Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Chip Scoggins and Judd Zulgad tell Vikings draft stories

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Matthew Coller talks with Star Tribune Columnist Chip Scoggins and his former beat partner Judd Zulgad about what they remember from the drafts of Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Christian Ponder, Cordarrelle Patterson and the most recent draft regret. Plus their predictions about what is going to happen next. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

hey everybody welcome to a very special episode of purple insider matthew collar here along with the old vikings access boys chip scoggins of Star Tribune, Judd Zulgad as well. They used to be the grandest duo on the Vikings beat. They used to have terrible tweets when Twitter was just starting from Vikings training camp. You know them so well. And I wanted to put together this episode of some Vikings draft stories going back with you guys

from when you were on the beat to the present, because we're all waiting for Kwesi to make this trade. So while we wait, this is what we're going to talk about. So I want to begin by going back as far as you guys started on the beat and the first drafts you covered, which for you Zolgad was 06 and for Chip was 2008. And I think, Judd, a great place to begin this conversation was the Adrian Peterson draft pick and what you remember about that selection. Because I remember going into that draft, and of course, I was like, I don't know, in college maybe, but I remember thinking what Adrian Peterson should be the number one

pick. Cause this was back in the day, Judd, this was Sean Alexander is the best player in the NFL, not these quarterbacks is a running league. So what do you remember about that, that decision to take Adrian Peterson and how he kind of fell ish into the Vikings lap? I remember being very surprised as the slide began. So like, and it got to what, seven. So it wasn't this, you know, Moss-onian slide into the twenties. But I remember the draft started

and Peterson was again, a huge name. And at the time the running back position was still, for lack of a better term, respected. And so the draft starts and it's one of those where whoa that that's still interesting and then uh where i realized it might come to fruition though was i want to say it was washington washington might have been picking right before the vikings and they didn't take him. And I think they needed, if I'm not mistaken, at that time, they needed a running back and they passed. And it was one of those where you're like,

okay, somebody's got to stop this fall. And it makes sense. It's the Vikings. Only they had Chester Taylor, who they had signed in 2006 and and he had come from being the backup in Baltimore to Jamal Lewis had been a bell cow and was really good in 06 but yeah it was Washington took at six they took Leron Landry who I think the Vikings liked I think we've been told that the Vikings liked him and so they took him and it's like, okay, are you going to pass up with, but with, by the way, an offensive coach, are you going to pass up a running back who is seen as a generational talent? And I don't think this was the beginning of being afraid of running backs, Matthew.

I seem to recall this was more of an injury history problem and he was coming off like a collarbone or a shoulder yeah because he he eventually he showed up to camp and had like a small protective thing for it but anyway the vikings took him and to be it made perfect sense and chester taylor the the funniest thing about the whole uh chester taylor story was so he had been the bell cow in 06 he had a really nice season could catch you could block uh could definitely run but i remember in the clean out the locker room day at winter park he was like spent chester taylor walked out and and i and we talked to him and he's like oh man i gotta i gotta go take some time off and blah, blah, blah.

And I always thought, you know what? He probably doesn't hate this. He's still going to make a ton. He's still going to play some, especially since it turned out that AP was not really a three down back. But I just remember Chester Taylor, I think he wanted that top role, but then he really got it, and he was like, oh, this is a lot. So I wasn't sure that he was as upset as fans thought.

But, yeah, it was too obvious. Somebody had to break that fall, and that's where the Vikings did it in Spielman and Childress more so, took Peterson. So, Chip, was 07 your first season on the beat? No, 08. So I did Gophers Football 0 oh seven and then so the draft probably the draft of oh eight was my first one of my first like official duties on the on the beat with okay so by the yeah by the time you got to the privilege of working with judd's old gad it was already

it was already clear but since you were you were in town already covering football, I mean, how fast was it, do you remember, that everyone knew the greatness of Adrian Peterson? Because as you mentioned, Judd, it wasn't immediate that he was a three-down back, if he ever was really a three-down back. And there might have been still some critiques of his game. In my memory, I only remember fantasy football and being like, okay, wow, they've got this superstar. Was it a longer process to you?

No, I mean, it was already well-established before I got on the beat. I, you know, I didn't cover him in training camp, but I covered Percy Harvard in training camp and I'm sure we'll get to him. When you have players like that, that are so much more gifted athletically that are off the charts, it shows up. I remember the first OTA like we had with Percy. You're like, okay, this is different.

You know, the way he runs, the way he gets out of breaks, everything about him is just different. You know, if he can stay healthy, he's going to be great. And I got to imagine the writers that were there watching Adrian in that first offseason saw the first thing. And then, you know, obviously he has the monster game as a rookie where he sets the record and and he's just like this lightning combination of lightning bolt and power and he didn't run out of bounds he ran guys over and ran away from him and so by the time I got on the beat that his second year it was you knew that this guy was special. When did you know, Judd? Well, I think he was a training camp guy.

