Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Crossover special: Matthew Coller joins the Gritiron Gang podcast to pick the All-NFC North team

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

This is a special crossover edition of the podcast with the Gritiron Gang podcast. Matthew Coller joined hosts Nolan Bianchi and Richard Silva to pick an All-NFC North Team ahead of the 2025 season.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Coller here and for this I have something very special for you guys. I was recently a guest on a podcast with two writers from the Detroit News, Nolan Bianchi and Richard Silva, and they brought me on their podcast in order to create a 2025 preseason all NFC North team. So we went through every single position, including kickers and punters. That's all the way at the end. Don't worry.

And decided who the best player at each position is along the entire NFC North. So we had a great conversation, really fun. Those two guys are awesome. And so they sent me the audio over so I could also bring it to my audience as well. So very interested in your response to these. And I hope you guys enjoy the conversation. So here is myself along with Nolan and Richard.

Thanks guys. We'll go position by position. We are going to use the number of slots that the Associated Press has available when they do their first team all-pro voting. So for quarterback, we'll have one, running back two, wide receiver, we'll have three and so forth. Let's start with quarterback

because I think this is a really interesting group. And I think when we did our position by position rankings a few weeks ago this was something that we're like are we just drinking the Kool-Aid because we watched Jared Goff finish fifth in MVP voting last year but you start with Jared Goff you go on to Caleb Williams and this is for 2025 and so you're looking at saying okay well if I think Caleb Williams is going to be that guy under Ben Johnson, maybe he's your selection here. In addition to we've got J.J. McCarthy from the Minnesota Vikings and Jordan Love of the Green Bay Packers, who I think people kind of underrate because he makes some really wacky plays sometimes. It's kind of like Matthew Stafford-esque where it's like, yeah, but he threw that stupid interception.

It's like, yeah, well, he also made two of the best throws I've seen all week in the first quarter. So we'll start there. Do you have any thoughts on on this one? Because I think my I'm going with the hometown team's quarterback, but I'm open to be swayed. I would not pick anyone except for Jared Goff for this, even though I do have some skepticism about this season and how it's going to play out with a new offensive coordinator and with a new center. And I do think that's a huge deal, but the weapons are unbelievable around him. And year after year after year, this guy leads top five offenses. And a lot of times when people rate quarterbacks, they look at, well,

like you mentioned the ath talent, stuff like that. a lot of that. But I look into a season if we're go who can lead the best off like who has the real cap the best season of anybod Jared Goff because of his

of leading elite offenses. We have n an entire season lead an McCarthy has not played b if you're doing it projec McCarthy has a really goo a great season. But I don say that with a high conf it's a great morning cast staff. You just don't know until you really see it. And

with Caleb Williams, I need to be shown that as well before I can buy into it. Because when you get sacked 68 times, I think there's no offensive coordinator that's that bad. There's no offensive line that's that bad that you should get sacked 68 times. And I think maybe it was PFF had him responsible for like half of those basically from his running around and stuff that that to me is a fundamental issue that until he shows he can solve, I can't put them ahead of a quarterback that has led teams to 15 wins, NFC championship, elite offenses. Like I just,

I think Jared Goff is the most underappreciated player in the entire NFL outside of Detroit because it's always like, ah yeah, well, you know, he's got a good team or whatever it's like. But he's now done it with two different franchises where they have been this good offensively. So there's nobody. If he was like a tiny bit faster and ran every once in a while, and if every once in a while. And if every once in a while he like called somebody out in a press conference, did like a really boss ass commercial or something. I think people would talk about him like he was one of the great quarterbacks of this entire generation, uh, which I know is like, gonna make people freak out.

Maybe not on your show, but when I say that on my show, they're like, stop freezing Jared Goff so much. Look at just look at the production. Look at the production. How many how many quarterbacks have led offenses to produce the way that he has. I'm not saying he's Brady. I'm not saying he's manning. But I mean, man, you're like a couple plays away from us looking at him almost like like a Drew Bree Brees where it's an executor of an offense that is not perfect and is not the greatest athlete ever, but always comes back and puts the numbers up time and time again. So when we were doing our quarterback rankings a few weeks ago, me and Nolan agreed on one and four, we had golf and then call it a cop out, but we had JJ at four, just for like you said, they haven't really seen it yet. So we disagreed on Jordan Love versus Caleb Williams. Which quarterback situation would you rather have between those two going forward? Okay, I mean, you're probably gonna so that's a hard one, because we've seen Jordan Love enough to know the flaws. And I have a tough time thinking that Jordan Love can win a Super Bowl, because he is inconsistent and a lot of it is home runner strikeout. And I never, until that

became all of baseball, when I was growing up, I never, right? I never loved those players. I never loved like the Dave Kingman just, you know, or the, uh, a little bit more recently, Ryan Howard for the Philadelphia Phillies. The guy was like, man, the guy strikes out 200 times. I'd love to face him in a clutch moment because he's probably gonna strike out. And that is kind of Jordan love for me, where if you get him on the wrong day, you are screwed. Like he's gonna go off, you're gonna lose that game. Happened on Thanksgiving a couple, what, two years ago to Detroit,

where every bomb just hit and you're like, what are we supposed to do? But going into a game, it does not, it does not terrify me. If it clicks for Caleb Williams, he could be a better quarterback than what Jordan love is, but clicking is far away. Clicking means learning how to play NFL football from kind of scratch at this moment, but also his age. Is he 22? I mean, if it comes together for him,

