Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Barr to IR, analyzing QB tiers with Bleacher Report's Kalyn Kahler

Episode Date: September 22, 2020

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the Chevy Silverado is in a league of its own. Strong, advanced, and dependable. Download TE1 today, wherever you listen to podcasts. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here. And before we get to my conversation with Kalen Kaler of Bleacher Report, in which we talk about quarterback situations, the old quarterbacks, the mid-tier, the young quarterbacks, we're going to go through all of them and what it means to have one of those quarterbacks as your franchise QB. That in just a moment.

But first, I want to start out by talking about Anthony Barr being put on IR with a torn pec. And here's my takeaway on this, that the Vikings are going to have an opportunity this year at a lot of different positions, including linebacker, to learn exactly what they have on defense going forward and now add linebacker to the list because already we've been finding out what they have along the defensive line. Yannick Ngakwe was terrific on Sunday and showed exactly why they traded for him and why they will likely at some point sign him to a long-term contract extension. We have seen very little from Armond Watts. We've seen very little from Julio Johnson, Hercules Mata'afa, Jalen Holmes. All these players are being given a chance to make some noise here for the future, and through two games, not too many of them have.

Eric Wilson now, with Anthony Barr out, he enters that conversation. And I did a big piece for purpleinsider.com on Eric Wilson earlier this offseason and talked to a lot of people who were very impressed by his rise to someone who has had a big role over the last couple of seasons. And now he's going to be a starter on this team and take over the Anthony Barr role. And I think that that opens the door for potentially the Vikings going with Eric Wilson in the future. If they were to move on from Anthony Barr, it would make them about $7.5 million, $7.7

to be exact, on the salary cap for next year. And he's set to make $15.5 million cap hit for next year. So if they want to do things like sign Brian O'Neill to a long-term contract extension, franchise tag Yanni Ngakwe potentially and so forth, and have other salary cap hits like Kirk Cousins go up in 2021, they might be looking around and saying, well, where can we make some extra space? If Eric Wilson plays tremendously well down the road, that gives them the opportunity to do that.

However, I would still say and caution that Mike Zimmer has always been a huge fan of Anthony Barr. So this does not mean it's necessarily the end for Barr. It just leaves the possibility of them finding something very, very good in Eric Wilson. So now on a week-to-week basis, we're going to see how he plays out. And the other guy to watch closely is Troy Dye. He was there for a fourth-round pick that a lot of draft analysts were in love with and thought this guy could be a top-two-round pick with the ability to cover running backs out of the backfield and tight ends.

He had a great athletic profile for what a linebacker is in the 2020s, and I think the Vikings felt like they got a feel in Troy Dye. Well, now he takes over the Eric Wilson role, and we could see him play 20-30% of the snaps. If someone gets banged up, we could see a lot of Troy die. And it's 0-2. They're in a very, very tough spot here. They could turn it around with a couple of wins and all of a sudden we're having the discussion about the NFC North again. But as we have these conversations about the future, this is going to be a major focus of mine going forward here. Who can play? And in the secondary, we saw Jeff Gladney have a pretty tough first start. Six catches on eight targets, over

70 yards against for Jeff Gladney. But through the season, we're going to be looking, how does he grow? How does Cameron Dantzler grow? Can Holton Hill turn around a tough start? Will they eventually sign Mike Hughes to a fifth-year option? And the only position where we weren't looking at this through the lens of evaluation is linebacker, and now with Anthony Barr out, that's how we're going to look at it. I would also say that it's not an easy position to just take over, that I believe Mike Zimmer, when he talks about the value of Anthony Barr and all the things that he brings to the table is someone who gets the calls and makes those calls and can communicate and he can cover running backs out of the backfield he can cover

tight ends he can cover a lot of space in zones he's very effective blitzing and the only thing is we won't see him in a huge blitzing role, which I know that a lot of you have wanted for a long, long time, is Anthony Barr to be an edge rusher. I guess that's not going to happen. So maybe if he does end up on another team, they'll make him an edge rusher, and we'll get to see that play out. But it won't be this year because he's out for the season with a torn pec. So other quick takeaways from watching a little bit of the film back, looking at the statistics, is we talked about with Pat Elfline, it could be worse.

It was worse. Drew Samia talked today and said he didn't feel out of place out there, but he looked that way in the game on Sunday against the Colts. So Mike Zimmer said that he's going to sit down with the offense and the leaders on the offense and try to figure out what has been going on. And I look at this like there will be games where this offense gets it together. There's just too much talent. But how do they solve the issues where the quarterback just doesn't look like he's

willing to throw it to anybody who's covered? Wide receivers are not getting open. Stephon Diggs, huge day on Sunday, of course, in Buffalo, that just like saying with Pat Elfline, oh, it can't be worse, so it's easy to replace, it's fine. Or even with the corners, oh, it can't be worse, it's fine. Well, thinking that drafting a wide receiver, throwing in another guy, putting another player in a different position in Adam Thielen, oh, it'll just make up the difference.

Well, it's harder than that. And now I think that they have to be aggressive, and I think that they have to be creative if they're going to make this a fun season on offense. I think a lot of us that look at it now and say, thinking that this is going to be 10 and 6 that we predicted before the year, that's pretty tough. But could this still be fun if they take a more aggressive approach? I think that that potential is there, and it will be quite the turnaround if Gary Kubiak

and Mike Zimmer figure out how to make this a winning team. Okay, let's get to the conversation with Kalen Kaler of Bleacher Report. A Bleacher Report contributing NFL columnist and feature writer, former MMQB writer, and also author of one of the craziest article series I've ever read on Kabir Bajabiamila. Kalen Kaler, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Can we just talk about that for a second? First of all, it was amazing work on Bajabiamila. Kaylin Kaler, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Can we just talk about that for a second?

