Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - AP's Dave Campbell sees light at the end of the Vikings tunnel

Episode Date: October 4, 2025

Dave Campbell of the AP joins the show to preview Sunday's Vikings-Browns game in London. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody. Welcome into another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fanduil, Matthew Collar here, along with Dave Campbell of the Associated Press. And we figured that since we remained in the United States of America through this week, that we would do a little porch pod. We're in the backyard, actually, because there's a little construction on the street, but it is an absolutely beautiful Minnesota fall morning. This is as good as it gets for fall, Dave. I played golf yesterday. We're out here. It's like 72 degrees in the morning. It's wonderful.

Yeah, although I'm going to play my Minnesota card right now and I'll say, it might just be a little too warm. Yeah, and then we're really having like a conversation by the porch in the morning. Like neighbors, well, it could be a little too warm. Well, I don't know. You won't want to say that in January, Dave. I know, exactly. You know what's coming soon.

Well, one of my favorite things to do with you, Dave, when we get together, is talk about this team's history. You've covered the team since what year? 2000. I guess 2001 being my first full season. I mean, yeah, we're talking about a... If you're doing the math at home, that's a quarter century. Quarter century. And I followed them closely growing up in the 80s and 90s, too, so...

Well, you could do a lot worse for the jobs than spending a quarter century talking about football and writing about football. very true so I want to go through the situation that we're in but try to talk about it through a slightly different lens because naturally I've spent the entire week talking about this two and two football team JJ McCarthy Carson Wentz Kevin O'Connell but I feel like I'd like to try to learn more about it understand it through the lens of the history of the Vikings so I like to go back with seasons and say well this reminds me of that because now I have this is a making a decade for me on this beat. So I have that amount of experience, and I have felt a lot like 2016 with all the offensive line injuries and a quarterback that we didn't expect to be in when there were high expectations for a young guy. Is that a good place to start, or is there somewhere else in the quarter century that this has reminded you of?

No, you're going to be delighted to know that in doing a little bit of thinking prep for the episode my mind went to 2016 for the listeners you know matthew uh thinks 2016 is the most egregious dramatic year in the history of uh pro sports because it was his first year here so we like to give him a little hard time about yeah you know there were some other things that happened in viking's history too you know but in fairness you know that was uh that was definitely up there when you had a head coach um needing emergency eye surgery in an office coordinator quitting midstream and of course you know the franchise quarterback's knee exploding in a non-contact drill and practice i mean right there is about all you need but

um you know of course kind of one of the secondary or third you know third level storylines as that season kind of unfolded in a in a troubling way for the team was uh running out of you know viable offensive linemen and poor poor uh sam bradford you know who had a I mean, a very brief, but, you know, a very productive time here as a passer. They certainly gave up a lot to get him after Teddy's injury. But gosh, you know, he was not an mobile quarterback by any means. And boy, he struggled to find time. I'm sure Carson Wentz could meet up with him for a beer at some point

and commiserate a little bit 10 years later. But that my mind did start to go there. As Matthew said, we're back home, so we're just kind of more getting the practice reports like any other fan. But once you saw Michael Juergens, a DNP for two straight days, thinking of the, you know, realistic possibility of having to move Blake Brandall at the center, which would probably complete the trifect, or the, yeah, the trifective for him on his career on the line, tackle guard center. And then, you know, knowing if he would have to move.

then they'd have to plug in. Joe Huber, I think, is the next man. Yep, on drafts. So we're getting into 2016 territory pretty quick for the offense line. The biggest issue, of course, that year was the left tackle. You know, they had swung and missed with the T.J. Clemmings pick. And poor Jake Long was sort of fallen out of retirement or semi-retirements. And he gave it a go, but his poor body just wouldn't hold up.

that year. And he played actually pretty well? He did, yeah. I remember he's getting foggy. I can't remember how many games he lasted, actually. It was only a couple, and he got hurt again in Washington. And that injury was kind of really bad. But throughout that year, it was

so much shuffling. At one point on Thanksgiving Day, I think, it was Willie Beavers ended up getting in there. If you remember, Beavers had been the fourth round draft pick who was the highest pick to get cut. from all the draft that year. He got cut out of camp, and they brought him back on the practice squad.

Western Michigan guy. Yes. And then he got elevated for that game, but they hoped that they never had to play him. And then more people got hurt because they had started the season with Andre Smith and Matt Killeel. Yes. Smith, Big Free agent signing lasted two games hurt his knee. And they signed Alex Boone.

And then Brandon Fuscoe was at right guard. And I think both Boone and Fusco got hurt at different times. Yes. Joe Berger was playing center. he, I think, got hurt at some point. And maybe that was when Nick Easton had to come in and play center. If you remember, there was an issue with moisture on the football and a fumbled snap or something that happened. I mean, it felt very much, yeah, very much the same way as this where guys are shuffling different positions.

Our friend Jeremiah Searle is playing right tackle and left tackle and all over, you know, just there was so much going on. And yet I still feel like it's been even worse this year because when you, you lost Matt Khalil and Andre Smith, the guys who replaced them were also bad, but it's not like those guys were good. In this case, you're losing some very good players, even just for a couple

of games. It was so obvious when Darrow saw was out, the first two games slow playing his return, and then Donovan Jackson, you know, missing last game, he's he had been showing a lot early on and now who knows how it's going to be with, without

O'Neill for a game or two at, you best case scenario for that for his timeline and then Ryan Kelly of course you know yeah so those are that's a great sort of contextual point to make there may have been more maybe more injuries longer lasting that season but the quality drop-off this year has has been severe and you know looks certainly dicey in the near term I think they're fortunate of course that they don't have any season-ending injuries going on like Darry saw last year, right? So, you know, I think there's still plenty of reason to think optimistically

about the trajectory of the offense just because, you know, I think the record is going to be pretty ugly at the end of October. There's probably no way around that. But, you know, if they can, it's still a long season. There's still plenty of runway for them to get those guys healthy and kind of playing the kind of that optimal starting five for actually one game. They have not had that yet. Maybe five.

