Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Former Bills director of player personnel Jim Monos explains what it's like in an NFL front office

Episode Date: January 22, 2022

Matthew Coller is joined by former Buffalo Bills player personnel director to talk about what that job entails in the NFL and the importance of the Minnesota Vikings getting their new GM and head coach on the same page. He talks about an ideal GM and explains his straight forward process for scouting quarterbacks. Jim was also a scout for the Saints and Eagles. He explains where he'd start with rebuilding the roster and what to do with Kirk Cousins. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar here and joining me a very special guest who is going to offer some rare insight on what it is like to be in an NFL front office. Jim Monis, former Buffalo Bills director of player personnel. Also former director of player personnel for the San Diego fleet of the AAF. Jim, I could ask you questions about the AAF and XFL all day. But you are here to offer us some insight on even what a director of player personnel does. So what's up, man? Man, it's good to hear from you again. You know, I just got, I just got hired.

I'm going to be the director of football operations in the new XFL. So I did just get a new job in the XFL. So I'm looking forward to seeing if we can get that back off the ground and running again. Obviously, we're in the planning stages right now, so it's early. Yeah, anyway, those leagues have a place, I think, and hopefully we do it right. Fans enjoy it.

Well, that is amazing. Congratulations. And the people who listen to the show understand how much I watched the XFL and enjoyed the XFL. And I've had a few guests on who have talked about that experience. It was going in the right direction, man. I mean, before COVID and it was getting to be really fun. And I think, you know, you've seen guys like PJ Walker goes and is an NFL backup and gets some games. And Pep Hamilton, his name name he's got back the NFL

and he's been around so like a lot of the people who are in the XFL have gone on to be in the NFL again for like the third or fourth time with leagues like this but I thought if not for COVID I think the XFL would have continued to succeed I think you're right and I think the important thing you know for everybody to remember is yes we'd love to give guys another opportunity and guys certainly improve but it's not always about just guys getting back to the NFL

I mean it can be a way for guys to play for four or five more years and make a living playing a sport they're good at and they love and just maybe not necessarily good enough to play in the NFL there's plenty of players. So, yeah, I think it could be a good product. Yeah, no, for sure.

And just with what I like to see too is that there's so few opportunities in the NFL for quarterbacks who need more development, and this gives them an opportunity to do that. And maybe we'll see another Tommy Maddox atx at some point uh from the original xfl but i'm happy for you man and i'm glad that it's coming back and uh this is now i haven't paid close attention but the rock right is now your boss he's part of it redbird capital the rock um his uh business partner and ex-wife um she is his business partner so they're a part of it and redbird capital so they are kind of you know putting all their investment into it so like i said we're in the beginning stages and it's a lot for sure but um definitely everybody has great positive you know

energy and it feels good to be a part of something like this yeah well uh i'm excited about it and i think that's a thing that you need to tell people at parties is that you work for the rock um so i know everybody always brings him love right away he's on he's on the manning cast the other night he was doing a good job so that's pretty cool so let's talk about what it is to be a director of player personnel because as the vikings go through their uh gm interviews that's the role that a director of player personnel because as the Vikings go through their GM interviews that's the role that a lot of the people have that they are bringing in for interviews and you held down that role from I believe 2013 to 2017 with the Bills and so maybe you could just take me through like what what that is because I'll tell you the truth, as long as I've been covering the NFL, I've never asked anyone exactly what that job does.

It's funny. So when you're the director of personnel, you are basically the GM's, you are the GM's right-hand man. I mean, the GM trusts you. You know, he's your guy. He needs you to basically, you're setting the board for free agency

and for the draft. And when I say set the board, that means you to basically, you're setting the board for free agency and for the draft. And when I say set the board, that means you are basically working with the pro scouting department and the college scouting department. And you really have to find a way to manage your time. Obviously, it picks up, you know, this time of year, and you've got to prioritize. But basically, what you're trying to do is make life a little bit easier for the GM, the final decision maker, to hey, here's who we're honing in on, here's

who we all like, as the pro scout, as the director of personnel, hey, we all like these guys, we're a little bit lukewarm on these guys, you know, and you just try to, for the GM, so he's not wasting time looking at every single player.

That's our job, is to look at every single player. And I say our job as a record person, not a scout. At the end of the day, we're all scouts. That's how we always looked at it. So you just get different titles. This time of year is when it just ramps up. So explain to me when the Wilfs talk about the Vikings ownership, when they talk about, you know, wanting to have a collaborative effort.

