Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Do the Broncos deserve to be favored against the Josh Dobbs Vikings?

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

Matthew Coller and Manny Hill talk about how the Vikings match up with the Denver Broncos and how much we should get caught up in the Dobbs moment when it comes to projecting this game and going forward. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with Manny Hill. Hopefully you're enjoying this evening's football and listening to us. Although I saw that Lamar Jackson, just as I was getting set up here, got hurt, which is terrible because he was having a great year. And I feel like it's been every year that he's been dealing with injuries of late and that's not great for the Baltimore Ravens but I wanted to share a quick story with you Manny that you will appreciate before we dive into Josh Dobbs and Broncos and naming random Broncos and

all the things that we're planning on doing here tonight on the show. So earlier today, I went out to TCO Performance Center, and I sat down with our friends Will Raggetts and Andrew Kramer, and we recorded a podcast, and we had a lot of fun laughing, joking, football. Great time. Great time. And I get home, I sit down on my laptop, and I go to pull up the audio, and there's no audio. There's just a video of us talking, but no audio because what happened was I left the thing on mute the whole time.

So we just sat in a room for no reason. And you can appreciate this as a producer, how much of a nightmare this is. and unfortunately that was going to be tomorrow night's episode on youtube and on the podcast feed uh the the truncated version is uh will and andrew think they're going to win in denver and you could figure out the rest i guess so i'm going to go live tomorrow night and answer fan questions on friday night in place of the usual round table but that is the nightmare scenario. So I apologize that there's no round table. Well, there was one.

I mean, you can, if anyone wants the video, watching us talking, but you can't hear anything. So lip readers, that episode might be for you. Yeah, wow, that's tough. And yeah, to your point, as a radio producer in my own right, I've been there. I've had situations like that where you record something or you think you have something and it's really good content and then you listen back to it and there's the audio is like bad or in this

particular case, there is no audio at all. Yeah, that sucks, man. that's too bad if that happens so i guess you have to make up for it by going live yes i i will i'll make it up to the audience who is breathlessly waiting for more josh dobbs analysis uh from us uh which is what we're going to dive into first and then we've got our five favorite broncos of all time later on want to talk about russell wilson with you and your opinion there and uh something that I saw that was really interesting, actually a question someone posed to our friend Eric Eager on Twitter that I want to dive into with you as well. But let's go hardcore here a little bit, Manny.

Do you think the Broncos are good now? Are you thinking, usually at the end of the show I'll ask, Manny, do you think they'll win this game? And you'll say yes or no. Why don't we just start with that? Do you think they're going to win this game against the Denver Broncos? A couple of weeks ago, we were kind of looking at the schedule, and I had this pegged down as a loss.

I think, you know, based on what we've seen from the Vikings the last couple of weeks, especially last week against the New Orleans Saints, particularly in that first half, it just kind of feels like this offense the pedal in the second half, you know, because there was just, I don't think there was much of a belief that the Saints could really come all the way back from a, you know, a three touchdown deficit to tie or win the game. So he really kind of eased up on the pedal there in the second half. But that first half was so good. And Josh Dobbs was playing about as you could you could ask for from a quarterback. And I think I'm starting to feel like that's going to continue. The Broncos. Defensively, you know, they're ranked 32nd in the league and like so many different defensive categories. But I think a lot of that has to do with that big 70 spot that the Dolphins put on them early in the season because they gave up over like 700 yards in that game. So I do think that the defensive statistics for the Broncos

are a little bit inflated because of that one game. And that unit's played a lot better in the last few weeks. And, you know, they forced the Bills into a lot of turnovers on Sunday night. But I think with the kind of groove that the Vikings are in offensively, I think they're going to find a way to go down and win. And I'm just not sure I really buy into the Broncos being a good team again or as good as they were hoping to be when they first traded for Russell Wilson two off seasons ago.

So I think the Broncos are better than what they were last year, I think just by default, because Nathaniel Hackett had no idea what he was doing. And I think Sean Payton kind of knows what he's doing, at least at this stage of his career. So I think the Broncos are better than what they've been last year. But I still think the Vikings are in a position where they can go down and play really well. So here's the last four weeks of opponents scoring against the Denver Broncos.

They gave up 19 to Kansas City in a loss where their offense struggled. Then they gave up 17 to Green Bay in a win, nine to Kansas City in a win, nine to Kansas City in a win, and 22 to Buffalo in a win that was hysterical and ridiculous. But still, I mean, that's only one game over 20 points in the last four weeks for them after being a complete disaster for most of the season. And even when you look at opposing teams yardage against them, I mean, 369 yards for the bills, this last game, not a huge total.

They got run all over in that game, but under 200 yards passing Patrick Mahomes. I know he was dealing with an illness, but Kansas city only went for just over 200. Green Bay was under 200. They have really turned it around in pretty impressive ways in the middle of the season. And it kind of speaks to when we evaluate strength of schedule, this is something that gets talked about endlessly in football. And I've always had a really tough time wrapping my own

head around it because at the beginning of the season, we'll say, well, this team's got an easy schedule. And you're like, dude, halfway into the season, this thing will be blown up by four weeks from now. Your stats on strength of schedule will be blown up. And the same thing happens throughout the middle of a season where it's how you're playing. I mean, are the Vikings a difficult team to play? They're on their third quarterback. And yet somehow the answer is yes. And over the last two weeks, they have scored the sixth most points in the NFL.

And you're absolutely right that Kevin O'Connell even admitted that he took the foot off the gas pedal and wondered aloud if he should have done that but if they had put a little more uh i think pressure on the saints offensively been a little more aggressive they could have scored even more and even then their point totals over the last two weeks have been very good and been emblematic of a top notch offense, which is a tiny, tiny sample size. But it's also Atlanta and New Orleans are not these joke teams that are tanking. Those are two teams that are fighting for their division. And now you go play another team that I think is pretty good. If you're going to talk about why the Vikings could hit a stumbling block here, I think it is one that Denver is a much different version of what

they've been before. The other thing is that Josh Dobbs has in his very small sample size of playing in the NFL. He has had those ups and downs. He's had really good games. He's had some other games where he turns the ball over. And just in general, Manny, when a team wins five games in a row, you think that eventually they're just going to have something go wrong, right? And playing without Jordan Hicks, making that adjustment, I doubt Anthony Barr could take on a full workload if he's even going to play. It just seems like there's those factors weighing into it. Even if I think they should win, and even on paper, if I think they should win, I leave the door open to that because I'm taking the Broncos a lot more seriously than I would have three weeks ago when we had this discussion.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think when when they had that 70 point game that they gave up against the Dolphins, I mean, everybody was kind of. OK. against the Dolphins. I mean, everybody was kind of... Manny froze. Let's see if Manny comes back. Did I freeze? Let me know if I froze in the comments section. Oh, now he's back.