Let's set the bar a little bit low. I mean, when Juergens goes out, you're like, really? Yeah, really? I mean, the young backup center, at least you had somebody that you had worked with for a couple years since drafting him for two years to have him ready behind Ryan Kelly. But he's a sixth round pick who's kind of a guard center combo. I mean, you know, I think it sounds like they see some potential there and think relatively high of him, you know, as a guy. But, like, you know, that's a, that's a pick where you draft backups at best. And so when they're forced into extended action, it's no fault of him or even no fault of the team for, like, drafting him.

But then you start to get exposed. That's how the NFL works. sincerely this season is already kind of showing a lot of the fault lines with some of the depth questions we thought in training camp that cornerback and quarterback and receiver were the big depth problem areas they survived wide receiver fine addison's back they got feeling right quarterback is still kind of i think you know lencer just seems like it's probably as good as they could have done for uh for a back of Up there, it's, you know, makes you wonder why they didn't just go down on that road back in March or April, but I guess that doesn't matter. Yeah. Maybe he wanted to spend the summer with the fam. Yeah, right. And at his age, you'll go blame him, right?

Right. Exactly. Six teams and six years. Like, all right, guys, let me enjoy the summer. And you let me know where I should show up come of September. I don't think he expected to be in by week three. Yeah, exactly. I think that worked out pretty well for him, even if it's a little bit of a slog right now with his, with his past protection.

but anyway cornerback that's actually the one position they've stayed healthy so far who knows how that'll go but the lack of depth on the offensive line is just glaring right now

and you know I don't know it's I don't know how you could even necessarily second guess well you know they upgraded all the starting spots or three of them and like who else would have been available to upgrade the depth spots

I mean, I think like Brandel is a solid backup, and maybe they whiffed on Justin's school. I mean, we'll see how he holds up in a couple more games on the right side. But it's not like there's guys out there. If they're available, it means other teams didn't want them, you know, and they limited amount of draft picks to really fill in those spots. So, you know. And school had played fine for Tampa Bay last year.

Right, right. It seemed like a perfect kind of guy to go get for that swing tackle rather than just, you know, rolling the dice with Walter Rouse, who I don't think is anywhere near ready for that kind of role yet. Right. Otherwise, you would have seen them. Definitely. And the point just being about those tackles and centers is, well, why didn't you have a better this? Why didn't you have a better that? And I just would like a list submitted of all the available backups and then look at their histories and show me where this was going to be a lot different.

I mean, school had played average, at least by his PFF numbers, a little above average for Tampa Bay, and then he maybe comes into an offense. And I think it's worth wondering about an offense that really strains the offensive linemen, I think, where you're talking about a lot of dropbacks, a lot of pass protection, and a lot of time that's usually required for the quarterback. As I was watching Thursday night football, I couldn't help but notice Mack Jones had the ball coming out really fast. And at the end of the game, I saw NFL Next Gen tweet this out that Jones had thrown 28 of his 34 completions under 10 yards. That is just not Kevin O'Connell's offense. And a few people have asked like, hey, why does Garrett Bradbury have a better PFF grade this year? Why does Ed Ingram have a better PFF grade? And I think part of the reason is because this is a difficult offense to block for, which is why you spent a first round pick on a guard, 17 mil on another guard, get Ryan Kelly.

who's one of the best past protectors of the last decade, extend Christian Darius. Like, it's not like they didn't know this. Exactly. I mean, I think that in 2016, they were a little bit negligent about, like,

here's T.J. Clemmings, once again, in a position to play, hey, let's just throw whoever at right tackle for $5 million bucks or whatever. And that was the Zimmer teams where they were just doubling down on the, on the defense cap-wise. And they had a big number with Adrian Peterson.

And, um, yeah they were just investing on the defense side but in this case they plan for it and i think that that's where some of the criticism for kevin o'connell and how he's calling plays where it's a little bit tough to balance because i think that there's some of that is fair where you get in third and eleven with cars and wince and you have three backups in and you're still asking him to go down the field and yeah throw it past the sticks is just a hard thing to do for somebody like that in that scenario and at the same time that you design an entire offense starting back in March and

April and May where you've set this all up right it's supposed to be J.J. McCarthy's offense who is really good at throwing between 10 and 20 yards like that's really his thing so all these routes that you trained everybody on and you taught them in the playbook and everything else are designed to be blocked up and then make those throws to your open receivers who excel in that area and then all of a sudden you're supposed to wave a magic wand I mean Kyle Shanhan's offense has always been that across the middle of the field, underneath stuff, swinging passes to Christian McCaffrey. So when they have those injuries or you have a backup quarterback in, I think it's a lot

easier, whereas now with Carson Wentz, you're kind of asking him to play hero. And I think that the early game adjustments were good. But if the game went along, then it's more and more you have to straight drop back pass time and time again against Pittsburgh. So the game script matters a lot there. But let me circle back to 16 because I don't think that Mike, despite, you know, getting, at least in the playoff race with all those injuries and everything else, I don't think from an emotional perspective, Mr. Zimmer handled that season the best way or actually any season, the best way, including 2017. They went to the NFC championship, but we still felt like that he had, you know, hammered Case Keenum every week along the way. Kevin O'Connell, I think, is much, much better built for this.