First of all, it was amazing work on Bajabiamila. If people haven't seen it, they should go to your Twitter because you've got it pinned, at Kaylin Kaler. Six months of work into a complete wild ride of someone that I used to play with on Madden because he had great speed so you could rush him off the edge. And I guess the main thing I took away is with the football players we cover, sometimes there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than we understand.

Yeah, so Kabir made local news in Green Bay back in December for a very weird incident where he wasn't arrested, but police had to show up and they arrested two people that he's associated with. And they were originally described as his followers, but really they're just sort of members of this extreme religious group that he's part of. So he kind of made local news in Green Bay. And I remember reading those headlines like on the Green Bay Press-Gazette and being like,

what is going on here? There's a lot more than meets the eye. And he actually did sit down with an interview with the Green Bay Press-Gazette and being like, what is going on here? There's a lot more than meets the eye. And he actually did sit down with an interview with the Green Bay Press-Gazette even then, sort of explaining his religious beliefs and, you know, what happened. Because basically the incident was he was unhappy that his children, he is now divorced, but he was unhappy that his children, who he hadn't seen in two years or like spoken to in two years were part of a Christian Christmas program. He now doesn't identify as Christian and he thinks Christmas is a pagan ritual. So he was very unhappy that his kids are part of this. So he has two of his members of this religion show up and videotape and it caused a scene and the police had to come because they were trespassing and all

of these different things. But it basically set off all the alarms of this is a great story and I wanted to figure out how did he, because he was really well known in his career for being a very fanatic Christian, someone who would always bring up God and Jesus and his religious beliefs in all of his interviews. He really used his platform for that. So this was really interesting to me of, like, what was the transformation to where he is now, where he's involved in this group that some people I interviewed referred to as a cult, and people who are close to him are, like, very concerned where his life is headed because, you know, he is divorced now and it's kind of really separated. His new beliefs have completely separated his family.

And in my interview with him, he doesn't even like recognize his eight children with his former wife. He doesn't even recognize them as like really being his children. He talked about them. He compared them to plants at one point, like crops. It was very, it was just really interesting and I think with where America is today with so many people going down the YouTube rabbit holes and becoming extreme in their opinions and their views it felt really relatable and it felt it was

it was really interesting to sort of learn how easy it is to go down that path without even really knowing that you're changing your entire life and maybe believing in conspiratorial things. So that was what I took away that was so fascinating is like how easy it is to do that and how we see that in all different other areas of life here. It's a great point, and that was kind of my sense as well, of somebody who seemed to have a real inquisitive mind, and yet sort of once you connect yourself into the YouTube machine and you can be influenced by the wrong people, and also there's a lot of people who are very willing to take advantage of those who are looking for to take advantage of those who are looking for direction and it seemed like that is what happened to him so I won't ruin the rest of

the piece but it was brilliantly written and reported and I highly suggest that I tweeted out a while back but it's it's tagged in in your um in your twitter there so you need like three hours to read it yes yeah it does take a a while, but it's totally worth it, and it's pretty supporting. And also just I thought too that when we think about players and what we see on the field and what we see in the locker room, we make a lot of judgments about, well, this guy's a good locker room guy or this is – and what really stuck out to me was that he was kind of driving

everybody with the Packers insane, including Aaron Rodgers. And he was really disruptive with it. Eventually, the kind of farther he went and the more aggressive he got about his fanaticism, he started to drive the team insane. And so sometimes we see a team moves on from a player or cuts a player. We all go, well, what? That guy had five sacks last year. What are you doing? And sometimes there's more than meets the eye, I would say, at sports, and we always need to consider that. There's so much that goes on in the locker room that we as reporters don't know about and that fans don't know about, and it's so interesting.

I mean, he's been out of the league for over 10 years now, but it's so interesting to go back and talk to the former teammates who can really tell you, like, what exactly it was like to be sharing a locker room with this guy who couldn't have a normal conversation without pivoting towards Christianity. And not even in a nice way, but in a very black and white, judgmental way, always sort of putting people, kind of making people feel guilty for their life choices and their sins. So that was really fascinating. Yes, for sure. So definitely go find it and it's worth your three hours, I promise you. So let's talk about quarterbacks because you wrote about how Tom Brady is absolutely washed. And so when he wins MVP, people will tweet at you and tell you that you were wrong. Now that people are already doing that to me with Aaron Rodgers

because it's been a running joke on the show, Rodgers is washed, and so far through two weeks, not so much. But what it made me think of when you wrote about Tom Brady is how the quarterbacks in the NFL have sort of broken off into these very clear tiers. You have old dudes who are legends who are still really, really good at football, including Brady, at least for yesterday. And then you have your middle tier of Kirk Cousins, Matt Stafford, maybe Jimmy Garoppolo even starts to fall in this sort of category of guys where there needs to be a lot that goes right

for them to win. They're very expensive. They're middle-aged at this point, and their teams are always sort of looking at them with a bit of a side eye, like should we be paying you this much? Can you really get it done? And then there is the young up-and-coming quarterbacks who are, I mean, changing the way that we look at the game, and you and I were talking about Kyler Murray in this. So let me just start with what we think of the old guys,

