Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Escaping The Middle: A Vikings roundtable

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

Matthew Coller, Paul Hodowanic and Will Ragatz go in depth on the ways in which the Minnesota Vikings can break the chains of getting caught in the middle of the NFL for any longer. How can Kevin O'Co...nnell take a shot this year at changing their fate? What one move should they make for the long term to aim for true Super Bowl contention? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar here, and this is something new that we're going to do on a regular basis. We're going to call it the Raggetts Roundtable. Will Raggetts from Sports Illustrated, Paul Hodowanek from WCCO Radio is here, and we've got a topic that we're going to discuss. Will is going to lead the discussion, but I also may or may not have demanded that we do this subject that I thought of. So I was reading an article by my friend Rivers McCown, who covers the Houston Texans, and he wrote about the athletic podcast that went through the commandments of rebuilding. Since we don't have rebuilding here, I want to go through the commandments of escaping mediocrity in the short and long term. So, Will, why don't you just start out the discussion with your first idea of how the Minnesota Vikings can escape the trench of mediocrity that they have stuck themselves in
Starting point is 00:01:18 over the past several years, and then we'll go in the short term, and then we'll talk about the long term as well. So, the floor is yours, Mr. Raggetts. Thank you. And before I give my first commandment, I will say that it's kind of funny you mention the commandments of rebuilding because maybe the commandment for the Vikings escaping mediocrity should be that they should just rebuild and go to the bottom before they can go to the top. But we'll start with this year and what the Vikings can do to not be an 8-9 team again. And my commandment is to lean all the way in on Kevin O'Connell.
Starting point is 00:01:52 And there are a few things that that could mean. A big piece of it is going to be doing everything and giving Kevin O'Connell everything he can to unlock Kirk Cousins in any way that he possibly can. Because we've talked about Kirk Cousins a lot, and we know what he is at this point in his career, but he finally has an offensive-minded head coach in Minnesota, somebody that he has a relationship with. And so what that will look like exactly, I don't know. But it has to be giving Kevin O'Connell all of the freedom and power to be creative and kind of modernize the offense with different things like play action, going all in on what Kirk does well, unpredictability, making things look the same. The illusion of complexity is what
Starting point is 00:02:36 the Rams called it. And just to me, that's their best chance of escaping mediocrity this year is Kevin O'Connell being this wonder kind, amazing offensive mind head coach. That's going to come in and take her cousins game to a slightly different level and just overhaul the offense in ways that are going to make it tougher to defend and are going to lean into the things that Kirk and the rest of the personnel do well. So let me add onto that because I think this is a great place to begin the discussion for escaping mediocrity. It's being bold in some ways.
Starting point is 00:03:11 And I felt like in order to get the most out of Kevin O'Connell, they needed to give him a little better in terms of offensive line and maybe another wide receiver in the offseason. But since they didn't do that, and we're talking about the short term, then we have to talk about what they can do to allow him to be bold with kirk cousins which means do not be afraid to fail kevin o'connell and minnesota vikings because if you start to go down the mike zimmer route you won't completely fail i think that's very clear that you won't
Starting point is 00:03:43 completely fail and end up five and 12, but you'll end up eight, eight and one or whatever, you know, you'll end up 500 because every time they sort of leaned a little too much, then the reins got pulled back. And every time an offensive coordinator started to get a little bit too far, passing the ball a little too much, it was not, not no no no you got to go back to the run first you got to make sure that we're not turning the ball over and then mike zimmer played uh mind games with kirk cousins with the well actually no i actually want you to throw it more down the field to just the jefferson hole which is it mike um and i think that probably drove kirk cousins crazy but the thing about cousins is it's essentially a one-year
Starting point is 00:04:25 contract where he is right now. Yeah, he's got the no trade clause. We don't know the details exactly of that no trade clause, but the way that I see it is if you fail this year, it's actually okay because then you have an answer. How far can you take it with Kirk, even with a new offensive mind that doesn't play mind games with him you get your answer so do not be afraid to fail Kevin O'Connell don't play to be 500 go all in on your offense like you're saying but do it in a bold way that either has a boom or bust opportunity I think for the short term it can actually help the long term to go boom or bust what is your commandment, Paul, of escaping mediocrity? Yes. Hello. I am welcoming myself to the podcast.