Now he's back. You're back, Manny. Okay. You just froze for a second there. I don't know what happened, but you're back. So you were saying something about the Broncos. Now I forget what you were going to say. But start at the beginning of whatever you were saying. Well, no, I think the Broncos have certainly shown a lot of improvement because they were kind of a laughingstock when the Dolphins hung 70 points on them.

And everybody was making fun of them. And Sean Payton, ha, ha, ha, doesn't know what he's doing at this point. Why did they bring Vance Joseph back to be the defensive coordinator? All of this stuff. And the defense, I think, has gotten a lot better. The thing that I wonder, though, about the Broncos, and we'll kind of get into this when we talk about Russell Wilson specifically, offensively, it still seems like at times they still tend to struggle. They did put up 300 yards in Buffalo on Monday night. But, you know, when you look at some of the games that

they've had recently, it hasn't been a lot of strong offensive production. The second game against Kansas City, when they did beat the Chiefs 24-9, like you said, Mahomes is dealing with that illness. Broncos only had 240 yards of offense in that game. And you still kind of wonder, like, when is, you know, I mean, and Sean Payton being the offensive mind that he is, you know, when are we going to see this Broncos offense really start to show a lot of improvement and get going and start looking the way that i think people were hoping that they would look even last year when nathaniel hackett was the head coach so that's kind of something i'll be looking to watch for on sunday as well as you know what brian flores is going to be able to dial up

defensively against russell wilson and can the Broncos kind of overcome some of the offensive struggles that they've had, even though overall as a team, they've played better in recent weeks. What I'm seeing on paper with Russell Wilson is that Sean Payton has decided that he's going to treat Russell Wilson. Like he is a kind of backup level quarterback. And what I mean is the short passing game and the play action and mostly leaning on the run these last few weeks for Russell Wilson. It's been since week four,

since the man threw for 200 yards, like what? I mean, that is not what you paid like 18 first round picks for, uh, for Russell Wilson, but in the last few weeks, he's been fairly efficient. Hasn't really turned the ball over. He's only got one turnover worthy play in the last few weeks, he's been fairly efficient, hasn't really turned the ball over. He's only got one turnover worthy play in the last three weeks and is graded out pretty well as a top half of the league quarterback. But they are not asking him to be the old version of Russell Wilson. I think Sean Payton probably got in and was like, all right, I'm going to show how stupid Nate Hackett was. Here I go. And then after the first few weeks went, oh, well, this guy basically can't do the things that he used to be able to do.

So now we're going to focus on the run game, focus on the play action game. The thing about the Vikings is over these last five weeks, of course, we're going to talk about Josh Dobbs, and that deserves to be the center story of the NFL. It's a quarterback. It's always more exciting. The run defense again, like not making front page news on ESPN, but the run defense has been one of the best in the entire league.

They have moved themselves up despite that Philly game early in the year into the top five in terms of yards per attempt. And that gives them a chance in any game that opposing teams cannot just play it safe and hand the ball off. Like they're forcing quarterbacks to beat them. And over these five weeks, none of those quarterbacks have been able to do it. Even against San Francisco, they were really excellent.

And they held Christian McCaffrey under four yards per carry. Very, very hard to do. In Green Bay, they've got a couple of good running backs, or at least in the past they've had times where they were good. They couldn't run the football at all. Elvin Kamara's got a great history. He couldn't run the ball at all for the Saints.

And when that's the case, it gives you a really good shot. And you're going to ask now Russell Wilson, I think, to try to stand in there and diagnose everything that's going on if they can continue to do that without Jordan Hicks. But that is my big concern for this game is, yeah, the Vikings have really gotten back on the right side of turnover luck big time in the last five weeks. We knew that that was going to have to happen in order for them to go on a winning streak. But I think Jordan Hicks has played as well as any linebacker in the league during that time, especially considering all the things that he has to communicate to his teammates, him being out, and unfortunately on just some kind of random play where his leg hits somebody else. Now you're asking an undrafted free agent, Ivan Pace,

who's been very good, to handle a lot, though, and probably play the entire game unless you're getting Anthony Barr in there. But with the communication and the headset thing, you can't really, like, change the helmet to other people. You can't just, okay, Harrison Smith, take Pace's helmet. Like, that's just a really hard thing to do on the fly. So that to me is where these things kind of line up. And, you know, Thor is bringing up, you know, it's been an emotional last couple of weeks. It feels like a trap game.

I do feel that way. But I also feel like on paper, when I look at how they've performed, that I still think they're a stronger team than Denver. So I'm really conflicted going into this one. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, it's tough. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, I had the Vikings losing this game just because for that very reason that, well, you know, the Broncos are playing a little bit better and it's a tough place to play the altitude, all of that stuff. It's a kind of a weird,

weird game at a weird time. But I just feel like it feels like the Vikings, especially on the offensive side and defensively, too, but offensively, it feels like they've really got themselves into a groove now. And Josh Dobbs is really settled in with the system and the scheme. And, you know, I think if they can just limit the turnovers and put up enough points and not put the defense into tough situations. I mean, I think that's going to be the most important thing for Josh Dobbs is, you know, you can't have the safety that you had in Atlanta. You can't have the lost fumbles and that sort of thing because it does feel like the Broncos, you know,

I mean, look no further than Monday night in Buffalo. The Broncos are kind of an opportunistic team where they'll, you know, if you give them a little bit of life, they're going to take advantage of it, even though, you know, they've had their ups and downs this year, too. So I think the most thing most important thing is going to be just avoid that costly turnover, you know, inside your own 30 yard line that gives the Broncos some confidence and puts them in a position where the offense doesn't have to move a lot of yards to put points on the board. They can avoid stuff like that. And I like the Vikings chances. Yeah. And Dobbs and his turnover history are the one thing that concerns you a little bit because they do have playmakers on the other side. I mean,

turnovers are random. There's no question about it at times, but also when you have players that are capable of making plays, you know, Patrick Sertan is one of them at the top of the list that you have to be concerned about. I saw something that Sean Payton said that I wanted to bring up because for the most part, we've been talking about this team as if they were not going to have Justin Jefferson for a little while longer. And so when we go into these games, we're like, well, okay, you know, Hawkinson's going to have to keep going and Addison, and we'll see these matchups. And we just haven't really even brought up Justin Jefferson much, even though his window is open to return.

