Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - ESPN's Courtney Cronin breaks down PJ Hall trade, Rick Spielman's extension with pie charts

Episode Date: August 4, 2020

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Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. Hi, Blue Wire listeners. I'm Greg Olson. I'm excited to partner with Blue Wire to bring you TE1, a podcast where I interview the tight ends who have revolutionized the position. Listen in as I have raw, in-depth conversations with the all-time greats like Shannon Sharp, Tony Gonzalez, Travis Kelsey, and George Kittle. We'll explore how the tight end position has changed over the last 60 years

and what it takes to be the very best. Subscribe to TE1 from Blue Wire Studios today so you're ready for the August premiere. Oh, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with ESPN's Courtney Cronin. Courtney, we have a trade. Like, it doesn't get any better than this. For the first day of Vikings giving press conferences, we're going to have a bunch of them this week. And then just about, what, 30 minutes after we get done talking with Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer,

the Vikings trade a conditional seventh-round pick for P.J. Hall. Tell me you're jacked for P.J. Hall. I mean, he was a second-round pick, and he didn't go to the Combine. And so I went back and looked at his numbers. He had some pretty damn good athletic testing numbers from his pro day at Sam Houston State. This is a move they had to make, right, because you think about the fact that Michael Pierce is out for the season, and they need to move pieces around. I think it tells you that they're in the process of figuring it out, sure.

Like we talked to Mike Zimmer about Armand Watts today. Is he a potential nose tackle? I think there are a lot of guys that they have a lot of position flexibility to play but one or the other. But this is somebody who's played a lot of different techniques in Oakland. He was a defensive end for three years in college before they moved him to three technique, and then he played a little bit of nose. But, you know, played – I think really it just kind of depended if it was more of an over front I think he was a one technique or four uh depending upon

what they were running with Paul Gunther's defense but uh nonetheless how funny is that the guy was about to be cut and the Vikings traded for him at the last second and got that conditional seven and before the conditional seven so that's kind of funny funny in a lot of regards. But, I mean, we know that this is such a crazy time for the team because, you know, your biggest free agent acquisition is done. Like, I mean, you spent all that money in the offseason, granted it's contract holes nonetheless, but that was a big part of your offseason, going to get Michael Pierce, going to get your replacement for Linville Joseph,

and then you don't have him now. So I would have been surprised had they not brought somebody else in because there are several other defensive tackles on the market. I know everybody's asking me about Snacks Harrison. Well, they just made a move for P.J. Hall, so I think that they clearly think that they have the answer at nose tackle and that this might be in line for the competition at three technique. The most interesting part of this for me is that

the Vikings did not sign snacks Harrison now that could still happen but or uh anybody else with proven experience a 33 year old who's still on the market at nose tackle or trading for some veteran nose tackle from a team three building instead they go with a boomer bust guy who maybe could play nose tackle. Pro Football Focus had him playing on the nose at only about seven. Very limited last year. He played more at the other interior spot, like a lot more. Yes, much more. I think it was 73 out of 551 snaps,

so barely ever playing any type of nose tackle position. He is on the bigger side in terms of weight, and he is kind of a fire hydrant, like 6'1", 300-and-something pounds. But definitely in the boom or bust, considering that his team was going to cut him after being a second-round pick and saw him play for two years and decided to sign a lot of other people to play that position in Las Vegas rather than keep P.J. Hall. And if you look at the quotes from John Gruden and Mike Mayock,

they seem to be not super pleased with P.J. Hall. This was from John Gruden about a week ago. He said, P.J. Hall, I'm anxious to see where his weight is. He came in overweight last year, and at that position, that can't happen. So here we are as veteran players would have been showing up, and he's getting cut. So the weight could be a problem. And then Mike Mayock said, PJ's got a challenge. We have a new defensive line coach coming in, and trust me, Rod Marinelli doesn't put up with anything but 100% hustle, nothing but, which you and I as professional in-between-the-line readers could tell you that that means he was not hustling. So, you know, this is not the Vikings getting someone who is a lock solid, this guy's going to do his job this is more of taking a swing and seeing what happens

and I think that that's interesting for the approach of 2020 for this franchise yeah and I mean it's it's what you have to do right because you have to give yourself the option if Mike Zimmer saying this is not a year that they're going to concede you have to shore up that defensive line somehow when you lose your big ticket free agent. So this is not surprising at all. I do think that, you know, given kind of the numbers game that they're playing right now, keeping the roster at 80 and giving this guy a shot, like in no way is he a lock for one of those starting jobs at either three technique or it knows, but he will certainly be in the mix there because I just think there's so much

unproven talent yet that, I mean, this is a guy who's what, he's the same age as Jalen Holmes. He was drafted in 2018. He's somebody that, you know, could potentially fit into the mix there, potentially just be a rotational piece. I mean, they might like what they have better and think that, Hey, this fills out the depth structure nicely, or maybe it's just a camp body. We don't know yet. But the fact that they did trade a seventh-round pick,

conditional seventh for him, I mean, I haven't looked to see like what they have yet in 2021, but I'm sure they have several at their disposal, considering who the general manager is. But I think that this is a necessary move. They're trying to figure it out. Mike Zimmer kind of hinted at it earlier when I went back and looked at the transcript when we were talking about Armand Watts and talking about Michael Pierce.