Starting point is 00:05:10 Yeah. Paul's here. Hi, Paul. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. You know, I think it's fitting that we're all focusing mine. I'm focusing on offense here. And I think it's fitting because what we just know about the NFL right now is that defense isn't going to do a lot for you. As you guys were both talking about offense, I was trying to come up with a really compelling defensive argument that rivaled how to get them out of mediocrity. But truly, especially with the personnel they have on defense, maybe slightly improved, but nothing that we're expecting to be more than average to most optimistically, like slightly above average is I think where
Starting point is 00:05:46 you're penciling in the defense. And that is not a unit that's going to escape you from mediocrity. And so for me, it's let Kirk Cousins cook. So it's a very similar iteration to what you guys are doing, but I just looked up like the top offensive run pass rates in the league last year. The Tampa Bay Bucs threw 66% of the time. Why can't the Vikings just let Kirk Cousins throw 66% of the time? Like, let's throw back to some John DiFilippo era football, spread Kirk Cousins out, just let him throw all over the place. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.
Starting point is 00:06:25 But Tampa Bay is one of the top teams that threw the ball. Las Vegas was one of the top teams that threw the ball. The Chargers, the Chiefs, truly let Kirk Cousins have the keys to this offense. And again, the answer that you get is either going to be really good and it escapes you from mediocrity, or it's probably really bad. And thus you fall below mediocrity and you figure it out. So I think similarly to how you're talking about be bold, it's let Kirk cook. I don't want to hear, well, we're going to set up the passing game with letting Dalvin cook run. Like we want to set these things up. I don't really need to see Dalvin cook. If we're being completely honest with you, that gets to one of my future commandments. Truly the only thing that I see them escaping a nine and eight,
Starting point is 00:07:12 10 and seven, even 11 and six, you want to call that right around average is if they fully embrace Kirk cousins for better and for worse, I'm not convinced that goes well, but I'm convinced that's the only route that leads them to something other than that middle ground. Because if they run Dalvin Cook a little bit, do a Kirk, you know, just kind of the one-two combo, I just, I don't see much more in their
Starting point is 00:07:37 future than what the Cleveland Browns were two years ago. And that's the highest point that you have there that was basically the kirk cousins offense like done to a t and that still wasn't good enough for them to get out of the second round of the playoffs i don't and like to not be better than 10 and 6 like the truly revolutionary offenses are usually really good quarterback teams but i think you just got to go all in and say we committed to kirk cousins we think he's our revolutionary quarterback and we're going to act like it. And if it goes great, it goes great. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But I think you find your answer either way. So I think that's their best case to escape mediocrity. And that was my only way. I really, I really tried to find a defensive angle after you guys went
Starting point is 00:08:21 offensive, but I'm just not sure there's one that really sticks out that could make that massive of a difference well this is good because we're all on the same page kind of we just we said essentially the same thing with different focuses uh kevin o'connell and being bold and going in all in on kirk like the the fundamental thing that's the same is just changing the approach a little bit because we've seen that if they try to do this run heavy ball control win with defense make every game close you just can't win that many close games like you're not gonna maybe one year you would get lucky and win two-thirds or three quarters of your close games but that's not something you can count on so we know that they need to do something different and a great way to do that would just be to throw the ball more and to get creative and try bold things like letting Justin Jefferson
Starting point is 00:09:09 throw the ball on a reverse more or just putting the ball in the hands of your best players and being unpredictable. Just various things like that that are going to be different and taking chances and not running the ball on second and long is a big one there. This doesn't mean that we're saying the Vikings need to be a one-dimensional team and nobody's going to throw 80% of the time in the NFL because that just wouldn't work.
Starting point is 00:09:32 You would get sacked. I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it. Paul wants it. You could try it. You could try it. I think you'd probably get sacked a lot and maybe your receivers would get hurt from running 47 million routes a game.
