Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - ESPN's Kevin Seifert breaks down Vikings player reactions to Damar Hamlin and Vikings O-line injuries

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Matthew Coller gets together with ESPN's Kevin Seifert to talk about what we heard from Vikings players about the Damar Hamlin situation and the challenges of players being asked to get on the field this weekend. Plus Brian O'Neill is on IR and things are up in the air with Garrett Bradbury...how much of a difference will that make in the playoffs? And the Vikings are going to play their starters versus Chicago, does Kevin agree with the decision? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider is presented by Liquid Death, delicious water that's bringing death to plastic. Learn more at liquiddeath.com slash insider. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and along with me, ESPN's Kevin Seifert. And I got to tell you the truth, Kevin, when the other night with Damar Hamlin happened, I thought of one person who could give the best possible insight about this situation. because these types of matters, though we've never seen anything like this, have been your beat for a long time before you returned to our little humble media room in TCO Performance Center. But, you know, I guess I just want to start this with your prevailing feelings about everything that happened. I mean, even waking up here today on Wednesday, I still felt a little shook by it.

We just talked to Patrick Jones and Harrison Phillips, and you could really still see the emotion for those two guys. Patrick Jones played with him in Pittsburgh, and Harrison Phillips knew him well in Buffalo. And Harrison Phillips was talking about how it's just hard to keep your mind on watching your regular Tuesday film. And I think this is something that has really shaken the entire league, not just people who knew him, but everybody involved, whether it's reporters, fans or players inside the locker room, coaches, everybody through the NFL. Yeah, I have had kind of just a pit in my stomach really ever since then. And for me, it was bringing back so many of the details and feelings of when, we're all hoping, doesn't become the same thing. But the idea that you can go out on a football field or a football practice field or a game field and certainly leaving on a stretcher is something that we're all unfortunately accustomed to, but going on a practice field or going on a game field and dying, as Corey Stringer eventually did, and as DeMar Hamlin did before he was resuscitated, is something that I think another generation of people and players and coaches and fans and media members are finding out is a real thing.

And I remember reporting the 20th anniversary of Stringer's death last summer and talking to Matt Burke, who was the center on that team and obviously one of his teammates and friends. And he remembered saying at the time that, you know, whenever, no matter how hot a day was of football practice, whether he was in high school or college or pros or how hard it was or how much he wished he were somewhere else, like no matter how hard it was, you know, he would always tell himself, well, at least it's not going to kill me. And then when Corey Stringer died, he was like, wow, you really can die from this. And I know it probably sounds dramatic. And I know there haven't been a lot of examples of it, of death or even near death in an actual practice or game, but it can happen. And that is kind of just, it's something that never really escaped me after covering Corey Stringer.

And it was something that just kind of bubbled back up to the surface this week. And, you know, my, however I feel about it, it's very small consequence, but it was, I think I, from what I can see it is settling in for a lot of other people as well. And to me, like, that's like the big takeaway from all of this is just how far the implications and consequences of playing football can be.

And I also think that even as scary as it was, it became more so when we didn't get immediate updates, where we saw the scene and the guys go back into the locker room and i think at least for myself what i was hoping was 20 minutes later joe buck would come on and he'd say folks he's doing fine and they it's back to normal and the two teams have gotten good news and they're ready to play the rest of this game i mean just because we've seen this happen so many times where someone leaves on a stretcher you hear well they've got full movement in all their extremities and they're okay. And we're playing ball again. You know, that didn't happen. And then it just

sort of went on and on and on with no update. And Harrison Phillips talked about that, where he was kind of staying up all night, texting everybody he knew, trying to get any information that he possibly could about his former teammate, but not getting anything back, I think really hit the hardest. And here we are a couple days later, and it's been small progress, but he's still in critical condition. So this just lingers over the entire NFL. And I know it's not a big like in the bigger picture of life but like this week is set to be a huge week as far as who's making the playoffs and teams have to

take the field and prepare under these circumstances and I know it's not a question we got an opportunity to ask about people's opinions of whether they should be playing or not this week but the way I looked at it is that players maybe need to have that discussion with the NFLPA, and is it a possibility? Just like even looking at the faces of the two men that we just spoke with, you could see it in their eyes that like it's not there for those guys with the focus. And the Vikings are playing a mostly meaningless game,

but that's not the case for a lot of the league this week. Yeah, and the lack of information, while understandable, because it's, you know, the family has requested privacy, maybe the true cause of what happened and the details of what happened are common knowledge behind the scenes amongst players and coaches. And I know Harrison Phillips alluded to knowing some things, which you would understand that he would based on having played in Buffalo for the past four years.