Sam Darnold didn't become good until what 27. So like if it clicks for him, if you were telling me which quarterback would I rather bet on for the next like five years, I'd probably take Williams just because I think the ceiling is higher. But I think that right now for 2025, I would still have to go Jordan Love

because I still think he's good. He's good enough to get a team into the playoffs and back to back years. It's good enough to get a team into the playoffs and back-to-back years It's good enough to win a playoff game and we don't know that Caleb Williams can be anything Going on a running back here I think there are two players who are gonna stand out above the rest here But I guess we'll wait and see what you guys say if we got Jameer Gibbs David Montgomery both those guys from the Lions Aaron Jones from the Vikings Jordan Mason from the Vikings Josh Jacobs from the Packers and Deandre Swift from the Lions, Aaron Jones from the Vikings, Jordan Mason from the Vikings, Josh Jacobs from the Packers, and DeAndre Swift from the Bears. Thoughts?

I mean, there's not even a conversation here, right? No, no, no. Let's just do it. Jamir Gibbs and DeAndre Swift. Oh, are we picking two? I'm just kidding. We're doing Jamir Gibbs versus Josh Jacobs. Yeah. I mean, I think that has to be what it is just because those guys stand out above. The only argument I would make for Aaron Jones is that he really catches the ball at the backfield at an elite level. He had 50 catches last year and there are a few people who can do that. He also, if we're factoring in like other stuff stuff is one of the best leaders I've ever been

around in my entire life. I don't know that that's the case for someone like Josh Jacobs. If you gave me, if you had one game to play and you're like Aaron Jones or Josh Jacobs, I wouldn't even hesitate. I'd take Aaron Jones for what they're going to do next year, what their fantasy stats are going to be, how much they're going to be leaned on. Can they stay healthy? All those stuff.

You probably go Josh Jacobs, but I might still if we're doing too, I mean, Jamir Gibbs. Yeah, 1500 yards from scrimmage for Aaron Jones last year. I don't know what Josh Jacobs did, but it's hard to imagine that he did significantly better than that. He was good. He was really good. Okay, 16, 1671 last year. All right. Yeah, I mean, I think that's why he was 11th and off. That's a player of the year. Yeah, I think the choice is easy that it's Gibbs and Josh Jacobs,

but I think that there's like that other dynamic that I just wanted to add in as someone who for sure. Yeah, Aaron Jones that like it deserves to be mentioned, but there really isn't a discussion. Those two guys stand out above the rest. Yeah, I mean, that all right. This is where the where the fun begins. I actually think this is kind of another one where where we

start with a couple locks, but maybe there's one that's open. We got wide receiver. We got three slots here. The first one is obviously going to Justin Jefferson. The second one, I believe is obviously going to Amon Ross St. Brown. But from there, I think it's pretty wide open. I put Jameson Williams and Jordan Addison on the same caliber, same tier, different skill sets, of course, but those these fans, they like to bicker at each other about like, who's better? And I'm like, they're kind of like the same different flavors of the same, you know, ice cream.

I'm mad and their overalls are the same. The attributes are different. Yeah. Yeah. And then you go to the Packers five wide receiver twos. You got Jayden Reed, you got Christian Watson, Romeo Dobbs, Matthew Golden, and then down to Chicago, DJ Moore, Roma Dunze and Luther Burden. Where are you guys kind of looking initially for this third wide receiver position here? The hard thing for me is like DJ Moore two years ago is really, really good. And then last year he seemed to be an unhappy guy there in Chicago with the way things were

going because no matter how wide open he was, Caleb Williams didn't see him. And somehow that was worse than Justin Fields. He's probably he probably is the guy though, as far as the most proven who could be a wide receiver one ish. I guess he was in Carolina.

He's sort of like a second tier wide receiver one where Jameson Williams, Jordan Addison, those guys have not shown us that they could have that ceiling as being a wide receiver one that DJ Moore has. I would toss in Jayden Reed into the conversation. I think he's really, really good player. He's kind of unique. But also if you said like for one game, are we going to take Jayden Reed,

Jordan Addison or Jamison Williams? Like, I don't know if Jayden Reed stands way out above those other guys either. So I would probably go DJ Moore as a bit of a reputation pick. Is he going to have the best season? I don't know. Can Caleb Williams throw him the ball? That's what it really comes down to for me. But you guys are right that the first two are so easy.

And the third one you can make a lot of different arguments. And if we're talking production, I should throw in. It's possible that Jordan Addison faces a suspension from his DUI citation from last year. If that happens, it's going to be hard for him to produce at the same level as other guys potentially, but yeah, there are, there are a lot of very good wide receiver two types in this division. Yeah.

I think the answer is DJ more, but like you said, there's, I put three in that next bucket where it's JMO it's Jaden Reed and it's Jordan Addison, not in a particular order, just that those are all three kind of... I think Christian Watson is there too. Not that we're even really discussing the second tier of guys, but I think Christian Watson is kind of on that same caliber too. I think...

One healthy. Yeah, that's obviously part of it. I think if we're just talking like deep threat, I'll take Jammo over Christian Watson, which is why I don't have him there, if that makes sense. Like I think for what that type of player does, I'll take Jamo over Christian Watson, which is why I don't have him there. If that makes sense. Like I think for what that player type of player does, I'll take Jamo. But yeah, Watson to me has just been some really flashy moments and then a lot of meh for him and a lot of injuries for him too. Yeah.

