Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Can the Vikings beat the Lions with J.J. McCarthy under center?

Episode Date: November 1, 2025

Andrew Krammer of the Minnesota Star Tribune joins the show to preview and breakdown the Vikings-Lions Week 9 clash. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider presented by Fanduil. Matthew Collar here, as always, and we will get to my hardcore breakdown with Andrew Kramer, the Star Tribune in just one second, but want to give you the official injury report before we get into that conversation. So Christian Derisaw and Brian O'Neill, both questionable. That will be something to watch. time before the game. We know the struggles that the Vikings have had with backup tackles in there so far this year. So they will be hoping for a full game out of

Derisaw and O'Neill and they'll need it considering the defensive line of the Detroit Lions. Andrew Van Ginkle also questionable and a bit of a surprise one. Josh Mattelis showed up as questionable on the injury report today. In terms of players who are out, Josh Oliver, C.J. Ham and Jeff Okuda will not play in this game. As far as JJ McCarthy, a full and complete week of practice the first time since early

September that that has happened. And Kevin O'Connell said that JJ looked like himself. So there you go. Ready to start against Detroit, the reset button being hit on this season for the young quarterback. All right, let's go back to TCO Performance

Center where myself and Andrew Kramer dove deep into these two teams in the battle that is to with the Vikings and the Lions. Thanks for watching. Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fanduel, Matthew Collar here, along with Andrew Kramer of the Star Tribune

for our weekly hardcore breakdown of Vikings and Detroit Lions. Let's start with the bigger picture here of these two franchises, Andrew. It's very interesting how much Detroit has had the number of Kevin O'Connell and the Vikings, and that really has been kind of regardless of what either two teams' records have been. Why do we think that is,

and do we think that that will change now that there are two new coordinators for the Detroit Lions? Yeah, and I think it coincides, obviously, with the incoming of guys like Penae Sewell. I'm on Ross St. Brown. I mean, the rise of Detroit winning this matchup is them getting out of the doldrums

of being the Matt Patricia-led lions that had bad rosters and seemed to be poorly coached, and it's the opposite. with these guys. Even with John Morton taking over the offense and Kelvin Shepard taking over the defense, Vikings players are still saying this is the exact same group. The core of both sides of the ball remains pretty much intact. Therefore, they're doing a lot of the same stuff. There's small little intricacies and nuances that are different about this Lions team, but by and large, they're still the same machine that has been atop the NFC North now for some time. And as you

mentioned, five straight losses to Detroit. Some of them have been close, but they have not won in this building since 2020. They haven't won at Ford Field when fans were there since 2019 because obviously 2020 they didn't have the crowds. So Matt, this is incredibly tough and I think it has to do the separation has to do largely with just these rosters, how these teams have been formed, and Detroit obviously was built to last for now. Yeah. And I also think that when it comes to the quarterback that the Detroit Lions have, and we're going to get into J.J. McCarthy and all that very soon. But the quarterback that they have is, sort of perfectly built for beating a Brian Flores defense, which is played into a lot of this,

which is, well, Ed Donatel's defense, everyone beat, and that didn't matter. But when it came to Flores' defense, we've often been surprised that, oh, wow, you know, Detroit, it was able to move the ball and able to make plays against them and get it to their playmakers. And I think that when you have a quarterback who can sort through all of the noise, all of the different rushers, all of the different coverage looks because he has so much experience, that gives a distinct advantage just off the jump of these two teams are playing together, but that quarterback is really good at it. But let's get into that matchup, golf versus this defense in a bit, because J.J. McCarthy is returning.

And I asked West Phillips just a couple of minutes ago about designing an offense around J.J. McCarthy. And the answer was a little bit of yes and a little bit of no. He said, well, you know, we know from training camp and from being around. around him, what we think that he can do pretty well, but we also think that the best thing for a quarterback is an open wide receiver. What do you think of that philosophy? Because I feel like the head coach shares that idea that they're not going to just set up an offense purely for, hey, these are the five concepts that J.J. McCarthy likes, and we're just going to do them over and over and over again. It really is, we believe this offense works and gets receivers

open so that's how we're going to run it and I think over the years the results have been sometimes that really works for the quarterback and sometimes maybe not as much well that's why this offense is so difficult and we've talked about this of why this offense is so difficult for quarterbacks to run sometimes especially young ones coming in are inexperienced because you're seeing that a lot is put on their plate multiple play calls in the huddle getting up to the line getting into the perfect call I'm trying to remember the phrase that Kevin O'Connell uses all the time for that, but basically just the perfect call against the defense that is presenting itself before the snap. And so with McCarthy and them trying to run that, they're not going to put