He has a lot of people he knows there that he's been chatting with, but basically all of these guys have to go on the field and do exactly what DeMar Hamlin was doing, you know, play football, make a tackle, you know, go on, go to the ground, get up. And, you know, maybe it'll, you know, maybe it'll, we'll come out that some extremely rare and unlikely series of events cause this or something that doesn't, you know, you wouldn't project will ever happen again in a hundred years,

or he had some kind of, we all almost want him to have had some kind of pre-existing condition that would have made it doesn't apply to all the other players. But I don't know that anybody really knows that yet. Well, they might have some ideas. And that, to me, like, I can't, you know, I'm not going to put myself in their shoes. But if it were me, I would be at least thinking about that, that like, what, you know, what happened? And am I as safe as I thought I was? Or am I less safe? Or do I need to do more things to protect myself? Should I go get a heart checkup? I don't know, like that, those are in the absence of information and knowledge i would imagine that's the kind of thing that those guys will be thinking about um you know i we tried that we asked you know patrick

jones and harrison phillips like how just how they're doing and kevin o'connell as well and i and kevin o'connell said you know we're all just kind of processing and i think that's probably the right word um everybody does it differently and you know, we're all just kind of processing. And I think that's probably the right word. Everybody does it differently and, you know, takes it to different levels. But, like, this wasn't like something that happened outside of football. This was in the very, you know, football is blocking and tackling. DeMar Hamlin made a tackle, and he's in the ICU still. And so that, you know, to me is part of this week. And, you know, it was only Wednesday. It's the first day that guys are back. We've seen other situations,

not like this, but other situations that had a level of seriousness kind of start to fade from the consciousness as time goes on. And we'll see if that's the case with this or not, but it's a very, it's, it's almost completely unique and unprecedented in NFL history to have had a player need to be revived on the field. And I would imagine that, that the processing of that is very complex. Yeah. I mean, it's so such a fundamental thing of NFL players that they block things out that, you know, they don't worry about distractions or things that are going on in their personal lives or whatever else. But with this, it's impossible to block it out. I mean, in part because everywhere you look, every refresh of social media has something about it.

Every TV station has something about it. Plus every locker room is talking about it. And even if they're not discussing it openly, they're all feeling it. And I think that that, you know, trying to put myself in their shoes, which is almost impossible with a sport like this, but I can really see it. When it's a freak thing, which has happened for serious injuries before somebody gets twisted up, somebody falls in a very strange way something that almost never happens right then you could say like well that's just that's just a bad break but this one it's a regular tackle and i think that if i were in their shoes that would be the hard thing to move past in going out to the field and play again right away is that it was a regular tackle. It's the same tackle that

I'm going to make on a wide receiver coming across the middle or whatever, exactly the same that he did. And even if it, if what happened is what most doctors seem to think happened, which is not confirmed yet, which is just taking a hit to the chest, similar to a baseball or lacrosse ball. Every once in a while, this happens and it throws off the rhythm of the heart if that is what happened it's unbelievably unlikely but that doesn't matter right like you can't just tell somebody like well look i mean it doesn't happen that often so i mean that doesn't make it feel any better for these guys no and i know ryan clark from espn i think he either said this or tweeted it, that the first snap of the first game on Saturday, this game, this week is scheduled

to have two Saturday games, is going to be the most terrifying snap of football he's ever watched. And not because what happened to DeMar Hamlin is now more likely to happen to anybody else, but because it did happen, something incredibly unlikely. And the condition you're referring to, if that turns out to be the case, our TJ Quinn had a story about it today that NIH says it happens less than 30 times a year in this country. So of 350 million people. And so incredibly rare, incredibly unlikely timing for it to happen. But the last snap of football that we saw was that. And then the first snap, the next snap we see will be on Saturday.

