Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - BREAKING: Vikings trade Mekhi Blackmon (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Matthew Coller reacts to the Mekhi Blackmon and what it signals for the Vikings roster build. He also breaks down the latest in Vikings receiver search 2025 and looks at a few notable players who they released early. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel.

Yeah, I mean, the Kurt Russell says they can't keep all of them, Coker, Thielen, Renfro. Yeah, I mean, they can, but, you know, Thelan being kind of expensive to be behind some of their other guys, who they like a lot, would not make a lot of sense for them. Todd, thank you for the super chat. Are you going to have Courtney Cronin on the podcast in the near future? Yes, definitely, definitely.

I will have Courtney on the week that they are going to play the Chicago Bears. That is a certainty for that week that Courtney will be on the show. Yep. So they're in a spot here with a lot of movement still to go. And this has been something that I don't think the Vikings from 2015 to 2018 to 2018. 19 did a whole lot, but they've certainly done a ton in recent years. Thanks TLS for the super chat. Appreciate that.

Which is these moves that are either in the season or that are like, you know, two weeks before the season. They did it with the Chris Hernd and trade. That was out of sheer desperation. But this leadership has done it a lot. I mean, whether it was going out and getting Hawkinson, the Cam Acres thing, twice, with Cam Acres, the Cam Robinson and acquiring Carson Wentz. They seem to not really believe in just sticking with what you got and going there.

They're always looking for improvement, which says to me that there will still be moves. We're still on receiver watch. Receiver watch 2025. Receiver watch 2025. Like we're still on that. And we can only just kind of wait and see what they're going to do. because I think Thielen is their first option and I think he is someone, as Signor Lobo says, you know, need some depth to get us through Addison, but those games are really important.

It's like, yeah, you just got to kind of get through it a week four, but you need to win two out of those three, if not all three games when you consider how hard the rest of the schedule is. So it is a matter of, okay, well, survive those first couple games. but we also just don't know about Jalen Naylor yet. If Jalen Naylor is not able to play week one, and you're talking about Justin Jefferson and shrugs for the rest of the group and then, you know, two good tight ends.

I mean, what are what are you talking about there, right? That's not a whole lot to run out against some very good offenses. You know, okay, Chicago, you think you can beat Chicago. That's fine. I think that Chicago can still give them problems. Caleb Williams did last year in the game at Soldier Field and Ben Johnson has over several years

but okay you can beat Chicago with only one wide receiver but Atlanta and Cincinnati I mean those teams can put up points those teams have big offenses and a lot of times the offenses do be great defenses and we've seen that from the Lions

in the last few years so they do need to go out and pick up somebody else as a wide receiver to just give them something. Joe Horn Jr. I think they like him too, don't they? In Carolina, from what I was reading,

is the faithful Courtney was talking about your book on a bear show today. Oh, that's great. That's great. Courtney is a great friend. So she will definitely be on the show very soon. Andrew wants to sign Mike Hilton or Rasul Douglas. Those guys make the most sense.

Those guys definitely make the most sense. And who would I rather have Thielen or rent for a? Well, I mean, we're two weeks away. from the season. So Thielen, you need Thielen to come in, learn it as fast as possible, and just go from there. Robert says,

I think if Adam isn't here now, he's going to not going to be here. The Panthers are looking to see if the Vikings blink, and I still feel like they might trade for a splash wide receiver. Certainly possible, but I think tomorrow is really the day. You can't go much past tomorrow.

Like, that's cut down day, and then they get back to practicing and off we go into the season. Like if you're going to trade for Adam Thielen, you better get him here by Wednesday and get him going in the offense. Like there is a clock that is ticking and every minute that he's not a Minnesota Viking,

that clock keeps ticking. So I do think that they need to make that happen very soon if it's going to happen. And you are right that Carolina can just sit there in the position they're in. They can just sit there and say, here's what you got to give us for Adam Theelan, we're not going to take anything less.

And the Vikings can come back and go, what about this, what about that? And they go, we'll just keep them. But now the Vikings have so much draft capital, having moved Mackay Blackman, that they should be able to meet the price. I would assume that at this point, unless Carolina, it just wants the world

for a 35-year-old wide receiver. I kind of doubt that. then they should be able to meet the price. But I also, I just keep waiting for like the next notification or something. Like, are we going to, are we going to get this taken care of soon? Because if not, you know, they need another option. Dusty says Josina Anderson said the talks were fading between, I guess you mean Carolina and the Vikings over Adam Thielen. I, you know, today, I, I didn't hear anything myself today.

And the last that I was told on the Carolina and Thielen situation is basically what I've been saying, which is just they don't have to do it. The Vikings have to meet their price. It's something that always was possible and that the Vikings want. And that's as far as you can really go. And Carolina, I definitely read the Adam Schaefter reporting on Carolina as being, reluctant to move him meant you better up the price. And that's what it sounded like the entire time.

Steven says doesn't the new wide receiver and cornerback need to find a place to live in Minnesota. No, they could stay at the, they could stay at the Omni, the hotel, right across the street until they get started. It's more of they need to learn the team, the roster, the teammates they have, the offense. It's not as impossible as some,

people make it sound because, of course, you know, when it comes to like T.J. Hawkinson, he showed up and played the rest of the season. Even Josh Dobbs learned the offense. It's not totally impossible to do. It's just that we are getting so close now to the start of the season. That player has to make an impact right away. Paul says, please stop with all this, this capital going towards stealing. It's just not worth it. Well, what are you talking about for worth it? because if you were talking about a third round draft pick swapped with a fourth,

so maybe you're moving down 20 spots or something like that in next year's draft, and then giving up sixth rounders, which occasionally turn into good players, but for the most part, usually not. And they have, I think I count, would I count 11 or 12 draft picks for next year with all the comp picks that they are going to get from Sam Darnold, Daniel Jones, the trade with Ed Ingram. you're really not losing very much. So you're talking about being concerned about draft capital that adds up to what,

if they are to make the move. If Carolina wants it to be their third round draft picker, they're not doing it. Well, then you're not doing it. Then you're just going to have to go and find some other option. You can only do it within reason. I think that any Adam Thielen discussion always includes within reason. But they have to look at their.

other options as well. They now have to look at Jacoby Myers. They now have to look at any other wide receiver that might be out there in the market. They just can't go into week one with Lucky Jackson and Thayer Thomas and Ty Felton is the guys that they're relying on if Jalen Naylor is injured. And it's not a three week thing. It would not be a three week thing. It would be the entire season because, well, again, we just don't know about Naylor. And if he has to have surgery on his hand and is out multiple weeks or his wrist, then what are you, what are you doing exactly? And with Thielen, he can be a contributor in the slot. He can play still outside, I'm sure, but, you know, the slot he's always been very good at since he left Minnesota. He's got great

hands. He's going to catch the ball when it comes to him. He's going to know the offense. He's going to be in the right spots. I mean, he's a good player. So you're going to use him. It's not like you're just, you know, getting, because I think we did this as the fan dual question of the day the other day, which was, you know, if they get feel and how many catches. And I had them in like 30 to 35 receptions. If you're talking about a team that is serious about winning, getting 35, 40 catches or whatever it might be, including three very big games out of Adam Thielen, it would be, I think, really valuable for them on a team that needs. wide receiver depth now with the injuries and with the Addison, you know, suspension.

Nathan says if they sign Thielen or trade for Thielen, that the Nailer experiment will be over by week four. I mean, yeah, I think what you'd be looking there for is for Nailer to play a certain role and for Thelan to play a certain role. Keep in mind that they had another player in Rondale Moore who was supposed to play a certain role. And that role was to be that playmaker that underneath wide receiver, well, that's not exactly what Adam Thielen is. I mean, those are kind of their opposites, but the possession wide receiver, the underneath game, like those things, that doesn't change. Like, that's similar

of getting open on the underneath parts and being able to catch the football and know the offense and get on the same page with the quarterback, all those types of things. Nailer has not had great hands in his career. He's not been an underneath wide receiver, so he could still play his downfield type role and stretch the defense and all that stuff that we've talked about with him in the past. But they've, they don't have a possession wide receiver. And last year, when it came to the Rams, you recall, I mean, the Rams just dared them like throw underneath. We're going to pressure your quarterback and we just dare you to throw underneath. And they were not able to do it. So I think Adam Thielen would give them another option to be able to do it.

So I've very much been in favor of the Adam Thelan idea because I don't think it's going to be insanely expensive. And if it is, they're going to have to move on. And that seems like that's where the stalemate is happening right now between Carolina and the Vikings, which is they want X for Adam Thielen. The Vikings want to give up Y. And no, but he's blinking, so the Vikings have to go out with all these late round draft picks and they have to ask around who else is out there. They need to acquire a receiver like yesterday, like two days ago. Like I didn't go to the fair today because I thought that they might be getting Adam Thielen.