But are they built for this from the perspective of his in-game type of coaching, from the play-calling thing comes up a lot? I think he is okay with this from week to week to be able to not lose his mind and start assaulting players in the media. That would be quite shocking. But how do you think that he's just overall built to handle them through, some serious adversity early in the season to get to the other side of them still being competitive this year. It's a great question and a really kind of critical hidden element to this team

and even just the overall ability of this coaching staff roster to not just overcome the early injuries this year, but what's their ultimate trajectory going to be here in the two or three year window? I think it's almost like you have to look at it'll come. like two different people, I guess a lot, it wouldn't be unique to head coaches, you know, who have significant play calling duties. Ben Johnson would be one quickly comes to mind where guys hired for the offensive mind as much as being the leader of men. But I think El Connell, you know, as we observe and I don't really have any kind of doubt about

him being the right, like, temperament and perspective and, you know, leader for the team through good, bad, and, you know, middle kind of moments of the season. I mean, you know, the NFLPA report cards, all those things, just the way we watch, you know, he can fire up, you know, in a postgame, like, speech to the team after a win or whatever. but you know he doesn't he's he's got the mind of a former player and he knows what clicks he's young enough to to not having that old schoolism it clearly has he never speaks directly on it but clearly he you know even going back to his time at san diego state he he knew what was not cool you know for maybe how treatment from older players or certain coaches and even on the NFL and you know mentioned sometimes uh kind of empty promises he made about it was given about playing time all that stuff factors in i think he's absolutely the right

kind of coach leader but but then there's the he's also the offensive coordinator you know for lack of a better term and um i think i i see this really being this is really testing him in much the same way this is a test for j j mccarthy like in the development of the quarterback um this is also a youngish coach still who's kind of decision-making or philosophy or what have you is really being tested here and sort of in the way that you alluded, how he calls a game. I mean, he's a master at designing plays

to get receivers open on a regular basis. And when defense coordinators are really smart and there's great athletes and there's not that many ways you can actually do the things within the rules, but he just continually helps have Justin Jefferson is one of the best ever and he's got other good receivers downfield too but the way he continually comes up

in new ways to beat coverages and get guys open is amazing but the other half of that I think we started to see this unfold down the stretch last year especially in games when Darnold was getting sacked especially the last couple and the protection is breaking down for him getting guys open

20 yards down the field does no good if he only has two seconds to throw so he the thing I think I even just think back to a preseason press conference or sort of

musing that O'Connell was sort of going down about is sort of in the context of the running game and knowing with a rookie quarterback that you really need to become a running team and I think he even said something like I know it can be a challenge for me like to run

the ball you know three times in a row but he he knows I think what he has to do with this team and probably now it's it's even more in his face like that he with all these backup linemen he has to to just let go of the of the fun stuff you know the the bright shiny object of the the 25-yard deep cross and all those ways that he can design a really big splashy play in favor of the things that are going to work for them right now and I think each game probably even each series tests him right because he knows that he's got Justin Jefferson like I can drop this play and with these guys they're going to be open and I have a quarterback who could get it there but with the way these these games

flows are going and the way that the susceptibility of the of the line right now to to really good fronts and really good uh uh sorry my ACU and it goes on right and you're making a great point in the AC unit fires up so you you

the beginning of the Steelers game I think you indicated they started that first drive like real quick yes great way to get Jefferson involved right away and that was pretty effective they drive stalls out but like okay they can this is the way they can do it and you know then game flow changes and situations flip and then they had to get out of that.

But I would almost argue they were never down so much that they couldn't have kept that up. I think of it, how about this for a metaphor with like a driver who has road rage problems and you are aware of it. You're a self-aware enough person to say, I have road rage problems. And you get in the car and you think, today's the day where I'm not going to get mad behind the wheel. And I'm going to play some nice calming Sarah McLaughlin music and I'm going to be Zen behind the wheel. And the first person that cuts you off, you go crazy and start screaming and flipping them off. And then you get and you're like, oh, you know, I shouldn't have done that.

And it's felt like that at times with O'Connell where it's like he made a joke about us criticizing him for not sticking with the run after the Cincinnati game. And he said like, I bet you guys felt a cold wind or something up there when I ran four times a row. But it was like you're up 48 to 10, man. I mean, yeah, you probably should be four times in a row. The real challenge is when you're down 14 to 6. And Carson Wentz is your quarterback. And I

know, and the problem is from that game in Pittsburgh is that they were open all day. Jefferson was open. Addison was open. You could have thrown anybody you wanted to. Naylor, yeah. Right. I mean, you watch that tape back and you go, my goodness, there's guys there. But if you can't block it up

and your quarterback can't find it, it's really meaningless. So you need to continue with what you were talking about. But it felt like he did the road rage thing where he was, they were down 14 to 6. And this was the, to me, the turning point in the entire game, where they get to the other side of the field. And Mason has three good runs. And Pittsburgh is sort of feeling like a little bit wobbly there. And then it's three past plays that I didn't like any of them. And it ends up getting picked off. And then it's sort of on from there. And then you're playing from way behind. And I guess that is the biggest question with O'Connell.

