Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - BONUS Episode: ESPN's Kalyn Kahler and Ross Tucker talk GM search, drafting DTs

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

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All right, we welcome back into the show from ESPN, Kailen Kailer, fresh off of Prospect X reporting, which your prospect X story once produced Levi Drake Rodriguez to the Minnesota Vikings. This year also drafted again. So I encourage people to Google that, find that story. It's just phenomenal outstanding reporting, as always, Kailen Kailer. What is going on? How are you? Hey, I'm doing well. I'm glad he was drafted.

I get really freaked out about that every year. But it does make watching day three like so much more fun because I'm like sweating it out as if, you know, like as journalists, like we're not supposed to root for teams or, you know, really have any sort of interest in, you know, anything we cover. But I feel like when you do cover individuals, like you use and especially like somebody who's at the bottom of the draft who's like just, you know, just dying to be drafted. like it does obviously you start you start rooting for them and like I've done this story now for so many years that like scouts actually tip me on the pick so because they'll they'll kind of know who it is that I picked even though I never admit to them like what player it is like and really for no other reason then it's just like a fun game at this point you know so like with my prospect ex he's like a bottom of the draft sleeper who I keep anonymous in the first one so like scouts figure it out pretty

quickly, especially if he's in their area, you know, who he is. And it's funny because like there'll be like a group of them, you know, the Vikings particularly love the story because they've had, they've, they've picked the guy a couple times. Or they picked Levi Drake and then they signed Christian Ellis, who actually is the most successful of all of them. Like he's, you know, started in a Super Bowl this past year for the Patriots as a linebacker. So he was not drafted, but he's had the most significant playing time of any of these guys. But anyways, I get tipped on the pick. So, like, I'm sitting there in the seventh round,

and I know that nobody's texted me. And I'm like, well, crap. Like, that means it's not in the next three picks, basically. Because, like, inside the NFL buildings, they are well ahead of the broadcast. They're, like, anywhere between, like, three to ten picks, especially in the seventh round, like six and seventh round. They start to get way behind on the broadcast. and like the teams can see who's actually being selected way earlier.

So like I'm like sitting there like, oh no, nobody's texted me. Nobody's texted me. Like I'm not even really watching the TV because I'm watching the order of the picks, but I'm like if I don't have a text from a scout that he didn't get picked yet because they know that I'm sitting here waiting. So anyways, it was really nice to get like three texts at once from three people in three different buildings and they're like Jacksonville and I'm like ah so anyways that was cool yeah I mean people should go read the story it's phenomenal and it was indeed Levi drake Rodriguez one time and

he is in line I think to play a lot for the Minnesota Vikings so not only do you find prospect X but sometimes prospect X turns out to be a guy who actually makes an impact on a franchise the reason that I wanted to bring you on Kaelin is because I feel like you have a great connection with the front office and scouting world from your many years of reporting on the NFL. And via Tom Bellasero, Adam Schafter, there were five candidates for the Minnesota Vikings general manager job who came out and then won the other day. So we have six now.

Every single one of them is an assistant GM. Every single one of them is a former scout who has worked their way up the front office ladder to pro personnel, player personnel, AGM, and now here they are. Just based on that information, like, what does that say to you about not only like what the Vikings are looking for for the next GM, but just about kind of how this structure works in the NFL and how people get to be general managers? Well, it's interesting that they're swinging back, you know, entirely the other direction after as everyone who listens to this podcast, I'm sure is well aware, like Quasi was of the other mold.

He was of the math, analytics, has worked a job outside of football mold, which seemed to be gaining some steam a little bit, and now it feels like it's not trendy anymore. And actually, I'll point out two examples of people of that mold who have left. the NFL altogether in recent years. There's actually three I can think of. And that means there's more that I just like don't personally know or have interacted with. Jake Rosenberg, who is an assistant GM for the Eagles, two years ago he quit, started his own, how do I describe this?

Like consulting for college football teams on how they should build out their front offices? Because he got frustrated with the NFL. hiring process because he was not of a football guy came up as a scout, you know, on the road, area scout traveling the country. Like that's not how he came up. He was more of the financial analytic strategy path. And he got frustrated with, you know, the lack of interest in him as a GM, the lack of opportunity to move forward, you know, and expand his responsibilities in Annabelle. And so he left all together and started his own company. Now, another one from the Eagles, just last week, Alec Hallaby, another assistant GM from the Eagles, Harvard grad, also really

smart, not your traditional football guy, did not play football in college. I don't think. I think I'm right about that. May need to fact check that. Um, anyways, he's from Madison, Wisconsin. I'm from Madison, Wisconsin. So, um, shout out Madison. Um, anyways, he just quit. And I don't know what he is doing next. I actually need to get him on the phone, like we're playing phone tag.

