Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Experts explain what roles Lewis Cine and Andrew Booth Jr. will play in the Vikings' defense

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Former Minnesota Viking Solomon Wilcots breaks down Lewis Cine's value to the Vikings' defense and what it means to have two great safeties in today's game. Also Cody Alexander from Match Quarters deep dives on the Vic Fangio defense, where Lewis Cine fits in and what Andrew Booth Jr. is facing in his transition from college to the NFL at cornerback. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, making his glorious return to the show. Former Minnesota Vikings, Cincinnati Bengal, and a longtime NFL broadcaster, Solomon Wilcots. What's up, Solomon? How are you? Matt, I'm doing good. Don't be offended by my Bengals helmet in the back. I do have a Vikings helmet around here as well. Okay, no bitterness. But, you know, I mean, I'll be honest, the Cincinnati teams, at least one of them that you were on, went a little farther than the Vikings team that you were on. So I get it. I understand you can you can identify as a Bengal, Solomon.

Well, I appreciate it. I still live in the Cincinnati area and started working in television at the local NBC affiliated here. So I'm still I still love all things purple purple though. I'm still a huge fan of the Vikings. Well, that's good to hear. So you're also working with a company that is working on solving ALS. And so we want to talk about that as well, but I really wanted the perspective of a defensive back to talk about the Vikings secondary. Now, something that I've always thought, Salman, I want to test a theory or two by you here as someone who played the position. I've always thought that secondaries are kind of like offensive lines in that everybody has to be doing their job. And if one person isn't, it doesn't go so good, even if the other guys are.

So explain to me the value of the Vikings drafting two defensive backs and what that could mean to solidify that position from where they've been in the term, hey, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Very true on the offensive line and very true in your secondary. If you have a weak link, opposing offenses, opposing quarterbacks, they're going to find it and it's going to be hard for that defense to stay strong and hold up to scrutiny and hold up to the assault, particularly in today's National Football League, where they allow teams to throw the ball with impunity. I mean, if you can't get a sack, secondaries are vulnerable. And so you've got to be strong across the board, not just outside at the corners, but your slot corner as well. Not just at the cornerback positions, but your two safety positions as well. Dick LeBeau, my old coach, used to say,

there's two areas on a football team that get you beat the fastest. That is the quarterback position and the secondary. In the secondary, if we make a mistake, the official's standing in the end zone and he's holding up both arms signaling a touchdown. Now, so the Vikings draft Lewis seen in the end zone and he's holding up both arms signaling a touchdown. Now, so the Vikings draft Lewis seen in the first round and they are hoping to pair him with Harris Smith for the next couple of years, develop him and create this duo that is going to be really dangerous in the defensive backfield. Now, my question for you is how different is the safety position in terms of

its impact from back in the day? Because I feel like there was a time period we went through maybe 10 years ago where everybody wanted Cam Chancellor. They wanted box safety. Now everybody wants deep safeties who could come up and fill in the run. And I feel like this is a big part of why the Vikings wanted Louis seen because he kind of does a lot of both. I think you nailed it. Today's NFL has changed a lot.

I remember playing with the Minnesota Vikings, and we had a great box safety by the name of Joey Browner. And Joey, I'm going to tell you right now, he could do almost everything on a football field. But Joey was not the kind of player that you wanted, say, as a deep middle safety. He was more impactful in and around the line of scrimmage as a blitzer against the run,

as a blitzer against the quarterback if he wanted to throw the ball. The dude was very physical with tight ends at the line of scrimmage and at the point of attack. And there was no runner who could get around him because he had these long arms. He could just haul you down. He invented the horse collar, by the way.

Joey Brown was very good and one of the best players I had ever played with. But in today's NFL, you want almost a hybrid cornerback who's got length and some size who can cover a large area, large space. And I think Harrison Smith is ideal, particularly the younger Harrison Smith, who I've always loved when he came out of Notre Dame. He's been a consummate safety for the Vikings. And I think one of the best in the NFL for quite some time, because he's a guy that can find the football. He's still physical if he has to play against the run. He can play man-to-man against

some of the more athletic tight ends in the National Football League. But if you need a guy to drop down and do the dirty work and short yardage and goal line and be sort of hybrid linebacker, Harrison Smith could do that. It's hard to find another guy who could do that alongside of Harrison Smith. But I'm here to tell you, Lewis Seen is that guy. In fact, he's faster than a Harrison Smith was when Harrison Smith came out of Notre Dame. I was at the scouting combine when Lewis Seen ran a great 40 time.

He was athletic. The guy is very physical. I could tell you right now, he would have done Mike Zimmer proud. But I think he's going to do all Vikings fans very proud moving forward. No, you're probably right that Mike Zimmer was looking at it going, hey, why didn't you ever get me one of these? Exactly. Because they've kind of had, you know, a merry-go-round of different guys next to Harrison Smith. And I guess I was going to ask you that, how you think that these two can play off of each other?