because we're recording this on Monday. So if Breeze throws five interceptions, unlikely, but we can change the way we talk about them. But it is remarkable to me, and I'd love your opinion on why these quarterbacks who are going into their 40s are still able to do what they're doing in a league where we're constantly talking about the Russell Wilsons and Deshaun Watsons and Patrick Mahomes is and yet Rodgers, Brees, Brady so at least so far are still able to do it I don't know if you

have an opinion from your travels and people that you've talked to of how that is still able to happen I think a big part of it is just their wealth of experience. And, you know, in Brady's case, I was talking to people around the league, asking the question, like, does anyone think that he's washed? And nobody, I got one person who was like, yeah, you know, this is a concerning pattern of his pick sixes and his interceptions at this point. But everybody else, and these are scouts, and these are kind of assistant coach type people that I was talking to,

and everyone else was very clearly, like, hesitant to provide any bulletin board material or any sort of criticism because I think they've just historically been on the wrong side of a Brady comeback win or a Brady dominant victory too many times. And I think that experience really serves Brady well, especially with starting over as a new team. And I do think that they've just come so far in terms of taking care of their bodies. Like somebody sent me, somebody tweeted at me a picture of Ken Stabler at age 40.

I think he was 40, so he was three years younger than Brady at the time the picture was taken but he looked like he was like 65 like he looked awful and that's just a big part of like you know it was the era where like players are still smoking cigarettes you know like off the field so I think just in terms of body care it's just gotten the technology and and the knowledge of how to maintain your body so you can continue to play at this level is just so much greater than it was even 15 you know even when these guys started playing um you know 20 years ago in Brady's case so I think that's a big part of it too and and I do think they're just able to stay relevant just because of their wealth

of experience that they have you know in Phillip case, I actually think that Colts, you know, would be better served if they had just played Jacoby Brissett. I think he deserved a second chance to prove himself as the starter after last season where, you know, he wasn't amazing, but he also wasn't awful. He was just kind of middle of the road. So I do think in the Rivers case, I'm not sure if I would place him in this tier with Brady. I don't know if we count Rodgers as being that old. I think so, yeah. I would, yeah. So it's like Brady, Rodgers, Breeze, Ben Roethlisberger.

I don't know if I would put Rivers up there just because of week one and his performance last season. But, you know, if the Colts' defense plays like they did in week two, I think, you know, it'll be better for him. He just needs a defense that's really going to pick up the slack, you know. I think somebody helped out their defense. I can't think of who exactly, which we could get to a little bit in the middle tier. But staying with the old guys, my theory on this is that your body point is exactly right.

I saw Drew Brees worked with a throwing coach to maximize every bit of whatever is still hanging off of his shoulder there. And even from Rivers' perspective, his first two games haven't been magical. I don't see them as a Super Bowl team. But he could still play NFL quarterback at his age with the amount of miles that are on that body and still win games. And he threw for 360 yards. He's just going to throw that interception that will be problematic every single week.

So that can be an issue for them being a real contender. But the fact that he's still doing it, I mean, I remember you go back to the 90s and you'd see quarterbacks at 32, 33, 34 where you're talking about retiring. And when Vinny Testaverde was in his 40s, it was like, this guy is 1,000 years old. How is he surviving? And yet now it's the expectation that these guys can get to that point. And I think that it's the body combined with how complicated the game is

and how smart a lot of the coaches are and innovative that you could just keep piling on different things with these guys. Josh McDaniels with Brady could do whatever he wants. Bruce Arians can do whatever he wants with these older quarterbacks where less experienced quarterbacks, you can't add things and add things and add things and add things. And also, there's only so many ways you can play defense in the NFL. And these guys have seen every single way you can play defense, and they know how to handle every single way. And I think that those things are kind of combining, plus the rules that you can't, you know, grab them by the horse collar and throw them five yards like Lawrence Taylor would have. I think that all those things are sort of a culmination that are allowing these quarterbacks to play longer.

And you made a good point that made me think of the college game. When these guys played in college, they were playing, you know, they were taking snaps under center. They were doing more where they had to voice longer play calls. They weren't looking to the sideline, getting a symbol, and then a one-word play call. Whereas now the college game has changed so much that these college quarterbacks, when they come into the NFL, it's such a harder transition for them. And it's so much harder for a rookie quarterback to really be good and to

really contribute because they are tasked with learning these 15 18 word play calls that they've never had to do in the past so I think that's a big part of it too um is it's just taking longer to break in these younger quarterbacks because the college game has changed so much where it's you know almost completely completely different than the NFL pro-style offense. So I think that's a big part of it. Now, my question on this tier, because we all know these quarterbacks, we're all very familiar with them, is do you want to be in this tier? And I think the answer is mostly yes.

I mean, the Colts example where they'll probably go 8-8 or 7-9 or something like that, and they'll look at it and go, yeah, maybe we should have drafted a quarterback or maybe we should have given Brissette another chance because we weren't really a Superbowl contender to begin with everybody else though. Maybe Atlanta. I think Matt Ryan is in this tier as well. Maybe Atlanta. So the way that I'm thinking about this tier is if you've got the hall of famer surefire can absolutely still win you a Superbowl, then yes, you want to be in this tier is if you've got the hall of famer surefire can absolutely still win

you a super bowl then yes you want to be in this tier but there's quarterbacks who are kind of coming toward this tier eventually where you might go are you gonna want matt stafford in this tier do you want matt ryan in this tier like guys who are getting a little bit older that you're looking forward and going i wonder what that's going to to look like or who's going to want these guys. You know what I mean? Like I don't think it's just going to be the Hall of Famers. It's going to be everybody who ends up at 40 eventually in that tier. And then it kind of gets hard because I think if you're Atlanta,

Ryan could still play obviously, but, you know, I mean, you're really in need of a rebuild there around them, and yet you've got this older franchise quarterback. I like Matt Ryan a lot, and I think, I mean, you're really in need of a rebuild there around them, and yet you've got this older franchise quarterback. I like Matt Ryan a lot, and I think, I mean, yesterday's game was just insane. Yes, it was. And I really think, you know, of anyone who's innocent in that game, it's probably Matt Ryan. Yeah, that's true.

