Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - ESPN's Mike Clay talks Vikings projections and Irv Smith Sr. breaks down his son's game

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

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He is a fantasy genius and puts out projections every year that people get extremely mad about. It is Mike Clay. What is up, Mike? Not too much, but you're exactly right. People get way too mad about predictions and projections, as we know all too well. But it's a fun process. It's something that, you know, I've been doing for a long time that helps me best understand the NFL. And I'm glad that I found a way to share them because, you know, there's a few people out there that I think appreciate them. You don't see them people commenting too often on social media, but, you know, nonetheless, they exist. Every year when you put them out, I get super excited

because I want to study them and analyze them and write about them. And maybe you could kind of explain how you come to a lot of these numbers because, you know, I think that people always in their minds expect, like, oh, well, my quarterback should throw for 5,000 yards, 40 touchdowns. And if you don't think that, then you are hating ass Mike Clay. But, you know, I mean, even like someone like, you know, Justin Jefferson, for example, you've got him at 56 catches. He's a rookie. It's really hard to figure out what rookies are going to do. So how do you balance a lot of those factors that make projections really difficult?

Well, certainly for a guy like Jefferson or a rookie, I mean, because we're talking defense here too. So even like a Jeff Gladney, for example, projecting him out would be using historical context and opportunity in the offense, right? I mean, if Justin Jefferson was drafted by, say, the Bengals in T. Higgins' slot, you know, the projection would not be as high because they have a lot of wide receivers that you expect to be in the mix there. But Jefferson goes, of course, to a situation here where with Stephon Biggs traded, he has an opportunity to play a pretty significant role. So, you know, there's always a subjective element to projections. Anyone who tells you they've automated projections for the NFL is not

somewhere you really want to be looking, right? I mean, there's just too many variables. There's too much news. There's too many adjustments. You have to be able to adjust for depth chart changes, news, injuries. And also, you know, this isn't baseball, right? It's not. There's a lot more variables

involved and we can't, we haven't figured out a way at least to project everything. Maybe someday with all the game charting that we have now, it could be possible down the road to quantify more things, but we don't have it all solved. So we have to use some intuition, I guess, and kind of get an idea of, for example, what Justin Jefferson's average depth of target might be or his catch rate or his, you know, his target number for the season. And those are the kind of things that on a day-to-day basis, I'm updating and adjusting for beat reporter reports, including reports from someone like yourself and insight from people closest to the

teams, as well as injury news, COVID news, you name it, whatever it is, I'm adjusting. It could be a fullback, it could be a punter, it could be a starting defensive end, it could be anything. They're constantly being tweaked and updated. Yeah, no, that's a great point for how it takes the human element, if you will, to be able to figure these things out because they are changing on a daily basis. Before we get into some of these other ones with the Vikings, I want to know what the one fans are angriest about this year that you put out and you got the most at mentions on Twitter. For the Vikings or in general? Just in general.

It would be everything and anything Bears. So speaking of the division, I am not high on the bears i am high on the rest of the division i think uh you know the vikings packers and lions are actually all pretty similar in terms of roster talent uh i'm not seeing it with the bears i'm a major question marks at that quarterback position is the big one they also don't have the defensive personnel they did two years ago to carry that team um So that's it. I mean, it's pretty much everything and anything. I'm just too low on the Bears. I'm a Bears hater.

I, you know, I hate this and that. And they're running backs and they're quarterbacks. And you name it, I don't like them, which is not true. You know, I mean, there's a lot of pluses on that roster. But yeah, I guess your listening audience would appreciate knowing that Bears fans are attacking my DMs and overloading my Instagram about how terrible of an analyst I am. So just not feeling it. So we'll see how that goes. But last year, wasn't all the smart money on the Bears regressing and weren't Bear fans really mad

about that too? I mean, couldn't we all see the writing on the wall that Mitch Trubisky was going to drop back after making the playoffs and that they weren't going to get a historical number of turnovers or whatever. I forget exactly what the turnover number was. It was crazy high or pick sixes, fumble returns for touchdowns, that everything went right for them even to make the playoffs with Trubisky. And then, you know, last year it naturally regressed, and what exactly changed this year that's going to make them better? And Eddie Goldman isn't sitting out, and Vikings fans know very well that Eddie Goldman is one of the key players on their defense. No doubt. And by the way, you should have kind of seen that coming with Chicago, because we had an example the year before with the Jags, right? The Jags 27-18 were basically the Bears 2018-2019, right?

They were carried by their defense were the Jags and the Bears in the first year, and the quarterback play was probably a little better than we all expected, but no one expected that to carry over another 16 games the following season, and that's what happened. The Jags fell apart, and, of course, the Bears fell apart last year as well. I mean, they ended up around 500, but let's be honest, they weren't a legitimate threat. So I just don't, like you said, I don't see how they got much better. I don't, you know, I'm an Eagles fan. I grew up in Philadelphia. I

appreciate what Nick Foles did for that franchise, but, you know, he has his highs and lows, and there's a lot of lows to go with the highs. I't see him as a a much of an upgrade there if it is it's not by much and and uh again defense is pretty good but it's not dominant by any means and I just don't know if they have the talent there especially a quarterback to be a strong contender so I do again I think Minnesota Green Bay and Detroit right in that mix I love asking people about the Lions because every time you ask anyone about the Lions, they're like, well, they have the talent to do it, but the coaching has been a little weird over the last couple of years. And some of the things that Darius Slay has said since exiting Detroit does not give you a whole lot of increased confidence that Matt Patricia can get everything out of the