It's kind of all the Packers receivers. Sure. A lot like Jayden Reed is a phenomenal player, unreliable, like plain and simple. That's got to be frustrating. Yeah. I agree. I think we're going DJ more here. We're in agreement. All right. I'm tight end. This is a fun one. TJ Hawkinson, Cole, commit Sam Laporta and Tucker craft. I do like that all these teams have a really good tight end. It

feels appropriate for the NFC North here. This is where you guys on your show probably have to ask yourselves. Like you said, are we being homers by just giving the lions, all these things, but I don't know that you can put anybody above Sam Laporta. TJ Hockinson last year did take a clear step back recovering from the ACL injury and only had a half a season and even half of that half a season was recovering last year did take a clear step back recovering from the ACL injury and only had a half a season and even half of that half a season was recovering and getting back to full speed in the middle of a season.

That's so hard to do coming off of an injury. Hockinson is one of the highest if not the highest paid tight end in the NFL, depending on how much you believe his agents numbers versus the actual numbers of his contract. But Hockinson, I think is a little bit on the one dimensional side where you are talking about him as kind of a giant slot receiver. And it's the reason the Vikings pay their number two tight end a lot of money in Josh Oliver's so they can have somebody who blocks Tucker craft.

I think is a better blocker as far as these starters go than probably anybody else, but is maybe a little less threatening on the receiving side. Laporta to me, though, is... I would pick him. I think he's probably the most dangerous wide-receiving weapon on the field. And with Chicago, Colston Loveland, we don't know what he's going to be. And Col Comet to me is just not really that much of a threat So it would be it would be very close between Florida and Hockett's in we've seen Hockett's and get 90 catches in a season before Vikings and I think he'll be a huge huge weapon for JJ McCarthy

So if I'm making the Hockett's argument, I think that more so with JJ McCarthy that underneath option That guy who could get some yards after catch will be enormous for him. But Laporta's track record over his first couple seasons is so impressive. I'm not sure I can go a different direction. Yeah, I too, I'm going to go Laporta. And but I think what's amazing about the division is I think for my money, this might be the deepest position, the best and deepest position group for all four teams across the board. Because you obviously have Laporta, but multiple teams have to the Tucker craft Luke Musgrave thing you mentioned Josh Alvar with, with TJ

Hawkinson and the Bears now paid a billion dollars, right. And then the Bears with commit and Loveland. It's like, all these teams have to and then lines have Laporta and Brock Rice services that compliment. But there's really like seven or eight tight ends here that are really, really good in the division. So that's, that's, I think, I think it's awesome. I'm going to go with Porta. Cool. Crazy, crazy stat. I wanted to throw you guys out in my prep, but I wanted to double check here. Sam Laporta,

when given a contested catch opportunity, here's a PFF number for you, has made 20 contested catches and 29 opportunities in his career, which is usually like a 50% type of rate. That's amazing. And when Jared golf throws him the football at any time, golf's quarterback rating is 116.8 when throwing the ball to LaForta at any time. I mean, that is that is super stupid, high efficiency for him. And I think it's just his hands stand out to me that anything in his range, he's gonna catch it.

That would put him ever so slightly out of Hawkinson who does have drops from time to time. And I don't think the other guys are quite there. I mean, Kraft is a good player. I do think Jordan Love probably looks over him when trying to just throw it 50 yards down the field too much But I just don't think you can go anywhere else with this All right. We are moving on to the offensive line here

We'll go quickly because I don't really know if there's much debate to be had on on a lot of them But we'll start a left tackle you brought him up earlier as a guy whose absence really affected the Minnesota Vikings season in Christian Darasaw, I think he's far and away the best left tackle in the division. Outside of that, you got Rashid Walker, you got Braxton Jones, you got Taylor Decker, who's a good player, but just not on that same level where every time he gets paid, you're talking about him becoming one of the highest paid players in his position. It's really a no brainer to me. I'm going to go Darasaw.

If that works for you guys. Yep, that one's that one's easy and if I want to push it forward to left guard, I think that one's also easy as much as the Packers. I think they had to like sell more ownership stakes to afford Aaron. But that one's pretty easy to Donovan Jackson has the potential to be really good, but Joe Tooney is one of the best guards of the last 10 years. So yep, absolutely. And then we go over to center. This one could have been easy. Well, easier. Had Frank rag now not retired some two weeks ago. But we got Ryan Kelly, we got Elton Jenkins from the Packers, we got Drew Dorman from the Bears, and I just threw in Tate Ratledge as a placeholder for the Lions because we really have no idea what is going to happen here. Uh, I'm inclined to go Ryan Kelly. I would also go Ryan Kelly. I don't know what kind of center Jenkins is.

I think it's probably at this point in his career, like Kelly being on the older side, the best player of those guys. But is he really a center? I mean, he's played like tackle and guard and he's kind of been everywhere. They paid Dahlman a lot of money. I don't really see it. I just don't see it with him in the same way as a pass protector. Ryan Kelly is the best pass protector. I think if depending on how Jenkins plays, I think there is a conversation there about Kelly versus Jenkins. It's more of a guy in his prime versus a guy in his later prime. But if we add in all the intangible stuff to what a center has to do and the mental load that Ryan Kelly is going to

take on here, I would go with him. Yeah, I was the only pushback I was going to have was Jenkins, but I mean, he's played, I just looked up 72 snaps that center since over the past four seasons. So if we're talking center, yeah, I'm going to go Ryan Kelly. Hopefully I didn't read the depth chart wrong. Is he playing center next year? Hilton Jenkins. That's what ESPN depth chart has him playing. I have not asked Packers.