training wheels on them. I think they respect NFL defense is enough to know that if you go out through with five basic concepts that you say, this is J.J. McCarthy, this is what he likes to do. He succeeded in practice. Teams eventually are going to catch on. It's about how you're building the foundation of the quarterback for lasting success. We talk about Detroit being built to last. They need this quarterback to last through just five games of microwave success when really that'll catch up to you if you only do these things and you're not pushing yourself and you're not trying to get better at the things you're not good at. I think you also asked about the tempo of his throws. Like that's perfect examples of like if you're only okay with him firing over crossing routes or curl routes or whatever, he's not going to grow at the throws, the corners that he has to layer and the different intermediate routes that they like to hit in tempo to get guys catching and running with the football. stuff that we haven't seen them do a ton this year successfully because of how inconsistent the quarterback play has been.

So to me, I just think it's about the complexity of their systems, how they think quarterbacking needs to last in the NFL, and how with a young quarterback especially, I remember Wes said this too earlier in the year. He's like, this isn't a guy who can walk in and be like, I'm only comfortable with this, because he's got no experience. He can't exactly say what he wants to run in the NFL because he's had two games and really just one quarter of success in the NFL. Yeah, this is where I end up of two minds because in one way I see Jordan Love throwing a lot of play actions, a lot of bootlegs, a lot of, hey, their tight end just goes into the flat and they get him the football. And he's a fantasy star because he's got a ton of catches that took 0.5 seconds to get out of the hands of the quarterback. And hey, Jordan Love looks like an MVP candidate because he hits two or three shots down the field. Everything else is sort of manufactured for him right there. and off they go as an offense.

I felt that C.J. Stroud had a bit of the same last week where they adjusted their offense to run a lot of bootlegs and things like that that are kind of easy button stuff. We've seen play actions work for this team for sure. They can dial them up with success. But I do think there can be a throttling down or a building up to the point rather than just, hey, here's the entire offense. You have to run it. You should know it by now because you've been on this team long enough. It's like, well, he hasn't really done the reps. So I think that maybe building up to the point of knowing all that makes sense to me.

And at the same time, you have 10 games to figure out what you're going to do as a franchise at the quarterback position. You can't just be like, oh, let's run a bunch of screens and play actions and have him complete 70% of his passes in sort of a trumped up version of this thing that's, as you said, not going to last. Like, you need to see if he's going to fit what your head coach wants to do. Yeah, and that's exactly what I was getting at. And I still think they've hit some easy button stuff. And Wes, your question said today of, like, the best way he's always personally felt you can help a quarterback is making number one wide open. And they try to do that as often as possible. Some of that, though, involves difficulty getting to the play.

You know, that involves the headiness at the line of scrimmage, involves the stuff that seems so sped up for McCarthy in those first two games where he's just hurrying through everything and even his dropbacks and just the reeds. And once you got into the play, all that stuff sped up. too. So for me, I want to see them get his confidence, get him settled down, maybe the easy button stuff, whether it's the motioning Jefferson into the backfield and leaking him out into the flat like they would do with a Hawkinson or a tight end at times too. This offense, though, has been about pushing the ball down field, which I think changes the calculus a little bit when you compare it to Jordan Love and Matt LaFleur. That offense in Green Bay has often been horizontal. Like what they do with it has been very impressive. Even when Rogers was there, they would do

multiple play action fakes horizontally to spread out your pass to rush when Zimmer had it cooking back in 2018, 19, and it would slow you down to the point where Rogers somehow had five, six seconds without even moving off his spot. They can do that with LaFleur. This offense was better or worse fit for Kirk Cousins to push the ball downfield into tight windows. Sam Darnold, a better version. Somebody could really push the ball downfield and connect. JJ's just not there yet with his touch, with his experience, at least from what we've seen so far. And Carson, obviously, sitting in the pocket just didn't have the decision making, the kind of, didn't seem to find the rhythm with that kind of stuff, which and with the offensive line, Matt, as we know, they needed to get the ball out quickly. And I think with McCarthy, that's still going to be the focus. Yeah, and I also think from Carson's perspective, when you look at the accumulation of all of his games, he was, I think, the ninth fastest in terms of snap to release and still got sacked all the time. Like, that's how fast some of the pressures were coming with the backup linemen, and that happened to J.J. McCarthy against the Atlanta

falcons too. Now it's on both quarterbacks to get rid of the football like pressures and sacks are quarterback stats as much as they are offensive line stats and it's never been a wence strength to get rid of the ball. I think he was sacked 55 times one year or something in that ballpark with Philadelphia. I think that's not who he's ever been and that showed up with the backup lineman having Derisaw back were still up in the air about as we record this on Brian O'Neill and whether he will be back and how close to 100%. But at least the offensive line should be improved, though there have been other times we've gone into games thinking that

and then it changes with injuries. So they have to be prepared for the fact that McCarthy might have to get the ball out quickly. But everything is based, it looks to me, and all they've spoken to us about it and given us great detail about it is that guys are coming out of their breaks and the ball needs to be in the air already. That is fundamentally a thing.

that if you can do it, and Darnold was brilliant at this, and whence at times we saw it, and this is what McCarthy, I think, was referring to, is being able to guide the ball into spots in a timely fashion where Jefferson can run into it out of his break.