talent of that roster. But Mike, I look at them just on paper as a team that could win this division and that we all have kind of just shrugged off how good Matt Stafford was and how good that offense was early in the year because their final numbers with David Blau were really not good and their win total wasn't good. But if Stafford is healthy the whole year, they could be a serious threat. Yeah, I believe they were 3-4-1 when Stafford went down, and then they lost every other game. And keep in mind that that 3-4-1 includes that game against the Chiefs

that they basically won. I mean, they were at the one-inch line about to – they were just moving the ball down the field, no problem. They were about to punch it in and go up by a huge margin. And the guy – there was a freak fumble at the one, into the end zone, and the Chiefs guy picked it up, and everyone was just standing around thinking, you know, it was a touchdown, and the Chiefs guy just ran 100 yards for a touchdown and flipped the script up 14 points, and the Chiefs ended up winning that game, so they, you know, they were, they were playing

very well, they had the Chiefs beat, they had a, they were, you know, hanging around 500, and they were going to be a threat, I think, in that, probably not to Green Bay, but in that, in that division, so, and they got better in the off threat, I think, probably not to Green Bay, but in that division. And they got better in the offseason, which is the other key component. They added some key pieces. I know they lost Slade, but they also brought in Desmond Trufant. They drafted Jeff Okuda in the first round. And like you said, the personnel there is there for a leap.

And honestly, my expectations and my projections would be higher if we saw kind of plus coaching decisions so far, right? If I believe that the coaching was a difference so far, it is not been. So we're going to find out this year, you know, if they don't take advantage of the talent, then they may need to consider a coaching change, but you know, we'll see what they can do. It's certainly a big year for this franchise that the bodies are in place for

them to make a run. Yeah. Mike, even last year, the game against Oakland, they're right at the goal line, and they just don't complete a pass at the end of the game. The Packers game, they literally get screwed out of by, you know, a bizarre call. I think it was a hands to the face or something. So they could have won a lot of those games early. And I think Vikings fans don't take Detroit seriously until Detroit proves it. And usually Detroit doesn't prove it, so we'll see. But let's get to some of these Vikings

projections, because again, I love talking about them. So Kirk Cousins last year did mostly handing off and throwing deep, pretty much was his job. Hand off, play action, throw deep. You've got him under 4,000 yards, 21 touchdowns this year. So I guess I'm taking it that he's doing a lot of the same this year that he did last year in your mind. Yeah, that's exactly right. I do have the touchdowns down a little bit for the pass offense, but it should be similar, right? I mean, even without Kevin Stefanski, I think we all kind of know that Mike Zimmer pushed them towards a run first scheme. Right. He wanted to get away from the passing, run the football.

I don't think that changes with Gary Kubiak in a larger capacity here. So you you're exactly right. I think it should be pretty much the same. You're going to see a relatively, you know, a run first conservative offense, we'll say. And as long as Dalvin Cook's out there, he should be the feature player in that offense. So it's not a knock on his talent, right? I think he took a step forward with efficiency. And some offenses are just, you know, built for low quarterback numbers. You know, in fact, if the numbers were high, you might think I was super low on the Vikings, because that means you're throwing a lot in the second half and jacking up the passing yardage total.

Honestly, this is a situation that puts him in the eight to nine win range. And with a run first offense, we'll say, I think it's completely fair. Well, you hit on exactly what my follow-up was going to be, is this defense is a lot different. And I wonder about just with the COVID offseason and everything thrown off, if you were looking at it and considering, well, maybe he will be in more shootouts this year, especially they do have a very difficult quarterback schedule too.

So I guess in my mind, that's what I've been thinking about. Like they will need more Kirk Cousins this year than they did last year. I mean, against Atlanta, he threw 10 passes and won the game. So I don't know if that's happening again with this version of the defense with Everson Griffin gone, Michael Pierce opting out, and then an all-new cornerback group. Yeah, and that's fair because, I mean, I do have him throwing more, right? So he had 444 attempts last year.

I'm at 498. I have him with more passing yards as well. So I do think it'll be a little more pressure on him, but it's not like he's attempting, you know, dropping back to pass 600 times, anything like that. As for the defense, I'll tell you what, if the wheels are going to fall off their defense during the Mike Zimmer regime, this is probably the year, right? I mean, with all the changes and then the Pierce opt-out and you name it, there's a lot of potential weak spots. That being said, you know, I looked back at Mike Zimmer's defenses, and this is like the opposite of what we just

talked about with Detroit, right? You have to consider coaching here. You know, 2.4, that is roughly the touchdowns per game scored in the NFL by a team, right? That is the league average, 2.4 touchdowns. If you're around two or below, that's really, really good. Now, this is Zimmer's last, what, eight defenses. 2.0, 1.8, 1.7, 1.9, 1.9, 2.3, 1.8, 1.8. I mean, that's almost unheard of. You just do not see that from coordinators, coaches, teams. I mean, even bad teams offensively will

score more than that. You just don't see dominance like that in the NFL. That's even better than what New England has done, and they've been quietly very good defensively for a long time. So I can't ignore that. I have to factor that in, even if the personnel is not as good as it's been in the past for the Vikings. And if I'm wrong, I'll be like, you know what, I guess I should have seen it coming because the personnel was a big step back, a lot of young players, a lot of unproven players. But that's something that I definitely factored in. And that's why Mike Zimmer got a contract extension, exactly what you laid out,

because there are very few people in the NFL that you can guarantee will raise the level of really anything, offense or defense. But even on the defensive side, you can only name a couple who just by proxy of having them, you are a lot better. And I think that Zimmer is one of those people. It is interesting that he's had so much continuity throughout his time in Minnesota with the same guys. And now Griffin's gone. Wellvald Joseph is gone, and I wonder how you're factoring, I know that people probably want to hear about Delvin Cook, we'll get there, but I mean, how are you factoring some of these new names that I'm sure,