I really want to know what he's doing next because he also left because he, now, I don't know. I haven't talked to him about why he left, but his statement was like he's going to do something new. And it didn't say what knew he was going to do, but it wasn't one of those things where like, he was secretly fun. and they're like painting it like he's moving on. Like this was genuinely like this guy is like, you know what? I'm going to go do something else.

And he's another one of that same mold. So it's kind of interesting that like the pendulum is swinging back towards traditional football scout as general manager. And I've just kind of, I know I've heard a sentiment sort of expressed by people who are in the analytics, more of the analytics mindset. of feeling frustrated that like quick first of all that quacy was fired and then second of all that like quacy's tenure went so poorly in terms of his drafting because people who come from that background like obviously want other people in that background to be successful and to show that like this is a

functional way to become a general manager and you can be a good general manager from this type of role Now, there are still general managers, like, of that mold that are very much, like, how he comes to mind, James Gladstone, right, like, with the Jaguars, you know, although I will say I did hear a lot of grumbling act of the draft about how the Jaguars picks were coming out of left field and nobody knew what they were doing. Now, I have no idea, you know, I'm like, I know about Prospect X. I believe in him. I don't know anything else about the rest of their prospects and draft picks to be like, I agree with that take or I don't agree with that take.

But I do know that like that is a feeling among other front offices. It's like, what was Jacksonville doing in the draft? Like someone said to me like, they were picky players like, you know, like that we were like, whoa, that's way too early to be picking that player. Anyways. So it is interesting now to see like the Vikings are swinging back the other direction. I'm not surprised, though, because that's always what happens with head coaches. You guys saw that, right?

Like Zimmer to Kevin O'Connell, like totally different types of head coaches, right? Like, so, yeah, I do think that I still think there is a path for the analytic-minded general manager to, you know, get up there. And I think there's a lot of examples of people that are, like, going to be hired, like, particularly from the Rams. Like, they have a woman named Nicole Blake who works there, who, who. is not yet a GM candidate, but like I think she will be very soon. And like she's probably, you know, I don't know she'll be the first woman GM. Maybe there's somebody who will get there before her. But she's got a good chance to do that. And she is of the, you know, analytics strategy. She went to Stanford. She's been with the Rams for a while. And she has a lot of influence and

responsibility there. So like that's someone who I think going forward could be, you know, considered in that mold. But yeah, I'm not surprised that. the Vikings have reversed because it seems like that's kind of the trend right now. And I think they had to because I think if they went someone of the non-football scout numbers analytics mass strategy cap background, I don't think the fans, I don't think that would satisfy Vikings fans because, you know, unfortunately like Quasi's tenure just was not was not successful in terms of how did they draft and how did they build the team. Yeah, the interesting part about Quasi's tenure is that we couldn't really find evidence of

where the analytics happened. It seemed like it was a lot of stuff that coaches would do if they were in charge. And they managed their timeline really well to set up for having a good team around a rookie quarterback contract. But the quarterback did not come through on his part of the bargain. And so we end up with this situation. But a lot of the most analytical teams are run by former scouts who came up the traditional ladder and just happened to be, uh, interested in having as much information as possible. You know, when you look at the Los Angeles Rams, they're always at the forefront of this. I would throw the Baltimore Ravens out there as a team. Yeah. That feels like it's always one step ahead that was hiring analytics people before anybody else was. Um, and even, it's

too because someone told me even about Jerry Jones. You think of Jerry Jones as the most like 1980s type of, you know, NFL owner and whatever, but they've hired a bunch of really good analytics people because Jerry always wants the best thing. He wants the most forward thinking thing. He was one of the first to actually get into PFF, which I think would surprise people. But so it's not always just, hey, are you led by an analytics person? Therefore, you have to be the most analytical. I think that what we find is GMs who are able to use every tool at their disposal are probably the ones that end up having the most success. But it's interesting to me that the GM position comes from a scouting position, which are