Starting point is 00:09:47 But like, I think they still need to use Dalvin Cook to some extent because he is a very good player. And there is something beautiful about a well-blocked, well-executed run. But with that said, you just you need to throw the ball more. You need to put it in Kirk's hands deep down the field. Take shots like that was something that watching the Vikings last year, you need to throw the ball more. You need to put it in Kirk's hands deep down the field, take shots. Like that was something that watching the Vikings last year, I just didn't feel like there was enough of when you have Justin Jefferson and you have Adam Thielen and you have KJ Osborne and all
Starting point is 00:10:14 the, like use a mere Smith Mar set. Who's extremely fast. Take shots down the field. When it, when the opportunities present themselves and maybe even when they don't and just see what happens and see if you can score 30 35 points a game and do well enough on defense that you're going to maybe stumble into a 12 13 win season if it all goes brilliantly and everyone stays healthy
Starting point is 00:10:38 you know there's a well sorry go ahead paul, I was also just going to say, I think like a reason we're very homogenous in our, in what we're saying is kind of needed is because they didn't take those swings to avoid mediocrity in the off season. You know, they didn't go and draft a wide receiver in the first round. That's a big difference maker play. They didn't go meaningfully address like their biggest hole on the offensive line which is center like they still have a big weak link in center we know that's a weak link system like on defense they didn't they addressed corner in the draft but they didn't go out and do
Starting point is 00:11:15 anything crazy in free agency they signed a really like injury like uh injury prone defensive lineman to pair with their already uh injury prone defensive linemen to pair with their already injury prone defensive linemen. So I think part of the reason we've gotten to this point is a lot of the options that we would traditionally point to towards this is how you avoid mediocrity. They've passed on those so far. They've decided we're not going to do those things. And so if you're not going to do those things, it now comes to a point where you really only have a few options if you're really trying to optimize the roster. And I think that's when it comes back to unleashing offenses. They've kind of passed and balked at some of the other ways that you would envision them really beefing up a run this year. And so this is what you're
Starting point is 00:12:01 left with. And, you know, we're so much on the same page of the aggressive offensive approach that we can talk a little bit more about the general manager type of angle about how to escape mediocrity in the long run, because still Vegas thinks they're an eight and a half win team for this year. It's like, it couldn't be more perfect than 8.5 translates to eight, eight and one. And it's like, there you have it. But I was thinking about this and tell me if you guys agree with this, that if there is any year to be bold in some way, to use Kenne Wong Wu on, you know, whatever type of screens or reverses or something, which is another one of mine. If you want to escape mediocrity, it all ties back into like, can you get the most out of your playmakers,
Starting point is 00:12:45 which I think should probably include him and creativity with Delvin Cook. I love the wide zone, but can you do a little bit more with Delvin Cook like Kevin Stefanski did in 2019 and beef that up. But after this though, after this year, it changes, right? Because if you don't win in your first year as a head coach, immediately there's pressure that you might get fired. That's the NFL, the average head coach. Didn't you look this up, Paul lasts like three years in the NFL. I mean, so that tells you that, you know, we always think like, Oh, you know, this coach has got plenty of time, whatever else. Are you telling me if say Robert Sala with the New York jets, if they're terrible this year and win three games that he won't be on the hot seat or fired, like that's how it ends up working is that if you don't succeed right away. Uh, so being,
Starting point is 00:13:34 being bold, if you're, if, if you're not like, you're not going to get another chance to do it really, because then the expectations change and then you get immediately into self-preservation mode. And we saw what self-preservation mode can do to a coaching staff and to general managers. And then when you start playing for your job, everything ends up being different. I think with the way that any of us would handle it with our jobs on the line. So I think that that's kind of a key point. And on the defensive side, I guess I would say this, that, you know, escaping mediocrity in the short term, that's hard to pin anything on defense because it's really hard to predict, but I would say, find out what you have. If you want to act accordingly for this year to long-term escape mediocrity, which can act as our little transition
Starting point is 00:14:22 point, unless you have something else will. But I think finding out what you have is important. It's nice that Patrick Peterson is helping the other corners. I want to see Andrew Booth play this year. It doesn't have to be all the time because, you know, rookies get shredded, but you don't want to see Andrew Booth spend the entire year on the bench because you had to play Patrick Peterson to win eight games. Like you, you want to see these guys that you don't know what they are in the future. Some of the, you know, the Patrick Jones's of the world. Are you going to resign Armond Watts? Do you have any linebackers who can play like Louis scene, use him in every way possible, get him as much experience as you can.
Starting point is 00:15:00 I think that those things and combine them. Cause we don't know where he fits in. I think those things are important for escaping long-term mediocrity. And I'll put that down as one of my commandments is make sure you find out what you have and don't lock yourself into, no, we're playing Patrick Peterson every snap because he's Patrick Peterson and we're trying to just get the most out of our defensive secondary and not giving anyone else experience folks want to remind you to go to soda stick.com that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k.com use the promo code purple insider for 15 off your purchase it is summertime it's baseball season they have all sorts of great minnesota baseball gear and if you are prepping for training camp get your purple people eaters shirt your can't
Starting point is 00:15:51 stop the thelan hat and all sorts of other great football designs go there soda stick.com s-o-t-a s-t-i-c-k.com promo code purple insider for 15% off. Yeah. And that was something that we saw over the past few years was just this goal of trying to be competitive and trying to just taking all these steps in this general approach that led you to seven and nine and to eight and nine. And I agree with you. I think they need to find out what they have. It's interesting that you brought up like the shelf life for coaches and I think this applies for GMs too probably not in Minnesota
