Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Carson Wentz undergoes surgery -- JJ McCarthy expectations vs. Detroit (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about Carson Wentz having to undergo surgery and then talks with Brian Murphy and Manny Hill about expectations for JJ McCarthy the rest of the way. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode of Purple Insider is presented by FanDuel. So we bring in Brian Murphy, Mani Hill. Brian, good evening to you. How are you? I'm doing well. Good to be here. Mani, how are we doing?

Doing pretty good. Happy Monday football. All right. Well, you guys are doing a lot better than Carson Wentz, who was sent out to die on the battlefield on Thursday, night by Kevin O'Connell and did exactly that, having surgery and out for today. So, Murph, this particular subject feels like it's up your alley to talk about your thoughts on what happened on Thursday night and then the news today of Wentz getting surgery.

Yeah, it felt like Carson Wentz needed to be protected from himself. And I don't know if he had it a lot of allies in that. It's a bit unsettling how it's played out. I'm not saying, you know, the Viking shoved him out there to die in place of Max Brozmer, but it really doesn't look good today because we could clearly tell Thursday night that he had a contraption on his shoulder that looked a lot more problematic than it did previously against Philadelphia. And just his, you know, her reactions every time he was in the pocket, getting hit, falling on it hard, coming to the sidelines. And I'm trying to kind of look back,

you know, I kind of gave up on Thursday night's game so early because it was what it was. And I didn't really even look into how Kevin O'Connell reacted to, you know, Wentz and his performance and his health. And then the news comes out today that, you know, he's having season ending surgery, which tells, you know, and then all the details coming out that he had a torn labrum. He had a dislocated shoulder, which begs the question, what was he doing on the field in the first place? Not just for his health, which, by the way, matters. Just because he's a 32-year-old refugee doesn't make him chum to throw in the water for the sharks. And also, could Max Brosmer have done something better than Carson Wentz, given the opportunity, given

Wence's health, given what we had already seen from Wence, given what we know about Wence? It raises a lot of more questions that really we don't need to be dealing with right now, because we're ready to just hand it over to McCarthy anyway, but it's kind of an ugly, sloppy handover that you know you just like Carson Wentz was never going to say take me out coach I'm done when he knows this might have been the last NFL game he's playing uh so it's not his decision and I just wonder if he was failed or uh he failed himself it just it's just a messy ending to a stopgap option that didn't pan out anyway your thoughts manny Yeah, I mean, I did unfortunately finish the entire game on Thursday.

Had nothing else better to do, really that night. Same. Although I probably could have watched some Law and Order S for you or something. I don't know. But anyway, yeah, it was, it was just ugly. And it was kind of disheartening to watch a guy out there who clearly wasn't physically right out there just wincing and pain. I mean, he got hit a lot. He got sacked five times. There was one where he he was hit and he landed directly on that left shoulder, which is the injured shoulder. And it just

looked, it looked awful. And to Murph's point, you know, you just have to kind of wonder what what the operation was in terms of putting Carson Wentz out there. I understand starting him, because if J.J. McCarthy is not fully 100%. You don't want to throw him out in that situation. And preparation on a short week makes things complicated for him. So I understand putting Carson Wentz out there because you're thinking he gives you the best chance to win. But after you watch him out there perform

and you watch him wince in pain and it's just like, what are we doing here? Is he really giving us the best chance to win when he's not physically right. And even though it's not his throwing shoulder, it's still a limb. Like it's still his arm. That's painful.

Even if you're not using that arm to throw, and it's going to impact how you're able to throw the football because you're dealing with that pain. And so you do have to kind of wonder, in hindsight now, after a 37 to 10 beat down, you have to wonder at what point should Carson and Wentz had really been removed from that game just to put Max Brosmer in just to see if he can give you a better chance. Obviously, Max doesn't have a lot of experience playing in the NFL

either, but you just have to wonder under that circumstance if Brosmer just being a healthier body would have given you a better chance to compete and maybe make things interesting. But yeah, I would say it was just really kind of disheartening to see, first of all, to see the performance overall by the team, but then to also see Carson Wentz out there really when he probably shouldn't have been. So there are two different discussions kind of in one of, hey, maybe early in the game, he looked so bad and so injured that you should have just gone to Brosmer to give yourself a better chance to even move the football. Now, that I actually do buy the explanation from Kevin O'Connell of, look, I don't really want a rookie going out there with those tackles, the way they're

getting killed. Hey, newsflash, Khalil Max, still a sick NFL player, uh, who is back to full health himself and dominating this football game. Their other guy is the second or third best at QB pressures of the NFL. Like he, you know, they've got some guys up there and the Vikings can't block them. Okay. Right. I get that.

Couldn't prepare Max Brosmer to start in two days where they just had walkthroughs. This is a really tough spot. But when you get to the end of the game and it's 31.10 and you say, send him out for two more drives. To me, that's where it's indefensible, where you cannot explain to me what you thought was going to happen in those two drives. And they didn't just call run plays. Now, if they had done that to protect Carson and they just said, hey, we're just going to run

screens and we're just going to swing past to Aaron Jones and put Xavier Scott in the game and get him a few catches or something, okay, that's fine. They were throwing down field still to Justin Jefferson down 31 to 10. and you look at those last two drives, of course, they went horribly, and he took more hits, and you go, okay, now that's where the common sense element, you get lost in the game and lose what's right in front of you, what's happening to your quarterback, and you end up making it just a miserable, miserable night. At 24 to 10, I understand still having him in, because maybe something crazy happens. It's the Chargers.

