Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - As Vikings and Colts get set to play, are they in similar spots? Ft. Colts reporter Zach Hicks

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

Matthew Coller is joined by Zach Hicks of Sports Illustrated to talk about Saturday night's game... but mostly talk about why some draft picks make it and some don't and about the trajectories of both teams. Why the Carson Wentz decision could end up like Kirk Cousins's situation in Minnesota, when teams should choose to tank, whether Jacon Eason or Sam Ehlinger are interesting and what Zach is looking for against the Vikings. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TD Direct Investing offers live support, so whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out episode of Purple Insider. insider Matthew Collar here and joining me covers the Indianapolis Colts for Sports Illustrated to break down this game as if it is the game of the century between the Vikings and the Colts on Saturday night it is Zach Hicks who has become one of my favorite Twitter follows we got together before Vikings and Colts last year which was an abomination of a football game but we broke down the hell out of it beforehand Zach what, what's going on, buddy? Hey, pretty good, man. Obviously still riding that high from that week two victory last year.

That was the peak of everything last year. But no, doing good. Excited for another preseason game. And honestly, we all joke about preseason. It doesn't really matter or anything like that. But I personally love the preseason as a draft guy. You know, I get to see all these guys who I thought were going to be stars in the league, you know, play their way off of a roster within a couple of days and never see them again. So it's always fun

to see them out there and see what they do, especially those quarterbacks that everybody loved in college that thought, you know, the greatest thing ever, they go undrafted and they throw a couple of picks in the preseason. I always, I always enjoy preseason football. Yeah. I don't think I've seen Chris Sims say that Kellen Mond is better than any of the other quarterbacks so far recently. And I guess that we just need to acknowledge that he's just everybody else. Like you pick, you pick your guys and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But I always say, and this is as a huge enjoyer of draft season, but you just don't know until they get here and they put on the pads. And then usually by like the second week of pads,

then you've got a pretty good feeling. Can this guy play in the NFL or not? And until then you can't. So what you can do and what I appreciated about following your work through the draft season is you can interview these guys. You can learn about them. You can give information about them and take your best guess. Is this a good idea for my team or not based on what we know? But if you're trying to pick out who's going to succeed and who's not, Josh Rosen just got cut by another team.

And, you know, sometimes you hit, sometimes you don't. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. With the interview stuff that I do, the main reason I started is because the Colts actually have a green beret on their staff, right? He's like their director of – I think he's their director of player personnel or something around the lines of that named Brian Decker. And his entire job is just to analyze these players when they're coming in,

you know, analyze, like he sits down with them for maybe 10, 15 minute interviews and analyze, can they, you know, what kind of character they are and can they, you know, be like NFL quality players and stuff like that with that character. So I was like, well, I feel like I'm missing a huge part of the piece then. And that's a big thing because, you know, when you're just watching film, you can watch a guy and he's doing everything right.

And it's like, wow, he's so good. And then they fall to the fifth or sixth round. You're like, what did the NFL see that I didn't? But they get so much more behind the scenes from talking to coaches, talking all that. And yeah, like you said, you never really know what these guys until those first couple of weeks of padded practice. I think there's a famous story. I don't know who told it. It might have been might have been Ron Wolfe or some one of the players that play with the Packers but uh in the early 2000s they spent a high round pick first or second round pick on some guy and I think the story goes a bit and like within the first day or two of pad of practice they were like oh we made a mistake like oh yeah this guy does not

belong in the NFL and sure enough I think he only played like 15, 20 games and he was out of the league. So yeah, it's, it's crazy. It's crazy how they can see it and stuff like that within those first couple of practices, but that's the only time you really know. And that's kind of what goes into that. What people say that draft is a crap shoot. And in a way it kind of is. And it's amazing how the NFL gets the order generally, right? Like the first round picks are much more likely to hit than the sixth round picks by a huge margin. So they know what they're doing, but which first round picks guys who have the baseline talent,

athleticism production in college, which of those guys are going to work out is sort of anybody's guess. Like you've got better odds that the first round is going to work out and become a great player. But do they know if the 13th pick is going to be better than the 14th pick? Or if they're looking at their draft board saying these guys are each a seven out of 10 prospect and which one's going to succeed, which one's going to fail. A lot of times it has to do with just how much dedication you have to it. And a lot of guys draft night is the peak of their career.

And a lot of, a lot of times it's, I got drafted, I made it, I'm going to get this signing bonus and so forth. And then when they go out there, they go, Oh,

wow. Harrison Smith is way better than me. Right. And that's, I think that happens a lot. It takes a lot of, a lot of guts. It's a totally different game with the level of speed and violence.