Starting point is 00:16:30 because Rick Spielman was here for like a super long time I think Quasey will probably be here for he'll get a longer leash than Kevin O'Connell I would imagine but it's they're already with their offseason moves kind of like angling in a similar way that the previous regime did just in the way that they ran it back. They extended Kirk. They did all these things like what we were talking about in our first segments, talking about the offense,
Starting point is 00:16:57 like nothing against the value of trading down or against Louis scene or Andrew booth, but Hey, Jamison Williams would have been a good way to go bold and taking another receiver like that or or hell taking a a shot on a quarterback like and that's what you've been talking about for a few years now uh matt like they they've had opportunities to go bold they haven't really done it so now with the pieces that you have you owe it to yourself to at least be bold to some extent and use the offense in different ways and find out what you have on defense. So I don't have a new
Starting point is 00:17:31 commandment to bring here. I'm just agreeing with what you guys have said. Well, let's transition then, Paul, over to the part about the general manager and escaping long-term. So what do we want to qualify as long-term? Like they have to be, okay, so Kweisi got a four-year contract. So they have to escape mediocrity within the first three years then, right? Because that's when you'd be re-upping or you'd just be firing him essentially, right? And it is really interesting that they did not go all in with a normal six-year contract with Kwesi. So I feel like there is more pressure to at least get to the point where you'd look for an extension on that deal and be able to say to the Wilfs and to the fans, hey guys, we're going in the right direction. We're absolutely
Starting point is 00:18:17 going to get there and here's how by that point. So when you think about Paul escaping mediocrity from where they are now, like what would be your first thing that you would say you absolutely have to do X if you're going to do that? I one of the things I wrote down was you cannot be sentimental in the moves that you make. I think we saw that in this previous regime with Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer. They drafted Anthony Barr, and they love Anthony Barr, so we're going to give Anthony Barr this big contract extension. We love Dalvin Cook. We drafted Dalvin Cook. Now we're going to give him this big extension. And I think we saw them, and so this new regime can't be sentimental with this old
Starting point is 00:19:06 guard that the Vikings have on this roster uh it's kind of a cheap win with a new fan base and especially if you struggle in year one to keep a Harrison Smith to keep an Eric Kendricks because they're fan favorites they've been here a long time people know what they're going to get and they're kind of living off their performances of past years. So they maybe don't get critiqued as much as the new guys. But if I'm telling you one thing that's escaping mediocrity, which is essentially escaping the previous regime, like that's kind of another way to look at this because the last regime was the epitome of mediocre towards the end. It's, you can't be sentimental. Eric Hendricks is 30. He had a horrible season last year. If he does that again, this can't be a, well, Eric has done so much for
Starting point is 00:19:52 this team. We need, we want to keep him in the defense. We're going to keep moving forward. That can't be the, how they look at Harrison Smith. It can't be look how, how they look at Adam Thielen. They, they can't hold on to this old group and expect them to help usher in these young guys. They need to cut bait. And I think being a new, new regime, they're in a good position to do that already because they don't have the ties that the previous regime had to guys. They can move off people pretty quickly and say, you know, we didn't draft them. We didn't extend them. We want to find our own guys. And I think they really need to embrace that. There's a reason this past regime got fired. They weren't doing good enough. The roster wasn't doing
Starting point is 00:20:33 a go doing good enough. Don't be afraid to move off some of the pieces that are on this roster, some of the aging pieces. And despite being some fan favorites, don't be like, don't be afraid to move off those guys. Cause in the longterm, if they're going to be good in three years, like Eric Hendricks probably isn't on the team and Harrison Smith probably isn't on the team. Maybe Adam Thielen's on the team. I'm not sure, but if we're forecasting out three or four years down the line, I'd be surprised to see any of them. And so don't hold on for too long. It's kind of you, you gotta, you gotta see what the young guys have, but just don't hand out stupid contracts to some of the older guys too, as well. So that's kind of one of the biggest ones. I'm not
Starting point is 00:21:15 sure if the biggest one, but it was on the tip of my tongue. So I think that's essential for them heading into this next phase. Yeah. And I, my like thing that I wrote for looking forward the next few years is, uh, this might come across as harsh, but it's a find a new quarterback. Uh, because to me, like you can, you can, I understand the approach of seeing what you have in Kirk Cousins under this new coaching staff this year and kind of running it back. Cause it is a talented roster and you can talk yourself into all of the different parts of the roster if they if these people stay healthy and if you get some breakout performances here like this could be a good team this year with good coaching I don't I don't like completely disagree with that idea
Starting point is 00:21:57 but I just don't think that like deep down Kirk Cousins is going to win a Super Bowl unless things go perfectly. And I know that there's the Matthew Stafford comparison, but the Vikings aren't finding an Aaron Donald. The Vikings aren't like finding the roster that the Rams had around him. And then there's just differences between Stafford and Cousins in terms of certain like aggressiveness in big moments and things like that. So for me, it was find a new qb and this ties back to what i said at the very beginning of this show is to get out of the middle there's there's two directions you can go and ideally you just go up and you go from the middle to go up but it doesn't always work like that you might have to go down first get out of the middle
Starting point is 00:22:41 that way find your new quarterback that way and then you go up there look look at what the Bengals did like look at how the the Chiefs elevated they got a little lucky because Mahomes wasn't like a top three pick but to me there's no better way and and no more surefire not surefire but the way to get out of the middle is to find a quarterback who can take you out of it and and you can live at the top tier of the NFL because this quarterback is so talented that nothing else really matters. Obviously, hitting on other draft picks and filling out the roster matters to some extent. But when you have that quarterback as that Trump card, that main piece that's going to make you competitive every year, like Mahomes and Josh Allen, and we're assuming Burrow is going to do in Cincinnati.
