Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Dane Mizutani rebuilds the Vikings defense

Episode Date: February 8, 2025

The Vikings have a sizeable chunk of cap to spend this offseason with a number of holes on the defense to fill. Matthew Coller is joined by Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press to discuss rebuilding Minnesota's defense this offseason. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me on the show, not for a post game for the first time in a long time, Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press. And Dane, I've been doing a lot of research and a lot of breaking down my future of the Viking series over at purpleinsider.football make sure y'all go check that out and i've been thinking about how much different the minnesota vikings defense could be or might not be when we go into 2025 so what I'm very interested in from you today on the show is your vision for Brian Flores and the Vikings defense. So I just like to you to read to me all your signings, all your draft picks. Go ahead. Just read them all. No, I'm kidding. We're going to go the different levels

of the defense and all the possible permutations and how much the Vikings could possibly improve their defense. But I think we have to start with the fact that Brian Flores is the coach of this football team. And last year, he didn't even have any interviews. So his foregone conclusion, he's coming back. But this year he did get a lot more attention. They won 14 games.

They had a top five defense. But from a player evaluation standpoint and a schematic standpoint, that already is an enormous win, I think, for the Minnesota Vikings 2025 football team to have Brian Flores back as their DC. Yeah, that's a good point because when you look at everything that went right for the Vikings last year on the defensive side of the ball, all the signings that we have, rightfully so, given credit to Kweisi Adolfo Mensah for bringing in. A lot of that was rooted in Brian Flores taking a grocery list,

basically giving it to Kweisi Adolfo Mensah and saying, these are the guys I want. These are the guys I think it could work with. And it worked a hell of a lot better than I think anyone could have ever imagined. So the fact that they're able to retain Brian Flores this year, heading into a new rash of free agency where they have all this money, you won't have to kind of win on the margins anymore. You can just swing for the fences. That's a huge thing for the Vikings in a vacuum before anything even happens, before the signings even start to roll in

in mid-March. The fact that Brian Flores is now in this building, continuing to lead the defense forward, but also having these conversations internally and picking apart the board and looking at this player versus that player or this position versus that position. All of these conversations that are being had, they sound a lot different if Brian Flores is the head coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars. So the fact that the Vikings have been able to keep him around as their defensive coordinator, we already know what he can do on the field. But I think the talent evaluation

aspect of Brian Flores sometimes goes overlooked because he's such a madman calling the plays on the sideline. But this guy knows talent. And I think more importantly than knowing talent, he knows like which parts of the defense are going to work in concert together and which players he can probably he feels get more out of than maybe in their previous position. or this big name free agent, a DJ readout at cornerback or, you know, like whoever you've decided you want as a fan. Like that's fair. They have a ton of money. But like if it's not the guy they end up signing in mid-March, rather than freak out and say, oh, my God, they missed out on the guy I wanted.

Like I would just beg you to trust Brian Flores because I think he knows what he's doing. So the fact that he's around, I don't think you can be overstated how important it is, not only next season when he's calling the plays, but in this offseason, in this very, very formidable time for the Vikings where they get to kind of shape their defense moving forward. He's going to be the guy leading the charge of that. Well, and that's what our exercise is going to be here is let's try to put on our Brian Flores caps

and try to figure out after two years of watching him do defensing, what is he going to want? What is he going to be interested in? Because I know what I'm interested in for the defensive line, which is I would like to see the Minnesota Vikings get a guy who can get 50 quarterback pressures on his own, where they do not have to blitz every single time with a linebacker. And you can just have that guy out there on third downs and say, go get that quarterback last year, the defensive tackles totaled 38 quarterback pressures. Now that doesn't count Jihad Ward's 31.

He was more of a defensive tackle than he was an edge rusher. But even if you add that together, that's still about the same number. Jihad Ward and all the other defensive tackles as Osa Odigizua from the Dallas Cowboys last year. Thing is, though, the Cowboys may want him back or someone else may want to give him $24 to $27 million a year. This happened with Christian Wilkins last year, where we all were like, okay, they want Christian Wilkins.

