the whole year, had their, you know, starting middle linebacker.

I know Zimmer likes to lump Kendricks in the injury group, but he played 11 games, so he was there most of the year. You know, Hunter was certainly somebody that, you know, they missed, and Pierce as well, but they were going to start Shamar Steffen, who has zero career seasons with over 10 pressures, at three technique, a position that needs to get pressure on the quarterback for you to be successful. And then obviously the issues with the offense,

which is simply that they run too much. And they went, look, Justin Jefferson probably should win rookie of the year, but he didn't play the first two weeks, two games in which he weren't very competitive. So I, you know, I said this last night, and I, you know, I mean it. I don't have, you know, neither one of us hates the Vikings. Neither one of us has any animosity towards the team. But what we would like is evidence that they deserve any sort of reverence from us. Yeah, I mean, especially from my perspective of covering this team for my own business that I created this year, it would have been nicer to cover some playoff games, I can tell you that.

But I also can't be dishonest with you about some of these things. And I think what you come to with what you just talked about there is that the difference, and here's where I think it's maybe perceived as being like overly negative or overly harsh but I think is very fair to say the reason you deserve so much criticism for seven and nine is because you were so wrong about how you thought this was going to go and eight out of the 10 top guys in terms of snap count on defense have been here since at least 2018. And as you mentioned, the two corners, they were starting those guys anyway.

Oh, we lost a bunch of corners. Okay, you lost Mike Hughes. You always lose Mike Hughes. You started Holton Hill, which was never going to go well from the beginning. But the other two guys, you had planned on playing them for the whole season. And those are the two guys that make up the other two out of the eight of ten. You drafted and developed Jalen Holmes, Julio Johnson, Hercules Mata'afa is an undrafted free agent that you decided should play a lot.

And, I mean, really just you got it wrong in a lot of areas that you thought were going to go right. So I think they're deserving of the criticism, but that's not to say that, that like they should shut down the franchise or anything. And sometimes, I think what's, what's hard though is that when the head coach says we did the best we could do, I think a lot of people say like, oh, okay, well, you did have a lot of excuses. And I just pushed back on that.

I just said that like, not the best you could have done. And that's where I think that is maybe the disagreement with fans, but it's also the thing that doesn't sit with me. Right. It's like, like, it's not the best you could have done. And that's where I think that is maybe the disagreement with fans, but it's also the thing that doesn't sit with me right. It's like, look, I mean, if every fan could have guessed you need a better guard than Dakota Dozier, you probably got it wrong, right? I mean, if every fan knew Shamar Steffen wasn't going to be the answer and you should have signed Snacks Harrison, then you probably got it wrong. And I think that's my issue.

Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like the guy in the hot dog, you know, find snacks Harrison, then you probably got it wrong. And I think that's my issue. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of like the guy in the hot dog, you know, sort of suit saying like, how the hell do we get here? It's like, you know, yeah, sure. If, if, if you got planted into the Viking situation week one and you played out the string and none of the, none of the, none of the decisions prior to that were your

fault and sure yeah you had bad luck you you you had injuries to Kendricks you had injuries to Barr although I I question how much Barr is really worth to that team you had a regression from Anthony Harris you should have probably expected that given how well he played the previous two seasons and then obviously Harrison Smith's getting older I thought he had a decent season and you're you were starting rookie quarterback cornerbacks out of your own free will so like yeah i mean they didn't have the best luck in the world although if you look at those injury charts they're basically exactly where you would expect um there are teams it's not illegal to have injuries and to still do okay i mean uh you know most of the teams in here i mean the bike the

chiefs are starting mike remmers at right tackle this weekend. You know, they're not without Sammy Watkins. They're without Clyde Edwards-Alaire. Their first-round draft pick is not playing this weekend because of an injury. You know, Cleveland didn't even have their head coach for the playoff game against Pittsburgh, and they still end up winning that football game handily. You know, they don't have Odell Beckham Jr., a guy they spent their first-round draft pick and a lot of money on.

The lack of resilience was the reason why guys like you and me said that the season was not going to be as successful as the betting markets who had the Vikings as the favorite to win the NFC North, even with the Daniil Hunter news. So I don't know know i was asked earlier today what i think the solution is i don't know what the solution is given the current approach i think if if i had to say you know given where they're currently at my my hope would be that they would get an offensive coordinator who's aggressive throwing the football and that they would lean in and do what you've been asking for for years, Matthew, which is get a third wide receiver.

That is a superstar get, you know, lean into look, Kirk's a good passer. We know from fantasy football though, that as you increase a player's volume, his efficiency goes down. A lot of Kirk's efficiency is because they don't ask him to do that much. And so what I would do is say, don't ask him to do that much. And so what I would do is say, look, like let's test Kirk out. Let's make him throw the ball 700 times next year. And let's, and let's see what we have here. If he produces awesome, you're, you found something out, right? Right now, there's a ton of question marks about whether Kirk can be a quarterback of a team that leans fully on him? Well, answer those questions and give him a chance.

Do what Buffalo did. Buffalo has Gabriel Davis, Cole Beasley, John Brown, and then they add Stephon Diggs. Like that, we know everything we need to know about Josh Allen now. Leave nothing to mystery here. And this is, I think, the part that is most frustrating for a lot of fans, is that it just feels like nothing is going to really fundamentally change with where they're at. And I am in agreement. I mean, I'm very interested because the Minnesota Vikings always have this way of surprising you with something,

and sometimes it blows up and sometimes it works out really well. You know, Denny Green drafting Randy Moss when you had two top-notch wide receivers probably was quite a stunner to Vikings fans at the time, and then it works out to be an all-time great decision. And then there are other things that they've done that have been huge splash moves that have not worked out so well. But I never eliminate the possibility of the splash move. And so I'm very interested to see if they suddenly kind of find God a little bit here and go, you know what? I mean, this is probably going to be another seven to nine season if we don't do X, Y, and Z. And I agree with you

on the solution. And it's funny about how I'd like to, on this show, ask a bunch of people kind of the same question to see what the different perspectives are. But there aren't different perspectives on the Cousins situation. From the XFL coach I had on, to you, to Seth Galina, to all sorts of people. Everyone is on this consensus of, like, you've got to at least give it a shot to roll with Cousins and really buy completely in. And I think some people will say, hey, you tried that in 2018. And I would say Laquan Treadwell was your number three wide receiver in 2018. Did you really buy into Kirk? Did you really lean into the Kirk?

I don't think that you did. So, I mean, next year if you go into it and you say, you know what, we're going to throw to Delvin Cook all the time. We're not just going to run him, you know, 300 something times, which by the way, you know, if you want to be real scared, go look at the numbers that I put on the website about guys who have touched the ball as much as Delvin Cook. It's a little nerve-wracking, I'm sure. There are only like seven times someone has touched the ball since 2010, more than 350 times in a season, and he did it in 14 games. So that should be a worry. But if you were going to lean into the Kirk, you would put Cook in the slot.

Sometimes you would get a star number three receiver, of which there are a dozen in free agency this year as of right now. There are several in the draft that could be superstar players i mean at least at least give it a shot because i think that that's where you feel stuck in the mud with this team is when you say okay well you're gonna go out and you're gonna run your play actions and stuff with cousins and you're gonna improve the defense but there's not enough cap space to you know there's like an inevitability about it that people feel that I totally get. I mean, because I kind of feel the same way.