I mean, that just goes along with a lot of reps, and I think that what's hard here, and Wes went into detail himself about, well, we rep this stuff and we've got all these drills and everything else, but it's so much harder at Ford Field with Aidan Hutchinson coming to rip your head off and beat you with it,

than it is to throw over a net. And I think that's the thing that we're going to be looking for here is how much improvement can be made from where they were in week two, which we almost have to throw out at this point. But how much can they do the things that this offense fundamentally needs to do to succeed with a quarterback that doesn't have many real reps? Folks, are you overwhelmed by the number of different options for hair loss? Are you exhausted by looking around?

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you go back to the Chargers game and many reasons why they lose the game the way they did. But the opening third and one where Derwin James comes screaming off the edge, that was a play were speaking of Jefferson in the backfield, they were trying to build off a deep shot off of something they had done weeks prior against the Browns, where they sent him into the flat, Jefferson on a third and one, boom, easy completion. This time they try to set up this big play action shot off the opposite side where Jordan Mason just misses Derwin James on the pass protection. Like Mason, supposed to be a starting caliber back for you, needs to make

that block. And whether that's Carson Wenz, Kirk Cousins, or J.J. McCarthy back there, that quarterback is going to have no shot with Derwin James or if it's Kirby Joseph or who whoever running at you in that spot. Whether it's the pass blocking, the penalties, the complete lack of a run game at times, the coach getting away from it, all these things. They wanted to set this up for the quarterback. Remember the quote in the off season was like,

if we could just have the quarterback play quarterback for like 10 to 12 snaps, meaning like they're so good around him that he's only going to get into tough third downs or really tough spots where he needs to truly decipher a defense and make a pinpoint accurate tight window throw 10 to 12 times. times. It feels like he's playing quarterback or Carson Wentz or whomever's back there every single down because of how just disjointed this offense has been around that position. Right. And then the defense not being what it's supposed to be. You're asking the quarterback to save you rather than manage you through these things. But I think that that third and one is a great example of just

what this offense is fundamentally, which is the plays work and the receivers get open. And if you have the quarterback and the players who can execute all of that, then it's going to be great. And we've seen it be great at times with Kirk. And we've seen it be great for an entire season with Sam Darnold outside of against Detroit and Los Angeles, but basically the entire year and Jacksonville. But I mean, you're talking a full season, 14 wins, 4,000 yards, 35 touchdowns for a quarterback who could execute those things and the players with the offensive line. It was banged up, but at least it was the same offensive line every week. And when you run a play like that where a handoff is kind of just right there, like third and one, Jordan Mason, that's what you got him for.

And I think that that is the stubbornness of Kevin O'Connell of, I drew you up a great play, and you need to execute it because that play should work. And I felt the same way against Atlanta several times. I mean, in the goal line, you get the ball, it's first and goal, you trade it for Jordan Mason, what is he here for? And yeah, I know you got some backup linemen, but that's what the guy's here for is that it doesn't have to be. perfect and you could just run into the end zone and it's well we're going to run a little play where the quarterback has to kind of fake a toss and then find somebody and yes he should be able to do it but he's also a new quarterback and are you asking a little too much i i don't know how to strike that balance perfectly because a lot of times when it doesn't go well we just say they did everything wrong

and if they had executed it it's a wide open touchdown and we're like great play that's football but I do think that you have to keep in mind like what you have here on the field and not just sort of on the napkin, this play should work. Yeah, and I mean, go back to like 2023. Last time they had these quarterbacking changes or at least issues as much as they have, Josh Dobbs, it works so well when it is rudimentary. It is simple. It is just, I'm going to tell you in your ear in 15 seconds where to go with the football, please just do it. And it works. And then suddenly when they get him into a rhythm of the offense and,

try to put so much on his plate, you're the past or not, you can handle this. It didn't work out so well. So there is, I think there is a fair critique of maybe them having too high of expectations at times for what their personnel is and what they're asking him to do, because this coaching staff on both sides does not try to be simple in any sense of the word. Right. So that means to me that there might be a real curve here for J.J. McCarthy, just like we saw in the first two weeks. And starting against this defense, if this was Matt Patricia's defense. If this was a couple years ago, I'd be like, this is perfect. Even if it was Aaron Glens, I might have said, well, you can at least understand what you're seeing pre-snap,

even if they have good players. I feel very differently about facing Kelvin Shepard. I think that he has added a lot of twists to this defense, the way that they rush, the way that they mix up some coverages. But there will be opportunities for man-to-man coverage. We know that one-on-ones and chances to make plays for Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison. What it comes down to me is a lame McNeil and whether he is getting pressure up the middle, if it's Blake Brandel's still starting, which it kind of sounds like it's going to be. And I mean, Aidan Hutchinson, of course, is going to get pressures and they're going to blitz and so forth.