You know, I mean, you can't really pin any of the Cowboys' comeback on him. So I do think I think Matt Ryan is reliable and I'm actually way higher on Matt Stafford than you are like I would put Stafford in the top tier of quarterbacks um and I think he's one of the most like there's two players that come to mind right now that I just feel so bad for every week, and it's Allen Robinson with the Bears because he just deserves a better quarterback. That's on him because he could have played somewhere else in free agency the last time he was a free agent.

He chose Chicago, so I feel bad for him, but he did choose Chicago knowing Mitch Trubisky was going to be the quarterback for the next few years. But he had Blake Bortles before that, and so I just feel so bad for that guy. But the second one is Matt Stafford. If Matt Stafford, last year Matt Stafford, nobody really noticed because the Lions defense was so bad, but he was playing at like an MVP level before his back injury, which happened I think midway through the season last year.

So he was having a great first eight weeks as far as Detroit's offense and his play goes. And I just think he's just been on some really bad teams. And, again, this year Detroit's defense looks awful. So I don't think he's going to get his due again. And he also hasn't played up to his standard for the first few weeks I would say um but he's a he's a guy where I think if he was on a different team and like freed of Detroit I think people would give him the credit he deserves because I think he's really talented

and um I would say I would definitely want him as a old guy so I I agree I agree that I mean last year of course he was marvelous that he has had the short end of the stick here I I did a podcast with some Lions reporters who were talking about how they've only run for a hundred yards like a dozen times since Barry Sanders retired it's I mean the numbers on how bad they've been even the the running game and in the defense long term have been remarkable from but by the same token if he's Patrick Mahomes level talent they're probably better I think you know he's sort of like that next notch down to where you get into your your middle guys like Jimmy Garoppolo like Kirk Cousins I think I think I would take Stafford over Cousins but you know you compare you compare their careers and you go well you know Cousins. I think I would take Stafford over Cousins, but you compare their careers and you go, well, Cousins has had a lot more weapons around him a lot of times,

but Stafford still hasn't had the winning success over a pretty long sample size. Lots of different teammates, lots of different coaches, and nobody can quite get him over that hump. So I kind of go, well, what am I missing here between the, I see him make these crazy throws and he's very talented, versus what he's had to deal with, and then the fact that he just hasn't done a whole lot of winning, right? So it's like, how do I balance all of those things?

And I think that this is what we run into with all those quarterbacks in that other tier, in the Jimmy Garoppolo. I might even put Jared Goff there, even though he's younger, but it's second to contract. And to me, this is the hardest tier to deal with if you're a team, is the Kirk Cousins tier, because you're always having that conversation, like should we have paid him, should we pay him, and what does it take around him to win?

Because clearly, even though Stafford is good, it takes more than they've been able to put around him. Yeah, and I think the problem here is there's really just not 32 starting quarterbacks to begin with. So it's like if you have someone who's pretty good, you might as well pay them. So I see where the Vikings you know you can absolutely see why the Vikings made the decision that they did and why you know they

extended him the way that they did um so it makes a lot of sense it's just kind of like how there aren't really 32 number one receivers in the league either there really aren't 32 starting quarterbacks um it's just a shortage of that elite talent and I think the interesting part about maybe Cousins' decline in the first couple weeks this season, which we were sort of talking about before this, is the trade of Stephon Diggs to Buffalo. And both of the teams that traded their number one receivers this offseason, so Houston with DeAndre Hopkins and Minnesota with Stephon Diggs,

both of those teams, they're 0-4 collectively, and the teams that got those players are 4-0. So, you know, you can't say it's because they got these number one receivers, but in Diggs' case, you know, he had 153 yards, 13 targets, eight catches, and a touchdown yesterday. He leads the league in passing yards per game. He's tied with Calvin Ridley. They have 359 yards this season in receiving yards.

Hopkins is fifth in the league in receiving yards. So these are players that are having a huge influence on their team's offense, and both the Cardinals and the Bills' offense are, you know, up there in the top scoring offenses in the league. So I do think that's an interesting point of how the teams that did that appear to be the losers. And I think Adam Thielen is better served as a number two receiver. You know, what do you think?

No, yeah, I mean, I completely agree that Stephon Diggs just makes people better and by a lot. If you look at Case Keenum, if you look at Teddy Bridgewater, when they were throwing to Stephon Diggs just makes people better, and by a lot. If you look at Case Keenum, if you look at Teddy Bridgewater, when they were throwing to Stephon Diggs, they collectively, in his career, quarterbacks have 110 quarterback rating when throwing his way. I mean, you're playing at MVP level when you target Stephon Diggs, and when I've seen, you know, because I'm originally from Buffalo, seeing the followers come into my mentions

or people that I still follow from Buffalo tweeting about it. It's like, did you guys in Minnesota know Stephon Diggs was this good? Yes. Yes, we did. Yeah. And Kirk Cousins last year has Thielen go down and just targets Diggs all the time, and it worked phenomenally for their offense. And not having someone who's guaranteed to be able to create his own separation

all the time, it impacts Cousins. And that's where I think the question gets really interesting, even with someone like Dak Prescott, who I put in this same sort of Cousins, Stafford, Garoppolo, Goff tier, that all of them, I think, are subject to being impacted heavily by what's around them. And we're really seeing that over the first couple of weeks with Cousins. I don't expect Kirk Cousins to play like this for a full season. I'm sure that he'll have his good games. But in terms of the full picture, in 2017, Washington's team falls apart and Cousins' performance goes way down.