Can you play in any other way? Like Quasi Adolfo-Mence at the beginning of the year said that they wanted to build a team that could win a lot of different types of fights. Well, that team now has a black eye over here and a broken left arm and everything. You literally can't win different

types of fights. You kind of have to win one type of fight as long as this is the roster that you're playing with. But I want you to give me who the closest Vikings coach is to O'Connell. And there's not a lot to work with. I mean, they've had like a lot of coaches because then I want to get to the J.J. McCarthy situation and historical comps there. Is it, is it Denny because

the offense is good, but they can never quite get over the hump? Or is there not one? Well, I mean, the truest answer is there's not one. There's just, I mean, you know, a 65-year history And you're only got, it's roughly 10 coaches. And so, as, and games, the game of all was pretty significantly from, you know, in one era to the next. But I would say, going back to the sort of kind of typecasting him as two different people in this job, I would say, O'Connell, the coach and like the leader is, the closest thing I'd think would be Leslie Frazier. yeah and then of course leslie was a defensive guy who was still kind of forcing a scheme at that point was not working very well the personnel wasn't matching up either um they were getting their two deep safeties which is so funny is come back around yeah they're like leslie's probably thinking hey like what was the problem here but um that's scheme wise they were kind of lagging behind um and had a lot of holes on on that defense as well

2013, especially his last year. So probably O'Connell, the offensive mind, the quarterback teacher, it would have to be Denny Green, the closest thing you could come up with. I mean, honestly, he and Brad Childress, well, and Jerry Burns, are the only other coaches Vikings have ever had with an offensive background. Well, I guess Norm Van Brockland, but we're getting pretty deep in the weeds if we're going to try to break down. If Patrick Royce's listened to the podcast, then maybe he could bring the Van Brockland takes. And you know, it's funny.

One of the many, many quotes that Denny got kind of made fun of was, it's a system. And so the context for that was after they had changed over. I believe after the 98 season, I think it was then. But it was somewhere in there when they had a very effective offense and the quarterback was in flux, which was constantly under Denny. And, you know, really for this, almost this entire franchise's history with about three exceptions, like Cousins and Culpepper briefly and Targinton. But anyway, that sort of, he was sort of, he was sort of,

of getting defensive about kind of questions about what you're leaving yourself open to struggle with with quarterback issues when after 99 or you know they plugged in Jeff George they tried to sign Dan Marino he decided to stay retired there's a lot of moving parts and they finally

okay well we're going to hand it over to Dante for 2000 but somewhere in there some press conference the exact dates escaping me he he basically said It's a system. We got a system that's, I like O'Connell's, that's very quarterback-friendly and can get spring receivers open. Of course, he had the benefit of having Randy Moss like Connell has Jefferson. But he's basically sitting, you give me a quarterback, and we're going to plug him in, and we're going to still have a potent offense.

And I think that that era, which is now reminding me of this era, with the way things are happening with quarterbacks, There was a lot of that. There were a lot of quarterbacks into the early 2000s, like Rich Gannon, who had had, you know, bounce around careers and Jake DeLones that had sort of showed up and not only been like effective sort of guys, but they would make Pro Bowls. And it would be someone who was 29 years old that had never really done anything. And then all of a sudden, they're Kurt Warnering. And it's like, where did this guy come from?

Or even Jeff George, who had been absolutely horrible for his entire career. And then he shows up with the Vikings. but it was a trend a little bit of how the league was operating at the time. And I feel like we've sort of circled back around to that where Mack Jones, Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, these guys are winning games for teams that they weren't drafted by because of the years of development, I guess, or maybe just landing in the right circumstance. Maybe they were good all along and they never got in the right system or the right circumstance. And that kind of brings us to the J.J. McCarthy conversation.

And I have been thinking a lot about the Sam Darnold discussions that we had in the offseason of, like, do you bring back the quarterback that just won you 14 games? And were they overconfident in J.J. McCarthy based on one training camp, based on one preseason game? Was it a purely financial thing with the fact that if you plan to do it one way, you can't just go to Rob Berzinski, who handles the cap and be like, now I know that we structured, Grinard, Cashman, Van Ginkle, et cetera, this way. But can you just, like, not? Right. Just slide in a little. Just sort of, you know, do your number thing with the numbers, right?

Like, and that goes along with Derisaw's extension and Jefferson's extension. And there's lots of different, it wasn't just this offseason's worth of spending. It was a lot of different spending leading up to it that have been planned around a rookie quarterback contract because that's worked so many different times. and yet at the same time you're watching Sam Darnold as a mature quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks and going, yeah, you know who would be good for this system? Yeah, Sam Darnold.

Yeah, although like with this current version of pass protection, we saw what happened in that Rams game, you know, that's not Sam's game to avoid the rush and look downfield, although you could say, you know, certainly would have been kind of, right in rhythm with the O'Connell system. And I think you could certainly reasonably say that he'd be a better option right now if money were not the issue than Carson Wentz. But I think that's a great point to bring up.

Of course, you're starting to hear a lot of national kind of narratives around how do the Vikings do this? How dumb were they to expect McCarthy to come in there? And they've spent all this money on older win now guys. It's like, well, I mean, it's such a convenient kind of criticism and product of having so many downtimes between games. They're basing that off one really bad game against Atlanta. I mean, you know, the first few quarters against Chicago were rough,

but, you know, a win is a win. and he showed a lot in that fourth quarter. He did. So it's just like you've got to let a little bit of this play out. And if the guy, you know, how do you think he would have played against Cincinnati at full strength without a sprained ankle? I mean, that would have been a really nice confidence-building game with how ravaged the Bengals were and how, you know,

how the defense kind of just put the game on a platter for whoever would have been playing quarterback. Of course, they still had, that was their best offensive line of the season. They still had Jackson before his little wrist surgery. And Dar esau had stepped back in. And when he was not hurt yet, Kelly was still out. Kelly was still out. That was the one. Yeah.