But if they can't stop the interior guys, Reeder and McNeil, it's going to look like Philadelphia, where you have several offensive linemen having totally fine days. and yet your quarterback is still under pressure constantly because they are attacking the middle over and over again. And if I'm young J.J. McCarthy, the last thing I want is this 300-pound dude who's big and fast and dangerous running right at my face. I think that makes quarterbacks incredibly uncomfortable. Yeah, a quarterback who's got an injury history already

as long as his years on earth, it would seem. And then as well, too, he mentioned McNeil Hutchinson. It's going to be tough because this lion's front, They don't have to blitz all the time. They don't necessarily do it, but they can get after you with a four-man rush and be aggressive. And they play aggressive coverage on the outsides to try and buy as many seconds as possible for that rush. And it's akin to the Eagles game. The Eagles game where Jalen Carter's hitting Carson Wentz, forcing the pick six or leading into the pick six with that hit.

Like those are the kind of plays that, as you said, can cripple quarterbacks, their psyche. If they hit them too early, especially a young quarterback like McCarthy, you do see those things spiral. at times in terms of the clock speeding up. A kid who hasn't been out there since September 14th or whenever it was, they played the Falcons. I do think the rhythm he gets into how they start the game, how clean they keep him to start the game is going to be so critical because you cannot wait until the fourth quarter again to get going

like they did on their last divisional road game. So I understand fully what we're talking about with running the entire offense and so forth, but the first 15 plays, as many gimmicks as you need to make sure that ball needs to be out, right? And the gimmick plays or the easy button plays have worked for this team. They get a 40-yard gain to Justin Jefferson on a play where he just turns and is thrown the football. And sometimes it doesn't have to be that complicated. Now, if you get into the game flow and you're losing and you're trying to come back and get an explosive play, like I get it.

But from the beginning of the game, that's where you can use all of that stuff and predeterminate when it is zero to zero. So don't let Reader, don't like McNeil, don't let Hutchinson get into that, hey, I'm beating my guy. I can get in the backfield, pinning the ears back. They cause them some problems early on. It feels like this team has never needed a 12-play, eight-minute drive or whatever, more than the first drive against Detroit. How are you feeling about their secondary? Terry and Arnold has been a pretty poor player. He is supposed to come back.

We'll see how much they roll with him. He has not taken the step that they expected. Bryant Branch is as good as they come. Also might punch you after the game. So I wouldn't want to face him for multiple reasons. But I think that the injuries that they had, the Vikings are facing them a little bit at the wrong time because a lot of those guys that were gone are coming back.

Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think this is still a tough group. When you see how they played against Tampa Bay last week against Egbuka, against Mike Evans when he was out there, they shut him down. They really got after Baker, Mayfield and played tight coverage in ways that kind of tricked, it seemed to trick Mayfield before the snap in terms of revolving things and kind of shifting things post-snap.

Like those are all things that veteran secondaries that have been together as long as Detroit has and their defense as a whole can do. And that's something the Vikings players have been talking about this week too, not just with the Lions offense, but just because they switched over to Shepard who's bringing some different elements to it, they still have a lot of the base stuff that they want to do, which allows them to be at more of a graduate level. course for the defense as opposed to up new coordinator, new system, need to start a base one like Brian Flores in 2023. Flores and the Vikings are going through their own kind of evolution here as

they changed the roster so much. But this Lions team has not changed that much. And I think that's why you can see them pick up year after year and still at least be effective. And Anzolone is great underneath. And some of the Hawkinson, Aaron Jones, kind of underneath stuff they're going to want to get going. Remember when Anzolone came back from a broken forearm last year and immediately made a huge difference in that season ending loss, a regular season finale loss to Detroit. So this is a very tough group. The issue with the Vikings here, among many, is that they typically get a lot of defensive pass interference yards against this group, against many groups they do. They're not getting as many this year, and that goes back to the quarterback play. It goes back to not taking,

maybe not trusting as much or taking as many chances downfield, maybe not having the time to bought to throw downfield as much and draw those penalties. Like this is a group you can really take advantage of in that front, and they're not taking advantage of anybody like they used to with that. Right. You know that they're going to be aggressive. That's how their coach. That hasn't changed from Aaron Glenn. But the ball has to be in the air toward the receiver and not the quarterback getting sacked in the backfield has been such the case, really through Kevin O'Connell's entire time here. Sacks have been an issue. But especially when it is with either less experienced or quarterbacks who have a history of that. When it comes to T.J. Hawkinson,