two wildly different things. I mean, GMs don't sit in their office all day. I mean, I'm sure they watch a ton of tape, but they don't sit in their office all day watching tape. You have too much to do. I forget who it was a GM who said that not too long. ago. It's just like, I can't, I can't be watching tape like 24-7. I have to be having meetings and connecting with people and talking with agents and all sorts of different stuff. That's what I find

interesting. It's almost like if you came up in basketball as a rebounder and then when you advanced in basketball, they said, actually shoot threes. It's just like, so how do you judge who is going to be good at this when they get into a position that's so different? Yeah, that's really hard. And I think to like, yeah, I think the best GMs are taking into account all the analytics that they can, even if they're not, even if that wasn't their path to the job. I do think also, because I think, yeah, I think like every team now has somewhat of an analytics department. And I do think that like every team, it's not like, you know, maybe it was 10 years ago where you, you know, have an analytics department, but you're not really listening to them. Like, I think, I hope, across the NFL, and I think that that culture has changed where

the data that they're bringing is genuinely weaved into the process. Like with the, just because I most recently did, you know, I dove into the Jaguars process. Like, they have, they brought someone over from the Rams named Jake Temi, who I think is their VP of analytics. That might not be his exact title, but it's something like that. And they brought him over and he, you know, Jordan Rodriguez covered this well for the athletic, but like he, you know, streamlined and designed his entire like scouting database where they can have everything in one place and can access the film, access their reports. They're tracking within their like how and when and why their opinions of prospects change. You know, it's really granular.

stuff like that. It's all in this system. So they, when James Gladstone was hired in Jacksonville, that was probably his first move. It's like, I got to have this guy to come over here and redesign, you know, bring, make, basically make this platform over here for the Jaguars because the Jaguars definitely did not have, I don't know what they were working with. I'm sure they had all these features in different places, but not under one system that made it easy and made it what Gladstone was used to working with in LA. So I do think that, like, people who can, who have that skill of, like, taking all this information, centralizing it, making it make sense to others,

are really valuable. And, like, Jake is a great sign of that. Like, he was literally, like, plucked from L.A. Right away when James Gladstone got that job, it was like, I got to have this guy. So I think the people who can do that are super, super valuable. And also I would say too, like another kind of trend happening is like, but also it's very confusing to like understand or even like track because I feel like we've lost a couple teams that were structured in this way. I've like I've lost track entirely of what the Tennessee Titans are doing. Like I don't know what is going on over there.

But there had been this trend of three people in charge, right? the Falcons just did this. And there's all this controversy over. Why did they not, why did the Bears not get compensatory draft picks when the Falcons hired Ian Cunningham, who is a minority as the general manager? Well, it's because the league only recognizes one primary football executive.

And that person is, in the eyes of the league office, there's one decision maker. I think that's probably, tired and they might need to like reframe that because I don't I think it's way to cut and dry black and white to be like yeah we have one football maker like who has control of the 53 it's it's an easy way to view it because I think if you viewed the Vikings in that lens like it's Kevin O'Connell right like you know I don't know I don't know I haven't really dug into the Vikings so deeply to say for certain that like Kevin O'Connell is the end-all be-all.

But I will say from the outside, just looking at what they do and how they present themselves, it feels like whoever's hired as GM there is not really the person who's in charge of the 53. Now, that's my personal opinion at not reporting that. That's just when I look at what the Vikings do, when I watch press conferences, when, you know, when I, just the vibe that comes out of there, which I'm sure you would agree, is like Kevin O'Connell's is in charge, right? And like, so that's why I think it's also really hard to, like, even evaluate Casey's tenure because I'm not even really sure, like, what, like, what was Quacy's decision? And I think the best teams are collaborative, too. So it's like,

you can't even really separate and say this was all Quacey's fault because I think in an ideal structure, the head coach and the GM are working together and are theoretically agreeing on decisions that they make. And that's not always going to happen, obviously. Like, you're going to probably have decisions that you're like, I don't really want to do that. But okay. But, you know, theoretically, your top two decision makers should be like really in lockstep. So with Atlanta, they brought in Matt Ryan as president of football operations. I think it's his title. But there's sort of this third title that some teams are doing now where it's like a president of football ops and sometimes they are very involved in the football operation and that's when you

really have sort of like a triumvirate of leadership of like coach GM president um and then other times like you know kind of like in Detroit like they've got a you know a COO but he's not super involved in terms of like every scouting decision and like roster decision. So it just kind of depends on how the team structures that. But I do think that like, you know, it's hard to determine what teams are doing in this regard. And like everybody like lost their minds over Ian Cunningham not, even Cunningham being the general manager, but not being the primary football executive. And I understand.