He just had a presence about him. And, I mean, he was such an athlete that it was pretty clear he was special. Now, the interesting thing, though, is in Brad Childress' fashion, he would not make Peterson the lead back immediately. So this was a, oh uh oh god how long was it because we kept asking brad and he got progressively more and more annoyed because chester taylor continued to start so it's like it's chester's job it's chester and and i mean they split carries don't get me wrong he didn't ice out ap but he also didn't make him the clear

cut starter and i i'd say if there's one moment, though, that stood out really early, it was the, it was like the first game where you saw Peterson and there was just such a dominant presence there. But yeah, I think now, I think if Kevin O'Connell got his hands on a guy like that, he might plug him in pretty quickly brad didn't want to but there have been a few guys as chip said percy too where there's just an athletic uptick that it's very very clear there's not going to be a lot of like struggling to fit in like you got to get stronger son adrian peterson didn't need to get stronger yeah like you like, you know, when you watch Justin Jefferson go through individual drills, it was like, there's one guy that stands out here that's above everyone else.

It's just obvious that you don't have to be some super scout to see when a guy sticks out because he's just so physically gifted and the things, it's so smooth. That's the thing I think you notice with Adrian, it was just the power and speed that you just had. You didn't see that really that combination with Percy. I just thought it was like everything about him, like that quick twitch, smoothness, and then it breaks. It's like, man,

he's just so fluid as an athlete. And so, um, yeah, it's kind of the football thing. It's like, you gotta earn your way. You gotta earn your playing time. We're not just going to give you to baloney. It's just, just give them the ball, you know? you know well well that's what they have to do now anyway with rookie contracts is you want to get as much out of that guy as you possibly can especially even with running backs now that wasn't that way back then that was pre uh the the cba that we have now so then there was negotiations and the guy would get a big contract right away and that could go bust. And it was a totally different dynamic.

That 07 draft, by the way, Adrian Peterson, Sidney Rice, and then in the fourth round, Brian Robison, that was a really great draft for them. And of course, Tyler Thigpen in the seventh round, who they eventually sadly lost to the Kansas City Chiefs. Is there a story? Is there a Tyler Thigpen story? Yes.

Childress ended. The reason why Childress brought a halt to the joint workouts with the Chiefs who were in River Falls at the time was because the Chiefs got a look at Thigpen, who Childress wanted to get through to the practice squad and really liked. And in retrospect, he wasn't totally wrong. But like for a seventh round pick, he had some talent. And he was livid that the Chiefs were like, this kid's okay. And plucked him off waivers. And I remember that.

I remember that. I think Chipper was an after practice session with Brad. And he was fuming that Tyler Thigpen and and of course Rice is a great story because you know for the first couple years couldn't stay healthy yeah he had some talent like not it it's not like oh my god he's great but he had some talent and then of course the Favre oh he was he was he was the Javon Walker of the Vikings in 2009. He was the guy that Brett Favre chose to make a star. Yeah.

Yeah. I love that Tyler think Penn story. That's the classic coach getting upset about something that doesn't matter really at all in that seventh round pick. Well, let's skip forward because the OA draft chip, your first one was not all that, uh, intense. I would say you had, uh, uh, John David booty was their second pick. That was in the fifth round. They had like four picks that year. If I remember correctly, I think, uh, Johnson,

right. The safety, they needed the longer way to safety. Right. Yeah. It was, it was five, five total picks. One of them was sullivan though so like that turned out that was a good he was a late round like fourth or fifth round right fifth six yep six oh wow that's yeah great pick yeah the vikings um back then did not have rick spielman's at least 10 picks because even in 08 or in in 09 i mean they got one two three four five and the first two were percy harvin and phil loadhold so they were they were drafting their butts off back then but i want in oh nine. I mean, they got one, two, three, four, five. And the first two were Percy Harvin and Phil Lodeholt. So they were, they were drafting their butts off back then, but I want to talk about Percy Harvin. He's such an interesting one to me because Adrian Peterson is non-controversial.

They picked a great player who turned out to be great and only much later would become a controversial in town, but not as far as the draft went with Percy Harvin. If you watched any Florida football ever in your life, you were like, sweet Moses. This is the best football man I've ever seen. And yet he ends up 22nd. So chip, uh, what do you remember from that? And sort of the controversial nature of Percy Harvin? Well, it was, it was that off season.

Judd, I don't know if you remember this, but I'm sure you do. Rick Spielman had a pre-draft press conference. One of the regular things leading up where he told us unveiled the red dot. Remember we're red dotting guys. Yep. So he had told us we put, I went back and looked at the day, 78 red dots on draft eligible players that we will not touch can't get he told you can't get the dot off right and this is from either character issues or medical injury history so these are these are they've gone through all

the prospects and put a red dot on the guys that under no circumstances will they touch and then it comes out that percy harvin think, failed the drug test at the combine, the marijuana test. Yep. And so we were thinking, does he have a red dot? Does he not? We knew they needed a wide receiver. And so back then, the press conference, let's say the draft was Thursday night, right?

We'd have that press conference on Tuesday with Brad Childress. Well, it came out on Monday or that day that he had flown down to Florida privately, secretly, because he wanted to meet with Percy in person on his own, meet his family, hang out with him for the day to get a better sense of, uh, kind of his character and what, you know, what he was about. And as soon as we found that out, it was like if Percy Harvin's there, whatever they're picking, they're taking him, right?

Because Brad Childress is not going down there just on a whim. He's going down there as a dot in the I, cross the T type of thing. And so sure enough, when he was there available, I, the beat crew kind of felt like, okay, this is who they're going to take and they did. And, you know, it was, I don't know if it was controversial, but it was, it was the, the, the symmetry between the we're red dot and everyone, we're not going to, you know, we're not going to take any chances on injuries or character flaws. And then they, you know, we're not going to take any chances on injuries or character flaws. And then they, you know, they took Percy, who had a lot of publicity for as a guy who failed the drug test at that combine.