He's like, you know, not to get too into it, but we have a plan. This clearly is part of their plan somehow to figure it out. Yeah, I also took that as we're going to bring someone in. Now what it means for everybody else is another element of this beyond what we expect to see from pj hall because absolute best case scenario it seems like the guy has a good amount of talent and could be a difference maker but in if we're running different scenarios of actually this sounds like a pie chart for you percentage oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Actually, emergency pie chart. Okay. Here's what you have to make your chart out of.

It is either PJ Hall gets cut, PJ Hall is a backup who barely plays or rotates a little, PJ Hall is a significant rotational player, or PJ Hall is a full-time starter. Give me percentage chances that those things happen. I'm writing this out. So here's a circle. You guys just heard me draw it. You can't hear someone drawing. Well, you can hear me rustling my papers.

I will go with getting cut. I will put that at a solid 25% chance because we know with this team, they have no issue giving up draft picks at this time of year to bring players in and test them out. And if it booms or busts very badly and it goes very badly, like the Corey Fedvick experiment last year, who cares if you gave up a fifth round pick? I still got 75% to work with here.

You really put me on the spot. Let me get my calculator out. You should be ready at all times at this point to be doing pie charts. Why do you think I have a notebook next to me? I knew that this would potentially come. Pie chart, open notebook. In case of pie chart. I will say that as a backup who doesn't play very much,

that's probably going to be, you know, let's go 30% there. I just, I feel like with the Raiders and that defense, I mean, that's a similar, I mean, Paul Gunther came from Cincinnati. Not saying that he had the exact same defense as Mike Zimmer, but they brought several concepts. So I do wonder with the overlap there, are there going to be things that he can't do in Zimmer's defense that they're just bringing him in here to try him out,

essentially be a McCamp body. So I'm at 55%. Let's back up. Significant rotational player. What do I have, 45 to work with? I'll give that. Always give yourself hard numbers to add up to. Because I just don't, I mean, I just look at this thing

with like getting cuts seems like a realistic possibility. Yes, it definitely does. It definitely does. So I'll go with 15% that he becomes a legit starter, and then the rest of that, which would be what, like, no. 30, I think. 30%. 30%.

So hard. Sign significant rotational player let's let's go over these so 25 I like your percentages I think that they're uh right on 25 of being cut absolutely a possibility when you're this team yeah yeah when you barely trade anything and it's conditional my guess is that if they cut him out of camp, then they don't have to give up the seventh to the Raiders. Yeah, it would only depend if he's on the roster. So I feel like that's just a very low-risk move for them. And if he shows up and he is overly hefty and doesn't seem like he has the work ethic that they're going to want

in the few practices that they're going to get to see him, then, yeah, they'll move on and just take the guys who already know the system. That's another problem too. Even if it was a similar defense, it's not the same defense. We said those things about George Iloka, oh, it'll be fine. It'll just pick up right where he left off. It's like, yeah, things have changed a lot since Cincinnati, and that didn't work out very well. So I agree that there's a decent shot that he is let go. But the fact that he's 25 years old, has higher potential as a second-round pick, might be a guy that you stash even though you don't like what you initially saw from him. So I think that the maybe more realistic, as I think you had it as 30%, and I agree with that, a little more more realistic is that he just doesn't play a

lot. And we all go, yeah, remember when they traded for that guy and we grinded his tape and looked at all his analytics and everything, and they didn't do anything. Uh, good shot that he's in the ballpark of a Tremaine Brock that they traded for

right. Yeah. That's right. That's what, uh, that's what was out there on the internet, even though that never really happened. Now, him becoming a decent rotational player is absolutely an equal possibility to being stashed for next year. Yeah, 30%.

And becoming a starter, low percentage. Because, like you said, he hasn't played nose tackle a whole lot. And unless he's really terrific and then can bump someone else over to nose tackle it just it wouldn't seem that he's going to play all the time as someone who was in for 500 snaps last year yeah I think that you have to consider who they already have there like are we going ahead and already saying that Shamar Stephan should move to nose tackle because I've thought about it I thought that that might be just looking back at his past numbers and snap

count where he lined up before he took over for Sheldon Richardson here in Minnesota. Nose tackle might be a better fit for him. If you have a two down lineman, somebody who's like really good at stopping the run and he's a big dude too. I think that maybe he'd be better served at nose tackle and you can put somebody who isn't more athletic pass rusher with you know a better upside at that position at the three technique spot so maybe they get