I mean, I took it as them kind of making a statement a little bit about how things had been run for the Vikings with their decision making. But what does that look like within a front office? We talk about a collaborative effort because you just have so many people who are all working on this. Like you said, like you have the pro scouts, you have the college scouts, you have other people who are a part of this, the analytics department and that kind of thing. And then the general manager is the one who has all the decisions rest on his resume. Right. So you worked with Doug Whaley and everything that Doug Whaley did. Like that's what everyone on the outside is going to talk about is what he did, what he's done, how he's built. You know, that one guy, everybody knows his name. But if it you know, if it's a if it's working correctly as a collaborative effort within a front office, like what does that look like?

Well, I think it starts and it's funny, it starts at the top of the ownership. And I've said this, I talk about it a lot on our podcast with Tyler Dunn on Go Long. I always talk about the structure needs to be right. It starts with owners that are willing to spend money, but they need to back off on decisions and let the people they hire make decisions. And then the next step, and for a lot of these teams right now that are going through it, and the Vikings are one of the teams going through it, you need to identify who you want to have control.

Is it the head coach? Is he a final say? Or does the GM have final say? You decide who you want to have final say. In my opinion, that's your first hire. So if you wanted to be the head coach to have all the power, hire him first and let him hire the general manager because those two

need to have a relationship and need to be synced up. If the head coach and GM aren't synced up, it's going to be, it's a struggle. And I've been on teams when it's been like that and it's not easy. In Buffalo, that was a hard part for us where, you know, we tried to,

you know, the coaches tried to get along with us and we tried to get along with the coaches. But at the end of the day, you know, we hired Sean McDermott. But at the end of the day, Sean McDermott and Doug Whaley didn't have a previous relationship. And Sean didn't feel comfortable with it. He had total control. And he brought in, you know, he got rid of us and brought in Brandon Bean. And I've said this before. It's the right decision by McTarney.

Even though we got him the interview and got him the job, he made a tough decision and it was the right decision. He brought in a GM he was familiar with and comfortable with. And the results are pretty impressive. So for the Vikings, I pay attention to that big time. Whoever they hire first, I want to see if it's a GM first, I want to see if he hires that coach. If they don't have a previous relationship,

I just don't know how that works. Yeah, I mean, they need to be on the same page. And for a long time, Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman were. And then I think where it started to break up was the Kirk Cousins decision where clearly Rick Spielman wanted that done. And I think that ownership wanted that done. And that's the thing I've always been a little bit unclear on because every ownership says, Oh, we're going to let the football people do the football

things. Yes. You're laughing because that's not always true. You know, so. And they have every, at the end of the day and they have every and that's at the end of the day they have every right to do whatever they want as you know right and that's hard that's where it can get tricky right and so i i've never fully understood like the background of the kirk thing and whether that was the wolf saying no we want the expensive quarterback or if it was spielman or if zimmer was reluctantly

agreeing to it and then but but the thing is that zimmer seemed to resent the decision the entire time that kirk cousins has been here and of course by the end i don't blame him because the results weren't what they wanted them to be but you know at the same time like that was a key decision that was made where they weren't on the same page seemingly from the very start. And it started to create like that's where the finger pointing comes from when it doesn't work out. That's where the resentment comes from. And Mike Zimmer had said at the combine, hey, if we sign this expensive quarterback, we're not going to be able to keep my defense. And then it all came to fruition.

And that's where it felt like there was a lot of headbutting. Oh, no question. And if that is true, then that is the obvious reason why this thing fell apart. And it just can't happen that way. I'm telling you, man, if a coach doesn't want a player and you force that player on the coach, it's hard. It's really hard. It's not – it really – okay, so back to the collaborative effort. Yes, that effort to me means the decision-makers at the top

at least need to be instinctive. The GM and head coach should not be arguing over, especially the quarterback. If you're arguing over a fourth-round pick, hey, that happens. Hey, I'll eat that one. But the GM would say, hey, coach, I know you don't like them, but hey, scouts like them, we like them, but then take a guy in the fourth round, sorry. And we did that in Buffalo, and I've got to tell you,

it didn't work either. There were guys we took in Buffalo that Doug Marone didn't want, and he was correct on some of those guys. I give Doug Marone credit. He tried to work with them. But there were some offensive linemen we drafted that he was not fans of that our scouts were and we were, and they didn't pan out.

But I will give Marone credit. Try. We did try to make it work for those guys. You know, I never really quite understand why coaches are, and I'm sure it would be impossible to keep them away from this, so maybe that's part of it, but why coaches are involved in that process to begin with?