I'm sure even you looked at and went, huh, that guy is going to start, huh, like Afadi Adenabo is a good example, you know, a guy who was cut two years ago by the Vikings, and now he's the starting defensive end. It's tough. I mean, when you have camp battles like this, I mean, I think it's pretty safe to say he's going to probably be that number two and opposite Hunter, but we'll see how things go. But, you know, there is some guessing game, and there's some hedging, you know, especially, you know, I'll pivot to cornerback, right, where, you know, we expect Jeff Gladney to be, you know, he's a first-round pick. We expect a very significant role, but what happens behind

him, right, is Mike Hughes up to it? Is, you know, Holton Hill going to play a big role? Is Dantzler going to be a factor right away as a late day two pick, you know? Is somebody else going to be, come out of nowhere and play a significant role? I mean, there's just not many, at least on those two levels, or I should say probably, yeah, probably those two levels, right? Because the defensive line is side of Hunter. There's a lot of question marks there. You know who the two off-ball linebackers are with Kendricks and Barr, and obviously they have, by my estimation, the best safety duo in the NFL with Smith and Harris. So a cornerback and edge and defensive tackle, there are a lot of question marks. And again, I'm kind of just

hedging a little bit with it here in the projections. Get back to the conversation in just a minute. But first, I have to tell you about something very cool from our friends at SodaStick. You probably know them for Minnesota sports-inspired hats and shirts and hoodies that are screen printed in Minnesota. But SodaStick also has artwork as well. You're going to want to check out their Man Cave prints, 20 by 24 prints

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This is the first day that the Vikings are going to be out there in pads, and so we're going to get a little better feeling as we go along. But it's very weird. As reporters, we haven't had to look down at the roster when the first team is out there in several years covering training camp, and now we're like, wait, what number is, you know, 27 is out there with the first team. Dantzler was a little bit yesterday. It's like, oh, okay, a lot of things changing here.

Delvin Cook is an interesting one, Mike, because he said the other day that he is 1,000%, not 100, 1,000% that he is going to be playing no matter what his contract situation. But he's one of those guys that for fantasy experts, they got to drive you nuts because you never know how many games he's going to play. Is he going to be injured? He's had this three years in a row now with injuries.

How do you manage all that? Yeah, it's tricky. Actually, I don't project anyone over 14 games played at running back. It's just, you know, I've done a lot of research on injuries. And I try not to punish guys, you know, if they miss a game here or there. You know, you're going to have that once in a while. Or guys like a guy like Cook who had a pretty severe injury early on, I'm not just going to take his average missed games and apply that, right?

You have to – we're projecting the future. We're not, you know, looking backwards. So I have him at 14 games played this season, and his numbers are not terribly far off last season. The receiving's up a little bit. I have him playing, you know, like I said, 14 games. That's what he played last season during the regular season. I think if they have to throw more, he'll catch a few more passes,

and perhaps the carries are down a few, maybe one or two fewer touchdowns, but he should be right in range of where he was last season. So, again, it's nothing crazier. I think the numbers should be pretty similar to where they were last season. He's still the featured back. He's still one of the best talents at the running back position in the NFL. And obviously he's heavily involved as a receiver. So as long as he's healthy and he's out there, you should not have many concerns about him pushing for 300 touches. If you're

drafting all running backs, well, usually running backs go at the top anyway, but where is he in terms of your, I mean, is he top three, top five for guys that are going at the top of fantasy drafts? Yeah, he's unquestionably in that top five, really. There's kind of a top-end five or a group of five, if you will. I mean, I guess you could probably put McCaffrey number one, and then it's Barkley, Elliott, Kamara, and Cook are that next group. So I would say, you know, knowing that Cook is committed to not holding out,

you would say Barkley, Elliott, and Cook have a slight edge over Kamara, but certainly in that top four or five. Okay, I want to ask you about one more key player and then get irrationally upset at you for other players that are way down on the roster. Adam Thielen is an interesting one because whether he's had Stephon Diggs or not, when he's been healthy, wasn't so much last year. But, I mean, he's put up massive numbers. And this year he kind of takes over that Stephon Diggs role.

I could see him doing the exact same things that Diggs did last year, like getting open deep, being more of a deep threat than even he's been in the past. So what's your feeling on Thielen being kind of, I guess I've been referring to him as sort of like the Andre Johnson now. Like, you're the only guy, buddy. So it's all you. When Andre Johnson used to have 150 targets for the Texans. I mean, Gary Kubiak's offense has made it work with only one proven wide receiver plenty of times during his career.