So, you know, they need this soon. They could also wait until tomorrow to try to see who else ends up getting cut. but my issue with that is and why I prefer the Thielen idea to somebody who gets cut is that the other team would be cutting him for a reason, whoever it might be. So if the, oh, this veteran wide receiver got cut out of camp, pick him up. But that team evaluated that receiver for the whole summer. Carolina's not cutting Adam Thielen if they don't keep him. Carolina would be just training him away because they have other guys,

but they'll keep him as a depth-wide receiver if they decide to keep him. Jayton says Naylor takes the top off of nothing. I mean, I didn't look that way in Green Bay last year. I mean, when it comes to Jalen Naylor and his role in the offense, this is where you got to watch some tape because you can see the role that he plays in the offense, which is a lot of times clearing space. So taking the top off is just kind of a cliche. But what he's really doing is, just for example,

if you put him and Justin Jefferson on the same side of the field, they do this all the time. And you have Naylor run a go route. He's trying to make the safety think about it. So then Jefferson will break off a 15 yard in route as the safety is having to be pushed back by Jalen Naylor because they can go up. over the top from Naylor. They've done it on multiple occasions. And that's how that high and low

type of philosophy works. And that's where when you talk about taking the top off, well, that's the point. Like it, it moves the safety with him running a lot of deep routes. Now, that doesn't always result in him getting deep catches. But when the team jumps at Justin Jefferson, when the defense jumps at Justin Jefferson, and you could see this by watching the Green Bay game last year, where their safety, they were playing cover four and he committed to Jefferson breaking across the middle and just left Jalen Naylor wide open for a touchdown. That happens all the time. Naylor has a totally fine role in this offense, but he's not a possession receiver. He's not a brilliant route runner. He doesn't have incredible hands. Like, he does one thing really well.

And his 40 time, I mean, look, you just, I mean, I guess you're just not watching him play. he's he's fast enough to be a deep threat he was a successful deep threat last year he filled in very nicely when uh jordan addison was out for those first couple of games but he's got a very specific thing he does in the offense and adam thieland does something different so it makes you more dynamic that's that's what i think it makes him more dynamic uh will says any any chance uh joe huber will be switched to center any chances he'll make the team seven PFF blocking grade at Wisconsin, 80 plus overall. I've liked Joe Huber for sure.

I don't think he'll be moved to center. The one day he was tried at center. It didn't really work out in training camp. But it's hard to find that spot for him as an undrafted free agent because I have them on the 53 with nine offensive linemen. So you would have the starting five and then Brandl, Walter Rouse, Michael Juergens, and Joe, just in school.

It's hard to find a 10th spot for that, but they do have a bonus spot with Jordan Addison and his suspension. So they do, they do have a bonus spot there. Mo says Thielen was helping McCarthy with the playbook this offseason when they were throwing together. Do you think that he needs much ramp up period as far as getting up to speed? Well, that's one of the major benefits is that he knows McCarthy and he knows this

offense and he's also 35. And that means to me, like you saw from Stefan Gilmore, you're going to pick it up just fine pretty quickly. That's one of the reasons that it makes a lot of sense is that, you know, he has been with this team before and he's been with this quarterback in the off season and he can step right into the mix. Jared says Tim Jones is going to score a 50 plus yard touchdown within the first three weeks. already saw it in my mind. We will see if Tim Jones is on the team by the end of tomorrow as maybe a special team or a depth wide receiver. His reps would not suggest that he will be, but we will see.

Blinky is Walter Rouse, the hope to eventually replace Brian O'Neill. I don't know about that. I think that he has shown over the last two years that he can be a swing tackle in the NFL. The upside, here's the rest of the rest. reality of tackles. Every once in a while there's a tackle who is drafted in the fifth round who becomes a starter. It does happen. But you look around the league, the tackles usually you have to get a freak. Usually you have to get a Derisaw. Usually you have to get an O'Neill. It's usually the first two rounds that you have to get those franchise type of players. So I would expect

probably not, but I think he can have a Rashad Hill type of career where he is a backup. And that's good for him. And you feel like he develops into that role where he can be that guy next year. And if he has to play, then that's okay. I think he's looked good after the start of the training camp where maybe it was a little rocky to begin. And then he found his footing and had a pretty solid overall offseason. So let's see. As far as Fandul question of the day, James says predicting 38 total sacks for the defense, that would not be very very, good. If they had 38, what did they have 49 last year? That would be a pretty significant drop-off. Any punter news? Yes, they cut Oscar Chapman, thus ending our coverage of the punt competition.

I agree with you, Dennis, that O'Neill could continue playing for certainly a few more years, depending on injuries and all that. Burrito Bill, does Zamea Vaughn make the cut now? Yes, I believe so. If he doesn't, I would be shocked. I mean, he took second team reps all offseason and was someone that they were pretty high on all off season from minicamp. He made a bunch of plays. He never was dropped off of the second team. The entire summer, he was always on the second team. And it was noticeable that they would, and this is where we started to get the indication that something was maybe wrong with Mackay Blackman is when they would have the second team out there, it was, would be Jeff Okuda and Zamaia Vaughn sometimes. It was like, oh, wow. Okay, because Ok, because Okuda is the

nickel, like he plays only in nickel. He's not the nickel corner, but he plays in nickel with the ones. But when they were playing base with the twos, Okuda was playing as a starting outside corner for the twos, and then Vaughn would be playing with him. And that's where you start to get the indication of, oh, is something a little off here with this situation? This, this isn't right like this you would think that blackman would have been that guy having been the third round draft pick and having been someone that they were high on and not an undrafted free agent and that's what i mean that you know there's just been a lot of when one thing is gone wrong that they have had another thing go right with the roster like this also you know black men being moved is also

probably a product of how they felt about some i have on uh he had the low lights in the preseason in game, but he had a very good training camp. And I also thought that Dwight Mcglothern, who had a tough start to camp, had a better ending to camp. And that may have influenced it as well. I mean, you know, when they move, that's the thing. When they move Harrison Phillips, we go, oh, well, someone else behind him, praise that person. They move a former draft pick, and it's not praising the person behind him. It's, they blew it. So I guess that's just how the analysis has to work when it's such an odd situation. But I think it's worth pointing that out. out that they found another undrafted free agent who is interesting for the future for them.

Mr. Mayor, I think there's more to believe in for our corners now this time than last year. Murphy, Rogers, Okuda, McLeather and Vaughan feels better than Murphy, Gilmore, Shaq Griffin, Dwight McLaughern, and Fabia Morrow. You know, that's a fair enough point because last year, we didn't know, does Stefan Gilmore have anything left? and with Griffin, he missed all of training camp last year. And Moreau, he had been just an average type of guy. So, you know, I mean, you're right about that. Rogers is really a big swing player.

If Rogers and Murphy stay healthy, this will be fine. If they get hurt, there is a concern there. Anyone know how many waiver claims there were last year post 53? I saw a stat on this from a guy at over the cap. who said maybe like 2% of players who get cut, get waiver claimed, which is true, but, you know, there's this little selection bias because teams keep the guys that they think would get claimed, like a Max Brosmer.

So, of course, it's not going to be that many because they keep the guys that other teams are going to want to have. So, African says legitimate competition, not some Australian dude who started playing football like a year ago. well, you know, you make a, you make a point about the punting competition. And as I mentioned, the numbers from last year on Ryan Wright's punting really weren't anywhere near as bad as I think the Vikings fans make it seem.

But you're, you're right about, like last year, it was a former wide receiver that they brought in who was trying to punt. And this year, it's an Australian guy. And, you know, maybe, no, I don't think that he learned to play football a year ago. but there is, you know, he's not somebody who was a big star in college or anything like that. He didn't have great numbers in college, all that sort of stuff. I mean, fair enough. Like, they didn't bring in a veteran to compete with Ryan Wright.

And maybe they just, maybe they just think he's okay and they think he's fine. I thought okay is a fair description of, of Wright, and he's got chemistry with the kicker. So it's all right. I've never been really as upset about this as the chair. that. I mean, look, Chris Cluy was a good punter. Craig Hendrick was a good punter. Who was the guy? Mitch Berger was a really good punter. So maybe that's where the high bar comes from, that there have been some good punters in this team's history. Let's see. Jaten, the villain says, do you think Taki Taimani makes it? He holds the line of scrimmage and splits double teams. Well, we lack that after the

Harrison Phillips move. So that's a good point because I had that same thought about Taki. I, of course, I made it a lot about Jalen Redmond. Redmond just had a marvelous training camp, really. Like, he just was great. And I think that we're going to see a breakout from Jalen Redmond this year. And Levi Drake, you saw him in the last preseason game. The only reason he was playing in the last preseason game, I suspect, was just because he had missed a little time with an ankle injury and they wanted to get him those reps. And then he destroyed the Tennessee Titans. They just had a great game.