Crazier things have happened to the Chargers than blowing a 14-point lead. once it gets to 3110 and Jeff Okuda gets smoked down the sideline by Led McConkey, that's when the quarterback should come out of that football game. But let's, why don't we shift to a little bit less of a heavy subject because I've been hammering home with a sledgehammer on that subject for about an hour. So let's get to, hey, J.J. McCarthy starting this week. And you know, I really thought that was going to be all tonight. Like, hey, guys, what's in the past is in the past.

J.J. McCarthy is starting. It's a hard reset to the season. And hey, you're probably not making the playoffs, but at least it'll be interesting. So let's try to do that anyway. The Fandual question of the day today is how many points J.J. McCarthy has to score in order for the Vikings to hang with the Detroit Lions. The line moved today on Fandual from 9.5 to 8.5. So we can begin there with expectations in the very short term into just this game. J.J. McCarthy returns to play football again. Why don't we start there, MIRF, with expectations for J.J. McCarthy versus the Detroit Lions. Can you stay on the field more than 15 minutes? I mean, let's just start there and work our way up. And I'm not trying to be flippant here.

I mean, I'm trying to be obvious. I mean, there's been 25 Viking, I believe 24, 25 Vikings games played since J.G. McCarthy was drafted. He's been on the sideline for two of them. He's been active for two of them. So what are we looking for? We're looking for development. We're looking for him being able to complete a game. We're looking for him to be able to be mobile.

We're looking for him to be able to connect with his receivers. We're looking for him to be able to figure out if this offensive line is as troubled and as injury riddled and as inconsidered. and as inconsistent as it has been, what's going to be the best opportunity for me to succeed, what's going to be the best opportunity for the team to succeed, and what's going to be best for his development? I'm not sure all of those things necessarily align. So for him, I want him to look less overwhelmed,

series to series to possession, but also, you know, he's going up against arguably the best team in the NFC North, arguably one of the best teams in the NFC, perhaps the top two, three team in the NFL on the road. So there's really no more protection here. There's no more what can we do for him. It's what can JJ actually do? So I'm actually really curious to see how he's going to respond to being sidelined for six weeks. trying to build off of a very positive week one performance that included a nice

comeback, but then also try to pivot away from what we saw from the other seven quarters, which was really not NFL quarterback play. And I really think that's the laser focus Vikings fans, the front office, the coaching staff really needs to take stock of is who is he, what is he going to be able to do, and what is he showing he's able to do on a week-to-week basis? We haven't had enough of that consistently over the last 18 months. So that, to me, is the primary focus. And what he's expected to do is learn and accumulate and absorb.

And it may end up finishing with a 7 and 10, 8, 9 record that ultimately isn't where they wanted to be. but more importantly, what does McCarthy look like through the process? Folks, are you overwhelmed by the number of different options for hair loss? Are you exhausted by looking around the internet for answers and watching late night television commercials, seeing if any of the options will work for you? Well, getting your hair back doesn't have to be that complicated. If you want to be happy with your hair when you look in the mirror, then Hymns can help you get that confidence back.

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I know a little bit of tongue and cheek there as you're right, 25 games for Bo Nix and two for J.J. McCarthy. so far because of injury, but I think stay on the field in terms of have some drives. When we're talking about this defense, and it's right for folks to be ripping apart all the defensive moves, why did they sign this guy, why did they draft this guy, why did they extend that guy? But the reality is, when you have some of the worst quarterback play in the NFL throughout your season, it is hard to be a very good defense.

And we see this. How about, hey, those Cleveland Browns? With the, have you seen the roster of the Cleveland Brown's defense? They have one guy gets five sacks yesterday and they give up 30-something points. Why do you think that is? Because Dylan Gabriel is terrible and their offense is terrible. So I think that the Cleveland Brown's defense with a good offense is probably really nasty. There's a lot that's dictated through that.

So stay on the field. I mean, that's one thing that they have not been able to do. They're among the worst teams in the NFL in terms of plays per drive and time of possession. Put some drives together and let that even be a start. I don't think we need to begin with J.J. McCarthy has to be magical and turn the season around. How about we just begin with completions, moving the chains. I'm watching Jordan Love last night, tight end underneath, little quick pass to the receiver who scoots along the sideline for 10 yards. Let's just begin with that and then work our way up to something that looks more like franchise quarterback level play.

manny 100% and I think you know sustaining drives converting third downs getting off to a good start I think is going to be really important because outside of the Cincinnati Bengals game we haven't really seen this offense get off to a good start and go down the field and score a touchdown and and play with a lead this team has not gotten a chance to play with a lead and that has impacted how the defense has been able to perform so it's It's going to be important to do that, but also just from a health standpoint with J.J. McCarthy, too, can Kevin O'Connell and this offensive staff find ways to protect McCarthy in a way where he's not getting hit a lot? And, you know, he's already shown a, you know, a little bit that he can get banged up a little bit. He had the knee injury last year and then the ankle injury this year.

And he's taken a lot of sacks. the Vikings as an offense have taken a lot of sacks. I was looking up when you when you guys were talking about, uh, Bo Nix. Bo Nix has played eight games. Nine of times he's been sacked. Eight times. Wow. Wow.

Eight times. Let me follow your. Yeah. Let me follow your stat with the stat. The Vikings are the seventh most sack team since KOC took over, which all the other teams are horrible. All the other teams have horrible quarterbacks. 28 times this year.