I don't know who else would play center for them. Yeah, I think because he has been, I mean, he's touted as like the versatile guy. So I mean, that doesn't shock me. Yeah, he's there. Graham Glasgow. Speaking of Graham Glasgow, let's move on to to right guard here. We got Jonah Jackson, former lion, not with the Bears,

Graham Glasgow of the Detroit Lions. We got him moving back to his preferred position. We got Sean Ryan and we got Will Fries, who the Vikings just signed this off. So I think we can immediately throw out Sean Ryan and get to work on the other three here. What do you guys think? I mean, I think fries probably has this. Uh, I don't really think Jonah Jackson based on his recent performance should be the

guy here. Uh, he was very good for essentially one year with the lions, but goes to the Rams. They signed into a big contract. They move on from him almost immediately. Uh, that is a, in a very, we have to let the NFL tell us some stuff. If the Rams move on from a guard instantly and the Vikings pay Will Frys the most of any guard other than Aaron Banks this off season, I mean, I think that tells a story there in itself. And Frys, the way he was playing last year before he got hurt, he was an absolute beast. So I think that I would probably go with him here.

Yeah, I've got no push back there. I think Graham maybe was playing a little bit out of position last year on the left side, but from what we saw from Fries last year, I'm going to pick him over, Graham. Even still, you know, the pass protection is not there with with Glasgow the way it is for Fries. So, all right, right tackle. This one is as obvious as the day is long. We've got Lions right tackle Peney Sewell, Brian O'Neill, Zach Tom and Darnell Wright. We're gonna go ahead and put the first team all pro in his rightful position here with Peney Sewell. I mean, I will say that Brian O'Neill I think is a top five

right tackle in the league. And because of that, the Vikings have a really, really good, I mean, they might have the best combination of tackles. So he's a freak. I mean, you could throw him passes. Yeah. You could have him throw passes. Yeah.

No, he's just on a totally different level. He's on like that very, very rare Hall of Fame type of track. So I would not argue at all on that one. So heading into the defensive portion of this exercise, we have not yet picked a Packers player for our first team all NFC North. We'll go to the edge defender position because they might have one here. They might not. We can pick two of Aiden Hutchinson, Andrew van

Ginkle, Jonathan Grenard, Montez Sweat, Rashaan Gary, and Dio Odegaboe. Where are you guys thinking? I think Hutchinson obviously is one of the ones here, but you know, I lean towards one of these Vikings players as maybe my second pick. I'm just not exactly sure which direction to go. Which one do you find more valuable? Yeah, this one is hard because Jonathan Grenard was top five in the league in pressures last year. And Andrew Van Ginkle was second team all pro cause he had a couple of pick sixes, uh, well as double digit sacks. I mean,

that's talk about a combo off the edges. I would slightly lean toward Jonathan Grenard here as more of the pure edge rusher. I think that Andrew Van Ginkel is an everything type of guy drops back in coverage rushes in the middle rushes on the outside and they're gonna move him around a lot. I don't know if he's gonna get double digit sacks again. I think this is who Grenard is is just one of the quickest, one of the most versatile pass rushers in the league. And when you look at some of the other guys, maybe two years ago, we would have said Rashawn Gary, two years ago, we would have said Montez Sweat.

Those guys just aren't coming off of great years like Jonathan Grenard is. I think clearly the player who is the best there from last year was Jonathan Grenard. Yeah, I'm in agreement with Hutchinson and then I will defer to Matthew for the Van Ginkle versus Granada debate. I think you're muted. You muted yourself. Yeah. Yeah, so I think I had to be one of those guys because, you know, that those their pass rush has been so good over the last couple years, especially under Flores. Interior defensive line. This is another interesting one because I feel like this is just a position in general where there's a lot of really good players who simply don't get recognized enough. And I think there's a few on every team here. We've got Ali McNeil, DJ Reader, Jonathan Nailen, Harrison Phillips, Javon Hargrave, Grady Jarrett, Gervon Dexter, Kenny Clark,

and Devante Wyatt. We've seen, I think if I'm going to offer up anybody from the Lions to be in contention for this and we can pick two, Aline McNeil is the guy I'm throwing up there. I'm curious to know what your perception of his maybe outside of Detroit and how he compares to the rest of these guys that we have here. I think he's a beast. I thought you were going to say Reader though, because I've kind of thought of him as a little more dominating,

but maybe not quite as much getting in the backfield. This defense attack, this DT rotation is pretty incredible for the Detroit Lions. This year drafting a first rounder as well. I would probably throw McNeil in there. I just don't really know what to do with Kenny Clark and Grady Jarrett because again, like three years ago, I would say, all right, this is we don't even have to talk about this. Kenny Clark, right there. I think he's still really good, but I'm not sure that he is on the same level. Devante Wyatt to me has never quite raised to

the level of his draft stock. And you know And do you put Hargrave or Allen there when they were injured last season? Jonathan Allen's most recent performance is not quite on the same level that it was, again, like Grady Jarrett, like 2021, 2022. So I like McNeil for this. I'm not sure who I would go with the other pick though. Like, do you guys think that Clark is deserving still or has he kind of fallen off enough to not be that guy?