He was in the backfield blowing up plays. Levi Drake's had a really good camp too. And I think those things played into it. But Taki, early in camp, it was actually interesting with Taki. Early in camp, he was getting very little in terms of reps. And I guess I thought, well, you know, maybe that was last year. And they're just different this year. But then as it went along and he got into the preseason games,

He made a couple of plays in the preseason games got a lot more work over the last few days of training camp. And it's very possible that they think, well, you'll piecemeal that role together with Taki holding the line when they need him to. Redmond as a backfield penetrator. I think Levi is sort of that power guy. And as much as I respect Harrison Phillips, like through the roof respect for him, has had a great NFL career. the run-stuffing defensive tackle is not the hardest thing in the world to find. Like, there are a lot of them. And I know he does more than that, and it's a more complicated thing.

And he was a captain, and I know he talked today in New York, and he said, it is a little surprising when you're the captain of the team to be traded somewhere right before the start of the season. So immense respect for him is more than just a run-stuffing defensive tackle. But at the end of the day, that's the role. And so they have other veterans there. and they have guys who can get into the backfield now that we're going to pretty significantly reduce his snap count, I think.

I also suspected that they wanted to play a traditional three, four, and it just didn't work as well as a four-three look with the two defensive tackles playing a three technique. And so then they were saying, well, where are we going to play Harrison Phillips? If we're just going to play more of a four-three nickel, more three, four-three nickel-type base, probably with the three safeties. and that's why they made that move. But I think Taki plays into it, quite possibly.

We're going to see on cut down day because that's a hard one. You need to have Ingram Dawkins and then, you know, the starters, three other guys, I mean, could they keep eight there? That would be a lot. Maybe that allows them to keep seven. I was thinking Elijah Williams, you know, might be in there as well. Elijah Williams is probably a guy you can get through to, I would think, the practice squad, even as good as he's been,

but you're talking about an undrafted free agent who wasn't on a lot of people's radars. So maybe, I think that they probably more likely can get Elijah Williams through and they'll keep talking, which you're right about that. Todd said, okay, I assume Todd you were researching Alec Pierce potential trades. If somebody has an Alec Pierce,

because I see that name come up constantly, if someone has evidence of Alec Pierce then like show me I just haven't seen someone came up with that name but I haven't seen any reports that he could be on his way out but Todd says there's a hidden gem hitting his stride with the Colts quote Treadwell brought in six targets for 116 yards and a touchdown in a 41 to 14 preseason when hey I'm going to say this about Lequan Treadwell good for him because a lot of guys who are first round draft picks they don't want to kick around the league. They want to have it where they're the starter, they're the star, or they end up out of the league because they got paid as a rookie and they've got their

money and, you know, whatever, right? But Laquan Treadwell has fought the fight to stay in the National Football League. And after a pretty tough start to his career as a locker room guy in 16, I just don't think he really understood the NFL environment very well. He became a really a well-liked guy. So I don't think that he'll be coming back, but heck, it is, it is great for him that he's still in the NFL. I'm happy for him. Will Woss says drafting is largely random, hard to persistently beat consensus boards.

Quasi's issue is bad trades or non-trades. Well, I mean, I guess, I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, have they made bad trades? or do you mean bad trades in the, or do you mean the trade down in 22? Yeah, that was a bad trade down in 22. Although, of course, if they had drafted almost anybody else other than Kyle Hamilton, it would still be considered bad. Like even Jordan Davis, who everybody wanted, didn't turn out to be good.

Jameson Williams took three years to become good. You know, I mean, uh, kosher, we'll just say that, says, uh, cornerback drafts have been disappointing since Xavier Rhodes. really, Trey Wayans, but yeah, McKenzie Alexander, the whole list of names, it just hasn't worked out very well for them. I don't have an explanation for it. What other team has drafted 10 corners or whatever it's been, and they all fail? It's, it's just been a bad run. Matt says, based on how you describe Naylor's role in clearing out for Jefferson, but not a smooth route runner, could Felton play that role in the me time. I think so, Matt. I think so, that

Felton could play some of that and look if they don't pull off a deal which I would be very surprised if they don't but if they are not able to pull off some sort of deal and they have to go into week one with what they have and if Naylor is hurt and this is all you got it's Jefferson Lucky Jackson Thayer Thomas Ty Felton and maybe Tim Jones I don't even know if that's all if that's all you have then Felton has to play that role because he's the only one who can push with speed. And he has had some good plays in practice going downfield. And he has made some catches because people will ask, you know, kind of every day, like, is he a bust? Is, you know, is Felton the next bad Quasi draft pick? And I guess what I would say is he's somebody

that needs development. Like he needs to continue his growth. But he should be able to play to some extent right now. But he needs to continue that growth. He can't be someone you're asking. like Jaylenaylor took several years as a middle round draft pick. So you need to, you know, develop him for at least a year. But he could, he get into some games? Yeah, it would probably be by committee is how they would deal with it. Where, all right, lucky Jackson, you're going to play the role of Jordan Addison. And Thayer Thomas is an underneath guy.

And Felton is, you know, a deep threat slash maybe playmaker from time to time. And Josh Oliver, you're playing on. almost every snap. Naylor's injury is either hand or wrist. I am not sure he's had a wrap on it. And they don't have to put out an injury report until two weeks from now. So we're not 100% sure on that situation. So let's see.

If I had to pick a GM head coach from Vikings reporters who would have been, yeah, these, none of us could coach. None of us could coach. I'm sure some of us could GM. None of us could coach. Absolutely not. No way, no world, no how. If you have a conversation with Kevin O'Connell about anything.

So I did a story with O'Connell when he first got here in 2022, where I had some cool data from, now I forget, Matt Harmon's site, reception, perception. I had some cool data on, I think, maybe. was 23, 2023. So I had this data on Kirk Cousins throwing in 2022. And so I sat down with O'Connell and I asked him about the data, which was the routes that cousins had the most success on. And he broke down a couple of the routes. It was like posts, slants, go routes. Just I don't, I don't know exactly. But like, those were the type of routes that he was most successful on.

So then we talked through them. And I mean, how long have I been doing this? And my head was still spinning. Like with the amount of detail that an NFL head coach knows for every single combination, every single play, every single scheme. The knowledge they have is beyond me. So I would not be able to coach. I mean, I think that a lot of people could do the drafting and a lot of people could decide on which free agents you like. But if you think that's all the GM actually does, then you're missing a lot. I mean, the GM is a manager of an entire franchise. He's not just the guy who pulls the cards when you, you know, take draft picks or something.

And also, you know, when you sign a player, you don't just call them up and be like we signed you. You have to negotiate that. You have to recruit those players. You have to clear it with ownership. You have to run meetings with all of the leaders of your franchise and create consensus is within your building for decisions you're going to make. Like, there's a lot more to it than we make it seem here. So I don't think any of us are very qualified to do any of those things.

Patrick Roycey for, Patrick Roycey for coaches is excellent. So, um, anyway, KFT says rooting for McLeathern. Yeah, McLeatherin's got, he's got good vibes to him, I think, uh, within the locker room. And look, he knows how to play the football. that is a start where if you have somebody that from the beginning thing that they know how to do is when the ball is in the air, they know how to go up and get it.

So I'll just give you an example. In the last day of training camp, they had a scrimmage. And there was a deep ball to, I want to say it was Thayer Thomas. Now I'm not 100% sure. It might have been Tim Jones. But there's a deep ball that they're throwing up over the top. And Dwight McLeathern gets his head turned around, reaches a hand. back, knocks the ball away. It was just a great play. And he had interceptions early and can't,

like, this guy's got something to him for getting his hands on the football. But I think that it comes down to the details of how you need to play every single rep. It goes way beyond just, can you play the football? But they, they should keep developing him. They should keep him on the roster and keep developing him because of that, even if they've had some frustration with some other things. If you just pop it in, Fanduil question of the day was that the over under for the sacks for Jonathan Grenard is 9.25 sacks over under. I think that that's an over.

For me, the way that he's played in training camp, how many total sacks for Grenard, Van Ginkle, and Turner? How many total sacks? I would go with maybe 26 total snaps between the three of them in a really good scenario. Did it have an answer as high as 35 earlier? Christopher said, are they trading for a corner? I believe Diggs?

Well, I mean, Trayvon Diggs, that would be something. But as of right now, I have not gotten any other updates on what they're going to do. But it's very clear that moves are still going to be made. What I think might happen is there's this saying. deadlines make deals. Tomorrow is the deadline. Middle of the day is at 3 o'clock, 2 o'clock, central, I don't know, whatever.

Central time might be 3 central, whatever time it is tomorrow afternoon, is when you have to have the 53 in. And of course, right after that, this show will be live again. So make sure you hop on in right after the cut downs. But that deadline for teams that are looking to trade players that looms large.