Starting point is 00:23:29 That's what it comes down to. So maybe they got to be bad for the first time in a long time. I mean, they were pretty bad the past couple years, but like actually bad, like four or five wins bad, and then you can rise all the way to the top. And it's all hypothetical and theoretical, and there's no guarantee it works out that way, but at least it would be trying something other than the same thing. Right. My point is going to be right in that same realm with don't talk yourself into, we were this close. Do not talk yourself into, oh, it was just a couple of field goals
Starting point is 00:24:03 or a fumble or whatever. Oh, we just had an injury. Every single team has those things every single year, but some teams win 13 games or 12 games and are legitimate Super Bowl contenders. The thing that this off season I ran across with just fiddling around with numbers that really changed the way I think about the Super Bowl and how to get there is that the just get in and see what happens thing is a big time myth. It's not real. Historically, you have to win at least 11 games to be a Super Bowl contender. Usually the answer is 12 games or more to have a chance to win the Super Bowl. And so everything you do should be angled at winning
Starting point is 00:24:43 12 games, not at getting into the playoffs and then seeing what happens and where that ties back into the quarterback is like you said, well, I mean, if we, if you view it for a commandment as don't look at eight games, winning, winning eight games any differently than winning four games. That's how I would say it only aim for winning 12 when you approach the quarterback situation, because nothing else really applies to this. Like you're just trying to get good players all the time for the rest of your roster. But at the quarterback position, if you win eight games this year and none of the
Starting point is 00:25:16 bold things that we suggested, let's say they took all of our advice. They threw 80% of the time and Kirk threw 47 interceptions. And you're like, like you know maybe that was a horrible idea Paul but you won four games because they took Paul's advice and it was complete lunacy but that's actually good for you so so I think that like not not viewing eight wins as any different than four wins sort of changes the way you even just view your mindset about approaching that position and I would say that there's only two ways to win a Super Bowl at the quarterback position. And those two ways are, A, you draft a quarterback and he is good and you build a great roster around him. Or B, you have a good enough roster that is ready and available for somebody else to drop into. Let's say, because at one time we didn't know that Deshaun Watson was Deshaun Watson.
Starting point is 00:26:09 Like, we would have been talking about Vikings Deshaun Watson and dropping him into a roster with Justin Jefferson. It still probably wouldn't have been enough even with Deshaun Watson. But if you build the roster with this long-term focus all the time, and that goes to like getting more draft picks as Casey tried to do, it goes to developing players. It goes to having, having a very clear vision of what year it is that you're going to be the team that could bring Tom Brady here to win the Superbowl or you're available. Cause you just never really
Starting point is 00:26:42 know. And I actually think like it didn't work for Indianapolis. They were maybe one drive away from it working and winning a playoff game in Buffalo. But Indianapolis has been this team that's just been available and they end up with Matt Ryan. We'll see how that works out. The Phillip Rivers thing, they won 11 games with Phillip Rivers. They got themselves on the cusp of that threshold
Starting point is 00:27:04 by being there for Philip Rivers. We don't know who that quarterback is going to be. And if we think of this roster as being mature and ready to win by what 2024 is that, or is that when the rebuild begins? Like that's the thing that you need to know. I don't actually know with this roster, but you need to know when it's going to peak and when you can be the team that's either going into the second year with a rookie quarterback contract or because imagine you're Justin Fields and you're like, you really timed this one out. Great guys. Didn't you like Justin Fields in Denver would be super happy. Justin Fields in Carolina would probably be pretty
Starting point is 00:27:42 happy. Like their rosters maturing from a lot of high draft picks, but instead it's Chicago and they're like tanking around a rookie quarterback contract. You cannot have that happen. I've, I, I think that what we see is that supporting casts means so much to the success of young quarterbacks. And like even Mac Jones last year, like that's a team that was ready to bring in a quarterback because they had spent a lot of money and had a mature roster. Like you've got to be sure of that timing.
Starting point is 00:28:10 I think that that is absolutely a commandment of escaping the middle. Yeah, my second one, which is kind of something you already briefly mentioned and kind of ties into this, but it's, you have to avoid the job saver moves, the moves that are completely designed to trading for Corey Vedvik, trading for Chris Herndon. What are these?