And I just wonder about with George Payton leaving and with pressure on, like really on for 2021, if there is that possibility of doing something that really catches us by surprise. Yeah. I mean, if I'm a Vikings fan, I look at it with a little bit of skepticism because I know that the goal for Spielman and for Zimmer, given the reaction to a 7-9 season, might just be another 7-9 season, right? And that was always why, and I know I was inflammatory with this, but it's why I made calls for Jameis Winston. It's why I, you know,

I wanted to look at alternatives to Kirk because the problem with this Viking scheme is if they continue to play at the way that they're like, you you're, you're not going to get to 13 and three to 12-4 and competing for the Super Bowl and the NFC by doing it the way they're doing it. Like, it's very confined, and it's very short-lived. And you look at San Francisco. San Francisco is, like, the gold standard of how the Vikings try to play football,

and they made exactly one playoff appearance under Shanahan. And when push came to shove shove they weren't good enough to win the Super Bowl and now they're back to funny exactly where the Vikings are this year at seven and nine and so like there's just this widen the distribution of possibilities give yourself a chance if Kirk becomes the next Matt Ryan or the come becomes the next Drew Brees you're 13 and three and he got a shot if he doesn't you're 3-13 and that's fine. Look at Cleveland. The Vikings fans are so worried about being Cleveland or being Detroit or being the New

York Jets. The road isn't that far. They were 3-13 before in 2011. They were in the playoffs literally the next year. They were 5-11 in 2013, 5-10-1, and Zimmer had them in the playoffs two years later. Like the downside to being really bad in the NFL is not that bad. Like, in fact, if you're really bad, you get a chance to draft a high quarterback. Yeah.

Well, and this is what I was thinking about, too. I was having a conversation with our friend Brad Spielberger about the direction of the Vikings and just getting his opinion kind of chatting with him. And, you know, he's thinking about if the Vikings went the route of the Miami Dolphins. up and I'm like it's why it's almost all blown up for you already I mean almost already there and if you decided that next year instead of being like hey let's put all the pressure on Mike Zimmer if he doesn't win this year then he's fired if you said how about we save some cap space get our bleep right with the cap because the cap and uh the Vikings eventually became not friends anymore after years of people saying look how well they manipulate it. And they do. But eventually that bill comes.

And so get right with the cap. Get right with your draft stock. And get that back together. And then you look two years down the road. And players develop way faster than we think. Oh, I don't want a five-year rebuild. Well, Miami tore it apart about as bad as it's ever been torn apart, and they were competitive this year,

and that's where the rookie quarterback might be a bust, and they still end up winning 10 games. Well, and if you increase the chance, like you trade your players to Houston, and Houston bottoms out, then you get the third overall pick. Right. You know, like you give yourself a shot to also benefit off of other teams in poor decision-making. Right.

So this is kind of where I wanted to start to begin with, even though it became more ranty. The avant-garde offseason is what I want to call it. Like, going the complete opposite direction of what we think, or at least having that discussion, the opposite direction of how we think they will go about it seems brighter than the one direction that they'll probably go, which is draft a defensive end, sign another guard who they hope turns out to be

Josh Klein and like go from there. The direction of trading cousins and drafting a quarterback or trading, or even if you don't trade cousins, trading Harrison Smith, trading Daniil Hunter, like really taking it down to the screws. You've already lost all your key pieces from the team that was here. Those guys are gone. There's only so much that Daniil Hunter and Harrison Smith can do for you. And trust me, I have as much respect for those players as anybody.

They are incredible players. That's the point. They can help somebody else who will overpay you for them. And I got a really good question from the mailbag about this. Like someone asked, am I crazy for wanting to trade Daniil Hunter? Like, no, because he's going to want 20 million a year. Look at Frank Clark from Kansas City. Look at that contract, because he's going to want 20 million a year. Look at Frank Clark from Kansas City. Look at that contract, like what that does to you. That's the kind of contract

Daniil Hunter wants, is one where there's a 20 million dollar a year cap hit. I mean, I think as crazy as it sounds, there's a really good case for moving some of these guys who are left over from the previous run. Yeah, I mean, we talked about trading Harrison Smith at this time last year. I mean, that was, you know, that was a player that other teams wanted, and you could turn into two players in a situation where, you know, you needed that. I mean, they were having issues with depth last year, and, you know, obviously, you know, Smith's a year later, Hunter is a year later, one injury in, you know, Kendrick's obviously as well, you know,

not to mention Thielen and guys who I think could garner, you know, Kyle Rudolph, you know, guys that could have garnered something on the marketplace last year are, you know, sort of no longer in that sort of, you know, they're less likely to this year. year are you know sort of no longer in that sort of you know they're less likely to to this year but you know the question that you have to ask so you talk about frank clark frank clark has been worth a tenth of a win for the kansas city chiefs the last two years each year and it doesn't matter right because they have they figured they have everything else right you can make mistakes so like v, like, Vikings fans are like, well, if Michael Pierce didn't opt out, we'd be in a good position.

If, you know, if X didn't happen, oh, everything would be changing. It's like, don't you want to build a team that's resilient to those things? Frank Clark, I messaged somebody who I know within that organization. I said, is Frank Clark hurt? And he's like, no, he's just bad. And it's like – and there's no butthurtness about it. Why? Because they won the Super Bowl, right?

Like when you win a Super Bowl, no one keeps score anymore because the only score that matters is that you won the Super Bowl. Now it's like, oh, everybody wants to pat the Vikings on the back for Jefferson, and that's great. But don't you want to be a franchise that's no longer keeping score of good picks and bad picks? You want to be Super Bowl or not, right? And that's only a handful of teams.

The handful of teams deserved it and can deal with the mistakes that were being made. And, you know, like, you want to put yourself in that position. The problem is, is they're not, like, their path to winning, and we talked about this last year, that's why we didn't like them going into the year, their path to winning is Hunter returns and is great. Harrison Smith fends off father time for one more year.

Both corners from last year's draft become good, and they find a third corner. Kendricks returns from injury and is goodrick's returns from injury and is good bar returns from injury and is good they find two guards riley reef stays off uh age for another year um and brian o'neill becomes an elite tackle and jeff that's a lot of ands right like that's a lot of ands and you know we can look back on the 2021 season and be like well three of those things didn't materialize and so I guess you know it's commendable that they made it to eight wins or whatever it's like don't you want to put yourself in a position where you make a few really sound bets and they all hit and you are a Super Bowl contender because

that's really I think the vision for people who are not that thrilled with the direction of the franchise. That's right. And I will always on the show and in my writing look at everything through the prism of winning the Super Bowl because to me there's not a whole lot else, right? I mean, you can have magical years like 2017. I wrote the book on it, and they're fun and they're unique and they're filled with different events that people remember forever. But your goal when you start out the season, you kick off that first ball

as in to go, hopefully we have a commendable season. No, it's to try and win. And so if you're looking at what the path is, great for you that you won in New Orleans. That was one of my favorite games to cover in my entire career. It might be number one aside from the Minneapolis Miracle game down in New Orleans. And the fact that I got to eat food in New Orleans maybe puts it over number one for that. So nobody enjoys this stuff more than me when you have great moments that you get to write about.

It's just that you won a playoff game as the number six seed. Congratulations. But is that like the peak season that you get to write about it's just that you won a playoff game as the number six seed congratulations but is that like the peak season that you want it's like the standard has very much changed since going into 2018 it was boy if this team doesn't go deep in the playoffs what a disappointment to oh we lost on the last day of the season to miss the playoffs and now all of a sudden seven and nine is best we could do it's's like you are so, like, not that far away. The third anniversary of the Minneapolis Miracle is the other day, and yet the goalposts have really moved all over the place. Like, they haven't for people analyzing the team, I think,

but for the way that they've sort of projected it out and told their fans, like, oh, you know, this season was fine. I mean, I just can't get on board with that. And so I guess my question, well, go ahead, go ahead. Well, and there's also these things come at a cost, right? Like I, look, we weren't talking last night about that fans shouldn't feel great about the Minneapolis Miracle or that fans shouldn't enjoy the new Orleans game last year. Those games though,

come at a cost, right? Like if you put all your eggs in the basket of a team, whose ceiling is winning one playoff game that comes at the cost of being a team like Kansas city, when they, Alex Smith was a, almost a surefire AFC West champion quarterback for that the prior to 2016-2017 the Kansas City Chiefs had never in the history of their franchise

won consecutive AFC West titles but keeping Alex Smith there and he he was making $20, $25 million a year, keeping Alex Smith there and almost ensuring yourself of a really good chance to win the AFC West was in many ways preventing you from winning a Super Bowl. And so when that became the explicit goal, you had to give up that security. And look, I loved to do the 2015 Chiefs, the 10-game win. It was so much fun. That was one of my more enjoyable stretches as a fan. But you grow up from those things as a franchise. And I'm not saying the Minneapolis Miracle, because that was kind of a fluky season in many ways.