And Sean Payton said that they're preparing as if Justin Jefferson's going to play. Now I don't think that Sean Payton has moles inside the vikings organization or whatever i mean maybe he does like george payton was here and there were other people uh who were in that building that went and worked for the broncos uh george payton's the broncos gm he used to work with the vikings as their assistant gm if people don't know that uh and so maybe maybe he's got some intel maybe he left some uh video equipment behind a spy on their practice i don't know that. So maybe, maybe he's got some Intel. Maybe he left some video equipment behind a spy on their practice. I don't know.

It's not the Patriots. So probably not. But I just have been under the impression that Justin Jefferson is going to come back maybe after the bye week that they want him to be a hundred percent. But I also had this thought as Sean Payton was saying it like, well, they're not going to tell us which week they're going to put him out there, right? Like they want it to be a surprise. Here's Jefferson. And so I guess I really do wonder if we're going to see him this week. I think the answer is still no. And it's maybe a good little cat and mouse for Kevin O'Connell to not give out

any hints about when he's coming back. So he can have an element of surprise for the opponent even if they are preparing for jefferson but when that happens then we get to really feel what it's like to have josh dobbs as your quarterback we've seen over history backup quarterbacks journeymen guys who show up can have these short stints. Sometimes they sustain, sometimes they don't. But what I've wanted to see since he got here and since he beat Atlanta is, all right, what's this really going to look like when they have their full pen of players

that we expect them to have, not just for the short term, how dangerous they could be, but also for the long term. What do you think? What do you think about the idea of Jefferson potentially coming back? Well, I mean, it would be interesting if he came back this week. Obviously, I think it would it would, you know, increase the Vikings chances, you know.

But you also have to think about like, OK, how close to 100 percent is he? You know, we talked about in a recent episode, we talked about how important it is going to be for him to, you know, wait till he's 100 percent before he steps back onto the field. Hamstrings are very tricky. You come out too soon. You come back too soon and you might tweak that thing again. And then all of a sudden you run the risk of maybe tearing it or, you know, repulling it. And now all of a sudden you're out for, you know, five or six more weeks, possibly the rest of the season at that point. So you want to get them back at a hundred percent. But yeah,

I think he would just add an extra dynamic element to what we have seen as a really productive offense in his absence, specifically with Josh Dobbs. And I think with Dobbs' ability to escape and extend plays as well, I think can really be enhanced if Justin Jefferson's in the lineup because Justin Jefferson is so instinctive as well. He's such a pro's pro. He runs great routes, obviously. We know all of those things, but asking a team to have to cover him for an extended period

of time because the quarterback is getting outside of the pocket and expanding a play is just going to make him even more dangerous because that's a lot to ask of a secondary to try and... It's a lot to ask of a secondary to guard him at any time but to guard him on a

extended play because the quarterback has the ability to get outside and and uh make it harder in that way uh it's just going to add an extra element to this offense so i'm i'm excited to see it hopefully jj can get back soon and uh we can really see what josh dobbs can do in this offense with a um with a full, healthy unit. Something that keeps coming into my mind and my mentions as well and my mailbags as well, and I'm not really sure how to quite answer it, is whether the Vikings actually have a better offense with Josh Dobbs. I mean, the scoring output for two games has been better, but we just know how little of a sample size two games is there have been two games where kirk cousins has crazy great numbers there's been two game samples where everybody wants kirk cousins sent the in a rocket ship to the moon

you know because he's been so frustrating to watch and like look carolina and chicago there was no reason to think kirk cousins was going to turn around and like, look, Carolina and Chicago, there was no reason to think Kirk Cousins was going to turn it around. And then the guy comes out and plays two unbelievable games against the 49ers and the Packers. Like, who knows, right? So there could always be something different coming around the corner for us.

And yet, as what you were just talking about, it's not just that he runs, but it's also that when you have these other receiving weapons who can play off of that. And TJ Hawkinson was talking about it today. It was actually really fun to listen to. He was talking about how,

when he's out there on a route and he looks back at Josh Dobbs and he's on the move, he has a good sense for is his eyes staying down the field. Like he's going to, you know, go for a pass or is he, you know, looking like I need you to kind of go block somebody or whatever they already have this kind of chemistry and i also ran across

a stat that no quarterback has been more valuable by expected points added on the ground than josh dobbs this year like there's something here of that running element that matters when it comes to producing points it might not matter when it comes to yards per pass attempt as much or quarterback rating, although his has been good through these two games or whatever other statistic. And yet it's like this, this sort of hidden success that happens when this guy runs,

that gives you a chance potentially to score more points. But I also am trying hard to fight the forces of overreaction which is almost impossible in a situation such as this one yeah it's i'm struggling with the same thing because i keep thinking like you know well that clunker is going to happen at some point you know is it going to happen this sunday i don't know but you know you you just kind of look ahead at the schedule. They still got a couple of more, you know, really games that you look at on paper and say, okay, yeah, we can see them winning those games. Then you get into a tough stretch with Cincinnati potentially

and two games against Detroit. But, yeah, you feel like that clunker is coming. But then, you know, you look at what we've seen so far and it's like well he's not he's not really giving any sort of indication that that clunker is coming you know we're just kind of assuming that it's going to come because law of averages every team has you know a bad game i mean kirk cousins largely has played well this year before he got hurt but he had you know a game in carolina where he did not play very well at all the vikings still won the game but kirk didn't play well at all in that game he largely has played

pretty well in the in the other games uh this season so everybody is susceptible to having a bad game with josh dobbs though it's just hard to figure out, like, when is that going to be? And then if and when it does happen, is that just a blip on the radar or is it something that is going to continue? And that's what makes this whole thing so fascinating, because even though he's looked really good in these last two games, we still don't really fully know exactly what this is going to be looking like come week 18 when the Vikings are possibly in a position to try and get into the playoffs. You know what's going to happen is he's going to have his random bad game when Jefferson returns and he's going to want him traded. That's what's going to happen as a, it'll be like Dobbs has that to fumble to interception game. They lose. And it's the first game Jefferson comes back and then I'll get all the,

like they're one in whatever with Jefferson, they should probably get rid of him and trade it for draft picks. Like I just, what, what, what is going on right now? Joe Burrow is going to the locker room with a right wrist injury. What is happening in this football game? This was supposed to be like a game of the year. I'm sorry to scream that out in the middle of Vikings talk, but what is going on with both great quarterbacks being injured?

