Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - CBS's Mike Renner talks us into Sam Darnold thriving, Green Bay struggling

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Matthew Coller and CBS Sports analyst Mike Renner talk each other into stuff, from Sam Darnold playing in the playoffs to JJ McCarthy's one-year recovery being a good thing to the Packers somehow missing the postseason Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. And joining the show for the 100th time, Mike Renner, who is now the co-host of Pushing the Pile, along with Kyle Long at CBS Sports. Congratulations on your new job. The last time we talked, you knew you were getting the job, but we couldn't announce it yet. So we just had to say, Mike Renner, football guy. But now you have announced the job. I'm so happy for you, man. Welcome back to the show. What's going on

not too much it's nice to be able to come here and say i have a job you know i'm not just a guy who sits on his couch watching sports and i still am but now someone pays me for it so that's even better that is good and i just started listening to pushing the pile got on the uh you know the subscribe list here with you and Kyle Long. And people should listen to Offensive Linemen Talk Football. They are the funniest and the most knowledgeable people talking about the game that you're going to find. So I'm very excited about this, very excited for you. You're in the CBS offices as we record this.

But you know, it's been a while, Mike, since we've done on the show an episode of Talk Me Into. And I feel like you've had several memorable Talk Me Into episodes along the way. So I'm just going to start it out. And if people haven't heard this before, we just ask each other to talk each other into stuff. And sometimes it's something you don't even remotely believe, but that's the challenge. You have to do it anyway. So let's just begin with this. Why don't you talk me into Sam Darnold playing playoff football this year?

It's easy to talk you into that one because, you know, we saw Josh Dobbs do it for a portion of time, right? Last year, like with that offense, with Kevin O'Connell, with the weapons that they have, TJ Hawkinson, Jordan Adams, and Justin Jefferson. there's a lot of guys that can play playoff football and I think with Darnold especially you've seen it in flashes whether it was the first handful of games in Carolina whether it was some spurts with the Jets like there's a reason why no one can quit this guy the talent is undeniable and what I saw this preseason, obviously limited action, right? I saw a guy who was confident. I saw a guy who was throwing with anticipation on throws that I'm not sure he would have

early on in his career with the New York Jets. So I think for all those reasons and the fact that, you know, he's been around some good offensive minds too over there in San Francisco last last year that there could be a geno smith resurgence i think it's very easy to see now we also were talking to this in carolina right i just mentioned those first three games a lot of people were calling it then too so we've been fooled before but i do think that you know like tom brady was saying uh and that viral clip the other day, it's like we don't develop quarterbacks. We don't give them a chance to really have that second stage of their careers.

That Tom Brady was much better year eight than even he was when he was winning Super Bowls year three and year four, right? So I think that's what we could see with Sam Darnold, and especially with the situation there with the tackles they have, with the receivers they have i can buy it so when darnold was coming out in the draft and now you get to feel like an old guy finally in this world uh you evaluated him of course back when you were with pff what did you think of him then like were you a darn old guy back then i wasn't a huge darn old guy to me me, that class, obviously, I didn't get it right by any means, but I was a Baker guy, and then the rest were kind of a mixed bag. I

thought Baker was the one franchise guy in that class. The rest were kind of guys I would, you know, if I desperately needed one, probably take, but I wasn't like, man, that's a top flight guy. I didn't have that take on it. And well, Lamar's turned into one. Josh Allen's definitely turned into one. I've missed on those, but I do think with Rose and Darnold, you kind of saw some same things you saw in college where it's like, they weren't ready just yet. And with Darnold, it really was, he was the guy that had the big breakout.

It was a redshirt freshman year at USC. Everyone promised that he was going to be the guy, and they threw a ton of picks the year before. And it's like, I don't necessarily want the guy who's throwing a zillion picks at USC, top three in the draft, especially with what the Jets ended up giving up for him in that trade-up with the Colts.

So I just worried about the decision-making, and that's kind of the thing that's haunted him over his career. You obviously see kind of the thing that's haunted him over his career. You obviously see kind of the outside the pocket, the ability to create, he's fearless to a fault at times, but he is a guy who is going to attack. And this is an offense with the receivers they have that you better attack. Like it is a intermediate to deep offense in how they operate. It is not a,

let's check it down and try to inch our way down the football field. So he fits from that perspective and what they want to do. So do you buy that someone, there's two things of, do you buy, do you buy that someone can be ruined by their team and their circumstances? And also do you buy that someone can, a listener to the show called it the hero trigger that Sam Darnold has, that they can limit their hero trigger where they just try to make throws that aren't actually there because it's a big arm dude, the Winston thing. For some reason, Nick Mullins does this and Sam Darnold has always done it. How much do you buy that both of

those things can be changed or matter I'm not sure guys that throw picks can turn into like Aaron Rodgers right at this level now you know early on if it's college I think there's a lot of development still to be had but I do think your risk sort of how much you're willing to assume at the quarterback position is kind of inherent. You either are risky or you're Alex Smith. You know, Alex Smith didn't just turn to Alex Smith. He was always Alex Smith. He was always not trying to throw picks.