Yeah, and look, I hope he's more Adam Thielen than he is Stephon Diggs. I hope he just sticks with Thielen because Thielen has been a very good, really a star fantasy receiver. Stephon Diggs is not, with few exceptions. And that includes last year, even with Thielen missing half the season. So, look, Thielen, top ten fantasy receiver in 2017. He was seventh in 2018. He was ninth in fantasy points per game before he got

injured last season. I mean, that's three straight years. You know, he's already been top 10, and that was with Diggs in the mix. So I fully expect him to be there again. I'm very high on him. I've been targeting him in all my fantasy drafts. I have him for right around 80 catches, over 1,100 yards, six touchdowns. I'm a big Adam Thielen fan, and I expect a really, really tremendous season. And you kind of pointed out one of the key reasons why, which is he is the only proven guy, a wide receiver for them, and he should be completely force-fed to football as often as possible. In fact, if he stays healthy for the whole season,

he could be right near the top of the league in targets. There's no question about it. And I don't think there's much of a concern about, like, he can't handle it with Stephon Diggs. What do you find with that? I mean, do you find that guys just take receptions away from each other, or is there something to the attention is on true number one guy or one A guy, one B guy, and that actually helps the other receive?

Yeah, I'm not too worried about that. I mean, double teams are not as common as people make them out to be. You know, Thielen we know moves around the formation. You know, if he starts lining up outside 85% of the time, maybe I'm a little more nervous, but also that's going to lead to more vertical targets like you mentioned earlier. So that kind of offsets a bit. But traditionally he's been in the slot. Sometimes he's been slot full time in three wide receiver sets. Sometimes he's just moved around the formation. And that's so important in today's NFL. In fact, it's shocking that more teams don't do it.

You're seeing it more and more, but it's not a full-time thing where star receivers are moved all around the formation and in the slot quite a bit because what does that mean if you're in the slot? You're almost never going to get the number one corner, right? It's even star corners who do shadow, which is not all of them. The ones that do shadow, some of them don't go in the slot. They only will shadow you if you're on the perimeter. So what happens when a guy like Thielen goes to the slot?

Well, you know, first of all, he's on the third corner quite a bit coming off the field, which is a great matchup. And then sometimes he'll run around against a safety or a linebacker. You know, I mean, it's not even fair. And, again, you fully expect the Vikings to continue to take advantage of that. So, no, I'm not really worried about more pressure on him with Stephon Diggs gone. And, by the way, they brought in Justin Jefferson, who I'm a big fan of, and he very well could fill a big part of that void.

And give Pat Shermer credit in 2017 for starting to move Thielen around. He had only been an outside receiver with Norv Turner, and then Shermer was the one that thought, you know, well, let's see what he does in the slot. And like you said, he's terrific there. And I remember the PFF guys came up with that there's more expected points that come out of, like per play, that come out of throws to slot receivers anyway at this point. I think that you nailed it there with usually it's still nickel corners are the third guy, and there's some advantages to be had. People should check out your projections because they're awesome,

and there's, like, 50 that I could go over, including that every game is weighted in terms of win probability. And what I love about this, Mike, is that the Vikings have a lot of games where it's between 45% to 55% for their chances, which I'm sure is the same with a lot of teams. But I'm having trouble putting a finger on what this team will be in terms of wins and losses. A couple of PFF guys have come on the show and said six or seven wins.

Beat reporters lean more toward 10, but sometimes we set the bar a little too high for these teams. What was your feeling after going through those win projections? Well, I'll tell you what, if you're in the six to seven range and you feel strong, you should be hammering the under in Vegas, right? I mean, that's, I can't remember what their line is off the top of my head. I think it's like eight and a half in that range. Yeah, I think it's nine. Yeah. Nine. There you go. That's interesting.

So I'm at 8.4. So that's a little above average. You know, again, we talked about the defensive concerns there. You know, we – you think about the improved division. That's kind of the other part of it. You know, I think the Packers are still going to be a contender. I don't think they'll win as many games as last season. They were one of the teams well over their heads. But, again, I think the Lions will be better.

And though I talked smack about the Bears early on, they should still be in the 6-7 win range. So I think that's certainly something you have to consider. You know, I have their schedule right in the middle of the league, right? I have them at 16. So I'm not too worried about that. Again, I just think they are a slightly above average team with some personnel questions defensively, still an O-line that has something

to prove, not a game changer, a quarterback, you know, a competent quarterback, not a game changer. I think all those add up to a very competitive NFC North this season. Okay, let's go through the important ones here. Tajay Sharp with six catches. Tajay Sharp, he is the guy that they sign and then gets cut. Like every year they sign someone, oh, Kendall Wright, he'll be the guy. Or Tavares King, he'll be the guy. Jordan Taylor. But I'm going to say I'm irrationally upset about Tajay Sharp only having six catches here. I do think he's got a chance to be more of a role player in the offense. Well, look, here's the thing.

You know the team, like I'm doing this for all 32 teams, I think. I do a decent job. You're the Vikings expert, so maybe we should flip it around. You tell me what's wrong. But I'll just leave that. I'm completely messing with you, Mike. I mean, I have no idea what Tajay Sharp's going to do. He might not make the team.

I don't know. That was the point. It was irrationally yelling at you about these guys. You know, like, Chris Boyd, four tackles? Come on, Mike. What are you thinking? We'll get that on special teams. I want to go back to Tajay Sharp because I actually want to mention something.