Yeah, I'm right there with you. I think maybe just cuz they're all kind of on the same level It's a little bit of a lifetime achievement award for Kenny Clark because of what he's done To your point about the reader thing I think yeah that Aleem brings more a little bit as a pass rusher And I also think it's like you mentioned earlier, talking about like prime versus a guy kind of exiting his prime. I think reader, you kind of have to monitor him a little bit more and he's not going to be on the field as much as the way. So do we get two of these guys or is it just one or two? So who do you guys want to go

with the second? I think this really helps you go with the second one. I'd give my vote to Clark, but not confident about it. I probably would as well. I mean, to be honest with you, and I hate to just, you know, go off the PFF grade here, but I didn't realize that I thought kind of Harrison Phillips was like that dude and I'm sure he's still a really good player. I guess maybe not as quite as impactful as I would have thought before I, uh, you know, I'm trying not to just go off PFF grades, but it's a team, you know, you don't cover it. I don't know. No. Yeah. And Harrison Phillips,

I actually had a really fun discussion with him last year for an article about his PFF grade, because one of the things about PFF is like, we all know this and it doesn't have to be brought up every time we say it, but like they don't know the assignments and so there are some players that I think that they have a harder time grading than others sometimes it's in coverage and I think with Harrison Phillips one of the things the Vikings do on their D line is they will have Harrison Phillips line up in one gap and then jump to a completely different gap after the snap so he's not winning upfield and guys who win upfield like Javon Hargrave are going to get that like higher PFF grade, because that's what they're judging.

Is that one on one matchup where if you're just your job is to just move a guard from his left to his right to open up a gap for a blitzing linebacker. You're not going to get like a big grade for that, even if you did the right thing. And Phillips is very smart, very versatile in that way, like quicker than usually guys are that for being big guys. I don't think he's a dominating enough pass rush presence though, to put him on this one. Just pulling up, looking at the PFF grades, like Kenny Clark was still pretty darn good last year. Yeah. Threshers. I mean, Reader I a little higher graded. Y

tough because they're all range and they do differen kind of that potential tha and Alan could be if he p for the Vikings. You guys game. He was one of the b that playoff game. Do I w on that when his more recent

performance has been drifted off a little bit? I don't know. I think I think Clark is okay. I would definitely still need Jonathan Allen. And again, there's sort of signal and what the Vikings made for their decision. They paid him a lot of money. So they must think that he's going to be really good for

them this year. I think for 2025, I might bet Jonathan Allen. He's going to be on the field a ton. He's going to make plays for them. And I just don't know where Kenny Clark is going to be at. Fair enough. I'm cool with going Jonathan Allen. I mean, he pretty much had,

if you want to call it a drop off last year, he didn't play as many games. And I think he kind of had like a similar drop off in terms of production. So I think with a full healthy season I think you know we are projecting here so I think we're allowed to kind of do that so let's put Jonathan I thought the Packers are gonna get on the board there I really really did oh that's right that's right okay okay Packers fans are gonna be mad mad mad Peter Bukowski I'm gonna be, mad Peter Bukowski. I'm going to be

hearing from Peter Bukowski on the timeline. When this goes live. All right, linebackers, we can pick three. We got Alex Anzaloni, Jack Campbell, TJ Edwards, Tremaine Edmonds, Quay Walker, Edwin Cooper, Ivan Pace Jr. and Blake Cashman here on the shortlist. Ivan Pace Jr. by the way, I remember him my very first senior bowl and a little behind the curtain about how the sausage gets made sometimes. So I was going down there

and my old beat partner, Justin Rogers, he was kind of prepping me for my first one. And he was like, you know, some ways to find the sometimes you can literally find a diamond in the rough by just looking at PFF grades, looking at the highest grades for draft eligible players and then just be like, okay, let me go watch this guy. And I remember I did that with Ivan Pace Jr. and I was super high on him after seeing him at the senior bowl. I think he was at the senior bowl. And yeah, he just has become a monster after going undrafted. So any thoughts here?

Because I think very highly of Alex Anzaloni. And I mean, you saw the importance that he had when he got knocked out of this in week 11. The defense just absolutely stinks without him. He comes back for week 18.

They only give up nine points. Sam Dardle hit a couple more throws here. It's a much different conversation, but I don't know. I'm kind of unsure of where to begin here with so many guys who I think can fit. I think Blake Cashman deserves this 100%. I mean, to me, he was like a head of the snake type of player

when he was not in for the Vikings. In fact, you guys saw that. He missed the game against Detroit the first time and they were a different defense without him out there leading it. Such a great communicator, but he gets sacks past deflections.

He's one of the fastest, quickest linebackers. And he's a guy who was not really a household name because he took years of development for the Jets and then for the Texans. Then he was just coming into his own when the Vikings signed him. But if we were ranking most important players to the Vikings top five defense last year, I mean, of course, Grenard's going to come up probably first and Van Ginkle,

but Blake Cashman would have an argument that's right on the same level as those guys. I thought he was absolutely vital for them last season. I would also go Edren Cooper here. I thought he was absolutely vital for them last season. I would also go Edren Cooper here. I was not familiar with his game last year because he shows up, you know, when it's in the division, you feel like you know these teams inside and out. And one of the games must have been the second game

that they played the Packers. I'm like, excuse me? Like who? I do not, what is this man? And so then you know, you look at his entire season and it was it was really really good last year if we're talking about a guy who's on the rise, I think that Edger and Cooper belongs there. A hard position to play for a rookie as well. So I think

there's now I'm sorry. No, I was gonna I was gonna kick it to you. I was gonna say now I think we have to get one of these lines on here. But I'm not sure which one I'm going to kick it to you. I was going to say now, I think we have to get one of these lions on here, but I'm not sure which one I'm going with because, oh, what are you thinking? I was going to say, so there's really five guys on my shortlist. We mentioned two of them, Blake Cashman, Edwin Cooper, I think we're all in agreement that those guys are going to be on it. I also had Ivan Pace on my shortlist, but it seems that Matthew is leaning more towards Blake Cashman and I get that. And yes, the other two is Alex Anzolone, Jack Campbell.