And so I think that even like Wyatt Davis is playing with the third team and the level of speed that you need to get to a linebacker at the second level on a run play in college versus the NFL is completely different. And I think he got there and went, oh, man, I need to lose some weight. I need to get quicker on it. And, and that's what they said, you know, kind of publicly was Mike Zimmer said, he's got to lose some weight because he's going to have to get to those linebackers to make those plays. And it's like, how can you really know that when you're watching on tape, the linebackers for Ohio state, I mean, tough Borland was one of them. He's not going to

make this team. And he was one of their best players. Right. So how can you really judge that? You can only judge that the guy has the physical tools to maybe start and maybe the personality and makeup. But once it takes the real guts to be out there and it's just hard to say. Yeah, no, it's fascinating too. Like I think the best way I've heard it illustrated to me was the story of Carter Willis with the Colts. You know, Carter Willis was a fourth round pick, a guy who, you know, they probably saw as more of a special teams guy who maybe could start. I know they had him really like rated higher than a fourth rounder, but they probably never saw him being as sturdy as a starter as he is now. And from talking with players who have talked to him and, and I think I talked to him

before that draft as well it's fascinating how much a player goes through mentally within that first couple weeks training camp and a big thing with Willis was you know he came into training camp I think at like 225 right for safety if you don't know the Colts defense you know Darius Leonard plays at like 210 at linebacker Bobby Okereiki plays at like 215 220 so these these guys play like smaller and faster so a big thing for carrie willis was getting down to around 210 215 but maintaining you know a diet and so it's it's so much like you know if you're not fully committed to this and you don't have the mentality to change everything about your body type your work ethic your habits uh you're not going to make it and that's so many things that you can't really see within the process.

And even these, these, you know, scouts and coaches and stuff who talk to these players, talk to college coaches, they get a better feel for it, but they still don't know, you know, and, and luckily for guy like, Kari Willis, you know, he was able to get himself down to 10 to 15 play faster and he was able to, you know, succeed in the NFL. And that's not the case for maybe a guy,

a safety who went in the first round who had this, you know, had to do the same things, but just couldn't respond the way he did. So, yeah, you know, like you said, the first round you're more likely to hit and more likely to hit maybe on a star or a superstar, but it's such a crap shoot. And it's, it's, it's actually one of the more fun parts of the process. You know, you get to, you kind of see the cream rice of the crop or whatever, whatever that's saying is.

Yeah. Cream of the crop. Cream of the crop or whatever, whatever that is. Yeah. Cream of the crop. Cream of the crop. That's what it is. That's it. But yeah, it's, it's so interesting because there's so many things that can undo you as a rookie coming in. If you don't, it's like when you go to college and suddenly your mom's not putting vegetables in anymore and you just eat McDonald's all the time. Like that's, that's how this is. I mean,

there's somebody holding your hand at all times in college, but then suddenly that's gone. So you have the speed of the game and the violence. You have the fact that you're kind of out on your own now with nobody holding your hand. You have the complexity of the playbook is just five times more complex. The detail is so much different. This was a Laquan Treadwell problem was look when you are told you have to run nine yards at the route and you have to run it at the guy's

shoulder a certain way but only on that kind of coverage and if you if you go you know the wrong way that the whole play blows up like that's what happened to him he just couldn't get the route depths and the details right and guys like Adam Thielen, Stefan digs who are not high draft picks, they got the details right. And they became stars. So it's, it's so hard to figure out in college was Laquan Treadwell,

just sort of like running straight and having them throw the ball to him. Like, I think that's actually what was going on. It's just like, they're over there holding SpongeBob pictures and saying, all right, look one, that means a hitch route and kind of do it wherever you feel like. Right. It's just like, they're over there holding SpongeBob pictures and saying, all right, look one, that means a hitch route and kind of do it wherever you feel like. Right. It's just like, it's just totally different. And so let me ask you about a guy that you interviewed and then we'll get into the game of the century here. Um, uh, Kenny Wong Wu has

nice hurt right now. So he's not going to play Saturday, but he's made a great impression of all the rookies. It's got, you know, we've got Derrissaw hurt Kellen Mon had COVID Wyatt Davis is with the third team Chaz Surratt is with the third team so it's like not going super great but Kenny Wong Wu has been the guy who has stood out the most and I think from your coverage leading up to the draft that was maybe foreseeable that he would be a good draft pick for the Vikings. Yeah, I think I actually had him as my, I had him in higher than most people. I think I had him in running back six or whatever. Obviously you have, everyone has tiers and I could be talked into different guys, but yeah, I think he was like my RB six. I fell in love with his game after I talked with him and really got back into his film. And it's funny with a player like that.

It's kind of like that Antonio Gibson type player where it's like, he barely touched the ball in college. So how do you really properly evaluate him? But when I saw his game, especially for a day three pick, cause he was going to be a day three pick. He didn't have the pedigree or anything like that to be much higher, but you see a guy who excels on special teams. He was the big 12 freshmen of the year as a return guy uh he was a good and a limited role as a backup as a when he touched the ball he was explosive i mean

that's the first thing that pops when you think of him as explosive and then even talking to him i mean you're talking to a guy who you know i think he was like straight a's throughout college uh really smart kid uh and you could tell there was no ego with him either which is great because again running back even if you're a first round pick, sometimes as a running back, you're going to come in as a backup or a split time guy. He was perfectly fine with that. I mean, he went to Iowa State for all four years, sat behind one of the best running backs in the nation all four years, you know, different two different guys, never complained, never thought about transferring so when i kind of combined all that and i looked at his upside and his special traits and that's actually a big thing that chris ballard has kind of helped me understand as an evaluator is when you look at players like they can be flaws they can be things that they can't do or they struggle with but you have to identify those guys who have a special trait you know that special trait uh dk Metcalf's the perfect example of that, right?