It's so obvious. And then it's 27 bills a year. The name that I have on my list is a little less flashy and has a little less in terms of the pure pass rushing numbers, which is BJ Hill of the Cincinnati Bengals, because I look at him as being a very similar type to Harrison Phillips. And I think if you had two Harrison Phillipses, as opposed to Phillips and then $2 million free agent, $2 million free agent. I think if you had two players of that ilk who are similar in terms of their all-around type of game,

that that would be extremely valuable for them, for two guys who could be on the field for all three downs. They could create pressure, but they could also move bodies. I don't think it fits into the Brian Flores ethos to have a guy who weighs 275 pounds and rushes the passer all the time as much as I want that for this system. Yeah, I agree. I like the BJ Hill one because I think if fans get what they want, and I know we're talking about the defense, but if they get what they want on the offensive side of the ball and they go swing for the fences for trey smith who like by the way might just resign with the kenton city chiefs so the keeps might keep them around but if the vikings swing for the fences at the guard position you probably are going to have

to win on the margins in certain areas and i think bj hill probably makes sense i know a name that's been floated on the defensive line by people just kind of putting their Brian Flores hats on at home is Milton Williams for the Philadelphia Eagles. I like him too. I think he's a guy who could maybe in a more elevated role or more like pointed role of this is what we need you to do on defense rather than kind of playing second and third fiddle to you know Jordan Davis and Jalen Carter maybe just be the guy I think Milton Williams could work but BJ Hill I think the experience he brings in the interior of that defensive line what he's done for Cincinnati

in the past like that's a guy who makes sense and I think experience matters here not to bring up past you know things that I think is still haunting Vikings fans, but there's a reason Dallas Turner didn't play a lot this year. And part of that is because Jonathan Grenard and Andrew Van Ginkle were so good. But part of that is also because Brian Flores values experience. And I think B.J. Hill brings that to the table. That's a name that I think, like, you're right, not as sexy as, you know, some of the big that to the table. That's a name that I think like you're right, not as sexy as, as you know, some of the big names on the board, but that could pay dividends. I just want

to see them focus on the interior of the defensive line in some way, shape, or form. I don't necessarily care who it is, as long as it's a thing that they go into free agency saying we need to to improve this maybe it's a draft player in the draft too but when you look at a guy like Jalen Redman and the impact he made and how excited not only like we got as covering the Vikings but Brian Flores was about a guy named Jalen Redman like this is not taking anything away from Jalen Redman. He was a good player and I think he will be a good player next year for them. But I think that fervor that he somehow developed that niche kind of excitement within the fan base speaks to how much they need to focus on that part of the team, because as good as Harrison Phillips is as stout as Jonathan Bullard was in the run game,

like I mentioned, Jalen Redman, as impressive as he was in kind of his spot action, they did not have anyone that can just put their hand on the ground and just beat the guard, beat the center. Everything was effort. Everything was like high motor plays, not just dominance from the snap of the ball. And I think that's something that. I would say first and foremost is something this defense needs. I know corners of cornerback is a position of need as well, but interior pressure impacts the game. I think the Vikings saw that in week 18 and in the first round of the playoffs, interior pressure matters. Getting a guy like Kobe Turner matters.

And if they go into free agency and they miss out on that first wave, I think they're going to kind of be kicking themselves here come September, October, November, that they didn't just spend and bite the bullet and improve a pretty glaring weakness. Folks, I'm trying a new thing in order to stop going to fast food restaurants all the time with my busy schedule. It is called Tempo Meals. Tempo is a weekly delivery service that delivers chef crafted meals from a dietitian approved menu fresh to your door. They're perfectly portioned lunches and dinners.

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The only factor here is that the rookie class is really good and it should be pretty stacked toward the end of the first round because there's going to be some higher priority positions that get taken. The Vikings don't need tackles. They don't need wide receivers. And there's a couple of corners that are supposed to go very high. And maybe some will be available in the back end of the first, but I think that there's not a, there may be one guy who's like a Derek Brown that is expected to go super, super high. But aside from that, there are more

Kalijah can't see type of flawed, but really good prospects that the Vikings could look at. And I don't just mean like him specifically. I mean, that caliber of, yeah, the guy didn't have endemic and Sue numbers in college, but he could be an impact player in the NFL. There's that option. And then there's also the kind of all in option, which is a dig as well, but there's some guys in the middle BJ Hill. I mentioned, I think we'll get paid a lot. Javon Hargrave is interesting to me because he was phenomenal in their run to the Super Bowl, San Francisco, but then he got hurt.

And so he's a 32 year old free agent who I think would fit really well in this as a bigger guy, as somebody who can penetrate, get after the quarterback, but could also do more than just doing that. And that's where you're trying to get a deal. And that was what I was going to ask is when it comes to the assets, you have a finite amount of cap space. You have a finite amount of draft capital. I'm comfortable with them using a lot of it for this position. But the question is really how much, because if we're talking about the top guys and I don't know what Hill's going to get, but they're getting a lot of money. The top guys are getting 20 plus Milton Williams

scares me a little because there's so many good Eagles players on that D line and he's only had one good year of it. So how much of the, let's say that I gave you, and I totally understand that the salary cap can be greatly manipulated in order to get these guys in, as it was last year to make those three day one signings. But let's just work with per year type of dollars. And I was saying, Dane, in terms of per year type of dollars, what we can put and fit in is $40 million into the defense.