Pittsburgh's going to easily make the playoffs because everybody else is, literally every other quarterback in that division is injured. Collar, it's the damn Thursday night football. Even when we get a good matchup, like tonight, the Bengals and the Ravens, we get a situation where both quarterbacks, both stud, outstanding, amazing quarterbacks

get injured in the game. This is why I hate Thursday night football. This is why I hate it. I can't stand it. You can never have nice things. Folks, I cannot believe how many sports are going on right now. And guess what? There's a way to go to all of them with affordable tickets.

My friends, you are going to want to check out Game Time. It is the fast and easy way to buy tickets to any sports event that you want to attend and much, much more. One of the cool parts about GameTime is that they have flash deals on last minute tickets and a low price guarantee, which means if you find something lower in the section or row, they will credit you 110%. You also get images of your seat locations, which I love because those maps can be a little confusing. Buy tickets in seconds and have them arrive right there on your phone.

It's great. Download the GameTime app, create an account, use the code INSIDER for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account, redeem code INSIDER for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account. Redeem code INSIDER for $20 off your first purchase. Download GameTime today. Last minute tickets. Lowest

price guaranteed. No, they should have just put Titans and Jaguars on tonight and just avoided the whole thing together. Oh, man. Man, this is brutal. Okay, so got a quick ad read. And then I have a very interesting. Wow.

Is Jake Browning going into the game? Former Vikings quarterback. That's something. But I have a really interesting question that somebody asked our friend Eric Eager on Twitter that I want to run by you. But first, I want to remind everyone that a couple weeks from now, I am headed to Las Vegas for the football game there. And if you want to escape the Minnesota December weather like I will be doing, you can join me at Circa in Las Vegas. I'll be hanging out there doing the podcast for a couple days leading up to the game.

You can find me outside at Stadium Sw swim watching the gigantic tv that they have and there's no good way to describe if you haven't seen it how big this is it's an actual like football field size uh television with nothing but sports on it which is my dream they've got heated pools there even if it's on the cooler side in the 70s when we go out to Vegas. One of the best places on earth. And there is a special party for Minnesota sports fans, including drink specials and a ticket giveaway that Friday night at Circa. So come meet me there. Go to CircaLasVegas.com.

You have to RSVP. So go to where it says huddle up at the Overhang Bar, which is what's inside Circa circa where this party will be and make a whole weekend of it at circa that's what i'm going to do it is located on the amazing fremont street we're going to have a great minnesota december getaway to vegas at circa it'll be lots of fun so book your spot today and i will see you there so here is the question that was posed to our pal eric eager on twitter someone asked who would be favored on a neutral site or i guess it could just be minnesota uh the 2022 minnesota vikings with cousins or the 2023 minnesota vikings assuming that they're healthy so you get jefferson for both teams

uh with josh dobbs a quarterback so 2022 vikings versus 2023 vikings which team would be favored to win that game if they were to play each other which team would be favored huh you could just do it of like who would who do you think would win who do you think would win between last year's Vikings and this year's Vikings okay I actually think the 2023 team would win and here's why I think certainly you have a defense that may be lesser in talent from the 2022 team but the defense is playing much better. And I think it has to do with scheme, obviously with what Brian Flores is doing. And also to that point, if you factor in Josh Dobbs being able to throw against the Ed Donatel

defense of 2022, I think he would be very successful because I don't know if Ed Donatel would be knowing what he was doing out there. So I would take the 2023 Vikings to beat the 2022 Vikings, even though, you know, that team last year won 13 games and won the division. There were just so many games that they won based on just circumstance and having a clutch play by Kirk Cousins down the stretch or a big catch by Justin Jefferson. That was also a team that got, when they went up against a really good quality opponent, they didn't just lose.

They got obliterated by the Eagles last year. They got obliterated at home by Dallas last year as well. And so I think when you factor that in, the game late in the season at Lambeau against a not very good Packers team where they just kind of laid an egg to when that team lost last year, it just did not look good at all. Whereas this year, you know, a lot of those, they've lost a lot of close games, but they have yet to really, maybe, you know, maybe that Eagles game, you know, for about three quarters, they got, you know, manhandled pretty well, but they still were able to kind of get back into that game and make it interesting at the end.

So I think just with the way the 2023 team has played this year, even though the record isn't as good i think they if you match up the two teams together i think i think this year's team wins uh timbro slice says does the 2022 vikings team get the luck from last year you know what a big part of the luck was though was last year's schedule was not hard for the vikings i mean this year the beginning of the the season schedule i mean we talked this year, the beginning of the season schedule, I mean, we talked about it at the beginning of the year where it's at Philly, it's playing the Chiefs,

it's playing the 49ers. And we know that, by the way, it is Jake Browning in the game, former Vikings quarterback now playing for Cincinnati, just what everybody wanted on Thursday night football. But good luck to him. He's a really, really good dude. So I hope that works out for him against the great defense. Anyway, put that back aside.