Like, yes, there are flaws. Yes, you know, how big could his route tree be? Well, does it matter? The three routes he runs, he runs at the highest level in the NFL, you know, a fly route, a slant, and a hitch. He runs all three of those at such an elite level that it doesn't matter, you know, and sometimes just those special traits stand out. And with him, with Wong Wu, you know, that explosion, that speed,

and then also his character I think are all special. And I think when you combine that, especially in the, you know, I love the Vikings, you know, coaching staff and stuff, and I'm glad that they were able to recognize that with him early on. And obviously he's not going to take all these snaps from Dalvin Cook, but as a rotational guy, as a third down bag, a special teamer, I mean, that's a home run pick in the fourth round. I can only see that getting better. I think they're running back coach. Kennedy Palomaro has a great eye for these things. Like he, now I think they overdrafted

Alexander Madison, but he's turned out to be a good player and that was his guy. And he's helped, you know, coaching Delvinvin cook delvin cook credits him uh with helping him like adapt himself to the nfl delvin is an unbelievable talent but uh i think we knew that there was going to be a period of him adapting to being an nfl player which has turned out to be really good for him and kennedy's been a big deal there where i'm always trying to listen closely between the lines of what people say about players, because I got this tweet the other day. Someone said, well, don't they always say nice things about their teammates?

Like, no, actually, they don't. Yeah. And you have to listen for like how they're complimenting them. It's like, oh, you know, he's he's coming along. It's like, OK, is he? But when Delvin Cook talked about Kenny Wong, he said he's picking up on things with the offense that actually took me longer to get in practice. And I thought that's a very specific compliment. I think it speaks to what you're talking about, about his character.

And so, unfortunately, for this game preview that we're not really doing, but kind of, you know, you can't see Kenne Wongwu. Sorry, but it looks like he's going to be back. The, the pioneer press reported that he's going to be back by week one. So I think that he's an interesting little wrinkle to their offense. So let's, um, let's get into this a little bit. Here's where I want to start. I think you're going to love where I want to start, which is I, so I pulled up Indianapolis Colts. Who was their top rated PFF guy?

Because I didn't watch your preseason game. I'm sorry. Just not doing that. I could barely watch it, man. I'm just kidding i didn't watch your preseason game i'm sorry just not doing that i could barely watch it man i'm just kidding again i like preseason i yeah i mean look i'm gonna watch the preseason game that i'm covering inside the stadium and i like having football on but i wasn't gonna go out of my way to focus on every colts player yeah you know what's funny is because i because my secondary job is doing some film stuff for the Broncos. I actually watched all of your guys' first game. Oh, wow. Sorry. It was awesome. It was hilarious. It was hilarious, man. It was great.

Yeah. I was writing down like these notes on every Broncos player that impressed me. And I'm like, man, I got like 60 guys. Like this was such an impressive game i've never seen a head coach come out after the game and just trash his entire team after a preseason game like i've never seen that before um but that's what that's what happened so but the top name on the list on the pff grades holton hill former minnesota viking yeah he got the highest PFF grade of any Colt for your first preseason game.

And I think this is kind of funny because Holton Hill, it was kind of a sad story. It just like he came into a couple of games in 2018. People thought, oh, maybe he can be good. And then he started last year. It was instantly a disaster. He got hurt. There was kind of a weird designation and then he

disappeared and they cut him and then now he shows up back with the Colts but it's only funny because Xavier Rhodes had a great year for the Colts last year so is this going to be Xavier Rhodes part two or is Holton Hill just like not really actually a part of this thing in Indy I mean I could see practice squad with him I don't really think he has a chance to make the roster. They have six guys at corner that are pretty much all roster locks. Like there's not really anyone pushing those six guys off. Honestly, I watched Holton Hill in the last game. He was fine. I think pro football focus probably bumped him up because he did force a fumble. And, but that was right after he got beat for like a 20-yard gain over the middle and then ripped the ball out so I don't I don't know pro football

focus I love pro football focus I use it for everything the grades are kind of a little iffy for me but um but yeah I think he was fine I always liked his length and I loved his speed you know very talented player it's, can he put it all together? You know, he could. Hopefully on the practice squad this year and he gets, you know, maybe a call up if there's injuries or something. But I don't really think he has much of a chance

of making the roster. He might be one of the next cutdowns, honestly, when they get to 80. Well, I just, Vikings fans have always these fears of if we cut this guy, he'll become a star somewhere else, which actually doesn't happen that often. But it's one of those fans feel that way. I also think, to your point, that if you are looking at individual PFF preseason grades, I think even they would tell you, look, we're grading everything, but don't make too much of this.

Like Holton Hill playing, I think I looked at him, he played like 19 plays. Like, okay, guys, don't overre much of this like holton hill playing i think i looked at he played like 19 plays like okay guys like don't overreact him playing 19 even in a even in a regular season game single game it can be so impacted we saw this with cam dantzler he gets an interception against the bears and he gets a 90 grade for the game which is great but he's targeted like four times or something in that game so it's you're dealing with a lot of small samples that maybe people don't necessarily factor so let's okay let me move on from that and talk about something a little more relevant than holton hill i just wanted to get that out of the way yeah because i laughed when i saw he was the highest graded player for the first preseason game uh let's talk about the quarterback situation and um jacob eason sam ellinger how long is carson wentz going to be out

and like does this are colts fans like really jacked up about this thing because they're this game trying to figure out like what jacob eason is going to be for however long he's going to be most colts fans are sold on easason being legit for one preseason game. I don't know. The part where I'm at with Jacob Eason is he's done a lot of good things this off season. And honestly, he's done everything right since coming into the pros. I mean, regardless of what you thought of him as a, as a prospect,

like the thing we could all take away is a huge arm, a lot of upside, but there was a lot of work that needed to be done. And, you know, throughout his whole first year, he worked with Adam Dato. I've still got to get used to saying Dato instead of Tom House. But he worked with Adam Dato in 3DQB, worked on his mechanics, worked on a lot of that, took notes from Phillip Rivers, one of the best to ever do it. So he did everything right.