And Jared Goff, last year, his offensive line couldn't block. His performance goes way down. And that's where I think this is really interesting in terms of, A, how these quarterbacks age, like we're talking about with the tiers, but also just the money that gets sold out for them that I think that there might be some teams that look at it and say, like you said, guaranteed we have a guy that if we put a good team around him, he'll win. But the other way of looking at it is if he can only win if he has a great team around him how

does that calculus work with the salary cap and fitting him and all these other players that we would need to win yeah and i would put carson wentz in here too yes definitely yeah i think he was a good example of that your point season, when their receiving core was just horrendous due to injuries. And we just saw the Eagles really struggle. Like they couldn't get anything going on offense, and it was really tough for them in the stretch where they were without speed in their receiving core. So I think I would put Carson Wentz right into this category as well.

Yeah. So here's my question the prevailing thought is like do you want one of these guys do you want an expensive Carson Wentz do you want an expensive Jared Goff an expensive Jimmy Garoppolo an expensive Matt Stafford or I mean even if you if you put let's let's even exclude Stafford because maybe you put him in a higher tier of quality than the other guys. But just take those guys. With Dallas, I think a lot of people went, Dallas, what are you doing? What are you doing? But Dak Prescott, I think, falls in this same category, and they're very close to being 0-2, even despite all the weapons that they have on the offensive side. So that's my question is, would you rather be only in the tier of old guys

or only in the tier of young guys, or is this still a decent place to be? I think it depends on what the alternative is because, I mean, as you said, that's a tough question because, you know, as I said before, like there's just not 32 starting quarterbacks. So it's sort of like what is the alternative if the alternative is like mitch trubisky then that's right you know and that's it he's an interesting person too because i don't know where he would fall if he falls under sort of the people that we're not the young guys that we're not sure about yet um or if he's now old enough to be just a total game manager type i think he falls

under the ej manual we're pretty sure you're bad by the third year of your career and we're just and your team or really maybe the blake bortles of like your team got kind of convinced but the reality is the guy's not good right so i just it really just depends on the alternative. You know, there are, there are these sort of guys that are really serviceable backups around like Andy Dalton. And I think Mitch would definitely want this middle tier over any of them. But I think I'd rather have an old semi-washed legend. Want to remind you to go to SodaStick.com to get your original Minnesota sports inspired goods. They just launched their official collaboration with Bud Grant. Yes, Bud Grant. You can now get your official Bud Grant shirt and Man Cave art print.

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and look for the contactless symbol and tap to pay with a contactless visa to help support your community because where and how you shop matters. Visa, everywhere you want to be, official partner of the NFL. I guess what comes to mind for me with the middle tier is that, I mean, the last two Super Bowl quarterbacks from the NFC are in the tier that we're talking about. So if you've got the right timeline and you've got the right roster and you've got the right coach, then you want one of these guys.

And this is where I think after two weeks, the biggest conversation we're having is you had that situation with Kirk in 2018 and 2019 with a great team and everything kind of went your way and you had a chance at it. It didn't work out, but you had a chance at it. So that's more justifiable than where they are now, which is in the need to rebuild. And that's kind of with the Stafford thing where he gets caught up in this.

They're constantly changing coaches, rebuilding, changing coordinators and all those things. And he's never had that McVay or Shanahan and sort of perfect situation that aligns for him to be able to go to a Super Bowl. So I think the answer is, yes, you can do that with that type of quarterback and be in a good spot, but only if it's the right situation. Now, here's a guy, I want to know your opinion on Cam Newton and what he's done in these first two, because I think I'd put him in this category still, but he's sort of a unique monster when it comes to this

because he just plays the position so much differently than everyone else, and he was thought to be in a bad spot with New England, didn't look bad last night when he was throwing like crazy all over the field and so forth. So I'm curious what you think about how this ended up to be with Newton being passed over by so many teams. Maybe they didn't want to have a mid-tier quarterback that, or a lot of the teams that were set up already had them.

I don't know. But I look at Chicago and go, why not? Why didn't you do the Cam thing? Yeah, that's infuriating. I don't like thinking about that too much. Really. It's just, I don't get it. I don't understand it at all. With Cam, based on how he's playing week one, week two,

I'm tempted to put him in like the top tier as far as like these dual threat guys go. I totally agree. I would like to see Cam Newton being available in a different season because I think like next year or last year because I think he was really hurt by the fact that he had all these injuries that people weren't sure about and they weren't really able to get full confidence on you know doing a physical with him getting their team doctor to get their hands on him getting him into their building when their building was closed for the majority of this offseason.

So I do think the whole coronavirus limitations impacted the teams that may have been interested in him. So I'd like to see this take place in a different year and see if it ends differently. But I was really surprised that it took so long for him to find a home because, yes, you know, the foot injury was concerning because that's so much of his game. And, yes, his shoulder injuries are also a question mark. But, you know, I think I just think he's proved he had proved enough and was wouldn't be that expensive. Like, what is he worth to the Patriots right now? Like one million, I think.