Because it just seems like it isn't their job to scout people, and yet we've heard from the Vikings, oh yeah, let this this position coach draft that guy like wait what i mean like what but why did you do that since you have an entire maybe you can explain it to me but it always seemed to be counterintuitive to have an entire college scouting general manager director of player personnel all these people watching it and then the coach comes in and says no i want that guy like it just seems like why does it work that way when they're not watching the tape and they're not going out on the road and they're not doing those things until really

the very end when they come in and do these you know studies on these players that they might pick it's it really happens and it really happens with the teams that have new staffs, and this is where it gets tricky. You're hitting on some major, major good points on why front offices and drafts don't work because, to your point, every scout will always tell you, if you just let the coaches out of it, this would be so much easier. The more people you involve, I'm telling you, the headache just gets bigger and bigger.

But what happens is you get a new coaching staff, which the Vikings are about to get. New staff, new scheme. Scouts are the same. Hey, so now what you do as a director of college scouting, director of personnel, you're saying, here's our draft board right now. But to these guys, you have to have the coaches look at these players because this new system, whether it's offense or defense,

they fit your style. Which, that's a whole other topic I don't want to get into because I'm a big believer in, if you can play, you can play. It doesn't matter the system. 3-4 and 4-3 is what you're always going to hear is the biggest headache

for scouts. And it's true, obviously certain guys fit a 3-4 more than they do a 4-3 is what you're always going to hear is the biggest headache for scouts. And it's true. Obviously, certain guys fit a 3-4 more than they do a 4-3. That is true. But at the end of the day, any coach that I've been around, any great coach I've been around, they use those players for their talents. Whatever they do well, that's what a coach will use that guy. That's how they'll use him.

And those are the coaches I love being around. Rex Ryan loved the draft. He was really into it. He was a good evaluator. He was really into it. And Rex in big things always, I'll use him. Whatever he does well, let's use him. Use him that way.

And that's the guys you like working with. It's the guys that start eliminating players. Oh, he doesn't fit what we do. He's a good player. with and that's the guys you like working with the guys that start eliminating players oh he doesn't fit what we do he's a good player it's like that's when you put your head back as a scout you're like oh you're making it so hard yeah it's just i'm telling you every team right now it's this time of year it's fun you know they're getting ready all the senior bowl senior you know have you been down to your bowl i have never been to the senior bowl all go to the Senior Bowl. Have you been down to the Senior Bowl? I have never been to the Senior Bowl. I go to the Combine every year, but I haven't been to Mobile.

Well, you're not missing anything. That's all I'm going to say. You just see all the coaches. It's a strange setup. But anyway, everybody's just sitting there looking at the same players. Every team will have a different opinion on every player. It's really fascinating. Well, the story that I loved the most from the Senior Bowl

was Dave Gettleman watching Daniel Jones throw like three passes and deciding he was going to be the quarterback. And again, you talk about the collaborative effort and that's how it happens. I mean, there's so many of these things that are funny. Like even the stories from Washington of Daniel Snyder just walking down from the, you know, whatever the top and saying, no, we're drafting this guy in the first round. And they're like, OK, well, we just did all this work on our first round pick and the owner just picked whoever he saw the highlight reel of on TV. I mean, some of these things are are just crazy that NFL organizations operate this way when there's a structure in place to try and get these things right.

I'm fortunate enough that the two coaches I've been around, I've been around, the two coaches I've been around, that there's a reason they win all the time. Andy Reid and Sean Payton. The way they operate is incredible. And I'm talking about personnel-wise. They rely on their scouts. They trust

their scouts. They do. They want their coaches involved. And I think that's important. I think the coaches do have to be involved. But you have to determine who had the coach, the head coach, when he has the vision,

especially if he's in control of Sean Payton, Andy Reid. They were the decision-makers at the end of the day for those distinct chiefs now, Eagles and Iowa. But they are the decision-makers. That doesn't mean that they're going to just, you know, if they don't like a guy, I mean, if they like a guy and nobody else does, go back off them. You know, go listen. But just look at those teams, how they draft.

Look at the Saints and look at the Chiefs. They draft really well. And there's a reason they have the same scouting staff, the same coaching staff, the same impact. They know each other. Like when I worked for the Saints for eight years, I knew, I mean, I could go to a school, watch a guy, and be like,

I know our coach is like this. There is something to be said for the guys that have been there for a while. I just think there's a direct correlation to these teams that draft well, and they've been together for a while. The head coaches have a clear vision. Mike Tomlin, same way

in Pittsburgh. They do a nice job drafting for what they like or what they need. The funny thing is a lot of these teams have tried, like I'm thinking about this now, obviously the Chiefs, they hit on the home. We made that trade with them, but

that changed everything too. The Steelers in sync, you see what happens to them as their quarterbacks got old, Breeze and Roethlisberger. They didn't have a replacement on hand. And the Saints got desperate, and then they said, hey, we'll give Winston a shot. And, you know, they're messing around with all these guys.