He's coming to this offseason with this opportunity to run with the first team a lot. And it kind of got derailed early because Ellinger has played so well that Ellinger is now getting some first-team snaps just because of merit, is what the coaching staff is saying. I don't know. But he comes out for the first preseason game, plays really well. There are some issues with his pocket presence and pocket movement, but it's his first game in over a year

and that was an issue in college as well so I didn't expect that to be perfect but yeah I think there's I think there's a lot of things to like about him I like his upside I like what he can be I'm not as far gone as a lot of Colts fans are but that's probably because I didn't grow up a Colts fan I don't have that kind of fandom irrational ability that that most fans do but I think there is good reason to be excited that he can at least be a sturdy backup. And that, you know, we're talking about a fourth round pick. If you can get a guy who's a backup for, you know,

can come in and win a couple of games as a backup, then you hit the home run with that fourth round pick. So I'm excited for what Easton can be. I think he's had a good camp. He's gelling with the receivers. And honestly, every preseason game we get to see him out there a little bit more, I'm excited to see. But honestly, it's going to be Ellinger with the first team to start this game.

Oh, it is? Okay. They said before last week, they said Easton would get the first game with the starters, and then Ellinger would get majority of the snaps with the starters in this game, which we all kind of disagree on Colts fans kind of disagree on it but it kind of is what it is that's interesting because we looked at all these quarterbacks for the Vikings once we had the feeling that they were going to draft somebody it became like okay let's look at everybody who could possibly be drafted. Ian Book, Ellinger, Kellen Mond, of course, ends up with the Vikings.

And it seemed like nobody was excited about Sam Ellinger at all. Like there was just this guy is the most sort of milquetoast prospect and there's nothing really there and that's it. Where with some other guys, there was like at least Mond, there was athleticism that you could say, well, maybe the ceiling is a little bit higher because of that. Is there something there with Ellinger or is it just like, this is what we're doing because we kind of have to, because Carson Wentz isn't it? I think early in camp, Eason was kind of struggling with his accuracy and struggling

with that pocket stuff. Again, it's his first training camp as a pro. Those issues are going to happen. But Ellinger stepped in, and this is a four-year starting college quarterback who honestly I really do think outside of obviously he has some accuracy concerns, but if his arm was even at NFL level, I think he could be a starting quarterback. To me personally, I don't think his arm is at NFL level. And I think most people who watch this college film come away with that. Even when you watch that first preseason game, there were a couple throws where it's like, yeah,

he just doesn't have an NFL caliber arm. So he kind of comes in though, and he's super poised, always good under pressure. He's mobile and he's accurate and he's looking good in camp. So that's why the Colts are kind of giving him a shot because, you know, he's looking good. For me though, there's not really much to get excited about with Ellinger. I think he could be a good backup long term.

You know, I always kind of compared him to like Nick Mullins type. Like, yeah, he could be, you know, a weaker arm, but sturdy backup for a team. But for me, if you have to start one of those guys early in the year, say Carson Wentz does miss time, we still have no clue how much he's going to miss. But if you had to start one at the beginning of the year I don't see any benefit starting Sam Ellinger I just you know Eason you're it's going to be boom or bust but you get to finally see what he is Ellinger you kind of know what you're going to get and it's going to be fine it's going to be a poised quarterback who limits your offense but can maybe get the ball down the field a couple times uh but for me personally i like seeing ellinger i like he's the kind of guy i like seeing in the preseason but

there's not really much excitement from me in terms of like being a guy in the regular season or when it really counts hey everybody the season is on the way fans are going back to stadium so you have to be ready with the best minnesota football gear that's why you have to check out soda stick i saw a ton of soda stick gear around training camp i expect to see it in the stadium as well there are so many cool designs on hats t-shirts and hoodies for the fall weather including the john randall design that is extremely cool there's also the straight cash homie Randy Moss homage. Can't stop the Thielen hats and a personal favorite,

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So we were having this discussion on the sideline at camp the other day about how many games the Vikings would win if Jake Browning or Kellen Mond had to play the whole season. And I came up with six and four. I think that I would give Jake Browning probably four wins and Kellen Mond maybe six, because I think that Kellen Mond at least could sort of play himself into some comfort. And maybe by the end, he's got like the arm strength or you mentioned this, maybe even before we started recording about Kellen he's got like the arm strength or you mentioned this maybe even before we started recording about Kellen Mond just like the hot and cold nature of his college tape and so at least you could get some hot in there and win a handful of games even if he doesn't

exactly know what he's doing yet where Jake Browning has the same Sam Ellinger problem the arm strength just isn't there and what can I do with that i mean that's just like you have to reach this baseline or you can't really play in the nfl and win football games and that's the same problem so give me give me the same if carson wentz's foot falls off and it's either it's eason or ellinger how many games do the colts win so yeah again it's it's kind of like a a range you know with with ellinger i'm pretty confident saying 3, 4, 5, around there, especially with the 17th game. Just because, again, I think he's going to be safe. He'd be really fine.