So but. Again, another guy who was too talented to bypass and they felt comfortable taking him. Yeah. And and that was also a time and we didn't find this out till i think shortly before brad was was fired because he offered it up in a conference call with the lions beat people that brad had the final say on the 53 so he was the de facto gm so in other words that red dot just came off like i'm sure rick's like you gotta be careful and breath like bleep you but the the interesting thing about that draft to uh chip and matthew is this so that is what that's pre-farve yes but that team was ready to cook i mean i think one reason why they went and got brett was the quarterback play was not good but they were literally adding for for all of the we're going to take the best

player available for the long term. Because, I mean, Percy was a shooting star, and he crashed at some point there. But if you go back, those first two picks, they solved a wide receiver slot type of guy and a right tackle. And so, like, you were literally setting yourself up. And that's why I think the Favre thing became so, so important. I remember, I think it wasavre thing became so, so important. I remember,

I think it was before that season at some point, in fact, it was before, it was right before Favre came back in training camp that the late great John Clayton came to camp. And he was basically like, this is a Superbowl team. If they get a quarterback, this is a Superbowl team. Like this team is phenomenal. This team is so talented. And like that was in large part, Percy played such a huge role. And think about now, if you plugged a Percy Harvin into an offense at that age now, like he was great then. But that was like the unfounded freak years, right? You didn't know what to do with the – now, my God, he'd be incredible because you'd know how to use him exactly. Judd, help me with the timing on this.

What was it – because they always had the draft and they had that rookie camp and then they would bring in and they would start otas was it the rookie camp where he he got to atlanta and turned back because of the migraines and didn't yeah he supposedly threw up in the in the airport and was i went home no i think he was taken by ambulance to a hospital pumped with fluids and flown home and that was just that money camp yeah that was a rookie camp that was the immediate camp after the draft that's right and that's where you know the first thing was like you know we we didn't know about the migraine history or anything like that but then when he came for the yeah that's what it was then he came for the full team so it wasn't just the rookies and draft picks and you know undrafted guys it was the full team and there, he's out there with Sidney Rice and was Barry not Barry and was there

and, and, you know, established veterans and Percy jumps out on the field. You're like, you know, this guy is going to be really good. But it was always something. Hey, U.S. cellular customers, I've got good news. So don't hit that skip forward button just yet. I'm talking about their special customer event, Us Days. What's Us Days? It means exclusive offers just for their customers, just to say thanks.

Like up to $1,200 to upgrade to any new phone no i didn't misread that that's up to twelve hundred dollars off they must really like you all us days at us cellular exclusive offers just for you just to say thanks right now us cellular customers get up to twelve hundred dollars to upgrade to any new phone. Terms apply. Do you guys think that in today's medical world, mental health world, and also legal marijuana world, that Percy Harvin and his problems would have been mitigated more or at least better understood? Because with some guys, it seems like to me, Percy Harvin had legitimate mental health issues, which is a common

thing for people to have in society. And now we approach that as an, let's try to help the guy work through it in every way that we can, rather than, oh, he's just a problem. And I feel like maybe it wouldn't all have been solvable with him because even we see Stefan Diggs getting traded again. So it's not, it's not always something you can fix, but I feel like with him that there may have been a much better chance for him to have consistently succeeded had we have better resources than we had that. For sure. I mean, it's more discussed. It's more accepted. It's more out and open. There's more resources available to athletes. I don't think it would have been – I think there still would have been

issues that would have come up with Percy. But I think just the understanding and probably grace that he would have been given for some of the battles that he had. There's no doubt it would have been viewed and probably handled a little bit differently than what it was back then. Childress was not the right coach, too. And 09 was largely Favre's team. And, you know, Favre could get along with everybody. And so Percy and Favre were like just huge buddies,

at least for their age discrepancies. The one thing I question about what you just said, though, is this. Percy didn't end up coexisting very well with Pete Carroll. Yeah. So like Pete Carroll, like like I would have said if Percy had been drafted initially by the Seahawks and never played there, but but hadn't played there. Like that was the weird thing i think percy i think percy's mental health issues probably went beyond like the ability of a football team to help but that's what made to taking him in 09 so perfect like he fit like that team should have gone to

dare i say a super bowl and they should have won the super bowl yeah and then if they do do you even care that percy doesn't last that long here? So, like, it was the perfect pick. And that's where I think the Vikings made a very smart move by saying, I don't care if he's got 18 red dots. We're ready to win. And he makes us instantly better. And I don't think Sidney Rice, Chipper, is as good if Percy's not here

because you have to pay attention to Percy. Sure. Judd, remember the final training camp practice we're down to make this is all through the farms not coming far as coming far yeah so they're having in the quarterbacks are Tavares and Sage Rosenfelds and it is a the practice is just they can't completely pass I mean the defense absolutely dominates it offense just is just – they can't complete a pass. I mean, the defense absolutely dominates it. The offense is just not clicking. It's not working. And we're thinking – this is the last practice to add in Matthew.

And we're thinking Childress is going to come off here and this field in his head is absolutely going to explode. He's going to have a meltdown. He's going to be angry. And it was just like – he was just, you know, like whistling while you work. It was like, he couldn't have been in a better mood. And we're like, huh? It was weird.