unconventional and they go with a James Lynch or Hercules Mata'afa the guys that they've still been holding on to um you know with the hope that they could potentially rotate in that position or play more three technique I don't know what they're going to do like you'd think that you'd like to think they'll have a starting three technique and not just go a rotational basis, but who knows? I mean, the hard thing is we're not going to see any of these things pan out or at least see how the scenarios could potentially look for a while. And it's not going to be a very long process of evaluating the dog days of training camp when you're on, like, the third week of seeing

a different rotation. It's not going to be the case this year potentially. So I think it's just, you know, at this point, he's not a proven veteran. So, like, to expect – I mean, if you brought Snacks Harrison in here, he's your nose tackle. Like, he is starting day one. And, I mean, I was kind of surprised that he's still out there. I'm also surprised the team hasn't picked him up because I know Zim loves him.

But it's, you know, neither here nor there. Like, that just hasn't happened. So significant rotational player I think could be the best bet here, even though it's in line with rotational backup who doesn't play much. Shamar Stephan in 2018 with Seattle played a little over 200 snaps out of his 500-something at the nose tackle position. And, you know, when he was filling in for Linval Joseph in 2016 it was almost like and I would have to go back and really look closer at this but it was almost like they

used a totally different type of strategy when they didn't have Linval in there as opposed to having someone lined up over the center a lot of just having the defensive tackles on either side now I mean I would have to really study what, but when I looked at Shamar Steffen's numbers in 2016, he did have to fill in for Joseph a couple times, but didn't line up in that pure nose tackle position very often, which makes me wonder if Zimmer will make a defensive line tweak here because he doesn't have really a true nose tackle and once again here we are Armond Watts come on down like this is this is yours uh it's there for the taking he played the nose in week 17 he showed a lot and he's got that opportunity I wonder if you think though that if

PJ Hall shows anything that this will be the end of Jaleel Johnson in Minnesota. Yeah, probably. Because Jaleel has only hit the ceiling. His ceiling right now is as a rotational backup that doesn't play that much and doesn't generate that much production. At least, can you expect that he would generate the production you need from a starter for him to make that jump? Then maybe. But if you're looking at veterans on the bubble on the defensive line you know before

all this I would have said said Shamar Steffen just you know given the guys that they have potential three techniques but also just kind of knowing his limitations but now I'm like well if there's anybody in the defensive line it kind of feels like Jaleel Johnson would be that answer there because it didn't work out for him he wasn't able to beat guys out the first three years and yeah he's a fourth round pick but I mean he's been a solid contributor like a consistently solid contributor but you don't get a lot out of him so maybe PJ Hall is being brought in here to kind of you know I don't know maybe that's maybe that's the competition we should be looking at between both him and Jaleel Johnson yeah I think so and you also have Mata'afa, Holmes, Jalen Holmes, like these guys are all going to be battling. Yeah, who knows about Jalen Holmes either? I mean, we haven't

seen him. He's been hurt, and then he hasn't done anything. So I mean, that's, it's just all these relatively unknown commodities on the defensive line in the interior that you have so many question marks outside of you know your defense your two defensive ends like everything is up for grabs on the defensive interior get back to the conversation in just a minute but first have to tell you about something very cool from our friends at soda stick you probably know them for minnesota sports inspired hats and shirts and hoodies that are screen printed in minnesota butoda Stick also has artwork as well. You're going to want to check out their Man Cave prints,

20 by 24 prints representing everything Minnesota sports, from awesome throwback logos to legendary plays at first base to famous disgusting acts in Green Bay. They are on sale now for just $35. You can't go out to games at the moment, but you can liven up where you're watching them from. You want to get SodaStick's very cool prints. Go to SodaStick.com. That's S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com and use the promo code Purple Insider for free shipping. Yeah. And from what Zimmer has said now twice in his last two press conferences,

he talked about if somebody's in year two or year three, and there's a rookie that they like more for potential, they're going to keep that rookie. So that really puts a target on those guys. In fact, it almost reads as if he's talking specifically about them. Like, guys, James Lynch is going to take your job because he's got more potential than you do unless you really show out in training camp here. So let's talk about what we heard from Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman. The Vikings announced a multi-year extension for Rick Spielman. You and I talked about this the other day, that it was a foregone conclusion. But let me ask you this question. Where would you have

the Vikings front office if you were to attempt to rank all 32 front offices? This is much easier to do with coaches because we've seen them and they have win-loss records and they get a lot of coverage for their moves and things like that. We all think that we could be a better general manager than every team's general manager that we focus on. But I think that there's been tremendous stability here and consistently very competitive rosters built and things that you would put as feathers in your cap, like lower drafted players or undrafted players who become highly successful in the league. And considering where they've been at the quarterback position for the last few years, you know, going back to Teddy's injury and everything else, to stay competitive,