I understood that like outreach. rage from bears hands, but I was also like, look, like, as the stuff is written right now, and as the league identifies this, they're only going to recognize one person. So if the team is saying that it's Matt Ryan and they're identifying Matt Ryan, it doesn't really matter that Matt Ryan said Ian Cunningham is making all the decisions because that tells us Matt Ryan has the power to override a decision if he wanted to. So yeah, the, The structures of leadership are really interesting. And I actually kind of thought, I don't know.

I mean, I sort of thought the Vikings would just maybe not even hire GM. Like, and maybe just, you know, keep Rob Brzynski. And maybe change his title, right? Like maybe say, okay, now you're whatever. But like, it's going to be all flowing through Kevin O'Connell, similar to like a Bill Belichick model. Like I kind of thought that would actually probably make the most sense for them.

Now, I don't know, are any of these candidates, I haven't been following it that closely. Does he, does Kevin have a connection to any of them? Like, have he, has he worked closely with any of these guys? He does. And I would also add that Brian Flores is the most powerful defensive coordinator that there is in the NFL. When it comes to roster decisions,

and I think we saw some of that in the draft, the guy that has the connection, well, there's several, actually, John McKay from the Rams, their assistant general manager. Also, Dave Ziegler was with the Patriots. And so O'Connell, I don't think, was a patriot, but he's like an honorary member of the Patriot way.

And then, of course, Brian Flores would have that connection too. I don't know if any of the other ones have a direct connection to him, but at least those two, you could sort of tie direct and indirect to Kevin O'Connell. I completely agree with you that if you're going to have a coach-driven decision-making, team with the roster. That's okay, but everybody has to be on board with that. Yeah, that's right. And what it seemed to happen over a couple years was it became that when it wasn't supposed to be that. And that's where some of the friction came from. So the new general manager has to come in and adapt himself to this is how it's actually going to work.

And I wonder if that impacts how people view taking the job. And I am still curious about, you know, Ryan Poles and why he took Chicago and didn't decide to come to the Minnesota Vikings. The other thing is, and I'm curious on your opinion on this, is that likely the structure suggests that they will not make a front office overhaul. Sometimes you see a GM come in. Right. Fire a bunch of people. Fire a bunch of scouts. Fire a bunch of execs.

And then they, uh, you know, kind of build their own squad. But it doesn't seem like the Wilfs want this. So is this, is this good? Like, is this bad? I mean, how do you view that as far as a decision to change a general manager position, which is, you know, a huge move that you're making, but not really foundationally changing how things are done? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times with a new GM, they might switch out like the people right underneath them, like assistant GM or director of player personnel, a few changes at the director level. but a lot of times scouting changes. A lot of times they, like area scouts will sort of remain the same.

Not always, but I feel like more often than not you're keeping area scouts, especially because, you know, with NFL hiring rules, like it's actually really hard for, if you're an area scout or like a scout, it's hard to even switch teams a lot of the times because unless you're taking like a one-year contract, you like can't really get out because like by the time, like if you had a two-year contract, you know, a lot of the theory goes like, well,

you never want to have like one year left on your contract. Like you just want to keep signing deals to like put it off so you have job security. But like unless you decline an extension, like you sometimes you just literally have to decline an extension or your team has control over you and, you know, can block you if you're not. being promoted to like a much higher level. It's really hard to make like a lateral move and like follow someone.

If like your boss was hired at another team, like it's really difficult for that person to like bring their scouts with them because the scouts all have different lengths of contracts. And if they're not all being promoted, which they're not going to be like that's not possible to bring everybody and be like, hey, now you're not just near a scout. Now you're all directors. Like you can't do that. So like it can be really different. to actually change out a whole scouting staff.

And I do think the Vikings, like, from what I know, the Viking scouting operation, like, it's good. Like, they have a really strong analytics team that's very involved in the scouting process. They, their area scouts work really hard. They find underrepresented players all the time. Like, they, I think they have, like, a really solid. solid, you know, evaluation process.

And I think they're like good at that. And so I don't know that they necessarily need to like wipe it all clean, but I do think like, I think they need to be clear. And hopefully they are in this interview process of like how decision making is going to work and how involved is the coaching staff and when and how are they going to work together with the coaching staff. Because I think they should be. I think that's a good thing.