And then three days later, helicopters above where we're parking. Here comes Brett. Here comes Brett Favre to save the day. We should have known by his mood that something was amiss. And don't, don't forget to uh to go back to 2008 while the vikings didn't have a first round pick the reason why they didn't was the jared allen trade with kansas city so like i mean that team had used the draft and you know if i was to tell you that that you could have taken jared allen in the first round of that draft you'd be pretty pleased with

that so like there was uh there was a fundamental and and this is where you know what we didn't give brad enough credit brad childress was not a great coach he was a pretty damn good personnel guy though and so he had used the draft and or things surrounding the draft to make some pretty savvy moves to take a team that had been okay not great to being you know by 2009 a pretty big power percy harvin was a big part of that as you brought up that peterson draft class and yeah and trading your first pick in 08 and that was a costly trade i mean if you go back and look um the vikings took a real chance with a guy again who might have had a red dot or six and it worked out yeah yeah I mean they were able to build by the time Favre got there such an incredible team and

you see the key pieces that came together through the draft and now it's time to fast forward a little bit here and I I just want to this is like a trigger warning like they put on tv like there may be images that are disturbing there may be images that are disturbing. There may be commentary that is disturbing as we get to the 2011 NFL draft where Christian Ponder is the first. We don't talk about that. You may want to. Look, Christian Ponder's name on my show has been banned from fans bringing it up in the chat because everybody wants to compare every potential Vikings quarterback pick to Christian Ponder. So the big question that I want to know for you guys,

because I hear about this constantly, I was not here yet. I was a few years away from arriving when the Vikings picked Christian Ponder though. I was just kind of breaking into media at that point. And I remembered thinking Mike Mayock is probably right on draft night that they reached for Christian Ponder. But I also thought, well, geez, they got Adrian Peterson and they should be still a great team and so forth. So I thought, well, this, this could work. I think the only place to go with this is why it didn't work. Why Christian Ponder failed. Desperation at that position led you to taking a player who in a spot that he shouldn't be taking it.

And we dumped on Christian Ponder for so many years and it became so just, you know, you couldn't discuss him without criticizing him to where it got a point to, you know, for couldn't discuss him without criticizing him. To where it got a point to, you know, for me it reached a point, it's like, no, wait a second, he didn't draft himself. So let's shift the focus to the person that made the decisions and not ponder. But, you know, after the 2010 disaster and Favre, you know,

that was a nightmare and he was going, everybody knew they were taking a quarterback. They had to. Leslie Frazier and everybody, they didn't basically try to hide it, much like Kevin O'Connell and the staff is doing right now. You know what they're going to do. And they reached. They reached for a guy who, you know was not ready for that that spot they reached and the problem was they were they plopped him into an incredibly dysfunctional situation as well so when

Childress got fired and then Frazier got the job because he came in and you know coach well Chipper and I saw it they go to Philadelphia Philadelphia. We're stuck there for three days. They plan a Tuesday and they beat a pretty good team. And what they did was, and this was the craziest thing. What they did was they gave Frazier a defensive guy, 50% of the personnel say, and Spielman, who was not GM yet, if I am correct, 50%. And I remember being at the owners meetings. I want to say they were in Orlando that year in March and talking to Frazier and, you know, less is a pretty straight forward guy. He's not going

to BS you too much. And he made it very clear. I want a veteran QB. Like I want somebody who can step in and win. And it was very clear that Rick was like, well, I want to draft a QB. And so you literally had, if not warring factions, two very important factions that need to work together, pulling apart. They both made their own choice and they were both equally as crappy. So the veteran QB is Donovan McNabb, who Chip and I had covered, I believe in 2010 in a game for Washington, Matthew, we're seeing him play. We're both like his arm is shot. He has no arm left. And that's a game that the Vikings won. And so that was Les' guy. And Ponder was Spielman's guy. And if you recall, McNabb was out of shape going to all the McDonald's and Arby's that he could.

And he started the season and it was, I think it was a night game. It was a primetime game in Chicago at halftime. The Vikings are terrible. They look terrible. McNabb is absolutely skipping passes. The bounce passes. Yeah. The bounce passes to Shanko.

I mean, Shanko was like being thrown basketball balance passes with a football and they bring in Ponder at halftime. And if Christian Ponder ever did have a chance, I don't know if he did or not, but if he was ever going to be developed correctly, that was a play-by-play of how not to do it. And so from the very top, from the Wilfs who gave out dual control, which was idiotic, and eventually pretty quickly thereafter was taken away, they screwed the pooch there. They absolutely screwed the pooch. And Ponder was caught in the middle. And look, he might have been terrible regardless, but you literally had McNabb and Ponder, both guys hoping that they could save them,

and both were absolutely not the guys. And I think they're, you know, at least Rick's judgment or thought process was, I'm tired of having stopgaps at quarterback. I'm tired of having veterans coming in here only here for a year, two years, short time. Let's find that long overdue, long awaited franchise quarterback. And hey, we got Adrian Peterson.

We'll be a run first and this will be his best friend. And it'll remove some of the, you know, a lot of the pressure from him. He won't have to do much. Well, sounds good in theory or maybe in principle, but when it, you know, when you try to win that way and the different factors, it just didn't work. And, you know, we all love Ponder as a person. He was a great guy to deal with. Took a lot of criticism with a lot of grace and understanding.