It's sort of hard to replicate. But last year's win in New Orleans is what is basically the maximum of what this Vikings franchise is capable of. And trying to go for that again is at the expense of winning a Super Bowl. I want to remind you about our friends at Soda Stick. If you use the promo code Purple Insider, you can get free shipping at SodaStick. If you use the promo code PurpleInsider, you can get free shipping at SodaStick.com

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Code Purple Insider for free shipping. All right, so go avant-garde offseason then and tell me what the route would actually be. I mean, not the route within the realm of reality of what we think is going to happen, but just the route to actually get there. If the only thing was to win a Super Bowl and anything less than that, or at least reach a Super Bowl. I say reach. I mean, you get to that game, okay, whatever.

But, like, that's a different discussion, I guess. But, like, if winning a Super Bowl is the only thing on your mind, you would do blank. And let's add this, too, because I want to throw something out there that I have never been a huge fan of, which is coaches coaching on the hot seat with next year, the year they're under pressure. Hate it. Tell Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman that they're set for the next five years.

You guys are the ones in charge. We have seen both of them do their jobs competently and build good teams before, or get rid of them, leaving people in limbo all the time. I mean, I've never had a relationship with, you know, someone in my life like this. But I mean, I imagine if you were dating someone and they're always telling you, you know what, like if our next date doesn't go well, we're going to break up. I mean, like how are you going to feel all the time? You're going to be doing things.

You're going to be saying things to try and make that person happy and to try and keep the relationship going rather than just being who you are and and i think and i think from that perspective it's actually a little unfair to the guys in charge um not not that they haven't had their chances they have but to to put them in a spot where you're saying if you guys mess up 2021, you're out. Well, what if Kirk gets hurt? What if you lose eight games of Kirk Cousins? Well, then are they out or do they get another year? Because Kirk was right.

Like, what if Michael Pierce shows up 400 pounds? Are we going to blame that? You know what I mean? Like, how do you make that decision? I think that becomes really tough. So in this scenario, when I allow you to answer my question and stop rambling, but consider that you have job security when you're talking about avant-garde offseason. In this scenario, like they're currently in where it looks like Spielman and Zimmer are going to be the coach, I probably, as silly as this sounds, I ignore the defense this year. I go after, I mean, you know, they don't have a ton of cap space.

I'd figure out a way to sign Curtis Samuel. I'd figure out a way to sign Nelson Aguilar. I'd figure out a way to sign Sammy Watkins on a really cheap deal. I'd find a way to have four wide receivers that other teams are scared of. I'd find a way to get an offensive coordinator in the building who's a pass-first guy, who, you know, somebody who acknowledges the fact that if dalvin cook is going to last his entire contract he probably needs to be closer to 175 carries than he is to 300 carries um to me that's how and then say look like kirk's got two more years left on his deal

for better or worse um if there's a quarterback available in, like, you know, the third round that we like, you know, somebody, you know, I haven't, like, studied, you know, that many of those prospects. But, like, you know, we're going to draft a young quarterback until we like one, that kind of thing. To me, the worst thing that they could do is to look at the defense and say we need X, Y, and Z, and then look at the defense and say, we need X, Y, and Z, and then look at the offensive line and say, we need X, Y, and Z.

Those are like weak link systems that you just need to get – essentially you need to throw numbers and cheap numbers at the problem. Yes, right. If you're going to have any actual success, especially in a division that includes Green Bay, who is a 13-3 team for the last two years. Like, that's a high bar. You are going to need to compete with teams offensively in the NFL, and that's going to require you to have Jefferson as the number one, and you can't

assume Jefferson is going to be brilliant in year two. You know, the regression happens to literally everybody, so throw him out there. expect something similar to what he had, but maybe not better. Feeling, you know, let's say Juju Smith-Schuster as your number three. Somebody like, you know, maybe somebody a little older like T.Y. Hilton that maybe he wants to leave Indianapolis. But fill the wide receiver room with players that can play. Lean into Irv Smith as a concept at tight end don't earmark Dalvin Cook all the carries in the world get him the ball

in creative ways and say we are going to win by scoring 40 a game right yeah and to me to me that's how you have to do it and the problem problem is, is that is so against the moral value system of Mike Zimmer. But it's got to be, if he's going to coach the Vikings for the next five years, he's going to have to adapt. So he might as well start now. And he said in his end-of-year press conference he expects scoring to go down next year, and I just don't agree. I mean, okay, down a little, but not fundamentally down,

not like otherworldly down. Here's the thing that's crazy. Since even 2017, which was a lower year in scoring in the NFL, it's kind of a weird blip because some quarterbacks got hurt, Rodgers, Andrew Luck, you know, a couple people got hurt that year. And there was like 21 points per team per game. And this year is like 28. I mean, it's like a whole touchdown difference per team per game in the NFL now.

And, I mean, I agree on the level of, you know, bringing in multiple people at some of these positions of weakness. And if you want to fix your defense, do it with guys who are the bargain bin who can help you. I was thinking about Baltimore with this. Pernell McPhee, you and I have known he's been good for a long time. They just throw him in there for 20 snaps. Derek Wolfe, like an average proven player, throw him in there. Drake Kirkpatrick played this year for Arizona. He's fine.

Why do teams like the Ravens get Calais Campbell for a fifth-round pick and the Vikings get Kari Bedrick for a fifth round pick like be the team that gets Marcus Peters for a fifth round pick for once right right like why why are all the smart teams getting Desmond King for a fifth round pick at the trade deadline and you're stuck you know like it's not illegal to be smart uh and do the and do some of these. And I'm not saying they're stupid. What I'm saying is there are teams that get creative enough, and it's no mistake that the Ravens are in the second round of the playoffs for the second straight year, and they're getting guys like Calais Campbell

for a fifth, Pernell McPhee to your point, a Pro Bowl caliber player, you know, three, four years ago that still has some juice. They have two players that are franchise tag, and one of them they got from a third-round pick after five games of the Vikings. Marcus Peters, a fifth-round pick. Like, find these things, like, as opposed to, you know, putting all your eggs in one basket. Because here's the thing.

A, make it so that your defense being good isn't necessary for you to be good for one right be a team whose offense is so like kansas city's offense requires their defense to get what three stops a game let's get get off the field three times and it's it's okay whether you're never going to blame the chiefs like if the chiefs lose to the rounds this weekend, the blame will be on Mahomes because that's the bet they make. The defense is the defense. And that's why Vikings fans get pissed because we say things like, well, Kirk wasn't good enough against Dallas. And they're like, well, what do you mean?

Kirk did X, Y, and Z. It's like, yeah, but he didn't show up for the first half. And the fact is their defense being bad is the table stakes of the game. You're starting Chris Jones at corner. Of course he's going to whiff on Tony Pollard. Like Kirk's the guy you paid all the money to. He's got to be good the whole game. That's the bet you made.

And the same thing for the Jags game and the Panthers game and eventually the Saints game. I mean, you went into the game knowing you didn't have any defensive tackles against the Saints and any linebackers. Kirk's got to play better than he did, even if he did play well, right? And you've got to give him everything that you possibly can because you went all in on him. Exactly. That's the thing.