Starting point is 00:28:37 Or if we're speaking in quarterback terms, what we just watched the Panthers do like two hours ago, they just traded for Baker Mayfield but a couple months ago they drafted a third round quarterback and they traded a future third rounder to go get that quarterback oh and then the season before they signed Sam Darnold all those moves was for Matt Rule to try to save his butt and to keep coaching into another season. And I think when coaches get into the mode of, well, this is going to save my job. I'm not sure those moves actually do. I think they're kind of counterintuitive. It's, oh, it's going to save me. But I think at
Starting point is 00:29:16 this point, there's enough of smart fans. There's enough smart owners to realize the job saving moves are usually guys other teams don't want, and they usually don't want them for certain reasons. And so I'm just like thinking through the NFL and all the very mediocre teams like Washington. They just went and got Carson Wentz. Why? To be mediocre again? To maybe sneak into the playoffs again?
Starting point is 00:29:40 That's a job-saving type move because they didn't feel good about Taylor Heineke. They didn't want to take a swing in the draft. And so they said, what's our best average quarterback that can maybe keep our job from becoming way too hot? And so I think for the Vikings, there's going to be a sense long term, especially if this season doesn't work, that they're already going to be put in that job preservation mode. And I would tell them, I think the better chance of keeping your job is if you don't go into job preservation mode.
Starting point is 00:30:12 I think it's you taking massive swings and hoping you hit on them because I'm not sure if you fail miserably or if you just go 7 and 10. Like, is it going to change that much, especially for a team that specifically hired you to get over that hump? Like they hired you to avoid seven and 10 again, they hired you to go 12 and five, 13 and four, they didn't hire you to go nine and eight. And so it's kind of the embrace four wins is the same as eight wins. I think you just have to avoid these job-saving moves that the previous regime has done. Even something that you've kind of already done in pushing money down the road to try to be better
Starting point is 00:30:56 this year, this whole notion of a competitive rebuild is basically a job-saving move and you're doing it from day one. It's not a good way to forecast yourself into the future so my another piece of advice just you gotta you gotta swing big or at least not try to just save your butt with stopgap band-aid hires and signings you just gotta go all in but now the now the panthers can tell their fan base that they have the first and third overall picks in the 2018 draft. Well, what I was going to say, I was just going to say that I think that when we talk about Carolina and Washington, I think that those examples are different because Carolina had a chance to draft Justin Fields and then build their roster and their roster was like
Starting point is 00:31:44 on the way to being pretty good, which I think it actually is now. And I wouldn't be shocked if they were like a borderline playoff team with Baker Mayfield. I think that with Washington, they paid a little too much for Carson Wentz. And I agree with you on that, but they also are not locked into Carson Wentz in any way. So if it was like run back Taylor Heineke or trade for Carson Wentz, but you get freedom in the future to do what you want with that position, they're also in a little bit of a tough spot because they tried to trade for Russell Wilson, but it's Washington and Russell Wilson was like, no dang way am I playing for that organization.
Starting point is 00:32:21 So they're up against it a little, but trying to fill that spot with a Teddy, hoping that your evaluation from years ago with Sam Darnold was right. Yeah. That's not where you want to be. You don't want to be at these desperate reaches to be relevant. You want to be at like, let's fill that with someone who can get to the playoffs, but also maintain flexibility. If they had signed Wentz to an extension, then I would have said, okay, you're a disaster although you know I don't even really truly hate the Baker thing I think the Baker thing's a great decision for them now what were you going to run it back with Sam Darnold like that's not bad but it's really their decision to trade a lot for Darnold a failed quarterback like
Starting point is 00:32:59 that's not recruiting the best quarterback who could come in and be your Philip Rivers or Matt Ryan that's like taking this huge swing and over believing in yourself, which actually might be another commandment. But anyway, go ahead. Well, I have one more and my last one was about the QB. So we'll set the QB aside as important as it is for this one.