Aaron Rodgers, same way. So I think risk aversion is kind of an inherent thing. But I do think you can be set back by your situation. It's not necessarily ruined. I do think a lot of times, whether it's guys, the popular example is David Carr. Some of the guys just don't have it. Then they go to bad situations, but they don't mean if they overcome them because we didn't have in the first place. I don't think you're going to ruin it, but I do think you can set guys back. I think there

can be like if Sam Darnold went to a situation where they had an elite offensive line, elite quarterback, I don't think we to a situation where they had an elite offensive line, elite quarterback, I don't think we'd be talking about him as an elite player at this point, but I think his development would have enhanced. And he could have been, you know, like what Baker Mayfield is right now. Like he could have been thought of in this just like kind of average

quarterback mold. So that's, like I said, I think the guys overcome them. When, when you see a Joe Burrow playing with a terrible off the line, when you see what Justin Herbert had to that's, like I said, I think the guys overcome them when, when you see a Joe Burrow playing with a terrible off the line, when you see what Justin Herbert had to deal with, like they overcame situations, the truly elite guys do, but it's kind of that second and third tier where it really matters, the situation that you're in of being able to overcome it. So I think he very well could have been in that tier had he been in a place where he was supported

better. I think you have somewhat talked me into this because we're not talking about just regular meh kind of situations. We're talking about horrific situations that he was in. And there's also, there's also something to be taken away. If we're trying to make it the case for someone that the nfl keeps thinking he can start the people who have evaluated him over and over again they keep giving him jobs and giving him opportunities and even as good as mccarthy was in training camp and in the preseason game darnold was going to start anyway which is also a meaningful data point as we try to evaluate this and the fact that he won the backup job in san francisco like that means something too that means kyle shanahan thought if i have to play this guy i can absolutely do it it does become hard to convince me with the

division you didn't mention that part of it that's going to be tough uh but as far as could they be a competitive team with darnold i am buying that at the moment even as disappointed as vikings fans are that they're not going to see uh jj mccarthy very quick what would you like to be talked into from me yeah convince me that the jj mccarthy injury is maybe a blessing in disguise is almost a good thing for his development. Commits me of that. Okay. So I, of course, along with the rest of everyone would have liked to have seen him play. And that would have been great for business for him to play early this year. However, I think that when you have someone who is 21 years old and had made a lot of

progress and learned quickly and took a extreme work ethic approach to this didn't go on vacation during the six weeks between mini camp and training camp and really put their head to the grindstone or whatever that saying is that he's going to find every way under the sun just the person he is to improve even if he can't be working on the exact footwork until he comes back from the meniscus tear but learning from Sam Darnold each week understanding how game planning works communicating with the coaches with Josh McCown with Kevin O'Connell seeing the ups and downs the adversity of a season I think is really important because there's no emulating that at Michigan when you win every single, he's going to see what it's like to be in a room

when you are not winning every single game and probably have some losing streaks that go into this. Uh, he's going to understand football, I think at a much, much deeper level, because, you know, he's going to study the bleep out of it during this time and then it's a meniscus tear it's not the teddy bridgewater injury where he's going to never be the same you tie that thing back together and he can be out there working probably in full practices or his full footwork type of thing before the season is even over uh and i don't expect him to play, but I expect him to be out there getting that footwork back. And by the time he hits the actual offseason,

which from year one to year two is the most important time for any rookie into year two to develop, he's going to be able to have the full offseason to work on all that technique stuff that he learned from Kevin O'Connell and Josh McCown and the playbook. And by the time he comes back, that footwork, that understanding of the timing and the rhythm

of the offense and all those things, every single element of defenses and how they play, he'll have a year of experience to be able to work on that. And he will be ready to go 2025 starting quarterback with a team that's set up really well for him to succeed. So I think the only silver lining is now there's no pressure in doing it. And there's no controversy in doing it. Whereas there would have been the weekly Stephen A. Smith saying it's preposterous that he's not playing. He doesn't have to deal with that at this point. I am if I were to run an NFL team,

I think I've come around on the fact that if I were drafting a top 10 quarterback, in rare occasions, would I ever want them even touching a football field year one? I just think the turnaround, I think the thing that people don't mention enough is the turnaround. You are drafted end of April. You know, everyone else is getting their kind of playbooks knows where they're going to be three months prior, right? They're there, you know, the previous season or whatever. They have this big learning.