The Vikings have taken 28 sacks this year. 19 for Wentz and nine for McCarthy, nine for McCarthy in two games. Right. So that's, you know, and, and look, some of that is McCarthy or Wentz holding onto the ball a little bit too long at times and trying to move around and extend plays. But, you know, Bo Nix has a little bit of that to his game too, where he can get out and pocket extend plays and make things happen too. And he's been able to avoid that stuff happening.

So I think that's going to be important, too. Can KOC put together? I mean, obviously, he's not going to overhaul and throw out his entire offensive scheme. That's just ludicrous to even think that anybody can do that. But can they sprinkle in, like you said, caller, you know, some easy throws, easy quick throws for J.J. McCarthy to make to kind of help him convert third downs, sustain drives,

maintain possession, get off to a good start, and it's going to bode well for the offense to be able to put points on the board. It's going to help the defense because they're not playing from behind. And if anything, it's going to keep J.J. McCarthy upright and not allow him to get hit a lot. And that will then in turn keep him as healthy as possible. So overall, I understand why Kevin O'Connell would design his philosophy for J.J. McCarthy to have a lot of intermediate passing. like when you look at j j mccarthy and i know it's through two games but he actually all of his best

throws are all successful where he could kind of grip it and rip it 15 to 20 yards you think about the ones in Atlanta is one good drive in that game where he hits two balls along the sideline that are 15 20 yards down the field one to thielan one to nailer where he can really step in and throw it the touchdown in chicago across the middle the play action in chicago with uh jefferson coming back to the ball they're all in that same area. That's where he's clearly most comfortable because I think that's where he can really just go, ha, like, and put every ounce of his body into the throw. And that's what he's been doing for his entire life, where a little quick game is,

I got to pitter, patter my feet the right way, I got to put some touch on it. Like, you see Rogers in Quick Game last night at times, just looking magical. Just like, here's a little slant, just right into your hands, perfect, dead accuracy, great feet, great, you know, everything. that's hard to do for McCarthy. So I think that the answer of, hey, just run the quick stuff all the time is not as simple as people make it sound. But the thing that I noticed yesterday, Murph, from watching Green Bay and Houston specifically, two teams that have generally been rooted in Shanahan systems.

D'Amico Ryan, who I know as a defensive coach, but he comes from the Shanahan and Kubiak tree, that famous coaching staff of the Houston Texans, where our friend Sage Rosenfeld, was a quarterback on that team, and Gary developed all these young coaches and stuff. They were running a lot of bootlegs, a lot of dumps to the tight end, a lot of stuff like that. And then looking down the field for some shots, Murph, I think sometimes this team makes it sound like it is freaking impossible to do some of this stuff. And that's what I want to see, not just, as you said, McCarthy's success, but also it is becoming more and more of a swell of, all right, you're the quarterback.

back whisper when you've got cousins and darn old guys who've been in the league for a long time. How about you just yell as opposed to whispering? Like just, just yell the bootlegs. Like I think that it's a major storyline of how he will approach this schematically. He just hasn't had time. Again, he just, we just haven't had enough of McCarthy on the field to really, we've had glimpses. We can kind of surmise what might be. successful for him. But because it's been so limited and because the games as he's played, the Vikings have fallen behind quickly, which eliminates the run game, which puts more pressure on him to convert their downs and sustain drives, when maybe it would have been nice if the

defense could have gotten some three and outs and given them a little bit of breathing space. I mean, it's always an ebb and flow between the offense and defense, right? Who's on the field more? who's keeping the opponent on the field more, who's making it more difficult. It's always going to be that tension, but it feels like the Vikings have been losing that no matter who's quarterback. And also, it just, we've talked ad nauseum about what McCarthy might be successful at or what he might be able to do or what he could do or what this particular plan on this particular drive at this particular moment of game.

He might be able, he has to be out there. to do it. And we just haven't had enough of that, which has been so frustrating. And we've also let's, it should also be noted that Michael Pennix and Bo Nix and Drake May and these guys have all had all of the practice reps, all of the preseason work, all of the game starts. They are so far ahead of him right now in all of that. It, it just feels like we're always at the cusp of what can J.J. McCarthy do compared to what has he already done? And we have. just have very little to go on that. So it has to happen. He has to be on the field. He can't be protected from everything. He can't be shielded from everything. He has to go through the growing

pains that all young quarterbacks do, whether that results in a 7 and 10 record, an 8 and 9 record, a 9 and 8 record, or maybe miraculously a 10 and 7 record. And he wins some big games and has big moments and he gets a playoff test kind of like jaden daniels did last year everybody thought well let him go to detroit and he'll get his seasoning well not only that he got an upset win so all of that has happened while jj has basically been rehabbing so again the eternal question is what can he do based on what we know he can do we need to know all of that now was that uh your collar ringing there, Murph at the background? Or is that the little poochie there? I just muted myself. Yeah, that was my dog escaping. My daughter is taking him away.

Oh, okay. But he might have wanted to weigh in too and say rough, rough, yes. Get him on the field. Well, he's got that dog in him. Manny, you know, a lot of the discussion after this game has kind of always gone back to, you know, O'Connell wants to throw down the field, O'Connell play calling, stuff like that. And this is where I don't want to, want to go there with O'Connell until I see him with J.J. McCarthy, actually for a sample size of games beyond two, because you could say, what great late game play calling against the Bears. And you'd be absolutely right. I mean, it was an incredible fourth quarter for them. And you could say, what a terrible scheme against Atlanta, because, well, it didn't work.