I just think it has to be clear about it. And yeah, I would be really curious. I haven't talked to any of the, I haven't done any reporting on this. So I haven't talked to any of the coaching agents or any of the candidates. But it would be interesting to know, yeah, how is it viewed? How is this role viewed? Is it an attractive job? I think it's an attractive job in terms of like a place to work.

Like it's a great place. Like, you know, there's a lot of potential on the team. The owners are well respected. did. I think they're viewed pretty highly. Facilities are great. Like, stadium's amazing. I think it's great in terms of the amenities they offer and, like, you know, willingness to spend money, essentially, like, ranks highly for that.

But it would be interesting to see how it's viewed by GMs who, like, would want to be in control and, like, how, what, what they think about that. And that's why I sort of, I don't know, I might be totally off base here, but I'm, I just kind I think it's going to be Rob Brzynski because, I mean, is he officially, did they identify him officially as a candidate? Not officially, but Tom Pelliserra reported that he's in. So I tend to agree with you. And I think that if you're going to have a coach driven situation, it's not a bad idea to

have somebody from a background of the asset management, which I think in this free agency and draft has worked out extremely well. the trade for Jonathan Grenard, I think you can really see where on paper that makes a lot of sense with them getting multiple draft picks and lots of cap space. And then they hold out in free agency and stay patient rather than panicking and end up with getting Joanne Jennings for $8 million. That's got to be one of the best deals in all of free agency considering, you know, his background. So we've kind of seen and the coaches seem very happy also with the way that it went, despite the fact that they lost one of their. you know, top captain players and, you know, didn't spend a whole lot of money at the start, but now seem to be picking up, you know, better deals later on.

And the way they handled the draft, if that's how it's going to be where the coaches drive the bus in the draft, well, that means they're going to get the players that they are most invested in developing. And I feel like that's a disconnect that happens a lot with front offices and analytical front offices is this guy was the best deal economically in the draft. Well, the coaches don't care about the best economical deal. They are like, I want Jacoby Thomas. I don't really care.

And now if you're risking against the consensus board, we know that that doesn't always work. But especially if it's like a third round draft pick, they really think this guy will fit. There's a deep investment to try to make it work to develop that player to stay patient. And that's something the Vikings just didn't really do with those draft picks. They didn't just fail because they couldn't play.

That was the case with some. But then we see a bunch of their picks from 2022 on other teams, sometimes playing and you're like, okay, well, clearly there wasn't an investment there in the players that Cuey decided to bring in. And that's where I feel like you have to be really in lockstep. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, I mean, yeah, I'm sure I'll be wrong. But I just think it makes the most sense to just promote Rob to that role. I mean, I know you had to do it. They would have to interview everybody anyways. Like you can't just promote someone to GM without conducting external and reviews for obviously because of the Rooney rule. So you do have to go through an entire

process and they should go through an entire process. I think it's healthy to like see, okay, is anybody else out there, you know, have some interesting ideas that we want to, that we want to hire them or just we want to steal some ideas like in the process of interviewing. Like that's an underrated aspect of interviewing. You get to, you know, get ideas from the candidates that you're interviewing. So I think it's, I mean, they had to have a problem. process. I think he's good they have a process, but I do think like, you know, no one says anything bad about Rob either. Like, I mean, I've, I again, haven't reported deeply on this, but he seems to be very well thought of, has done his job at a high level there for a long time, knows the organization

in and out. To me, it is a scenario where it does kind of make sense to just go with an inside hire who, if he wants the job, right? Like, if he, if he, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, this is something he wants to do. I think that makes sense for it to be him. Yeah. Well, I think the offseason ran so functionally that if this was a tryout, it went really well.

Yeah, they were able to give themselves max flexibility for the future, but also not really sacrifice in the actual roster. And the coaches have come away very pleased with the draft. And everybody's got, you know, banjos and acoustic guitars around a little fire. And they're making marshmallows.