They've either learned the offense or get the playbooks from a new coach and they get up to speed with multiple more months. You basically have this four month period where you have to learn everything you want about the NFL. And so like your head's already spinning in terms of the playbook, in terms of new scheme, new, whatever,

all this stuff, it's probably much more than it's put on your plate collegiate level. And then the speed of the game, like there's just so many adjustments that I don't, I wouldn't say there's, like I said, I don't think you're ruining guys, but when you throw them out there, they are just bad habits that can happen that can be learned in the speed of the game when you're not going to see the field. You're going to have to learn everything. I want you to be completely comfortable the first time you take a snap on an NFL field. I think that's just a much better way to go about it because no rookies ever won a Super Bowl, right? So if no

rookies ever won a Super Bowl, why do we have to throw them out there everyone? And we've seen numerous year two quarterbacks who, you know, like Patrick Holmes obviously being the most recent who didn't necessarily need that first year to play at an elite level so that's my take I just think the reps thing yeah it matters but I think you can get a lot of those in practice if you have a plan of really getting up to speed in that regard obviously McCart's going to miss that with the injury but I do still think it's not nearly and especially the fact that the meniscus now getting fully repaired is the best case scenario in terms of long-term health. That's a hundred percent the way it would have gone. Yeah.

I mean, of all the scenarios where JJ McCarthy gets hurt at some point, this was probably the best one you could ever ask for because he can still do a lot of things that are going to help him in the longterm and the Vikings stay on track with what their team building was going to be anyway, that they are trying to build up for 2025 to be a truly competitive team. And he'll be ready to go at that point. Yeah, I don't, I don't disagree. I mean, I think that some players come in and they are so ready that you cannot deny

them the CJ Stroud. But if, if Joe Burrow had not played in his first year and he, I think he did a good job in his first year, but he suffered an injury. He didn't have a very good supporting cast and he had started in year two. I mean, he probably still goes to the super bowl. He probably,

you know, even makes as much progress without playing because of that mental part of it. And when the, you know, talk about the Tom Brady thing, I think that this is Kevin O'Connell. His goal with JJ McCarthy was to make sure that he could do everything as a quarterback by the time he stepped onto the field, not some dumbed down let's run play action boots and, you know, half field reads and things like that. But instead let's, let's have him be able to do what Matt Stafford did with the Rams and that

offense, which is extremely similar, the way that they're running this with Stafford. I think they, it's a very similar offense, but that's complicated and that's a veteran quarterback. They want them to be able to handle all that stuff. Just your opinion though, on the very early returns versus what you thought of jj mccarthy and i can fill in the blanks by telling you that what you saw in that preseason game was exactly what we've seen in training camp it wasn't

oh he's playing as backups and someone made a mistake and he had a big play uh but his physical tools have come along i think even much farther than I expected them and the work ethic all the things they said about his character has been completely true so what did you think of just how he made that transition and where he could go yeah I think it was the other thing that we haven't touched on is that with the timing of the injury and kind of how it went like he really got the confidence the fact that he played as well as he did in the first preseason game that he has right in training camp, it's like, oh, I have this it's training camp, but for, I don't think he was billed as a project. I didn't see him as a project. I just saw him as a guy with like some flaws in his game. You didn't, you didn't see those be like the guy we saw, I guess, early on last season

when he was really kind of had the reins of that offense before late in the season, when they kind of just ran it on down everybody's throats and didn't need to pass the ball whatsoever that guy showed them through and there were you know the highs that we saw on tape in michigan looked like what we just saw with the bike folks u.s cellular noticed that the way we use our phones has gotten ironic we try to put our phones down for dinner but the menu is on a QR code. That's ironic. We hit like on social media posts that we don't actually like. Ironic. Which is why U.S. Cellular created UsMode to help us reconnect with each other and use our phones less ironically. A phone company wanting people to use their phones less? let's find us again with us mode from

us cellular visit us cellular.com slash built for us to get started right yeah no i agree and what i did not know necessarily was the velocity that he could put on the football i mean i saw him do it on some throws over the middle in Michigan where he really wound up and let it loose. But I think that he's grown and developed physically, which is why you draft the 21-year-old and maybe not necessarily the 24-year-old Bo Nix. I want you to talk me into, since you decided to troll today