How much of that should go to the defensive tackle position? That's hard because you're right. You don't want to just cash all of that piece of the pie in. Because I think if you do that, the risk of, and a guy like Milton Williams, it's hard to kind of project how much money these guys are going to get. But if you go all in on that, then you probably are giving on the back end.

You're not going to be in the conversation for a DJ reader or any of those top cornerbacks because those guys have to get paid too. So I don't know if I can sit here and say, like, write the check, whoever it is. I think probably like BJ Hill makes sense because he is kind of of that bargain ilk, but even like, what if he ends up being too expensive too? So like the number is hard to kind of, if we're, if we're just giving them $40 million, it's hard to kind of if we're if we're just giving them 40 million dollars it's hard to kind of say well 15 can go to the interior defense of the defensive line

because i think that also doesn't take into account like the line in the sand that like some teams might just be willing to blow by and if there's one thing that quayse adolfo has shown in his time here it's more so with guys that he wants to justify letting walk away than maybe justify bringing in at a higher cap hit. But he stays pretty firm in his line in the sand. So whatever that line is, I think Brian Flores is having a pretty big role in that right now. And so I don't know the number.

Like, if you tell me right now, Harrison Phillips, what's he making? So he's $7 million, right? And he just signed an extension that's going to put him around nine, right? Can you give someone else 12, 13, 14? Like, I don't know if you can, but I think you might have to, if you're going to want to fill that void with, with the top end of talent. So that's hard. I think when you look at Harrison Phillips contract, that might be a pretty good barometer of where I would say that's, that's enough. because he's a good player.

And I think if we're giving $15 million to the next interior defensive lineman, the money that you are lauding as a fan base, and we have so much salary cap space, that goes away really quick if you just start signing guys to $15 million contracts. I think that just this is me and not my Brian Flores hat on. I think this position is so, so valuable in today's game. The differential between defensive tackles and guards, and oh, no one knows this better than us,

but the differential is so enormous that I think if you have that edge there that you just have, you start ahead of the game, you start points up in every game because your defensive tackles are so much better than the guards and centers around the NFL outside of about 10 or 15 of them. And I want one of those guys that gives you that instant starting edge. So for me, a lot of money would go there. Whereas I actually tend to think with the cornerback position that there are a lot more opportunities to find guys who fit what you do, because the league, there is no such thing as a one-on-one Xavier Rhodes lockdown corner anymore.

It's gone because teams use so much motion pre-snap. You cannot say Xavier Rhodes, you go guard Odell Beckham jr. And that's the game that you cannot do that anymore because what they'll do is they'll move them around. They'll put them in the backfield. They'll put him in a bunch set and then he'll have his inside release. And you follow like you just i'm not saying corners aren't valuable you'd love to have someone who could play man but you can find guys who could play zone if they're smart enough i mean we saw gilmore survive this year as part of a top five defense when physically he was nowhere close to what stefan gilmore used to be just on iq a little bit of playmaking. And it was still really good. And the same goes for someone like Shaq Griffin, who doesn't have the wheels that he once did.

And yet opposing teams, I think had a 70 something QB rating when they were throwing into the coverage of Shaq Griffin. So I think that I would put more money into defensive tackle. I think it's more rare and more difficult to, to find, but I don't know how they're going to look at it. And they might, they might look at it. Like there's a guy I've brought up before Adam Butler from Vegas.

Who's a free agent. Who is the funniest. He's just enormous. And that's always been a Bella check type of thing. Like get this huge Gilbert Brown, Alan branch looking guy in there. They might want to just have that position only be run stuffing and view it as a money saving type of thing yeah and so i've just i'm looking at the contracts of defensive linemen right now and like

yeah i mean you do have to pay for it but that's that's where when i look at this free agent class, you're taking a swing on someone, right? Like you're not necessarily paying for production in the vacuum right now. You're also trying to project out what could this guy be given a bigger role. So if we're committing a large, you said $40 million for the point of this exercise. If we're committing even $18 million, which is not even in the top 10 as far as average annual value like for contracts you're then you are going to have to find those cornerbacks that that help you kind of win on the margin you are right about the fact that there is no longer like a rebus island in in in the nfl because to your point like the motions like shadowing a guy

is really hard if you're running 50 yards across the field every play so like that part of of defensive dominance or or winning with a singular guy at that position is probably gone to to the same like it's not it doesn't exist in the same way that that it did when you know 10 years ago but there's still value in in taking a swing on a big name guy, you know, a big cornerback, you know, a guy who can fill the void. I think you're right about Stefan Gilmore and Shaq Griffin. They gave you kind of enough at times, but at times you were just sitting there saying like, they need more out of this position.