And I'll be among those who feel the same way Ryan Clark feels. And I can only imagine what the players and coaches will be thinking as well. Now, you have covered the ins and outs of refereeing and sort of the NFL operations for many years. I guess I'd like your opinion about how the whole thing was handled, because I saw Albert Breer tweeting about this today. And I think that if it was normal protocol to have the guys start to warm up and then sort of everybody got together and said, that's not a good idea. Let's just take them back to the locker room. And the coaches said, I can't coach right now.

My guys can't play right now. Then I don't think that they blew that. I mean, if that's normal protocol in a situation that is not normal and then they made a quick adjustment, I don't think anything wrong was done there, but you can tell me your opinion on it. I also think that the way that they handled it to get people out there right away to diagnose a situation that literally never has ever happened before,

but diagnose it as quick as they did and be able to resuscitate him and get him in an ambulance and get him to a trauma center. Just unbelievable work by everyone. Like they put those things in place for the absolute worst case scenario and it all worked. Yeah. Personally, I'm very much willing and want to give grace to whoever was trying to act in the moment, the moments after this happened, and trying to decide, you know, what to do with the, not only the teams, but 60 plus thousand people in the stands, you know, want everyone to leave right away, and then the ambulance can't get

out of that, you know, just you think about all those kind of things, and so while we, there have been many instances of having an ambulance on a field, I think just the visuals made it pretty clear this was not a typical ambulance on the field situation. So, you know, I'm kind of sad that it's devolved into this big debate about whether the big bad NFL was really wanted to keep playing, but were only saved by cooler heads or calmer heads on the field. And I don't, you know, the truth is always somewhere in the middle. And the big picture is that they didn't play and that they did let those guys go back to the locker room. And once they got there,

they all knew there's no way we're going to play. And so they got to the right spot. And I wish that that whole back and forth between everybody was not, was not going on. But in terms of the medical thing, like this has been something I've covered a lot too, more in relation to concussions, because that's been sort of the frontline health and safety issue. But over, I'd say the past 10 years or so, the NFL has built up this pretty crazy infrastructure of, um, of healthcare providers, uh, not only in practices, but at games. I mean, they don't just have doctors, they have pulmonary breathing specialists. You know, they don't just have a regular ambulance.

They have the kind of ambulance or the ambulance and the type of paramedics who are stocked for a trauma one type thing, which I don't even know necessarily there was a difference between how an ambulance would be stocked or what type of classification it would have and all that. And that they rehearse disaster scenarios, health, whether it's health or security or anything in between, multiple times a year. They have, I know from concussion standpoints, they have, there's like five neuro type,

neurosurgeon, brain doctors, some affiliated with a team and some not scattered through the stadium. I mean, and it's not perfect and they make mistakes and you wish that some of the things that happened even this year hadn't happened. But again, you know, one thing I've just been thinking a lot about this week is like, none of that existed when Corey Stringer started showing signs of heat stroke and in a, in training camp in 2001, his death actually started really, I said, you know, this infrastructure is built up over the

past 10 years, but the idea of, of building out their preparedness really began there. And through the lawsuits that his wife filed, even the very next summer, there was all kinds of extra stuff to cool people down and have cold tubs within reach of the field and places for them to get in the shade and air conditioning and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, the NFL has in its history has done enough, did enough things to not necessarily warrant our complete and total faith and benefit of the doubt. But when you compare what they do now compared to what it was, and I'm not that old, but even when I first started covering the NFL, it's night and day. There is just so much more dedicated to it. I know some

people think it's all window dressing and that they have nice little social media graphics to explain it. And that's not a coincidence, but whatever the motivation is and whatever the promotion they do of it is, it is not even in the same world as what nfl players used to be subjected to and so had what happened to demar hamlin happened uh you know in a 20 years ago um we might be talking about a different outcome folks if your new year's resolution was to treat yourself a little bit better i've got a suggestion death that is liquid death actually because it's a delicious mountain water that comes in a tall boy can and i am telling you it just tastes different it's ice cold and much better than