and wear your Green Bay Packers t-shirt there. Oh, oops. I want you to, because it is a Vikings podcast, talk me into Green Bay missing the playoffs. Oh, I love this. I mean, injuries happen at the quarterback position too. And Sean Clifford ain't leading anybody in the playoffs. I do think I worry about the offensive line. I think if there's

one position on this team that could kind of sink it, it is the O-line. I like Jordan Love's pocket presence. I think he can play behind some mid to below average O-lines, but I don't think they have the depth especially at offensive tackle to survive, say, Zach Tom goes down or this year in particular Rasheed Walker goes down I think they are SOL in terms of how they're gonna have to block people and LeFleur over to give him credit I think he's great at when he knows his tackles are bad or when he has backups in they get chips every time he's not gonna let them ruin games but that's also

tough to run an offense through and so you have have that combined with a thin O-line at tackle, combined with the fact that they are playing in what maybe isn't this year the toughest division in the NFC. It could be. It truly could be. But at least next year is going to be the toughest division in the NFC. Like the arrow is pointed in an upward direction, I think, for every single franchise there. So it's just going to be competitive. So nine and eight, I don't think gets you in this year. So if they don't take that next step, if we saw, you know, the first half of Jordan Love that we saw last year,

and I think everyone's buying into the second half, but there's not necessarily that we see that guy the entire season, right? There are still some things, and I still think some question marks in this receiving core also that need to be answered in terms of their ball skills making place after the catch that really we only saw for a spurt last year. So it's possible. I hope I didn't talk you into it.

I hope I did a bad job explaining there because I don't believe it whatsoever. No, I think they're going to make the playoffs as well but if there if there was something with jordan love that wasn't true from last year if that makes sense like if there is a weakness that could crop up in his game that we didn't see in the second half of last year when he was so good because this is a small sample size thing and what a lot of vikings fans are just praying to the football gods for is that he's Carson Wentz and it went well for a short run and that wasn't really who he was. Is there something there that could cause some regression from him? Well, the reason why I'm confident he's not is the pocket presence. Like he was legitimately one of the best in the NFL in terms of feeling

pressure, sidestep in, still delivering down the football field. If there is one thing that I could see crop up, it's picks. He does take chances. I mean, he's anti-Aaron Rodgers in that regard, where he will throw the ball up for grabs at times. Those came down a lot. Those sometimes come down a lot, bounce to the defense side of the ball. 50-50 balls can go either way by definition. I think that could be his

downfall this year. He is prone to, and you saw at the end of the 49ers game, take that bad chance that you really shouldn't take. We saw it numerous times and come from behind chances. I think that's if anything you're worried about, it is those becoming snowballing on him one bad decision leads to another and then he's you know as keanu reeves said quicksand he's going he's sinking so i think that's the worry but i don't think he's carson wentz um there's just the pocket presence is too good the feel for the pocket is is much better than what i ever saw from

wentz yeah there was another packers quarterback two quarterbacks ago that uh had a tendency to pull the hero trigger a little bit too much and he had some bad years people from pakistan like to gloss over those but he had some bad years there in the mid-2000s he did i mean he threw tons of interceptions at times and uh i feel like with interceptions in general a lot of times and his turnover worthy play rate wasn't bad. So that is important to mention that he did avoid actually plays that could turn into turnovers. But if you are a risk taker, you're going to have that happen from time to time.

I personally, from what I watched, I thought this guy's in total command of that offense. The connection with his head coach is really, really good. The wide receivers, he seems to know how to use them to their strengths, even if they don't have a true elite one. Maybe the defense could be a question for me because they have a new defensive coordinator and I just don't know how that's going to go. But aside from that, it is pretty hard to make an argument that the Packers won't make

the playoffs and won't be a contender with Detroit you know, Detroit and Chicago for years to come. It's just, it's, it's going to be a little bit tough there. What, what would you like for me? What do you want to hear? Talk me into this defense, being able to capture the first half of the season magic. Cause they kind of fell off down the stretch last year. How do they capture that for the entire season? vikings defense you mean yes yes sir yeah absolutely

we're off the packers right okay so um it's yeah the the packers defense had no magic ever um so when it uh not since reggie white anyway or charles woodson but when it comes to, yeah, when it comes to the Vikings defense, the hard part about the first half of the season is the quarterbacks that they're going to go up against. It is a serious murderer's road aside from Daniel Jones in week one. C.J. Stroud, Aaron Rodgers, Jordan Love, Matthew Stafford, Jared Goff. This is a very good group of offenses. But I think that this defense, and I actually wrote about this today, I think this defense is way better than it was last year in terms of its personnel. You lose Daniel Hunter, that's a lot to lose. But with Van Ginkle, Turner, and Jonathan Grenard versus Hunter and DJ Wanham, I don't even think that's close.