And that's how we do it, which is we wait for the results. And then we say, well, you must have screwed everything up if the results weren't what we wanted them to be. But where, where do you stand on that entire discussion? Because for me, I just need to see it. And they've had way too much success with other veteran quarterbacks that have supposed to be their starters that when you're talking about, well, you couldn't adjust to Dobbs, you couldn't adjust to Wentz. It's like, well, what are those guys career records?

Like, who's winning with those guys? I think Josh Dobbs is maybe three and 12 as a starter in his career. I mean, that's not, you know, and you give him one more credit for the one in Atlanta. Like, that's not really going to tell us a whole heck of a lot. I think that it is a little bit of a prove it, though, here going forward, not all just in this one game, but for O'Connell, like, do you need a veteran quarterback to run this thing? And I'll just throw one more stat at you before you answer on this. In 2022, Kirk Cousins ranked ninth in terms of snap to release time. So how quickly he got rid of the football. Last

year, Darnold was one of the lowest because he hung on to the ball forever and waited to get destroyed before throwing it 30 yards downfield as his style in Seattle and everywhere else he's been. But I think that that shows that it's not impossible in this offense to have someone get rid of the football in a timely fashion. Yeah. And I think that's part of it too when I was talking earlier about, you know, getting hit and and, you know, taking sacks. And, you know, some of that is long developing plays, you know, receivers running deep routes,

intermediate to deep routes and things like that. But some of that is also falls on the quarterback, just being able to make the right read in a timely fashion and know exactly where to go with the football because there were numerous times where we saw, you know, J.J. McCarthy in the Chicago and the Atlanta game where he had time in the pocket to throw. And he was just holding onto the ball too long

because he just wasn't quite ready or hesitant to really just let that ball. rip. I mean, he's got the arm talent to be able to do it and make all the necessary throws. But there were times where he just held onto the ball too long, a little bit too long and he gets hit or he doesn't throw the ball in time and it gets intercepted or, you know, it's thrown behind the receiver, over the receiver, whatever, it's a misthrow. He's got to be able to kind of grow from that and develop that skill. And that, again, to Murph's point, that's just going to come with getting more

experience. I mean, we have to remember J.J. McCarthy is 22 years old and he has not played a lot of football in the last year and a half. So, really, this kid has just got to get out there and get as many reps as possible. And

yeah, like I said earlier, can Kevin O'Connell put him in positions to where he can have some easy success and build some confidence? That's going to be a question. and, you know, interesting to see how that plays out. But also, I mean, this is also going to fall on the kid himself

to, you know, shake some of the bad habits that young quarterbacks tend to always have. I mean, we saw Drake May, who's playing great right now for the Patriots. He showed some flaws when he was first starting last year. Now, part of that was, you know, the coaching situation in New England last year wasn't nearly as good as it is now with Mike Rable. But, you know, part of this is just a, young quarterback needing to get out there and play and learn on the job and show some growth and development, shake some of the bad habits. And that's what's going to be really fascinating

to watch as we progress through the rest of this season. Wins and losses, whatever. You finish 7 and 10. You finish 7 and 10 at this point. But the growth and development of J.J. McCarthy, him breaking some of those bad habits are going to be the most important thing to watch. There's a point to be made there, too, Manny, that, you know, Murph, I think it was you maybe you've said or one of you two guys about like the the run game and getting the run game going and playing off of it. What I would like to see is regard, Murph was talking about how the score is impacted like how they've had to call plays. And I what I'd like to see Kevin O'Connell do is call plays regardless of the score, which is very just anti what you do, right? Like you're down in the game and so you pass and you pass and you pass or you're up in the game and you run.

you run and you run. But against Detroit, they might be down the whole game looking at Detroit and who they are and how quickly they score, stay with the run, build off of the run. And if it results in some slow drives and some, you know, drives where you have to punt or whatever, like, that's okay. Because everything now is about putting McCarthy in favorable situations. If you get down 14 to 3 with McCarthy in there and you say, you know what, throw us back, into the game. And he attempts 47 passes like Carson Wentz against the Philadelphia Eagles and

Jordan Mason runs four times. Is that doing anything to help J.J. McCarthy succeed. And I will give him credit, O'Connell, when they got back in the game against Chicago, it started with a couple big runs from Jordan Mason. But I'm not even talking about getting back in games. I don't care. I truly do not care how many games they win the rest of the way. I know they do. I know the ownership does. I know the players do, but for the bigger picture of this franchise, it truly does not matter. What matters is putting McCarthy in situations where we can actually identify, can this guy play or not. And if he's down 21 to 10 in the third quarter and he's throwing, he's getting hit, he's getting crushed, and they're sending every blitz known to man. And I mean, how does this

help? That doesn't help at all. So treat every situation like a neutral situation for him, if you're down, even if that goes against, uh, your urge to try to get your team back in the game if you're struggling. And what made me think of that was the strip sack against Atlanta. So they were still in the game. It might have been 14 to 6 or something. And they get the ball back and it's first in 10 and they go empty shotgun. And it's, of course, free runner, strip sack and game is over. Like, why are you treating this like it's Sam Darnold back? there. And why are you treating it like it's Kirk Cousins back there? It's not. And I'd like to see him treat it like it's J.J. McCarthy. So how about you guys answer the, uh, the Fandul question of the day

while we're having this discussion, which is, uh, the line moved today on Fanduel from nine and a half to eight and a half, given the Vikings a lot more credit. Uh, but, uh, how many points would they have to score to stay in this game is the question. So how many points does J.J. McCarthy have to put up on offense to remain interesting late in the game, Murph. Him and the offense personally or the team in general? Well, I mean, the offense. Yeah, pick six would be nice, but 28. 28.