I tend to lead more towards Alex Anzolone. I think Jack Campbell obviously has a higher ceiling at this point to reach in their careers. We know what Alex Anzolone is and I think Jack Campbell is still getting better. But like you mentioned from week 11 to when he came back in week 18, it was different defenses with them on the field. So I'm going to go Anzaloni as the third guy here. Yeah. And when you're talking about the perspective of just like when we do our

lions, Vikings, position by position preview, we talk more about Anzaloni than we do Jack Campbell. Not no disrespect, but just like that's a guy where when he was back in the lineup was like, uh-oh, that guy is a difference wh line up is like, uh oh, is a difference maker. Th on that vibe, I would go sure. And I think, you kn projecting and stuff like

as highly as I think of J he can become as soon as I still do think that the believe that Alex Zaloni is going to take a step back. And so I would agree. I'd probably keep them at least level, but maybe better next season. So I'm cool with the group of Blake Cashman, Edgeren Cooper and Alex Zaloni if that is all right with you fellas. Yeah, I mean, it's a good vision guys. I think

and I think linebacker kind of like you were talking about earlier Richard about the tight ends like linebacker in the NFC North is just stacked like there are a lot of guys that I would love to have on my football team and you know, even I think both of these teams are all four of these teams like guys down the depth chart who are maybe reserves. I think both of these teams are all four of these teams like guys down the depth chart who are maybe reserves I think our guys I also one of my football teams. So let's move on to cornerback. We get to pick two here We've got DJ Reid

Taryn Arnold and and we are picking two cornerbacks in one nickel. So nickel will come next DJ Reid Taryn Arnold Isaiah Rogers Jalen Johnson. Did we miss anybody? I think those are the cream of the crop esque. I think I think if you're going to pick two, it would be two of those four. Is there a Vikings player you would like to add into this this conversation here? I think I will save that for the nickel discussion when I go with

the Vikings guy. To me, this is pretty easy, right? It's Jalen Johnson, DJ Reed. Outside corners. Yeah. No, no, no. It's not Harrington Valentine. What a great name. It is a great name.

That's where Bo Melton is going to find his way home. When you guys and I are at high velocity in the combine in the year 2031, we'll be like, remember Carrington Valentine? No reason at all, but just remember him. Incredible. All right, we're moving on to the nickel here. We get to pick one.

We got a couple options here. One from each team, Amique Robertson from the Lions, Byron Murphy from the Vikings, Nate Hobbs of the Packers and Kyler Gordon from the Chicago Bears. I'm first gut says Byron Murphy. I think it's a two horse race. Yeah. Another really good group I would argue for Byron Murphy in part because well look at the interceptions from last year that he's a playmaker on the football, but also he is when I talked about Cashman is head of the snake. I mean, he really Byron Murphy's getting that much

But if you're Brian Flores, you understand that you can do so many things with Byron Murphy And he's so important to guiding everybody else there that I would go with him and then just being the most productive of the group From last year. There's not too many guys that play nickel that also get that much and he does play outside as well But get that much in terms of production. I think I wanted to go Kyler Gordon here and I still might want to go Kyler Gordon here but the six interceptions last year is really tough to leapfrog from Byron Murphy and since you guys were already 2-1 I'm willing to go with Byron Murphy here as well. But Gordon Gordon is really good I mean last year if you if you want to go Gordon, not offended. I mean, last year, using by the PFF,

he was stopped in by PFF. So I mean, that's significant. Yeah, like you said, I think they're both very, very good. But the six interceptions, I think, going into this next season, coming off that, that's not a bad answer. You know what I mean? That's not the wrong answer either. All right, we are finishing up with safeties. You get to pick two.

I think there are two Lions who are in contention for this, but there are some pretty good players in this position. We got Kirby Joseph and Brian Branch, both from the Lions. Pro Bowler and first team all Pro. Jaquan Briskir from the Chicago Bears. Kevin Byard, the third from the Chicago Bears. Harrison Smith and Josh Metellisk from the Chicago Bears, Kevin Byard, the third from the Chicago Bears, Harrison Smith and Josh Metellus from the Minnesota Vikings. And lastly, we have Xavier McKinney from the Green Bay Packers. I think this is I don't know if you feel different. I got all the respect of the world for Josh Metellus that you know, Harrison Smith, but I think this is kind of three guys fighting for these two spots between the two Lions safeties and

then Xavier McKinney. But curious to see what you think here. I would go the same way. I would go branch and McKinney. I know that Joseph got a lot of a ton of interceptions last season and he was great. But the role that Brian branch plays is very dynamic. And I also think that it t be leaned into more. I th a little bit maybe static

there was more, you know, dynamic is whatever. There more looks that he gave l in years past, but it stil another level to brian br already been. And then Xavier McKinney is one of the best safeties in the league Harrison Smith.