I mean, when they threw the ball last season, and look, Vikings fans listening, you know this too, they had three or more receivers on the field 24% of the time. That is one of the lowest marks, not last season, but that I've ever seen in doing this for over a decade. So I know that Stefanski's gone, and maybe that changes a little bit, but I don't think it changes much. I mean, who are you going to put on the field, Irv Smith or, you know, Busy Johnson or Tajay Sharp or K.J. Osborne, right, Chad Beebe? I mean, you're probably going to still go heavy with the 12 personnel, with Rudolph and Irv Smith, or, you know, occasionally the 11 personnel.

I mean, 5% of their targets went to C.J. Hamm last season. You don't see that a lot for a fullback playing 20 snaps a game, to CJ Hamm last season. You don't see that a lot for a fullback playing 20 snaps a game, running six routes a game. You don't see that a lot. So, you know, Irv Smith in his second year, Kyle Rudolph's not going away. They're going to play a lot. You just, I have a grand total of 8% of their targets going to wide receivers not named Thielen or Jefferson. It's one of the lowest in the NFL, and I expect that for Minnesota. I expect it for Cleveland, too, you know, with Stefanski there and then DeVoy at wide receiver. So it's just the nature of the offense, and I'm sure this is way more

than you needed to hear about Tajay Sharp. No, actually, I was going to say that it's amazing to me for someone who is doing this for all 32 teams how accurate some of them are for players that you wouldn't expect. The Tajay Sharp one is just funny to me because every year they bring in a guy who we all talk, oh, big signing, and then nothing happens. But I will just tell you before I let you go, some that are way down the list that you are totally accurate on. One is Chad Beebe having three catches. Like, that's perfect.

He gets in his first couple of games Beebe having three catches. Like, that's perfect. He gets in his first couple of games, he gets three catches, and then he gets hurt. And then we bring him back next year and talk about in training camp how this year he looks great. That's perfect. C.J. Hamm with 15 catches is just like dead on the money. They are going to throw at least 15 passes to C.J. Hamm. And the one that I really like is for Kenny Wilkis to actually get a chance and get a couple of sacks as a rotational rusher. You've got him at getting 2.3 sacks. Could totally see it, seventh-round pick.

Usually those guys make the practice squad, but he was ranked a lot higher by a lot of people, and I think he's got a shot to work his way into his rotation. So I think you did a remarkable job with the players that most people have never heard of. Well, I appreciate that. So we will see. And by the way, usually I'm not going to have many seventh-rounders projected, especially for that many snaps, but who else do they have at edge right now?

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they bring someone in. I know there was some chatter that Griffin could be back on their radar. So that's part of that as well. It's just some teams are lacking depth, and the snaps have to go somewhere, right? They don't just say, hey, we're going to go with 10 players on this play. Somebody has to step in there and take those snaps. So it's going to be really interesting to see what happens with this defense, certainly one of the more intriguing storylines in the NFC.

Yes, for sure. Well, follow him on Twitter, at MikeClayNFL. You are one of my favorite follows, and you do awesome work. And I got to tell you, man, projections are fun. And so you just have the job where you do the fun thing, and that's pretty cool, man. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I appreciate that. And you keep it coming with all the updates on this team, so I can keep updating these

things and get them right on the money. I will. If Troy Dye gets a single base package snap with the first team, you're going to hear about it. I need to know that. That's important information for nerds like me. Thank you very much. All right. Thanks for coming on, Mike. Yep. Anytime. Take care. Get back to the conversation in just a minute, but first got to tell you about TheraOne CBD. From tight muscles, tough workouts, signs of aging, to simply making it through each busy day, everyone understands what it feels like to be tense and sore, so everyone can benefit from TheraOne's CBD products.

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but you've got to go to theragun.com slash bluewire. If you don't love what you get from TheraOne, send it back for a full refund within 30 days of purchase. This is not something TheraOne is likely to do again. Buy one, get one free at theragun.com slash bluewire. Only until Labor Day. Go right now, theragun.com slash bluewire. Sunday, Sunday, Sundays are coming back in the NFL with NFLSundayTicket.tv.

You can stream every live, out-of-market NFL game every Sunday afternoon on your favorite devices, plus Red Zone and DirecTV Fantasy Zone channels. Never miss your favorite team and favorite players. No matter where you live, NFLSundayTicket.tv is your key to the most glorious Sundays ever. Use the promo code BLUEWIRE at checkout to get 15% off your subscription. Visit NFLSundayTicket.tv and use promo code BLUEWIRE. All right, now we welcome into the show. Irv Smith,

senior, obviously the father of Irv Smith, junior and longtime NFL tight end. What's up, Irv? How are you? I'm doing awesome. My friend,

I don't have to get it. Good to talk to you guys today. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Now, I think that we've got to start with the progress that your son made last year at being one of the youngest players in the NFL and building out a role for himself. But later on, Irv, I'm going to make you talk about the 98-49ers

because that's my era of growing up watching football. So we're going to get into that. But I know that you tweet out some photos and things like that and talk about being proud of Irv. But what impressed you the most last year about the way that he involved himself in the offense as a rookie right away? Well, you know, what impressed me the most was the fact that he learned the offense the way that he did.