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or go to liquiddeath.com slash insider. That is liquiddeath.com slash insider and find out where you can get liquid death today. Yeah. I mean, I was just blown away by the efforts of everyone and it's always going to stick in my mind because we see so many injuries when, just for an example, like when Brian O'Neill went down, I texted someone like, I think he just hurt his Achilles because we see so many and it was right. It's just like, we see this all the time. Dr. Collar. Right. Well, I, you know, I joked that I could be a, you know, a spotter for what all the injuries, because we've just seen acls ankles whatever but when they were acting differently around him because normally the trainers go out a certain way and then it sort

of happens with a certain rhythm but when people are going running and someone's getting on a walkie-talkie and everything is like what is what is going on i've never seen anything like this and then you know that whole scene but it is incredible to me how quick they were able to react and how effectively so i don't like you said i don't care about debating if the nfl did x y or z what they had at the bottom line was enough in place to leave that stadium with him alive and that is an amazing accomplishment i think for them to and just incredible execution by all the people in Cincinnati to be able to react that way, because I'm sure they never expect it. I bet they show up

to every game like, well, you know, we're probably here for nothing. And then they go home and then, but not that day. So it's in multiple shows now, it's been difficult to transition away from this because it's the thing on every single person's mind. I'm assuming the NFL is not going to move the week back. I'm assuming they're not going to reschedule anything except for whatever they end up doing with that Bills and Bengals game. So we have a game to cover. And, you know, after I booked the flight and booked the hotel in Chicago, then they announced Nathan Peterman is starting for the Chicago Bears. I don't know what your opinion has been on the Vikings playing starters in this game.

It feels to me like they would be a vastly better team than Chicago, even with Nick Mullins at quarterback and whatever other backups they wanted to play. But it seems like on multiple occasions, Kevin O'Connell has said we have a lot to play for. And then he said today that they want to get the taste out of their mouth from what happened in Green Bay. I think it's playing with fire a little bit, especially after what happened with Brian O'Neill. But what is your opinion on the decision to play starters in Chicago?

I mean, it's complicated, but I do think that if for some reason, and it's a low chance, that the 49ers lose to Arizona and the Vikings are not able to beat the Bears, and they didn't try their best, whether it was by benching starters or taking them out at halftime or some combination of that, then they'd be kicking themselves because I do think that the number two seed versus the three seed could make a difference. You know, it'll certainly make a difference between the potential of two playoff games at home versus one and maybe more if the Eagles were to get knocked out before that.

So I don't think that's a small thing. The way this team has played and the way we just saw them play on grass in Lambeau and the way we know they play at U.S. Bank Stadium. So I – and it sure doesn't seem like O'Connell's given it even really serious thought. I think I asked him pretty directly the other day, would you consider benching the quarterback? Would you consider benching Justin Jefferson?

Just saying, we'll see you in the playoffs. You've done all you can do. He said, no, it'll be more subtle than that if they do anything. I don't know about taste in your mouth. I don't buy into that stuff. I don't buy into going into the playoffs trying to manufacture a positive moment. You're either feeling good about where you're at or you're not. And I don't know that like how you perform against Nathan Peterman and the bears, or even Justin Fields and the bears,

the bears are in contention for the number one overall pick in the draft. And they, and they very much want it. You know, they, like they're going to do what they have to do probably to get it. So I don't know that like going in there and beating them up or just beating them if that really changes your mindset going into the playoffs, then your mindset's pretty shaky. They've had a really good season. They have a lot to be proud of. They've had some stinkers. One of them happened to be last week, but if they need to go

I'd be more worried if they truly felt they needed to go to chicago and have a great game against them in order to have a good chance to win some playoff games um then if they you know just if then if they benched their their starters so you know we'll see you know what you know the grass there is not always great either um there's you know i don't that the injury rate is necessarily higher there, but it's not a perfect surface by any stretch. And so we'll see what happens, but I certainly don't love the idea of feeling like they need to like go in on a high note because I don't know that that that's just a manufactured high note if so yeah in a way

it could be worse if you somehow lose to Nathan Peterman or something or give up uh well then you're definitely not gonna gonna win a playoff game if you if in week if week 18 you lose to Nathan Peterman you know you're probably not gonna win much in playoffs either yeah I guess I wouldn't be shocked if he still walked out of there with like a decent quarterback rating considering how they played this year but Chicago is just the worst at everything I mean they have the worst offensive line worst receivers worst defense across the board I mean it is a team that they should pretty easily take care of and the only reason that they've been halfway competitive in a lot of games is that their quarterback is having the most prolific running quarterback season maybe in NFL history outside of Lamar Jackson he just passed Michael Vick so like

that's the only thing that's been keeping them around and now it's going to be Nathan Peterman who I'm guessing is not going to be as prolific so maybe they can move themselves up from 31st to like 28th in defense or maybe they can get that point differential on the positive side to end the season seeing as only one team has ever made the Super Bowl with a negative point differential but you know what doesn't help is the Brian O'Neill situation and also there is a real lack of commitment to the Garrett Bradbury thing when Kevin O'Connell says it I mean he's kind of like we think he's going to be we hope he's going to be, we hope he's going to be, we want him to be. But, you know, there's this like questioning.