But your offense is so limited with a guy with that arm. He throws some nice – and this is a big thing, actually, just to kind of detour a little bit. But when you say arm strength, people always, always misinterpret this. Arm strength is not how far you can throw a football. It's not that. Like Ellinger threw a 40 something yard pass in the game, in the last preseason game that was completed. Beautiful touch pass down the field. That's not what arm strength.

Arm strength is, can you fit it into tight windows? Can you push it to the sidelines? Do you have the necessary velocity to survive in the NFL, which I don't think he does. So, yeah, I think that's just limited. But with Eason, you know, I could see six, seven, and if everything goes right, I could see eight. I mean, the Colts won seven games a couple years,

or two years ago with Jacoby Brissett at quarterback. So, you know, I could see Eason getting up to eight. Maybe, you know, maybe if everything goes perfect, like the defense plays out of their mind, you can contend for a wild card spot. But, you know, if if Wentz misses this year and misses a lot of this year, the Colts aren't making the playoffs and they get ready for the draft season. Because if if Wentz does miss a good amount of time, then they get that first round pick back. Right. I feel the same way about the Vikings, where it's like if you don't have a ryan fitzpatrick or marcus mariotta as your backup quarterback you just lose like that you're just season is completely lost if say your quarterback hurts his foot or maybe gets coveted or something

like that um if it's your guys i mean if one quarterback gets COVID, then chances are they all do. Except for Jake Browning. Except for Jake Browning. Yeah, who had a funny moment at the podium where he was like, well, I guess you guys all know my vaccination status now since I'm playing quarterback. But he dodged the rest of that question, but it was sort of funny where he was like, I didn't mean everyone to know this, but it is what it is. So here's a question about the Colts when I was thinking about this game, because, you know, I I'd love to preview your defensive line with you or whatever, but you know, it's a preseason game.

So I'm not even sure if you're going to play defensive line people that matter. But I want to talk about the bigger picture of this. Cause I feel like with Carson Wentz is your quarterback that you are like AFC Vikings, where I look at the roster for the Colts and I go there's a lot of a lot of good players here a lot of very talented players and I look at your quarterback and it looks like a tenuous situation where you know even Ed Carson Wentz is best okay for one year he's really, but that was an unbelievable team that was capable of winning with Nick Foles. Very hard to repeat. So you have a quarterback that probably limits or caps sort of where you're at. And then what is the long-term is I think a

very good question. Like you're you're paying guys who are your stars now, but we've seen that situation where that gets you with the Vikings is it sort of pins you into then relying on draft picks to hit that aren't first rounders. So I wonder what you think of like the bigger picture of the Colts and where they are just in the grand scheme of things in the NFL. Yeah. Yeah. So starting with the first part of that, when it comes to like Carson Wentz and all that, I kind of see this season as an evaluation year.

See where your direction is as a franchise. You know, like if Carson Wentz comes in and he, you know, we're not talking top five quarterback in the NFL. But I mean, if you're talking top 12, 13, 14, like a real big, a real good bounce back for him, considering he was like 34th last year out of 32 you know then you can really build forward and say okay we have a guy who has shown the you know shown the necessary steps to get back to where he was and maybe we could even go further with that and then you can feel better and also it's evaluation year for their defensive ends they have two rookies coming in and quitty pay dio a day and bow they have young corners out there cornerback to rock you sin Sin, Marvell Tell, young receivers, Michael Pittman, Paris Campbell. So it's really an evaluation year, and they're

really throwing all those young guys out into the fire this year, which is perfect. I mean, you really got to see what you have in all these young guys, because like you said, now they're paying DeForest Buckner, Kenny Moore, Quentin Nelson, they're going to pay next year, Brayden Smith, Darius Leonard, you know, all that stuff's going to going to add up and and you know Chris Ballard never really attacks free agency that's never been his thing so you know it's perfect and he's one of the best drafters in the league but you need to start hitting on these key positions you know it's great to find a linebacker it's great to find a right tackle it's great to find a left guard but you need to start hitting on corner and defensive end and wide receiver, as well as quarterback position. So this year is really big on evaluation just to see where

those positions are at and see what Carson Wentz is at. And I think depending on what happens with this year in those positions, you can kind of go from there with the future. So honestly, in the terms of the league right now, they're kind of in that that bubble like the Vikings where it's like playoff contender but how much more really right now I I don't know but you gotta like I think the little bit different than what they are from the Vikings is like with Kirk Cousins you guys kind of know what you have with Kirk Cousins where with the Colts Carson Wentz we probably know what we have but we get we gotta still see this year. They invested that first.

They invested that third in him. See what you have, and if it blows up in your face, you can kind of reestablish and kind of re-pivot. And the GM and the coach both got those big extensions too, so there's no risk of them losing their job if this Carson Wentz thing fails. So they can kind of operate more free. But, yeah, this year is a big evaluation year to kind of see what the direction of the franchise is going to be. And I know the fans aren't going to love that.