The Saints don't have a quarterback, and the Steelers don't have a quarterback on them right now. And these are the teams that do it better than any of us. So that's how hard it is to find a quarterback, going to that spot. But the teams that stay together and have a clear decision maker, it's just a direct correlation right there in front of you. Teams that are always changing coaches and changing GMs, it's hard to get cards.

Right. And you said it, though, that when you have Roethlisberger and Breeze, everything becomes a lot easier, right? Wow.

You get high things. You know? 8-8. 8-8. Like, when you start going into that 8-8, 7-9,

9-7 range, you can, like the Eagles and Steelers this year, you know, they get into the playoffs because an extra team gets in. But were they a playoff team? You know, would you look at them and say, oh, things aren't good for those teams. They have some major decisions to make right now.

And they just made the playoffs. So, you know, it's funny. You can spin things a certain way, but you have to really be honest with yourself, especially as a director of personnel after a season, too. Another thing a director of personnel wants to do is be honest with everybody. Say, hey, we're not good enough in each position.

You know, and we used to have a divisional draft, you know, divisional draft board, too. Like, every team steps, like, who has the best safety in the division? You know, rank the safe. Who ranks the best corner. See where your team lines up in your division to really get a feel. Goals always come in your division

first. Take care of your division. So it really the teams that stay together and have a straight communication and know who's in power, it was a team-factor draft, well, consistent. Folks, we've got an even better offer to tell you about from SodaStick.

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And also, Randy Moss is the Goat, the Purple People Eaters, Bud Grant designs for the old-school fan. Plus, the hockey and basketball teams are both actually exciting this year and soda stick has you covered there as well go to soda stick that.com that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k.com and use the code purple insider for 15 off it's it's always a funny thing from a media perspective jim because um you have i would say certain certain people who want to how can i like how can i put this correctly like agree with everything the team does all the time and yeah and it's funny you know who will be like what

why are you so critical of this move or that move and i always want to say like i guarantee you inside that building half the people are being critical of this move too right like when you know what i mean and so maybe you can speak to that of just you know being self-critical and what those conversations are like as you look at your roster and you look at your past moves that either worked or didn't work because i think that's a very interesting process because i think that the worst thing you could probably have is the arrogance to think that you've got it right all the time uh when it comes to all the draft picks and everything else well said that sean page used to say he he was never afraid to cut a draft pick, I'm talking like preseason. Like, guys, it's not working.

He might have been a third round pick, fourth round pick. Hey, it's not going to work. His big thing is if you recognize it, if you give him some opportunities and don't feel comfortable working with him, move on. That always stuck with me

because as a scout, we're going to sit there until the end and you want to be right. I'm telling you, I saw the guys we drafted and I thought, a good example is Sammy Lockett where I never heard

anybody say that he wasn't going to be a great player. I'm talking scouts, coaches, everybody likes Sammy. Now, the argument is, shouldn't we have traded up for Sammy? Right. No. Obviously, that was proven a horrible mistake by us. But we were kind of, you know, we felt like that guy could help us.

We had EJ Manuel, so we wanted to take a shot and get EJ a quarterback. I mean, you know, number one type wide out. But then, I'm telling you, soon all of a sudden, Sammy's you, soon all of a sudden, Sammy's not dominating. All of a sudden, well, I shouldn't have traded up for that guy.

Really? That would have been nice. Somebody would have talked about that before we decided to. I mean, there's nobody, you know what I'm saying? It's funny how it comes out afterward. It's just funny how it comes out afterward sometimes. But to your point yes people will look at you in the building and half the people like nope didn't want that guy didn't

want him and that's when it there's always a rule once we draft a guy who's on our team and let's move on that that's kind of what you always will tell people but yeah you just don't know people saw coaches talk to each other. They talked to other teams. Did you guys like that guy? No, I didn't either. No, I didn't. But that's the thing. And a scout, nobody asks

us to call plays. We don't get involved in your stuff, so why do coaches get involved in the scouting part? That's where it gets good. And i'm telling you we could go back and forth on this all day cook coaching and front office and scouts i tell you there's some of the classic battles that people don't even know exist oh uh well i think mike zimmer and rick spielman made it clear that they exist over these last couple of years