Let's talk about him before we move over to the other side of the ball. T.J. I think tight ends are often a product of what is happening with the offense. And I remember saying after the Cincinnati game that you could sort of tell about the overall health of the Vikings offense when T.J. Hawkinson is getting the football. And, you know, fans like to say he's cooked and chopped is a word people are using for someone who's not good or whatever. I just don't really know what to say about T.J. Hawkinson for this year. I think it's clear that it has not been the same since the ACL injury happened last year. And at the same time, the quarterback play just makes everything look worse. It makes the linemen look worse. It makes the receivers look worse. It makes the tight end look worse. And I would like to at least see it with J.J. McCarthy for five, six, seven games before I make more of a determination there on what T.J. Hawkinson is. is because a lot of folks are, you know, trade him, get rid of him, cut him. Can we see this the way it was supposed to be designed first? That's where I stand with Hawkinson, but how about you? Yeah, I think it's been a tough go for him just in terms of opportunity. Now, yeah, he was not

the same player at the back half of last year. I don't know if he's had much opportunity to show that he's the same player this year. There have been some moments that are tough for him, but he's had to block more. He's not getting the ball as much. Their volume, just in terms of their passing, has been down, so all the opportunities outside of Justin Jeffersons have suffered. So I think with DJ, when I think of his peak and what he should be, and you mentioned, what is it supposed to look like? Think of 2022 shortly after, or was it, 2023, after he had arrived, obviously, when they were without Jefferson, he has that game against the New Orleans Saints.

23, yeah. Would have been New Orleans. Yeah, so he had like 12 catches or some nine cat came or what it was. It was a record for a first half for a tight end. Like he was in Jefferson's position. He was the X. He was split out. They were designing plays for him as if he were Justin Jefferson.

Like, that's the stuff he can do. That's why you paid him like a top tight end or at the time, the top tight end in the league. And we're not seeing that stuff not only from him when he gets his limited opportunities, but we're not even seeing coaches want to put him in those roles very much. How much of that is the offensive line? How much of that is physically what they think he can or can't do at this point? I don't know. But I do think he's grown as a blocker.

And I do think that that has helped them. I think that should not be overlooked by Vikings fans. And they're blocking issues up front probably make fans to see him as part of the problem when really he hasn't been. They've had many issues up front that are not T.J. Hawkinson. And I think that part of his game deserves some credit. But it's not why you pay a guy 20 plus million a year. 212.5 yards for J.J. McCarthy on Fandul is his over under. Where would you go with that?

I would go under just because I need to see it. And, you know, I'm not a betting man, but I just think you need to see it. And I'm more conservative, obviously, in turn, because I'm not a betting man. So I would think that the Vikings in this one are going to struggle. I think they're going to try to get the ball, as we said, out of his hands quickly. I think O'Connell is going to try to establish the run early on. We'll see how successful that is or isn't. But this Vikings' offense has struggled to produce through the air consistently,

especially in the limited time they've had JJ. And so I think this is too tall of a task. me to say yeah he's going to go over 220 whatever it was uh 212 0.2 12 okay i still go on but i i think i would go over just from the standpoint of no matter what's happening they're going to keep running pass plays for j j mccarthy yeah like no matter what the score is and we heard that they think they can come back from down 34 to 10 in the fourth quarter the other day and that's why wence was still in like they're going if if you're still pushing the pass button for wence at 34 to 10 in the fourth quarter when the guy has broken all of the left side of his body,

then you're going to keep throwing it for J.J. McCarthy regardless. So I think they're going to throw a lot of passes. Does that mean it's efficient? That we're going to have to find out. But I would tend to think the answer probably will be no that the completion percentage will be 55% or somewhere in there. This is just going to take some time. Now, if he comes out and rips apart the Detroit Lions,

then this is a totally different podcast for next week. But I think, as you said, like thinking about this in a way of can there be some progress shown would be a victory in Detroit as of right now. Maybe I should have mentioned like Baker Mayfield and that Tampa Bay offense just struggled against this lion's defense. Baker Mayfield, who has looked pretty good. Right. Exactly. At Ford Field, which has suddenly become a really difficult place to play. Let's go over to the other side of it. Jared Goff has been a nightmare for Brian Flores. We talked to Brian Flores today and I would just say that we didn't get any answers that we can