I think if you're not even at 28, the lines are going to run you out of the building. And what you were discussing earlier is fascinating because this is what we've been slowly talking about much of this season, even before McCarthy, which was hurt, which is the the underlying tension between a roster that is, what, $300 million invested in and was retooled on the offensive and defensive lines to kind of create this fortress around your young quarterback, well, that's already crumbled. So you're already three and four. You kind of should know who you are. If there's any sense that JJ's going to step in and bail you out of this mess, I mean, that's all gravy. Maybe it does happen. Maybe he does get hot. Maybe the team

galvanizes. Maybe, maybe, maybe. What you're talking about, though, is absolutely correct. It is possession by possession, game by game, locker room deficit by locker room deficit, how he handles himself during the week, how he answers for his performances, how he answers for the team's performance. That's really all that matters going forward. And if that somehow produces a 10 and 7, 9 and 8 record, which seems unlikely at the end, great. If it's 7 and 10 and eight, nine, but you feel like J.J. McCarthy has the room, then that's all you need. But the 33-year-old guy on the defensive line that just signed to come here, who may be underperforming, didn't come here to help develop a young quarterback. So you have that

underlying tension in the locker room, but it really is KOC's responsibility right now. He's not going to say it publicly, but it's his responsibility. Because you have to imagine that his fate is going to be tied with McCarthy's fate in one way or another. McCarthy's career will likely outlast O'Connell's. It could. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. But I think O'Connell's fate in Minnesota is going to be tied with, tied to, however McCarthy

develops in what could be a loss season and how he develops going into next season when you actually know what you have. So it really is the priority right now. he's never going to admit this and he shouldn't but you're right it's what can j j do how can he get better and what do we really have in him and right now wins and losses don't necessarily matter with that circling back to the fan dual question of the day manny how many points i'm supposed to end my answer no i i loved every second of that rant but i also wanted to get manny's answer to the question uh i i'm i'm kind of with murph i i think it's going to

and take somewhere between 27 and 30 points, something like that, to really even have a chance to compete in this game. This lion's offense is every bit as high-powered as it was a year ago, and they have a completely different coordinator calling plays now, but they still have the same personnel, still have the quarterback, still have the running game. The offensive line isn't quite as good as it was a year ago, but they still have the weapons on the perimeter that are dangerous, and they still have the same head coach. So they're going to put up some points. especially considering how this Vikings defense has struggled in recent weeks. So for them to stay competitive in this,

it's going to take 28 to 28 to 31 points in a game. And I think it's possible, but I don't think it's going to be falling down 24 to 3 and then trying to get McCarthy to throw you back in the game. It's going to take getting off to a good start so that you can, you know, run the football with some effectiveness, take some pressure off of McCarthy and then let him kind of settle in and play within the game plan. I think that's honestly their best chance. If they have kind of more of a balanced attack and they're able to kind of stay in the game from start to finish, that's really going to be their best chance to get that amount of points and have a chance, albeit. you know, slight to win this game at Ford Field. I will say when I pull this up that something pop into my mind and then I want to get back

to a bigger picture point on McCarthy that Murph brought up, but when I see the Lions Offensive Line ranking fifth in run blocking, you do think to yourself that the offensive line coach is probably the second most important coach on the team outside of, well, obviously head coach. So behind defensive coordinator, it's probably offensive line coach. And that that does draw the question a little bit about offensive line coaching when you see a team who was supposed to fall apart when they lost some key players and is still top five in their ability to block for the run in the Detroit Lions, guessing that they're coached pretty well up front now this year that they've made up for those guys, you know, leaving.

Maybe they believed in that all along. and that's why they let those guys, or at least Kevin Zitler go. Obviously, Frank Ragnow was a different reason. The point that Murph was making about the tensions between offense and defense, that's a very real thing that does happen. I've seen it happen before 2016. Those guys wanted to stay on the other side of the locker room from each other, the offense and defense because the defense felt like it was good enough.

The offense was falling apart, but their offensive coordinator quit, and their office line all got banged up, and they were like, what are we supposed to do? And all that sort of thing, I do wonder about inside the locker room if McCarthy is not immediately a big upgrade from Wentz and if he's not immediately getting the football to move and is not accurate and those things,

if you do have people starting to ask that question about Sam Darnold, Rogers, all those things, because locker rooms are not that different from water, coolers everybody talks everybody's got their families that talk everybody's got social media and there is a player and we have not wanted to go there and i have not wanted to go there but there is a player who has put up with a lot in terms of quarterback changes and offenses that are always asking him to be the miracle man to get the most out of this quarterback to take this guy to another level to manage this young guy or whatever it might be this guy who's never played here before or is what was

Arnold, 19 and 30 or something in his career. And that's number 18. And I think that he is very relevant here. Now, look, Javon Hargrave. Sorry, man, I don't care. He seems like a nice guy. I shouldn't use him for this. But like, I don't care about his opinions about the bigger picture.