That's the way it's come across. in this front office. But I agree with you when you have some franchises who like Seattle, like the Rams, like the Ravens, uh, and, um,

you know, even I think the chargers are building a really good front office. Like, I mean, you have to talk to those people because those are the top franchises in not just success, but also in the, the way that they,

their process and the way that they do things. And you can tangibly point to decisions and see this is why the Rams are the best. This is why Seattle won the Super Bowl. Um, Just real quick, before I let you go, the NFC North is interesting in the old betting markets, Kaelin, because no one really knows. When you look at like over on Fandul, the lions are the favorite at plus 145, but the Packers are right there behind them at plus 230 and the bears are plus 320.

I've had this struggle. I'm trying to do NFC power rankings this year because I've always been anti-power rank. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to try it. I've mocked the power rankers. I've made fun of them. Let me see if I can do it, right? Here's the struggle I keep getting to is the Rams and the Seahawks,

one, two, whichever order you want is fine. I don't know what to do after that with the NFC. Who is number three? Who is number three in the NFC past the Rams and the Seahawks, the obvious two that should be power rank number one and two? Interesting. I mean, I think the bears are going to be pretty good. They haven't improved as much as I thought they would in the offseason.

I thought that they would do like a big. Yeah, but I think it's more like, I don't know that they needed to do that. I don't know. I don't know they needed to do that much. I mean, losing Drew Dalman is bad. Like, that was, that was tough. That was tough. but I think like just I don't know

like I think trading DJ more was good that was a good decision I don't know I feel like it's just like that team I think the Bears just with a second year are gonna be because they had a lot of like early in the season last year they were having a lot of problems on offense

and I just think and on defense I mean they still sort of have a need for you know edge But like on offense, I think they were having a lot of issues. It really took them the entire season to like come into their own. And then you saw late in the season into the playoffs like, oh, this is working now. So I think just like second year in his system, Caleb has a much better understanding of it. Like they're not going to have operational issues for, you know, through like 10 games, right?

Like they're going to, it's going to be a much smoother process. So I'm expecting them to take a jump. Um, who else? I mean, eagles, I will never count the eagles out. You know, I just think they had a weird, every other year they just have a weird year. Um, so I think, I think eagles will probably be good. Also, Panthers are the sexy pick. Um, I do think the Panthers are going to, I don't know if they should be like top four in the NFC, but I think they could be a lot better than last year. they were pretty good last year. And I like, they, I thought they had a pretty good draft. So that's an interesting team. I feel like I'm forgetting like an obvious one.

Well, I went with San Francisco as sort of a clear benefit of the doubt. Yeah. You just, yeah. They're like Philadelphia. Yeah. They're like a Philly to me. Washington would be the other one for me. Washington made a ton of editions in the off season.

Yes. And they can't, I mean, they just can't have another year like that year where everyone gets hurt. Like, it's just not. Although, I don't know, San Francisco would argue otherwise because they're always hurt. But, yeah, I think that's a good one too. Commanders for sure, because I think, you know, Jaden is so good. And when he's healthy, that's going to be so helpful. And they were just old last year.

They were just a little old. And I think they've flipped it a little bit. So, yeah, that makes sense. I'm not sure they have the best coaching on either side of the ball either. So that I think helps. Yeah. Well, Caitlin, prospect X, make sure people go read it. It's just great reporting all the way through.

And I'm so happy there. And hopefully you're also reporting that we have a referee contract soon. I think I've literally like sending some checks. Yeah. I mean, based off everything I know, I don't know for sure that it passed yet. But they voted last, voting began last night on the CBA. proposal. So I don't, I have not heard yet if it has passed or not, but based off of everyone I've spoken to, like the expectation was that it was going to pass. So I'm, I'm pretty sure there will not be

the lockout and replacement officials. Thank goodness. Okay. Very good. Very good. Well, thanks again for your time. We'll definitely see each other soon when you pop into Minnesota for whatever reason. And we'll definitely have you back on the show soon. So thanks for doing this. Cool. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Hey, guys. I just wanted to bring you a little bonus content here. I had a phone call with former NFL player Ross Tucker to talk about defensive tackles. And it was just a cell phone call. So it's not the typical studio quality, but a really good conversation nonetheless. So here is myself and former NFL player and podcaster Ross Tucker. Enjoy.

All right. We welcome into the show, former NFL player. host of one of the great podcasts in the universe, the Ross Tucker show, and also an entrepreneur, which we'll get to in a second. Offensive lineman forever, though. Ross, welcome to the show, man. I got really one subject that I want to ask you about, and I think you know something about it. It's defensive tackles.