Starting point is 00:33:20 And it is prioritize the right positions just as a roster building strategy. Like, for example, don't use the number two overall pick on a running back, even if Saquon Barkley is absolutely unbelievably good at football and dominated the Big Ten and is an incredible athlete. That did nothing to get the Giants out of mediocrity. Well, actually, I guess that could be an argument for, like, do that so you're terrible, and then you can draft the quarterback, but don't draft a running back that high. Don't like Paul said earlier, don't extend Dalvin cook. I, they really didn't
Starting point is 00:33:53 need to do that. Don't draft a tight end in like the top 10, like the lions did with TJ Hawkinson, just various things like that. You need to prioritize the offensive line the trenches on both sides and the vikings to their credit are in a good position on the offensive line at least at the tackle position uh they have two really good young tackles who are under contract for a long time figure out the interior although that's not a premium position it's still the trenches which i put a lot of value on and i think any vikings fan knows like you got to have at least decent play on the interior of the offensive line so your quarterback isn't getting bull rushed up the middle every play uh but defensive ends outside linebackers uh defensive
Starting point is 00:34:36 like pass rush and then wide receiver wide receiver wide receiver wide receiver i think the vikings could go even more like in depth and put more resources into that position, especially with Adam Thielen getting up there in age. K.J. Osborne and some of the other guys they've drafted are are OK. But I think like you touched on the timeline thing, Matt, like they need to find a running mate, a long term running mate for Justin Jefferson. They obviously need to find a quarterback who fits the timeline with him, which is a whole nother conversation. Like if they draft a rookie quarterback, then you're maybe wasting some of Jefferson's prime. If that person isn't ready to play right away,
Starting point is 00:35:13 but find another long-term another one or two or three, like really good young wide receivers that you can pair with Jefferson to maximize your offense. Because we know that having really good wide receivers is about the like second most important thing you can do on offense to have an efficient and explosive offense so that would be a long-term roster building commandment of mine that I think Kwesi understands even though he drafted a safety in the first round this year is to prioritize the right positions yeah I think that's a good one. And we talked a lot
Starting point is 00:35:46 about like that surplus value in the draft of like, if this guy hits, how much better is it then? Or how much is he worth in comparison to what the top players at his position are? So I want to do this before we wrap up here. How about we make one specific move? Like what one specific move would you make? Obviously you can't do it right now because this is the off season, but after this year, let's just say in the case that they are still entrenched in mediocrity. And I know we're all going to say trade Kirk cousins. So let's say Kirk cousins is traded.
Starting point is 00:36:20 And so what, what would we do after that? If Kirk cousins was traded and they're in mediocrity to get them out of mediocrity, Paul, you, uh, you go first. Hmm. I, I had one more, so I'll kind of tie it. Go ahead. Yes. But it's do whatever you need to do to sign Justin Jefferson to a contract extension. Yes. Literally anything. Like my command was going to be do whatever Justin Jefferson wants.
Starting point is 00:36:51 Anything that he wants. Name the stadium after him. Yeah. Does he want a new coach? Bye-bye, Kevin O'Connell. Does he want a new quarterback? Bye, Kirk Cousins. Does he want a whole new stadium?
Starting point is 00:37:02 Bye, U.S. Bank. We're building a new one. It wasn't good enough for Justin Jefferson. Like he doesn't want it. So we're not going to have it. Anything that Justin Jefferson wants, you need to give him because you need to sign him. He is the single most important person in the Vikings organization right now for their long-term future. He helps claw them out of mediocrity. So obviously that do whatever he wants is basically do whatever you need to do to get him signed and to keep him happy and to keep him on this roster, because he's going to help you. If you think you can escape mediocrity now, Justin Jefferson's a key. If you think you
Starting point is 00:37:36 can do it in two years, Justin Jefferson's a key. If you think you can do it in eight years, Justin Jefferson is a key part of that. And so more than any other position, more than any other person in the organization, like I value Justin Jefferson over the GM, over the head coach. Like he needs to be the focal point of whatever next step this team takes, whatever that looks. And so the first thing this off season is you say, hey, I, we don't even need you to have a cheaper last year. If we're going to, if we're going to do this, let's just sign you now. Let's bulk up the rest of your deal.
Starting point is 00:38:08 Let's give you an ownership stake. I don't care. Whatever Justin Jefferson wants, he gets. I think that's the biggest offseason thing that they'd have to do. Okay, here's going to be my specific move. So let's say the Vikings are mediocre again. That's the hypothetical here. They're 7, 9, 10 wins, whatever it is. They missed the playoffs. They have a middle round, first round pick. say the Vikings are mediocre again that's the hypothetical here they're seven to nine ten wins
Starting point is 00:38:25 whatever it is they missed the playoffs they have a middle round first round pick my move is you trade Kirk Cousins and then after that you assuming they're not like they don't bottom out and they're in this they're in this middle you go all in and you trade whatever to move up to the top of the draft and this was inspired kind of by the timberwolves recently like giving up five first round picks essentially a bunch of players for rudy gobert to go all in and try to take a swing at winning a title if i'm the vikings i trade whatever let's say it's the 15th pick i offer the 15th pick my first rounder the next year in 2024, a second, maybe multiple seconds, and like Andrew Booth Jr. to the team with the number one or two pick,
Starting point is 00:39:13 and I take Bryce Young or C.J. Stroud, assuming that those are the quarterbacks who play well in college football this year. Those are the consensus top two for the 2023 draft so i that's my move is no matter like what the even if the value doesn't say like that this is a smart trade and you're like oh we're giving up so much of the future take a chance and put together a package that that team might actually accept and move up to the top of the draft, take that quarterback, and boom, go from there, win a Super Bowl. See, I was going to go in a totally different direction with the draft to quarterback thing, which was don't fall in love
Starting point is 00:39:56 with a specific quarterback because we're really bad at evaluating them. You know who's bad at evaluating them? Me, you, every person in the NFL, and history just continues to prove this. The fact that the number one and number three overall picks are on the same team right now. Four years later. Four years later and are not with their own teams really shows you. I mean, you got Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen, two of the best quarterbacks in the entire NFL, were not the first picks. Mahomes was not the first pick.