grip onto, that we could bring back to you and say, ah, this is what's happened. The defensive coordinator has revealed it to us, and look, that he doesn't have to. But I didn't come away with any more answers of what's been going on. And I think that they're just kind of too obvious that many players are playing well below what we would have expected. And some of the guys that they desperately needed to be good, Theo Jackson, Isaiah Rogers, just haven't been. Now, Jared Gough, though, has really had the keys to this thing in general, along with a number of other good quarterbacks. Is your theory that when you play Steph Curry, he makes a bunch of threes

and there's nothing you could do? Because that's kind of what Flora has said, like, well, they have a bunch of great players who made great plays. I think that you can hold Steph Curry below 60, though. So what do you think it is about good quarterbacks and receivers that have just shredded this defense really historically? over the last couple years. The Vikings, right, like to be a check-based, pressure-based system that what's the phrase? Hold the match last or hold the something last. The pen. I think it's a pen.

Thank you. The pen last. Some sort of apparatus. You want to hold something last in there. And I think that has to do with the fact that, you know, obviously they want to be in the right play call for what the offense is, much like Kevin O'Connell and his offense. Problem is these veteran quarterbacks are pretty good at deciphering, seeing what you're trying to do, and being the ones are holding the pen last. Whether it's Herbert finding wide open lanes over the middle whenever they sent their inside linebackers blitzing, or it's Jalen Hertz just being able to buy time and saying, I know you're going to send just a four-man rush, so I'm just going to dink and dunk and hide and buy time, and then boom, seven seconds later, DeBontas open. I think it has to do with that.

This is a smoke and mirrors defense, I think, kind of undermines it a little bit. I don't think that's not, you know, why they're good. They're still very good at, at, obviously out scheming opponents when they can, and that's not always going to happen. They're very good in the back end and coverage. I think Durante Jones and Brian Flores are incredible at deciphering and coming up with plans to roll and evolve their coverages and mix them up when they're actually called. Those things are all still very good. But when three players are running downfield with Quentin Johnston and Lab McCong,

he's wide open underneath, that's not a Flores issue as much as it's either Josh Mattelis or Isaiah Rogers not dropping like they're supposed to in those kind of zone techniques. like these individual issues always happen. So with Goff, he's grown so much. And I think that's the point that we need to stick to with him. The last two, three, four, whatever matchups it's been, he's just been on fire versus Flores, totally different in 2019 or 20 when he was with the Rams,

and it was the Dolphins, and Andrew Van Ginkle, who were remarking at the time of how bad Goff was under pressure. And boy, the Rams then turned around and went, we need to go get Matthew Stafford. He has grown so much and been so good at seeing these things, feeling protected, trusting his front, trusting his receivers. The chemistry that they have as an offense and the protection he can have, I think is critical, too, because Goff is not a guy while he can buy time. He's not quite like Hertz, maybe even not like Herbert in terms of running around.

So with Goff in this matchup, I think his ability to stand in the pocket, fire passes down all over the field against defenses that he is deciphering in real time at the snap very, very well. To me, that's why this particular matchup has been so tough. But I think, quarterbacks in general can kind of see through the smoke and mirrors sometimes. Well, I think that's 100% true. And with Jared Goff, by the numbers, he's still terrible when he's pressured.

But the problem is he's not pressured because he gets rid of the football. And that's why pressure is often assigned to the offensive line, but it has a lot to do with the quarterback, a lot to do with the system as well. And he just has all the answers. And I think a reason for that is because he built this offense.

It was him and Ben Johnson, building it together. So this is his. It's like he built the car and he knows, like, what gears to get it into at any given time and where everyone's going to be. And also, Flores did mention, like, these guys have played together a lot, St. Brown and Gibbs and Williams and Leporta. I mean, these players have had so much time together that they know if we see X, it's going to be that. And they've also played the Vikings a lot. So they know these different looks or the different changes that they're going to get. But I think that what so often ends up coming back to is, like, how good is your roster around a quarterback?

And Jared Goff may know where all the bones are buried to the offense, but he also knows if I got to throw a two-yard pass to Jameson Williams, it might turn into 50. If I got to throw a swing pass to Jemir Gibbs, it might turn into 50. Leporta can go down the field. Now they got another guy, Isaac Tesla, who's been good for them and can make some jump ball type catches. They just have a lot. I think there's one weakness, though, potentially for them that has not really cropped up yet this year except for week one, but I believe still exists, which is the interior of their offensive line, Christian Mahogany, Graham Glasgow, and Tate Rattlidge. It's not the same as it was with Frank Ragnow and Kevin Zytler. Ratledge has been the one that teams attack, and that's where I feel like the Vikings can give Jared Gough some problems, is if they can create pressure on the interior, which,

has just been not the same this year. The Ivan Pace blitzes aren't working. Cashman has been out. It seemed like last year what they were able to do with those big guys, Bullard and Phillips, was move bodies to create lanes for rushes. But now with the defensive tackles themselves rushing, if you're running blitzes,

it's not quite the same theory. And that's why so many things impact individual performance on defense. But I think there's a big mismatcher, at least there should be in theory between Alan, Hargrave, Jalen Redmond, who's becoming a really, really good player, and mahogany, Glasgow, and Ratledge in pass protection. There should be. They just haven't had those difference makers except for Jalen Redmond on the interior. And Ivan Pace has not played well to the point where he's lost, essentially, his starting role to Eric Wilson.