when uh the head coach is at the podium saying that he does not not particularly want to see kellen mond uh play i think that we're pretty clear that maybe there was some disagreement on the feelings there uh how about this jim since you've worked with different gms tell me your ideal gm uh because one thing that's hard for us is just when they hire someone we're gonna go like okay well that's the it's hard to break down like I don't know the guy right so but but tell me what what your if you were to make a GM in a lab and and to say this is the type of person that's going to have success in the NFL based on your experience? Like what traits would they have? I would love to know, to ask him,

how do you build your perfect team? How do you build your team? And we did this when we interviewed coaches, when we interviewed for head coaches with Sean McCormick, Anthony Lynn, we interviewed for the head job and some other guys. But we would ask them to rank their positions of priority after quarterback, obviously. Show us your top five positions you have to have, you know, as far as, you know, being the right guy for your team.

And each coach had different, like, it was very interesting to do that. And I think that's important to do with a GM, too. So, obviously, everybody's going to say GM. Like, for me, if I ever interview for a GM job, I always tell people my thing would be really simple. And I say, okay, first we need to find the right quarterback obviously. We all know that.

The second thing, I'm building the defense to destroy the other team's quarterback. The only way you're beating Mahomes or Josh Allen or Aaron Rodgers is pass rush. It's not pass coverage. It's pass rush.

That's what beats the other quarterback. I don't care how great a quarterback you are. The great equalizer is pass rush. See, that's interesting. I might look at it as to make Josh Allen, he better have Stephon Diggs and Cole Beasley and Emmanuel Sanders in an offensive line, right that would that'd probably be where I was although from watching the Vikings I might start with offensive line because good god it's just been it's been so bad uh but for for me it would be who who can be my Justin Jefferson who can be my Stefan Diggs who is

going to take my quarterback to the point where he knows where he's going with the football every single play like aaron rogers is such a marvelous player but he's always had that guy that he could trust in a big situation and throw a back shoulder fade into you know into double coverage to davante adams like i watched him do in green bay that's probably where i would start so it's interesting that you would start with the pass rush. I would go rush. Because here's why. I would have been around Donovan at NAC. We never had – I was out of Philly when they brought Terrell Peo in.

The year they made the Super Bowl. But other than that, we didn't have household names at receivers. But we were unstoppable on offense. When I was with New Orleans, we had Marcus Colston, Devery Henderson, Robert Leach, tight end, good running back. We didn't have a true number one wideout. Colston was a really good player, but, I mean, he's not a game-breaker with speed or anything.

You know what I'm saying? So it's like some of these guys, they were all good and fit with the offense. They were all made better because of the quarterback. So I guess that's kind of where I'm coming from, where to me, when you find the right quarterback, he will make it. Now, I'm not saying you don't want to give him good players. Yes. If you can add a dig to a Josh Allen, please, by all means.

But that's a good job I've built. And that's the advantage they had. They could do that because Allen, at at the time was still on the field. Right. Right. I mean, really, the answer is like all. You know, all these things. You're right.

Who wins the Super Bowl? Every team has – yeah. How many good – right. We used to say, come on. Every team – everybody always wants to explain about the offensive line. Right. Everybody says, all right, we need to get a better line. But at the end of the day,

Doug Marone always said, three of these guys have got to be good. Two can be average. Stuff like that on an offensive line. It's tricky to get the quarterback in play with the window officially open. The Buffaloes are going through it right now. Their window is open. Kansas City has done bill that Buffalo is going through right now. Their window is open.

Kansas City has done a great job maxing out their window. It's in the Super Bowl twice now. That's how I look at it. Once you get the quarterback, your window is open. You have about five, six years to get to the Super Bowl. Yeah. So the positional value conversation is so interesting to me because i think of like i i think of like offensive line and cornerbacks safety secondary

in general as being like like weak link so they have to all be good but it's not like you have to have deon sanders or you have to have willie roowe like you know but they just but they can't have gigantic holes and this is where the Vikings I think just completely missed was their two tackles the entire time over the last four years have been good it was Riley Reif and then this year Christian Derusaw played well Brian O'Neill's a fantastic player yet one or two guys the opponent could just attack over and over and over again with that one player we saw this even with the chargers where they're playing their backup right tackle and max crosby is just eating him alive and like i think the same thing goes for corners where if you have

one player that's struggling even if you have the best corner in the world on the other side it's going to hurt you whereas one guy on the defensive line can take over. A Nick Bosa can take over. A Max Crosby can take over a game. You just can't have one corner who takes over a game. Hard. So hard. To your point,

based on what you're saying, and I would agree, you just don't want a player that has a fatal flaw. Right. That somebody that is just going to be exposed by another. And that's really what you're saying because you can scheme you can help a backup right tackle now it takes away from your offense because you're going to have to spend time chipping and you can help but that's the issue when you have to help it takes away from your offense right and there's not a whole lot you can do if the guy can't play at all.

