Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How Caleb Banks and Domonique Orange are game-changers for Vikings defense

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Cody Alexander of MatchQuarters.com does a deep dive on Brian Flores' defense with Caleb Banks and Domonique Orange at defensive tackle. Plus, how do the Vikings fill Harrison Smith's shoes? What does Dallas Turner's role look like and more. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

All right, from Match Quarters, a former football coach, and the premier brain of defense in the National Football League Analysis Universe, Cody Alexander, what is going on, my friend? Welcome back to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me off. Appreciate it. Yeah, man. So I think it actually is going to be a different-looking Minnesota Vikings defense

that we just assume, oh, Brian Flores. So good, we're all set there. And let's talk more about what's going on to the offensive side. but I am very intrigued, actually, by the draft pick of Caleb Banks, how he will be used, and Dominique Orange in the return of the giant noseguard. So why don't we also, we don't know what's going to happen with Harrison Smith. So we'll talk about if he does or does not return what that could look like. But why don't we just begin with this defense is going to have a nose tackle again?

And how much different that could look versus what we saw last year with more, of, you know, penetrating defensive tackles who were veterans that wanted to get after the quarterback in Hargrave and Allen. How do you view the shift of using Dominique Orange as opposed to having those two guys that are more of like three technique types of DTs? Yeah, this is definitely an early down call. And I think the Vikings have really been a five-man front defense now under Flores. That really hasn't changed. They've tried to keep that five-man front, essentially creating man blocking. And I think, you know, you've had situations where they've had a nose and then it was like we go to more of a quick nose. Now they're going back to that. And I really think

at the end of the day, it comes down to, hey, we want to be, if we're going to be an elite defense, and if we're really going to get, get, you know, help the offense as much as possible, we have to be elite on the passing in and we have to be elite on the running end. I feel like the pressure, we've talked about this a lot with his philosophy. He's pretty much. He's pretty much. much gone all in on pass rush over coverage, just because they're not adding, you know, high caliber. They didn't go after Sauce Gardner. They didn't, you know, they're not going and bringing in like a true number one corner. And so what you see, though, is we want to get the pass rush. And I think if you look at everything kind of came to fruition last year, that's probably the most complete defense of what I

think he really thought it was going to, he wanted to do going all the way back to 2023. But if there's one thing that you need, you just need a run plugger on on early downs that can just hold the A gaps, which is just going to free up your linebackers. Yeah, at the end of the year, that was the dream right there. And that was where you said, man, just a little bit of quarterback play. And if they had that defense going into the playoffs, they would have been pretty scary. But how much of a difference is this for everybody around Dominique Orange? And this is hard for him. It's going to be a rookie and they're going to be saying, hey, you're going to have to come in there and play every first down in 10. But, you know, I think that for someone like Eric Wilson, for someone like

Blake Cashman, the safeties who come down into the box, this just opens up everything. And last year we saw someone like Ivan Pace Jr. just kind of not appear anymore. And I felt like that was a product of not having Jonathan Bullard, Harrison Phillips, and those block movers. But can you, can you dive into like what Dominique's job is likely to be in this defense where I think it's really interesting is for a while you and I used to talk about well there's no more true three four anymore it's just nickel nickel nickel but this is much more of a true three four looking defense so what does it require for that guy to be an impact player well typically your center is going to be your worst offensive linemen. And so if you can find a way to at least get half the guard to work

towards that nose, whether it's a bang block or it's, hey, I'm going to clamp down, but then I've got to expand. That's where this five-man front is really going to put a lot of stress on a lot of these teams, is that, hey, if you can't control this 320 pound nose guard, we're going to control both of these A gaps, meaning everything's going to have to go to the perimeter, which we know feeds right into really the strength and the teeth of what this defense is. They want to have quick penetrating three techniques. They want to have these edge guys that are these hybrid guys, which they have now in Turner and Van Ginkle.