Like, I mean, they're paying nothing for him. It's totally insane. And that's why it just makes no sense to me that the Bears wouldn't take a fire on that when they freaking traded a fourth-round pick for Nick Foles and took on a giant contract. And he's your backup? I don't know. Like, it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any sense to me and with that decision i just think they really wanted to give mitch another shot

and if they brought in cam cam was the clear starter like if cam was healthy he is 10 times better than mitch trubisky so i just think in that case they they almost want it feels like they wanted to make a move to make everyone feel better. Like, oh, we're doing something. But they didn't bring in anyone that was clearly more talented than Mitch because I don't think Nick Foles is clearly better. I think he can be better in certain situations. But I don't think he was the clear winner. And from their training camp, he didn't outright win the job.

So, yeah, I think that's what happened there but Cam has been awesome and I I am not surprised at all I picked Bill Belichick as my coach of the year because of that because I I thought you know if anybody is a coach that can adapt to their player strength it's Belichick we've seen that so many times like there really isn't a Patriots style there only was because Tom Brady was their quarterback for 20 years and as Bill said recently in a press conference like everything they were doing on offense was for Tom was to fit Tom's strength so now we see a completely different Patriots offense because they have a different quarterback and they're able to design things specifically for that better than any other team in the league

um i just want to say you're not bitter about chicago not signing cam it seems like you've gotten over it you're totally fine with it there's no problems there uh maybe in like five years i'll be i mean it's really the first bad quarterback decision chicago's ever made. Right. I grew up a Bears fan, and sometimes it's hard to, like, let go of the fact that Bears fans are just never going to have a quarterback. I mean, it is crazy that, like, aside from Sid Luckman, Jay Cutler is your god quarterback. Like, he's the guy that if you're drafting all Bears quarterbacks, you put number one.

And then after number one, it's like Kyle Orton? I don't know. I mean, Jim McMahon obviously was super cool. I picked Rex Grossman for the 2006. Rex Grossman. Yes. Yes. Rex is our quarterback.

I will always remember it for that. Well, aside from that, so that's, there's almost like a little corner. It's not a tier. It's a little corner of a tier. That is the quarterback isn't believed in anymore by his team and then goes somewhere else into a good situation. And New England, I don't care who their receivers are, is always a good situation.

This is the Ryan Tannehill tier. And it might be the Kirk Cousins tier in some ways because he went from Washington to Minnesota. And so there's almost this little, like, you've got to have your binoculars on if you're a team without a quarterback, always looking for what idiot franchise might let go a good quarterback. Although I would say Carolina was justified considering where they are. They weren't going to win.

But even in a way, Teddy is in this of, hey, this guy was a backup and he's kind of out there, so let's see if this works out. And it might work out for them. It certainly worked out for Tennessee. Now, I think that the younger tier is fascinating because it's both the best and the worst. If you're the New York Giants and Daniel Jones is no better at all than he was last year. And Sam Darnold is on year three and he's no better than he was.

And his team is tremendously dumb. He's a, by the way, Darnold ends up in the other tier that goes to another team and is good eventually. Total aside on that. But it is amazing to me. And this goes for kind of hey Vikings fans think out in the future here if you want to move on from Cousins it can be both the best and it can be the worst because if you've built a good team and then your young guy isn't good all of a

sudden your franchise is in super big trouble if so Josh Allen's been good so far if Josh Allen falls apart over the next few weeks and he's awful this year the Buffalo Bills have put together this phenomenal roster and can't win because their young quarterback isn't good so it's this this is the the most fascinating tier because if you hit on it oh my gosh you're amazing for a long time yep I think Daniel Jones actually gets an unfair uh rap this season I mean he's got nothing. Nothing. And now he has less than nothing because Saquon Barkley, I don't know,

did they say if he tore his ACL? Yeah, Schefter reported he tore his ACL. So sorry to everyone's fantasy team. I mean, they're going to have to redesign their entire offense because for the last three years or however long Barkley has been in the league, it's been the Barkley show. That's how they've kind of been running things there, which is not really smart considering the injury risk at that position. And, yeah, I mean, so I feel for Daniel Jones. I do think he has a lot of potential still.

And I think he's doing, honestly, the best that he can on that team. So I'm willing to, I'm willing to say that Daniel Jones is going to be a good quarterback. Josh Allen, totally agree. Like he's been great. I think, I think they're going to be really good. And I think he's just going to continue to make, to learn to make smarter decisions and those Joshosh allen mistakes where like week one where you just coughs up that coughs up the ball um playoff game too yeah exactly i think those mistakes are slowly going to eliminate themselves but on the other hand like they're leading the league and

in passing yards right now so i think i think it's sort of a trade-off and i think it's gonna be worth it. And in the end, I don't think they're going to be losing games because of Josh Allen this season. So I really like what he's doing. And then another guy in this category who's only had one game that I wanted to talk about was Justin Herbert, the shocker, yesterday. Obviously, he's only played one game now, but the dude had five he said in his post-game press conference he had five to ten seconds before the kickoff when he found out he was going to start the game because tyra taylor had some mysterious chest pain they said the charger said after the

game that he was having difficulty breathing so they sent him to the hospital um and it happened like right after pre-game warm-. So there was literally no time. Like, this was not gamesmanship by Anthony Lynn, like, keeping it a secret that Justin Herbert was going to start. This was, like, complete unknown territory. And I think, I mean, he was incredible for having five seconds notice. So I would put him in sort of the let's see what we get, you know, could be great category. I mean, after his first game, it looks awesome. And, you know, he had one kind of