Because it's very much been, hey, Anthony Harris is deep safety, Harrison Smith, you line up all over the place. And then they've even sort of floated the idea of using three safeties, which is something they weren't doing back in 1991. It was always three linebackers instead. But I think that it allows them to be pretty creative on defense. You know, when I played for Dick LeBeau in Cincinnati and in Pittsburgh, we did use three safeties. We call it a big nickel. That's what we would call it a big nickel package. So you would have three cornerbacks and three safeties. So you can play with six defensive backs a lot,

particularly in today's NFL. Well, Dick LeBeau was way ahead of a lot of other defenses, and he would deploy. Remember, that was in the time when the Houston Oilers in the run and shoot. So we had to play with six defensive backs. But remember, they had Mike Rozier. They had big running backs who they wanted to pound at you.

Gary Brown. Yeah, Gary Brown also, if you were light in the box. So we would go with this big nickel package, three corners, three safeties. You always had to have a safety who could be sort of like a corner, but could also play in the box. And it gave you such great flexibility when you can do that. Now, if you ask me how they're going to use Lewis Seen and Harrison Smith simultaneously, what you would do is not designate either safety to be your strong or weak safety. You would just say, OK, we're going to call you a safety. You don't have to flip flop.

If the if the strength of the formation changes from left to right and going strong on the left side, then they'll motion and then the strength changes. You don't have to. You could pretend like you're in zone coverage, but the safeties don't have to run with. You could just stay home, and still now your responsibility would change because Harrison Smith would now be the strong side safety, whereas before the motion or the shift, he was the weak side safety. But you could disguise your coverage as so much better with Louis Seen and a Harrison Smith because they're both so interchangeable.

They have the ability to be the strong side safety and weak side safety simultaneously. And so that gives, I think the defense greater flexibility. And I do know that the new regime in terms of your general manager and the coaching staff, they do use data analytics to their, to a strength. And I do think this draft pick, it was smart as a football coach, but it's also smart when you talk about data analytics, a player that could play multiple roles and have greater versatility within the framework of your defense. That's fun. It's interesting that you mentioned Dick LeBeau.

I mean, just a guy who was always very innovative. I didn't remember teams using big nickel back in the day, but I guess that makes sense against someone like Houston. I remember any team that had three wide receivers roasting defenses because they'd have three linebackers or sometimes four linebackers on the field. That doesn't happen so much anymore. Hey, Matt, I'm going to tell you right now, when it comes to playing the defense, get the linebackers off the field. I know they don't want to hear it, but I can tell you,

if you go back and watch the tape of the Buffalo Bills game, the Kansas City Chiefs game, and they're just going up and down the field, particularly in the last few minutes, the linebackers blew the coverage. You should know that the Buffalo Bills have one of the best secondaries in the entire NFL. They have one of the great safety tandems in Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer that you could ever have. They were targeting, the Chiefs were targeting the linebackers in coverage. And typically when you see secondaries breaking down and pass defense,

you can almost point to the linebackers in coverage. And if you can get a safety on the field to play that role, the defense is going to elevate at a much higher level. There are some linebackers who are good in coverage. Unfortunately, offices tend to find the ones who aren't that good at coverage. No, you're right about that. And we've seen the benefit here of having Eric Kendricks.

And then the Vikings just drafted Brian Asamoah, I think for similar reasons, an undersized guy who they believe in his quickness and potential cover ability. But it is funny to see that the linebacker position, no more neck rolls, no more, no more Scott Studwell's in the league. So no, no, quite a chain, uh i wanted to ask you too about so they also draft andrew booth jr who's going to have to play a big role um he did not participate in the combine has had some injury issues but when you watch him he's very very impressive but i was

going to ask you about the transition from college into the nfl and what you've seen over the years from corners because it feels like it it takes at least one year for them to understand the difference. And just, I mean, the sheer number of elite wide receivers in the NFL is pretty crazy. So I think that if they're relying too much on him as a rookie, it might be pretty tough. You know, I think he's a really good player by the way. And I think he'll play really well. He's athletic. He's big and physical enough at the point of attack. He finds and locates the ball really well. I mean, he has this great sense of feel for the receiver, but still has a sense of place of how to put himself in between the ball and the intended receiver. That kind of field of presence is what we call it. It's very difficult to come by for young defensive backs. And unless you experience a large volume of throws coming at you, being in practice and in games,

volume is everything at the cornerback position. It's how you grow. And it's not about whether or not you get beat because we cannot judge defensive backs. Oh, he got beat. You got to judge them on how they respond after they've been beaten because every single one of us are going to get beat.

I'm just here to tell you, particularly with the rules today, you're going to give up some plays. Just like why receivers are going to drop some balls. The key is you can't drop a lot and you've got to bounce back after you do drop one. And more importantly, you can't drop one in an important situation. That's how you judge defensive backs. Not if you give up a play, but you can't give up plays at critical moments in games.