I think says a lot about what this front office has been able to do in terms of finding players, keeping the right guys. We don't often hear, oh, they cut this guy and he became a superstar somewhere else. So I think it's got to be in the upper third of the league. Yeah. No, I think you're completely right about that. I would say maybe – I would definitely put him in the top ten for sure. I mean, continuity factor alone, clearly for how long Rob Brzezinski,

George Payton, Rick Spielman have all been together. I mean, Rob's been there the longest. But I think that that says something, that they keep being able to survive coaching staffs, the front office, that is, and be able to make this thing work. And a lot of it, too, they've gotten some really unlucky blows. Like, you know, Christian Ponder's one thing with Rick drafting him, and that obviously did not work out,

but, like, with Teddy and with Sam Bradford and, you know, all the injuries that they had at the quarterback position, but all the, you know, relative success they had at the quarterback position with, you know, the way that Kirk Cousins has played the last two, you know, last season, and, you know, what you've got out of Case Keenum. I think that those are feathers in Rick Spielman's hat that he could certainly, you know, use to prove, like, his worth here. And truly, if you're gauging it off of what happened this offseason and within the draft, I mean, Spielman does some of his best work when his back is up against the wall. Go back to the – you know, he loses Teddy, he gets Sam Bradford in a trade

right away, and it ended up, you know, who knows? Like if he wouldn't gotten, if he would not have gotten injured, maybe that ends up differently, but the right move though, that was the right move at the time. And it was a ballsy move. Yes. It came close to, I think, maybe putting you in the Superbowl if Sam Bradford stays healthy. Yeah. That's a, that's a fun. What if to go through, Let me ask you this. When it comes to Kirk Cousins and Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer, now they are all tied together here. But how much will we grade Rick Spielman and the job that he's done

purely on how many playoff games they win or whether they ever get back to the NFC Championship with Kirk Cousins? Because last year you can look at it through two different lenses. You could say that, oh, that was a really good year for them. They go 10-6. They win a playoff game. But if we look a little closer, they played more teams with losing records than anybody else in the NFL. It was tied with a couple other teams. 11 teams that did not make the playoffs they played against last year. They won 10 games. They had to go to New Orleans and pull it off at the very end in overtime as the sixth seed and then went out to San Francisco and got pummeled.

I don't think one playoff win was the expectation when Kirk Cousins was signed. So I wonder how much you think that Cousins' success or not success over these next couple years defines this front office. Oh, 100%. I mean, these guys hedged their entire careers on Kirk Cousins, at least at this stage of it. I wrote that in my analysis just kind of on what it means. I mean, sure, there's continuity, and that's clearly what ownership thinks. Otherwise, you could have gotten out of this in a year from now and conceded that, okay, we'll see how it goes, but we're really ready to move on. You got to look at the numbers here. So their contracts are synced up through the 2023

season. Kirk's goes through 2022. If they end up realizing that this is just not the direction the franchise is going, it needs to go to win a Super Bowl, They've got one last shot to do it because they would theoretically, if they're assuming they don't clean house at that point, they'd be under contract and they'd have the 2023 season to do it. But you've got to find a quick fix. You're not finding a rookie at that point. That's a Brett Favre type move. Maybe you're going after Aaron Rodgers.

I don't know. But Rick and them and all of them tied themselves to Kirk Cousins. It's logical to completely judge what they do going forward, what they've done since 2018 off the success of the quarterback they brought in to get this franchise over the hump. I don't see it any other way. And, yeah, they have the time now to figure it out with the security that they have with their extensions. And obviously that the time that Cousins has to figure it out himself

to get past the first round of the playoffs. But ultimately, they're going to be judged on how far he goes. And really, if he doesn't pan out, that's going to be a bad look for them. And it's going to put so much pressure on them to try to get it done in one year and that just never is something that you want to wager on yeah I think that now in this era of Zim Spielman and Cousins because all of them have new contracts starting this year that it is the trio that all gets judged together the first Zimmer run through is you don't have a quarterback that's getting judged because Teddy gets hurt and who knows what he would have become and then you've got sort of the carousel there at quarterback and you could almost separate the general manager from Zimmer in some ways but those two are closer tied together because Zimmer has so much say with the roster but it's largely been on the defensive side that Zimmer has his most say

and offensive coordinators have shifted in and out, sometimes on their own doing, sometimes not. And now with Kubiak in his position, it's like everything is all solid with these guys, that it's all sort of starting at the same point. Kubiak's your OC, Zimmer extension, Spielman extension, Cousins extension. Now it is sort of the new era or turning of a different page in which they will all be judged together as a unit as opposed to sort of individually, well, Zimmer did this well, Spielman did that well,

you know, that kind of thing. I feel like they've been judged together, though, for a long time. Maybe I just, yeah, Zimmer got here in 2014, and I wouldn't say they were judged together right away, but they've been really let's say like ever since like 2016 2015 the playoff year like that's been the start of their little marriage together and for better or for worse those two are linked together I found a kind of an interesting stat um with the list of coaches and GMs who have both been with the same team since 2015 so that

was one year after when Zim got here um the six years that Zimmer and Spielman have been together is the longest for any current GM coach duo that hasn't won a Super Bowl um so the other duos on this list which is Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis Mike Tomlin Kevin Colbert um Pete Carroll and John Schneider Dan Quinn and Thomas Dimitrov everybody else on that list has either gone to a Super Bowl, all of them have gone to a Super Bowl, and all but the Falcons, when they came close, but all but the Falcons have won that Super Bowl. So that's kind of an interesting list to be a part of.