boneheaded rookie mistake where he threw an interception instead of, he could have just ran for the yardage for the first down and he chose to throw it. But other than that, he had 311 yards, 66% completion rate, 14 yards per catch per catch i mean it was really good and the thing that confuses me about him and so tyra taylor i don't know what tier he would be in he's in the ryan fitzpatrick tier of this guy starts because we got another guy right and i feel bad for him because this always happens to him but anth Lynn said if he if if Taylor was healthy he would start him he's the starter which to me really makes no sense because I mean if you just look at this season week one against the Bengals uh Taylor had a 53 completion rating pass for 208 yards six yards per attempt no passing touchdowns and it's not like the Chiefs defense yesterday is a league leading

defense I would kind of put the Bengals and Chiefs in the same tier of defenses definitely among the bottom tier of the league's defenses but you know that kind of evens out the competition then and you just see that and you're like there's so many throws that Herbert made yesterday that I don't think Taylor would ever attempt because he's much more conservative. So I don't know what the benefit is. You've already broke the seal. You started your rookie, and he proved he can cut it against the freaking Super Bowl champs. And obviously a big part of that was the Chargers defense playing an amazing game against Patrick Mahomes.

But I don't know what the benefit is. If you've already played your rookie, what is the benefit of benching him? Maybe there is a benefit, and I'm actually going to do some reporting on that this week and ask people, is there a benefit to sitting Justin Herbert now after you already started? And they have the Panthers next, which is not a really tough opponent. It's not like they're playing 49ers defense with Nick Bosa or something. So who, you know, they wouldn't be playing Nick Bosa anyways

because of his injury. Because of ACLs and everyone is tearing their ACLs. Yeah. Maybe, just an aside, maybe players will rethink that whole thing where they said, oh, it's totally fine if we have no OTAs and mini camps and off-season workouts and everything. It's a lot of injuries. But to your point, I totally agree with you.

Once you've gotten him in the game and he hasn't looked terrified, then I don't see why not because coaches get convinced that they can win the Superbowl, even when they can't, even like all of us can see it from the outside. Sorry, chargers. This ain't happening this year. But what they'll say is, well, we just played the Chiefs very close, so we must be actually good, and we want to have our veteran starter give us a chance to go win and get in the playoffs, and the answer shouldn't be that. Now, where I have to, of course, compare everything through the lens of Kirk Cousins, and so when we look at this tier of young players, okay, everyone would trade Kirk Cousins for Kyler Murray right now

because Kyler Murray, I think, is going to emerge in the ballpark of the great quarterbacks in the NFL. But there are a lot of these that would be really interesting conversations. Like, would you trade Kirk for Drew Locke or Dwayne Haskins or even Baker Mayfield right now? Because, I mean, he beat the Bengals but as you mentioned that's not like a super great accomplishment considering their defense and and I wonder what you think of this with just some of the even someone like Tua or Sam Darnold who's got a

little bit of a sample size on him if you're in the middle tier and you're not necessarily a Super Bowl contender with your Garoppolo Staff Stafford, Cousins, Goff, even Dak, like, would you trade those guys straight up for someone like Justin Herbert having almost no sample size on him aside from Sunday? Probably not. I don't know. I think it's too much of a risk. Like, I had high hopes for Drew Locke this season um because I think he was really exciting last year and you know I thought this would be a really good year for him but he he's hurt you know he just got hurt he's going to be out I don't know how many weeks but multiple weeks at least and so I think it's just too hard to I mean the jury's going to be out on him even longer

now that he's injured so I just think it's too risky I think unless unless it was a guy that in the draft process you almost took them or something and you felt really confident and it's like the same general manager who did the work on that quarterback and and was like oh you know I love this guy like I talked to everyone about him watch all of his if you if it was that situation where this was a quarterback, this was like your top quarterback in the draft in whatever year, then I could understand it. But I do think it's too risky for the reasons that, you know, we talked about before with the college game being so different

and really it makes it so much harder to project how soon a quarterback is going to be ready and, you know, if they will ever honestly be able to pick up that side of the game. Because we've seen, you know, two interesting quarterbacks, first round guys this year, Paxton Lynch, couldn't even win the third round, third round, third, third string quarterback job in Pittsburgh. And he was completely out of the game last season, I think,

if I'm right about that. So Paxson was someone who could not pick up the mental side of the game and, you know, think fast enough to read NFL defenses. And Josh Rosen, same thing. Josh Rosen's now on his third team on a practice squad. Like the shot of him at the game, at the week one game sitting in the stands, like was hilarious. I mean, it was sad, but it was, it was like hilarious.