But they were four out of five there. And, you know, they played quite well, ran the ball really well. So the thing is, you know, people have been, you know, whether fans, inside the house or nationally pundits or just people follow football around the league have been sort of ripping the Vikings for going all the bay

at least back to the Brett Farber era but I guess you could say maybe let's just narrow it to since you arrived since the Teddy shredded his knee so they're just going to keep patchworking veteran quarterbacks and spending more money

than they need to and when are they going to draft a guy and so they finally do and yeah it's a little bit of awkward timing you know certainly set back by his injury last year where he basically just lost a year of playing time but um how else are they going to do it um you don't want to you can't criticize the team for like spending on win now players at other positions and just have like a terrible team around him that's not going to do any better so i don't think the pressure of of having to win now is any problem for him i think i just think i to me it still seems like the best alternative um of where they're at in their trajectory as a franchise under this current regime and uh you know i'm out there basically finally passed all of the

decisions on contracts and players that the Zimmer Spielman era kind of left it with. Well, you think about the things that you can control as a front office, right? You can't control whether Lewis Seen becomes a superstar or not, but you can control your bigger picture plan with how are you going to map out your salary cap, how are you going to try to aim to be a contender and not just another team in the league? And when you have an ownership that did not want to tear it all down in 2022 and tank and go all the way to the bottom, or even after Kirk Torres Achilles, they were four and four. They didn't want to just lose every game the rest of the way. So, okay, fair enough.

I've always had trouble criticizing an ownership for wanting to win. Same. What are we doing here? It's, you know, it's sports. It's easy for me to want to tank. That's our friend Judd, that's the Juddism of sports. So, tear it down, trade everybody. What are they doing?

Right. And, you know, look, I'm that guy, too. It's worked in many different scenarios, Detroit being the most notable. But, okay, that's certainly admirable that they wanted to have a competitive rebuild. It's a tough thing to do. But all right. And how are you going to do that? Well, they didn't have a million draft picks when they got here.

They botched all the draft picks in the very first year. So what's the way? The way is to draft J.J. McCarthy and is to go out and get. a bunch of proven players to put them around him, and this has worked so many times. And I go back to even Jared Goff with the Rams, where they bring in Sean McVey and they go get Sammy Watkins and Andrew Whitworth and a bunch of other players and stack up that roster, and golf is pretty good right away, and, you know, off you go. Robert Woods was another key player for them.

But there's seven, eight different examples of teams doing exactly this that have worked at a pretty high level. And then you figure if your guy clicks and becomes a star quarterback, I mean, then you have gold. Then you have Super Bowl chances. If he's even good, you have Super Bowl chances. But if he's great, then wow. But the issue with McCarthy is, so those are the things you can control. What you can't control is his meniscus. And what you can't control is now his high ankle. And him not being able to get on the field, I think, has been I'm sure so frustrating for them, but they had to then make a bet on what he did last year. Well, he couldn't even practice that it would be enough to have him ready because they hadn't set up their salary cap for Sam Darnold to come back.

And also still plenty of reason to believe in J.J. McCarthy. And you talk about history, Dante Culpepper's second game was horrible. I mean, this is why it's so frustrating with the conversation because, like, yes, when we have the results and we see their two and two with half of the. their roster, it's very easy to go, well, I guess they screwed up. Yeah. Right. But, you know, and let's blame everybody. And the GM must have signed all the wrong players and the coach must have had the

wrong system and everything else. The reality is that your young quarterback hasn't been able to get out there. I know. And then that and that's not interesting. Like, that's not good TV. Exactly. Let's go to Rex Ryan for his analysis of the biking situation. Let's just kind of bad luck, guys.

Back to you. I mean, right. And then if, hey, look at that Darnold. he sure is playing well what a bunch of idiots right exactly but but with McCarthy i think there is at this point has to be some worry about the health and how can you develop if you're not playing yeah because this is what happened to tray lance this is what happened to anthony richardson it probably i mean even someone like daniel jones got into some bad situations and and lost a lot of games due to injury it's just it's true very hard to learn how to play if you're not playing and i don't know

if you have a historical comp for this mccarthy situation but uh he needs to he needs to be on the field yeah i mean you know you mentioned uh culpeber i guess that's actually a loosely decent comparison especially within a viking's lens uh you know granted they went to the nfc championship game in his very first year as a starter But they drafted him the previous year and did the veteran Cunningham, Jeff George thing, knowing that Culpepper wasn't ready. So, but in 01, you know, that season was a total mess, really had nothing to do with him. Corey Stringer died before the season, and they were caught that year in, you know, they had one of the best teams ever in 1998 and still were kind of trying to be. trying to force that group to win and you know got back to the NFC championship game but that you know the window had closed on most of those veterans so they just the 01 team was just kind of a mess and bad vibes they're still like mourning a beloved teammate and all these things and then and Dante actually hurt his knee down the stretch and only played a believe 11 games so there's more lost development time right and oh two he played a full season