But I remember, you know, during the worst times there when it was clear that it was done you just felt like okay they need to move on and you know let this guy just have some peace you know because it was just everything was being dumped on his lap you know well and i know this feeling, even just from watching some wide receiver cornerback and possibly safety picks fail who are first rounders. It's hard to watch a man drown because it starts off where you kind of know something's not right. And then you go, well, maybe,

and then we have that off season and okay, well, he could take the next step and then he doesn't. And then everyone knows it's over. And the guy's still here. If it was a fourth rounder, he'd just be cut, but he's still there. And it's just uncomfortable. I guess my only question about ponder is when I look through the history of successes and failures, oftentimes they're connected really well with supporting cast coaching coaching, fit with the organization. Was Ponder just not good enough or was there a world where, had it been a little different, had there been different receivers,

had there been different coaching, had it been not the McNabb and maybe he developed for a year, or was it just never there? So you're saying if you put him on this Vikings team now with Kevin O'Connell and Justin Jefferson, how would he fare back then? Probably a little bit better, but I just don't know that he had the arm talent, Judd. I don't think O'Connell would ever take him. Yeah, I don't see it, Matthew.

Not saying he couldn't play a little bit better if the personnel and coaching and all that was elevated, but I sort of think I would tend to say no because quarterbacks still can rise above circumstances, right? And he was unable to do that. And, you know, this goes back to Peterson in that 2012 season and how great he was that year to get that team to the, to the playoffs. That was a special individual performance by a guy. One of the craziest stats that I ever ran across

was that running Adrian Peterson was more efficient than passing the ball that year, which you almost never see. I mean, if you, if you adjust for sacks and interceptions, handing the ball off to the running back was literally a better play for the Vikings than it was to drop back to pass. And that's just, even by 2011, that's not something you run across very often. I agree with you guys. I don't think it was ever there. There was never that ability to rise above anything. And he also just didn't have a cockiness that you see, even if someone isn't the most talented, if they have a self-belief that is through the roof, sometimes they can

overcome the shortcomings of their physical ability. It doesn't seem like he ever really had that. Judd, do you think they fell in love with the intangibles in terms of who he was as a person and the way he projected himself. Because he's a very articulate, bright, well-thought-out, high-character guy, and you do wonder if they thought, well, if that kind of made them overlook to some degree or a lot of degree the physical tools. I think Rick didn't trade up and and if you recall that quarterback uh draft was you know a lot of a lot of first round guys that failed and i think rick i think rick panicked i think rick just said i gotta take one i gotta take one who's left who's

left who's left and uh took ponder and if you guys recall, and this was, at the time, it seemed harsh. It turned out to be spot on. It was Trent Dilfer at ESPN at the time who came out and savaged the pick. He said, this is an awful pick. Way too high. He doesn't have the talent. And at the time, I was like, my God, this is really harsh. But he was right. But I mean, I heard Rick,

I think it was during training camp last year, he was on a serious satellite show talking about the QBs and stuff. And he basically said, I still have a job if I could have found one. So like he fully acknowledges, I mean, his kryptonite was unfortunately for him, probably the most important position in sports. And he's exactly right.

Like Rick, you know, the Bridgewater thing, we can revisit certainly because that's also bad luck but if you guys uh uh recall the story on that one that was norv turner is the guy bridgewater had that terrible pro day and norv said let me go down to miami and work him out myself he came back and said i would draft him that was not rick so like i don't know that rick ever really found one and And that's where O'Connell should be a different ball game. I would hope he at least deserves the chance. Yeah. And sometimes it is just bad luck. Sometimes teams have reached on quarterbacks that nobody thinks is going to work out and they end up working out. And it just never

did with ponder, but it's always fascinating to pick apart all the layers of how that decision got made and why it didn't work. Now, the following season, they could have sucked for luck, but they didn't suck quite enough. Man, you know, just ever so close. Now, Matt Khalil is another case of a guy who did not end up working out, and he was great at the start and then came, came apart as it went along the injuries. I also think he didn't love football that much. Um, but that draft night must have been insane for you guys. There was the, the multi, you know, first round draft picks, you're picking at the very top of the draft. And the second guy in the 2012 draft, Harrison Smith is still here and has made a Hall of Fame case. That's an

interesting one. Yeah, the Matt Khalil one's still a conundrum to me, Judd and Matthew, because when we watched him that rookie year, you're like, this guy's going to be their left tackle for 10 years. He's going to be a multiple pro bowl type guy. And it just went downhill. And some of that's injuries, the back, right? But it just, he was the guy you had such high expectations after his initial year. And it just, you know, for whatever reasons, and I think there's more than one, that one didn't pan out. Folks, if you don't know what a VPN is, you might actually need one and not even realize it. If you already know the positives, you also might not be using the right product. In either case, you want to check out Surfshark.

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And luck's, I mean, I still think luck was a generational talent. Now, unfortunately a certain GM who might have a job with the Vikings right now, didn't get him the infrastructure, the offensive line that might've helped extend his career. But if you guys go back to that one,

what pisses me off to this day is they had three wins, right? Three wins that season, two of them were unnecessary. You beat Arizona fair and square here at the Metro dome, but you should have been a one win team because if you look at it, they had a win. I want to say against the Panthers in which it might have been graham gano missed a field goal and the vikings won and then of course there's the famous adrian peterson shreds his knee game where poor les frazier goes to the podium hooray hooray merry christmas christmas eve they

beat washington in a game that they only won because, if I'm not mistaken, Ponder got hurt. They put Joe Webb in. Washington had no clue what to do. And if Ponder hadn't got hurt, they'd lose that game. So forget Matt Kalil. Forget the whole first round because you could have had – I mean, imagine that.