And I think a guy like DJ Reed and even a guy like Charverius Ward at cornerback, they're going to cost. And do you want a D.J. Reed and Charverius Ward more than you want a Milton Williams or a B.J. Hill? That's what it might come down to. And I still think, like, I understand what you're saying about the importance of a defensive tackle and how like Chris Jones, the Kansas city chiefs just dominate and destroy game plans for offenses because he's a, he's a monster. Um, and, and he's getting paid rightfully. So $31 million a year, cause he's a monster. Um, but i don't know if a guy like that exists in this free agents class and i don't know if i would sacrifice the opportunity to go get a cornerback who i might think i personally think is better than the the options in at interior defensive

linemen maybe that's where the draft comes in maybe you just say we spent in free agency on corner. We tried to win on the margins in the interior and damn it. We're going to take the best interior defensive lineman. That's there at 24. If we don't decide to trade down, maybe that's where you go with it. But I think what's giving me pause about committing so much money to that interior, the defensive line is I just,

I'm not totally sold on everyone who's available. I totally understand that. And, uh, don't disagree with that. Uh, the one thing about corners that could be also tricky is the small sample size nature of corners from year into year out. Now, DJ Reed has multiple years of being great. He's probably going to command 20 plus million a year. So then there's half your money going to one guy that is just one guy in a weak link system where that means McKay Blackman has to be good. That means Dwight McLaughlin or whoever else you sign has to be good. And sometimes I wonder about the difference. And I think Reed is a difference maker here.

I like to look at the man coverage. Okay. Who did teams use in man coverage? Guess who it is? It's Humphrey. It's certain it's it's Reed. It's the best guys, right? Are used the highest in man coverage because obviously, right. Because they actually can't. But aside from that, there's kind of a thing with corners where, okay, the difference between number one and maybe number 15 is enormous. The difference between number 15 and number 35 probably isn't. And so I don't want them to run back the same group of corners. Of course, Mackay Blackman was supposed to be a guy who can play man coverage and he ends up getting hurt last year. So they had to scramble, but I'm a little less thinking about putting all the eggs in the basket in

part, because it could be small samples. You get it. Look at Byron Murphy. Byron Murphy had a great season. We had never seen that version of Byron Murphy before. And I think he's a good player. I don't think he's that good.

Like he getting six interceptions and one handed picks and everything. It's probably not going to be able to repeat that in a certain system. Like, do you fit as well in a certain system? And that just worked out for you that year. Did you get favorable matchups? Did the quarterbacks that you faced, were they not good? Or did they not look your way or what? Like, there's a lot of things that go into that data set with corners that can be very tricky where I feel like an interior D lineman is one of the most predictable things in the league. So yeah. Okay. Milton Williams has his one year. Oh, dig a Zua has two years where he's been really good. BJ Hill has probably five years where he's been good. Uh, read, uh, Jaron Reed has a bunch of years where he's been good. So I think that, and the

other part is to the drop off from a BJ Hill to the role players that they could. I mean, I went looking Sebastian Joseph day is the guy who's come up a million times with this team. Cause he's a former Ram, but that's, that's like the next wave. There's this huge gap where I don't think that exists at corner. I want to ask you about your opinion though, on a Dallas Turner, because it will just call outside linebackers D line. Patrick Jones, I think is likely to leave. And if they sign Patrick Jones back, I'm going to have a lot of questions about Dallas Turner. Like what, what, um, because if Dallas Turner slides into a Patrick Jones type of position where he's playing 40 snaps a game for next year. Like what's a, what's a rational type of expectation for Dallas Turner 2025. Rational or like what you should be getting out of a guy that you traded the farm for

rational, rational. If he, if he steps into that patrick jones role like i don't want to go too high but i i'm just accounting for the fact that jonathan grenard and andrew van ginkle are incredible so if you as dallas turner stepping into that patrick jones role assuming they let patrick jones walk which they should you're going to get favorable matchups. You're going to be able to be moved around on the, you know, I think that there is a way that if Brian Flores trusts you, he's going to find ways to utilize your skillset and kind of use you as the

counterpunch to all the attention that Jonathan Grenard is going to get next year, because all of a sudden Jonathan Grenard, I feel like next year because all of a sudden, Jonathan Grenard, I feel like he was super underrated, and then everyone realized, holy crap, this guy is great. So I think blocking schemes are going to account for that to some degree next year. Andrew Van Ginkle, same thing. Honestly, like seven to eight sacks feels like it should be

the minimum for Dallas Turner next year. If he's totally fit into that Patrick Jones role. I'm just thinking like Patrick Jones number, I don't know what he finished with. There was a time where he was like leading the NFL in sacks. Like a lot of those were just like cleanup sacks that he just like, the guy fell down and he touched him. And like, there was the one where he just turned trent williams into a pretzel but i think it was more like the effort plays for patrick jones and cleaning up the mess but if you're dallas turner like and you've earned the right to fill that role and under this thought exercise he has like you better be making a big impact like jared verse is going to

win defensive rookie of the year. And he just continued to ascend and ascend and ascend. And then the playoffs game against the Vikings, he was unblockable. And then in the playoff game against the Eagles, he was unblockable like seven to eight sacks out of Dallas Turner next year in 2025. Like if he is given or works and earns that role that he should be getting, or he should be forcing his way into minimum like that,

that feels like it had has to be what he gets, what he gets to. I was thinking somewhere in the range of 600 to 700 snaps, five to seven sacks. Sure. Good coverage when they ask him to play in coverage. And then, and we might see an Andrew Van Ginkle extension.