He doesn't want to say, yeah, he's going to be back for the playoffs. Blake Brandel will. So maybe he'll be the right tackle instead of Ole Udo, who I think they don't like at all. And looking at his numbers from when he played tackle last year, totally deserved, honestly. But Blake Brandel also allowed seven sacks when he was tackle last year totally deserved honestly but blake brandle also allowed seven sacks when he was in for christian derisaw you know if there was like a selection of players you couldn't lose into an injury and it's an achilles for brian o'neill so there's no chance he's coming back i mean i would have put brian o'neill probably like in the top

five or seven of all the players they could not lose going into the playoffs. This one makes their road, in my mind, so much harder because that was one thing you always had was like, well, at least you know that edge rushers are not going to demolish this team. It's always going to be the one thing with the interior pressure. But now if it's the Giants and it's Kayvon Thibodeau, Aziz Ojolare, like guys who are really good at rushing off the edge. I mean, this is a major problem for them that I don't think you could just paint over. No, I would argue though, while I don't want to diminish the importance of Brian O'Neill or how well he's played really over the past few years, there are some things you can do to help a tackle.

What worries me is the fact that they don't have a center, period. You know, like Chris Reid's a guard. You know, he played center last week. He did not look like it is a very natural position to him as far as snapping the ball and remembering to snap the ball and, you know, keeping, you know, his head in the count and remembering to snap the ball and you know keeping you know his uh head in the count and all those sort of things and we know schlopen austin schlopen's not gonna you know he needs surgery on his leg i agree with you that the bradbury thing the most they can say is they

would like to see him have a real practice so they can see if he'll be able to help them in a game. And so like that feels very far off. If I had to choose between, you know, having Ole Udo at right tackle and Chris Reed at center in week one of the playoffs, I think I would take Ole Udo. And that is a, you know, to me means that the center position is, I mean, that's, you know, obviously they're not going to like be saying a lot publicly about how worried they are. But like, how could you feel good about that? And it's nobody's fault. You know, they've lost two starters.

I mean, they had depth. They just both of them have gotten hurt. Not many teams have a third center ready to jump in and play great football. And it's not a shot at Chris Reid. It's just like that's just a really – for a team that's been pretty healthy, that's like a really crippling turn of events. And if they make a long playoff run with Chris Reid at center, I'll think that's one of the most amazing things I've seen this year.

Yeah, because I agree with you. I should say, make a long run with him at center playing well. Yeah, I mean, I would be surprised if he's able to play overwhelmingly well, but the difference with the center and the tackle is at least Ole Udo, he might get beat. Even if you get beat five times on 60 plays, that gets you a horrible PFF grade. But it's five plays, and if you survive them, okay, and maybe he can get away with some athleticism,

just make enough out of that. You can't just do that with center. Center every single play. It's 70 out of 70 plays that are being impacted by that center. It's every protection assignment. It's absolutely everything. By the way, there's a rule on the show that if your dog barks in the background, you have to make a dog pun. So think on your feet here for that. I did. I closed the door. I'm on a different floor. I

don't know what else to do for this. The dogs are all locked up in houses. It's too cold and snowy outside right now. Well, it's totally fine on the show it's just that that's the rule you have to it's a true dog day let me put it there there you go okay that's good that's good um okay so before i let you go kevin really appreciate all of your time uh with this team's outlook for the playoffs uh what's on your mind i mean it seems like it's going to be the giants it's not guaranteed it's going to be the Giants. It's not guaranteed it's going to be the Giants. Best matchups, worst matchups, odds that they go deep. Take it wherever you want. I think if they play the Giants, which it sure looks like