Well, and that's the other thing. If it's state of the law, it's state of the law. And there are guys like that. I mean, you don't find that, you know, you think they're good backups and all of a sudden you put them on the light and it's like light shines on them and all of a sudden it's like, oh, you can't do it. Right.

And we've seen that. We've seen that too many times here, Jim. Well, we've seen it. Just looking at the right tackle, he's looking around. Tristan Wurst. Yes, Tampa. That's what I was going to say.

Tampa, when he went out. I mean, he tried to come back in, and he couldn't even walk. He tried. They still tried. Just to see if he could do anything. It tells you how, you know, it's hard to find depth. Oh, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, on the offensive line, it's like no one ever has depth. I mean, there's always throughout a season for us, it'll be like, well, why don't they play this backup guy? And you're like, look, if he ain't playing, it's a big, it's a big problem. Trust me. No question. No question.

But let me ask you about scouting quarterbacks because it's just the most interesting thing. I mean, other than games, it's the most interesting thing in the sport is trying to figure out which quarterbacks will be good. I have come around to just feeling like you can pick out the guys who are the first round talents but whether they work out i don't know but it was your but it was your job to pick out the first round talents so tell me tell me about that like when you would scout quarterbacks what

that process is like what you were looking for and how you determine whether a guy has the potential because once they get there who knows but but has the potential to be a franchise quarterback? I think a lot of the physical ability on tape kind of always jump out to everybody, right? So once the physical kind of jumps out, like, oof, there's nothing you can't do physically, then it's time to dive into these guys. And you need to know how smart and how tough.

And if they're smart and tough Then you got your guy. I mean you don't need to over analyze these quarterbacks. It's physical ability smart tough and Honestly, I don't know exactly how you would rank those those three things intelligence toughness, physical ability, one can be, if something be leaked, like if the physical ability be leaked, but maybe the toughness,

maybe he's not the, you know, Jared Goff was a guy who never was considered like a, come out, you know, just a tough guy that's going to find a way to win anything. Because in college, I wasn't a big golf fan in college because I didn't think he won big games. I didn't think he really played and won big games with Cal. I didn't see that in him.

His elevated, yeah, he can throw the ball. Yeah, he's accurate. Yeah, he can do all that. But where's the mobility? Where's the special? What are we getting in this number one pick? What's so special about him? Then you look at Mahomes.

When we spent time with him, obviously the physical ability was like, couldn't even believe it. And then you spend time with him, crazy smart, crazy tough. Should have been the first pick of the draft. The whole NFL missed on him. The whole NFL missed on him. Because he was a little wild in college with the way he played. And he still does.

He felt this year a lot. This is the first year where Mahomes kind of looked like he did on Pace at Texas Tech, where he's just running around, making plays that you cringe at, that you get away with sometimes and doesn't get away with. So basically your point, I'm saying find the three things, visible, smart, tough, How you, or if they're all elite, should be your guy.

Still not 100%. No, nothing is ever 100%. Nothing's 100%. I mean, I love Justin Fields. I mean, I thought he was smart, tough, and had all the physical ability. I mean, look at him come game this year.

He looked out of place. And that guy's as talented as I think he could at him come game this year. I mean, it looked like, you know, he looked out of place. And that guy's as talented as I think he could find. I love Justin Fields. I think he's going to be a great player. I really do. But look how hard it is for these rookies. I mean, all these rookies this year. And you never know what system they're going to be put in

and what type of offensive line. They had probably three or four weaknesses on his offensive line. Think about that. I mean, look at what the Jets went through this year on the offensive line. And Wilson was another guy. I mean, is he smart enough? Is he tough enough? Seems to be, but I didn't scout him, so I don't know.