The Vikings decided to draft two defensive tackles, and I want to start from a offensive lineman, a guards perspective. How hard is it to block a guy? who's 6 foot 6 and 327 pounds and runs a 5-0 flat? Oh man, that is a good question. You know, it's so funny, Matthew, like that reminds me. My second start ever in the NFL was in 2002 for the Dallas Cowboys against the Jacksonville Jaguars.

And I broke the huddle. and the two detackles for the Jaguars were John Henderson and Marcus Stroud. Now, you got to look it up, Matthew, but I want to say Henderson was like 6-8, 325, and Stroud was 6.6.5, 3.30. They both had crazy long arms. They both had like six-packs. And I remember thinking when I came out of the huddle, like, What am I even doing here?

Like, we are, we are not the same species. Like, they look like, I don't know, what are those huge birds, like condors? Like, they look like condors. I mean, I thought, oh, man, that's how I'm going to answer the question. It definitely can be intimidating. However, there's more to it than just physical ability. Right. Those guys were so over-eager and they were so one-trick ponies in terms of just coming up the field as hard as they can that I was able to sort of utilize that against them.

I was able to use my brains and either just cut them right at the way the line of scrimmage or throw them up field if it was, you know, a screen or an outside run. So the answer is, you know, Caleb Banks in particular, he's a planet guy. There's only a few guys like him on the planet. Right. There just aren't many. I mean, Bill Parsallel would call him a planet guy. He's a planet guy. And certainly if you watch his 24 tape and Greg Cosell talked about this quite a bit on the

Ross Tucker football podcast, he'd look like a top 10 pick. And then last year he was injured. whatever. So I'm not surprised that the Vikings are kind of swinging for the fences, swinging for the upside here. And we'll have to say, you know, guys like him, it's usually no middle ground. It's usually they're totally committed. They stay healthy. They want to be the best. And they take their physical ability and become perennial pro bowlers. Other times, for sometimes those guys, it's like, hey, getting drafted in the first round was the goal, and I got there, and maybe they're not as hungry to play as hard

or to put the time in. So I am very curious to see which camp Caleb Banks falls into, because as you look at a Vikings team that has the ability to win that division, and we talked about that on the even-money betting podcast. In fact, my co-host is taking the Vikings to win the division. it really feels like the detackle position and maybe Caleb Banks in particular his ability to make plays and wreak havoc in the backfield. It really might be the key to the Viking season.

Yeah, I think that interior defensive line was just such a weakness in the run game last year and they didn't get the pass rush production that they expected out of Jonathan Allen and Javon Hargrave. So now they've gone Planet Guy or Freaklist or whatever you, want to call it with Caleb Banks. What do you think is the difference between those two guys that you describe, you know, the guy that does and doesn't make it because my experience with defensive tackles, and, you know, I know you're an O lineman, so I don't want to give them too much credit, but usually the best ones are really smart. Like, they identify things very quickly. They prepare extremely well, and they get off the ball fast because they've seen it all before in their tape

study and things like that. But what do you think that Caleb has to do to go from a ball of clay to being, you know, a monster, Dexter Lawrence type or whatever type of player he's going to become? You said it exactly right, Matthew. It's all above the neck. It's all in their head and it's two levels. Football intelligence and really want to in terms of the preparation. preparation. So and desire and motivation because D-Line is the most tiring position in the sport.

And effort makes a big difference at D-Line, a big difference. And it's not easy. I mean, he's going to get double-teamed on pretty much every run. Pass-rushing is crazy, tiring. So it's not easy. It's not going to be easy for Caleb. thanks the effort and the motivation have to be there and then what's the preparation like during the week and how quickly can he figure out what offenses are trying to do to him because you said it perfectly if you can identify based on the personnel and the formation and the splits of the offensive lineman and their line call. If you have a pretty good idea what play is coming or what two plays might be coming and then you're keying the center's left leg because that'll tell you if it's this player that play, man, you have a chance. If you're really just a physical phenom and

you don't take the time to try to understand the game better and that doesn't come naturally for you, you're going to struggle really no matter how physically gifted you are. Right, absolutely. I want to ask you about the other defensive tackle, the Vikings drafted, which is Dominique Orange, very different size, similar weight, but not in height for sure. The nose tackle who looks like a fire hydrant is not always in style in the NFL, but it should be you mentioned throwback names, so I got to throw out like, you know, Gilbert Brown or Ted Washington or Keith Trailer, Dominique Orange kind of falls under that category of what that's