I think if we see an Andrew Van Ginkle extension, you have to ask the question, like, are they okay with Dallas Turner? Uh, I wouldn't be afraid of an Andrew Van Ginkle extension because you could play him at multiple positions. So if you have to move a Josh Metellus back to traditional safety, which he can play,

maybe Van Ginkle is kind of your move around guy. And even though they have different bodies, they can do the same type of stuff. And that's, that was more Van Ginkle in Miami where he got five or six sacks as a blitzer, but he wasn't a pure edge rusher where this year he edge rushed more than he has before and got 11 sacks. He'd kind of do everything. You just want them on your team. But if they were to give an extension to Van Ginkle, you would go, okay, wait now where's Dallas Turner going to play? Is he going to be a linebacker basically to go along with Cashman and pace? And like, where is he going to fit in? Is he going to to play the metallis type of role because he could play in coverage mobility that most edge rushers don't have really the vision when you

drafted him and i've just found it interesting that we've heard different comparisons from kevin o'connell and brian flores where brian flores has mentioned like dante hightower in connection with him who's a linebacker. And last year, O'Connell said, well, you know, we see Turner is like a Grenard. I'm like, you do? Okay, well, then he's playing in coverage a lot for somebody that you see as being a Grenard. So what's your vision for him? And if next year on a defense that has two elite players on the edges

and they won't stay healthy as much as they did this year, probably. And Turner gets six or seven sacks, plays five, 600 snaps, puts on 20 pounds of muscle, and then, you know, just is, is a dynamic type of player on this defense. I, as soon as the draft is over, I just move on this. This has always been, this has been maybe a, maybe a personality flaw for me when they draft a guy, no matter where they took them, what they did. I just move on. This has been maybe a personality flaw for me. When they draft a guy, no matter where they took him, what they did, I don't worry about it after that. I said this about J.J. McCarthy. I'll never think about his draft evaluation ever again.

What I thought of him in the draft makes no difference. As soon as I see him throw one pass in minicamp. And the same thing. There have been so many players that they've drafted where they've been like, third rounder man he's going to be this this we walk out there for otas and we're like oh come on and that you know training camp the guy doesn't even get for you know first team reps or whatever we've seen that so many times and so with dallas turner i don't worry too much about reviewing what he was traded for reviewing who was drafted after him. I'm thinking about what will he add to the 2025 Minnesota Vikings defense. And I think that if it's the

Patrick Jones role with production and coverage and a dynamic type of thing, it's going to be really valuable for them. And if we had gotten no hints of it, I'd be saying, oh, is this a Treadwell? Is this a Lewis scene? But at the end of the year, I think we got enough hints of that. An interception against Seattle's great play. A sack against Chicago that's breathtaking. We got at least, even setting the edge a couple times in Atlanta and Indianapolis, I noticed it stick out on tape, that I think PFF had him as a

top 25 edge rusher, uh, down the stretch after he started playing 25 snaps, he was pretty good. And he had splash plays. The thing that he can't do right now is just, I line up over you and I beat you and I get a sack. And that's what his off season goal is. And if he figures that part out, he's got the talent to be a really, really important player for them. If he doesn't figure that part out, then they drafted a guy who can't beat tackles in the first round and it's not going to be good for them. Yeah. And I think a big part of that like is adding weight like you said like that's it sounds so simple sometimes when we just reduce it down to like its most simplest form but like there's a reason he wasn't beating these tackles like the sack against chicago was incredible because he like dipped under

right who's a very good right tackle a pretty good right tackle and they just like he's gonna win with speed but oftentimes you saw him just get washed out of the play because he's little or he's underdeveloped. He's 21, just turned 22. You've got to get bigger, like you do. And that's where I have given Dallas Turner probably a little more grace than I know you say you don't care about the draft capital that you traded to get him but like it does play a role in just kind of my thought process about who he should become

but I have given him maybe more grace than he deserves given what he was traded for compared to a guy like Jared verse who was 24 who was a grown man Dallas Turner has two years to kind of get his body to look like what Jared verse did this year, at least in terms of just age progression and how we've seen bodies just change over the course of, of a guy's early years to their middle years to their prime years. So, but right now,