The fans all want to think, oh, Carson Wentz, former MVP candidate, we're going to go to the Super Bowl this year. That's just not what this year is. This year is evaluating, build for 2022, and see what you kind of have in all these young players. And hopefully they take those positive steps to where 2022 hits and you can really make that run. So here, when you talk about getting Carson Wentz to be the 12th best quarterback in the league, bells and whistles go off in my head because that's actually bad though.

Like what we've seen here is that's actually bad. Like you need Carson Wentz to either be MVP Carson Wentz, and that's what he is going forward, or absolutely blow up. Because if he's 12th, you'll pay him. Or you'll keep him on a huge contract. And then you'll struggle to keep everybody around him. You'll struggle to fill out the tougher pieces of like, oh, let's get this veteran corner.

Oh, we can't. We need to have a rookie corner there. And then he gets roasted for the whole season or whatever you know what i mean like there's a domino effect and then if you're 12th the thing that i think when we look at like pff grades rankings tiers is we don't have a good understanding of how far away 12th actually is from first it's like well that doesn't sound that far away. Or even fifth. Or fifth, right. Because the third best quarterback in the league is like Aaron Rodgers. And so you are closer when you're 12th to Andy Dalton than you are to Aaron Rodgers. And so how do you win the Super Bowl, right?

And so I think about this all the time. I think for the Colts, it would be better if this thing did blow up. And then they can draft a quarterback and have a quarterback on a rookie contract, which I think is the direction that the Vikings want to go after this year. If they can find a trade partner for cousins. Yeah. And honestly, when I, when I say getting 12, it's not 12 going forward, you know, it's, it's seeing that he can get up to at least like see that he's not broken.

You know, if we can just establish, he's not broken. Then we we can just establish he's not broken then we can kind of go from there and see what we got and and again if it all blows up the coaches and the GMs have that that security blanket where they can confidently move on and and and not because you know every single coach every single GM in this league is playing like their life is on the line you know because they are they really are I mean the average we always talk about the average player in the nfl last three or four years but the average coach or gm lasts just as long you know so they are kind of really playing for that one contract uh so having that security they can be confident with moving on if they have to and and the best thing about carson wentz is with wentz you seem to either get 34th ranked quarterback or top 10 quarterback that's beautiful i love it

so much better than jacob rossette where you're going to get like the 18th ranked quarterback uh so that's the beauty about carson wentz if he is just what he was last year then perfect we move on we get the top five pick top 10 pick and then we can we can well overdraft one of these bad quarterbacks in 2022 class but but, but you know, that's a conversation for later on the online, but yeah, you know what this year, it's really just a wait and see with this season for me though. It's it's really see what you got with Wentz, with those young positions and kind of just go on from there.

And then the whole conversation is kind of continues in 2022 and fans hate that fans hate kind of kicking that can down the line. That's what the Colts have kind of done these last couple years yeah you know they signed Phillip Rivers last year it's kind of kicking that can down um and training for Wentz might be the same thing but uh you know you just gotta take it as you go with it and see and and yeah hopefully they don't fall into mediocrity kind of like the Vikings have since you know since that NFC championship game loss against the Eagles well and it seems like the similarity too, is that, you know, you have a good coach and a capable front office. And so you don't want to have a three and 14 year. And if you played

Sam Ellinger, you would have probably three and 14 year and you would draft high and it would be great for your franchise. Cause you take Sam Howell or, or whoever Spencer Rattler, like you'd get one of those guys and then you go forth but your front office doesn't want that and your fans don't want that and you're like too you have too many talented players to say hey Darius Leonard sorry pal look I know you're great but we're going 3 and 14 this year like that's just really hard to say and so a lot of Vikings fans will be like well why don't we take back? Well, are you going to tell Delvin Cook that? Are you going to tell, you know what I mean?

It's better on the video games to do that, though. It's so much easier on video games. You know, if you want to tank, you just tank. But then you kind of, and this is actually a bad example because they still got their quarterback. But then you get those situations where your roster you build is so good. You know, like the Chicago Bears last year. Your roster is so good to where you can just throw out Trubisky and Nick Foles I mean two of the worst quarterbacks in football and still make the playoffs and still compete in the playoff I mean I think they got there they didn't compete but they were they

weren't blown out of the water by the Saints so it's like yeah it's it's tough to navigate when like it's tough to navigate when you have a really good GM and good coach and you kind of have mediocrity, a quarterback, or you have like the Colts where your superstar quarterback walks away because like, Oh, we just built up this whole great roster, but we can, we'll never get to the promised land because we don't have that quarterback.

So I like the shot with Wentz because like, maybe he could get there, you know, he's kind of been close to that before. So who knows me, like take that shot, you know, you have a good enough roster where you can take that shot at it. But you know, he's kind of been close to that before. So who knows? Maybe take that shot. You know, you have a good enough roster where you can take that shot at it. But, you know, if it crashes and burns, hopefully they're aggressive enough to go up and get it because they have that security. Yeah, I don't hate the idea because you have seen him have an MVP level year. It's just that the most likely outcome is kind of the worst one. And the same thing existed when they signed Kirk Cousins, where it was like the guy's history tells you that he'll be the 12th best quarterback in the league every year. And he's going to, he's just going to be who he is. And with the Vikings,