And imagine if you protect luck, Matthew. Like, think about how this could have had, I mean, imagine that. And imagine if you protect Luck, Matthew. Like, think about how this could have played out. And that's a generational talent right there. I think that was Leslie's after postgame thing. It was. Hooray. Hooray. He's like, no, not hooray.

Not hooray. You're missing on me. And Peterson's knee is on the field. Okay, so there is a thought that even though they did not get Andrew Luck, and by the way, in the subsequent years, they did not put together good offensive lines. So that's worth pointing out as well. I watched a few quite bad offensive lines.

I am certain certain though, that Andrew Luck would have taken this franchise to places that it rarely ends up going consistently had he been the quarterback. But there's also another take here that if Matt Khalil had been the version that he was in his first year. And I think this was just me showing up as he was leaving, but I got the impression that he was mentally soft because when he went to carolina he said something about how he wasn't coached correctly or whatever it was like oh okay i see i get it now i get it it's you're you're failing and you don't know how to pull yourself out of it that didn't he throw a snowball at a fan or

something like stuff like that he put put his hat off. Yeah. Oh, the fan was tackling him outside. The gopher's paying me to put his hat off. Stuff like that. You usually don't see from guys who are mentally tough. So, but if Khalil turns out to be great and years later,

they end up drafting Teddy Bridgewater anyway, and they have him as that rock solid superstar, rather than scrambling in 2016. It's just a total disaster. 2017, they had to spend all that money on an average left tackle and Riley Reif and Mike Remmers. And it just did, you know, they never really truly built that good offensive line. There was a effect of him failing the way that he did that impacted them for many years.

And it took until Christian Derrissaw until they could actually find their guy. But I don't want to go just entirely year by year, but I do want a quick take on 2013 with three first round draft picks. I mean, that was the, you guys worn out the fingers that night. That was crazy. You were there that night though, right? The best part of that night that was crazy you were there that night though right the best part of that night is they have you know they take sherry floyd and xavier rhodes with the first two

picks and spillman is down in the field house this is when we're at the old winter park and he's down in the field house doing his press conference uh talking about the two picks, and I see – you can see he's starting to become distracted. And I see Tom West, the longtime PR guy, kind of giving him signals, you know. And Spillman says, we're going to have to pause right here. I'll be back. And he runs upstairs, right, makes the pick for Cordero Pattersonson runs back down and he says where were we that was that was a great moment um yeah three first round picks I mean it was uh uh as opposed what was the year we had no first round picks it was the Dalvin Cook year right

and then uh to get three that year was you you know, that was a busy night. That was what's sad, too, is if between injuries and if Cordero had been used correctly, that was a really good first round because Sheree Floyd is one of the, I think, saddest stories. Sheree Floyd is a really good player. Like he and the doctor screwed him up. Like there's no question that, that, that was one of the few times that you could have issued a press press release that said Vikings defensive tackle Sheree Floyd underwent unsuccessful surgery. And we have no idea when he'll play again. You know, Zim unfortunately made, made fun of it, but it wasn't funny at all.

That was a really good player. Xavier Rhodes turned out to be a 25 a fantastic pick and they got that one in the Percy Harvin deal correct yes from Seattle which by the way was a good trade when Percy did get dealt that was a nice trade and then Cordero turned out to be a bust as a wide receiver but if you had used him again he's a guy who was also he couldn't really run a route but he he was ahead of his time in skill set, and the Vikings just didn't harness that. So, like, there's a case to be made from a personnel standpoint that that's a pretty good draft.

Injury hurts you, and then Patterson, the coaching staff, just punted on him. That's the thing with Patterson. It's like you take this guy who has unique skill set and try to pigeonhole him into a wide receiver role. Whereas they just didn't, if you're taking him, you're thinking hybrid, we're going to use him in all these different creative ways. And they tried it at different times to, you know, jet sweeps.

But it's just, I don't think they ever really fully understood what they had in Cordero. I remember it, it was the, I think Collar and I were covering the team together at this point. Was it David Montgomery, who was the big, big receiver from green Bay that McCarthy decided to put in the backfield. And Matthew,

we talked about Montgomery. Yeah. Time Montgomery, time Montgomery. And we're like, this guy profiles a lot like cordero why not try that and the vikings never did it and then and i'm not saying cordero turned out to be a perfect player but there was definitely something there and the packer sort of gave you the blueprint

matthew and and the vikings you know zim inim fashion, I think was pissed off by then. Was that Musgrave? Was that Musgrave or Turner that was the OC then? Musgrave, right? Bill Musgrave? Musgrave started out with him and used him in some of those kind of fun ways with tossing pitches and stuff. And he averaged like 12 yards a carry when they did it. And then Turner, I think, was driven crazy by the fact that he couldn't master the offense.

And I remember times, even in 2016, where Shermer tried to use him more, and he did use the bubble screens and stuff. But even then, not the jet sweeps. And when Adrian was out in 2016, they should have just put him in the backfield. I remember writing that article and getting throttled by Vikings fans. You can't put a receiver in the backfield. Like, I think you can. And it's like, yeah, that's probably what you remember, Judd.