So I think that like last year, that was a major part of the story that wasn't really talked about a ton was when you looked at a lot of their wins. And I know one was in Buffalo. It was magical. It was incredible. But aside from that, it was Taylor Heineke thrown an interception at the end of a game, Skylar Thompson, then Teddy Bridgewater in a week where he had had a concussion before, and they were without their left tackle, I think. And you know, the, the, there were

several other games where they were playing teams that just weren't that special. Arizona was horrible. Chicago was horrible. So this year, I do think that they have put on better showings against average teams and played more competitively. Like they have the huge win against the 49ers. And I would call last week a pretty, pretty big win as well. The running element is massive because Daniel Jones ran all over them. And that would be the comparison is like, if Daniel Jones could run all over them and pass all over them, then Josh Dobbs could do. And if, you know, Garrett Wilson made them look ridiculous last year and a number of other

receivers, then Justin Jefferson would make them look ridiculous as well. And the defensive side of it is just such a huge part of this conversation that, you know, I think that especially with the way that of it is just such a huge part of this conversation that I think that especially with the way that Daniil Hunter is playing, the way the Vikings offense struggled to identify last year blitzes, which they've done way, way better this year, that I think Brian Flores is having a field day with last year's version of the offensive line. And it can't be left out of the discussion of how much better the line is and how much better the defense is. I do think this is a stronger team, and that's only with the asterisk

if Josh Dobbs doesn't turn into a pumpkin. Because if Josh Dobbs suddenly becomes the version that was happening the last few weeks in Arizona, well, then that conversation goes out of the window. But I do think this team is better than they were last year. And the point differential at this point would also tell you that as well. Yeah, I mean, and it's crazy to think about. This team was, this year's team was 0-3 and they were 1-4.

And we were talking about them selling off players and going into full-on tank mode before the trade deadline. We were speculating about that. And now here we are looking at the way they've played over the last month. And it's like, yeah, this is a pretty good team that is not really showing any signs of slowing down. Now, we'll see what happens on Sunday but you know right now it's it's hard to really um it's hard to ignore just how well overall they've been playing as a team you know even you know before Kirk Cousins got hurt and then since Josh Dobbs stepped into that quarterback

role um it's it's hard to believe but they they just they look good defensively they've been really strong and get and seem to be getting a lot better as those guys get settled in to Brian Flores' system. And, you know, so much of last year, and last year was fun. Don't get me wrong. Last year's team was fun. The way they were winning games, it was kind of crazy. But I think that team just, when you really kind of take the sort of the excitement, the fandom out of watching last year's team, you kind of realize they weren't really a 13-win team.

They won 13 games, but they were probably more like a 9, maybe a 10-win team at best. And when you look at this year's team, they look to be kind of trending to be kind of a nine, maybe a 10 win team as well. And, and they're, and they're playing better. They're playing better on the defensive side of the ball too. So I think, you know, when you kind of take all of those things into consideration, it's it's you start to realize that, yeah, this is, this is a better team than last year's squad. And we will see how this opinion holds up over the coming weeks

because that's how we feel right now. And we're going to get more information as we go forward. I want to circle back and talk about Russell Wilson specifically. He is playing in a version of Russell Wilson that looks nothing like what he looked like in his prime. He was one throw away, several inches away from being a two-time Super Bowl champion, and also had several other years that his team went into the playoffs as having potential to go deep and was a Super Bowl caliber team. A great quarterback who's had a great career.

My question is about Russell Wilson, because I don't think this is ever going to be way better. So we kind of know like what Russell Wilson's career is, even when we're watching the later stages, unless he totally surprises me and starts throwing for 350 yards again. But I doubt. Is he a Hall of Famer to you? I'm going to say yes. Although they always, you know, I've heard a lot of people say, well, if you have to think about it, because I think there was enough of, you know, the first nine, the first nine years of Russ's career. He was just I mean, you just look at the win loss record and the numbers and just how good those Seattle teams were, even after, you know, the those couple of years after the Legion of Boom kind of disbanded and kind of fell apart and really kind of became Russell Wilson's team. He was still really good and they were winning still and going to the playoffs and very competitive.

So it's hard to really ignore that. I guess I kind of look at it as, you know, just switching sports a little bit. I think about it like Joe joe mauer's career with the minnesota twins where you look at joe mauer as a catcher he was great like best catcher in major league baseball and you look at the numbers offensively as a hitter and the gold gloves uh defensively um he was one of the great catchers of all time, but then you factor in, okay, when he moves to first base, the offensive numbers aren't quite as good. First base is not as not as premium, a defensive position. So it doesn't get held as in, in high regard.

Although I would argue Maurer was a pretty good defensive first baseman as well. Should have wanted to go glove one of those years too, but he got robbed by the way. But I think you kind of, you kind of look at those careers that's kind of the same where the first the first decade of that career is just fantastic and and hall of fame worthy um but then you kind of wonder like the last you know four or five six years going to be held held against him uh when it comes down to voting i i think he will get in um i think if he can find a way to get like one more like winning season where the broncos make the playoffs and maybe make a little bit of noise however it gets done

even if he doesn't look amazing doing it um i think that will help his cause. And, you know, I think he'll eventually find a way to get into Canton. You know, the first 10 years of his career, it looks like he's going to be first ballot to me, but it might be a situation where he'll get in eventually, but it might take a few years before it, that time actually comes after he retires. So I've got the pro football reference hall of Fame monitor up here, which does a very good job of combining a player's statistics and accomplishments together, because I mean, still, let's be honest, those those Hall of Fame voters are going to factor a Super Bowl as much as you might not like it because Dan Marino didn't win one. But if you're

a fringy quarterback for the Hall of Fame and you have a Super Bowl, it's going to enhance your case. And I'll give you where he stands in relation to the other quarterbacks of kind of the era-ish. Some he came in a little later, but the era-ish. Clearly behind these guys, Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Brees. Matt Ryan is surprisingly high on this list from the hall of fame monitor i think he's another one people debate but according to this at least uh he shouldn't be much of a debate that's a little surprising to me ben roethlisberger philip rivers those are the guys who are clearly ahead of russell wilson in his ballpark is eli manning matthew stafford cam newton and those are kind of and then it's like a pretty big drop off to the next And his ballpark is Eli Manning, Matthew Stafford, Cam Newton.