Because if you are thinking, ah, we're going to cut this guy. He lost the camp battle. We got to get rid of him. We got to find somebody to, you know, to trade him off to. Well, that's where the Vikings just acquired themselves a ton of draft capital at the back end of next year's day three. You know, day, fifth rounder for Howell, sixth rounder for Phillips, sixth rounder for Mackay Blackman. If you're a team that's going to cut somebody who has some value and you're just hoping to get something out of it. Well, the Vikings are there with a bunch of draft capital. So tomorrow,

I think, could have some action. If not later tonight, hey, it's, it's early, right? These deals sometimes come in, who knows when. But I think tomorrow is kind of a deadline for the Vikings to get this stuff done. If they're going to sign another corner, get it done. If they're going to sign another wide receiver, like, get it done or make that trade for Thielen or whoever else. That's got to happen pretty darn soon, I think. Fabian Morrow is with the 49ers. Okay, good for him. I was not aware that he signed anywhere.

Mr. Mayor, what do people think a GM does for the other 10 months outside of pre-draft? It's a complicated, complicated job. It's a lot more complicated than we think. So what I don't remember Willowall, what trade you're talking about in 2020. for the draft, but, you know, we're just, we just don't have to do the thing all the time with every draft pick that doesn't work out and just lash out at it. Things happen with Mackay Blackman and they have to deal with it. Frank says I could see Blackman playing with hesitation, but I thought for sure they would give

him time to get his head straight. That's what, yeah, that's what it was. He played with hesitation, and I don't know where that came from or, when that will be fixed and I think the Vikings can't really wait around for it to be fixed with some other options out there. Mike Hilton played well last year. Rasul Douglas has been recently pretty good. Mr. Mayor says if Turner and McCarthy turn into studs, everyone will shut up about Quasi's drafting. Well, you know, you would also think that winning 14 games last year would make it a little bit less of a main discussion point, but we haven't had a football game

in a really, really long time. So that's really what it is to me is I just look at things a little bit differently when it comes to this because I've done so much work on this when it comes to the draft over the years, gone through every analytics, got the whole book over here on football analytics. And one thing that nobody can ever find a way to disprove is how random the drafts are. They've had bad luck. They have had bad luck.

This is a bad luck thing. And so, and look, I mean, it's just horrible. but what happened with Kyrie Jackson is a bad luck thing. And even with Lewis seen and the injury that he had, again, I don't know if he was going to make it, but that certainly made it so he wasn't. And it set him way back behind. And I don't know if he ever came back to being 100% in terms of his aggressiveness,

mentality and whatever else it might be. So they have had a lot of things go wrong with these draft picks. And some of them were just bad. Like the Ed Ingram pick, then this is where you have to separate these into, like did it make sense? Did it not make sense? Like, did it make sense to draft Ed Ingram? No, it didn't.

Did it make sense to draft Andrew Booth Jr.? Oh, absolutely it did. Ingram was projected as a fifth round pick. That's a huge reach. But when it comes to someone like Mackay Blackman, I mean, he was a productive corner in college who seemed to fit the mentality of Brian Flores. And like, by the way, you know, we're pointing the finger at the GM.

I noticed nobody's mentioned Brian Flores. Because Flores has done so well at play. evaluation. After 23, it looked like, oh, yeah, Blackman. That was his guy. And that, and that's kind of, but then something happened. Ingram at least started. That's true. Uh, Krawl. Are you saying that we are snake bit? Well, yeah. I mean, I think that what's happened has been, it's been a little bit of both. Well, a little bit of three things, actually, when it comes to the, to the draft. One, it's been, of course, yes, bad luck. It's not hard to find the bad luck here. I mean, when you draft, even with Lewis Seen, if you draft a guy who was projected by some to be a top 15 draft pick, who was a great player at Georgia and Georgia, like the best college, the best defense, he was the defensive player or the player of the game for the national championship.

He had been coached by Dion Sanders. Like he had, if you watch his first press conference, he looked like he had a mature attitude and all that. and then, you know, the first training camp, he gets beat out by Cam Bynum, but then, you know, go on to find out Cam Bynum is a $15 million safety in the league. So that is another thing. They didn't realize they had Cam Bynum. That played into it. And then he has this horrific injury.

I mean, if that, that's bad luck right there that it turned out to be nothing that they could get from Lewis seen. Andrew Booth, Jr., his concern was injuries. Turn out he couldn't play. That's kind of bad luck, too, when you draft a guy who's projected in the top 20 and then you draft him in the second round, you feel great about your pick and he just can't play at all. So there's ones that are majorly questionable, that trade down was questionable, Ingram was questionable, there's definitely some other ones that you go, I don't

know, but Mackay Blackman, that looks like a good pick. And then, you know, you do have a star wide receiver that has to be mentioned as well. And you have Ivan Pace, a starting linebacker that has to be mentioned. You have Redmond is an undrafted free agent. Levi Drake is a seventh rounder, like, there, there are players here that are contributing. It's just, you know, some, even when it comes to, like, Ty Chandler, a guy who looked like it was going to work out, and then he just couldn't figure out pest protection. I don't know. It has been, it has been one thing after the other with the draft picks, but if you're going to

have that happen, then you have to have the other side of it. Also, like, here's a good example. Theo Jackson is going to play a ton for this defense this year. If they had drafted Theo Jackson, we'd be like, look, a draft. But instead, they signed Theo Jackson off somebody else's draft. Right after they, right after the Titans picked him and cut him out of camp, then the Viking signed him. So does that count as a draft pick?

I don't know. It's like the same thing with pay. If you reordered this and their draft picks were Theo Jackson, Ivan Pace, Jalen Redmond, Zamea Vaughn, like then it would just look different than it looks right now. And that's why we kind of keep going back and forth about it, because I just look at the overall strength of the roster and how they've dealt with the issues with drafting, whereas it's very hard not to just be like,

they traded a draft pick. He's a failure. So I don't know. Let's see. Jonathan says, who cares about the draft? Our undrafted free agents are by the most fifth round picks. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's, like, like the name Kyle Hamilton gets brought up.

And the thing with the Kyle Hamilton deal was I didn't like the idea to trade down in 2022. Just didn't just thought when you get a top 15 pick, you got to pick there. Because if you trade down, you're really taking a risk that you're passing on potential, you know, all star type players, right? Pro Bowl, all pro Hall of Famers, they get drafted in the top 15. So trading out of there. I didn't like that.

And I think what Quasi learned for his lesson from that was you can't try to build an entire roster off one draft and trading down wasn't the right move. But you also look at that draft. Yeah, if they took Kyle Hamilton, they'd be geniuses. They do have somebody else, which is Josh Mattelis that they found in his place. But the other guys that they could have drafted at that spot were not good. Like when you look at here's the crazy thing about the draft, right? is if you look at the 2022 draft, everybody loves Kyle Hamilton.

He's amazing. You could have seen that coming. I totally agree with you guys. And Jameson Williams was the guy I wanted, took him three years to be good, but okay, Jordan Davis hasn't done much for the Eagles. Kenyon Green just got cut again. Jahan Dotson's on his what number team.

Zion Johnson has not been a success. Traylon Burks, Trevor Penning, Kenny Pickett. Trent McDuffie. Quay Walker hasn't been successful. Kair Elam hasn't been successful. Tyler Smith, I don't know in Dallas if he's any good or not. Linderbaum, I think, has been good.

And then Jermaine Johnson hasn't been good. Devin Lloyd hasn't been good. Devante Wyatt's not a difference maker. Cole Strange isn't good. George Karloftus. So when we go through that entire 2022 draft, Kyle Hamilton, and then Trent McDuffey and George Carloftus,

are basically the only guys that would have been difference makers and there's a ton of busts in there. Like we don't factor that in, you know, to the evaluation that, yeah, if they had picked Hamilton, their geniuses, but a lot of the other guys, they blew up there.

So, you know, there are times, Tyler Smith is a good guard. Okay, so Tyler Smith, we'll throw him in there. So that's like four out of how many. I liked McDuffie, too. I'm not excusing that draft. So don't mistake it. I'm just pointing out the race.

randomness. It's like if they had picked Kenyon Green, everyone would have been like, yes, a guard. Oh my gosh, brilliant. And then he would have failed completely. So, you know, there's, there, this goes for every team has this happened. Even Howie Roseman the other day was talking about not getting Justin Jefferson and instead taking Jalen Rager. You're right, Bo Richter is also, he's, he's in there. So every team has these. It's how you deal. with him. And I'm going to say that every single time this comes up. Yes, those guys were better than Lewis seen. But the point was that if you drafted Jordan Davis right now, you'd be talking about what a disappointment he was. And for most of James and Williams career, you would have

been talking about what a disappointment he was. So it's not like there was a huge number of great prospects there. And okay, you could say Kansas City is great at drafting. let's let's put it through the test because every team fails this test by the way every team fails this test are they great at drafting every year of course they're not so they did a really good job with that draft and getting McDuffie and Karloftus oh by the way they drafted sky more in the second round they just had to get rid of him and then you go back how about from 2020 their draft Clyde Edwards allaire Willie Gay Lucas Nang Ligerius need was good for a year and they got rid of them. That's not a good draft. McColl Hardman, Juan Thornhill is a pretty decent player,