We're talking about who's had the best career. It's not even close. He's going to make an argument for the Hall of Fame and he is very important for this Vikings defense. They were thrilled to get a back, but those other two guys are in their prime had dominating seasons last year. So that's that's the way I would go. I'm also going to go Xavier McKinney and Brian Branch.

And I'm kind of speaking out of both sides of my mouth because I just talked about the Byron Murphy interceptions thing. But then now I'm going to go away from it from Branch here. I just think Branch is pound for pound talent wise. And again, not to keep bringing up Madden, but I think like if I'm a Madden's rating adjuster, I think Brian Branch is higher overall than Kirby Joseph. And it's not it's you know, it's not like it's it's not that he's so much better. Obviously, it's very close. We all agree that the that top three is the top three. And nobody has been a better ballhawk in the NFL since Kirby

Joseph entered. I think he has like 17 picks over the past three seasons, which is pretty ridiculous. But I'm gonna go Branch and'm going to go McKinney here. It's a, it's a tough one between branch and Joseph. I do tend to lean branch for 2025. Um, you know, even though he, Kirby is coming off the first team, all prone, I think deservedly so that he got that over branch after having nine interceptions. The interesting thing with them, because we've, we've had conversations about, okay, when does the money dry up? Can you afford to pay both of these guys? And Kirby Joseph

has a skill that nobody else in the NFL does. And you could argue that from an impact standpoint, and just when probability added, you could argue that in the secondary, there's there are few, if anybody more impactful players than Kirby Joseph because of that one ability alone. On the other hand, I think Brian Branch gets him everywhere else and does everything else at a super high level. The run defense, the blitzing, like everything else. So I'm going to go branch. But I think that's an interesting conversation that we've had because it's like, we think branch can be Troy Palamalu, but then can Kirby be Ed Reed? And like, those are absolutely insane projections to put on them. But he was just a first team all pro. And when you lead the NFL over three seasons with 17 interceptions, I think you kind of deserve to start having those conversations about you and,

and kind of having those names, but upon is still with a lot of, you know, cautiousness, but, um, I, I don't think it's crazy to have those conversations right now. I don't know what to do with that debate between those two players. I mean, I tend to lean toward branch just because of how much he can do on the field. But there is something to being a ballhawk and interceptions are an up and down type of stat, which is probably the reason I would go branches. You could get eight picks in one year and then to the next year. That even happens with players like Ed Reed.

But there is a fear that gets struck into you when that guy is back there. I just think branch the fact that he can line up anywhere. He can play lots of different types of coverages. He could get after the quarterback. That sort of stuff would put him a little bit ahead. But I mean, either answer, I think you're doing well with. But I love that you said, well, you know, I'm a little worried about sounding like a homer, but we have Paul Amalo and Reid.

To be fair, those were that was that was what Kirby Joseph said about himself and Brian Branch. So those were not that was not my comp, but I tend to see the vision with him, even though he's got a long way to go. But again, you got 17 interceptions and he's been consistent with it. But to your point, I think he had seven from weeks one through 10 and then he had two the rest of the season. They both came in the same game against San Francisco. So that's absolutely on the table for him is to come back down earth. Maybe he's only got two, maybe he's only got three. Next season, everybody's like, what's wrong with Kirby Joseph? And it could be a multitude of factors. Maybe it's a positive thing, because they're simply too afraid of throwing the ball in his direction, or maybe he's just not seeing the ball like he was a year ago, or making the right breaks on the ball, or they found out a way to fool him or something like that. That's what I love about football. It's just on a year to year basis. Okay. I know what you do well. Now let me try to use that against you.

And just like, it's just, I think in a way that no other sport has, I'm going off on tangent here, but I think in a way that no other sport has, it's like, it's just, it's just chess and it's like, Oh, it's so much fun. I love football. I'm glad you love football, Nolan. We all love football. That was beautiful. It was. I I teared up a little bit but are we we're not gonna leave

this without picking a kicker, right? We gotta this team has to have. Oh yeah, true. Okay, we we we got it, right? I don't because we I think when we actually did this, we should I mean, we should if we're gonna pick a kicker, we gotta pick a punter too. Uh well, I think when we did this, I think we just like skipped that. We were like, yeah, who cares? But it was good for me to compare the launching stats between two punters because that's one thing that the Lions Special Teams coordinator, Dave Phipp, he always rails against.

He likes to come out as like an anti analytics guy. He does use analytics. But I think he likes to point out the fault in certain stats like net punt and stuff like that. He's like, well, if you have a high net punt, that doesn't mean your punters good. It means your offense stinks. Like you're always punting from your own 20 30 yard line. And, you know, we're punting from the 43. So, you know, it looks different. But the placement, all that other stuff is better. I'm rambling here. No, no, I can I add to that since the we're like gone way off the rails with

Yeah, how football he this is what Matt Daniels, the Vikings teams coordinator talks about all the time is pairing up distance with trajectory and landing the ball in the exact right spot to where the coverage can reach the guy. So it's not like how far you can kick it. It's what location have they planned for this football to be in for them to have the best chance at stopping the guy who's returning it. So that's different. And the net part is also, I think very true for the Vikings last year, where their punter is more of a big boomer who can kick at 6070 yards in the air. But does

he have the right exact touch around the coffin corner? Maybe not. And I think they were hurt by that a little last year because they were punting from midfield all the time. It's a great point. Although now every punter is going to be punting from midfield because the touchback goes to the 35 yard line. But I think that that is true. And we are not qualified to evaluate punters. But I think we are evaluating kickers.