We talked about this so much. And then he goes to New England, and Zimmer had to admit, like, I screwed that up. Like, we should have been finding ways to get him the football. They were throwing to, like, Charles Johnson instead of giving the ball to Cordero Patterson. It didn't make a whole lot of sense. That should have been a great pick.

And still, even despite the fact that he's disappointing because of the way he was used, the guy's the greatest kick returner, pure kick returner ever. And that just shows you how good he was with the football. So that's, yeah, that's one of regrets where they actually did get great players. We don't have to go through every single year, but I want to know from you guys recently and then we'll finish on what you think they'll do this year recently what do you think the biggest regret that the vikings have in their last couple of years drafting and i know 2022 is a bad draft but i don't know if i would say that that is the biggest regret that they necessarily should have in their drafting i got one what do you guys think what do you know i i don't know if I would say that that is the biggest regret that they necessarily should have in their drafting I got one what do you guys think what do you Hamilton I don't know I I got

well no that that is but I'd like to take this one last chance to pick on good old Rick Spielman uh the 2020 draft and you got Jefferson okay now he fell to you as well so congratulations great pick Diggs trade actually has worked out really good for you, but unfortunately, God rest his soul. It's the Jeff Gladney pick. I mean, we,

so, so, so there are first, it's rare, but there are first guesses. Okay. And I remember, well,

I mean, hell chip watch this guy's whole career, but I think collar and I watched him a lot too. We all said Antoine Winfield Jr. is special. Like you can tell. And in part because Collar saw the old man in Buffalo and we, Chip, covered the old man here. So if you're like, well, yeah, but he's really small.

Okay, daddy was small too. And he was a big guy. He's bigger than dad. And he was a hybrid linebacker cornerback um if you look at what they passed on to take gladney it's and you know again the kid died it's terrible but that pick was a first guess i think we're all like really and so that's mine i would still say the Hamilton from 2022. And, you know, you could have had him when you see him play for Baltimore

and the lack of really any kind of presence at all so far from Louis Seen. It, you know, you know, that Georgia defense that Laura's Louisine was on was great. So probably everybody looks great at that point. But so and I'm sure the injury probably has had a, you know, an impact on two. But you can't even know now if he's part of your what part of your foundation moving forward. I mean, that that's just a big whiff right now. The only reason that I would say Hamilton, even though it's, it's bad that they didn't pick him is not as impactful as some other worse busts is because Josh Metellus became that guy pretty quickly. And he's maybe

not quite as good as Hamilton, but he was really excellent in that role last year. And that hybrid that we thought didn't exist where there are some other picks. And you mentioned the Gladney one, Judd, not only did they pass up an Antoine Winfield jr, but also a certain Vikings reporter may have been banging the drum for Jalen hurts to be picked and developed behind Kirk cousins to be their future quarterback. I'm just saying, I mean, Jackson, Lamar Jackson, you, you were banging on that drum harder. I think Jackson, I was. Yeah. Because I thought Kirk signed such a short-term deal and Jackson was looked at as a developmental player. Now he obviously got good faster than I expected, but it was the same idea with both guys where

it's like the Packers sit here and draft quarterbacks and develop them and they work. And obviously that happened with the homes as well. Why not try to do that? And instead, no, we need this. And that's why we've gotten to mine, which is 2019 with Garrett Bradbury and Irv Smith Jr. Now we were sold on Garrett Bradbury as the ultimate Gary Kubiak center. The next Tom freaking Nalen is who this guy was supposed to be. And I have never seen a player now he's gotten much better. And I think he's an average quality center now, but at the time I've never seen a man be picked up like a WWE wrestling thing by defensive tackles and launched

into the quarterback. He was not physically ready to come play in the NFL. And they made this desperate draft pick because they just needed a center because Pat Alpine had gotten hurt and had fallen apart, but that's not the worst part of it. Irv Smith jr. Was billed as this hybrid wide receiver tight end. He's going to come in. He's going to do everything. The next draft pick off the board is AJ Brown and the Vikings needed a wide receiver. They had to know at that point, digs was was potentially problematic right so yeah they had digs and thielen but they had to know everybody knew at that point that digs was probably not long for minnesota or at least was some major issues that were going on there and that just doesn't

even discount the cornerback issues that were to come the defense that was coming apart because of old age and they said, we need a number two tight end because Kyle Rudolph is probably going to be gone within the next two seasons and drafting a center right away to fix your problem at center is a desperate flail that completely failed for them. And, and, and non-premium positions. These are positions that you can draft in third round and get usually the same caliber of player that one was totally disastrous in my mind didn't the saints actually take a center who's good in the same draft like in the second or third round uh yes i think yes that

i forget i yeah i forget who it was there were there were other linemen taken that were interior players that turned out okay in that draft yeah unless you have a pro bowl player like hamilton's a perfect example of okay he would have you could have justified that pick easily but like safeties i'm sorry unless i think the guy's going to canton like if i don't have a canton grade on on you and you're a center or safety you ain't a first round pick yeah that was something else that got me um what is the what is the funniest pick for you guys where it was a late rounder and people got super pumped super excited it's easy for me quarterbacks well no no, the German wide receiver that we found on YouTube. Oh, Moritz.

The German YouTube. Moritz. What was it? Borenjurs? Borenjurs, yeah. I remember being at the Winter Park when they drafted him. We're like, this can't be real, right? Like, what are we doing?