Well, in order to do that and to really create these one-on-ones on the perimeter of the box, you have to have a nose that's really going to hold things down. Notice, I haven't even mentioned yet about the linebackers. Well, if we are basically creating one-on-ones or we're creating a one-on-ones, or we're creating a one and a half or a two on one, that's going to open up a lot of run-throughs for this linebacker, especially in base. And then if they go, they, you know, they love the penny package where they're in 5-1.

You do that. One, you can keep Mattelis, who's been your big nickel for a long time free. You can keep cashman free. Those are players that near the box when they're not being, you know, they don't have a guard in their face or a tackle in their face can be really, really dangerous. And so that's really what that mechanism is. They're going to say orange. You have to control both A gaps. You have to force a double team. If you can do that, we are going to win somewhere. And it's going to win quick. Can they expect a rookie to do it right

away? It seems like that job is harder than people think. Well, I think they have to be really careful. They have to make sure that they don't necessarily use him on every down. I think you have to have him packaged in particular, hey, if we're playing, let's say, the Panthers, they run a lot of 12 personnel, but it's really 11. We're getting, you know, we're playing the Eagles, so we know we're getting a lot of 10 looks, even though, whether it is 11 personnel, hey, we can lean into more of a nickel, or we can lean into a lighter guy. We don't necessarily need to play him. So it really isn't necessarily a pitch count, but it's a usage. We need to be really careful with his usage. Now, if he turns into being a Dexter Lawrence, well, then yeah, you play him,

every single down. And then look at that. We got Dexter Lawrence in the third round. We didn't have to trade our top 10 pick for him. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think that would be best case scenario. He comes in and he is, but here's a guy that played in a system where he was essentially on top of the center his entire career. So this is nothing new to him. It's not that. It's going to be, this is an 18 week season. And this is the NFL with grown men versus him just being able to dominate, you know, a 20 year old center. And I know the bar being Dexter Lawrence is. is a preposterously. Oh, yeah, I'm just throwing out just a nose.

Like, that would be per. That's kind of like what you want. But at the end of the day, like, if you can get him to be on there first and second down when you have 12, 13 personnel, which you're going to see in that division, you know, then I feel like this was a successful third round pick. But he does have a little bit of quickness to his feet that when I went back to watch him, I was like, oh, okay. Like, I didn't really know what to expect. I kind of just assumed like, here's my body. but he uses his strength really well, but he also kind of has nimble feet

where he can get off quicker than you would expect, get in the backfield at times, create TFLs, create some pressures. So, yeah, he's not going to get to that level, but maybe on first down, it doesn't feel like you have no one playing there when the other team is passing. And even when the Vikings had,

and I'd like you to speak to this, because we've been discussing it a lot, Jvon, or Javon Hargrave was kind of a little displeased on the internet after being let go by the Vikings about his role and not racking up the type of stats that he probably expected. And Harrison Phillips had talked to me about this couple years ago about how defensive tackles are asked to sometimes just move someone and create lanes for them, which isn't what a guy who's 32 years old and wants seven sacks that year necessarily needs to do. But I think that the guys that they got, and we'll get to banks in just a

second, but I feel like the guys they got, that's going to be something that they could do exceptionally well, especially someone like Dominic Orange, because of the strength and because he does have a little quickness there, that if he has to kind of jump from gap to gap or move a little bit more than you'd expect to try to create lanes, he's going to be able to do that. Yeah. And so I think Harrison Phillips is a great example. Like you got rid of him because you wanted a guy like a hard grave that you felt like, okay,

well, we're going to really maximize the past. ass rush and then he realized, hey, a nose sometimes is really just a nose. It is one of, you know, we talk about thankless jobs on, on teams. The nose guard really is a thankless job. I mean, that is that guy is trying to create a double team. That guy is either trying to get an isolation, you know, very rarely do you see just a nose that it, that is just going to like change a game in terms of, hey, he's also going to get six, seven sacks. And then, you know, oh, by the way, his stuff rates really high as well. So I think with that, You realize last year, I always thought Hargrave was a little bit of an oddity.