Blake Cashman, I thought, was caught out of position overrunning some split, inside split zone stuff against Kamani Bidal in L.A. like they have not played well as a whole up front but I'm fascinated to see that you mentioned the pressure packages the interior mismatches all that stuff I'm fascinated to see what Flores does from that front and how he calls this game because Jared Gough is very very good under or you say he's not good under pressure but he's good when you blitz when you send five plus I'm looking this up the other day the Vikings next four opponents all rank top five and adjusted net yards against five plus pass rushers they're all very good including Caleb Williams lately, when you were sending more pass rushers, whether or not they are actually pressured. So can Flores trust a four-man rush at this point, though? If you get, and we haven't even mentioned Van Ginkle, like if he comes back, that is huge. If he's in actually his condition is huge, because if he comes back like he did against the Bengals where it's at third downs, pass rush sometimes, but we're not going to actually have you play

the run, it's not as big. But if he comes back as an edge setter, as a physical, a really tone setter for the entire group, somebody that with Grinard can really kind of vice offenses in in ways that they're just not getting without him on the field, I think that's going to be massive. But they can otherwise can't trust their four men rush. Jonathan Allen and Javon Hargrave, who played like 40% of the snaps in L.A. and really has had his role scale down. They just have not been the guys that you paid for. And I think that's been a big difference at why this this run defense and this defense as a whole has not been what you wanted it to be. And you mentioned Flores's availability with us. I thought the most insightful thing that, that he said was, it was very brief, but he said, we are still searching for our play style and what we're going to be this year. And he said, I feel like we found it at times, but then we don't. And like that, to me, says a lot about it's week nine. And you're still trying to hunt this down for a group that has had a couple injuries, but nowhere near what the offense is has. And when you design so much to do building off of Andrew Van Ginkle's dynamic abilities,

and, I mean, keep in mind, he's one of the most valuable defensive players in the entire NFL last year. I mean, he made at least some argument for defensive player of the year with double-digit sacks, a couple of interceptions for touchdown. I mean, he was that valuable for them. And I know the touchdowns aren't always going to come. But when you can drop back in coverage more than any outside linebacker in the NFL and still get double-digit sacks and still be a good coverage linebacker, that's freaky stuff. I mean, there's not very many people who can do that. And it's pretty clear that they haven't really trusted Dallas Turner in coverage in the same way. He's not trying to emulate Van Ginkle's role, but then you don't have it. And so their most

dynamic players have been limited where Harrison Smith's not out there for the full season. Josh Mattelis then has to make up ground by playing a different role than he usually plays. And Dallas Turner was supposed to be someone who you could line up anywhere, was going to be in pass rush situations, and now it's, hey, go play 60 snaps. And that's just not what this was supposed to be. So when he says, well, we're looking for our identity, I mean, I sort of interpret that is, guys, I can't run my defense. And from watching tapeback, it doesn't look like the same as it was last year. Last year felt like you'd get to right before the snap and go, I have no idea what they're going to do. And I just think it's easier for

quarterbacks this year. And certainly when you're running the football successfully, much easier to run play actions off of that. But when you don't have a Van Ginkle, when the quarterback is not concerned about, hey, that guy could be anywhere. And he's a scary freak. I think it just sort of changes the game a lot. And the other thing is, too, that he also got some clean-up sacks where we would see Grenard gets a pressure. Quarterback tries to escape. Van Ginkle gets him.

It's kind of like against Cincinnati. I think it was Turner who got a pressure and Van Ginkle gets him. There's just not that guy who's been there to clean up when there's pressures. And we've seen so many quarterbacks get pressured and then be like, oh, okay, well, I'm in the free. Here's an easy pass completion. So I think it just speaks to how this thing can sort of tumble down. when one player is out. But just to, I mean, if you have something else on that, go ahead.

Well, I was going to say just applicable to this game and to that is the fact that this offense, excuse me, the Vikings defense has allowed offenses to be in such third manageable so often. And the Lions, if they've struggled anywhere on offense, it's been on third down. They actually rank like 22nd and third downs after ranking fourth a year ago. But everything like in L.A. or sometimes against Philly, I guess it was more L.A., but everything was third and two, third and three, third and four, the opening sequence, I think it was the opening series. There were two third and shorts for L.A.