I think that's way better to have multiple pass rushers. And even they mix in some other guys who are good in situational roles like Patrick Jones or Jihad Ward. Those guys aren't starters, but if they're in a NASCAR third down package, they can do some damage there. And Blake Cashman is an upgrade over, uh, what Jordan Hicks was last year and the versatility and things that they can do and signing Stefan Gilmore. I know that a lot of people were like, Oh, why would they sign

Stefan Gilmore? He's old. But when I looked at this, and this is why we use the data, Mike, when I looked at this, what I discovered was that if you make it to 34 years old as a cornerback, it means you're really good at football. And there's probably something still there. Cornerbacks who have played past 34 have actually had pretty good results because those are only the best of the best that can still do it. So I expect Stefan Gilmore to still be pretty decent for this team. And that shores up such a massive

weakness but aside from that they've been completely healthy they have the best safety unit maybe in the entire NFL and Brian Flores is a game plan mastermind I think last year what he was doing is mashing the engage eight button over and over again because he had to because he couldn't get pass rush just out of his front four. But now with the edge rushers, I think they can, and they could do a lot more interesting stuff in coverage than they were able to do last year, where it was either send everybody or drop everybody as unique as that was.

That was out of, that was out of desperation. I don't think that that was actually the plan. This is going to look a little bit more like a Bella checky and defense, which could cause teams a lot of desperation. I don't think that that was actually the plan. This is going to look a little bit more like a Belichickian defense, which could cause teams a lot of problems. And we talked about giving them a chance to play in the playoffs. I think their defense is the best chance to give them a chance to play in the playoffs. I like your point about Stephon Gilmore, because just anecdotally, it's like from history of cornerbacks to me it's like they

either hit 31 32 and it's just gone like they are they get cooked there and then you're out of the league or they're hanging on to like 36 37 you're like charles woodson still in pro bowl safety seasons you know like kareem jackson still get it like they hang on because it's like you were a skill guy you were relying on skill you don't necessarily need so I like that take because I do think Gilmore was still good lunch well he was yeah and he played almost a thousand snaps in each of the last two seasons guys like even Brent Grimes Terrence Newman who was here they played pretty well into their later stages yeah yeah I mean Newman was much older than even Stefan Gilmore so he might might have a few more years to go. But as far as evaluating a defense, how tough is that in your mind

when it comes to projecting a defense into the season? Because I think it's one of the harder things to do. I do think it's tough. I think you can identify, let's say like the top five. I think those stand out because it's talent, right? You can identify the top five. You can identify the teams that are really in trouble. The, let's say five to 27 then.

Those, it's difficult to shake out which teams are going to be six to 10 versus which teams are going to be necessarily 21 to 26. And it's more than likely not. I mean, it's defense coordinator driven at that point. It's why coaches matter so much and why Flores, you know, with, I think, objectively less talent last year than they had in 2022, got better results. So I think, so when you have a guy like that, and obviously the Vikings do, you feel good about saying, hey, you know, these pieces that were not necessarily like a Stephon Gilmore, like a Blake Cashman, you feel good about saying, hey, you know, these pieces that were not necessarily like a Stefan Gilmore, like a Blake Cashman.

You feel good about them coming over and actually replicating what we saw in years prior, or maybe even being better because he knows he's going to put him in a situation to succeed. So, oh, we got two linebackers with tiny T-Rex wingspans, right? It's like, I don't think they're going to get exposed the way, say they would, if he must not be named before Packers DC was scheming it up there. Well, yeah, terrible person or not. Brian Flores is really, really good at understanding players' skill sets and putting them in the right positions, which is what Andrew van ginkle talked about

when all the reporters had to go ask all the players if their defensive coordinator is a terrible person it's very uncomfortable but and we did a couple of yeah we we did a get a couple of interesting things about it like van ginkle saying i'm here making this money because of brian floris because he identified the things that he could do. Did you, were you a Dallas Turner fan coming out of the draft? Yes, I was. Hard not to be. What did you like about him? What's not to like? I mean, the twitch, it was just the athlete. And you saw it, he even launched in this preseason. I was like, he looks like he's kind of tuned it up even a

little bit more from what I saw at Alabama in terms of, I think, his agility. He really bounced on tape in some of the reps he had, just crossed in the face of a guard. I think it was on an interior rush. I was like, oh, that's something I didn't see too much at Alabama because they are still, at Bama defense, was such do your job. It was very much a do not freelance. You rush lanes.