He just grasped the system. And once he got involved, you know, he just continued to get better every day, every week, every month of the season. I was just so proud of watching him make that transition from college football to the NFL. Okay, we need to talk about the tight end position, though, Irv, because in your day, it's a little bit different than what your son is being asked to do. He's lining up all over the field. He's lining up at wide receiver.

They haven't used him as a fullback yet, but I know he did that a little bit at Bama. What do you make of the the way that this position has advanced and what that can mean to his career well it changes I mean when you can play all over the field that makes you I mean instead of being you know one position it makes you valuable to the whole team and that's really I think the thing that makes him so valuable he is a tight end but he can play wide receiver. He can play in the slot. What makes him so valuable, man, is the fact that he can do so much, and he's continuing to learn.

He's continuing to grow. And he just keeps performing, you know, in so many different aspects on the field, and he learns so many different positions. And when you have to play that many positions and go in motion so much, it means you really have to be smart and learn more than anything else. Well, and it was really remarkable the amount of ways that they were able to use them. I did an article on my website about this, about just the different positions he lined up

and the motions that they used them in to get those reads for the quarterback. Is it man coverage? Is it zone coverage? Things like that. And early on in training camp, it was a lot for him to handle, but the way that he developed it uh irv was was really impressive i mean has he always sort of had that i guess uh quick study of being able to pick up on things um because tight end has always been a difficult position now they're just adding more things to it yeah he's a student of the game and he tells me even more now it's getting that much more this season he talked about everything it. He's like, Dad, every play I'm in motion.

I'm going somewhere. I'm in a different position. So if you think last year was a pretty big transition and learning curve for him, this year is going to be even bigger. But he's tackling it, and he's handling it like a pro. I'm very proud of him. When he was growing up, Irv, was he in line to be a tight end? I mean, were you looking at him and saying, you know what, this boy might have the size like you did to be a tight end? I mean, were you looking at him and saying, you know what,

this boy might have the size like you did to be a tight end. Did you think that he would follow in your footsteps this way? Well, he actually didn't, and I actually did. I told him from the time he was five years old he was going to be a tight end. He always told me he was going to be a wide receiver. And you can ask him. If you ask him, he'll tell you the story. You know, Dad told him from the time he was five years old, he'd be a tight end.

He said he was going to be a wide receiver. And it was a running joke for many years. When he got into – he didn't start playing organized football until eighth grade. And I let him play wide receiver. I said, okay, you can play wide receiver, no big deal. And then ninth grade, when he got to New Orleans, he played wide receiver. And tenth grade, he played what was called wide receiver slash tight end. And finally his junior year, him and his coach agreed that he was a he was a tight end they both told me

uh mr smith dad you were right now to be fair he does line up at wide receiver a good amount when he's playing for the vikings whether it's a slot of the outside so maybe you both get to be right um what you know irv my experience my experience talking to Irv Jr. right off the bat was, I don't feel like this kid is 20 years old. And how much does that have to do with growing up around the NFL, being your son, but also going to Alabama? It seems like the Alabama players are treated like professionals there, and they come in with a professional type of approach.

Well, Irv told me from jump, he said that, you know, Coach Saban prepares them. And when his mom and I took him to Alabama for his recruiting visit, after we spent the weekend there, we both looked at each other and we said we would be fools if we didn't encourage our son to go here. Now, it was his choice, but, you know, he looked at other schools. He committed to the Tech DMM initially. He was going to go to – Now, it was his choice, but he looked at other schools. He committed to the Tech D&M initially. He looked at schools like Florida, and there was

a lot of good schools that were in the ranking, but when we went to Alabama, it was hands down. It was about the way they treat them as student-athletes, because they're the big one student first. They're going to prepare them for the NFL. We already know that 95% of kids will never make the NFL, and we didn't anticipate them for the NFL. We already know that 95% of

kids will never make the NFL. We didn't anticipate that happening for him. We just knew that we wanted to give him an opportunity to be the person he could be and grow at a university that was going to bless him like they did. Everything worked the way it was supposed to work. We couldn't be more happy. I'll tell you a quick

funny story. On draft night, when he was on the conference call with reporters, he said that no safety was big enough to cover him and no linebacker was fast enough. And then after a week or two of camp, I went up to him and said, well, how about Harrison Smith and Eric Hendricks? And he kind of laughed and said, well, you know what? Maybe in this league, it's a little bit different. But, you know, I actually think, Irv, a it's a little bit different but you know i i actually i actually think herb that it shows a little self-awareness to to know okay you're you're gonna have to step up your game a bit here when you're going up against uh pro bowlers and all pros well you know the the nfl is the best of the best it's that simple you know college you have good players on every team and there's lots of good players but you know you're not going up against the best players

every single play but once you get into the n you're not going up against the best players every single play. But once you get into the NFL, you're going up against the best players every single play, every single position, but what that does for him, it actually allows him to continue to get better, to work harder because he knows that he can't go out there and half-step. I think that's what's really going to make him the best player he's going to be is that he goes out there every day. He's been preparing this offseason harder than any kid I've ever seen prepare for NFL season in my life. Yeah.

You know, Irv, I want to know how you watch your son. Like, do you go back and watch the coach's film and break it down and say, you know what, you were lowering your hips pretty well there on that block, or do you just watch it as a dad? Do you just kind of sit back and watch it like, you know, just going to sit back and see what happens? I'm curious about that. I watch it as a dad.