But the physical ability obviously caught everybody's attention, but he was too fast for him this year. Wilson, the game, was too fast for him. He did not see things quick, and he was a mess. I mean, look how well they played when Josh Johnson was in there and Flacco

and Mike White. I mean, those guys came in and had more success than the rookie. So it's, it's interesting to me that you have simplified this because on the interwebs, when you read draft reports, they are 7,000 words long and they talk about,

you know, how the guy, you know, does his fingernails or something like it's all, it's down to these ridiculous details that couldn't possibly make a difference. And so I always think of like the more, the more it sounds like you're making it up, the more it probably is the case that you're making it up

when I'm reading a lot of draft reports because there's so many things. Like here's what I – and you tell me if I'm wrong. But when I read someone says this guy has great processing as a quarterback, I'm like how do you know? And how do you know i mean how like and and how do you know how that's gonna translate because i mean the game is so much different it's so much faster the offenses are so much different and my friend sage rosenfels trains quarterbacks and he's like dude they don't know anything about nfl offenses or defenses it's

crazy so how they're going to process it you don't know until he gets in the building and that's why when we interview you guys you seriously try to install like what we would do with like when we worked out in the homes and travisky and deshaun watson we would spend the night you know we would spend the morning with them and install they would do like an install of what you know whatever our offense was at the time, do that in the morning, and then blah, blah, blah, go through the interview process, teach it a little bit,

and then go out to the field and then see if he can remember everything that they just talked in the classroom. Stuff like that is how in-depth you go to see how quickly, to go to the process in time to see if they can remember taking from the classroom to the field.

So we did that. And really, Trubisky, Watson, and Mahomes are all outstanding with their intelligence. So there's no gap there. So give me a story of a quarterback that you were absolutely right on and you tell everybody about. And give me one that you were absolutely right on and you tell everybody about and give me one that you were absolutely wrong

about and you never speak of. So the wrong one for me, and this goes back, I can claim my youth and experience as a scout, but Byron Lefkowitz when he was at Marshall. I love Byron Lefkowitz. Okay, I was a northeast scout for the Philadelphia Eagles

and they practiced early in the morning, like 6.30 a.m., some crazy time they would practice in the morning at Marshall. And it was a downpour. It was raining, but they still went out. So I'm out there with an umbrella, and he was just whipping the ball around in the rain. And I'm like, oh, this guy. And then, obviously, we all know the story of how he played Hurd.

And like, so smart, so tough, accurate passer. But what I wasn't putting enough on was, and at the time our director of college scouting in Philadelphia, his name is Mark Roth. He's with the NFL Network now. But he's the one that was pointing it out. He's like, Jim, I know you love this guy, but he does have some issues. I'm like, what? I don't see any issues he's like slow feet slow release can't get out of him

that's going to be an issue in the nfl it happens things are happening so fast i'm like no they'll be fine they'll be but you know and he proved to be right i mean that's what we were talking about earlier you have fatal flaws right. Right. And that's the part that can be scary. Because then once you take them, those things aren't getting better. His feet aren't going to get quicker. His release isn't going to change that much. I'll say a guy that I

don't know if I should take, I don't want to take credit for this, but I will say that guys question this player because of his release and I loved everything about him, this Philip Rivers. That was a guy that I had no worries about. Now, was he a great

athlete? No, but he wasn't. He wasn't a stiff... Yes, we all remember him as a pocket passer, and I don't know if I've ever seen anybody throw better under pressure than Phillip Rivers when the pocket was collapsing it never seemed to fade

but everybody was so worried about his lead I can't believe like you know a basketball player you don't worry about how you know they can make it they make the shot that's how they do it and his release was just a little different but it was still pretty quick and crazy accurate.

The arm strength was there. And so that was the guy I felt like when I was a young scout too, that, you know, we debated on, there was a lot of debate on whether he could enough or not. And I felt good. I stood by him and that one worked out pretty well.

But, you know, like, hey, I swung and miss on, you know, we took some chances on players like Cardale Jones. Shoot, we drafted Nate Peterman.

We thought he could be his number two. Yeah, yeah. We thought he could be our number two, and he got thrown in the fire way too fast. But, you know, but those guys are more, those are your mid-round guys. Those guys are trying to hit. Well, sorry, I was going to ask.

I heard with that Cardale Jones pick that you guys were going to take Dak if he was there Is that true? We were We had a compensatory so we couldn't trade up We had Dak in for one of our 30 visits We had Cardell in too

Dak was definitely a guy everybody was excited about at that point especially Dak would be a guy everybody was excited about, at that point especially. But Dak would be a guy I'd put on my, where I had a top of the second round grade on a guy like Dak. You know, I love Dak and he's proving me right. He's what I thought he'd be.