just because you paid him to be the highest paid quarterback doesn't change fundamentally what you have here. And so you need to have everything go right and your roster be great. And your roster has had some bumps along the road, like Xavier Rhodes, all of a sudden wasn't good anymore. And then and so your defense was fallible. And then all of a sudden, you know what I mean? And these things sort of kind of collapse around that because the team that's going to go to the Super Bowl has the best player in the world. And that's and that's where you're like, you talk yourself into all these things and then you have to remember, oh yeah, they have Brady. Oh yeah, they have Rogers. Oh yeah, they have a great Ross, you know, that whole sort of thing. So it's interesting to be

in positions like, and that's why I was so excited to talk with you about this, because I feel like you can give similar perspective to where we're at about being one of those teams that everyone has to finish 14th in the league this year yeah it's actually fascinating even looking because like you said you know odds are they're gonna suck or be average right with with veteran quarterbacks you bring in kirk cousins carson wentz uh but i would even go one step further even with the draft stuff i mean unless you're picking first overall uh what are the odds that you trade your two first round picks to move up and get this big armed raw quarterback from Texas Tech?

He's more likely to be a Jake Locker than he is a Pat Mahomes, you know, and then he ends up being the best quarterback in football by far. So it's everything's so risk management and sometimes you just kind of got to go for it. And I kind of like what the Colts where they they were aggressive, but it wasn't overly aggressive to get a guy who has been up there before. And then you can still pivot and survive from it. Would I have wished that they stayed put and just trade up for Justin Fields come draft night? Obviously. I mean, that's what I was going for the whole time.

But, yeah, man, it's fascinating. The NFL is so fascinating because, like, you could do everything. Like, Chris Ballard has done everything right since coming into the league, you know, drafted. Well, he's drafted all pros put is putting together the team that Andrew Luck would have won the Super Bowl with. But because the regime before him ruined Andrew Luck, you don't get to have him win that Super Bowl with the team that you put together. So it's just, you know, it's tough and and kind of how to navigate from that stuff once you've already built that good team, you know, cause like you said, you can't tank, like you're going to tell Darius Leonard that, Oh, Hey, we're tanking.

Don't don't play this year or, you know, or you're going to tell T.Y. Hilton who's in his thirties after, you know, making the playoffs that Andrew left the last couple of years. Hey, we're tanking. Like, you know, it's fine. You know, it's, it's tough. Like tanking is great on paper and I'm all for it because getting that first overall pick and getting a quarterback typically works out and pays off for you.

But you try to tell that to your locker room. Well, there's only so many teams that can ever do it. It's like the Jaguars had all young players or no talent. They had a coach who was just a dead man walking. Like what difference does it make if you win one game and if you sit Gardner Minshew to make sure young players or no talent they had a coach who was just a dead man walking like what what difference does it make if you win one game and if you sit Gardner Minshew to make sure that you lose all the games like that's just like that's fine you could totally do that but you can't just say like last year when the Vikings are one five uh Kirk why don't you take a seat we're gonna play

Sean Mannion the rest of the way even though though if they did, they'd be drafting Zach Wilson and then look how we'd feel right now. And we'd be going, oh my gosh, this situation, Jefferson and cook and deal and Irv Smith, like he's all set up for the future, but you're just not in a position to do something like that. It would take,

it would take a coach basically being told we don't care what happens the rest of the way. So, and Kirk you're gone. And they were, well, it would also take a coach being told like, Hey, we don't care about you going forward either because it's hard to get like Jim Caldwell, Jim Caldwell with the Colts, with when they, when they tanked to get Andrew Luck, Caldwell is a great coach,

like excellent coach, Super Bowl resume you know been to Super Bowl whatever really good coach and he took that decimated roster and they what won two games that year and they got Andrew Luck and he got fired for it and it's like how do you like he's a great coach what do you is he a 2 and 14 coach no he's definitely not a 2 and 14 coach but he got fired for doing exactly what they wanted. And it's, it's yeah. The NFL is crazy.

It's, it's, it's so crazy to look at because you got to look at it from a fan perspective, from analytic perspective, where a fan and an electric are like, yeah, we kind of want to tank to get a Trevor Lawrence,

but these are also people and it's not the video game. It's not something you can just manipulate to get that where there's people's jobs on the line. So it's it's it's always a fascinating conversation with that stuff. And I think about how hard Mike Zimmer fought to win games against Carolina Jacksonville last year that got them, I think, six wins in a row. And what was it worth? Right. Like, what did it mean? So that's an interesting point, because I was thinking tell the coach look you're here no matter what but actually telling the coach look there's no way you're here or just firing him like last year with the detroit lions they just you know let's just blow out patricia and whoever's gonna coach daryl bevel gets coveted or something just like i don't know let somebody's dog coach we just need to lose this game, right? And so then, you know, they end up with a higher draft pick.