And if you do give up one, you've got to offset it with bouncing back by making a big play. And you just got to have more positive plays than negative ones. That's how you judge defensive backs, whether you're a veteran or a young guy. And I think Andrew Booth is going to be a really good player for the Vikings. You know, it's interesting to me when I watched Andrew Booth is that even when the ball doesn't go his way, he gets his head back around to look for the ball. He's got a sense of when it might be coming. I was going to ask you how tough that is when you have your back turned to have any idea when the ball is coming. Like how does even one go about doing that? Well, first of all, it's not easy to come by. You just, it's a lot of reps. I will share this with,

and it's not a sport that I play, but I've learned in evaluating the best defensive backs, what are the best skill traits you could ever have as a defensive back is a guy who played baseball. If you were a baseball player, Deion Sanders, for instance, was a baseball player. He was an outfielder. Paul Kraus, the greatest interceptor of the ball in the history of the National Football League, played for the Vikings, 81 career interceptions is still, all right, he was a baseball player. That sense of field, that sense of depth perception, to be able to track and find the ball and use angles to put yourself in between the receiver and the ball, but still have confidence that you're going to come down with the ball that is not somehow going to be misjudged and sell over your head to the receiver, that you can really still feel the receiver, see the ball,

and have a sense of place. I'm telling you now it's not easy because you tell me how many practices you've ever been to at an NFL practice where that's being done. None. They don't practice it. They should, but they don't. I'm just here to tell you. But it's almost like that outfielder who knows where the wall is, but he can still track that ball with great lacquerty, with great ability.

Those are the guys that I think make the best defensive backs, particularly at the safety position. But at some point, you can never, and I mean never, be afraid of having this mindset saying, I can't get BD. If you play the position with that fear in mind, you're already operating with a tremendous liability. The best defensive backs, it starts with the mind. People talk about the speed, talk about the quickness, the length. And while all those metrics physically matter, the greatest metric of any of the best defensive backs.

And I interviewed every last one of them from Deion Sanders to Mel Blunt to the best. Never were afraid, never thought to themselves, what happens if I get beat? It doesn't even come into play because they're too busy taking the proactive stance. They're never going to beat me and they better not throw in my way. They're already operating what's going to happen if the ball comes their way. And all of the things that go through their mind, Matt, are positive. Every single one of them is that I'm going to win the battle. If the ball comes my way, I'm taking this one to the house. So it starts with having that confidence. Number one, trash talking position, right?

Oh, by fault. Now the receivers talk the most trash because they're divas, right? Especially when they start getting pounded on and if you start shaking them up. But defensive backs are more, we're not proactive in the trash talking. It's once people start trash talking to us, we come back strong, almost over the top, right? It's never measure for measure. So if you're a receiver and you come at me, I'm probably not going to talk trash to you until you come at me. But once you come at me, now it's nonstop.

Now I'm just coming over the top because that's our mindset as defensive backs. We are usually are guarding guys who are faster than we are. We have to take on linemen who are bigger than we are. Running backs are bigger and quicker. So we lose pretty much just by the sheer rules of the game. We're at a disadvantage. That's why we're defensive backs, right? And we pretty much play by the sheer rules of the game we're at a disadvantage that's why we're defensive backs right and and we pretty much play on the defense as well we we understand we have to have a tremendous amount of confidence and self-awareness just even go out and have a shot

at doing that job okay one more thing who is your favorite safety to watch ever that you've either played with or covered? I have a tie. And they, I grew up in Los Angeles and, and the two college safeties at the time. In fact, one was really a corner. He moved to safety when he got to the NFL and the other ones was full on safety. One went to UCLA. The other one was at USC. They were both playboy, all Americans. They went on to become all pros and both of them went on to become hall of famers. And other one was at USC. They were both playboy All-Americans. They went on to become All-Pros, and both of them went on to become Hall of Famers. And one is Kenny Easley at UCLA, played for the Seahawks. The other one was Ronnie Lott. And I watched those guys through high school when they were in college. I watched their pro careers and obviously ended up playing against

them. Kenny Easley had a shorter career because he ended up having a liver disease as a result of taking too many Advil, the ibuprofen, and ruined his kidneys. But we always felt that he was an equal to Ronnie Lott and that he would go on to be a great Hall of Fame player. And we were happy to see him get into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And obviously, Ronnie Lott had this storied career with all the championships and all the accolades. But he will tell you, Kenny Easley was drafted even higher than he was. He was eighth overall, and I think Ronnie went a little bit later.