like how are you going to beat that tackle that, that you couldn't beat next year? Like it's putting on more weight, it's getting stronger and doing that in a way where you thread the needle where you don't lose you know that speed and explosiveness that has become such a hallmark dynamic part of your game I think he can get there I think to your point we saw flashes where it looked good enough and eye-popping enough where I was like damn this guy I there it. That's why people thought he was the best defensive player in the draft last year. I also think that playing for Brian Flores,

it's an exotic, very, very complex scheme, and I don't think Brian Flores really had a lot of interest in just saying, you're fast off the edge, just go rush the passer. I think he wanted to teach him how to play the positions across the board how many times you hear guys on this defense saying like we're interchangeable like that's why it works is because we can do everything well I think Dallas Turner probably could have put up more sacks this year Brian Flores just kind of acquiesced to the pressure and said, we drafted this guy really high. I got to get him some sacks here.

Like, just go blitz off the edge. I think he could find enough blitzes that created free runs for Dallas Turner where he could have gotten sacks. But it was more about, I think, learning the position as a whole too. And I think that's probably an important context. But, yes, he needs to put on, you could tell me 25 pounds and I would, I would agree, um, get stronger and find a way to do that while also not losing everything else that made him kind of a unicorn player coming out of Alabama. I think he can get there.

The Vikings need him to get there. Um, if they want to have a productive defense next season. I totally agree. And long-term they need him to get there. So I, all I mean, I don't mean evaluating the general manager and evaluating the draft decisions, because of course what you gave up for him and what you got back is that,

that to me is a GM and a front office decision maker thing. I got you. The individual player. Cause I, I remember this. I got you. The individual player, because I remember this, I won a milkshake from it. Ivan Pace starts to get some first team reps two years ago in training camp over Brian Asamoah and our friend Andrew Kramerson. No way they're not starting the third round pick.

And so I won the milkshake bet on Ivan Pace because of this sort of way of thinking. And Andrew's won them for me too. So I also thought KJ Osborne would catch more passes than Jordan Addison. So we all have our hits and misses. That's why we play. But when it comes to evaluating the player, it's like, I'm just seeing a better player. And I'm not thinking about where they drafted him or whatever, because I don't think the

coaches, once they're in the building, think too much about that. It's like, where can I play this guy for us to win? So when I look at him, I say, what has he got for talent? Where does he need to improve? What can he be for them? And I still think the ceiling is extremely high, but we've got to see it next year. We have to see that start to come to fruition. Year three is a huge year historically for really young pass rushers. That's when they start to really ascend, but year two has to be signs of that so they could feel confident moving on from Van Ginkle when his contract runs out and placing him into that role. Now the cornerback position, we talked about that a bit, uh, I guess just quickly, cause I want to talk safety more Byron Murphy jr., what do you think he's going to get paid?

Because it seems to me like the answer is a lot. Yeah, I mean, high teams. He's one of the, whether we think it's repeatable or not, he's one of the best options out there. And we just spent 10 minutes earlier while talking about the defensive line, segueing our way into talking about cornerbacks and how important they can be if they are in that vein of like one to 15. Is he in that one to 15? Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. But I think there's probably a team that's cornerback needy. That's going like here and i think the vikings

are if they want them they're they're gonna have to pay to keep them around i think there's value in bringing him back because like you're gonna you're not gonna have stefan gilmar he's probably gonna retire shack griffin maybe you just bring him back on like a short-term like similar deal i think he was like making four million dollars next year he was okay at that price point but if the vikings want like some continuity on the back end i think brian murphy jr is an important part of that but that's another part of the calculus and going out and getting a dj reed is like that might cost you byron murphy jr. Like I, or if you bring both of those, if you bring Byron Murphy jr.

Back and then you sign DJ Reed, that might cost you, you know, BJ Hill and Milton Williams. So I think he's going to get in the high teens. Like I think six interceptions, like his agents probably going to look at that. Like the pro bowl defensive MVP award is silly,

but he had a pick six in that game too. Look at that. Like the Pro Bowl defensive MVP award is silly. But he had a pick six in that game too. I just think like you can point to a lot of the things he does. I'm kidding about the flag football game. You know, you are, but you're sort of not. Because any tiny little amount of hype for somebody, even if it's that, it just adds on to the like people are thinking about you uh seinfeld fan did you ever watch seinfeld are you too young for seinfeld uh i say that when you're only a couple years younger than me but um there's a seinfeld episode where george goes around

saying by menin and then because it's sort of stuck in his head and he's so and so to try to get people thinking about him he's like cost, and then everybody starts thinking about him. It's sort of the same way where it's like Byron Murphy had a lot of picks in big games that are on national TV. And then he's at the pro bowl and it's like Byron Murphy. So, and I think that that will hype up his value that they just saw a lot of it. And I don't know that it's going to be worth it. What would your walkaway price be in terms of per year?