But that is not really a position that either one of our teams are in, even though it would be great for them if you could drop a rookie quarterback contract into a roster that's really great. The only other way to do that is sort of what you're trying to do, what the Vikings tried to do with getting an outside quarterback. But there's only one Favre in 09 and there's only one Tom Brady dropping in to the Tampa Bay Bucs. And I don't think Vikings fan will ever get Rodgers here. I'm not sure that's ever going to happen. So it's a really interesting sort of subject to talk about is the, how do you stay

competitive and then get to that Super Bowl? And I think the answer is you just have to hope that one year it goes your way. And it almost did in 2017 for the Vikings, and it has happened before in the past with them. But I think it's the same position for the Colts until there's somebody else playing quarterback or Wentz emerges as the MVP that he was for a year. It's like you just have to hope that all these things click that your kicker makes his kicks and the other team fumbles too much. And you're all the quarterbacks in your division

get hurt. And like, you just, and it does work sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Luck is a big part of it. Luck is a big, big, not Andrew Luck anymore. Just luck in general. It's a big part of it. Luck is a big – not Andrew Luck anymore. Just Luck in general is a big part of it. For sure. Can I ask you, do you think he's ever going to come back? No, no. I think there was actually some smoke around it this past offseason that he was considering it, which, oh, God, it would have been great just throwing back there.

There was some smoke, and I actually talked to a source that did say that he was considering it. apparently when you close the door on that that was it like that was kind of it was kind of spoken between ursae and luck that like that was it you know like it's it's never gonna happen again honestly i feel happy i mean football i love football i love evaluating football i love watching football but whenever a guy hangs it up early, I always feel happy for him. You know, like one of my favorite players ever. When I first started getting into this, I was in high school, and I was watching draft, and I was like,

I think this Chris Borland guy is going to be really good in the NFL. I was pumped. You know, I had him as like a first-round guy on my little, like, notepad or whatever mock draft. And then he was a pro bowler the first year, then he retired. And at the time I was upset about it. But now thinking back, it's like, that guy's probably living his best life. You know, he got a year in the NFL, got pro bowl,

got the incentives and the cash with that and then walk away. And he's, he's going to walk away, you know, relatively concussion free from what the NFL is going to bring and all that. So I was still happy for those guys and moving on from football, even though it sucks not to see them out there anymore. The Vikings just had a player retire. Yeah. Cameron Smith, right? Yeah. After he had a concussion and last year he had heart surgery and I felt the same way. Like I credit you for coming back from that heart surgery,

but good for you, man. Like protect yourself, have a long, happy life. You played in the NFL. You can be proud of that, but don't risk the rest of your life for this. I mean, it's just not worth it. So I totally agree with you there. Give me one thing before we wrap up. It's been a great conversation. Give me one thing that you want to see in terms of like a battle. Like I want to see the Colts, this versus the Vikings, that on Saturday night, because we didn't actually preview this. Like it was the preseason game of the century. Oh man.

You hate to see it. What a mistake. It's so much better to talk about actual team stuff than talk about the preseason game. For sure. The biggest thing I'm excited to see, and I'm super happy. It comes against the Vikings because we have like, we have about four or five guys that are locked in on our defensive line right now. Everyone else is kind of fighting for their life, or it's a young player that we're trying to see more of. And it's the perfect time to run into the Vikings offensive line. after again after watching after watching the broncos game from from last week and seeing some undrafted guys and some backups for the broncos kind of you know winning with ease i'm

excited to see which colts guys can stand can stand out against the vikings offensive line um i actually liked a lot of the vikings offensive line when they were coming out of college it's just they never lived up to what i expected garrett bradbury was one of my favorite draft prospects that year he came out and so many other guys that you guys have but um yeah i think this is a good time for the colts with all this young you know ben banigou cam klein um andrew brown who that's that's a draft twitter throwback there he had a great preseason game last week uh just seeing what those guys can do against the vikings offensive line that from when i watched last week, looked pretty shaky. And from my perspective, it's simply did the Vikings play this week?

Well, and Mike Zimmer calling them out, it puts Target on your back. You now, your team, in a preseason game that means nothing, actually has to go show they care about you a little bit because you went off and so if the second team comes out and gets boat raced again it's gonna be like are they even listening to Zimmer at this point you know like you're gonna start asking that question in the preseason which is just bizarre to me but here we are so yeah um Zach you do tremendous work and I would say that even if you're a Vikings fan listening to this, which I assume that you are, you're a great follow on Twitter, even if you don't care about the Indianapolis Colts at all.

Just cool football stuff. You do interviews, articles, your stuff on the quarterback gurus working with Carson Wentz and things like that. Super interesting. So, at Zach, Z-A-C-H, you're one of those people. At Zach Hicks 2, and the number 2, Zach Hicks 2. So I advise everyone, go follow your work. You do great stuff.

And thanks for the time, man. I'm glad that we had at least this preseason game to get together. We should just do it when our teams are not playing because I enjoy having you on the show. Yeah, man, anytime during draft season or whatever. Maybe come February when both our teams from the Super Bowl, you know, we just talked the whole time here about them not getting there. You know, come February when they're both in the Super Bowl,

we can do this again. I think you made the same joke last time. It didn't exactly work out for either one of us last year. Well, at least that matchup was good in week two back then. No, probably. Actually, the two most miserable games I think I've ever covered are both Vikings Colts. And I'm sure there are a couple other ones mixed in there, but 34 to six at U S bank stadium in 2016.

And then last year, just so I think last year was what? 27 to six or something or something around then too. Yeah. There was a garbage time touchdown as there usually is. So Zach, great stuff, man. around then too. Yeah. There was a garbage time touchdown as there usually is. So Zach, great stuff, man. Really enjoy following you and following your work and seeing you get more opportunities. It's a love to see it. So we will talk again soon, man. Thanks for coming on.

Awesome. Thanks buddy.