Kalin Sanders. Every team has drafts that work and drafts that don't. And what the Vikings have been able to do is they've been able to find other ways to fill these spots. And now they have to do the same thing at corner. Zamea Vaughn must, you know, is probably going to be a part of that. And somebody else is probably going to be a part of that. But I think from from hereafter, like after today the drafting in the 2022 draft and 2023 draft that sort of it's I'm not talking about anymore like this is this is the last day that we get to rehash a bunch of drafts because we've got what's called an NFL season coming up and the Vikings are a really good football team and they're ready to compete and what they're doing here in these last couple days

is they are talking about like if you are building a house for an NFL team right now They have most of the parts of a mansion for their roster, okay? And what they're doing right now is they're changing out the drapes of their mansion, of their roster. They have megastar receiver, megastar outside linebackers, pro bowl caliber defensive tackles, one of the greatest safeties in the history of the game, two really good running backs, a completely revamped offensive line, and you're spending hours and hours yelling at me about a third round draft pick from 2023 that didn't work. out. I mean, we need to keep these things in perspective, right? Like, at the bottom line,

we need to keep these things in perspective. McI Blackman, something went wrong. They got something back for him. And now they've got some work to do. But overall, it's a really good football team. And they continue to find more and more guys like Brosmer, like Zamea Vaughn. We'll see if Chambliss makes the team. We'll see like they have continued to find replacements for these players, including Jalen Redmond, and you just never talk about them when we complain about the drafting. It's never a discussion about the other players that they've been able to go out and find. So I understand the obsession. I understand the absolute obsession with the NFL draft. It's exciting. It's fun to rehash and all those things. But I mean,

it just, it goes way too far to the point where you act like this team doesn't have any idea what it's doing building a roster because a third round draft pick from 2023 didn't work out after a major injury. So they need to figure out, they need to figure out what they're going to do at a depth corner position and with wide receiver in the coming days. That's what they need to do. And that's goal number one is by the end of tomorrow. I think the end of tomorrow. When we do this show tomorrow, have on your roster another corner and another wide receiver because there's not a lot of time so you start playing football and these issues the the injury to nailer that was supposed to be something that was fine the injury to rondale more that was something supposed to be fine they're a

little bit in scramble mode here because of some bad luck and some things that have gone wrong and they've got to figure that out but there's no reason to just beat this you know any deeper into the ground about uh the draft classes when you know this is this is how it goes and also they've drafted like 20 20 something players i mean it's just not a big enough sample to really say the things that you guys are saying. And there's also a couple guys who are going to really dictate whether they're a success or not. J.J. McCarthy, Donovan Jackson, Dallas Turner, like those guys, if those guys work out, then it's a completely different tune. But we just don't know. And there's still a handful of players we don't know on.

So that's all, that is the bottom line here is that moves need to be made. Things need to be changed by the end of the day tomorrow. We get a trade today that gives us more questions to ask than it is answers. But they have the draft capital. They have the cap space. And, you know, somebody threw out there,

maybe there is a bigger trade than we expect in the works to be trying to stack up all this draft capital. That's possible. Do you need a punt return or yes. Yep. Yes, you do need a punt returner. So, all right, well, listen, so I had a conversation with national NFL reporter Matt Verderam the other day.

He was out at Vikings camp. He also visited the Packers and the Bears and the Detroit Lions, all of their training camp. So Matt is a good friend of mine. We actually both went to Division III schools in New York that competed against each other in a bunch of sports. So kind of fun to build a friendship with Matt over the years, a great national NFL reporter for s i.com so we had a discussion going inside the nfc north i'm going to bring you that conversation now really good really fun and matt's he's a lot of fun to listen to do talk football gets really fired up however i will still be sitting here at my computer if we have more breaking news so if

anything else pops up with the mcky blackman trade or with anything else to come then i will break into the interview with big breaking news for let me put it up on the screen one more time. Receiver watch 2025, which may be over by tomorrow. We'll see. So here is myself and national NFL reporter Matt Verder. Look, guys, I am just about at the age where I'm starting to notice that hairline fading a little bit. So if you're struggling with the same problem, allow me to make a suggestion. Give hymns a try. Try him's hair loss solutions. And you'll be joining the hundreds of thousands of subscribers who found their hair again. Hymns provide you with a convenient quality access to a range of hair loss treatments that work, all from the comfort of your couch.

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Results vary based on studies of topical and oral, monoxidil, and finesteroide. prescription products require an online consultation with health care provider and will determine if a prescription is appropriate restrictions apply see website for details and important safety information all right we welcome into the show national NFL writer for sports illustrated matt verteram who i enjoy seeing about once or twice a year depending on how good the minnesota vikings are you pop in saw you for one of the least exciting training camp practices this year for the Vikings, but you had a chance to talk to a lot of the Vikings, brass and players that day. And you have also, Matt, gone on a tour of the NFC North during this training camp in

preseason. You've been to Green Bay, Chicago, and most recently Detroit. So let's take the tour. I am very interested in your takeaways from stopping by training camps in other cities because I have been myself with the horse blinders on, but maybe the best place to start. is just what you took away from Vikings camp. And I know it was not the practice that you would have liked to have seen. It was a lot of walkthrough in slow motion. But when you left,

how did you feel about where the Vikings are at? Look, I mean, I have been very high in Minnesota all the season. I think they're, I think Minnesota is really talented. And if McCarthy can just be a point guard for them, I don't know why they can't be super successful. Now, Addison being out the first three games,

obviously is an ideal, but he'll be back. Jefferson wasn't practicing when I was there. I didn't get the hamstring, but obviously he's terrific. Look, I think if you're the Vikings, you're sitting there going, all right, defensively, our front seven should be about as dynamic as anybody in football. Our corner situation is Byron Murphy, and then there's a little uncertainty. Like, I know that Mackay Blackman's coming off the ACL, but he's a talented kid. I liked him as rookie season.

I love Mattelis in the secondary, Harrison Smith. It feels like he's 87 years old, but he's still good. And most importantly, and this is where I think the Vikings have a big advantage on a lot of teams as they're coaching. Flores is a great coordinator, and O'Connell's a great head coach, and he's going to get the most out of that offense. The Flores is going to get the most out of that defense. I really like the fact that the Vikings picked up Kelly and Fry's inside.

They're good players. They've been good players for a long time, and they know each other. So there's going to be a chemistry there that helps. I talk to Will after practice. He talked a lot about that. I think the backfield is really good. I think, again, the big thing is just, can J.J. McCarthy just go out there and, hey, man,

we're going to ask you to execute simple throws 20 times. And then we're going to ask you to make five or six throws that are more challenging. Can you do that? Can you do most of that? Because if the answer to that question is yes, I think the Vikings are really good. If the answer to that question is, look, they've got to have the training wheels on them all year and long, it gets harder because when you play good teams, you have to make plays to win the games. And it's a great division. But I'm high on Minnesota. Look, I saw, and so trying to

practice is right. I saw nine teams. And Minnesota is as talented is just about any of those teams that I saw with the big question, of course, being the quarterback. Right. And so you mentioned like a phrase that we actually heard a lot from Sam Darnold last year, which was play point guard out there. He mentioned that a lot. In fact, Sam Donald said that his biggest area of growth, and I think there's a tie-in

here as a NFL quarterback was when he got to sit behind Brock Purdy. And he watched someone who is way less talented than him have a lot more success than he's ever had because he played point guard and he got the football to where it's supposed to go. And I've heard Kevin

O'Connell and Sean McVey and Kyle Shanhan and all that coaching tree. And the way that they think about playing quarterback in the NFL is exactly the way that you phrased that they're not just playing point guard but also in the idea that

I can create you this many throws, then you have to make this many plays. So I will get you Justin Jefferson open a handful of times. I'll get you T.J. Hawkinson underneath. I will get you play actions, which we know are a much more successful than regular shotgun dropback type of plays.

And even I think this year, they went out and got him the guards. They went out and got him the running game. And even though there is absences there, they've got two tight ends. Like there is so much to work with. But it does so often come down to look at the history of Vikings games recently. How many one score games are they in? And that's where I think the hard part to figure out from watching camp because I see him executing those easy button plays.

Oh, Addison's running open over the middle because they, you know, trick the defense or Addison got open or whatever. Okay, he's completing those. The other parts of it are a little more challenging to figure out. You cover a lot of Kansas City Chiefs. That's not hard to figure out where Patrick Mahomes can take that to the next level. With McCarthy, I think he's got a mindset for it, but executing it in the game at full speed is just a different story.

it is it is i think like if you're in minnesota with mccarthy you have to understand first and foremost it's something that every NFL coach in the league will tell you which is most times teams lose games they don't want them most times games in the NFL are lost because a guy takes a bunch of penalties or a team takes a bunch of penalties or they you know they're negative two in the turnover ratio i mean that's typically speaking if you don't make a lot of big mistakes you're going to win you're just going to win now you start playing really good teams and that's like I said earlier that's when it becomes imperative I've got to make a half dozen plays in this game I'm not just going to I'm not

going to play Philly and just watch them beat themselves for 16 minutes but when you play a team like I don't know pick a team out of back Carolina yeah you probably can just play the game out and you're going to end up being just fine um again I think there's sort of the talent's there I don't have a reason to think that it's not um You know, they won, I mean, the Vikings won 14 games last year for a reason. And it wasn't like a handful of years ago, and they had that year with cousins where it felt like every week was just this insane, magical. They were, I mean, they were dominating teams a lot of weeks last season. It wasn't fluky.