Starting point is 00:40:27 Like, pick whatever guy is there and don't get too caught up on, well, we need to have a consensus with our entire organization. Take that guy. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay because you can have it not work out, have it fail and get another bite at that apple. Uh, even as tough as it is now, you could end up being the jets. I know everyone brings that up, but like, what do you want me to do about that? There are other teams that have done the same thing and ended up with a much better quarterback situation after they had one guy fail. Um, I don't think you can keep going down the same road with the same quarterback. The other part of it too, is that Kirk cousins by after year, is just an old quarterback in the NFL.
Starting point is 00:41:10 He's one of the oldest quarterbacks in the NFL right now. And the only guys who have thrown more than, I think I looked this up, thrown more than 30 touchdowns after age 34 are all dudes who are going to end up in Canton or were like multiple- pro bowlers like Carson Palmer. It's usually not a league that even with better science is very friendly to quarterbacks who get older, unless you're one of the goats. So you have to be like Ryan Fitzpatrick, right? Oh yes. Yeah. Right. If you're Ryan Fitzpatrick and you're a journeyman, it's always friendly to journeyman. So my thing is don't spend all those things which is really interesting that's
Starting point is 00:41:47 two different ideas but don't spend all of your uh draft capital make sure you still have it but you come away with a quarterback in the middle of the first round because his odds are probably similar maybe once upon a time they weren't but i think that college football save for this year is producing more potential quarterbacks out there. I would also say this, that have a really good idea by the end of this year, if Kevin O'Connell's culture stuff is, can work, like if it's working and if it matters, because if it doesn't and people aren't responding to him, like know that because after 2019, they still should have fired Mike Zimmer. They just didn't. And they just said like, no, I guess they want to play
Starting point is 00:42:32 off games. So I guess we should just keep doing this. Like, don't do the same. Don't make that same mistake again. If it doesn't work, then move on from it. If it does work, then tell the guy he's got two more years on his contract and stay with him. Because I think that, you know, trying to work your way through bumps in the road with good coaches, good coaches are very hard to find. So anyway, I hope that people got some good stuff out of this as we sit here in the middle of July. Did everyone have fun? Oh, I had a good time. And I want to make one like quick clarification is i compared it to the timberwolves rudy gobert thing and it's different because that's like an established
Starting point is 00:43:10 three-time defensive player of the year so i guess the better comparison there would be like if an aaron rogers or i don't know who some like established good quarterback a like normal not no off the field stuff to Sean Watson if that person's available then maybe you trade the farm I would still do it I think though to move up to the top if you think and I know you're and your point about not being able to evaluate quarterbacks is very true but if you think that there might be like a Joe Burrow at the top of that draft I would still do it yeah I don't think that your idea is absurd at all. I mean, didn't Philadelphia and Los Angeles both trade up for Jared Goff and Carson Wentz and both of those teams ended up going to super bowls and one of them won. So, you know, I mean, I think there's,
Starting point is 00:43:55 it's just two different thought processes that probably give you close to equal chance. I just think that if you're aiming for that, like 2024, then you want to make sure you have those other picks. But if that's your one guy, or if you feel like there's a huge gap between this guy and that guy, then maybe go for it. So this was, this was fun guys. This was a good time.
Starting point is 00:44:15 I look forward to the Vikings throwing 80% of the time. Someday Paul, someday you will get your dream. Okay. Well, ragged round table is going to become a thing because this was fun this was really good so thank you Will thank you Paul and also thank you Paul battling through adversity uh I know that you lost your dog the other day and I just
Starting point is 00:44:37 wanted to say I know how painful that is and we love and appreciate you it's a very hard thing to go through um but I'm glad that you could take the time, talk a little football, get your mind off it and just know that every minute that you have with your dog is precious and, um, they are the greatest friends on earth. And, uh, I'm, I'm so sorry for your loss, uh, but appreciate all that time that you had. You were lucky to have it. Yes. Everyone go outside and play with your dog instead of arguing about kirk cousins inside that is the biggest that is my takeaway i have to spend less time arguing about kirk cousins and more time walking my dog so there we go that's perfect well thanks everybody for listening we'll be back as always and uh training camp coming soon we'll catch you

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