If you're going to go all in, don't go halfway in and only pay him and be like, well, the rest is your problem, buddy. That's not how Kirk Cousins works. But I also wouldn't think that this was a real possibility for them to get to another level with Cousins if I thought he was super bad. I don't think he's super bad. I think that he's capable under the right circumstances of having a deep playoff run because we've seen quarterbacks similar to him do it. But if you're going to make it so teams can just double team your top receivers and he has to rely on Tyler Conklin on third down then I mean it's probably going to be pretty tough

to match score for score all the time with great teams and tell me whoever wins a playoffs like all the way through the playoffs without having to go score for score I mean how many times it ever happened the 85 Bears the 2015 broncos who by the way should have probably lost the afc championship to tom brady i mean it just doesn't happen very often it really doesn't happen now there's one team left in the playoffs that that problem like the who's the least probable team besides cleveland to make it any far in the playoffs it's the rams the rams have a brilliant defense, but ultimately, like, their quarterback's not going to be good enough.

Like, just that's a bad bet to make. But here's the thing. It's also a bad bet to make to say we're going to pay a ton of money to Kirk, but to be successful, we need X, Y, Z to also occur. The thing that you want to do is say, look, we're going to pay a ton of money to – well already are paying a ton of money to kirk let's make one more bet which is if we put a ton of weapons around him he can he can get a top five offense and they can be uber successful in said offense and like then just take defense out of the whole equation you know take take

offensive line out of the whole take all those other things out of the whole equation. You know, take offensive line out of the whole equation. Take all those other things out of the whole equation, and you should be – like, I think – like, look, this is where we might have evolved over the past three years. I think Kirk's good enough that if you give him really good talent and a talented play caller, he might be good enough to get you to these situations. The problem is is they've sort of played halfway with him

and also defended on a defense, and that can win you a game in New Orleans, but it can't win you a Super Bowl. Right, yeah. So I think that everything that they do, if we look at it through the lens of making bets, what's your best bet? Is your best bet to draft a defensive end and hope he gets 14 sacks in the first year? Probably not. Probably not. best bet is your best bet to draft a defensive end and hope he gets 14 sacks in the first year probably not probably not uh is it i mean jared allen had 22 22 sacks in a year the vikings went 3 and 13 like i people overestimate how much individual defensive players change games and

and seasons and like again randy like justin jefferson made a whole like the vikings are a 3 and 13 team without justin jefferson this year like those guys are the real difference makers string a bunch of them together turn kirk into 2016 matt ryan and try that way um because defense is just a tenuous thing i mean mean, look at – I talk about Atlanta. Atlanta got a plus rookie year out of Deion Jones, Keanu Neal, and ever since then their defense has been trash. And since their offense took a small step back, they have never really contended since the Super Bowl year.

Right. Yeah, it is – I think it's the clear path, even though it feels so far away from what they'll do. But I would say this. In 2016, they, after that season, they chased Elshon Jeffrey. Now, they didn't get Elshon Jeffrey, but they already had Thielen and Diggs. And Thielen was coming off a very good 2016 season that projected to be, like, this guy's the real deal. You don't catch 70 passes and be, you know, a dweeb.

Like, you're going to be good. And they knew right away that Diggs was good. And they still looked at Alshon Jeffery. And that's the one thing that makes me think that, like we're talking about, the adding weapons, leaning into Kirk, because there's just too much to fix on the defensive side with not enough money and not enough money and not enough draft picks.

And draft picks don't work right away anyway. I mean, not like if you draft, look at the corners. People feel good about the corners, but they didn't play well this year. I mean, Dantzler was competent, but Gladney didn't play well. I still think he's got a very good chance to be a good player. It took Mackenzie Alexander three years, Trey Waynes three years, Xavier Rose. Like those guys are not going to be good enough to where you're the number one defense so what's the way and uh i mean i i am not entirely convinced that they will ignore that like that at some point

maybe you get backed into a corner enough as a front office where you're like look if this doesn't work you guys are out and maybe this is the thing that pushes them because I was saying it the opposite way, but maybe it's the thing that pushes them. And they say, all right, well, it's time to just go all in on the Kirk because one more seven to nine year and we're all fishing. So anyway, how about before we wrap up, because you do the PFF forecast podcast and you guys talk about gambling, just give me the best bet you guys do your best bet for each weekend and you debate it and argue over it and so forth what what did you land on for this

weekend of best bet uh i'm gonna go back to your roots matthew buffalo minus two and a half this week against the ravens scary that's See, I don't know, man. Did you see that kick by, by Bass? He looked like Scott Norwood. That was amazing. In the second, remember when Norwood, well, we're, we're a little too young, but I've gone backwards and watched these games in the past is because we're both like degenerate in this way. But when Norwood kicked a field goal, I believe,

against Gary Kubiak and the Denver Broncos in the 91 playoffs. The following year after he had missed. Right, and he had been brutal that year. Yeah, right. He had the sort of mental freeze up during the season, and then he came back and made the huge kick. But, you know, nobody ever remembers that. So that was a game where John Elway got hurt.

It was at Rich Stadium, right? John Elway got hurt, and Kubiak took over. Gary Kubiak went 11-12 for 136. That's amazing. Three rushes, 22 yards, and a touchdown. Kube.ubiak. Kubiak was amazing in that game. Bills, 12-point favorites at home.

And Norwood hit a 44-yard field goal in the cold to send the Bills from being up 7 to being up 10. Kubiak's score cut it to 7, but it was out of reach there. Only touchdown in the game was a Carlton Bailey interception return for Buffalo against John Elway. Against John Elway, yep. But Kubiak played really well off the bench. That bass kick reminded me, because that took that game from seven to ten, much like the other kick.

That field goal reminded me of Norwood's last kick as a bill in Rich Stadium. It reminded me of, I think it was Mike Hollis ending Jim Kelly's career with a field goal by the Jaguars to eliminate the Bills, I believe, in 96. Yeah, that was the year of the Jags and the Panthers. So the Jags and the Panthers, by the way, the 96 Jags and the 96 Panthers should be all the motivation the Vikings need. These two teams were second year in the NFL and both made the title game. So the road back is not that far.

Let's just say it that way. Yeah, I think there's a lot of evidence of that around the league, how quickly teams go from the bottom. I mean, Cleveland, right, a complete joke last year. Now they're playing Patrick Mahomes. So, Eric, always fun. I will not refer to you as the Hayden doctor anymore after that. You did miss out.

I mean, you were actually too negative on your 6-10 pick. They went 7-9. I'm sorry. Big mistake. Yeah. If you take the Vikings' one-score wins and give them only 50% of those one-score wins, they were 6 50% of those one-score wins, they were 6-10.

So I do feel like – That's not how it works. That's not how it works. If Norwood kicks a little to the left, the Bills have a Super Bowl. Matthew, they were actually more clutch than they were not clutch this year. They were above.500 in one score. Or they were better than expectation in one-score games this year. Yep, and Cousins had some game-winning drives, you know, all those things so i was too negative i i will be more positive this year i'll predict seven and

nine yeah there you go uh eric oh always fun to get together i enjoyed the avant-garde uh offseason i'm gonna have to figure out how to spell that for the title of the podcast and uh we will continue to talk throughout the offseason you sir enjoy your weekend of football and your late night podcasting afterward with george shahuri maybe actually you guys get started a little earlier this week so good for you i might get i might not zombie through monday this week there you go thanks for coming on man i want to tell you about Blue Wire Hustle, a brand new program where you can host your very own podcast here at Blue Wire. Hustle was created to give everyone the opportunity to take your podcast to the next level. Or if you want to host a podcast and just don't know where to start, Hustle is the perfect place for you. As part of the program, you'll receive personal cover art, Q&As with Blue Wire's top podcasters, access to our community Discord and