Like, you came here. You're getting your paycheck. Like, just do your job, man. Like, that's not your thing to deal with. But number 18, he's management. Justin Jefferson is management. I asked Quasi Adolfo-Menza this in 2023 about whether they loop him into decisions. And he said yes. So he is part of the decision-making process with everything

and where you think about tension and you think about how this thing can feel as it goes forward, there needs to be proof that this can work. Or just Jefferson, I think, is going to be really frustrated because he has been the good soldier this entire time. And Murph, I couldn't be more impressed with the way I talked to Justin last week about, you know, me and a couple other reporters about, you know, just the quarterback changes, how tough it's been and how he's worked through it. And he never has a bad word to say about it. But you wouldn't blame him if you get to the end of this. And Sam Darnold's playing in January and he's not going, what's the deal here? So it's very noticeable how quick in the NFL or college football as we've seen that these

things that feel so strong and so sound, three months into something can feel really on rocky ground. Yeah, I mean, Justin Jefferson could throw a dump a can of gasoline on this. No question if he did. Just even with the side, you know, the cameras are on them. They're looking for things on the sideline. It almost feels like this is a, you know, a fait accompli. And I, and I don't, I haven't been around Jefferson enough to know everything I've read and seen about what you guys report out of him in the locker room, his comments made. I mean, And his punking, his coach the other day, or last week was pretty funny. I mean, he seems to get it in terms, or his GM.

He seems to get it what being the number one receiver on a team, arguably in the NFL, who's gotten his payday, who obviously has had a mixed bag of people throwing him the ball over the years. It almost feels like there's this drumbeat of when is he going to blow. And if he does blow, of course he's going to be just. justified in blowing. Well, I don't know if we have to necessarily root for that or are anticipated coming. If anything we've seen, he is mature, he's measured, and he gets it in the big picture. So I'm not rooting for a blow-up, even though it would be understandable and cathartic for a lot of

people. I don't think it would be beneficial in the bigger picture, because at the end of the day, what's he going to say that we already don't know? And if he's really putting his name behind, this has been a disaster. I might not be happy anymore. Certainly that's news. But if he really truly doesn't feel that way, it's probably not worth going there. And the fact that he hasn't already,

I would hope would indicate that it wouldn't get that way. All of that being said, though, you're right. It just feels like this is something ready to blow. And not just with Jefferson, but with a veteran locker room. And, you know, I want to hear. Kevin O'Connell talk a little bit more about the Wentz management and all that, but he got really defensive last week when he was asked about McCarthy's timeline again. And I'm not sure he's got a lot of standing right now to be defensive.

I mean, he's gotten, you know, he's a culture of the year, perennial candidate has won it already. He's been solid with the media. The fans adore him. He's gotten his extension. But there are some questions that need to be asked. there's some scrutiny that needs to be put on him in terms of the transparency or lack thereof that's been coming out. And I'm not sure he's got a lot of wiggle room for defensiveness. And, but if Justin Jefferson ends up kind of straying from that, then that comes

back to the head coach too, which is, you know, what are you doing right now to kind of keep everything together? So I'd love to see, this is going to be a fascinating 10 weeks for a variety of reasons most of which are what does it mean for McCarthy but what it means for the locker room watching maybe o'connell manage an adverse end to this season that had such high expectations knowing he still doesn't have a playoff win he's going to be scrutinized as well and I think his actions and words are going to speak a lot louder over these next 10 weeks because of that well and that's the main point here right is that everything can look so much different in 10 weeks weeks if jay mccarthy even wins five or six of these games and then it will settle so much uh and i'm

working on an article for tomorrow about how hey like you know we talked about bringing back darnold is not a bad idea but what can we really compare to get we need this sample to compare before we could start saying the organization screwed up they should have brought back this guy they should assign that guy which rogers didn't make me think last night that the vikings would be any different with him or a lot different with him. They'd probably be a mediocre team. But let me shift subjects on you, Manny. Right now on Fandul, the Super Bowl odds.

Kansas City, number one, naturally, with Patrick Mahomes on their football team. Number two and three, the Detroit Lions at plus 700 and the Green Bay Packers at plus 750. Where, how do you look at what the Lions and Packers have done, building their teams to the point where they are top, true elite Super Bowl contenders. And compare that to where the Vikings are, not just in this three and four start that's been just such a disaster for health and everything else and not getting to play your quarterback,

but even timeline-wise. Like, this was the year where it looked like the Vikings were supposed to compete with those teams, and they're not even remotely close. And if J.J. McCarthy was playing, I have a top. tough time thinking that it would be different because of how poor the defense has been. And these two teams built very differently than the Vikings, where the Vikings went rookie quarterback contract, big spending, where these teams went reliable quarterback, big money, and then draft, draft, draft, draft, draft, draft, draft, draft, draft,

with a million draft picks around them. And it seems to have worked. And then, of course, both made big moves when it was called upon. What do you make of how the Packers and Lions have really solidified themselves as true Super Bowl contenders almost halfway through this season? I think what it shows is that if you have good to elite level quarterback play and you do really well in the draft and you make enough free agent signings that, you know, can supplement. draft picks that you maybe swing and miss on, then you're going to be in pretty good shape. And I think we've seen teams, you know, build themselves into contenders in a lot of different ways. And, you know, building through the rookie quarterback contract and signing veteran players

because you have so much cap space, we've seen that work. We've seen teams have success and be, you know, contenders when they follow that model. But I think in the case of the Detroit Lions, we've also seen a team that moved on from their franchise quarterback and got another, you know, sort of fringe franchise quarterback. And then, you know, he sort of turned himself into a franchise quarterback. And, you know, Matthew Stafford was drafted number one overall by Detroit. Jared Gough was drafted number one overall as well by the Los Angeles Rams. And so the physical talent was there for Jared Goff. It just took him a little bit longer.

But when things started to click for Jared Goff, that was almost kind of a cheat code for the Lions because I remember when they made that trade, I was thinking, oh, Jared Goff is, you know, he's been kicked out of Los Angeles. Sean McVeigh didn't want him anymore. He's going to go to Detroit. The Lions are bad and they're going to have a bad season. And then he's going to be kind of the bridge guy. They're going to draft another guy and build around that guy.