As big as he is, he's not the plugger that I think people want him to be. He's a wide nine three technique that is absolutely massive. And that's really what he's been really good at, is being that quick three, have that massive size that it really makes it difficult for guards to handle. And that's where the explosion comes in. He's really better suited for a defense like a Swartz style where, hey, we'll tackle the running back on the way to sack into quarterback. Like, we'll do that.

I think what Flores really understood is, okay, we tried to go all in on pass rush. It affected the run game at a little bit too much where there were times we have to really lean in. Plus two, let's talk. I mean, you want to play complimentary football. If the offense is struggling, you have to be able to kill the run. Being, not being good at the run game is. okay if you're like, what was it, the 21 Eagles where your offense is just, you know,

scoring like 30 points a game. That's great because then people are chasing points. They're going to throw the ball. You're a front runner. It doesn't really matter. When you are in like these one score matchups or you're in situations where, hey, we've got to be able to get the offense out of a four minute situation where they're just constantly running the ball. That's, you know, I think what you need here and this is just a pivot back to, okay, we let Harrison Phillips walk, probably should have kept them. but hey, we're going to get that kind of guy back into the mold. So now we're more of a complete defense.

It does feel like last year there were games where the pass rush was dominating. The coverage was fine. And it was just a lifeline that they tossed teams. Atlanta is a good example. As horrific as the offense was in week two, if they could have slowed down Bijan Robinson at all, that would have been like one of those ugly six to three games that we talk about. But they had the lifeline of being able to run the ball.

Same thing with, you know, Cleveland almost B.john, them just by having Quintzhan Judkins get a few big runs. Pittsburgh did beat them by continuing to handoff and handoff. And toward the end of the year, they figured that out. And they had more of the five-man fronts, but they kind of had to make sure they played that way all the time in order to stop the run on early downs.

And it probably would have become predictable after a while as the season went along. So getting this and changing the dynamic there, I think can be really important. Can I ask you a really silly question that I've been. never thought about first before we get into Caleb Banks. Is there a difference between nose guard and nose tackle? Like I feel like it's used interchangeably. Orange said nose guard the other day. I've always said nose tackle.

It's always listed as NT. Like what's the difference? I really think it's just one of those defensive footballisms of where you have the same thing that but it means the, you know, you have two words, but it means the same thing. I think most people now just call it a nose.

I mean, it just kind of just depends on where you came from. I've never really dove in. to like the history of nose guarders nose tackle. We call them defensive tackles, you know, now. So it's like, I think it's just an extension of that. But no, a nose is a nose and it's the person that lives on top of the center. Okay.

That's what I thought. But, you know, when he said guard, I was, I never thought about that before. Like, is there an actual difference? There probably was somewhere along the line and then that, you know, changed. Caleb Banks's job. So this was something as I was watching him that I thought it would make a lot of sense for this guy. to get some more space to work with.

Like, I don't think that Caleb Banks directly over the center, except for on a third down in 12, you're like, hey, just destroy the small guy. But I don't think that taking on double teams for someone who's 6 foot 6 is a very good idea. And in these three, four defenses, Pittsburgh used to do this sometimes where they would have a guy that'd be like 6.5-290 or something. And he would line up in the 4-Eye, which is, you know, kind of inside the tackle

or even in the five technique right over the tackle. I know that they want to move Caleb Banks a little bit, but I think that that's his best place. Because when he could just snap, dive inside and say, deal with this body, everyone. I think that's when he's kind of at his best. Do you see that sort of role for him? And what would it mean to have a guy who's 6.6.3.30

playing in that traditional 3-4 type of defensive end spot. Folks, if you find yourself hunting search engines for different hairstyles that might cover up your receding hairline, or if you're studying every actor and athlete you see of a certain age to see how they're handling their hair loss, well, maybe it's time to get yourself a solution instead of obsessing over what's happening on your dome. I present you with that solution. It's called Hymns. Hymns brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first.