I truly do. I watch it as my only goal is to see him every play, go out there and play hard, do what he needs to do. You know, he's going to win some, he's going to lose some. And I played in the NFL, so I know that. I remember plays where I go up against Reggie White and he clubs me and knocks me down. I'm like, okay, all I'm going to do is get back up and the next

play, just try to go out there and get Reggie the next play. And so, I understand that it's a constant battle. The NFL is a battle every single play. And when I watch him out there battling and doing his best and competing every single play, when he finishes the game healthy, that's the most important thing to me.

There's nothing more important to me than when I look at, when I see him after the game, because I go to every single game, when I see him after the game and he's healthy, that there's nothing else. I don't care if they won, if they lost, if he caught a pass. All I care is that he's healthy to live to fight another day. You know, I don't think you're alone in people getting clubbed by Reggie White and getting knocked down. I think there's a lot of NFL players who had that same thing happen to them.

You know what? I will tell you, though, I watch more critically, obviously, as a member of the media. And one area where I was impressed by him last year was his ability to block. Because I tend to think, Irv, it's how much you care about doing it. If you're somebody who is a receiving target as well, do you care about learning all the technique and everything else? And there was a specific game against the Lions where a couple of times he opened up blocks for Delvin Cook. And that was maybe his fourth or fifth game. And I thought, you know, this is an area that we don't talk about a whole lot.

But somebody like Rob Gronkowski or George Kittle, these guys are also top-notch blockers, and I feel like there's no better weapon in the NFL if you can do both. Well, you know, that's the thing that we've always prided ourselves in. Irv does, and I certainly did. And I think because he knows that was something I prided myself in, he wants to be as good in all areas as I was. I mean, it's funny because he certainly wants to be a better all-around player than I was in his career and for me I want that's what you want for your child and so it drives him you know people talk about when I

played and I said yeah your dad was a hell of a blocker and he's like well I better be a good blocker because I don't want to be known as a receiver and of course I'll say your dad was a great receiver and they well I'm a big great receiver too so it's that it's that competitiveness inside of him I think that makes him so good. And the blessing for me was I was able to do it before him, and he has no excuses. He can't say anything. But you know what?

It drives him, and I love to watch him continue to get better every single day, every single play. And I'm just excited about him and his career. What was the key for you to be a great blocker at tight end a lot of times you're facing matchups that well you mentioned reggie white but you know depending on which way the offensive line might be blocking or who your run assignment is you might be going up against somebody who's a lot bigger than you so what was the key to becoming a great blocker as a tight end? Well, I was fortunate. I was raised in a program at Notre Dame with great players. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, what we had to do,

we had to, you know, we were blockers first. So that was my role. When I got to the Saints, I blocked for many years. I was, you know, that was what I did for many years. So for me, being a part of programs that allowed me to become better and get better and be good, I think that was the key, and it prided me. I didn't want to just be a good receiver. I wanted to be a great blocking tight end.

I wanted to be a great receiving tight end. And because of the competition that I had when I was at Notre Dame with Derrick Brown and Austin McBride and Pete Kraplow, we had so many great players along with us that, you know, they were going to do well. We had to do well as well. I had to go out there and do it. And we just, it was competition and we thrived on everybody being as good as we could possibly be.

Right. Yeah. Guys pushing each other is always going to have a ton of value. Irv, before I ask you about the 98-49ers and Steve Young, who's my favorite quarterback of all time to watch. I want to know something about your son that a reporter would not get from him inside the locker room or that maybe he wouldn't mention on a Zoom call or something. Tell us something about Irv Jr. that we don't know about his personality. Well, Irv Jr. was a basketball player growing up. Most people don't realize he didn't even play football until he got into eighth grade.

He was like other kids playing just, you know, out in the street and stuff like that. But I didn't let him play football. People look at him and say, Oh my gosh, he must be. No, I didn't let him play football because number one, football is an athletic sport. It's not a, uh, you, you, if you're, if you're an athlete, you're, you can play football. You can pick up and look at guys like, um, the type that played with the saints, Jimmy Graham, you know, They never played football, but they're athletes. So all Irv did, I didn't want him to get hurt. The same thing my parents did for me, the same thing I did for him. My parents did not let me play football until I got into high school. But I played soccer. All I did was

run and run and run and run. It worked on my athleticism. All Irv did was play basketball. All he did was run up and down the court every single weekend. He played with a team called Team Bibby, Mike Bibby, the NBA basketball player. He was my son's coach for about seven, eight years when he was growing up playing basketball. And we played tournaments every single weekend all over the country, week after week after week for seven, eight, nine years from the time

my son was like six years old until he got into high school. And so because of that, it allowed him to work on his athleticism, to just run, to stay in shape. And then when he got into eighth grade, he begged me from the time he was probably five years old until finally eighth grade, I finally broke down and said, okay, you're ready. Like I finally said to myself, you know what? This kid is ready to finally play football.