And then it's like a pretty big drop-off to the next most recent quarterback. So if he's in the ballpark, according to the Hall of Fame monitor, which is not gospel, of course, but is just one metric way to kind of figure out where it stands, if he's in the same range as a Matthew Stafford and Cam Newton that to me puts him a little bit on the fringe without another as you said like trip to the AFC championship or trip to the Super Bowl or just Pro Bowl caliber season if he's just grinding out like bad seasons where he's going to throw for 3,400 yards and you know what I saw Adam Schefter tweeting like oh he's so

much different this year, like getting 16 touchdowns, like wait, is 16 touchdowns a lot, man? Like, I don't think so. Maybe if it was a 1996 by this point of having 16 touchdowns would be pretty good. But I think what's similar of all those quarterbacks is that at one point you could make an argument that they are upper echelon, but those other ones we were talking about, Matt Ryan, and then above that Phillip rivers and Ben Roethlisberger. And then of course the Brady Manning tier and the Rogers is it,

it just goes on for longer their peak. And there isn't as much of a, of a dip as he had. I think that those are fair, quarterbacks of stanford uh stanford stafford and uh cam newton and i don't think either one of those guys belong in the hall of fame yeah it's it's interesting and i wonder if the matt ryan thing i wonder if his mvp that he won in 2016 is maybe a little bit because russ has won an MVP he's been in the conversation before but he's never actually won one and I wonder if like Matt Ryan winning that MVP in 2016 is kind of like what kind of puts him over over Russell Wilson in that regard because you look at I mean Matt Ryan's made one Super Bowl appearance Russell Wilson's actually made two and so you know

the numbers are kind of similar um production wise during that really good stretch for Russ so yeah I mean it's it's an interesting conversation I think I think if I'll say yes that he that he does get in but like I said before if he does I think it's it's going to be one of those things where he's going to be eligible for probably three, four or five years before I think we start getting some traction on him getting in. I think it's going to take a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And when you look at just to go even deeper into the statistical weeds, when you look at his weighted career approximate value by pro football reference, he's much closer to Roethlisberger, which I think is probably I do think he's maybe a little bit ahead of of Matt Stafford and Cam Newton. If you were ranking those three, I would probably put Wilson first. But, you know, what might hurt him is when they won the Super Bowl, it was so much centric around their defense and the Legion of boom and so forth. And these are the nuances that, you know,

kind of end up determining what we think about these discussions. I don't think, you know, there's some, you know, I mean, Eli Manning may end up doing it as well for those super bowls, but also the early Manning's a great comparable for Wilson because the first half of Manning's career is, I will argue, all day long. It's a great first half of his career. But what happened was the league changed midway through his career. So those statistics that he's putting up in 05, 06, 07, those look terrible by today's standards because that was 20 years ago.

And by those standards, he was 20 years ago and by those standards he was routinely statistically among the best quarterbacks but it was just a different league at that point as far as passing the football anyway uh staying with a little bit of the bronco theme when the vikings play a random team that has a great history we got to talk about our favorite historical players and every once in a while i see that tweet come up that's like hey football fans could just sit around and talk about random players all day i'm like hell yeah we can so let's do that uh i asked you to make your list a simple one of your five favorite denver broncos of your lifetime manny so let's fire it up. Who are your five favorite Denver Broncos? Okay. So counting down from five to one, and this was actually really hard because when you look at the Broncos

history, especially like in the nineties, when Mike Shanahan became the head coach and, and you know, they had the great zone running scheme and so many running backs during Terrell Davis obviously was, was the best one out of the bunch, but so many other just random running backs being, you know, so productive in random seasons. So I went the route of a guy who didn't play much with the Broncos. He was with the Broncos for a while and was an assistant, assistant coach. I'm going to go number five is Gary Kubiak. And I'm going to tell you why. One, because Gary Kubiak was, like we've talked about,

was just the godfather of the zone running scheme. And I figure, you know, if I'm going to you know if I'm gonna have if I'm gonna pick like oh I'll pick a Landis Gary because he had a really fun season with the bra or I'll pick Mike Anderson Clinton Portis all these guys and I'm thinking I can't just I can't bunch all of those guys together so why don't I just take the guy who was really responsible for those guys being productive running backs during the late 90s and into the early 2000s. So Gary Kubiak is number five. And, you know, he was John Elway's backup for a number of years back in the 80s and into the early 90s and eventually became

an assistant coach under Mike Shanahan. And then later on on obviously won the Super Bowl as the head coach of the Broncos in 2015. So Gary Kubiak is number five. Number four is a guy who was, I think, really well-liked around the league and really well-respected and really got to showcase his talent once Peyton Manning started throwing in the football and it wasn't Tim Tebow anymore. And that's the late Demarius Thomas, who was really, really, really good, really productive. You look at those years where Peyton Manning was his quarterback. You look at those numbers. They are outrageous. He's like one of the best wide receivers in the entire NFL and a big guy, big physical guy, but could also run like a deer as well. A really good, really good wide receiver.

And tragically, his life was cut short just a couple of years ago at such a young age. But Demarius Thomas is my number four. Love that. Yeah, I like that you're going a little bit different here. Of course, you mentioned Gary Kubiak. You're going to get no pushback from me. I mean, I love that style of offense and that style of offense, which starts with Shanahan and even goes back to the San Francisco days and so forth. But they really perfected it. I mean, he just had such an ability to make the most of everybody. I mean, Brian Greasy had a great year there. Jake Plummer had a great year. His legacy with the Broncos is really something. And as far as Demarius Thomas goes, probably one of the most underappreciated players.

Sometimes when a great player ends up getting paired with an all-time great quarterback, we just go like, well, of course you should have all those yards and so forth. And I like that you also stretched beyond just that 90s era as well into that section of Broncos history. So who is your top three?

Number three is a guy that might kind of surprise you that he's on this list. I'm going to go with nose tackle Greg Cragen. And here's why. For only one reason, that guy, guy if you if I challenge all the listeners and the viewers of this of this podcast go look up the Super Bowl highlight video of Super Bowl 24 where the poor Denver Broncos are just getting annihilated by Joe Montana and Jerry Rice and the San Francisco 49ers. 55-10 was the final in the Superdome. And Greg Cragen was miked up.