It wasn't coincidental. It wasn't like you watched the games and just went, all the Vikings are getting really lucky. Like that's not happened. So I have no reason to think that they can't make McCarthy eventually a very good quarterback. But right now, just a good, viable, I know he's not a rookie, but essentially a rookie quarterback, and kind of let him work through this stuff that he's going to have to work through as the year goes on. Because, listen, there are going to be games this year where he gets got. It's just going to happen.

He's never seen NFL defenses. I don't care who you are, unless you are the rarest of rare guys. You're going to have a game where you're sitting there at half time going, you know, man, they put a wrinkle in defensively that we didn't prepare for. we didn't expect and I'm really struggling because I've never seen this before and then you hope

that you can make the adjustment and you can find a way to win that game and if you can't have nothing else you learn from it and go okay the next time we see that we're prepared for it and that's where coaching comes in that's where Kevin O'Connell comes in

and okay you know what we know what they're doing here's how we're going to combat it here's how I'm going to make this easier that's part of this but he's got elite talent around him and that makes life a hell of a lot easier So I'm sure that somewhere along the way in the off season, you were forced by law as an NFL writer to rank quarterbacks.

And I'm curious about where you think McCarthy has to rank in order for this team to truly compete. Not, oh, well, they can make the playoffs with you mentioned, hey, if you don't make mistakes, you win. That's been Pittsburgh, but they don't go anywhere in the playoffs. You can, you know, get, can he picket's career record is 15 and 10 because he just doesn't. doesn't throw a ton of interceptions, but no one's thinking that he's going to win in the playoffs. How good does he have to be in order for this roster that they have, the coaching staff, you mentioned the advantages that they have to get over the top. And I don't mean, Super Bowl's hard to figure out. You can have a kick go the wrong way or a fumble go the wrong

way or something in a playoff game. But to be on that, in that conversation as they walk into the playoffs. Look, I mean, you can, as you point, You can make the playoffs by just not being a self-inflicted disaster of a football thing. Pittsburgh does it every year. That also, as you mentioned, then they get annihilated because they go play Baltimore. They go play Buffalo, and it's, yeah, great. Now you get to score 30 points. They can't.

It's over. I think, you know, the good part is those playoffs come after 17 games. So you've got time to work up to it. If the Vikings are going to beat teams in the NFC playoffs that are good teams, teams like the Rams, the Eagles, I even like the Buccaneers, so I'll toss them in there. The Buccaneers and the Lions. It requires you to be able to not only make big throws on a third and eight, it also requires you to sometimes know when to live for another down.

You know, we all watched that wild card game against the Rams. Donald took a million sacks in that game. And sometimes, man, listen, throw it out of bounds. I can live with it. you're going to, you'll throw it out of bounds. Okay, it's third and nine now. I can't live with third and 17. I can't, that is a non-starter.

I don't care who you are. You're not going to convert that very often. And I think for McCarthy, as the year goes on, it's about understanding the push pull of, okay, you know what? We're up by 10 in the third quarter. It's third and nine. I might be able to force this ball into Justin Jefferson.

But if I leave it inside, it could be a pick six. bro check it down and throw it away you're up 10 points don't worry about it it's the understanding also though in that same okay we got five minutes left and we're we're down too in that same situation's there i got to try to make that throw i got to give my guy a shot especially that guy to make a play because hey if we punt this ball we may not get the ball back you know they may or if they score a touchdowns game's over we don't have enough time to come back I think it's about understanding risk-reward. It's about understanding when to go for it.

It's about the moments in situational football. Okay, it's third and eight. I got to make a play here. And it's second and five. I can throw this one away. It's not that big of it. And I think sometimes because of Twitter, red zone, I think there's this thought of like you watch a guy make a highlight play.

You know, like that guy's a great quarterback. Not necessarily. because you didn't see the five throws you made after that that were awful, but you just saw that I always use this as the example. It's like Anthony Richardson's throw to Alec Pierce last year. It's one of the most

unbelievable throws you'll ever see. He was like 9 of 30 in that game. But people look at that throw and they're like, oh my God, did you see that sort of Alex Pierce? He's unbelievable. It's like, no, actually he's not good. But that one throw was great. And I think it's about understanding and being able

to, in the moment when you need it, when you have third nine and there's three minutes left and you've got to have if you can do that you can win big games a lot of them even in january and this is something that has come up a lot with j j mccarthy where i think that the skeptics of him which is understandable he hasn't played yet and when he was coming out in the draft i had questions about this as well with you know what is really the upside of j j mccarthy and why aren't they throwing more and all all those sorts of questions that have lingered out there because he hasn't played football, but if there's one thing that I notice from now, I don't know what I've seen, 40 practices of his between mini camps and

OTAs and maybe 15 of those were really intense. I'm just kidding. But, you know, with McCarthy, I think that the superpower that he has is not necessarily size. He is fast. He does have a strong arm. I don't think he's got the fastest legs or the strongest arm in the NFL. Those are capable things. I think it is what you described. I think that the situational football, the ability to process, the ability to learn an offense and get the ball where it's

supposed to go, like everything that you're talking about, I think he has checked those boxes for me. And the most impressive things I've seen from him have all been in the two-minute drives. Against the Patriots and their joint practice, just crushed a two-minute drive, let a touchdown drive at the

back of the end zone. It was Jordan Addison. There was a scramble mixed in. But there was also, like you said, a very smart throwaway, which after he talked about Josh McCown praising him for, and those are the things that you truly can't know till you're in the real thing, but that's the biggest asset of J.J. McCarthy, and if they're going to get there, they're going to get there on the back of him playing smart football as well as also making the occasional highlight real play. We could spend all day talking about that, but there's three other teams I want to get to that you visited. Let's go with the Green Bay Packers for the next one,

the Packers, to me, have just been a yawn festival to talk about. Normally, I've always said that Vikings fans, they're like the neighbors where they see, oh, our neighbor got a new car. Like, oh, what's going on? Oh, did they get a new dog? What's going on with our neighbors? That's how the Vikings fans are with the Packers. This year, there just hasn't been anything really to talk about with them.

So my question to you is, well, what is there? to talk about with the Green Bay Packers. I don't know. No, I, it was actually funny though, you bring it because like I was driving. I had a three hour drive to Green Bay when I was going and I was thinking all the way that I was like I have no idea what I'm going to write about. I have no idea what there is because normally when I go there, I usually sit with on the floor we go in his office and we sit there and chat for a while and this time.

I was like you know what I feel like I always bother Matt with this. He's super gracious but I talked to him like a month prior to me. I don't know that I need to talk to him. for this. End up talking to Sean, Gary. But the point I'm making is, you know, I watched them and one consistent, repeating

thought. They have a lot of good football players. I don't know that they have one great player anywhere on the roster. It's a bunch of guys who are just good, which portends that they'll be a pretty good team. But, like, on 3rd and 8, I keep bringing this up.

Like, I know in Minnesota, I know where the ball is going. I know that guy is going to get open, and if he does and he's going to trust so many people tell him that somebody else going to be wild open. Who the hell is getting the ball thrown to him on third and eight in Green Bay? I don't know. Did Jaden Reed?

Is Christian Watson ever going to play football? I don't know. Like, is Matthew Golden that guy? Maybe. I don't know. Find out. Defensively, I got to get a big stop. Who's the corner?

Who's the guy that I'm like, you're covering him? It used to be Jire Alexander when he was healthy, right? Like, before he got cut. I have no idea the hell that guy is. I don't know. I have no idea who he is. So that's the problem I have with the Packers. I just look at them

and say, your collection of players were good players, but there's nobody there that's a blue chip play. I think they're basically what they've been the last couple of years, fighting for a seven seed, in the mix, always able to win a game.

Like a team you're not going to count out in any game, but also a team. You're like, yeah, if they play a team, though, that's really talented and that team executes, they're probably going to win. And that's kind of how I feel about Green Bay right now. I feel exactly the same way. And I think a lot of it does actually swing on Matthew Golden because if I look at the other receivers, I like Jaden Reed. I mean, he's ripped apart the Vikings a couple of times and he's been good against them. But you are not saying, oh, man, how are they going to deal with Jaden Reed?

not in the same way that you'd be talking about a Jefferson or even in Amin-Ross, St. Brown, or I'm not sure what Roma Dunezay is going to be, but he kind of scares you with his skill set. And does any of these guys scare you? But if you read Packers' reporters, there has been a lot of positive reviews of Matthew Golden. I think it's hard to figure out,

is he just going to be okay? Is he going to be real good? Is he going to be great? Like, figuring that out in training camp is almost impossible. But at least he's checking some boxes. is that's to me with the biggest thing that's been missing in Green Bay since Jordan Love took over, though, is who is the person that he can truly, truly rely on every once in a while hitting Christian Watson for a deep shot, Jada Reed being the underneath guy, randoms show up like Bow Melton every once in a while who I guess is now a safety maybe or something. I mean, like it's, but that's the story, Romeo Dobbs is a guy that's on the trade block and they were raving over him not too long ago. I just don't know what I'm supposed to make of that.