You got to do X, Y, Z, and everyone else does that, and we'll be a good defense sort of thing. So we had to play a do not freelance. You rush lanes, you got to do X, Y, Z. And everyone else does that. And all of a sudden we'll be a good defense or a thing. So we had to play a lot within structure that I think when you give them a little more freedom, he's going to be a problem. And I saw some nice rushes this preseason. So the pure, when you look at physical comps for a guy like that,

there are none that did not turn out to be like pro bowl caliber rushers right they're that when you have that life can life's easy off the edge it's just impossible to have answers for a guy who has that explosion that flexibility that length that bend that there's everything in his arsenal to do any move he wants. Those guys are tough to block. So yeah, Dallas Turner worth when, worth worth that trade up. When you look at someone next to Vaughn Miller and say, I could kind of see it. That's you're in a, you're in a good place.

But what I didn't know about him is that he's a really sharp guy in football. Intelligence wise, regular intelligence wise seems like a really bright dude and that if you're paired with brian floris physical skill with intelligence to play the game the right way that he wants you to play you're gonna do pretty well now this one might be a big challenge for you i want you to talk me into vikings fans not being terrified of caleb williams talk me into hey fans not being terrified of Caleb Williams talk me into hey guys they all fail in Chicago he'll be Rex Grossman or Kyle Orton or Chad Hutchinson or Mitch Trubisky or whatever talk talk me into Vikings fans should not be shaking in their boots about Caleb Williams and how good he looks so far?

I do worry about his play within structure. And it's not because you still have to have that first. You know, if you just do the outside of structure stuff, you look like Josh Allen early in his career, right? Where it's just like, man, that's what he's trying to live off of and and you can still be successful doing that but you do have to be it's basically like you have to learn the rules before you can break them consistently and so i still think you need to learn the rules you saw him take a lot of sacks last year he took more sacks last year than i believe mich Michael Penix took in his entire career.

And I think Bo Nix took an entire career. I might need to fact check that one. But he holds on to the ball a long time. He's going to hold on to the bitter end. And he's going to hold on to his number one receiver a lot in his progression and be late to his number two from what I saw on tape at USC and even from this preseason. So there are things about pure quarterbacking that he can improve on. That's, I think, also the scary thing is that he put up the numbers he did

while still having things to improve upon at USC. But I do think there will be some growing pains with him that, you know, C.J. Stroud was a robot in college and a robot first year in the NFL in terms of how he operated an offense. The footwork was perfect. The timing was perfect. It was almost like, is he too robotic? I don't think you can be at that position. You can't be too crisp. And so I think it's just what Caleb needs to work on. So will he get there? You know, it's a Packers fan. It's a Vikings fan. We obviously hope not, but, but, but, but the other stuff is, is pretty insane. So I do think there is still just like, there are shortcomings about quarterbacking that he lacks, but from a physical standpoint,

there's literally nothing he lacks guys. Yeah. That's the thing. I don't think that it's quite like a Justin Fields fields thing where justin fields couldn't see the field really at all and just hold on to it and hold on to it and hold on to it i think caleb has this i know i can make a special play so i'm gonna go do it where fields would either kind of run or he would just get sacked where williams is going to do the mahomes he's going to do the josh allen He's going to do the Josh Allen thing, or even the Deshaun Watson early career thing before it turned into some mutant gross, whatever it is now. But like what Watson did early in his career was take a ton of sacks,

but also make a ton of plays. And I could see that happening with Caleb Williams early on. It's really about how much do you curtail that? Because when Watson was an elite quarterback, he was able to cut down on that and play a little more of a simple game. I do wonder a little bit about Caleb Williams and his height and being able to stand in that pocket and go through his progressions. I think it matters. It matters with Kyler Murray, but I feel like Kyler Murray might be the floor for Caleb Williams,

which is still a quarterback that is pretty darn good at football. So I don't know if I'm totally talked into him not being scary, but I mean, I guess that the super, super scary on the same level as someone like Josh Allen, I'm not sure that he's going to get there when he has the turnovers that he does. That's I think the thing is like the floor is like you mentioned the caliber. That's probably the floor is the thing. It's like the floor is, like you mentioned, the caliber.

That's probably the floor is still a guy who's dangerous, right? But if he doesn't evolve the rest of his game, he's not going to be Patrick Mahomes. He's not going to be Josh Allen. He's not going to get to that tier. And so that's, again, if I'm trying to talk you out of it, it's like, we've seen guys who have that caliber of ability, just kind of never develop the precision that it takes to get to that level.