And they just basically cat and mouse the Vikings the entire time where they got them, the Vikings decide on third and two to stay in their base personnel. They don't try to bulk up against a jumbo. One of the many jumbo looks the chargers went to. And the chargers are, all right, we'll hand it off quick, boom, easy three yards. Another third and two comes up later to the drive. Vikings are, all right, six defensive linemen. We're bulking up against you guys.

And then that was a play action shot over the top. Like just this easy kind of cat and mouse where if you're not getting them, the pin your ears back times that they just have not. not been there very frequently for this group. They still have a high sack rate, but they aren't forcing teams to throw a lot. They're not forcing them into really tough spots very often. And they have been out physicaled in the trenches, which is where you start to second guess. Did you overthink it based on a couple of games that didn't work out your way at the end of the

year with where you invested your money? I will say that I thought it was a good idea to get interior pressure, but at a big sacer has clearly cost them with the way that these games have played out. So let's talk about the potential result here. So the Vikings are eight and a half point of, what is it? Underdogs. Yeah, that's right. Underdogs.

I was trying to remember, wait a minute. This is a different year. This is not last year where they're favorite all the time. They are eight and a half point underdogs on Fanduel. Do we think that they remain close in this game? Do you predict a shocking upset? do you predict a blowout? Yeah, I think I'm done waiting for the team

to bounce back at this point. I don't know. And I've been so bad at always picking these teams, but I think the way that this matchup is McCarthy coming back after essentially a month and a half off. I have a hard time picking the Vikings as winners in this one. I don't even think they're going to cover the eight points at this point. I just think it's too tough with Detroit.

Jamir Gibbs is the guy that, like, it's too obvious, right? But he's the one we could spend the entire time talking about it. Why are they going to lose? Jamir Gibbs, all right, because he's just so incredible at what Detroit does with him, how he runs, how he can do just about anything. I've seen some stat where they're like fourth in the league in terms of rushing behind two tight ends. Well, the Vikings, as you just talked about, are really bad when offenses bulk up. Yet, Jamir, if you put him in the gun, he can be a great receipt.

Like, it just doesn't matter what you do with him. He is so incredible. And to me, it's just going to be stars winning the game for Detroit. like the Vikings have not been able to position their stars to win games for them? I will say that they cover, but they do not win. So call it a 27 to 21 type of game. I do feel like having the Thursday to the Sunday preparation will help them. And I think that J.J. McCarthy is going to show some flashes against this defense.

He does have two of the best wide receivers in the NFL. But I could see it playing out a lot like against Philadelphia, where they can move the ball at times, maybe not get in the end zone, and then they just can't stop what the other team has on offense. But because of the division element, because of the familiarity element, I will say that it's a little bit closer. And I also think that it's a kitchen sink type of game for the Vikings where you are throwing every single thing that you have at them to try to make it work for J.J. McCarthy, because I think what everybody knows is if you get blown out 38 to 3 at Ford Field, I mean, this place is going to be on 4th.

fire you want to talk about vibes we will talk about vibes if that's what happens i know we're not supposed to on this show with you andrew but uh that is something that will not be good around this building if they lose that way to detroit so i think that everybody this week understands that this season is on the brink if not already fall can you fall off a brink is that how that what is a brink i don't even know so uh but here is a chance to start a turnaround get a get a big, shocking win that everyone starts talking about, get McCarthy going, get some optimism into the building, some energy into the building as you go forward down the stretch here. But a bad loss is going to feel like, wow, this thing is not only over for the

playoffs, but you're pointing fingers, you're looking around going, how did we get to this point? It's close right now. But if you have back-to-back blowout losses, then it's really going to be there. I do think this game can be a microcosm of the season in that way, where if, let's say they lose, but McCarthy gives you some things that you feel pretty good about. Like, then you might feel okay about where this team is headed or where you're at, much like this season, where if you end up in a losing season, but you feel okay about your quarterback, you're going to feel okay. So to me, it's about McCarthy, right? Like, the defense might get shredded again, might not. They might somehow look like they did against

Cincinnati, which I would doubt. And if it's somewhere in the middle, that's fine. The defense is neither here nor there because many of these guys might not be here in the long run. It's more about the quarterback and finding that. answer. And these 10 games, you mentioned kitchen sink games. I feel like 10 straight kitchen synchings for this team. Lots of sinks. A whole house hunter's episode worth of sinks. Thank you, Andrew Kramer, Star Tribune. And thank you all for watching slash listening. And here's one thing I know that we will have a lot to discuss coming out of the game. That is for sure. The result, well, that's up to them. We'll see you guys later. Football.

Thank you. Thank you.