But clearly, you know, regardless of what you or I think about it, you've got to look at ownership, and ownership truly believes that this is the answer. Like, they bought into the whole, Andy Reid, it took him 21 years to win a Super Bowl, and, you know, John Harbaugh and blah, blah, blah. Well, are they, is that the right logic to have? Or, you know, I think that they just kind of looked at the situation being like, hey, we're in the midst of a global pandemic where we don't know if the season's going to happen or not.

Like, we might as well get a little, like, you know, continue on with what we're doing because we think it works. We're not completely sure, but we think it works. But I think that they really truly do believe it works because of the length of the contracts that they just bestowed. It's not a two-year. It's not a one-year. It's a three-year, and it's a big deal. You know, this offseason, you alluded to it,

where Rick Spielman and the front office needed to put themselves in a position to sell for 2021 and 2022 as we can be real legit Super Bowl contenders, which is not to say that they can't win the division this year, but to sell that it's a very exciting future is what you would be trying to negotiate if you're saying you should sign me to a three-year contract extension you're trying to say look we've had to have a setback as every team does here but we can still be good this year and then be great in the future how about this what do you think the peak of the next Zimmer Spielman cousins and we'll throw Gary in there because we love Gary. What is the peak of this new era? In 2020 or in this next four years, essentially counting the current year?

Yeah, in the time in which they are together, which may not go for the length of the entire contract because it's football and you never know, or it might. For the contract extensions that all of them have, I mean, I don't know what Gary's contract situation is. I assume he's kind of year to year. Two years, yeah. But the rest of them, though, they're going about the same length, one year past Cousins right now, but they can renegotiate that whenever they want to if they want to keep Cousins here. I mean, do you think that in this next era of Zim Spielman that they reach the playoffs and that's it the NFC championship I think 11 and 5 will be the peak and it will be an NFC championship I don't I don't honestly know if this is a Super Bowl team I can't

tell you what this defense yet um I need to I probably need a little bit more time if I'm gonna go crazy like that but I think that this offense is capable if it gets another year with you know Justin Jefferson to where he's going to be at his sophomore season in the NFL and you know everything else get Ezra Cleveland in at left tackle if you can get an offensive line that is I mean something that's you know alluded them there in these last few years and it's not like they haven't tried like people when they want to play GM always like like to you know crap all over rick for like the offensive line like they've made moves some of them haven't worked out but like they've made moves probably could do more yes but it's not like it's not for a lack of trying

um but i think that i think an nfc championship is the bare minimum here if you're giving somebody this much job security but also beyond that um you know you're building yourself up for the future when he got 15 draft picks in april those 15 weren't necessarily you're not thinking okay these 15 are going to be awesome this year how they might even sign off 15 of the roster but you're thinking i'm building for the future right now i need to show the front office like look what i did i didn't have a lot of cap space to work with in free agency. We don't know what's going to happen with the COVID pandemic, because in April, we really didn't have any idea. And now it's like, okay, we have the pieces in place for the future. This year, if you win, everything is gravy. If you

don't win, though, it's not the end of the world, because we're set up for 2021 and beyond. I mean, I definitely think that that's the approach that they took and is the right one considering where they're at is to remain competitive if you can, but not go crazy trying to cut people and sign free agents to fill their spots and be desperate because when you're desperate, you end up with a 4-12 type of season. A lot of times, even the team that desperately spends the most in free agency ends up as a team that's a major bust for that year because I think that free agency is usually pretty dangerous to spend in.

The prudent way is usually maybe a star in free agency like Sheldon Richardson or Kirk Cousins, but when you're overspending on older players or something like that, you put yourself at a lot of risk. It is to draft 15 players and take your best shot and hope you land another 2015 draft. I look at this as it can go one of two ways. It will either go that they will be exactly what they were last year, which is good, competitive. They win some. They disappoint you at times, and that's it.