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That's BWHustle.com slash join. All right, now we welcome into the show my former co-worker and the biggest Cleveland Browns fan I have ever met in my life, Danny Cunningham. What is up, Danny? The Browns are winning in the playoffs. I don't know what to do with myself, Matthew. What do I do with my hands, right? Exactly. That's how I felt all week. If you thought 2020 is weird, the Browns got a playoff win in 2021. And I want to discuss this

from a Vikings perspective first, and then we can get into some of the other things. I forced you to make a list of the five players that you kind of wish were here to see it or wish were on the team to see them in the playoffs and having success. The guys you feel good for because they died for this along the way and they had to suffer. But let's start with Kevin Stefanski. It's clear that the Browns are better when he doesn't coach. I mean, that's obvious. No, I'm just kidding. I want to know from your perspective, because Vikings fans obviously did not watch every Cleveland Browns game and you did. What worked so well for Kevin Stefanski with this team? Basically everything they tried offensively from like week six or seven on, once they were able to get comfortable with the scheme and the whole

system, which I think he was a bit of a victim of, you know, COVID with no real training camp, no preseason game, no mini camp, all that stuff that went along with the modified offseason was, well, you have a third year quarterback that's in his third or fourth offensive system in the NFL. And you've got guys that are all trying to get on the same page doing it in games that matter. But after that, once those guys all kind of figured everything out, everything worked. The play action worked. He turned Baker Mayfield into the guy that a lot of people thought he was going to be after his rookie season, where we all know that last year under Freddie Kitchens, he

took a giant step backwards coming off a year where many people felt like he should have been the rookie of the year in the NFL. So he's turned that guy into someone that you think could maybe be a franchise quarterback. He's not, you know, Patrick Mahomes level, but he's won a playoff game in Cleveland, which is more than anyone can say since 1999. Basically, in my entire lifetime is more than anyone can say. So that's the biggest victory is that he has given hope that they have a real quarterback that can be around

for you know the next 10 to 15 years and that's what matters most in the NFL Matthew and I was thinking about this with Baker Mayfield's performance and how well the Browns run the ball that Kevin Stefanski probably arrived in Cleveland looked at the offensive line and said, what is this? I can do whatever I want with this in comparison to what the Vikings were dealing with. And explain how the offensive line was built, because I think this is the most unbelievable thing for the Vikings is that year after year, after year, after year, PFF put out where they've ranked every year in pass blocking and it

was over the last i don't know nine or ten years only one year was above 20th in in pass blocking so kevin stefanski goes there and all of a sudden he's got a great offensive line to work with i want to know how that was built because give me the model for what i should be saying that the vikings can do to build up their offensive line but also how Stefanski was able to utilize that well it's been built in a variety of different ways like Wyatt Teller was a guy that John Dorsey former GM of the Browns acquired in a trade Joel Batonio was a second round draft pick out of Nevada a number of years ago that suffered through the really lean years and then I think he was the guy that I felt the

worst for last week because you know he went through 1-15 0-16 that 3-31 stretch with Hugh Jackson as head coach and then they finally make the playoffs and he's out because he has COVID like that was just heartbreaking just for that person they invested a lot of money in Jack Conklin this offseason from the Tennessee Titans made a great signing with him in free agency Jedrick Willis was a top 10 draft pick last spring and he's been awesome as a rookie at left tackle filling in for for Joe Thomas who retired a number of years ago and I know we'll get to him a little bit later in the show but they did this in a variety of different ways because and then JC Triter's also kind of been around forever. He's not quite as long tenured as Petonio has been, but he's been a staple of that offensive line for the last number of years. So they've done it in a number of different ways, but I think been the big money in Jack Conklin or the high draft pick in Dredrick Willis, those investments have paid off. And that's given Kevin Stefanski and the Browns the ability to run the ball, to protect Baker Mayfield. If you look at

quarterbacks that get hit the fewest or the least amount in the NFL, Baker's near the top of that list. It's guys like him and Ben Roethlisberger, which is because the Steelers never let him take a five-step drop, and everything was out within two seconds, so no one just had time to get to him. And the play-action game, because you've got guys like Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt in the backfield, that teams have to respect that, because not only are those two running backs really good, but this offensive line opens ginormous holes for them time and time again. I think the biggest lesson from the Browns offensive line is that only Willis is like really super good. Like the top draft pick that you mentioned. Even Conklin when he was in Tennessee, right?

It was Tennessee. He was just, he was okay. He was good. Like a starting caliber player. But five out of five can play the game. And you don't have that one or two guys who opponents can just attack over and over and over again. And I've really come to think about offensive lines as being only as good as

your weakest link. And along this entire way, the Vikings have always had an extremely weak link almost every single year. And that's something that the Browns don't have at all on that offensive line is somebody who's just going to get crushed um you know by the other team's best player on defense I mean we saw against the Vikings teams rushing defensive ends against guards because they're like we can run right through your guards and that is not something that teams can do there and I also think that Stefanski got a real education in this system from Gary Kubiak last year. And Kubiak's system has normally, not so much with the Vikings so far, but normally throughout his history, helped offensive lines.

Like the wide zone stuff and the play action stuff and getting defensive lines moving. I think Stefanski, he's kind of taken what Kubiak had and he's advanced it in the way that you kind of hope that younger coaches do when you hire them yeah and I think it's always a good quality in a coach where you're able to put your guys in the best position possible right that's what you want to do you want to be flexible you want to be able to adjust but it can make you look really good as a coach when you don't have a lot of guys that have weaknesses on the offensive line when you're able to do so many different things like you brought up the weakest link comment and I think that is something that certainly rings true and you might say that it's Jedrick Willis being you know just a rookie in his first goal of it but if you look at what

he's not great at it's run blocking well the other four guys are spectacular at that he's not he he's a very good pass block he is great in pass throw well if he's your left tackle he doesn't need to be an all-pro run blocker if he can just keep Baker Mayfield upright that's his job because they've got four other guys and they don't need to run off tackle to the left over and over and over again they've got so many other options where that doesn't necessarily matter how did this team overcome a bad defense I mean I heard all year about how the Vikings I don't mean to be a turbo snarky here but I mean I heard all year about how well you know if you got a defense that bad you can't win but when I look at Cleveland's defense um not great not great at all. I mean, even against Pittsburgh, up 28 to nothing, you couldn't even feel completely solid.

And then they started giving up touchdowns, and, man, they might even be a punt or two away from blowing a 28-point lead in that game. How were they able to overcome all year long a defense that is that horrendous? Their best defense was their offense all year I think that's a fair thing to say when I mean yes they I don't want to say almost blew that 28 to nothing lead because they were never up by less than two possessions like Pittsburgh never had the opportunity to tie or take the lead after they were up 14 nothing so because of that I'm hesitant to say you know that they almost blew it but part of it was

they were on the field a lot the Browns scored super quick and the defense had a lot of snaps but they've been opportunistic despite the fact that they haven't been very good they have created turnovers like we saw five against Pittsburgh is why they won the game is they've been able to do that in a number of different games they're going to give up points and for my money they've got maybe three and a half good players maybe four good players on defense and last week you know at in a number of different games. They're going to give up points. For my money, they've got maybe three and a half good players, maybe four good players on defense. And last week, you know, your good defensive back in Denzel Ward was out with COVID. Miles Garrett certainly has not been the same since he had COVID earlier in the year. Sheldon Richardson's been awesome for a guy that's

30 years old and has a lot of miles. And I think Ronnie Harrison can be good. But other than that, there's just not a lot of good players on this defense. So they've been able to overcome that by scoring points is essentially what they've been able to do. They've had three halves this year where they've scored over 30 points in a single half. Oh, wow. And no one else in the NFL has done that.