But he will tell you that Kenny Easley was a great player. They both were, and they still remain two of my favorites. Ronnie Lott coming into the league with the horn face mask as a defensive back is like one of the most classic old school looks ever. But yeah, I mean, that's a great choice, Ronnie Lott. So anyway, before we wrap up, this has been a super fun conversation, as it always is with you, Solomon. Love to catch up. So you are working with Clean Nanomedicine,

and they're working on a treatment that's in the trial phase for ALS, which is really interesting. I did not know this, that professional football players have been more affected by ALS. I once worked for a grocery store where the owner passed away of ALS as well. So this, it sounds like remarkable progress is being made here. Yeah, I mean, we've all seen how ALS, it's called Lou Gehrig's disease, how it has ravaged and taken the lives away from so many really talented and remarkable people, even across the landscape of the National Football League. We all remember Steve Gleason with the New Orleans Saints, OJ Brigantz with the Baltimore Ravens, Tim Green, a former Atlanta Falcons player,

talented announcer from Syracuse University. The guy's a talented author, and he's seen his talents and abilities erode, and he's been robbed of them because of ALS. And we now know that through recent news, there's a strong correlation between ALS and NFL players who are four times more likely to develop ALS and die from that disease. And so Clean Nanomedicine and their CEO, Rob Etherington, they're working very hard to bring new innovative treatments to light. Since ALS has been diagnosed, you have to go back to the 1930s when Lou Gehrig was struck with this disease. There's only been two treatments that have made it to the market, and those treatments aren't very good. They have not been really good at staving off the advancement of the disease. So Clean Nanomedicine is working on new innovative treatments. It's an early clinical trial, but you can go to the website at clean.com, that's C-L-E-N-E.com to read more about these innovative treatments. We believe that Clean is an example of how executives and researchers are focused on developing much needed new

treatments to stave off the advancement of ALS. Yeah, again, that is C-L-E-N-E dot com. And Steve Gleason, what an unbelievably inspirational human being, huh? Yes, yes, absolutely. So if you're not familiar with his story, make sure you go find that out as well. Solomon Wilcox, a NFL defensive back with great insight and a tremendous broadcaster as well, as you can all tell if you didn't already know. Solomon, great to catch up with you, man. We'll do it again soon. Matt, keep up the good work and thanks for having me on with you. All right, now we welcome in friend of the show, Cody Alexander, match quarters, one of the top substacks of all sports in the universe and a football coach as well. And one of the smartest football minds that I know here to explain how football works. What's going on, Cody? How are

you doing? Great. Thanks for having me on for sure. So when I need to understand X's and O's of anything, especially on the defensive side, because that is your area of expertise, you are my guy. And when the Vikings drafted Louis Seane and Andrew Booth Jr., you sent me a message and said, this is great for the Vikings. So I just want you to explain your big picture take on this of why drafting these two players specifically you think will really fit for the Vikings. want you to explain your big picture take on this of why drafting these two players specifically you think will really fit for the Vikings well first of all I think I think you've got two two good players they both come from coverage diverse backgrounds one coming from the Venables

system which is going to run the gamut of all your coverages and then seen coming and playing in from the Saban system. Obviously Kirby smart as is, as his head coach, I think he's been exposed to a lot of different things and probably more than what you would expect for a college player coming into the system. And so I think for, for a team that needed DBs is going to start running a little bit more of a different coverage scheme with with kind of the Fangio system coming coming to the Vikings. I think you're going to see. I like the two picks. I thought they were symposium, but the broad strokes of the differences between a Mike Zimmer defense and Vic Fangio, because when we talk about these things, we go, oh, four, three versus three, four. But yet they're talking about playing six defensive backs, things like that. So how does that all kind of work together with the different base of what they like to do. Yeah, I think what the Fangio system, the two basic things that I think that you can catch real early is that they're going to get in some sort of a odd front and they're going to spin

either to the tight end or away from the passing strength, depending on what they're trying to do, who they're trying to leverage. It's kind of a leverage-based secondary system, whereas others are just kind of getting into coverages, depending on formations. They're not necessarily trying to leverage the coverage scheme against the offense. And then Fangio runs.

Most people are, when I say cover six, are going to think, oh, okay, that's quarter, quarter halves. But the Fangio system actually flips it. They run cover two to the passing strength and they run quarters away. It fits in with what they're trying to do from their single high coverages, spending week away from the passing strength. And it allows you to have a little bit more of flexibility with what you're doing with that backside safety. You're not just sending him off into the moon. You know,

a lot of times when you run quarter quarter halves and you're playing cover two to the backside, that deep safety, it's normally on one receiver and he's just backpedaling into oblivion and you're running, you're finding out that, okay, you're opening up all this space coming from the passing strength. So to me, it makes sense that they flip it and they create a triangle over the passing strength. And they use that backside safety kind of as a lever tool against the single receiver. And then any kind of deep crossing routes that we know now as being, you know, the top routes in all of the NFL. Let me simplify it even more. When it comes to playing two deep safeties, it seems like what everybody wants to do now.

That years ago, it was all about single high, play a guy in the box, stop the run. The Vikings under Zimmer started to move more to playing too deep, but it seems like with this, they're going to be doing that all the time. And maybe one of the reasons is not wanting to give away when they decide to move one guy up after the snap or something like that. Like I'm trying to explain in the simplest possible terms, but maybe you can explain why defenses love to play that too high now, as opposed to having that guy line up in the box. Yeah. So think of the coverage as a contour.