And for me, the story of the Packers is, okay, yes, you're right. They're going to be competitive. Would you be shocked if they want a playoff game? Like, of course not. Like, they're good enough. They're coached well. The story of the Packers to me is, do they walk out of 2025 feeling like we got our dude, we're going to get there with our roster?

Like, we know that Jordan Love is the guy. And this is going to be our quarterback for the next eight to 10 years or whatever. or do they walk out going, do we really want to pay that much? Because like think about, you know, someone like Tua a couple of years ago, throws for all those yards and everything else, then they lose the playoffs,

and you still had this sort of sinking feeling of, I don't think that's going to be worth the money. And I actually don't know where we're going to land on Jordan Love by the end of this. No, look, I think Jordan Love is a capable, competent quarterback, but I don't think there's any world where you're ever going to look at Jordan Love and sit there and go, man, that guy is a top five quarterback in the NFL? And so, okay, is he a top 10 quarterback? I mean, there's a world where he could be.

Is he right now? No, he's not. I think it's hard because when you have a quarterback who you think you have any ability, like you just sign him. Because if you can't find that guy, you're screwed. The problem with that becomes, though, if they max out as the 12th best quarterback in football, you're not going to win the Super Bowl. I mean, if you go and look over the years, in recent years, who goes to the Super Bowl is Brady, it's Mahomes,

and then you just mix in, you know, Burrow made it once, great players. Stafford made it once, terrific quarterback. Hertz has made it twice, and there's a dialogue about him, like, how good is he? But he's a good player who's surrounded by an unbelievable roster. The only team that's really been able to get there with guys who you're like, are the Niners with Garoppolo and then Purdy but again like so you basically

either have to have a super team around the guy or you have to have the guy I mean hell as Buffalo as Baltimore how hard it's been they've got the guy and they can't get there because they run into a guy who's bad it's just you have to have either an unbelievable

roster or you have to have the top one to three quarterback in the league and if you don't have that guy you're just not going And that's the reality of the way football is played now in 2025. It's so wild how it's kind of played out where the AFC is won by quarterbacks and the NFC is won by general managers because it's GMs that have been able to build the strongest team. San Francisco you mentioned, but I'll even go back to the Rams when they built their first iteration with Jared Gough there when they brought in Andrew Whitworth and a bunch of different free agents, Robert Woods on that team. that team actually kind of reminds me of McCarthy with golf had some limitations and they built

up a bunch of veterans around him. But, you know, the same thing went for Purdy, like second year quarterback and there's just all this great talent around him. With the Green Bay Packers, if you start adding it up, like where would you put their roster if you start adding it up? Because it's not Minnesota. It's not Philly. It's not Detroit. I don't think it's the Rams. Like after that, maybe somewhere in that range. Yeah, probably. I mean, well, when I don't get the league this year,

I feel like the AFC is easier to pin down than the NFC. Oh, yeah. The AFC is easy. I mean, until somebody beats Kansas City, what are we even doing? I mean, Kansas City's got this number five of the last six years. They've been to the AFC title game, seven straight years. I mean, they're a bad half of football against Cincinnati

from going for the seven peat in the AFC. I mean, we're a bad half. half a football away from them going for a seventh straight Super Bowl appearance this year. Buffalo is terrific, Baltimore's terrific. Those are the only two teams for any shot in hell beating. I know there's been a lot of like, oh, Denver. I'm sorry. And I, by the way, I have been a defender of the Broncos.

I think they're a playoff team. But Bo Nix is not beating any of those three guys in a playoff game. If he does, I will give him all the credit in the world. I'd be stunned. The NFC feels a hell of a lot more open. The Eagles are awesome. also lost half their defense. And I wonder with them, I mean, look, Barclay's had an injury checkered career. If he misses four to six weeks, that changes a whole lot of things about

that football teams. You're running back. Guys could hurt. Washington is interesting, but you also do wonder, like, is that roster good enough, especially with everything going on with McLaren? The Bucks are the only team in the South that I have any respect for. The Rams are the only team in the West I have any respect for. I know some people like the Niners. The Niners are already have about 37 guys on I are. And then, look, the North is loaded. I was just up in Detroit. I watched in practice with the Texans. I think Detroit's still really, really good. I think they're really good. I think Minnesota can challenge them. I don't think Green Bay can. I was in Chicago a week ago and got blasted to the hill by every bearish fan on Earth because

I wrote that their offense looked like crap that day. Their offense looked like crap that that. I hate to offend them, but like, they had seven false starts in a practice. I'm sorry, learn how to count. What do you want me to tell you? Now, four of them were by the first team, but four fall starts in a practice with no noise is pretty brutal. And Braxton Jones is just getting annihilated by Joy Bosa. My first thought, I'm covering the Bears Vikings game week one for us I. My first thought was if I was Brian Flores, I would put Jonathan Granard over Braxton Jones and make sure they get a one-on-one

the entire. And here it comes. Good luck. I have no idea how they block it. So, yeah, I mean, look, I think Minnesota is a top five team in the NFC, and I don't think there's a huge gap. Like, I think if McCarthy's good, they're really intriguing. Whereas in the

AFC, I see it as like the Chiefs, a small gap, the Bills and the Ravens, and then there's just a gulf of like, okay, somebody's going to be a sacks. official land, the divisional round gets smoked. But it's going to be two of those three teams in the NFC championship game. Whereas in the NFC, you can tell me at five, six teams

that could be in the NFC championship game and have like a real shot to win. Okay, let me ask you about kind of Detroit and Chicago at the same time. This offseason, there's been a lot of, I think, questions raised about both teams. So with Detroit, how much is losing the coordinators,

how much is losing Frank Reg now and the overhauling of the offensive line, which I think is, is pretty darn big. And then in Chicago, this revamping, this rebuilding of Caleb Williams, you know how they talk about tearing someone down

and then building back up? It sounds like Ben Johnson has gone really hard on that first part of tearing down Caleb Williams. Which one of those two teams should be more worried about the red flags that we have heard and seen in the offseason? Chicago, because they're not as talented as Detroit.

And Caleb Williams last year, I hate to say this because I am literally a national media member. That's my job. But the national media, I think sometimes just doesn't pay attention to these teams individually enough. I feel like when I'm watching games on Sunday, I will sit there and watch. I don't do Red Zone because you can't actually watch a game and know what the hell is going on and you're watching on a Red Zone. So I will sit there and watch, you know, 1 o'clock.

game, four o'clock games, Sunday night game. Obviously, I'm watching Thursday, Monday night. And then, like, on Monday, a lot of times, I will sit there and I will go through and watch, you know, five, six games on NFL plus. And God bless, whoever came up to the condensed version of those games, and you could just watch them in 40 minutes, right? Now, I'm not going to see here online to any audience member out there who's like, you watched Saints Panthers Week 14? No, no, bro. I, no, I got two kids in a wife. Like, no.

I didn't. But any meaningful game, and if I'm going to write about it, if I wrote about a guy in the same, yeah, I will. I'll sit down and watch it. Like, Caleb Williams last year, there is this box score like, well, you know, I threw 20 touchdowns. And you only had six picks. It's like, look, I'm not saying he wasn't good. He was fine. He also has 68 sacks. If you go back and watch those sacks, yes, their offensive line was terrible. It was awful. 30 of those sacks are him just standing there. Like, at some point, bro, you got to unload the football. And watching that joint practice, if I had one complaint about Williams in that practice, there were times, it's like, that ball's got to come out now. It can't, yeah, you're not live right now, so you're not going to get hit, so you can sit there and play it out for four seconds. The average dropback time the quarterback has in the pocket per snap in the NFL is 2.3 seconds. And it sounds like a ridiculous thing to say, if you're back there for three seconds, you're dead. like two the NFL 2.3 to 3 is a lifetime that is the difference between the ball being out on time that is also a difference between the receiver turned around to get ready to catch the ball and now so did that corner and that guy's driving on the ball and so watching them on that Friday I thought the bear's defense played very well against the bills I thought offensively I love it dunes day I think he's going to be terrific but Williams is still it feels like he's still thinking through it now I know in the pre-season game that

he beat the bill's backup's 30-0-0, everybody went nuts. He was like 6 of 10. I mean, it was fine. Ben Johnson told us that they was completing 55% of his passes in training camp. So I will say this with the Lions. I'm not that worried about them offensively. Defensively, I feel like it's hit and miss. Hutchinson's unbelievable, but is Marcus Davenport going to do anything?