So, okay. One more from each. Well, I give, give me one more. What do you want from me? It could be anything.

That three Vikings can be anything. Oh gosh. Um, talk me into Brian Flores, not being the bad guy in the tua saga here okay that's a little bit challenging uh okay here we go here we go i got this the owner of the Miami Dolphins asked Brian Flores to tank, allegedly, and then allegedly even offered him extra money to lose on. I'm not sure we even have to say allegedly, right? Like they were taking picks away because of that whole thing. So what?

Or was that the Brady thing? That was the Brady thing. That was it. So it wasn't necessarily. OK. But even then, the Brady thing is sort of proof of how that operation was corroborating evidence. Shall we say? Not that I don't respect it because, hey, why don't you come on the yacht and become our quarterback and win us a Super Bowl like you did that other team?

I get it. I respect it. But I also feel like when they made such efforts to lose to get toua, it was the tank for Tua, they land him. Then if you're Brian Flores, you're trying to play to win each week. And Brian Flores is a very intense dude who also has a lot of pride. And I don't think he's the guy who's going to say,

you know what? Yeah, let me play the rookie quarterback who is nowhere close to ready to play and i'll just lose games here and get fired or i could actually play ryan fitzpatrick with my great defense and give us a chance to win every single week and go to the playoffs and do what i want to do with ryan fitzpatrick and i think actually fitzpatrick was maybe one of the best versions of himself in miami He was playing pretty well. And you could see where that pressure from the top to play the guy he didn't want to play would then trickle into his disposition toward the quarterback.

I also think that old school defensive coaches have a reputation for being very hard on quarterbacks. Rex Ryan was this way with Mark Sanchez, Bill Belichick, even with Tom Brady. There was mentions along the way with Brady having problems with how he was treated by Bill Belichick and him being so hard on him, even after they had many Super Bowl rings. Drew Bledsoe talked about how Bill Parcells drove him crazy. I personally witnessed four years of Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins, and Kirk Cousins would say something in a press conference and then hear about it from Mike Zimmer,

and at the end, Kirk is shaking him on the sideline. He's so frustrated with him. I mean, this is like one of the oldest football motifs if you will is the defensive coach who can't stand the quarterback and uh i don't know that it's a super serious thing other than this is kind of how it goes and had they had brian flores been the coach two years later where they get tyree kill and jaylen waddle and have a good offense and to us playing well and hit and has developed several more years. He's probably a way different quarterback now than he was then. Yeah. It's probably a lot easier to be happy with them than it was at that time.

How about that? Yeah, I do think, I think there's almost like no bad guy in this scenario. It's just like, that is his style. It's just like that is his style. It's a style that you may not agree with, but it has obviously had great success in other avenues, has had success developing quarterbacks. I mean, he has one shot, didn't work out,

but would a different quarterback respond differently? Very possibly. Like it may have been a specific thing to a specific guy but i do think his coach he'll probably and i think from what he said has learned like you can maybe adjust your coaching style to certain personalities especially when that personality is like the most important position on the football field right so i i do think there's it's just unfortunate um for both parties and i think they're both better off though for it i'll have just where they're at totally agree and defensive players are wired differently than quarterbacks that is obvious and but sometimes it's just a

personality fit and it can get ugly if it's not a good one mike zimmer and teddy bridgewater were super close they loved each other i mean i don't know like sometimes it works with somebody and sometimes it doesn't work with somebody else uh okay last one from you i want you to talk me into a team that was horrible last year being good this year so last year around this time what would you have said about the houston texans you would have said well you know look they win five games, that's pretty good for them. And they want a playoff game. So who is the team this year that you're going to look at and go?

Right now here on August 21st, we think this team stinks. But you know what? I could see them shocking the world and actually being way better than we expect. I'm not sure anyone's saying this team stinks, but they did draft top five last year. And I think they make the playoffs. I think I bet good money. They make the playoffs.

It's the chargers. I think the chargers are just, and now it's maybe, you know, everyone, even last year when they did draft top five, they thought it was like a big underperformance, but I think the change from Brandon Salia to Jim Harbaugh is cannot be

understated. How big that like Jim Harbaugh, every stop has got guys to overperform. You know, he won 36 games his first three years in San Francisco after they went six and 10, I think the year prior to him showing up and get two quarterbacks too. They went and won those games with three straight

NFC Championship games. He knows how to get the most out of guys. We've seen it at Michigan. The talent that they've put into the NFL has routinely underperformed. He won a lot of games with a lot of guys who have not come to the NFL and been stars. Hopefully, JJ McCarthy turns that around for you guys.