Or it probably goes in a bad way that the drafts over the last two years do not hit like they did in the past, and then we're talking about, well, eventually you've got to rebuild in the post-Kirk Cousins era. I have a tougher time seeing, and I know that they've done it once, so it is possible. But that year was so unique and it was so bizarre. I have a tougher time seeing them being able to put as much talent on the field again to reach another NFC championship. It's not that it's impossible. It's just that if you were laying down odds of what the peak is for the Zimmer era, you would probably say, well, you're looking at maybe another playoff win,

maybe a division championship, and that might be it. And it doesn't speak, in my mind, to whether Spielman can find good players or whether Zimmer can coach. It really says more about what I think of the ceiling of the quarterback, unless you have everything go incredibly right, like it did in 2017. Now, once a decade, it does for the Vikings. So at some point between 2020 and 2030, they'll end up in an NFC championship game. But I think you're probably looking at more of

what you already had. And that's not to say that I think they should have fired them and tried something else. I think it just sort of speaks to this is what you have at the quarterback position. And it's going to be pretty difficult for Kirk Cousins to be able to take a team over the top. And it's also going to be difficult to recreate the 2015 draft that put you in a position to be in the NFC championship with four starters, three superstar players that get dropped into your team. I don't know if they can do that again, but they took the right approach to doing it by drafting everybody that moved. Yeah, no, I mean, they set themselves up. Like, they said, hey, we cannot be where we're at two years ago, three years ago, whatever it was,

whatever year they wanted to base it off of. Like, in 2020, it just wasn't going to be possible. They had too much roster turnover. They were not going to be at the level that they needed to be at to compete against the best in the NFC this year. I mean, could things pan out? Sure. But you, and nobody's going to say it like out loud, but you have to kind of concede

that this is a player development year. This is essentially a rebuild year, like a soft rebuild, not entirely. The offense is clearly ahead of the defense. Like even though like nobody's been out there and nobody's, we haven't seen anything, like it's just very obvious where things stand with the offense compared to where the defense like even though like nobody's been out there and nobody's we haven't seen anything like it's just very obvious where things stand um with the offense compared to where the defense is right now but you know that's why they gave themselves that they built this thing to be like hey this is the best we could do right now like it's not our fault that things are like this because it's not our fault the cap situation's like this even though you know they can blame

it on like what the market called for with paying players the way that they did and having to let players go. So I think that it was a very heads-up move by Spielman to be as aggressive as he was in the draft this year because that, to me, if there was any question about his job, and I'm fairly certain we all wrote this after April, that it all ended because of how well they did in the draft and how many needs they addressed and just the caliber of players,

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That is D E A L DH dot F-M slash insider. That is D-E-A-L-D-A-S-H dot F-M slash insider. And it was quite a change in the feeling after the draft from before the draft. Before the draft, we were saying, what exactly are we doing here? You sign a nose tackle. You franchise Anthony Harris. You try to trade him, but you can't trade him. And what's your real direction here? Are you rebuilding?

Are you not rebuilding? Yeah, we didn't know. Yeah, you trade away Stephon Diggs, which feels like rebuilding. But then you sign a very expensive nose tackle, which sounds like win now. And it was kind of teetering there. And then when the draft came around and they nailed the draft. Now, we'll see long term whether it's actually nailed or not but in terms of the process they did the best job that they could

have done I mean you go through pick by pick and you say where where would I even question any of these picks Ezra Cleveland was supposed to go higher Cam Dantzler was supposed to go higher Gladney and Justin Jefferson were exactly where they were supposed to go. They were their biggest needs. There were no head scratchers on draft night. And then there's another eight players who could be interesting for the future with a coaching staff that consistently finds ways to turn those projects into very good players. So they have set themselves up for a very good future. I just wonder if you're kind of capped where you are with the Kirk Cousins that we all know now, that we're not going to be asking anymore, what is Kirk Cousins really? Like, we know exactly what he is. And it's sort of interesting to me that the Zimmer and Spielman

contract extensions go one year after Cousins. So if you do go 10-6, 9-7, 8-8, and first round out or something, you get into 2022 and you could potentially draft a new quarterback and have Zimmer and Spielman say, hey, three more years for us to get a new shot with this other guy that we just drafted. How patient is ownership going to be? Because at this point they've said, their actions have said, we believe that this is what we need, like time time essentially they just need time to see their vision through how much more I mean they keep throwing money into this thing it's been 15 years since they bought the franchise and they

all of them thought they would have won by now so I mean patience will start to wear thin I think once the if the excuse of we just needed time to get this thing back going doesn't work. So like you and I have talked about, the expectations are for 2021. So if that doesn't, if that doesn't start panning out then, then the heat starts coming on for 2022. And if that doesn't pan out, then you're looking potentially at cleaning house going into that final year. Because as we know, you're right, like contracts in the NFL aren't always – we'll always see them through. Yeah, I mean, this is so far off in the future, it's weird to think about, but I kind of like thinking about it is if Kirk Cousins goes, let's say,

9-7 this year, 2021 is big expectations, and they kind of pull a 2018 and go 8-7-1, or maybe there will be 17 games by then. That's going to throw off my brain. Yeah, that's wild. Let's see, 8-8 eight and one we'll say um and cousins is just the same the same quarterback but you get a top defense again and all these players that spielman has drafted with his 700 draft picks they turn out and your opposite line is suddenly good and and so forth and justin jefferson's a superstar it's just that your

quarterback couldn't quite get you over the hump then they might have a case to say let's try somebody else and we're worth it because we did our jobs and that's you know way way off in the future but i have been thinking about that with just the length of the deals going one year past where kirk is oh yeah i think that it think that it absolutely has something to do with that for sure. How about one more pie chart from you? I've got one more pie chart to ask for this episode, if you can handle it, if your brain can process 100% and breaking it up into several different things one more time.