they will. I mean, they've beaten them once and the Giants got some offensive yards, so I guess that should worry me. But if you're worried about Daniel Jones coming to your stadium and beating you in the playoffs, then you're not very confident. So, like, I think that might be the best matchup they could have. I don't want Tom Brady coming here. Not that that's a first-round possibility,

but you just go through the list and you focus on quarterbacks. Like, I don't want Tom Brady coming here. I don't want Aaron Rodgers coming here. I don't think I would want to play the 49ers, Brock Purdy or not. And so, like, that seems like the most favorable first-round, you know, matchup that they could have. And that puts you into the second round. And if they happen to get the number two seed,

then that means they could be at home. So I think they – like I would go into the playoffs thinking they have a real good chance to win the first one. And based on what we thought about this team entering the year and with a new coach and general manager and no idea how the quarterback would respond in that situation and everything else. Like I think, you know, winning 12 or 13 games and winning a playoff game,

I would, anything else after that is, is gravy. And even before that, I think is gravy. I would, I think I can, I think we can already say that they've had a great year and like overperformed whether it's based on analytical models or just our own subjective judgment, they have had a much better year than I think they were structured to have. And they should feel good about it and be proud about it. And we'll see how far it goes. But even if it ends in the wildcard round, I think that's probably the furthest anybody would have reasonably expected in the first place. I think I'm going to have to wait to see what happens

before I know how I feel about it. Outcome-based judgment. Well, because I think I'm not ready for the discussion of what it would mean. Because if, let's say, they beat the Bears by 14 and they finish the season with the negative point differential, and then they lose in the wildcard round, I'm going to have a really tough time saying like, well, you know, like, I don't know that to me, that would be like a gargantuan

disappointment after winning as many games as they had in the regular season. Right. I couldn't, I don't think I could look at it like, Oh that went pretty well that would open the door to the whole like well i guess you did just kind of pull off some lucky stuff and how could you argue otherwise if you can't beat daniel jones in the playoffs right so that one's gonna be that was gonna be tricky for me i think and we're gonna have to see how it looks like does it end on you know on a fumble or something that's random and lucky and goes the other team's way or do you get blown out by isaiah hodgins like then you fumble or something that's random and lucky and goes the other team's way? Or do you get blown out by Isaiah Hodgins? You know what I mean?

That's tough. By the way, do you think that Green Bay found anything with Jefferson? Or do you think it was just him being on skates and bad situation and Jair Alexander's amazing? Plus, maybe Kirk missed some open chances or like do you think that the Giants or whoever they face is going to see something that they can use uh no like I I don't I mean I could be wrong I'm not the greatest X and O's mind in history by any stretch but I don't think they invented anything new to stop them I think you know if you were to say just Jair Alexander you cover him one-on-one the whole time I don't think that would have worked out so well, but they didn't do that.

They had one of the league's top, you know, top five to eight cornerbacks as part of the double team that he was facing. And that definitely is a unique approach that they were able to take because of their personnel. I do think he was on skates early. I do think that for whatever reason, when the wheels start falling off for this team, except in the Colts game, they fall off all four at the same time, roll into the ditch and leave them on studs in the middle of the road.

And just with people just flying past them, it's the image that I keep having. And so I think that all went into it. If I, I was, I didn't think that they would be able to have that good of a approach to them heading in, but, and I was surprised and admitted that, but I, I guess I would, I don't see anything particularly schematically unusual to suggest that they found that, you know, the recipe or the formula for stopping him, unless another team has a guy that's as good as J.R. Alexander and can do the same things.

And it's the same surface and the same sort of set of circumstances around them. Yeah, I think, well, first, like you, I had said the day before the game on the show, like, I don't think there's any way to really stop him. And I think that Green Bay shouldn't be favored in this game, really. And well, you know. Bunch of Nostradamuses over here. Yeah, we're all wrong trying to predict sports a lot of times, which is what makes it fun. So anyway, but I do think that there was one small thing is that when he got frustrated, he got very frustrated.