It was sad. It was hilarious in a sad way. And he's another one, he's another one who was so great in college, you know, 10th overall pick I believe and just could not has not proven he can pick it up fast enough to be a starter get back to the conversation just a second but even though sports took a break your business didn't you have to keep moving and that makes hiring more important than ever indeed is here to help indeed.com is the number one job site in the world because indeed gets you Thank you. no long-term contracts at all. Plus, Indeed provides you with powerful tools to make your search even easier, like sponsored jobs, which are shown to be three and a half times more likely to result in a hire. And with 73% of online job seekers visiting Indeed each month, Indeed is

going to get you the important hire that you need, just like they have for over 3 million businesses. Right now, Indeed is offering our listeners a free $75 credit to boost your job post, which means more quality candidates that you will see fast. Try Indeed with free $75 credit at Indeed.com slash BlueWire. This is their best offer anytime, available anywhere. Go right now to Indeed.com slash BlueWire. Terms and conditions apply. Offer valid through September 30th. When it comes to would you trade Kirk for guys like this,

I mean Rosen, of course, aside, but guys who have not proven they can do it, even with some sample size, it would be on the very risky side to do so because you could do a heck of a lot worse than Kirk Cousins. The only thing I think that Vikings fans might say at this point is that you wouldn't trade for those guys in 2018, but you might do it in 2020, considering where they are. Because if it blows up on you, say you traded Kirk straight up, just in imagination land,

you traded him straight up just in imagination land you traded him straight up for Sam Darnold and then Darnold next year is absolutely awful and you're like okay this guy actually can't play quarterback whoops we made a big mistake you'd still be able to draft the next guy because you're not locked in and that is what is so interesting about the middle tier versus the younger tier that even if Daniel Jones is awful, strap the next guy. Josh Rosen is perfect example. You draft a quarterback and the Cardinals just went, not good. Let's just draft the next guy. And that's where I think there's probably some jealousy of Vikings fans when

we're talking about these young quarterbacks and how Herbert looked, where they'd say, you know what? Yeah, that guy actually might be bad because who knows, right? But at least it would be interesting to find out and at least you have cap flexibility and flexibility to move on whenever you want yeah that's a good point and i think when the cardinals did that people were really surprised and kind of thought it was a stupid decision but as we've seen it totally worked it's definitely working out right now with kyler the kyler and cliff

combination is really working um and you know i don't think josh rosen is totally done i think there's still potential for him it's totally his career has been so completely unfair he's had like a new offensive coordinator i think every season since he was a freshman in college so this this guy has had to pick up a new offense every single year. So I think it's a little unfair the way that his career has panned out. But I do think, you know, the Cardinals showed that that is totally an option and it can be really valuable and worth it. And this past draft season when Washington was rumored to be interested in Tua,

it was going to be the same situation. And I kind of – I didn't think they would do it, but I wouldn't have been surprised if they did do it because Arizona sort of proved to people and kind of set this precedent that that can work. Right. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, teams should – I mean, even Carolina did this once upon a time

with Cam where they picked Jimmy Clawson. He was awful. And then they said, well, let's just pick Cam then. And a lot of times if your guy's awful – I mean, think about the New York Giants. If they don't believe in Daniel Jones after this year, they might be drafting number two overall or number one overall. And so you just pick Trevor or you pick Justin Fields and say, hey, Daniel, it was great.

Go be a backup for somebody else. Or they fall into the, you know, he falls into the Tannehill category and might go be good for another team. So I love that we've gotten much more quarterback movement in recent years where we do have a Tom Brady moving and these types of things are shifting and always changing and happening. So I guess that's a good way to describe football in general. It's been more fun when they're on the move. Right. I mean, and for the Madden game, they don't change anything in the Madden game,

so they just need the new rosters. So that's just a little jab there from somebody who used to like Madden. Thanks for not changing anything. Well, let me just ask you one more question because it's been a super fun quarterback conversation. Tell me the early season result that's not going to stick. So the one that either someone is bad, someone is good, someone is mediocre, that will be completely different and we'll be going,

huh, that changed a lot six weeks from now? I would pick two situations that I'm just not sure about either of them. First would be Baker, and I think, well, it's been inconsistent. You know, they were awful week one. They were a lot better week two. But they were a lot better against the Bengals, which is probably one of the worst teams in the league. So I just am completely unsure about Baker and, like, where this team is headed.

I think it could really go either direction. So that one is one I'm going to keep an eye on because I'm just not, you know, I kind of doubt where they're going. Like I don't feel confident until I see him, like, play the Steelers. Plus it's Cleveland and, you know, they'll always be Cleveland. So that one's interesting. Gardner Minshew, also shocking, has done really well the first two games, like super efficient games.

I think, you know, week one, what did he have, one incompletion? Yeah. Yesterday also really good. So not that I doubt him, but I just don't know how sustainable that is for him to continue playing that efficiently. So that's another one. And then the third one would be Mitch Trubisky. And I would say he's played average the first two weeks.

It's been inconsistent. First half yesterday, he was good. Second half, they didn't score any points. And the Giants could have beat them but didn't. Like had every opportunity to beat them. Because they're the Giants, yep. Right. So, you know, they're 2-0, but I don't think,

like I don't see him finishing this season as the Bears starter. I kind of see Nick Foles coming in maybe like week eight or something. Yeah. Because they have kind of a soft start to their schedule. So I think when the games start getting harder and they start playing better defenses, I think things are going to change. And also, I mean, DeAndre Swift, just catch it.

And then all of a sudden Mitch Trubisky's not 2-0. So, yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I could see a three-game losing streak that results in Nick Foles coming off the bench. And then you never know. Then he could have the four greatest games that the NFL has ever seen, or he could be horrible. So that will be entertaining for you as a Bears fan.

Kalen, this is super fun, and I'm glad we could get together again. Follow her on Twitter, at Kalen Kaler. That is K-A-L-Y-N, just like you spell Jalen Holmes, who's actually playing now. So good for you, Kaylin. Woo! Proud of him. Go, Jalen Holmes.

All right, so, yeah, make sure you follow her and, of course, read your stuff at Bleacher Report these days. And really appreciate the time. Thanks for coming on. Thanks so much. It was fun. The wait is finally over. Football is back.

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