but you know they were six and ten I knew coaching staff 03 started to put together a little baby still fumbling it was finally 04 was like the click here so like think about the math on that now it's a different salary cap era for sure it's you can't really compare apples to orange or apples and apples on this but I think you really had despite the way that they signed in the offseason by bringing in the Jonathan Allen, Javon Hargrave, Ryan Kelly

thinking about those guys specifically who are very much in a narrow window left in their career it kind of gets you thinking like this is the year but really like to be realistic he really had to start honestly even not thinking about how this season has started in a rocky manner. Like, you had to really be thinking about 2026. Just as far as what's realistic for the, for clicking for JJ,

knowing that's still very much in the window of prime performance for the rest, you know, most of their core. Thinking about Darosah, like this is going to be, there's no way he's going to be at his peak this year coming off the ACL. He already had to miss two games and he's ran. ramping up, but next year should be kind of where he's at his absolute best, like physical peak, that far past the surgery. Jefferson is still be very much in his prime.

Things like that to consider, well, they may not be able to bring back Ryan Kelly next year. They're going to have to find a new planet center, but those are things that you can do. And I think one thing this front office has proven, they're really good at finding, free agents who fit their systems and bringing them in and fitting them in so there's no reason why they can't find a new crop next year after whoever is not going to last pass this year for health or cap reasons and and plug in and still have kind of the same cap plan and same young or core of like key star players that they can build around so you i mean it's just i just think it comes down to a patient's thing

and knowing that if they truly think that they have the right coaching staff and for an office with the whole culture and all the thing, they'll still be around next year. And there's no reason that they can't, you know, be able to

enjoy better luck on the health front next season. I mean, so much of this, like you just said, is the luck thing. Well, that's the hard part of now, like, it's two and two and we're... It feels like they're one and six for the direction two and two right and so that's why i don't quite want to have to go to twenty 26 yeah and i probably won't be here uh for another episode for that's right so

why it's covered all warm again so you know yeah i'm thinking long term the weather's going to turn and that we won't have any more porch podcasts uh i think you will get another invite on the show before 2026 um but i i do agree that you you can't help your mind from sort of tumbling down to How does this thing even get back on the rails to the point where they can be a contender? And I do believe that they thought that they were a Super Bowl contender going into this. And there's sort of evidence everywhere, including the way that they have talked about this season. And nobody has said, hey, we're going to prove the world wrong. I think they've all come and said, like, we're a great team.

We should win. Harrison Smith coming back is probably good evidence that he thought. And then what they all saw from J.J. McCarthy behind the scenes that they believe that even losing. Sam Darnold that they were still a good enough team to compete. They didn't expect everyone to be missing for the half of the season. But that's why I also wouldn't want to write off this season. Because

talk about history, I was reminded of 2017 where they go into Chicago. I like to tell the story that my great friend, Brad Lane, and I decided not to fly me to Chicago for week five of 2017 because we thought the season was over.

Two and two. Yes. We were just like, well, you know, Case Keenham's playing. And there's just No way this team is going anywhere. That's right after the delving towards ACL and they lost at home to the lions. It's just lost. And, you know, Jud and I had a whole Saturday radio show where we talked about other quarterbacks that they could trade for and stuff. And then Keenham takes them to the NFC championship.

So I'm so far away from that. I think my concern is more about the handling of McCarthy and where this is going to go because you could see if they win against Cleveland, Kevin O'Connell wanting to stay with the quarterback that had won two out of the three games. And there's also, I think it's been a little bit odd that McCarthy has not practiced yet with this particular injury. I haven't examined him myself. But, I mean, you know, not even getting back on the practice field sort of opens the door to, well, is he ready to come back after the by week? Or did O'Connell not want him to come back over the by week?

And then what do you do from there? And this is something that I've thought about, though, is all this time during the offseason, we talk about Coach of the Year, quarterback whisper, the reason to believe in McCarthy is because of Kevin O'Connell's acumen in handling the quarterback position. But if he doesn't start against Philadelphia, people will want Kevin O'Connell put in a spaceship and sent to the moon. If McCarthy doesn't play, there is, I think, a lot of pressure there on O'Connell to play McCarthy, but there's also a lot of pressure on O'Connell to win. And if he feels like those two things don't match up, how is he supposed to handle it? Because you'd still be looking at McCarthy as your longer-term option,

but maybe you just don't feel like he's ready. And then one more layer is, but how do you know because he played two games? I know. It's really a conundrum. And one, certainly, we'll never get a straight answer. And partly because it's just not black and white as far as how you make the decision or why, as these other weeks,

unfold here who's going to start and he'll say whence or he'll say McCarthy and it'll be why and it'll be a word salad of yeah but in fairness to him you know it's it's just not that kind drive you've laid out all the reasons I would say that it would be silly to quote unquote protect McCarthy against some tough upcoming opponents

you know once he's actually clear 100% on the ankle because like what are we doing here you have to you have to find out so it's not like the other alternative is you know kind of a thriving Sam Darnold or an Aaron Rogers I mean I don't know that the the Carson Wentz upside is that much higher than than JJ once he's healthy right but also like to my point about you can't just think of it in a one year. It wasn't like they, they're not that naive or desperate to have put all their salary cab eggs and roster planning eggs into this one little basket to catch, you know, salary cap magic and win it all with the first year starter in McCarthy. So if they take more lumps because he's just so young against some really tough defenses after the buy, Oh, well. I don't.