Okay. breaking it up into several different things one more time. I want you to give me percentage chances that, A, the NFL never gets to week one, that this turns into a bleep show right off the bat. Everyone gets COVID, and they shut it down in a week, that we never even cover a practice. Or we cover practices, but then that's how everyone gets COVID. So that's one option. Option number two is that we get to week one, we play the first couple of weeks, then everyone gets COVID and we have to shut the league down.

Option number three is that there are some delays like baseball has gone through, but we get through the season. Like we have a couple of weeks off maybe that we didn't expect, but it happens. And option number four is that the NFL has a complete flawless season with no slowdown. Some people get COVID, but it's not enough to shut it down. And we are shocked and in awe,

but also very, very happy that we have completed a full NFL season despite a pandemic. What are the percentage chances those four things happen? Okay, so the last one is zero percent, so I just threw a line through that. I've been talking with people, just getting like, I wanted to survey everybody on this very same topic, so I've been doing my due diligence to, you know what what is happening inside buildings what do coaches think I think my biggest percentage here is going to be 65 is going to be get to week one but there will inevitably there will be a shutdown but the season they're going to play but the season's going to shut down at some point I am

very confident that that's that's the biggest one. Some delays, but getting through the season, you know, I probably put that at 30%. You know, if they put, let's say they did like, they canceled the first or they moved those first four games to January. Like remember how the schedule is flexible for them to do that? That's what I believe. And then the 5% is never gets to week one. We know this league.

They're playing. There's no doubt in my mind. They are playing. And hey, at least they can say five percent is never gets to week one we know this league they're playing there's no doubt in my mind they are playing and hey at least they can say hey we got to week one yeah like half the teams like had like massive outbreaks and lost 50 percent of their players but hey they got to week one we'll get back to football in just a second but first sports are coming back so are your chances to bet on your favorite teams and events major league baseball finally kicking off and there's no better place to start wagering than our exclusive partners bet online check out all the odds features and props to bet on all available 24 7 so with the return of sports bet online sat down with former players eddie george harold reynolds and seven-time champion

robert ory see what they had to say and what it's like playing without fans in a series they're calling Fandemic. Visit betonline.ag for all of your odds and up-to-date sports news and remember to use the promo code BLUEWIRE to receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo code BLUEWIRE. BetOnline, your online wagering expert. So ownership is really going to have to walk on eggshells here over the next couple of weeks and really decide what their level is of covid outbreaks that they're willing to sustain because once you get to week one then those players contracts count if we do not get to week one, those players' contracts do not count. That's the agreement that they came up with.

Now, it was going to be different than that, but they reworked the CBA, and that's their deal. So the players should be desperate to make sure they do not get COVID and get to week one and play because then they can get paid. But if you're the owners and you have 20 players on this team or 15 players on that team and you approach the week before week one we might get into a very tense situation where the players want to play but the owners know that we got to pay for a whole season if you guys get out

there for week one so I don't know if we want to do that and it really speaks to how much money everyone has on the line for making this work because the way that they've worked it out in their deal is that everybody is going to benefit greatly if this thing just happens and and they've got the season and the players get paid and i do think that one maybe difference from baseball is that the NFL players have now seen what happened with baseball a couple guys go out to a bar a couple guys go out to a casino and whoops half your team has COVID you can't play like this Mike Zimmer said that in every meeting he's saying please please for the love of don't all people, don't be stupid. And I think that baseball is a warning.

Having this happen, having these shutdowns actually helps the NFL because you can say, look at them. They were stupid. Please do not be stupid. Let us play football. Yeah. No, I think that that's a very good way to put it. And there's – I just – the whole thing I have an issue with is players, like sports are so ancillary to the overall health of society, right?