German YouTube. Yeah, and then Spillman kept reiterating that we saw clips of him on YouTube and we liked what we saw on YouTube. Like, that's it? Yeah, that was a one-day story. My favorite, and I say this only because he was okay, is Jalen Twyman, who people billed as Aaron Donald. And then he, because he went to Pitt and had a bunch of sacks,

and he was a fire hydrant or whatever and then and again i'm i'm not he's fine then he got shot in the off season and he just like never play and it was just like what is going on i mean this was this was a pick that fan year was that completely crazy over uh that was i believe 2021 yeah 2021 not long ago yeah yeah that and again i only i'm not being inappropriate it's terrible that what happened to him but it was one of those picks where you just could not believe that everyone got as hyped as they were over he would have been a first round pick if he was taking a different year like what and then you know he ends up just never even stepping foot on the field the other one for me was uh joe webb jumping over the bags remember the

the combine thing he they stacked up the bags and he jumped so you knew he had like this incredible athlete like had no idea like what position he was going to be good at but fans went nuts over joe webb because he was super athletic and And when he jumped over those pads, we're like, we've never seen this before. Yeah. All quarterbacks, right? Like, like John David Goody in the fifth round. Can't believe we got him. It's so funny because it's, and I mean, this is to this day, you take a quarterback on day three and fans and fans are still like, okay,

I mean, they, this might be their guy. I mean, it's literally flyers and yes, Brock Purdy and Brady happen, but they're extremely, extremely rare. You know, Jalen Hall, who knows? And then of course, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. So I just love, I love QBs because you could take them in rounds one through seven and there's going to be a certain amount of hype

regardless of what round it's in you know i mean the rest of the day three picture i was like okay a guy might be who knows blah blah blah quarterbacks it's like i wonder if jdb can learn the play i've seen him in college i've seen all his games oh the well now we have the extra layer of tweeting out their highlights which look at this throw the vikings gotta steal no they didn't um mine also for the late rounder was when they drafted the long snapper austin cutting and he was getting a pardon or something to be able to play from the president or whatever and uh at some point at some point and courtney and i once looked back for this quote and we found it,

Zimmer said something to the extent of he shouldn't be shaky as a long snapper because he's been trained for war. And he wasn't trained for war, by the way. That wasn't what he was doing with the military. Mike, every single person in the military is not like... If you've killed man, you can switch the ball. He's been in the theater of war he can go to green bay right if you can storm the beach of normandy you can snap a ball mike come on mike mike didn't even mean it at times and the stuff was funny oh yeah they've trained him for war uh anyway uh so last last thing quick prediction

uh what happens on draft night chip and then judd they're taking a quarterback they're moving up if they can get to three they'll take dray may if they can get to four they're gonna take jj mccarthy all right what do you think judd i think that's probably's probably accurate. Here's the one question, though, and we don't know this for sure, is what's the appetite and is it universal in the building to trade your 2025 first? Because I don't think you're getting a three without it. I have serious doubts about four because there's going to be competition. Denver wants to go up from 12. I think the Giants might go from six to like three or four. Like the Daniels, yeah, that's a good one.

The Daniel Jones contract to me, it would hurt to swallow and let him go after the season, but it can be done. So I think if you put me on the spot, I would say they're going to trade up. They're going to take probably McCarthy. And I would say it's going to be five to the Chargers. I like these predictions. I think you can get out of trading your 2025 first, possibly in a trade with the Chargers.

I like these predictions. I think they're good. I am going to try, just try my hand here at going a try, just, just try my hand here at going a slightly different route, which is the stick and pick, but McCarthy drops to 11 that the, the hype on McCarthy is more than we think, but he's still a first round caliber prospect. And he just, and they don't trade out. Arizona takes a receiver. The Chargers take a receiver. The Giants draft Dallas Turner or Joe Alts

to rebuild their offensive line, and they're going to wait a year and maybe picture Der Sanders next year, and then you end up with Tennessee. Atlanta needs a defensive player, and nobody wants to make this trade up for McCarthy, and they end up picking him there, and then Bo Nix or somebody goes off the board to the Broncos.

And we go from there. That's, that's, that's like my, my hot prediction that I'm trying to, to work through before we get to draft night. Do you think Denver or the Raiders jumped the Vikings though? That's the hard part,

right? That's, that's the hard part. Yep. I don't know. I was going to wait. I don't either. I don't think you can play defense gonna wait i don't either i don't

think you can play defense i think you get to play offense on this one because if you wait you may be left holding an empty bag i'm trying it i'm test casing okay we've got some time before the draft i'm test casing this take that mccarthy is not it's ideal uh it'd be perfect yeah yeah i mean because you're keeping 23 then. So, like, yes. Exactly. If you're a Vikings fan, it's awesome. I just don't – I don't trust teams not to jump me. I don't either.

If that scenario happened, Kweisi and O'Connell will float out of that draft room because that will be their dream scenario. Because it would be so much time being consumed. Could you imagine how much they would be sweating waiting from 4 to 11 somebody's gonna come up and do it well i think that uh they have to be comfortable with multiple ways that this could play out so uh plenty of time to work through all the scenarios for us but this guys i can't tell you how much of a treat this is for me to hear the uh the draft stories uh from back in your early years, working the

beat together as access Vikings with Scoggins and, uh, Zolgad. So thank you both so much for taking the time and doing this. This was really fun. It was everything I dreamed it would be. So thanks so much guys. Really appreciate your time. See you, Matthew. Thank you, Matthew. Appreciate it, man.