But then Gough went in there and he played really well. And Dan Campbell was like, no, this is my guy. This is going to be my guy here. And it worked out for them. And then that allowed them, because Jared Gough was playing so well, it allowed them to be able to, you know, sort of build around him. And they hit on some draft picks. They made some key free agent signings that weren't big splash signings,

but they worked out for them. And they've turned themselves into, you know, know, perennial contenders. Now, the Packers, a little bit of a different path, but somewhat similar. They traded away their longtime franchise quarterback. They, and they've been kind of building around Jordan Love, and they've done a nice job, too, and they have a really good head coach, I think, and they, they've been able to just make enough moves to put themselves in the position, and then they made the big splash play

with trading for Michael Parsons that maybe can take an already good defense and sort of put them over to top and make them a real championship level defense. The Packers, I'm still kind of curious to see how the season will go for them

because we've seen Jordan Love look great at times and then there's other times where you're like, eh, I don't know, you know. Whereas golf has been much more consistent for Detroit and I think it's really helped them. So the Packers, I'm still kind of

hesitant to see you know how things sort of play out for them but right now with the way they played last night in Pittsburgh that offense seems to be humming right now and they've got enough on defense I think to be able to give them

a chance to go on a run and a lot of times all you need is for Jordan Love to just get hot and then they can go on a roll so the Lions and Packers have both sort of built this built their teams differently from what the Vikings have done, but I'm not convinced that what, you know, the way the Vikings

have done it is the wrong approach. I think it's just the moves that they've made, particularly this, this past off season, just hasn't worked out the way that they planned. Well, there really is two ways to do it. And one is to tank and draft a bunch of guys around a good quarterback, which is what both of those, I mean, the Packers never tanked, but they did have some years that were not as good and they've had to draft a draft to draft and then make a big move with a draft pick to get Parsons, whereas Detroit legitimately tanked and they got rid of everything they could. They got as many draft picks as they possibly could. And it really is funny that they got draft capital in that deal for Jared Goff. So not only did they get a franchise quarterback,

but also draft capital to work with. I agree with you, though. I don't think the Vikings route is wrong. And I also don't think that they can change it. Like, They can't look at Detroit and Green Bay and go, you know what, actually, here's what we're going to do instead. As they go forward, Murph, I think that they have to stay this course of spending around J.J. McCarthy. And when you think they do have a lot of assets on the offensive side to give him, so defense is going to be easier to patchwork and fix.

And if it keeps going this way, it's going to be a change in scheme and defensive coordinator. I promise that. They're not going to continue to go this way where they get smoked by every single good quarterback they play if that continues to be the case. And they do play a lot of good quarterbacks here going forward. So Flora's ability truly to adapt is going to be shown in these coming weeks. But I don't think that they can pivot. For me, Murph, this is what it is. And you're either going to catch up or you're going to be left in Bearsland, which is perpetually behind other teams and the NFC North. And it does all come back to number nine. But it also comes

back to how you find your way out of some of these players that you failed on and into different players from alternate sources because it's not like next year they have a million draft picks that they could just take and develop either. No, and it depends on where they end up, obviously, where their positioning is going to be. I mean, what strikes me a couple of years ago, they were able to get the top 10 pick because they had the cousin's injury and the quarterback carousel. They kind of put them in that position. and I know they made some moves to upgrade their draft capital as well,

but they had that cushion because 2023 was a failure in a way. There's no way you can pivot at this point. The only way you do, I think, is if McCarthy comes out in these 10 games and really just shows that he is not ready yet. And if he isn't yet because of what's collapsing around him or because he hasn't been able to reach his ceiling, then that's where you have to take stop. in, are we prepared to step on the gas and keep going forward with him, which I really think

they have to do? Or are they in a mode where, well, we may have to bring in an older guy and mentor him or at least give him a competition. Maybe that'll be the storyline in camp. We liked a lot of what we saw in JJ, but we're not quite sure yet. Maybe we bring in an arm and see what he can do as opposed to always feathering the nest for him to succeed. Maybe he needs to be pushed in that way. But what's different about, you know, the lions, I mean, the lions were tanking for 50 years, arguably. And they were able to park,

the Packers were able to park Jordan Love behind Aaron Rogers. Just like they were able to park Aaron Rogers behind Brett Barr. McCarthy hasn't had that opportunity. Yes, he was slightly parked behind Sam Darnel. And Sam Darnel was busy rediscovering himself. I'm not sure how much mentoring he was doing while McCarthy was rehabbing anyone. Love got to learn. Rogers got to learn in the cradle of a Hall of Famer.

So those are different scenarios. And the Packers are still a young team. I think I've read that they're still the youngest team in the league. So they're still learning and growing. Love is learning and growing. You know, they had a big win against Dallas in the playoffs. Then he lost to Philadelphia. But I feel like they are positioned on much more of a long-term trajectory.

the lions are in win now mode with an aging gauph and a roster that's been positioned to cash in now. The Vikings are still trying to figure out if McCarthy is that long-term solution. I believe they're on the right track. They put all their cards and their chips in the middle on McCarthy, general manager on down. So they kind of have to stick with that, warts and all. What is going to be interesting, though, is what is he going to look like thrust into this three, and four team where expectations are sky high for him, maybe not so much for the season, and how is that going to, how we're going to all measure that out at the end when we're

judging McCarthy, the offense, the defense, the head coach, and the general manager. How much of McCarthy, how much is McCarthy going to be able to help his head coach and his management by some more time? And how much is he going to inject panic in whether or not they made the right decision. That's what we need to see. I think about catching up to these two teams who know what they have at quarterback and how hard that is and how much less hard it will feel if you walk out of this season knowing you've got a quarterback.