Like it is a privilege that we have them to begin with. It is an extra big privilege that we have them in the midst of a global pandemic. I just don't understand the logic of like, it's the responsibility that's on these athletes to not be stupid and not be selfish. I mean, you know, Mike Zimmer, Dom Capers, Gary Kubiak, like they're in the higher risk age group for getting COVID. Like, how selfish would it be if some rookie goes out and goes to a bar and, you know, gets COVID and then passes it on? Or, you know, you can get it anywhere. I'm not saying that it's just like all these players, like, you know,

the number one thing we have to be worried about is if they're at like a party or if they're at like a bar, but, you know, because they may very well get it and just being at the facility, who knows? Even though Mike Zimmer said that safest place he feels like is actually at TCO Performance Center and that they do have the capabilities to put these guys in a bubble, but nonetheless, they can't because of CBA I just you the we're getting a lesson in society right now of being able to of like how do you execute something that just seems so simple just be smart don't do what you're not supposed to do follow the rules uh and so many

people just can't so in the NFL I mean you can get in a lot of trouble for this and I think that they're gonna have to keep reminding these guys because you just sometimes you slip up and what you think was normal and was okay it's not anymore but you know you're at a point now where this is this is serious and if you really want to have this season everybody has to do their part to not screw it up it's only a couple months who cares like about going to a bar for a couple months it can be shut down here anyways and they're like winter is coming it's like 60 degrees today and it's august like you know worst by the way stop it stop i'm not a fan of this but i don't need to wake up and walk the dog and all of a sudden need to put a light jacket on like I'm not ready

for that I know I'm not either but it's just like you know in the grand scheme of things for the NFL to make this work players can't be selfish and go out and neither can coaches anybody really like you have to you have to take this seriously because if one person screws it up for everybody else and then that's a really bad look and that's going to shut the season down and i don't know this for sure but i suspect that there is something in the agreement that if you get covid or you cause an outbreak within your team because you went to a bar or you went to a casino or something that they'll take your money that's's my guess. I don't know that. I don't know if you've heard anything about that, but I saw in baseball that it was highly discouraged to do these things,

which doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means they're saying we don't want you to do it. I think the NFL, again, with the benefit of baseball stupidity, probably came up with some type of agreement in the CBA to tell players, you can't do this because if you do get that, you know, your whole team sick because you acted irresponsibly, then we will take your guarantees or we'll void your contract or something. There's got to be something like it.

I mean, yeah, it's the way to protect themselves. It's also an incentive for players to do the right thing. Right. And, you know, they're battling with a lot of different things. I've seen some NBA players. I've seen some NFL players, Instagrams of misinformation type of things of, oh, this is a conspiracy or whatever else. That's another thing they're battling against. And the only play for them to really make sure that the message gets through is if you don't follow these things, we're going to either kick you out or we're going to take your money or whatever. Because sometimes it has to be the threat in order to keep everybody safe.

Society kind of works that way, right? So was there anything else that you took away from Zimmer and Spielman today in their 49 minutes of total press conferences? You know, I think just like the overall approach that they're taking to the season, like they realize, you know, coaches can be stubborn and not want to change and not want to do anything that has not been a part of their routine for however long they've been coaching. But Zimmer relying on Spielman and Spielman relying on Zimmer, I feel like this year more than ever, that is what's going to need to take place and not have any sort of,

I know that they say they agree on football things 99% of the time, but in that same vein, you know, what's going to happen if things don't go right this season, if there is a shutdown, if there is, if there is a situation where Kirk Cousins gets on the COVID list and they can't play him against Green Bay or another big division rival, whatever. I think that the relationship between those two, it has to come to a point where they figure –

because this is the year where you start getting over the hump. I don't think you can wait until 2021 and concede like, oh, well, you know, we're going to lose this year. Let's just keep the same culture, whatever. I think that those changes have to happen this year to set yourself up for the future. Yeah, and I also think that they do have the expectation to be good, though. Yeah, absolutely. Their roster is made for it.

Right. I I mean they have if anybody listened to our last episode with Eric Eager where we talked about the superstar edition and we went through quite a few players that are considered stars or superstars on this roster so we shouldn't talk about it and I don't think they are as if this is a lost season it's just when you're kind of doing the math 2021 seems like more of when you would have a Super Bowl chance than you do this year with all the new players but everything is going to be so strange this year we were just talking about 2017 where Aaron Rodgers gets hurt and different I mean Nick Foles randomly wins against Atlanta and just they you know things fall into

place in such a wonky way that you might not have expected. There's a miracle play involved, like all those things that happened in 2017. You never know when they can happen again, and this is going to be probably the weirdest season we ever cover in our entire lives. This might top – I don't know if it will. We're going to do some episodes on this at some point, but this might top 2010 for just how incredibly weird this thing could end up being. So anyway, well, we'll be here for it, Courtney.

And I have to say, before we wrap up, great job on your pie chart. Pie chart. Thank you. I appreciate that. I've been working hard. It's all about progress. It's all about getting better and improving. One day at a time.

Oh, yeah. I can't wait to be back out there soon soon we will be back out there and we'll be watching balls on a stick red balls the thing that the running backs run through that goes to the donut we're so close we're so close i'm so excited all right well uh courtney great stuff as always and i appreciate all of you listening to purple insider