OK, I mean, this this is Bates, right? I mean, McVaniss has a good career. Reichardt had a great start to his season last year. And then we don't know exactly what he's going to be. Santos is a good career kicker though. Kairos Santos kicker. Would you rather have Bates or Santos? I think I'd rather have Bates and like it's so interesting.

I mean he made he made every big kick last year. He did not miss an important kick and they asked a lot of them considering the experience level that he had. But training camp was so interesting. I'm giving you the full Jake Bates backstory, right? This guy doesn't kick since high school. He joins the Michigan Panthers. He has this miracle walk off winner. He comes to training camp and everybody is enamored by this guy. I mean like it was the the two top click drivers during training camp last year, Jameson Williams

and Jake Bates. Because this is a position the Lions have struggled with since Dan Campbell came in. I think they found through something like 15 kickers, like who have like made appearance. I think that might be a little high, but it's somewhere around there that have made appearances in a game since Campbell and Holmes showed up in 2021. You got this guy. everybody is so excited. They're like, oh, this is the answer. This is the answer.

And he was the most inconsistent guy on that entire roster in last year's training camp. And it was just kind of like, you're just kind of just waiting for that to be like, all right, this is untenable. Then Michael Badgley tears his ACL. So now guess what kid, we think you're special. Go ahead, we're gonna stick with you through the mistakes, but I

was just always waiting for that other shoe to drop because I had seen it every day in practice where he was just he go like four for seven on extra points in a day and you're just like, well, what the hell is going on? They tried them out there in Kansas City preseason week two to kick a walk off. And I'm like, this is where it ends. Like he's going to miss like this chip shot field goal. And they're going to be like, okay, we have to cut this guy.

And it's just going to be over. He makes it. He and then he just makes every field goal from then on out that he that he attempts for the rest of the year. He missed a few. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's it's Jake Bates. He's a special player watching him last year wa actually. So McManus last

that was only 20 for 21. Bates was six for eight f while we're telling our k rickard is the best pract seen. I'm not kidding. He makes everything. I think we counted them up in training camp because you know, that's one of the silly fun things to do in training camp. Let's keep track of every single field goal. I

think he missed three from everywhere from the entire camp. I mean, 50 plus short field goals, everything. And they're doing it almost every day. Then last year he makes I think his first 15 or 16 kicks got hurt and when he came back, it wasn't the same. And I think he has the potential to be one of the best kickers in the NFL based on his actual talent and what we saw from him healthy.

If we're going projecting, I think he's got a chance to be the best, but Bates has already proven he could do it for an entire season. So I would probably go Bates. And the guy has got just a just a crazy leg. I mean the distance is nuts. Yeah, I'm gonna go Bates as well, especially after that Houston game where he makes to 50 yard or 50 plus yard or both off the directional flag to that was the craziest part that I

I don't think you or I probably fully appreciated watching that in the press. How close that was to the upright. Because it was a special guy. 58 to tie it and then like 53 to win it or something. Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to. All right. Well, there we go. No punter. Are we sure we don't want to do a punter? I mean, I think the guy from Chicago, wasn't he like the best college punter of all time?

Are we also doing what we want to do? Long snappers, quality control coaches. Who's got the best inside linebacker assistant or how deep you want to go? I think, I think we'll cut it off at punter. Uh, I like where your head's at. I'm fine with a Chicago's punter cause I was just looking real quick in terms of inside the 20 punts. He's third in the NFL. He had 38 last year, so not to be only for touchback. He had a lot of opportunities to put the ball away. 82 punts. Oh, my God.

If he's got any leg left, he's the punter this year. 82 punts. I'm going to see how many punts Jack Fox has had over the last three years. Fox had 45 last year. OK, all right. That's not that's maybe not as dramatic of a difference as I would have thought it would be. His even though Fox was the first team all pro last year. How do we how do we square with that?

And he was he was first the net, which I know we just got done talking about that doesn't matter. He was first the net in the NFL. Looking at looking at his numbers now, these are pretty freakish punt numbers. So at 22 of his 45 were inside the 20. That's really good. Yeah, I actually think Jack Fox does deserve to be this guy. Sorry, Iowa.

Your guy. Yeah. Sorry, Tory Taylor. Sorry for all the work yet. But yeah, I mean his only 41% inside the 20. I don't know who knows anything about one thing. I don't know. Who knows anything about wanting I? I don't. That's why we have special teams coordinators, special teams, special coaches, special players and yeah, yeah, I guess that's yeah.

What like more than 50% of Fox's punts were inside the 20. So yeah, yeah, he's a beast. He's like he's been a B since he got here. All right, Matthew Coller. Thank you so much for joining us. Like I said at the top of the episode, go check out Matthew's book. See how the sausage is made in the Lions organization and specifically the Lions analytical department and his book, Football is a numbers game and go check out the episode that I did with him a few days ago. We kind of did the same type of talk back and forth about regression and what to expect from these Lions next year.

And then lastly, like I said, go check out that story that he wrote on Madden and how it can help a coach or two with their clock management. Where can we find you on social media, Matthew? At Matthew Coller on Twitter and you know just purpleinsider.com kind of houses everything that I do over there. So that's a good place to to stop by. Beautiful. Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We really loved having you on and let's do this again sometime. Alright. Thanks a lot guys. Great to see you. Yeah. Great to see you

as well.