Like you're, you're, you're showing a shell. They don't run quarters or cover to all the time. That's not, that's not going to be the primary coverage. They're mostly going to be middle of the field close, but they're doing it from a leveraged point. And I've always argued as a defensive back guy myself, it's easier to play down than it is to play back. And so when you go ahead and you go ahead and get down,

a lot of times, like if you see some of the teams that played heavy cover, like middle of the field close coverage outside of the Raiders, the Raiders are the anomaly. They ran 60% cover three. They were just running country cover three. But like you look at Dallas, you look at the Patriots, they're primarily running cover one.

If they're going to put a guy down there and they know you know, that's fine. We're playing cover one. We're going to pressure receivers. We're just going to put a guy down there and they know you know, that's fine. We're playing cover one. We're going to press your receivers. We're just going to close the windows. What the Fangio system is really trying to do is instead of sitting in this umbrella and anytime you see two high safeties, we're running cover two, is that they're saying, look, we're going to move everything post-snap. And it's a leveraging tool.

And it's just a way of closing off space. And especially with play action, pre-snap motion, all becoming more and more a part of the game for the offense. Having a too high shell is something that you can leverage the defense away. I mean, think of it like leveraging risk in a trade or an acquisition or in a business sense. What you're doing is you're trying to mitigate the risk by, Hey, we're going to have this, this cover to shell umbrella, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's what we're going to play. I think too, talking to a couple of years ago,

when this did, it started to become popular, especially with Staley in 2020 was that you, you talk to some of these, these NFL guys that are on the offensive side. And they're like, I don't know why more people aren't moving post-snap to begin with, because especially from under the center, I have to, and as much as wide zone and these play actions off of it are becoming more popular, I'm literally turning my back to the defense as a quarterback. So I'm taking a mental picture pre-snap. As I turn my back,

I'm ball faking. And then the moment I turn around, I have to readjust my picture. Well, if I know that you're going to be in a static coverage, then I don't have to readjust my, it takes me mentally just quicker to then reset. Oh, okay. Everybody's where they're supposed to be. But if I see a too high shell, I go to hand the ball off and now you've spun strong or you've spun weak. Now I've got to figure out, okay, who's coming, where, where are they rolling all of that off of a play action with people firing at me. And I think now with more four man rushes that we're seeing in particular it's just one of those deals where you're, you're leveraging the risk, but then you're also trying to make it more stressful for that quarterback. So what you're saying is you have two high safeties as the look,

and as soon as the snap is taken, that will change most of the time from just having those two guys drop back in coverage. So a lot of times there's route combinations all the time, I guess, to beat either closed or open. And the quarterback, especially if he's turning his back to the defense, might have to change what he initially saw, which I think is actually one of the things Kirk Cousins has really struggled with defenses who do this, which may have, I don't know, influenced the Vikings to want it on their defense because he's had the nightmares against everything that Vic Fangio wants to do. So now that sounds to me, Cody, like the safeties play a huge role

in this then that they both have to be capable of doing a lot of different things as opposed to you go deep, you come up in the box. And that seems to be one of the reasons that they would want someone as dynamic as Louis C. Right. And that makes sense. That's why when I texted you, I said, man, that makes a ton of sense for that pick, especially if they're moving away. Like if you look at if you look at like PFF data from last year, Vikings ran 43 percent of middle of the field open coverages. Well, if you compare that to Denver, you know,

Denver's only running 31% middle of the field open coverages. So they're not, that 10%, you may not think of it as a big difference, but that's a huge difference in terms of how you're deciding to run your coverages. And for me, looking at it, I need a safety that can play deep, but I also need a safety that can play deep but i also need a safety that can play in the box because in the fangio system they don't necessarily have a strong and a free safety they have a they both safeties kind of play left and right uh and they try and and so you've got to be able to know how to play down and back and all of where am i inserting am i am i cutting off three you know three am I taking somebody to

the flat? All those things kind of intertwined together. And I think when you, when you get a safety like scene who comes from, like I said, a coverage diverse system as probably no more diverse than what they're doing at Georgia, then you're getting, you're getting somebody that kind of, it may not be the same language in terms of, hey, we call this this, but in terms of like catch up, it will be much quicker that way. Lewis, seeing my first impression of him

when he came here and did his first press conference is that he's not only a football junkie, but a really bright kid, which I guess programs like Georgia like to have good players who are smart and fast. Shocking, but I mean, really, like sometimes you interview the guy for who are smart and fast. Shocking. But I mean, really, like sometimes you interview the guy for the first time. You're like, this might be a struggle.