15. Yeah, that's probably, yeah, 15. And I would tell him, cause I'm just looking at comps at 15 might even be high. Like,

yeah, I was thinking more like 12. I was thinking a little lower because there's a very clear tier system with corners. There's freak show beasts. And then there's kind of nothing as far as the contracts go and then there's like the char various wards who make 12 yeah looking at it now like char various made like the average annual bit like 13 5 last year like dj reed was 11 like so i

yeah 15 is probably high but i think i could get there and convince myself that like the continuity is important when maybe a good segue to safety is like you're going to lose a lot on the back end. So like how important is like continuity, like a thing that Brian Flores talked a lot about, like not just like the gelling of personalities in the room but like a guy who's been there knows the system and I don't know if he'll have another season where he gets six interceptions in his career but he did seem to be kind of ascending in in the system in place with Brian Flores so 15 might be high that might take you out of the running of some other guys but I think I could get there for him. So the safety position, we don't know Harrison Smith's status. I'm leaning toward Harrison Smith does not come back,

but that's not sources. That's not information. When we find out will be when you find out. He's not going to tell anybody. You know, he should tell Chris Thomas and our friend first. He should let CT break it because they had a fun relationship when he was here, but I, I don't know what he's going to do. And that's a big thing to replace. I think that Josh Metellus could play a very similar role

with the IQ and the leadership capabilities. What it really comes down to is combine them. They've got, they've got the O Jackson in the building. We never talk about Jay Ward, but he was a draft pick who's played a ton of special teams and he's developed. And maybe in this conversation, but Theo Jackson gets in there and makes plays every single time had a great training camp, but they believe in that guy. So, okay. You've got Theo Jackson, you've got Josh Patelis, and then you've got this decision on Cam Bynum. So here's the thing about Cam Bynum. If you don't like cambina you're a jerk like there's just no there's just no way like anybody in the locker room it's genuine by the way it's not just though he does the dances or whatever like this is cambina he is as good of a vibes guy

a culture guy he is as intelligent of a player as we have been around the guy went to kale and transferred positions from corner to safety as fast as we've ever seen anybody do that. So this guy is a big time plus player for your defense. However, dollars matter. And if you're putting the same amount of dollars on a cam Bynum as a Javon Holland, who Brian Flores knows very well, or a Trayvon Morig, who I think is probably the most unknown, awesome player in the league. He is a vicious tackler, but he's played for the Raiders and he's a playmaker. He's just really good. He's a really good player, but no one cares because he plays for the Raiders. When you look at the other options, I think that there's probably guys who

are more impact players than combine them, who is sort of really good at everything and isn't incredible at one particular thing that would make me think about bringing in someone from the outside. I think they should, if they bring them back, you will get no criticism from me. I would tell like, good. Okay. But they, I think they have to go to the store and walk up and down the aisles at safety. That's how I kind of look at it. I agree. And I'm the biggest camp.

I know you won't find someone who covers the Vikings who would defend camp by now more than me. I think he does a lot. I think if you move on from him, I think the fact that he plays damn near every snap is something that if you lose him and Harrison Smith retires, I think Josh Metellus is great. But I think losing experience and on-field experience and someone who works that well and plays all the time like that's that's a

big ask to replace all of that being said if he's going to cost you as much as one of those other guys i do see a world where it makes sense to just pay the other guy i think think Cam Biden wants to stay here. This is, again, no reporting. I know he wants to stay here. That's a fact. That's a truth. But I don't know if he'd be willing to take less. And if he's willing to take less, if he's willing to take the, quote, hometown discount to stay here where he's comfortable, where he has kind of built his own life here like then yeah bring him back if he's willing to take less but if he is going to cost as much as a Javon Holland or in that same ballpark and Javon Holland wants to sign here I think it might make sense to go get the guy who's going to make a bigger impact

over the course of a season i think everything cam bynum does like the consistency with which he does it is so important to how this whole defense functions but i think those impact splash plays they just matter and then there's some guys out there in that same comp, in that same dollar value where you could justify saying this guy's going to make a bigger impact over the course of a season. But I don't know. It would be really hard for me to move on from Cam Bynum if he wasn't willing, if he was willing to take a little

less all that being said as well like he shouldn't take less you get to cash out once and if he decides like no i want to get paid the one time i'm probably going to get paid in my nfl career like paid like emphasis on paid go do. And it was fun covering him. But I think if the dollar values are the same or similar in the same ballpark, I think we could see the Vikings move on from him. So I, this is, call it reporting if you want, but I've asked a couple of people that I know just like, well, what do you think for a ballpark of KM Bynum?