I don't know. The secondary Brian Branch is awesome, but do the corners hold up? Ragnow retiring is enormous. I talked to Jemair Gibbs after practice, and I asked him, like, what's the biggest thing right now for the offense? Is it the coordinator? Is it the line? He's like, it's the camaraderie of the line. It's new guys in new places. Their pass blocking against Houston was excellent. They also could not run for a foot inside. So it seems like the pass blocking is ahead of the run blocking for them right now. But I do think the interior, that is a big deal. Like when you lose an all pro center and then you have a rookie guard and a second year guard,

agony that's a that's a lot that's a huge their tackles are awesome you know i mean graham glasgow is a good player but i think it's going to be a little bit of a work in progress and they have a quarterback who's a statue i mean it's not like golf is going to be running around a lot so i i would say the bear should be more concerned but i do think the lions there are more questions with the lions this year than there have been the last couple years i completely agree with that statement for sure because their bread and butter has all started with this system that is rooted in the offensive line. And the tie-in here is also that every offensive coordinator can look way smarter when their offensive line is great. I mean, that is just fact of the matter that you can do

whatever you want as an offense. You can run long developing routes. You can run a lot of play actions and things like that that require the quarterback to turn his back to the defense because you know they're going to be able to block it up. And also, you can tie the run to the path. And also, you can tie the run to the pass really well if you're averaging five and a half yards of carry with Jamir Gibbs. And it all kind of started with that dude in the center, Frank Ragnow. And you can't overstate. I think he was the best center in the NFL top top two, best in the NFC. I didn't see as much Kansas City on a week-to-week basis as I saw of the NFC North and Frank Regnow over the years. But I mean, it's it's there, right? One, two, one, two, three, whatever you want to put it.

It's terrific. And then you go to lack of experience. or someone playing out a position or whatever and then it's a sixth round pick and it's another draft pick and those transitions even with donovan jackson we've been talking about that transition from college the NFL is super hard it often takes multiple years to really get it and you're banking a lot of your offense on that but i agree with you the biggest concern is 55% in training camp i mean just for context j jay mccarthy completed 70% of his passes throughout training camp this year. And we talked about his accuracy at times, like 55% is just not executing an offense at all. You are in practice. So I think that they should be more concerned because, you know,

with Anthony Richardson, with Justin Fields, with a lot of the great athletes, it either clicks or it doesn't, like right now, right? Josh Allen gets to year two, gets his team to the playoffs. Lamar Jackson, what year two wins the MVP? Like it doesn't, it usually doesn't take eight years to present itself whether someone can really play or not. It's also, too, like, I think Caleb Williams is going to be in the NFL for a long time, but I just, like, right now, right now, he's a guy. It doesn't mean he won't get better, but right, and that was kind of my point to a lot of very, very irate, bearish fans.

Listen, what do you want me to tell you? He's Mahomes? He's not. Like, right now, he's an average NFL quarterback. That doesn't mean that he can't prove. It doesn't mean that maybe by the end of the year or Ben John, maybe by the middle of the Maybe he looks like, okay, hey, the light came on, and he looks great, and he's going to be a top quarter of the league type of quarterback. But right now, he makes some nice throws, and there are some other times, I'm like, man, you got to make that play.

And like, I said this earlier about McCarthy, and it's true with Caleb Williams, watching him, and I was at OTAs with them, too, so I've actually seen him twice this year, watching him. And I've sat there at times and talked to former NFL players watching him. there is a sense that like hey man there's a seven yard pass to a tight end to check that it's right in front of your face that ball's got to be out now you can't see that guy

I'll come back to that guy this isn't shopping at the gap we're like well you know I like these pants but let me go see these other pants first go back get these men you're dead by the time you go back to get those other pants like it's over okay you're you've now

you've lost eight yards So I think sometimes that's the maturity of a young player understand. I think it's one of the reasons Bonix was so successful last year. It's Trump Peyton. And Sean Payton's like, look, man, make this throw. Just do that. You know?

I think Drake May is going to be awesome this year with Josh McDaniels because Josh McDaniels, a terrible head coach, is a good coordinator, and he will say, Drake, that guy. And that's where the ball is going to go. And if Caleb Williams succeeds, it'll be because Ben Johnson is able to simplify this for him because that's what all great coaches do for quarterback. I mean, listen, that might sound like a knock-a-kill. Patrick Mahomes, his life is made easier by Andy Reid, who goes, hey, Pat, you know, he's going to be wide open for nine yards, Xavier Worthy, throw it to him, okay? The difference is then

Mahomes can take a play that's not working and just pivot off his back foot and throw the thing 35 yards in the corner of the end. That's what makes you jump from a good player to a phenomenal That's what Alan can do. Lamar can do. But Ben Johnson's job is to get the best side of Caleb Williams, and that starts with, hey, listen, Caleb, I'm going to make your job easier. I was going to make your job much, much easier.

And you just execute that. And then you make the highlight real throw, and you turn, you know, water into line. But it starts with a base of just, if there are 20 easy throws in a game, I'm going 19 of 20. I am just going to boom, boom, boom, boom. And that's easy,

money, and then you build off the rest of it. Right. And I don't think he's ever played quarterback like that before, which makes me pretty skeptical about that. To me, the bears just have to prove it before you put them anywhere else except for fourth place. Now, that's my final question for you, though, Matt, if you agree with that. And what's your, what's your order then for the NFC North at the end of the year? How do you think it's going to play out? So here's what I feel strongly about. I feel like Green Bay's third and Chicago's fourth. that is that is i think green bay like i said they might even be in a playoff team but i think

they're they're right on that like nine to ten wins like right in that range um i feel like they're the kind of team that like the the bounce of the ball is going to determine a lot of like whether they went eight whether they went ten the detroit minnesota things we saw last year came right down to it um i think i'm like pretty confident i think i picked minnesota to win the division in our us on predictions so So I am a big believer in O'Connell. I just think he's a great coach. And I think that he is the perfect coach for JJ McCarthy.

And when I've seen McCarthy, as you point out, the day I saw him this year, it was like you barely saw him play. But I saw him last year, and I remember walking out of there. I'd be honest with you, when they drafted him, I was kind of so, so on. Like, okay, we'll see what happens. You know, in Michigan, he wasn't asked to do a whole hell of a lot compared to some other guys. And then I watched him in that practice. I was like, I can throw the ball.

That guy is just gunny. And I was talking to people with the Vikings. this guy like this guy can really play um and i know this is a stupid thing i hate when people say this but it's true like people are like all the other high on him in the building it's like yeah well i mean of course they're not going to come out and beg you know we think this guy stinks like don't tell anybody even you know but there's a genuine like when i've talked to people high up with the vikis there is a genuine feeling of hate no he's he's going to be really good we're really really into what we've seen so far so i'm going to take a leap of faith and i'm

to pick the Vikings to win the division. I just think I wonder with the Lions, I think the coordinator thing is a big deal with them because, you know, like if the Vikings were to lose their offensive coordinator, their coordinators are McConnell, right? Like, to say, I always said about like Andy Reed. If the cheese lose Matt and Aggie, who cares? Andy Reed's running the offense. Now, if they don't lose spags, it's a different deal. That matters. The Lions have a coach, I think the world, the Dan Campbell, but he is not a former offensive or defense. defensive coordinator. Like, those coordinators really did run those sides of the football.

John Morton has been a coordinator once with the Jets. It was a disaster, and Kelvin Shepard's never been a quarter. It's like, I just, I wonder if that upheaval takes some time to figure out. Alene McNeil is going to be out for a while. They've already lost some guys, you know, Raid Strauss out for the year. I just, I think Detroit is very good. And I think they and Minnesota are both definite playoff teams in my eyes. But I'll take the Vikings to win the division.

believe in McCarthy and O'Connell. I think the argument is sound and I think that the entire plan was to build up a roster and coaching staff and weapons and a running game and an offensive line, all those things to surround McCarthy to give them the best chance. And I think that they've done that. The receiver thing was kind of unfortunate breaks with Jordan Addison getting suspended. It's three games, though. It's not the entire season or something. And that gives them a shot. And also with Detroit, I just don't know how many teams that were not quarterbacked by Peyton Manning or Tom Brady stayed at that high of a level for how long. Like eventually you will have a stepback year, right? If you have Mahomes, you can do it.

But even Mahomes sometimes is not winning, you know, 16 games a season. So Matt, Matt Verde Ram, great to see a man out at camp as always. And well, if they're first in the division, maybe we'll, you know, catch up here in Minnesota again. make sure you read his work at Sports Illustrated and on Twitter the last name is V-E-R-D-E-R-A-M-E is how it is spelled on Twitter it'll pop up if you start typing a couple of V's and a couple of R's in there yeah great great stuff as always Matt thanks for coming on buddy appreciate it you got it anytime