And when he started playing football, it was crazy because, you you know he hadn't played organized football a day in his life he played basketball he was i mean irv got he got scholarship offers to play you know college basketball but when that boy put on the football uniform he walked different he looked different he acted different he just he was a football player yeah what uh what was that connection between basketball and playing tight end you know Tony Gonzalez is the most famous one or maybe it's just you know if you're great then you're great but even Kyle Rudolph here in Minnesota was an extremely good basketball player and I feel like there are so many skills hand-eye coordination beating someone one-on-one being able to post someone up if you're

a tight end that just seem to translate those are the skills that you have to have to play basketball but those are also skills you have to have to be a good tight end and that's it's amazing but that's what it is it just allows you to work on your your football skills but you're working on a more safer environment playing basketball because you're not there clanking every play with pads on. You know, as a youngster and breaking bones and things like that, it'll happen once you start playing later in life. But it allows you to start playing. It allows you to start, you know,

working on those skills that you wouldn't have worked on. I tell a lot of young people, I've had parents come up to me and say, Irv, you know, we want our child to be a good football player. What do you recommend I do? I always tell them, tell them play basketball. Yeah. I'm like, I ain't saying go out there and shoot hoops. I'm saying go out there and play on a basketball team, run behind that court all day and day and night,

work on your feet skills, your athleticism, your hand-eye coordination, and whether you're a tight end, an offensive lineman, it doesn't matter. It's always going to translate on the football field because you're working on skills that you wouldn't be working on otherwise. And the other part of it, it's interesting that your instinct about when he should start playing football has actually bared out to the research. That research has found that it is more dangerous long term to have little kids running head first into each other. And that it is about that age 13 14 where it starts to be much safer for them to play so um that that's a good call by you irv now tell me about playing with steve young that is what i want to hear i like i'm really i'm really

happy for your son but my childhood needs to know what it's like to play tight end with steve young well i can tell you this um playing Playing with Steve was a dream come true. I watched on the other side of the field with him for many years with the Saints. Five years I watched him, and I had an opportunity to go play with him, and it was one of the things where I jumped at the opportunity. I couldn't believe that God was going to bless me to no longer have to watch him from across the field, but to be able to play with him. And when that opportunity came available, I jumped on it.

And I tell you, people ask me all the time, they say, Erb, what was your favorite season playing in the NFL? And I tell them, by far, not even close. It was the 1998 season when I played with the 49ers. And they always say, who was your quarterback? And I always say, well, Steve Young. And who else did you play with? Oh, Jerry Rice, Terrell Owens,

J.J. Stokes, Garrison Hurst, Ken Norton Jr., Merton Hanks, uh Bryant Young I mean it's it's when I tell you that it was like a it was a dream come true uh for me to play with that team that I'd watched for so many years and once again Steve Young of course of all the players you know it was great playing with him because he was a guy that, you know, he made it happen. On that football field, that dude was cold. I mean, I remember, this is true, so I can't make this up. When I was with the Saints, we were playing against the 49ers in the Superdome. Steve Young gets sacked.

A guy named Tyrone Hughes, who was my teammate, who was one of the fastest guys on my team, like literally, Tyrone Hughes picked the ball up, and he's running with it toward the goal line. Now, they were probably like on the 49 or 20-yard line. Steve Young was on the ground. He gets up off the ground. Tyrone had a running start, and he tracked Tyrone down

by the time he got to like the other 20-yard line. And I can't make that story. I was there. I watched it with my own two eyeballs. I'm telling you, it was one of the greatest plays I think I've ever seen in my entire life. And Vikings fans know all about how athletic Steve Young is because one of the great runs in NFL history by a quarterback is by Steve Young against the Vikings. But that doesn't surprise me.

Although, I remember Tyrone. He was extremely fast. I think he returned punts or kicks, too. He set a bunch of records for kickoff returns in the NFL. That's how fast the man was. And once again, Steve Young tracked him down and caught him. What was that locker room like? I mean, that had to be like walking into the Pro Bowl locker room,

because players didn't change teams quite as much as they do now. So all those guys were together through them winning the Super Bowl in 94 and then all the way through then. It was. And one thing, the locker room was amazing. It was just, you know, I remember after practice, you know, coach would say, hey, who's buying lunch? And, you know, Steve or Jerry or somebody would say, I'm buying it. They're buying lunch for the entire team. I mean, it doesn't happen like – it doesn't happen week in and week out.

You know, it was just one of those places where it was a family environment. Guys really enjoyed being there. And like I said, more importantly, man, it was just a lot of fun to be around guys that most people would just want to shake their hands one time. Well, these are my teammates that I play with. To this day, I see Steve on the sideline of the game, and he gives me a hug. Herb, how you doing, man?

And I caught touchdowns from that dude. I caught five touchdowns that season, and he has records for touchdowns. Well, guess what? I'm a part of those records. I feel good about that. Yeah, you should. That is very, very cool. And I'm glad that you enjoyed playing with him because I always looked at him as the best quarterback in the NFL during that era,

and his numbers were just out of this world, and that is very cool to be a part of that. So Irv Smith Sr., I am really glad we were able to catch up. I enjoy following you on Twitter, although maybe, you know, too many Notre Dame retweets probably. I'm just messing with you, Irv. But I really appreciate it, man. I really appreciate all your time. I hope we can get together again, and best of luck to your son this year. Hey, listen, my friend, I look forward to it.

I'll be out at all the games. Any game they let me into, I'll be there. If I ever do anything for you guys, let me know, okay? Sounds good, Irv. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks, guys. I'll be there. If I ever do anything for you guys, let me know. Thanks a lot, man. Thanks, guys. Sports are coming back. So are your chances to bet on your favorite teams and

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