supposed to be. Where do you think that in today's NFL, the nose tackle exists, the Casey Hampton of sorts? Like, is that making a comeback because teams are running more these days, it feels like? 100%. And it's not necessarily because teams are running more. It's because everybody wants to be able to keep two deep safeties, you know, Vic Fangio, the shell defense, because when you have two deep safeties, then, you know, neither receiver on either side really has a one-on-one. You know, there's safety help over top of both those guys. But if you do that, you're going to be a gap short in the running game. Well, so the value of these run-stuffing nose tackles is if can handle two gaps because you got to make up for that gap somewhere you know do the math on you know

six guys in the front or even a front seven if the offense has you know five linemen the tight end like think about all the gaps are there you're going to be one short so you need that guy that can effectively take care of two gaps somewhere along the front and I think the hope for the Vikings is that big citrus is that guy. Right. And, you know, I mean, it's going to be hard, I think, for any rookie to just jump into the fray and start dominating NFL offensive lineman. But even with just his footwork and his size and his power, having a guy that could push back the pocket a bit, handle a couple of blockers. And in Flores' system, he likes his defensive tackles to just move bodies for his smaller guys to blitz and rush the passer or run blitz.

and I think that he's kind of a perfect candidate. And I think that's one of the other reasons is that there's smaller linebackers, smaller safeties. So if you can have a bigger guy up front and just create lanes for some of those guys, I think it can be pretty problematic. Now let me just throw one more at you, Ross, just about, you know, Kyler Murray.

You mentioned that there are people who are kind of betting big on the Vikings because they have Kyler Murray now, but there's some power rankings that I've read recently who have them 24th, 28th, Like, where are you standing right now? Like, what's the intrigue level for you about the Vikings? Well, I guess what I would say is they won nine games last year.

And they had generally very poor quarterback play, like very poor. Okay, whether it was Wentz or JJ or Brosmer, I think the belief is that those guys are, you know, I'll just tell you, Matthew, on my NFL betting podcast, it's called the Even Money Betting Podcast. You know, they actually attach numbers to quarterbacks. And so let's just say that they said J.J. McCarthy was three and a half points worse than an average starting quarterback in the NFL. Well, the belief is, even without any improvement under Kevin O'Connell,

Kylear Murray is probably about average. You know, maybe he's negative half a point. So you're talking about, at least in terms of the way they go about it, three points per game. I also think there's a possibility that JJ improves. And I think I wouldn't imagine under Kevin O'Connell that Kyler Murray is going to be worse. Right. Or get worse.

So I think the belief is that bears were very fortunate in a lot of close games. You know, the Packers, I'm sure there are some people out there that don't think they're anything to improve. The Lions might be about what they were. I think there's some genuine belief out there that the Vikings under Kyla Murray have a great chance to win double-digit games, 10, 11, maybe it's even 12, just by having average or competent quarterback play.

Right. And the guy who wears number 8. I think would be happy to see an accurate quarterback like Kyler Murray. Ross, you are an entrepreneur, the Ross Tucker Football Show. You mentioned your betting podcast, but also Myfrontpagestory.com, a perfect mother's day gift, may I say? Why don't you tell me about that? Well, you'll appreciate this with your background as a writer.

You know, the guy that starts a company's a buddy of mine, and he's a former writer. It really is amazing. You can talk to a writer on the phone for 10 minutes if you want while you're driving home from work or whatever. Or you can fill out a quick email. They write the most unbelievable story about your mom or your wife, whoever. It looks like it's on the cover of the newspaper, framed, beautiful. And honestly, like when you hand it to them, I've seen so many guys do this now. When they start opening it, they don't really understand what it is.

It's like, okay, it's a framed picture, but what is this? To be able to say to them, I won't do something special for you this year. So I had a story written about you. That just sounds amazing. Like what? You had an author? Something like Matthew Collier, write a story about how amazing I am. And then just make sure, you know, when they read the quotes, it's like make sure you say,

you know, I wouldn't be the person I am today if it weren't for her. They cry every time. It's hilarious. I always like to say, she will cry, you will win. my front page story.com, my front page story.com. Thank you so much, Ross, for all your time. Really appreciate it, man. Good to catch up with you.

Of course. My pleasure, Matthew. Thank you so much for having me. Keep up the great work. All right. Take care, Ross. All right. See you, Matthew.

Thanks, man.