I don't think that's going to be the case with Louis seen. But it does seem like for a rookie to make the adjustment that this is going to ask a lot of him, even if he has Harrison Smith next to him. Yeah, there's going to be an adjustment period. I think that, you know, it's not just going to be one of those deals where he's going to come in like, okay, we know that he's kind of a thumper. So he's going to be more or less the box guy and we're going to keep Smith deep and things like that. I mean, he's going to have to learn. So there's going to be some adjustment and they're going to have to communicate. But I do think that the learning curve will be

much lower just because of the system that he's coming from. It's already one of the most complex systems, more complex than most NFL systems. He's got to know, is it a fire zone? Is it a three? Am I rotating weak? Am I rotating strong? Are we, are we, you know, is this a trap to coverages? Are we running quarters? And then all of the man matched up that comes off of that statement system. I mean, and he's been in it long enough. So I think the learning curve will be shorter. But I do think that obviously in anything, the speed of the game, the complexity of the game is always going to change as you go up. Well, and there's another thing too,

about all defenses that we talk about, which, you know, which is that you always are sacrificing one thing to do another when you pick a defensive style. So what does the Fangio system sacrifice in order to play this way? I think if you look at any of these Fangio systems in the way that they've built now, the Packers kind of were an anomaly this year by taking two box linebackers, but that's usually where you're sacrificing. You're usually going to have some sort of just aers, but that's usually where you're sacrificing. You're usually going to have some sort of just a stagnant nose that's not going to be real flashy. You're not looking for a lot of run support.

I mean, not looking for a lot of pass support. You go look at a guy like Greg Gaines and the Rams system. He's just a workman. And, yeah, he is an integral part of that defense, but you're not looking for him to have, you know, two digit, you know, sack numbers. You're looking, you're looking for him to more or less hold the point. And then that's, that's kind of what you're looking for out of that. And then in your linebackers, I mean, you just don't, now the Rams went out and got Bobby Wagner, but what does that, you know, that was, to me, that's kind of one of those special situations

where they kind of needed a guy. This guy kind of falls into their lap. Let's go ahead and take, let's take him. And it's a sexy guy. He's kind of, you know, so it makes sense for them. I think if you look at what the Broncos were doing with Josie Jewell, again, just workman-like people in there. Now they've got to be able to fit the run,

but they don't necessarily have to be able to fit the run, but they don't necessarily have to be able to be a coverage linebacker. I think what you see in all of these systems though, is the need for multiple defensive backs that can play multiple different spots and aren't necessarily just, Hey, this is a box safety. This is a free safety. You're a nickel corner. You're, you're kind of an outside guy. Uh, now Andrew Booth jr. I mean, to me, this is a sort of simple, right? We need you to cover other people. Um, but, uh, what, what does this require of the cornerbacks? And I think it's particularly difficult for corners to step into the NFL because the receivers are so darn good and the route combinations are

maybe more plentiful or more by design. I don't know, whichever way you want to put it, more schemed up, but also you can't grab the heck out of the other guy, which you can in college. But from a schematic standpoint, what does this ask of the corners? I think I will say that the Broncos ran a good amount of cover one. And now when I look at coverage and when I look at coverage data, I actually separate out cover one from cover three. A lot of people just kind of lump them in together as they're, hey, they're just kind of these cover. You know, it's all the kind of the middle of the field close. But being a cover one corner is so much different than playing a zone corner.

And I think it was a great example, kind of the video, the viral tweet or social media post of Ramsey talking about Diggs and how Diggs is kind of an in-phase player. I'm more of an out-of-phase player. What does that mean? You know, essentially what Ramsey's saying is like, look, I play more zone. I'm not asked to just get in the guy's face, press be on top of the guy being his hit. I'm more or less going to play everything from the top down. I'm on top. And I think what you're going to see with them is, is if,

if Don tell decides he wants to play a good amount of man coverage, like he did in there, I think it'll be a little bit easier of a transition though I mean here's the thing I mean again he was asked to play the boundary corner a lot in Clemson he was asked to be soloed up he was asked to play off he was asked to play on I think the biggest transition for for him is just going to be the speed of the game the receivers are going to be a lot more skilled he's not just going to be able to use his length because the receivers are just as long. They're just as fast. And so that little transition there, but again, coming from, I don't think the mental load will

be as much coming from a, again, a Venable system that's asking him to do a lot of different things on multiple downs. Yeah. I think that that corner maybe gets the least amount of credit for needing smart guys. But I feel like as things are more and more complicated, you mentioned all the pre-snap motions and everything that everybody's doing, all the switching that you have to do, all the route combination reading that you have to do. I feel like maybe that's one of the reasons, too,

that rookie corners can struggle so much is because these defenses do ask a lot of them. Yeah. I think if you're one of those guys that it's like, look, I played in a man's system in like the Ohio state guys are really good examples. You played in a man's system. Okay. Then you go into the NFL and you play in a man's system there. That transition's easy. I think what you see too is like some of these corners, you play in a man system, you go into a zone system. Now I've got to learn zone eyes, off ball coverage. Now that makes everything a lot more difficult for me. I've got a lot more mental load. I think people don't understand the mental load part of that of when I have to start thinking about what I'm doing instead of just reacting like you would in man coverage, then that's what you're going to get.