They did it against Tennessee. They did it against Dallas. And then they did it this last weekend against Pittsburgh in the playoffs. That's how they can overcome it. So, yeah, they've given up some pretty big numbers. And if you look back to that Dallas game, it was the same thing for the Cowboys where they were able to come back, and essentially because the Browns go into this pre-event

where they just basically, if you're going to score, do it in four minutes. Don't do it in two plays. Same thing against Tennessee in the second half. Same thing Pittsburgh last week so yeah their point differential wasn't great they gave up too many points and they're just not talented on that end but I think part of it has to do with the situations that they've been fortunate enough to be in because that offense has been so good so uh you mentioned Baker Mayfield uh being the future quarterback for the next 10 or 15 years, you said. So you're good there. You're set there. Because I think that around the NFL,

one thing that we see is that you'll see rookie quarterbacks on their rookie contracts, and they build the team around them of fantastic offensive line weapons and all that stuff. And then it gets a lot harder down the road which I know um you know you're excited about this playoff game we'll get to so talking about five years down the road with Baker Mayfield probably doesn't matter today but um it's just an interesting conundrum that you get because he had a very good year just as someone like Jared Goff did or Carson Wentz did in the same sort of circumstance and you get into the playoffs. And then what that usually means is you're our guy, you're our franchise quarterback.

So talent-wise, he was number one overall pick, but is he on a different level from those guys? Because you've watched a lot more of Baker Mayfield than I have. I've only seen a handful of national games. Is he on a different level of talent from someone like Jared Goff where he can elevate his team? Or are we talking about things maybe getting harder after this? I think things are certainly going to get harder at a certain point when you're just

on a less talented team and you're soaking up more of that cap space as quarterback. And naturally, things are going to get harder. That's been the case for every quarterback ever, essentially. We've seen that with Russell Wilson, who I think we're both in agreement is a all-time great level quarterback. He's just that good, and we see that with him. I think what's interesting is the coach-quarterback marriage that Baker Mayfield, I think, finally has.

So in saying that Baker Mayfield could potentially be around for the next 10 to 15 years, you're pairing that with Kevin Stefanski. And I think what separates Jared Goff and Carson Wentz from Baker Mayfield here is that we knew more about them at this point in their career where, you know, Carson Wentz had been with the same coaching staff and Jared Goff has been with the same coaching staff. Baker Mayfield's on his fourth head coach and it's his third year now you have to hope and I do truly believe that Kevin Stefanski is the guy moving forward there I think that that is I don't have to worry about that for the first time ever but because of that past it's okay yes Baker looked really good as a rookie how much of that is real we don't know then he looked really bad in his

second year how much of that is real we don don't know. A lot of people are down on him. And now he's back to good. And I think that it's, you don't want to say you're evaluating him as a rookie right now, because that's not the case. He's 25 years old. You're going to have to pick up that fifth year option, if not extend him this off season. But you also have to look at it as, okay, you don't throw out the first year entirely and you don't throw out the second year entirely, but you have to take them with a grain of salt because of the situations that he was in. And I think the same can be said about the third year, but the third year is the more likely situation he's going to be in for the foreseeable future. And I think that that context

matters. Yeah, that's a good point. And if you decide to go this direction of making someone your franchise quarterback long-term, the thing that you have to do if you decide to go this direction of making someone your franchise quarterback long term, the thing that you have to do is you have to make shrewd decisions otherwise. And I think that some of these teams that win, they want to pay everyone. And the Vikings, they have done this with a quarterback that was expensive and paid everyone else and gave Anthony Barr a big contract and so forth. But Philadelphia, the same thing like when a team wins they're gonna say well we can't win without this guy we can't win without that guy and I always thought that the Patriot way the

smartest part of the Patriot way was not uh that Bill Belichick was you know I don't know rude to reporters sometimes I think it was I think it was much more that they were very shrewd as a front office because they knew they were set shrewd as a front office because they knew they were set with their quarterback and that you could replace other things. So that's down the line. Let's talk about Kansas City. They're better than your team, Danny.

Yes. No question about it. There's no debate here. Patrick Mahomes is better than your quarterback, and that team has weapons and weapons and more weapons. Feel free to copy that model vikings with getting a number three receiver who can run fast um what what are you giving this i mean how are you feeling about this uh in terms of your odds your chances i mean i think we're going to see points and i

think we're going to see fun but the other team is not only great, but also rested and playing at home. I saw this last year with the Vikings. They go down and they beat New Orleans. And it's like, OK, wow, they're rolling now. They go into San Francisco. The other team is so fresh that it's really, really tough to beat them. There's a reason why number one and two seeds usually end up in the Super Bowl over the last 10 years. So how are you feeling about this?

I mean, I'm a little bit optimistic just because I think that what the Browns can do well offensively, and the difference, the biggest difference, I think, in relating this back to the Vikings last year going into San Francisco, is San Francisco was great with their defense. Kansas City's great with their offense. Their defense is not very good. Like you said, we're going to see points. And I think that that alone gives the Browns an opportunity. Now they're going to have to get lucky. They're going to have to create a turnover or two. They're going to have to, I think Nick Chubb has to get 120 yards rushing. Kareem Hunt's going to have

to have a big impact in his return to Kansas City. But this offensive line going up against a KC defense that I think they were ranked 22nd against the rush during the regular season, that's going to be an advantage for the Browns. Just as the Browns aren't going to be able to stop Kansas City and all their weapons offensively, and the Browns don't have the same weapons on the outside that KC does, I don't know how well Casey's going to be able to stop the Chiefs. I think that the winner of this game is going to be the team that wins the turnover battle. Yeah, and that's hard to do against Patrick Mahomes because the craziest part about Patrick Mahomes is that he makes all those insane throws without ever turning

the ball over. And, you know, the one thing, though, on their defense is that they've got some really beastly defensive linemen, and if you could slow them down, you've got a chance. Because I think, you know, Tyron Matthew is a problem in the secondary, but I don't look at that Chiefs defense and say that you should be really concerned, especially their linebackers. I mean, is Derek Thomas, like like the last good linebacker for the Chiefs? It's been a long time. Like, they do not have, they do not have great players at the

second level except for Tyron Matthews. So I look at that as an opportunity. It's just, it's an uphill climb and you got kind of a bad break for who you end up facing. I mean, you earn it with the regular season record, but if you were playing Buffalo, you probably have a better chance. I mean, it's like you run into the guy. I mean, Patrick Mahomes this year, if you look at who he beat to go 14-1 as a starter, they had the toughest schedule, and he just ran through everybody. And at the end of the year, they don't play an amazing game against the Falcons, and people go, I don't know, maybe there's some problems here with the Chiefs.

I don't know, man. I think it's really in a tough spot, but I love the matchup. I love from an entertainment standpoint, from a I will be sitting back, unlike you, with no stress whatsoever watching this football game, and I've seen a lot of gambling people say, bet the over on this one. Yes. Yeah, I believe it's at 57 and a half right now and i don't know how you couldn't bet that um if you're a betting man that is i think that this is

this might be a team that scores 40 points first wins now your money is probably on the chiefs being able to do that but i think certainly both teams are capable of scoring 40 points we've seen the browns score 40 points, and the Chiefs have the best quarterback that I have ever seen play the game of football. I'm not calling him the greatest of all time here, but I've just never seen anyone better in terms of arm talent, and I don't think that's a super outlandish thing to say. So it's going to be a firework show in KC.

I truly believe that. All right, what's it like for you before we get to your list? I mean, you've waited a long time for this, I'll tell you, tell you a little story here, Danny, that when the Browns returned as a franchise, I decided that I wanted to root for the Browns to be great because I had a bunch of old card sets and stuff and old video games, really old video games where I used to use the Browns with like Vinny Testaverde, Bernie Kosar, Michael Jackson, like all this, all those Clay Matthews guys. And so when they left, I thought this is awful.

I mean, that's such a classic franchise. When they came back, I was like, you know what, I'm going to get on the Browns bandwagon. And I purchased a Tim Couch jersey to commemorate commemorate the i mean this is me at 13 years old so i guess my dad purchased a tim couch jersey for me and i was like this is the guy and this is gonna work and this is gonna be great and uh what a slog it has been since then and i remember listening on the radio to the very first game that they played, and I was like, they're back. Good luck, Ty Detmer. Go out and get it.