But truly, a lot of their first round picks, top 100 picks, kind of have fizzled out. So routinely he's gotten the most out of his teams. And you have an elite quarterback, right? Like, once you have that guy, the rest kind of can fall in place. And I think it definitely has from an offensive line perspective that O-line looks, at least this preseason,

from what I saw, like it could be a top-ten unit in the NFL. Obviously, health and the charge of the O-line don't get along, but very much looks the part, at least this precedes from what I saw, like it could be a top 10 unit in the NFL. Obviously health and the Chargers don't get along, but very much looks the part at least for now. So I think that's the one team where it's like, who's going to go worst to first. Now maybe not first in the division with the Chiefs, but with their schedule, you know, 31st ranked schedule into the NFL in terms of difficulty versus what the Chiefs

have to play. They could, they could definitely go first in that division. You just can't understate coaching. And I think that once you reach a certain level of coaching, that everyone's really close to each other in that top 15, that the difference between number one and number 15 might not be that much. But the number between 15 and 30 is enormous. And I would have put Brandon Staley about 30 in the league for last

year. And I would definitely put Jim Harbaugh on the top 15. I will give you three teams on my side. Cause I think that's a decent talk me into, I mean, coaching is just such a big deal. Uh, three on the NFC side. And you can tell me which one you like the most Washington, Arizona, and Carolina, I think are all teams that were pretty bad and have a chance to be the surprise team. Which one of those would you prefer? Give me Arizona in those. I do think that starting a rookie quarterback for the commanders,

especially with that O-line, I'm worried. And we're talking about coaching. Cliff Kingsbury and what he's done does not inspire me. Confidence right out the gate, I'll just say. Arizona has a franchise quarterback at minimum with a now number one wide receiver. That's a good starting point. I think their O-line is the best O-line we've seen from them in probably the last three or four years. Defensively is still the massive question mark,

but I think Jonathan Gannon, as we saw with the Eagles last year is a good defensive mind. And the Eagles obviously take a massive step back, despite not really taking a step back in terms of talent. I think he knows what he's doing. And I think he now has a few more pieces this year to get the job done. Even if on paper, it's really not,

you know, it's really not, you know, it's probably a bottom five unit. I think he has them outperform that though. And tough division, but I think that team could, you know, be a 10 and seven. If everything goes right,

especially, you know, when you're the last place team, you get that easier schedule. All right. 40 minutes into the podcast. I'll drop a little, a little nugget for you that two That two people with knowledge of the situation

have strongly praised Jonathan Gannon in belief that he can be a very good head coach and what he did last year can transfer over to this year. I agree with you. Arizona would have been my pick as well. That there were a couple viral clips that were very awkward of jonathan gannon early yeah that was weird uh that was weird but yeah so i think that that shaped what people thought

of him as a coach but i have heard just the exact opposite that he uh has connected with the team extremely well that from the schematic perspective, there's a good understanding there. And the roster perspective, they've improved significantly since last year. It's a team nobody's talking about, but Kyler Murray is 100% healthy. And when he is, he is a top half of the league quarterback, at least. And at his absolute best, I think he's one of the better quarterbacks in the league at times. So I like that pick. I think that that's realistic.

It's a tough division, but I could see them being on that fringe of the playoffs with Jonathan Gannon. How did we do? Did we talk each other into stuff? I feel like we did. I think we did maybe too much of talking each other into stuff.

Maybe the game wasn't hard enough. I don't think I convinced you the Packers aren't making the playoffs though. I wasn't more convincing there. That's true. And I'm not sure I'm totally convinced that Sam Darnold is making the playoffs though so no that's yeah i wasn't more convincing there that's true and i'm not sure i'm totally convinced that sam darnold is making the playoffs with the vikings either but uh we'll we'll see i think you said it goes you said could be could be a playoff i think you framed it in a way that didn't necessarily play off caliber i think is what you said

yeah i should have made it hotter i should have made it hotter i should have said win the division you know go go for the super bowl i should have made it tougher on you uh pushing the pile is the new show i have already uh downloaded it myself or subscribed to it or whatever you're supposed to do right here pushing the pile oh there you go and uh there i go yeah i've been listening to it you and kyle long. I am super happy for you, man, with where your career has gone, uh, for PFF now to CBS sports. So as always love having you on and I'm super happy we could get together and we'll definitely do it again and,

uh, talk each other into stuff. So for sure, I'm in always happy to come out. It's always a pleasure pushing the pile. Go download it. Football.