It's going to look like players are playing a little bit slower than they are. Now, my observation, just watching a little bit of Andrew Booth, is that he's just really good at keeping himself in front of the other guy. And I know, like, what a hot take, right? But keeping himself square in front of the wide receiver, he's not getting turned around very quickly off the line of scrimmage just from the few games that I was watching of him. What is, I guess, what does it mean to be good at mirroring, which we hear all the time, or just good at staying in front of wide receivers at the NFL level where everybody

has all these releases that they work on and they run four threes. And like, it seems like the challenge is very much different. Yeah. The really defensive football comes down to how long can I keep my shoulder square? I mean, really, if you really talk to and boil it down, like how can I make football as simple as possible? Can I keep my leverage and can I keep my shoulder square as long as I possibly can? Cause the moment I turned my shoulders, now I'm at the whim of whatever the receiver or the ball carrier is doing. And I think what a lot of the Venable system does is what a lot of these

systems are doing is playing more of what I call a soft press of I'm really playing basketball. I'm, I'm making it. If you think about it, it's an ISO play. I've got everybody spread out. It's just me and the point guard right here. We're isolated at the top of the key. And I'm not going to let you just, I'm not going to open the gate and just let you go dunk, right? I'm going to make you, I'm going to make you work a certain way. Maybe we've got a half a defender over here. Maybe you're right you're, you're right-handed and I'm going to make you go to your left. And so I'm going to shade to, I'm going to shade to your

right hand. I think that's kind of where a defensive back play has really kind of come. And I think that's what, what Booth does a good job of is, is, Hey, I'm going to be kind of staying in front of you. I'm going to make, I'm going to, I'm going to manipulate your movement by where I'm alive. Well, let me ask you about the other side of the ball and Kevin O'Connell's offense, which we assume will be very McVay-ish. Now, he says that it's not going to be entirely 11 personnel because they love C.J. Hamm, which same. But what is it about that offense that just seems to have a voodoo doll over the rest

of the league. I mean, even when they had a tough year with Jared Goff and they had some players injured, they were still making the playoffs with him. And then they get Matt Stafford in there and win the Superbowl. I mean, I know it's two different human beings from Kevin O'Connell and Sean McVay, but I imagine he's going to bring a lot of the same principles over to Minnesota. Yeah, I think the biggest thing for them that is so difficult is just the reduced sets with the quick motions, the pre-snap movement, the eye candy. I mean, you see it a lot in the Shanahan offense at the 49ers of just every, there's a lot of moving parts. They're making you divvy out who's got what receivers receivers working together in tandem,

working together in your little triangles, your little pods, everybody communicating with each other because I've got one guy going here. I've got another guy going there. How are we, how are we giving that out? I think that part. And then obviously the run game on top of that, being able to run out of all of these different you know I think the one of the under appreciated parts of the McVay offense is how much Cooper Cup is asked to block and just how expensive that is for a lot of guys to sit there and say we're not going to use a receiver to block but then you get a workman guy like that and he's willing to do it. And then how, how that can manipulate the run game to where, Hey, we don't necessarily have to occupy an offensive lineman here. We can just, we can buy alignment. I think that too, a lot of the dirty,

I call them dirty bunch and dirty stack sets where they're not, you know, if I say two receivers stacked on top of each other, you're thinking real tight together, one's on top, one's right behind them. They're really close together. Well, what do you do when you get guys that are kind of, they may not necessarily look like a traditional stack or they look like a bunch, but how are we going to play those dirty bunches and those dirty stacks? And I think they do a great job of that. And then creating different looks off of motion and shifts

just to get you into a different feel. Or can we communicate at an elite level like they're able to kind of run these plays at an elite level? Dirty stacks, football. You know, Robert Woods also, when he was healthy, played a huge role in that blocking situation for the Rams. So I think it's something that Adam Thielen

and Justin Jefferson are pretty good at that they'll be able to carry over. It seems like just all of the movement and allowing Cooper Cup to play out of the slot so often. I mean, it looks like it's just a hack for football. If you put great receivers, and I feel like Bill Walsh was doing this back in the day with Jerry Rice. When you put great receivers out of the slot, there's just no great answer to how to handle that. Right. And then now I'm taking, am I taking my slot corner away or am I taking my big nickel away? Or are we using a linebacker on a guy and then half into, okay, if I, if I do that, if he's not a coverage guy, now I've got to put a safety over there. Now I've taken somebody out of the box for the run fit. I think that to me is the biggest part of it. I think the Rams at the beginning

of the year, they got a little bit too, they got a little bit too cute, try to pass the ball too much, forgot how to run the ball. And then eventually I think obviously we saw, okay, wait, we let's go back to what we are. We run the ball, which is counterintuitive because, you know, a lot of the analytics and things are telling you, Hey, you don't want to run the ball. You want to pass the ball, but there is something about getting five, six yard chunks when you need it to keep every, you know, to kind of get those people to creep up or to get those people to move and be worried about the box just enough to where you can manipulate or get a step on a safety because he's worried, okay, do I have to fit the run right here? Yeah. Something that my friend Sage Rosenfels brings up with running the football is,

A, it takes a mental load off of the quarterback to just turn around and hand off, but also offensive linemen love it. And so it's just less stressful. So if you're asking your quarterback to pass and pass and pass and pass, it's just a more stressful situation for a lot of people, including the quarterback, if it's not Patrick Mahomes. Um, so that's, yeah, that, that, that part of it, I don't think is going anywhere for the Vikings with Delvin cook still in the backfield. Um, okay. So one more thing, just to let me flip back to the secondary, cause I wanted to ask you

the big picture question. Do you think there'll be good? I mean, because the last couple of years, Mike Zimmer knows what he's doing, but it requires really good players. And that was quite clear that it was a lot of stuff that maybe he didn't adjust enough for the young players that he had.