And they lost like 62 to nothing or something. Yeah, I think they got smoked by Pittsburgh. It has been a long haul for your team to have reason not only to believe that you could be good this year but for the foreseeable future. Yeah, and I think that, you know, if I could bottle up the emotions as a, that I felt as a fan on Sunday, particularly, I think it was after Kareem Hunt's second touchdown when the Browns went up 28 to nothing with a couple of minutes left in the first quarter. And you're just like, oh my God, they, they are going to do this. Like this is, it felt like in that moment, that 1-15 and 0-16, just that run of that really terrible, terrible football sort of felt worth it in a sense.

Not because, you know, the process was paying off because we are a ways removed from that. But it just felt worth it to finally see them win a playoff game, especially when it was know in pittsburgh where they had not won a game since 2003 in the regular season where that was the the scene of their last just nuts like what yes that was the scene of their yes and that was the year that they went into heinz field in the playoffs and kelly hokum threw for over 400 yards and the Browns blew a I think they were up 36 to 24 33 to 24 whatever in the fourth quarter and they lost the the Dennis Northcutt dropped past the drop interception that happened it was just all those things felt worth it for a little bit Sunday night sure we have certainly experienced far more misery than joy, and that's not even close.

But just how great that joy felt. It felt like everything was worth it. Yeah, and if you're a Vikings fan, I mean, you've had many shots at it, at least, unlike the Browns who are getting basically their first shot at it here. So let's get to your list. I basically laid it out for you that, hey, pick five guys who you kind of wish they could be here to see it. I mean, not that they're dead, but just like, you know. All these guys are still alive, I assume, watching on TV.

Right. You know what I mean, though, like that they could be a part of this or, you know, the good players along the way or the guys that you would feel good for watching the Browns be in the playoffs so uh I can give you my list as well if you want to go back and forth why don't you start out with your list yeah and I did this more so about guys I want to see feel good for not necessarily oh the Browns are weak at this spot although some of them some of them certainly fill that need um but I'll start it off and this is in no particular order but phil dawson was a guy that he's on my list as well he's a kicker so if you don't necessarily understand browns or browns fandom or super into everything this is gonna sound crazy but phil dawson was a

guy that was i mean the second or third best Cleveland Brown of that era, which is insane to say about a kicker, but he truly was. And he's a guy that was beloved in Cleveland. I don't know how many NFL cities there are where in the team shop, you could go and actually buy the kicker's jersey, but Cleveland was one of them. That was a thing in Cleveland for a long time. And I know he ended up in Arizona for part of his career at the end in San Francisco and got to experience a little bit of success but I think he's someone that him being in Cleveland for a playoff run would be a storybook thing yeah well him being on my list shows you that I did indeed try to cheer for the Cleveland Browns when I uh you know and I would play with them on all the Madden's like Madden 2000 and all that with Phil Dawson is their very long time kicker.

And speaking of which, so, of course, Tim Couch is on my list because of what he meant to like the they've got the top quarterback and they're going to build around him. And I always felt like he could have been better if they had a decent team. So I'll move on from that because I already mentioned him. Kevin Johnson, who is, I believe, fifth all-time in receptions in Cleveland Browns history, a great player that just, you know, it all went to waste. A great wide receiver who was a big part of everything they did. And I remember him unceremoniously being cut because he didn't block in a game or something like that. And it was like, this is classic Cleveland Browns.

But Kevin Johnson was an unheralded, really great receiver for a time. And of course, just got no attention because Cleveland Browns. Yeah, he was a name that I thought of. And really that wide receiver group of that early, you know, new Browns era with him and Quincy Morgan and Dennis, Dennis Northcutt. And I, it was just a fun wide receiver group. And they weren't all particularly great, but they were, they were fun. They were a group that as part of my childhood,

I remember there was the Hail Mary against Jacksonville that Tim Couch threw that I think Quincy Morgan was the one that came down. Like that group is a group, a core group of guys that I thought of. And Dennis Northcutt is someone that didn't make my list, but he had that dropped pass in the playoff game against Pittsburgh back in 2003. And he, he was a fun receiver. He returned punts and kicks as well, kind of did everything. He was almost a little Josh Cribsy before Josh Cribs,

if that makes sense and we'll get to him in a minute. But he was, he was another guy that I thought of just that whole group was, was really a great group to watch. Okay. Who's next on your list? Next on my list is Joe Showbert, which is now in Jacksonville. He was sort of a, he was sort of a victim. He was a guy that, you know, he was a former walk on the, at the University of Wisconsin, just the typical Wisconsin story that we have just been hammered over and over and over again. Like, oh, did you know that guy was a walk-on at first? Like, he's from Wisconsin.

Right. They don't even recruit in Wisconsin. They're just all walk-ons who are so gritty they make the team. Except for offensive linemen. I think they have 85 scholarship offensive linemen. And then everyone else is a walk on it at some point that is the wisconsin way but he ended up signing with jacksonville um which obviously now is not a great situation either right and i actually remember a tweet from earlier this year

where they won week one against indianapolis and a reporter like quoted joe showbert and said it was the first time that he had won week one in his entire career which is true it's sad and it's true he was someone that was really kind of the heart and soul of the Browns defense for the 1 and 15 the 0 and 16 the really lean years and then he leaves and they immediately get good so that's that's something where you kind of wish that if he weren't as if maybe if he were a little bit better and not quite as high-priced, I agree with them letting him walk this past offseason or two offseasons ago, whenever it was, but you kind of wish he could be here for it.

Okay, I went with another linebacker too, DeQuell Jackson. DeQuell Jackson used to always lead the league in tackles, which was probably just meant you didn't have the ball very often, and he was the guy. But for a little while there, people talked about DeQuell Jackson as being like the centerpiece of this Browns defense. And, look, I couldn't really pick him out of a lineup. I just know that he always had great Madden scores,

and he was like the only guy on the Browns who had good Madden grades, and he always had good statistics, and he would get some sort of accolades for just being the one guy who could play on their defense so good for you to quell Jackson yeah you kind of think of him in that linebacking group and he didn't necessarily play with all these guys but like a Barkevious Mingo was a similar way where he had a lot of tackles he wasn't necessarily very good but he had a lot of tackles because the Browns needed needed somebody to make tackles and right he what one of the guys that Paul Jackson did play with that didn't make my list but I think is an interesting name to

throw out is Phil Taylor oh yeah he was he was a a good defensive lineman but he always was sort of a black eye on that regime of Browns football because he was the guy that they essentially got for the pick that got Atlanta Julio Jones. Phil Taylor was never a bad player. I think he might've made a pro bowl at some point. He was a good defensive lineman, but he wasn't Julio Jones. And because of that, it was, he was always looked down upon where, you know, he deserved to see some happiness because that wasn't his fault. It wasn't his fault the Browns made that move, and he still turned out to be a good player.

Right. Was that the next guy on your list? He was not the next guy on my list, but I wanted to bring him up. The next guy on my list is Josh Cripps, where he's another one of those guys that's kind of on the Cleveland Mount Rushmore for just being a good player when they were bad, and he, I know for some some time held return records for most kickoff return touchdowns which isn't a thing anymore because the rules have changed and we don't return kickoffs and we very rarely return punts and he was kind of a guy that just he was he went to college at Kent State it kind of had a little bit of he's one of us vibes that I know you know very well up in Minnesota because

that's very much a thing um I just you wish he could have experienced more success uh Josh Cribs I've got this up here so I love Eric Metcalf like one of my favorite players of all time and Josh Cribs has 10,000 kick returning yards Eric Metcalf who i thought was one of the great returners of the era only had 2800 which sort of tells you just how much uh josh cribs was one of the all-time great kick returners i missed them like cordero patterson is basically the only one left in the nfl that's really returning kicks but the dante halls tamaric banovers like uh mel gray like from back in the day and josh cribs was kind of the last of a dying breed and was an unbelievable player and never really became much of an offensive threat though right I mean he just it's so it's so funny with these guys like even Devin Hester where they

would try to put him on offense sometimes and it's just that doesn't really doesn't really qualify one year though he ran for 381 yards in 2009 so i think i think cribs could have been sort of a victim of the era he played in yeah and i think this could be said true about maybe devin hester maybe some of those guys where you know if they were in a more creative offensive era such as today's game what would they look like because i think that's a fair question to ask he would be a better player in 2021, you know, than he was in 2010. I totally agree. So my last on my list, because you took Phil Dawson for me, I thought I was being clever with that, is... He is beloved. I'm just going to go all the quarterbacks along the way. I mean, because it's just, how do you

pick one? So like Kelly Holcomb, of course, but even to the guys who got you there by tanking, Deshaun Kaiser, Kevin Hogan, you could go back to Seneca Wallace and Trent Dilfer and Jeff Garcia. And there's just like all these amazing names of people who played quarterback for the Cleveland Browns during this time. It is an unbelievable list. And I love it because now you're finally there. You've got your actual quarterback and you had to go through all of this to get there.