And if you're an opposing corner, you're like, okay, what can I do? What can I do to get him to do that again? And usually it's only when he doesn't get the ball. But still, if there's one small thing that to go man-to-man with Osborne, Thielen, Hawkinson, Cook, anybody else, Jalen Naylor, whoever else they put on the field, and we're going to put everything into Jefferson, they're going to have a chance. Because I feel like those guys just can't beat anybody one-on-one this year. And that's become a real problem yeah and there's there's been i did i looked at a lot of hockinson stuff um two weeks ago and you know most he's i mean certainly been productive but a lot of it's been underneath in the underneath area

that you know when jefferson takes those people away there's been almost no yards after catch um the contested catches for him have not been great um you know that we i know there's a lot of discussion about feeling and separation you know i haven't you know he's whether he once was able to run away from people or not there's still a big area and room for him to succeed if he can win the battle for contested catches and that's kind of the part of the career of his career he's in and we've seen sort of a mixed bag there. And so like, if I were, if I were to say like, if it was that situation, like you'd say, okay, Adam Thielen,

we need you to out muscle the defender, use your, use your ball skills, use your body. He's not a small guy, shield it in a way, you know, and make those catches more often than not, but you're right. It's not as if it's a pick your poison situation right now, where if you double up on Justin Jefferson, you're going to have guys running open all over the place either. Well, it will be interesting, but this week will not be interesting really at all.

So, but you know, I mean, Chicago, it's a place to visit in January if you want. I'll do it. I'm going to do it. We'll be there. So Kevin, I know that we haven't had you on the show in a bit, but I wanted to say, it's been great to have you on the beat, be able to work around you every day. I've always really, really respected and appreciated your work. So getting to work with you on a regular basis in a pseudo way, we're sort of all teammates in there. So I appreciate you and thanks so much for, for giving the time here. Thank you. I appreciate the kind words.

I've enjoyed being back in a, in a media room and listening to the frivolity that ensues on a daily basis and looking forward to next year already. Yeah. We're going to keep all that internal, but we will, we will talk to you all next time. Thanks for listening. Folks just wanted to offer a quick reminder here that we do another podcast called hot routes, which is spelled with a Z R O U T E Z. It's a weekly show where we talk about all of the NFL through the lens of five questions with

myself and Jonathan Harrison. So just want to give you a little sample. And if you want to go pick it up, we do it every Tuesday, usually comes out Tuesday night or Wednesday early morning. So here's our conversation about three teams battling for one playoff spot. And again, that is the Hot Routes podcast once a week covering the entire NFL. Thanks for listening. Last one, Jonathan. The Packers, Lions, and Seahawks are all playing for one spot in the postseason. If Green Bay wins, they're in regardless.

If Green Bay loses and the Seahawks win, they are in. If the Seahawks lose and the Lions win, Detroit gets that final playoff spot. I want you to rank them by how dangerous they are in the postseason and by overall franchise coolness. Who's the coolest team in the playoffs out of those three? The coolest team in the playoffs out of those three has to be, I would think the Lions because they have this upstart team in the playoffs out of those three has to be I would think the Lions because they have this upstart team they have kind of the good feeling around them they have a fun a very fun offense to watch when it's clicking I think right behind them based on a very different factors I think would be the Seahawks over the Packers just because of the color scheme. I can't stand the green and gold of Green Bay.

It's not a good color scheme. Yes, Green Bay has the history of being one of the historic franchises in this league, and they have Lambeau and all this, but you have seen in the past, getting free agents there is a bit difficult because you're playing out in the cold most of the time. People would rather probably play in Seattle where it's kind of a cooler city. You've got more of a metropolitan feel around it, and you've got an awesome stadium that they have in Seattle that's just big. It's loud. It's fun to be there. You have Marshawn Lynch kind of hanging around all the time there because of the legendary status he built up there.

I think the Seahawks would go over the Packers in coolness factor, but if you're talking dangerous teams, it's going to be the Packers because of Aaron Rodgers. As we talked about in the second question with Tom Brady, if either one of those guys gets going in the playoffs, watch out. And right now Aaron Rodgers and Christian Watson are on kind of a heater and you do not want to be in their way. As the Vikings found out this last week, it is a dangerous situation going up against Aaron Rodgers.

I think they are the most dangerous. I think the Lions would be second and the Seahawks a very distant third among dangerous teams out of those three. Yeah, I agree with you as far as coolness factor, I love the Geno Smith story, and I might put Seattle there. Also, I mean, Russell Wilson did so much for them, but Pete Carroll sort of having his moment of like, hey, all you people who told me I was coaching wrong for all those years, nah, no, I wasn't. That's sort of been funny to see him have his moment in that way of being questioned a lot over the last few years about whether they should throw more and let Russ cook and all that stuff.