And the number that I heard is pretty high. So I think there's going to be a ton of interest. And the explanation for that is if you're a team that doesn't have a great culture and doesn't have great leadership and needs high IQ, high character available, all these things for a safety. He's somebody that because Harrison Smith is so good for his, so his whole career, he's sort of the center of the attention of that position group.

But there are teams who have no safeties at all and are looking to just add defensive talent, but also need leadership, need character, need somebody to put a C on their uniform. Like he brings so much of that. And it's so obvious when you watch him, when you see the way people connect with them and like, these are things that evaluators put into their thought processes. And I think he's going to be very attractive from that perspective because it's, we talk about that and I think people sort of like glaze over, but from inside buildings, they're not glazing over. That's a big part of their discussion for free agency. So Bynum, I think if he signs back with the Vikings, he will be absolutely

taking less than he would be getting outside of the building, but he gets to stay in the same system, a place where he's loved the building, the stadium, the team's going to be competitive. The DC is great. Like all those different things. There are benefits. And sometimes the way that you structure contracts cash wise is not just annual value as being the way to do it. So, uh, last question on the defense for this hardcore breakdown position by position of what they're going to do in the off season is how good can they be? How good,

how much can they improve? So we will always do this by rankings, but we have to remember they played the AFC South. We have to remember they played Will Levis this year. And even though he threw a 98 yard touchdown or whatever, he was bad and Flacco. And next year will be harder

for the defense. But how much better could they be by making these additions that we've laid out? That's hard to handicap because you have to look at the fact they play Lamar Jackson next year. Like instead of playing Will Levis, you play Lamar Jackson.

The schedule is daunting. Yeah. So if we're just going by rankings, like where they rank, I think they might be worse than they were last year just because of the competition they play. But I think it is reasonable to think in another year with Brian Flores, with the players in the system having another year knowing the system, and another year of Brian Flores infusing this defense with talent

that he kind of handpicks or he writes out on a list and hands over to the general manager, it might not look better stats wise this team gave up a lot of yards like and they forced a lot of turnovers but that that anytime i talk about turnovers i say it doesn't seem sustainable but then they forced one in every single game so i i still don't think it's something you want to rely on week in, week out as a way that you win football games. But I think it might also just be part of the DNA of a Brian Flores defense. You're going to give up a lot of yards because you blitz so damn much.

And you're going to probably force some turnovers because you blitz so damn much. Do I think they can be better? Like the, the yards is breaking my brain because I i can't get out of my head like the competition that they're gonna face but i think as far as like chips on the table like you gotta come through they didn't this year like in week in week 18 they did and then they didn't and that's a hard one but like i'm i just I think back to that playoff game. And I think back to the first play of the game and the 25 yard pass to

Puka Nakua that we all saw coming and the inability to pressure Matthew Stafford. So if we're going by rankings and yardage, I have a hard time saying they're going to be better, but I do think in big games with certain additions with other players that Brian Flores has kind of hand selected. Like, I think they can be better when it matters, when it really matters. I think they can be a better defense than they were this year. What does that look like for yardage and where they rank and PFF grades?

I have no idea because it's just so hard. And you picked the schedule. I think you found 10 wins. I was looking at the schedule the other day, even though the schedule doesn't exist, but like the opponents and then the, like it is, it's going to be a bear every single week.

And the NFC North is just going to continue to be great. So yardage is hard, but I do think like when you just look at all the areas that they lacked in that playoff game, I think if you just use that as a litmus test, you can find ways to be better than you were in that game. And I think if you're the Vikings, even though there are a lot of variables that will contribute to whether you are a playoff team again, whether you win 14 games next year, you win 10. If you win a first round playoff series, you were better next year.

And I think everything that the defense can now add can make sure or help ensure that they are better. If they get back to that game, you have to be better to be the same. I would put it that way. You have to be probably significantly better to be the same. And that's not to say they were bad, but they were really good as a defense, but certainly not flawless.

And if I can go a season without using bend, don't break, that would be a first for a long time. And eventually Ben don't break always does break. So I think that's a good point for, they need to be more stacked in order to get the same results for next year. Just trying to sort of stick gum and post-it notes over a defensive tackle position or a corner position. They had to do that because they were paying $71 million in dead cap. They're not anymore. So now it's time. And like they have a first round pick in a draft with tons of players at the position that they

need to get a difference maker for once on defense early in the draft. It's been a long time since they've been able to do that. So a lot of expectation there, but also from our perspective, so much to happen on this defense that we will be covering along the way. So thank you, Dane, for a part one of this part two podcast series of two, if it's a series, a duo of podcasts with you in the off season. So thanks for your time. And we'll talk again soon.