So I wish that all of these quarterbacks could all get together in a room. Not that I want anyone getting together in a room these days, but I mean, wouldn't it have been great if they could have had like all the former Browns quarterbacks gather to watch this game or be at this game and honor them um in sort of ironic and hilarious fashion but they all own a piece of this yes I I essentially what I am envisioning here by you putting the quarterbacks on is just that infamous jersey. It's a Tim Couch jersey. And it has then it has a nameplate of every quarterback that started from Tim Couch all the way until a century Tyrod Taylor, who was the last one before Baker Mayfield.

Right. That's right. That's essentially who you're talking about. And that infamous jersey is, you know, no longer up. It's been retired. I know exactly the building that it's in, where the mannequin was with that jersey in downtown Cleveland, but that's just no more. And you do feel for those guys because they all essentially shed blood for

the Browns to be where they are now. And especially the 2017 group of that, where it was Deshaun Kaiser and Cody Kessler and Kevin Hogan. None of them belonged in the NFL. None of them are presently in the NFL, although I do think that I saw Deshaun Kaiser was on Tennessee's practice squad to try and emulate Lamar Jackson last week, which very clearly did not go well. No, no, it didn't. But that's just that's who the Browns were for such a long time. You have I have the list up here of a lot of these guys.

Luke McCown and Ty Detmer, Austin Davis. I mean, you've got to go back a ways for Jake DeLome back in 2010 briefly. Doug Peterson in 2000. Luke McCown, by the way, played the worst football game I've ever seen. And just since we're here and doing this i'm gonna call it up while you give the next guy on your list because i forget what year this was but he played a game against buffalo in which i think they ended up with negative passing yards for the whole game with luke mccown starting and i'm gonna look i'm

gonna find the box score here while you give the uh guy on your list. So the next one on my list isn't particularly because this guy is that good anymore. He's still in the league. He's Joe Hayden. You know, he got cut from Cleveland as a bit of a cap casualty when they were obviously trying to tank and didn't want to pay him money to make the defense a little bit better. He's in Pittsburgh now. He was, I believe, part of the 1-15 team, but was cut before he was on the, he was not on the 0-16 team. Signs with Pittsburgh. And if you would have told Joe Hayden that when he, the day he was cut and then the Browns go 0-16,

that the Cleveland Browns would win a playoff game before Pittsburgh Steeler Joe Hayden ever would. Yeah. Who would, who wouldn't look at you like you were crazy? Because that's what happened. And Hayden didn't play because of COVID this last week but he thought he was going to greener pastures and yeah he's played in a playoff game and he's been on successful teams since he left the Browns but the Browns are now further along than where he is and I think that he's someone

that Pittsburgh's probably going to end up parting ways with this offseason as a result of another cap casualty but he was someone that did embrace the city of cleveland that loved being in cleveland brown during the time that he was there and there was a time where he actually i do think was a pretty strong cornerback but just you wish a guy like that that was right at the end and almost got to see a turnaround and then was jettisoned out of town you feel for him a little bit that's kind of the theme of your list is like guys are almost there for the turnaround and then they exited. So I was right. This game is – this Luke McCown game is from, what, 2004, okay?

And they ended up with minus three net passing yards because Luke McCown was sacked 70 times – or I'm sorry, not 70. He was sacked seven times. It must have felt like it. Seven times for 70 yards loss, and he threw for 67 yards passing. So minus three passing yards in a 37-7 loss. He went eight for 20 with a touchdown, two picks, and ended up actually benched for Jeff

Garcia briefly in that game. So, or maybe Jeff Garcia got hurt. Actually, this could be Jeff Garcia got hurt and McCown came in anyway. So yeah, they had a game where they had minus, like negative net passing. Let me ask you this because you have a very clear, extensive football knowledge brain. Are there any other franchises that have had games started by both Luke and Josh McCown? I don't think so because Luke, he did bounce around to teams but not as many. Like Josh was with way more teams. Luke was only with Cleveland.

Tampa Bay actually would be the team. Yeah, so and maybe even Jacksonville. But Tampa Bay, they both started for Tampa Bay actually would be the team. Yeah, and maybe even Jacksonville. But Tampa Bay, they both started for Tampa Bay. Yeah, that's good. I mean, quite a list, truly. Good for you, McCowns. Luke McCowns' career, 2-8 with a 71 quarterback rating, and he was in the NFL for 10 years. That's amazing.

How much money did he make? That's amazing. I don't have it right here. Because I would have to assume that's a lot of money per win in the nfl yeah that might be the most money per win in nfl history yeah this doesn't have his contract information for his career uh like baseball reference does but it's got i mean yeah it's got to be in like the tens of millions of dollars for winning two games in the nfl it's a good gig if you can get it. Well, anyway, Danny, it was great to catch up with you. Or wait, did you have one more? I do. I'm sorry. The one I think that I wanted to say

for last, because it just, it has to be mentioned is Joe Thomas. Right. I think we, we would probably agree is the greatest Brown since they came back in 99. And the, like he, he's been out of the league for a couple of years and it's only, that means it's only a couple years before he's in Canton, essentially. He was that good. His last year was the 0-16 year, and that's how he went out. Obviously, he's doing things with the NFL Network and still is a Browns homer there, but you wish that he could take the field for them,

even though that's not a place where they need an upgrade particularly right now. But you just wish that he was so good that he deserved to be on a winning team. And it never happened after his rookie year. Yeah, and it's too bad the injuries took him, too. His career ended on an injury, and he said later that he hadn't been practicing for like three years, basically, because he was so beat up. And that is too bad because he is truly one of the great players i think of all time at that position and just unfortunate that they couldn't figure out so many other positions around joe thomas and now he looks

like you he's lost a bunch of weight and um although he's six seven and that's we could use him i do get a rec league team yes i do get tweets occasionally of screenshots of him on NFL Network, especially right after he gets a haircut. People are like, is this you? No, it's Joe Thomas, guys. Yeah, you have a lot of doppelgangers, actually. I mean, P.J. Fleck is probably the closest. Well, and there's that guy in the WWE, I think Baron Corbin.

I get him a lot. But, yeah, him, Joe Thomas, and P.J. Fleck are the ones that I certainly can't disagree with. Well, this is really fun for Joe Thomas. I like to joke like one-time Viking Joe Thomas because there was briefly some rumors in 2016 that he would come to the Vikings. Maybe they would have made the playoffs that year. Anyway, so, well, Danny, it was come to the Vikings. Maybe they would have made the playoffs that year anyway. So Dan, well,

Danny, it was great to catch up. It's been a long time since you and I have done any type of broadcasting or basketball together, by the way, since you're back there in Cleveland. So make your way up here so we can ball again. And I wish you the best of luck. You as well,

Matthew. I'm really hoping to get back to Minnesota. You know, once we're allowed to do things again at some point in our lives, we will see. Well, Matthew, I'm really hoping to get back to Minnesota, you know, once we're allowed to do things again at some point in our lives. We will see. Well, best of luck to you and your Cleveland Browns. And we'll do it again, man. Absolutely.

Love being on.