Yeah. It would just be, you know, at some point, you have to reasonably expect that he will be healed from the sprained ankle. Now, as a veteran of highest ankle sprains in my, you know, sort of stunted high school basketball career, they take a while. My body is certainly nowhere near as cared for and refined as NFL level. quarterbacks but I don't think it's actually strange

that he hasn't practiced yet it's only been three weeks I think and also being into broad I think also adds some little weirdness to like how are they you know they're just not in a regular

spaces I think if he's not practicing Eagles week then it starts to get a little more of a what are you doing here is he really here why like why why is he not practicing all that

kind of stuff but you know just like we're talking about people just have to be patient with a season to unfold it's not over it'll just have to be patient for this individual injury to unfold and you know one week at a time I think because I you know I do think it's kind of amazing he actually stayed in the game against Atlanta but I do think that it would even if he was playing really really well, I still think it would have been a stretch for him to play this week. Yeah, I think playing this week would have been

too much to ask, considering everything that happened, but I guess I would have expected at least some practice reps. I don't know. Again, yeah, it's the injuries we don't really know. They know a lot better than us when it comes to that. But you get a bye week here, and then you really should be back

and ready to go, and then we'll find out there how Kevin O'Connell really feels about having JJ McCarthy as a starter. But I think the first step to all of this is that they have to beat the Cleveland Browns. Because if you lose against Cleveland on Sunday, then a lot

of this is out the window. Then there's no way you can continue to play Carson Wentz. And in my mind, I switch the, I flip the switch from, and this is crazy how a week five game can do this, but it is, I think, just the reality of a 17 game season, which is

if you go to two and three, I'm not even thinking about this year as a competitive of season. I'm thinking of this year as you need to play J.J. McCarthy as much as you can. We need to find out about J.J. McCarthy. And that's the biggest goal of the season. I know they won't think of it that way at two and three. They'll think we're going to fight to the bitter end. But when you look at who they've got to play going forward, and even games like, oh, the Giants and the Giants and the Cowboys, they'll be an easy win. And then you're like, oh, wait, the Cowboys can

score 40 points. And the Giants just put in their young quarterback in one. And they have one of the best D lines. And like, there's no easy win anywhere in the rest of the schedule outside of Cleveland supposed to be that. If they win in our three and two, that's where it gets a little bit on the dicey side. I am just sort of planning the flag of I am going to allow Kevin O'Connell to deal with this the way that he thinks that he should, regardless of how many comment sections are flaming me for saying it's okay if he feels he's not ready to play. But if he does feel he's not ready to play, and we're talking about setting him farther back from a timeline of playing and getting the actual in-game experience, it does put the entire plan up in in the air. And it's crazy

how fast these things happen in the league, but this is how it goes, where it's, all right, rookie. Colin Cowhart said something about this, and Tom Brady had like a really good response about quarterback development and all that. But I think there's realities to the NFL where I think cowhert said 18 months into a guy's career, I should have a pretty good sense, which is obviously ridiculous because of the number of quarterbacks who have much, much later than that become great quarterbacks. But from a franchise timeline perspective, it's probably true that if you are into two years in and you still don't know, then we're talking quarterback competition. Then you have to go get somebody else. And this is probably what O'Connell wanted

with Daniel Jones. He probably wanted a quarterback competition, which I think Daniel Jones would have one in the off season. And we'd be talking about a fully different story here. But that's how fast it kind of happens in the league if we don't see a lot more of him. And then it's also a season of, it's going to feel like waste. If they go eight and nine or seven and ten and Carson, when starts most of the games, you're going to go, what did we even get out of this? Which is so far different from the expectation when we left training camp that I feel

like the fans have really struggled with this, even I've struggled with this, of, like, what to say about it, because if it all goes tumbling down, you're like, that will be one of the more shocking, like, expectations versus, and I know this happened many times, but like expectations versus results that we've seen, I mean, maybe, what, 2018 was really the one, I think, that was the most shocking of you go from NFC championship, you sign the quarterback to you're actually bad. But aside, but the same thing here with all the talent on the team. everything that McCarthy had shown, and then you're sort of standing at the edge of, are we not really going to find anything out about this or what?

So that is, I think, a really tough place to be for Vikings fans who have invested so much already into this kid that they just haven't gotten to see play. Yeah, it'd be really stunning to me if that scenario unfolded where they weren't really catching up in the standings and are barely, you know, at the 500 mark. and we're still seeing Carson Wentz. But I don't think it'll happen, but it's certainly a possible result, depending on how O'Connell feels about McCarthy. If he wins enough and then, like, if wins, you know, wins enough here and there to that they are, like, mathematically and realistically, you know, in that wildcard kind of, or even division hunt, then there would be that kind of.

recurring temptation or or not even temptation but like reason for him to stick with it for for the I guess the protection issue but for McCarthy I don't know it's hard for me to again to see that as a valid reason just because you have to protect his health But protecting the confidence part, I don't think they worry about that part for him. I think he's wired. I think, you know, the challenge for McCarthy kind of in the between the years category is to kind of learn to settle down a little bit, not to be, you know, not to just be so devastated by an interception.

Like, I got to go do so much better next throw. He just feels like he's let an entire world down when he makes a bad play. But he doesn't lose his confidence. I don't sense that about him, as we've kind of observed and hear people talk about him. So I do think if you're going to be in the NFL, like you said, there aren't like even the bad teams are still kind of good. Yeah. So you can't. It's just, it's not college.