And then to have a great passing game with Geno Smith all of a sudden has been something. And I think what we see is circumstance and wide receivers make a huge difference. And that's, you know, Seattle and Detroit. The thing that makes them less dangerous is their defenses. Green Bay's defense is far from perfect, but I think the other two teams' defenses are horrible. And I don't know how far you can really go with a horrible defense. I mean, Detroit at some point just gives up 40 points

if they were trying to go through the playoffs and lose, right? And with Seattle, I think it's the same thing where another team would just be able to at some point command the game on the ground, as we saw a lot of teams do against them, and not be able to match. And then eventually Geno Smith sort of turns into a pumpkin. But for coolness factor, although I don't know about fluorescent jerseys and where I stand on those as far as cool, I consider myself to be a modern gentleman, but I don't know how I feel about uniforms that burn my retinas. I love those lime green ones. I don't care.

I would love to see, though, I would love to see the city of Detroit. Now, they don't have the home playoff game, obviously. They'd have to go on the road wherever. But the city of Detroit. Now they don't have the home playoff game. Obviously they'd have to go on the road wherever, but the city of Detroit deserves this. It's actually been a rough few years with them. The Tigers are awful. The Detroit Red Wings are terrible. The Pistons might be the worst team in the league. I mean, they've had it a little bit rough in their sports in recent years, but especially with that Lions team, the fact that they still have any fans left is astonishing. So if they

made it cool in this factor, they get the, like Seattle's been in the playoffs just a couple of years ago. Green Bay has been there many times. They've had all sorts of chances and blown every one of them. Dangerous is a different discussion and it's a hard one because when you look at it statistically on offense, which is the most predictive factor, you would say number one most dangerous is Detroit, and number two is Seattle, and then number three, kind of off in the distance, is the Packers, who don't have as good of an offense. But in recent weeks, all of a sudden, Aaron Rodgers looks like he's kind of getting rolling. And the other thing, too, is their running game against the Vikings, and at other times times has been pretty darn good and Aaron

Jones is a legit star and the fact that they do have a competent defense with some star players got a healthy defense Jair Alexander just played great against Justin Jefferson and so forth that's a hard discussion but at the same time like would you want to guard DK Metcalf and Tyler Lockett in a playoff game I don't I think all these teams are kind of dangerous for whoever gets in and has to play the number two seed. So that'll be interesting. But I think if I had to pick, I think I would go Detroit being dangerous because that offense is so good. And I think that eventually Rodgers, even though they've had good games lately, they haven't been amazing

offensively in a lot of these games. I mean, they had to get three turnovers, four turnovers actually against the Vikings to put up 41. So their defense turning the ball over, that's kind of a finicky thing that goes up and down. I think I'll go Detroit with a slight edge, but you know, they've got to go to Lambeau and try to win a game to go to the playoffs. So that won't be easy for them. So if the NFL does indeed play, which, you know, Nate in the comments said that he'd prefer to see the game stop this week. I totally feel you on that. I think as football fans, everyone wants to see them get back out there in a way to remind us this game can be played safely. Because, man, the last thing that we saw,

the last football play we saw was terrifying. And then of course, like there's no bowl games. There's no, there's like no other football being played. It's just the last thing every one of us saw is the scariest thing we've ever seen. And so there's a lot of me that just wants to see a football play happen

again and sort of to just get everybody back playing the games and, and reminded that it isn't a horror festival as it was the other day, being one of the most terrifying things that has ever happened on a football field. So of course we want that to happen, but also we should be understanding of how everyone is feeling going into this game. And if you have an entire 32 buildings that are distracted, that are sad, that are dealing with something that is just kind of bigger than your usual injury, so much bigger, I would understand it if they did. So we'll find out probably in the coming days what they decide to do. So great stuff, Jonathan.

Great to get together with you again, as always, for Hot Routes. And if you're watching us for the first time, we do this every week. So make sure you either check in here on YouTube or you subscribe to the podcast feed. It is spelled with a Z, as you can see on the screen if you're watching on YouTube or if you're finding us for the first time. So thanks so much, and we will talk to you all again soon.