The Broncos nose tackle, he's miked up for this game. And there's a stretch in the second quarter where Montana's just throwing, he's just throwing darts all over the Broncos defense. And poor Greg Cragen is just battling. He's in the trenches trenches man going just going toe to toe with his great 49ers offensive line and he's just he's breathing hard and he's just you know Montana throws a 20-yard pass at Jerry Rice and you hear Greg Cragen just go what's happening man what's going on like come on guys we got to keep going we got you know he's on

the he's on the sideline saying come on we got to keep going we got to keep going. He's on the sideline saying, come on. We got to keep going. We got to keep fighting. This game's not over yet. We got a whole second half to play. We got to keep fighting. And I just always appreciated that, that that guy was just out there battling and playing his ass off. And in a blowout game where the team as a whole was just completely overmatched. And, and Greg Craig was a,

was a pretty good player in the late nineties, or I'm sorry, in the late eighties into the early nineties, he was a pro bowler and all pro nose tackle for, for a Broncos defense. That was pretty good. And that included guys like Steve Atwater and whatnot too. So Greg Craig is a number three on my list.

You kind of went rogue a little bit there with that pick. But it's funny because when you said Broncos nose tackle, I was like, Keith Traylor? I thought about him. And I think he did it for Chicago, but had one of the coolest interceptions of all time where he ran it back for a touchdown. And there was another option too which was ted washington also was another guy who played nose tackle for them which was very likable and there's a lot of great defensive linemen uh in their history who deserve to be on a list all right top two uh number two is ed mccaffrey ed mccaffrey was fantastic and part of the reason why i have him on this list too

is because he's on my one of my teams of all time, the 94 49ers. Didn't play a lot for that team that won the Super Bowl, but he then went on to win Mike Shanahan, who was the offensive coordinator of that 49ers team in 94. Went on after that season to become the head coach of the Broncos. Ed McCaffrey went with him, and then he ended up being a really good, productive wide receiver for the Broncos for a number of years. And obviously his son, Christian, is one of the most dynamic players in the NFL today. And so Ed McCaffrey is number two, a really, really good wide receiver for the Broncos in the late 90s.

And now your number one options are all over the place you've got a lot of players that you left off of your list so far who are you putting on it i'm gonna put my guy shannon sharp uncle shannon shea shea i'm gonna have him number one on my list the guy was an un you know he was a great hall of fame caliber tight end um obviously got into the hall of fame won three super bowls two with the broncos and one in in baltimore and still in a in a weird way color i still feel like he doesn't really get appreciated enough still for as great as he was um but we've seen so many, you know, great tight ends come into the league, you know, since he, since he retired that I think sometimes he gets forgotten a little bit, which is hard to think because he's, he's all over the media now doing stuff for ESPN

and first take and all that stuff. So we see, we see Shannon Sharp everywhere, but I don't know if younger people really appreciate how great of a tight end he was. And when you factor in the era that he played in, you go and look at his numbers. His numbers are pretty good. They don't really blow you away. But you also have to remember the time in which he played where tight ends didn't really rack up a lot of pass-catching numbers in the nineties. If you plug him into today's NFL, that guy is kicking all sorts of ass in the NFL in today's league. So Shannon Sharp, number one, all time trash talker as well.

Just, just a great player. There's that, there's that famous clip of him on the sideline. The Broncos are in Foxborough blowing out the Patriots, and he's saying, call the National Guard, call the ambulance, call all these people because we are killing the Patriots right now. So Shannon Sharp, all-time great tight end, great player, great personality as well as number one on my list. And Shannon Sharp, if anybody ever gets a chance to do so,

go check out his Hall of Fame speech, because the TV personality that you think that, you know, with Shannon Sharp, who's over the top and funny and everything else. Watch this speech. It's incredible to me. It's the best speech ever given that I've ever seen in the Hall of Fame. And, you know, when he when he they're giving you a hard time in the Hall of Fame. And, you know, when he, when he, they're giving you a hard time in the, in the comments. No, Manny did see John Elway play. This is favorite list, not the best of all time. It's the favorites.

And by the way, and by the way, I was in Canton in 2004 to watch John Elway get inducted into the Hall of Fame. I was there in person with a bunch of Broncos fans. We were there for Carl Eller, my stepdad's former teammate but john elway barry sanders all got in at the same time so i know who john elway is he was amazing i know uh but yeah i mean they're just if we're just going favorites uh your list is very unique and i tried to be a little bit but maybe i went a little more mainstream but you're right about shannon sharp when he was at the end, toward the end of his career, he was being talked about on broadcast as the greatest tight end of a play. And I think it's actually easy to forget that sometimes when someone does become a broadcaster

is that that is their current how people think of them. And they lose a little bit of that. It's like when you watch, I don't know, Terry Bradshaw or Jimmy Johnson year in and year out. They're like, actually, this guy, even though as goofy as his takes may seem right now, was one of the greatest coaches of all time. And maybe that's not always reflective in 30 second hot spewing takes on television. For me, I also went a little bit off the board with my number five pick. And that is Jason Elam, their kicker. And I'll tell you why.

Because I was watching the game when he kicked the 61-yard field goal, and at the time, that was one of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life. I mean, I know it's in Denver, or maybe it was actually on the road. He actually may have been on the road. It was a bomb. And yeah, kickers do that all the time now, but they didn't then like when he was at his peak as their kicker. So I always thought that he was like their secret weapon kind of all, if they were at the 35 yard line, it was kind of like having Jason Tucker

that Jason Elam could come out and was one of the best kickers. So that's my off the wall pick a little bit. Number four for me, I'll just give you a salute. Terrell Davis, man. We can't leave Terrell Davis off of this list. But I also really enjoyed when Gary Kubiak would talk about Terrell Davis and how great he was. When Gary was a member of the Vikings, that was cool. He'd be like, well, you know, we had this guy, Terrell Davis,

kind of remind me of Delvin Cook. It was pretty, it was pretty cool, but Terrell Davis was just so fast, so powerful, so perfect for that fit of that offense that I had to include him on my list. Again, I'm going a little, I'm going down the fairway here from number three, Steve at one, another one of the coolest players ever. One of the hardest hitters would be arrested, put in jail. They'd throw away the key if he was playing today. I understand that. I'm sure he would have had to adjust his game, but he got known so much for the hard hitting that maybe some of the other parts were left out of his game, but he was a dynamic player. He could come to the line of scrimmage. He could make plays on the football, one of the best all around players and just the aesthetic,

just the vibe of Steve Atwater was so intimidating. I think that he had one of those like bigger than just the game, you know, now I did include john elway because manny i enjoyed the heck out of john elway that he had these like almost three careers where it was like the very early john elway where he's this diva that is always going to be known for forcing his way not to be drafted by baltimore to the super bowl losses where it's elway's not clutch he can't win the big game and then to this transition point with Wade Phillips where there's some down years and they're just not that great of a team,

to then Mike Shanahan coming in. But there was nobody, and still probably not, that's ever played other than Brady, maybe Mahomes, where you go, it's not over. No matter what happens, no matter what the score is, no matter how far they have to go, every game is not over. If you're naming the top five most clutch quarterbacks of all time, John Elway's name is brought up right up there with Tom Brady.