He's a little better even than I probably thought he'd be. Well, he has those things that you're talking about. I mean, the intelligence and the toughness, right? It was his leadership, toughness, intelligence intelligence it just shined and his ability is good but you wouldn't put his ability as you know i wouldn't consider him the elite physical talent you know he's got good side good arm good i mean you know i wouldn't say he's an elite physical talent right with his intelligence with his talk that's so it's so interesting to me

how you know we could try to look at all these different things and we talk about i mean isn't it funny about just all the all the silly things that we come up with for i like this guy because of this i like that and what does it come down to it's like the same things that you would have said about john elway back in the day well he's big and giant and throws it real hard, and he's really tough. There you go. There you go. Give him the football. I'm a big believer.

I always used to tell our scouts, the more you write, the less you know. If you're going to sit there and just keep writing and writing about a guy, what else do you need to tell me? That's how I approached homework back in the day when I was a kid. So true, right? Whenever you were like, I'm not sure, you just felt like the more you write, maybe it'll give me a good grade. That's exactly it.

Let me ask you one more question, Jim. This has been amazing insight. What would you do with Kirk Cousins? So I can't tell you how long and how much I've watched Kirk over these years. And I tell you, these guys are hard now, too. Every week I love watching. Kirk Cousins is one of the strangest quarterbacks and hardest quarterbacks to make decisions on, I think, for personnel and coach. Because he's not elite.

Okay, I think we all would agree. He's not a top 10 quarterback right now. Is he a top 15? He is. I really believe he's a top 15. He's in that 10 to 15 range when you rank quarterback. And that's okay to have. If you're going to have a quarterback that's in that 10 to 15 range,

you better have a great defense. you better have a great defense. You better have a great defense. Because those guys are just 10-15. And that, to me, is where I feel like Minnesota has fallen off, where I don't think their defense isn't what it used to be. They used to always, you know, that's never the same. So, okay, I guess I'm dancing around your question are you asking me would I move

on from the Crib Cousins you know that stuff is what you get that's the first question if you're going to move on from somebody who's just replaced right you know if they don't have them in the building right now what's the plan so that's all the stuff I'd

have to look more into their situation, money wise and draft wise. And I haven't studied these quarterbacks. But that's... If you don't have the guy in the building, that's scary. That's scary because it's hard. Can you just automatically snap your fingers

and think the guy you're drafting is going to be a top 15 quarterback, which Cousins is cooler than he is? That's a hard one. They're in a tough spot. If you can keep him at your price, you know. Right, but you can't. That's the problem, right, is that when you put up the numbers that he's put up,

you can't just tell him, hey, how about 25 mil, right? That seems more reasonable for you because that's not how it works it's you either get paid top money or you get paid rookie contract money and that's what makes it hard and the thing that i would say about who's his replacement is well what difference does it make when you were just going eight and eight nine and when you were just going seven and nine right like fair enough but Fair enough. Like I said, though, can the plan be hey, we keep Kirk.

This is our plan to get the defense right. We're getting these guys back. We've got these guys coming back healthy. We've got this and that. To me, the only way you're getting to the Super Bowl is Kirk Huggins. You better have a great defense. He's not going to be a reason to get there.

And that's the tough part, because building a No. 1 defense is really hard, and there's a lot of moving parts, and then nobody can get hurt. You know what I mean? No, I agree. I just look at the teams right now playing. Look at this first weekend in football. It wasn't a secret. Josh Allen, my home.

We're going to see Aaron Rodgers this week. You know, a great quarterback. He's been right along. Yep, exactly. So, Jim, this was super insightful, man. I can't thank you enough. Former director. I always appreciate it. No, man, your questions are really funny, man.

You're tapping into something. You know, you talk to anybody in personnel and coaching. It's an age-old head-butting debate between coaches and scouts. You're tapping into some right stuff. Well, what's great for us is that it always creates drama. Oh, I can't even tell you. I can't even tell you. I know.

I'm sure we don't even know the half. So, former director of player personnel for the Buffalo Bills. You also were a scout for the Eagles and Saints, as you mentioned. And congratulations on the new XFL gig. I can't wait for it. And I'm very excited to see the relaunch of that and get it back on track. And so I'm excited for you as well. I'm so glad that we could get together and that you're always helpful to me

uh when if i need a you know something a question an article whatever and i'm always helpful to you if your podcast has issues with audio you carried us man we were we were rookies we didn't you carried us you got us established and we're still kicking. We're still going strong. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, that's the go-long podcast with Tyler Dunn is what you do. So people should check that out. Tyler comes on the show. He's a great friend. So I appreciate it, man.

Really great to get together and I hope we can do it again. Hey, Matt, anytime. And really appreciate all your good questions. It's really challenging. I like it.