But this, I think, is going to still require an adjustment period, even if in the long term, it can be better with these two players if they fit. Yeah, I really think it's going to come down to really how well the edges can play. Can they create chaos up front, which alleviates a lot of the pressure? Do you have a good slot corner? I mean, I think one of the biggest off season pickups that a lot of, you know, the, the charters did a lot to get better on defense, but bringing in Bryce Callahan who played for the Broncos,

who is basically all he does is play slot, which is kind of like what Chris Harris jr. Did. And then he just kind of aged out. That's kind of the key cog in this defense is that slot corner. Can he play at an elite level? Because then it frees up your safeties now to do other things, to shade other areas if they're in the box, if we've got to defend somebody else.

And then, obviously, you're going to be playing with a lot more DBs, which means you're going to have to make sure that that room is, is solid. You know, can it can, you know, my, my biggest thing with them is, is, you know, is Patrick Peterson going to be able to, can he, can he still play at only level so that you're not necessarily leaning on Booth to say, okay, we, we, we lost one guy. Let's plug somebody else back in. You,

now you've got to kind of be this all pro guy for us. And so to me, it's just kind of where at one, where are you going to play booth? And then can you get that camaraderie enough? Because you're going to have the communication piece with the safeties is going to be key. And that's going to take time. But the Fangio system has always worked

everywhere it's been. And so to me, I think there's no reason why it can't work. They have the pieces to run it. It's just what is it going to look like? Are you going to see more 5-1 like Fangio used at the Bears? Like we see with the with the Rams and the Chargers, you know, the Chargers really were a lot of four down last year because of personnel. But you can see that they're going more 5-1. Is that kind of going to be what it looks like?

Or are they going to be like they were, you know, like Dante was at the Broncos and more of a nickel, you know, kind of that 4-2-5 look? Yeah, and I think that's what they will do because of Eric Hendricks. They signed Jordan Hicks, drafted Brian Asamoah. So it kind of feels that way. But the thing that you brought up that would be a big concern for me is that nickel spot that Harrison Smith said that the nickel corner is the most underappreciated position for how challenging, how complex and asking you to run fit, to play one-on-one, to play zone. There's like so many things asked to do. They signed Shandon Sullivan to a very cheap contract. That's one i think to watch because they really got burnt last year on the mckenzie alexander deal so okay last thing for you

you're a broncos fan russell wilson huh yeah look at you i after all these years of brock osweilering and uh tim tebowing and everything else look Look at that. I know. Yeah. It's going to be interesting. I think a lot of the issues that people see with him playing, I think a lot of it had, you know, is Russell Wilson, you know, is he done? I think a lot of the issues with him is just the O-line for the – I love, in fact, my favorite games to watch are when the Rams play the Seattle. Cause it's just like, it's watching Aaron Donald just throw around grown human beings. And then,

you know, it's kind of just, whoa. Okay. But I think him having at least a decent line, one of the, at least one of the better lines in the division, being able to throw to some, some receivers that can, you some receivers that are established. They're not going to be DK Metcalf, but he's going to have some guys that can run and can play. And so to me, it's just I want to see him be able to be behind the line and then actually be able to run an offense that's going to be conducive to his style of play, which I think that's what's going to kind of be

what we're looking at with the Broncos. It's amazing how quickly teams that are once thought of as being progressive sort of fall behind. And that was Seattle to me, where it just seemed like they just went a little too antiquated drafted linebackers and running backs in the first round. And just like, this is not helping Russell Wilson and that team that he's going to inherit. I mean, Teddy Bridgewater was 500 when he started last year, Russell Wilson, round and just like this is not helping russell wilson and that team that he's gonna inherit i mean teddy bridgewater was 500 when he started last year russell wilson quite a bit better so i'm excited for you to watch good quarterback play no paxton lynch uh for no drew lock i mean what a nightmare so uh well good for you uh cody on twitter you you are at the coach on okay. The underscore coach underscore

a, which you had to have made a long time ago. Cause no one uses underscores anymore. Match quarters is the website and the newsletter. If you are especially a football junkie, a football coach you are absolutely going to want to read your work. And I learn a ton from your newsletters that you send out for, I think I get like 80% of, I understand. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know what this means, but for the most part, it is a great resource. So I really appreciate your time. Awesome breakdown. I think the most football-y thing that we'll do probably all year. So thanks a lot, man. All right. Appreciate it.