There's just not really a way to let him, you know, have kind of a practice season where it doesn't really hurt you in. standings. I mean, you've got to just kind of let her rip at some point soon. But I think you have to be in the right spot with the rest of the locker room to do that, too, because if you beat the Browns by 40 points and Justin Jefferson goes for 175 yards, then Justin Jefferson is not going to be like, you know what I want, J.J. McCarthy. And we'll all say, bro, it was the Browns. They don't look at it that way. No, well, like the Bengals win, which the Bengals minus Burrow. is kind of feeling that kind of

yeah like that kind of a win like I think they're worse than the Browns the Bengals without Joe Burrow probably because they don't have that kind of a defense that any defense the Browns can put out there so it's a pretty pivotal game very winnable

even with gestures and yeah just in school but maybe it'll be the Justin School game where he walks out with a 96 PFF Gray. Hey, we never thought. The Vikings are not going to win it would be almost impossible to

win that game by 40 points against that defense with this offense of line, right? This Brown's defense just simply and just plays a game that just is not possible

for other teams to score that many. Well, Detroit at 34 against them. That's true. So maybe they're flirting in there. But look, I mean, Isaiah Rogers had two touchdowns. Well, sure, yeah. If you throw in the defensive scores, it's a different ballgame. Well, and that's how it could get off the rails where you get, I mean, these games go this way sometimes, right?

Like a pick six and then a fumble and you score quickly and then all of a sudden, you know, they're scrambling and you know, that kind of thing. Howard has an ankle injury, so. He does. Yeah, maybe that'll slow him down a little. And so, you know, Baltimore, I think, had 41 against them and Detroit at 13. because those games just got totally out of control. We will see on that. But I think it's the most must-winny type of week five game that we're ever going to run into in the NFL because the team did have such high standards for themselves going in.

And it's really hard to see them achieving that if they get to two and three, which leads me to my last question. And this has been so much fun to have this conversation with you, Dave. Likewise. How do you think it plays out? I mean, I know you're a newsman and you're not a predictions. man right but uh so i know that's not your wheelhouse but give me like of let's say there's 10 different scenarios for this this this the way that this plays out the season the season there's there's i mean i throw 10 out there because you never know because it's the vikings but there's like one scenario

that they win the super bowl because jj is incredible and everyone gets healthy and then there's one where they win four games because this they never get healthy and you know whatever So where on this spectrum would you say would be if it was a map or if it was a chart and there's like a hump of here's where the most likely thing is to happen? I feel like the most likely thing to happen would be like finishing eight and nine and still being very much in a punt for a playoff spot, even. until the final week and maybe one of those deals where you need four other teams

to help you out. It's a tough sledding to finish with lines and the Packers. You know, they're both at home. I'd say, yeah, I think a reasonable mind

would maybe put that somewhere in the middle between those extremes is most likely to occur. You know, I still think there's a reasonable percentage of

occurrence that a better outcome than that eight and nine happens like we were talking just earlier there's plenty of time for them to get their key guys healthy again and no Christian Darosog done for the season situation

right tough opponents are not I think when they're at their best becomes a lot and when they're at their healthy best it becomes a lot less important who they're actually playing, right? If they've got a third string offensive line

playing the Giants, then all that's rough. The Chargers just went there and lost. They went cross-country and somehow their passing attack just kind of vanished that game. But on the other hand, like, the Vikings, as much as we're breaking this down internally and, you know, there's a lot of kind of reason for skepticism or pessimism around,

for obvious reasons with the injuries and the uncertainty of McCarthy is essentially a rookie quarterback. But this is exactly the kind of team like nobody else in the NFC wants to play in a key game. You guarantee that, right, with the defense they have and with Justin Jefferson and Cruzen-Darassau and all these elite players and just a well-coached team, especially if it's at US Bank Stadium. but even if it's, the bikes are on the road, you know, this is not a team that any of the division rivals are looking forward to in December, right? Especially considering that's the time

they're most likely to be at their best anyway. Health aside, that's when, that's just that many more games into the McCarthy development, assuming he's going to get the reins back at some point. And if they sneak into the playoffs, despite some of these challenges with the record currently in the schedule, it's also that kind of team like I don't know I'm not sure about this matchup

so you can look at it that way too so if I let me put it this way for our sponsor Fanduil if I set the line for you at over under eight and a half wins would you go right now over or under knowing we know nothing knowing we know nothing I'm going to actually go over

just because the most the group think about you know the pessimism fueled kind of consensus narrative is under there

so I'm gonna go over I tend to try to steer away from the consensus snowball opinion that builds upon itself without any new developments happening only building on itself because there's more people talking about that same opinion right right so as we talked about

rather kind of unemotionally and logically there's just a lot of time left for it to play out and no reason that this team that they assembled can't still kind of be there on the field like winning more than eight games right and just to go back to that the Vikings on Fanduil are plus 270 to make the playoffs which was about the same as the Arizona Cardinals and I would just not necessarily agree with that like I think the Cardinals are sort of a lock to not make the playoffs with their division I don't think they're

a serious football team I think the Vikings can be under the right circumstances and this And that's where there's so much uncertainty going into it. And it would not be the National Football League. If there was not, it would not be the Minnesota Vikings if there was not. Dave Campbell, Associated Press, a great friend to come over here and hang out in the backyard with, we had birds, we had dogs, we had construction, we had a C. Now it's quiet. Now, of course, we're going to sign off. An hour later, as we're finishing up, no noise at all.

But no, it wouldn't be an outside podcast if we didn't have the ambiance, we'll call it. sure but great stuff i really enjoyed this a beautiful day a wonderful conversation and thanks for doing it you got it football football