It was so much fun to watch him play. And I would just ask people not to just go to his pro football reference page and be like what he only had a 70 something quarterback rating football is different and i actually looked at this from like 94 to 98 he's like top five and quarterback rating as the league was was changing uh and it was becoming easier to throw the football number one is very hard number one is very hard i thought about going with an offensive lineman just because we have spent so much time in our lives talking about offensive linemen on the show. I thought it might be right to pick like Tom Nalen or something for the Broncos. But I went with a little bit off of the beaten trail here. But another guy who I just really loved how he played the game,

one of the most explosive, exciting, fun cornerbacks of all time. And one of the great trades in history was the Denver Broncos acquiring Champ Bailey. I mean, outside of Deion Sanders, how many corners can you name ever that you were like watching for them I can't wait to see this guy play Champ Bailey was uh one of them so he ends up as my favorite Denver Bronco ever in my extremely chalk list that includes a kicker so your reaction

man I love it Champ Bailey was just amazing, man. And he was a guy that, you know, at the University of Georgia was kind of a two-way player, too. He gets forgotten about a little bit, you know, because Charles Woodson was playing at the same time at Michigan, and he was kind of viewed as a two-way player, would play some wide receiver a little bit. But Champ Bailey did a little bit of that at Georgia, too.

And Champ Bailey, the play I always remember is the pick six against Brady in the playoffs where the Patriots are down, down inside the five yard line and Champ Bailey houses at ninety nine yards in that that division. I think it was that divisional game in 2005. And that was an interesting time too because the Patriots were coming off of winning three titles in four years. And so that was kind of a play that signaled the end of that first, sort of that first Patriots dynasty

of all those Super Bowl championships. So yeah, Champ Bailey was great. John Elway, man, like if like you said, you can't go and look at the numbers, the pro football reference numbers, particularly like in the 90s, the early to mid 90s. If you look at how good he was just in the last couple of years of his career, I mean, the guy was retired at 38, 39 years old, and he was at the top of his game. He was one of the best quarterbacks in the league in 1998 and just absolutely obliterated the Atlanta Falcons in that Super Bowl, which ended up being his curtain call.

John Elway was just the physical tools, the ability to move around in the pocket and just had a rocket of an arm and just tough, too. I mean, he withstood a lot of physical punishment in the late 80s and the early 90s when even with those Broncos teams that were going to the Super Bowl in the late 80s that were pretty good. You know, he got beat up a lot in those Super Bowls, man. And he hung in there and ended up still having a great career and just one of the all-time greatest. And I, like I said, very proud that I was able to be there in Canton for his Hall of Fame enshrinement, him and Barry Sanders. It was great.

Except you put a nose tackle on your top five over John Elway. So, all right, before we wrap up, I want to give my prize picks. And if you remember, prizepicks.com is a sponsor of the show. We always take a look at those prize picks where we pick more or less on player yardage totals and other things, sometimes including touchdowns or field goals. And if you go to prizepicks.com slash purple, use the code purple, first deposit match up to $100. So tell me, Manny, if you agree or disagree with my prize picks for this week.

I am going with more than 232.5 yards for Josh Dobbs passing. Would you agree or disagree with more than 232? Oh, no, I'm actually sorry. I went with less, less than 232.5 yards. Would you agree with fewer than 232 yards passing for Josh Dobbs? Yeah, I would agree. I think it's going to be less than that, and I don't think it means that he's not going to be productive

because obviously he can be very productive with his legs as well. So, yeah, I think it'll be less than that. More, I went with Russell Wilson more than 206.5 yards passing. I know that I ran through Russell Wilson and how rare it's been to go over 200 yards. I think Denver will have to play from behind, though, and they'll have to play a little catch up and they will struggle to run the football and will have to pass so wilson goes over 206.5 i will say yep i agree with that he'll go over but not that much over probably around like 220 all right so we'll agree on both of those more than 206.5. And with TJ Hawkinson, I went with more than 56.5. Now I am being asked to add a kicker. So I'm going to add a kicker in a second. More or less than 56.5 for TJ Hawkinson. I think he just keeps rolling here, especially if Jefferson is not back. Yeah, I think Josh Dobbs has really kind of found him as a really reliable, you know, sort of safety blanket as he did last week against New Orleans.

I think 56.5. Yeah, I think I think Hawkinson will go more than that. OK, upon request, I will add Greg Joseph more or less points than 6.5 for Greg Joseph. that's very hard that means probably I mean that means either a field goal and four extra points or the two field goals and an extra point I don't know more more or less 6.5 points for the kicker it's a really good line i would say i'll say more i'll say more because they'll probably kick a couple of field goals and then you know the vikings will find themselves in the end zone i think at some point in the game so i'll say more i will also go more

and here's the crazy thing about prize picks the entry for this, the entry fee, $20 to win 200. If I get all of them and you know, we've done. Okay. We've had fun with that throughout the year. Prize picks.com slash purple, Manny. Great stuff is always tremendous.

Denver Broncos list and discussion and get well soon to Lamar Jackson and Joe Burrow, because the football carnage of quarterbacks this year has been freaking outrageous. And I hope it does not continue. So thanks to you. Thanks to everybody who watched. Remember,

because I completely blew it with the audio from the round table, I will be live on YouTube on Friday night, previewing the Vikings Broncos and taking all of your questions. We'll do it. Fans only style. We haven't done that in a little while, so I will do entirely just chatting with everybody. Then make sure you join and we will catch you next time.