Because when you look at teams that have even made some mistakes with their money that's been spent, even the New England Patriots, they signed free agents in the past that completely blew up on them. And because of Drake May, they were able to move out the old, bring in the new, and all of a sudden, they're a completely different team. The Vikings will be able to do the same if they know he is their guy. If they're still asking that question by the end of the year,

then the advantage is so much in the hands of Detroit, at least for another one or two years, while they kick the can down the road and extend as much of that roster as they possibly can. And then, you know, Green Bay, as you said, I mean, they have the foundation to be good for years to come. And Mike Parsons, thank you, Jerry Jones, is in his prime and is unstoppable. That makes them just a baseline of a good defense to begin with, even if they're not perfect on the back end.

All right. Last question for you guys. Let's try to make it a fun one. Here on Fan Duel, the favorite for MVP is Patrick Mahomes because we just live in a flat circle. and every year forever, it's got to be Tom Brady and then Patrick Mahomes after him. But after that, Drake May plus 400. That's an interesting one. Josh Allen has emerged at plus 400.

Those are by far the three favorites. The dark horse for MVP, Jonathan Taylor, is at plus 200. That does not happen very often, not in many, many years. Mani, who's, who do you like for an MVP pick? see i i'm glad you brought up jonathan taylor because that that was the guy that if i had a vote right now i would probably go with jonathan taylor because he's been so good and you know daniel jones has played well for the colts and i think they have a much better roster than maybe they were giving credit for going into this season um but jonathan taylor has really been

the driving force for that team to have the kind of success to that they've that they've had he's been great for daniel jones he's been great for that defense his ability to run the ball sustained drives has taken a lot of pressure off of that defense it's taken a lot of pressure off the quarterback and it's allowed them to really do almost anything that they want and win in in multiple types of types of ways and so for me it's jonathan taylor i know it's you know the MVP is typically a quarterback's award um mohomes is always going to be in the in the in the in the conversation. Josh Allen's always going to be in the conversation. I think if Lamar had been healthy and the Ravens had been better as a team, he would always be in that conversation as well. Drake May is playing

great. But for me, it's Jonathan Taylor, man. He's just been, he's been fantastic for the Colts. Or the MVP of Murph's heart as a Detroit native Jonathan Taylor Thomas is who he has. Is home improvement? Joke, no. Yeah, no, I never liked that show anyway. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that was one of my favorites growing up as a 10-year-old. Yeah, you know, Tim Allen's from Detroit, yada, yada. I think it's overrated. Oh, wow. All right. Hostility about home improvement, a show that ended in 1997. Hey, you injected it here. Anyway, MVP? I love everything that, John, that Taylor is doing. But I, you know, what is Adrian Peterson, the last running back to win MVP? I mean, it's

to be a hard, hard thing to do if Sequin Barclay couldn't win it last year with what he did with Philadelphia winning a Super Bowl. It's going to be hard. He is making Daniel Jones look so much better, though, taking so much pressure off him. You know, the usual suspects, Mahomes, Alan, you know, like you said, Jackson, if he was healthy, I really like Baker Mayfield, mainly because he's got Tampa at six and two. If Tampa finishes, you know, 12 and 5, 11 and 4, wins the NFC South, gets some home games. It's going to be because of what Mayfield has really done for that team and that offense.

And it's really not only resurrecting his career, but a franchise that really just hasn't had a lot of quality. I mean, they had Tom Brady for a moment, but has not had a lot of quality quarterback play over the last several years. And for him to kind of be the NFL's, you know, marketing golden child and flame out in in Cleveland where, you know, quarterbacks go to die, where, you know, any good player goes to die, I guess, to see him kind of work his way back in Darnold-like fashion, kind of doing the grunt work, figuring out who he is, figuring out what it takes to succeed in the league, and the way he's able to kind of help Tampa win in a variety of different ways with his legs and his arm and do it sort of from a humbled position, kind of that, I would like to see him perhaps. put the cherry on top of a redemption season with an MVP award. But, you know, I really do like Josh Allen, too,

just because of what he's gone through and who the bills are. So I know it's all voted on during the regular season, but to me, if Alan can finally bring that Super Bowl to Buffalo, he's the most value of a player on the planet, let alone the most value of a player in the league. The MVP speech from Baker Mayfield would be one that might break the entire internet. So Brian Murphy, Manny Hill, we do this every Monday with the trio here breaking everything down and the vibe may be quite a bit different by this time next week or it

might sound very similar to what it did tonight. I guess we'll find out and we'll follow along. So thanks for your time, Merv. Thank you for your time, Manny. And we will see you, Manny on Thursday night to pick the schedule, which should be maybe the lowest win total we've ever seen since we started winning or picking the schedule with you. And Murph will see you on Monday. Also, Murph wrote a column for the newsletter, Purple Insider. Football. Make sure you go check that out.

And we will catch you guys all very later. A lot to come this week, by the way. Jeremiah Searles going to give us a player's perspective on everything that's going on. Going to have Cody Alexander, defensive guru, who writes the match quarters newsletter, breakdown what's going on with the defense. I do have, for all of you draft nuts,

Chris Tripasso coming on to analyze why the Vikings haven't succeeded in the draft. So, who off we go into the future. Thanks, guys. Thanks, everybody. And we'll see you next time. Football. All right. There you go.

Football.