Hymns offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work including choose oral medication, serums, and sprays. No hidden fees, just personalized care on your schedule. For simple online access to personalize

and affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss, and more, visit Hems.com slash Purple Insider. That is, hymns.com slash Purple Insider for your free online visit today, hymns.com slash Purple Insider. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monocidil

and finesteroide. Featured products include compound drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety effectiveness or quality. Prescription required, see website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Yeah, it makes it really difficult for the guards to handle. And I think this is your hard grave, right? This is, okay, we're going to go out

and we're going to get a guy that we can develop into what we want mentally, physically, execution-wise, we can start from scratch and go. If you really look at it, the reason why this was such a reach for a lot of people was just a production. And I think if you really look at what he was asked to do at Florida was a lot of just kind of knock back the guard, stay on top, playing more of a nose, even though I'm on top of a guard. A lot of, you know, Ron Roberts is a reduction front guy, meaning that it's just kind of a lot

of like you play on top of your offensive linemen. I'm more controlling him. I'm trying to play two gaps or what they call gap and a half. So I have a primary gap. Then I got to do this. But I do agree with you. I think, hey, we see a guy where we really feel like we can, if we just let him just be a quick free, we can either stunt him into, you know, we can stunt him across the guard's face or we can just have him penetrate the B gap. We don't necessarily need him to play gab and have that's what we got orange for to stay on the center now we're going to play five man fronts we're going to get this and with his body size you're right he's as big as every guard that he's going to face if not bigger in some instances depending on the offense so i think when you

have a guy like that i always tell people the freakiest athletes on the field are not your skill position guys it is the interior defensive lineman this kid is six six two hundred and 30, what, almost 230 pounds, and he moves like a five technique, right? Like he moves like a defense event. So I think that when you start seeing that, hey, this is a guy. The plan is there. Hey, we need a Harrison Smith. Okay, let's draft one in the third round, which is typically where those guys are going to live anyway.

Because you're not, he's not a premium pass structure. Okay, let's go get us. We like the idea of Duvonne Hargrave, but we need him to play a little bit more solid against the run. Let's go get a guy who has had experience with playing gap and a half when we need. need him on run downs and then all by the way he has some quick twitch to him that gives us that pass rush ability that maybe we can get the six seven sacks from that three technique can you go into a little more detail about the the usage element of florida because i mean my thing is from a data perspective it is always a red flag if someone didn't produce especially at the defensive tackle

position and i looked through all the defensive tackles that have been drafted in the first round going back 10 years, looked at their PFF grades, look at their pressure rates, and he doesn't stack up to the guys that have been Uber successful. And even the guys who struggled there often became, you know, just sort of run-of-the-mill defensive tackles. But not many of them were 6'4 and 330 pounds and had a 5.040. So what was it? Do you think that the way he was used held back that production?

or is there part of his game that may have held them back as well? Well, I do think that there is a little bit of a you should be better than you are with him. I think that's always kind of surrounded him. I think the whole time, I look, I pay attention to Florida just a little bit because I like Ron Roberts. So, you know, I do watch some of these games, but you hear it all the time with him. It's like, man, if he could just be, you know, a tenth better than what he is, like you could get more production out of him. I do think it's probably a 50-50. And I do think that he is a prime example of if we can get this kid in the program,

we can get him in and we can kind of retool him with football. We don't have to necessarily worry about him trying to freelance, which I think there were times at Florida that he would just freelance, which in a system like that is very gap sound and you need to be in the right place at Florida that can, that can hurt you. I also think, too, sometimes the grading of defensive, you know, interior, defensive linemen. You know, again, we talk about unsung heroes. Like sometimes it doesn't look as good if you're not getting a ton of production. But this was a defense that had the highest simulated

pressure rate in the NFL, I mean, in college football. So his job was not necessarily always, you know, penetrating make the play, right? It was move a guy, like we talked about with Harris Phillips. It's move a guy so that the linebacker can cut the running back off and then we can funnel it to our free players coming from the second level. So a lot of times that's where that system is based. This is not a wide nine system where he's going to line up on a guard and he's going to get after the B gap, right? Like that's just not the system that that is. And I think, too, if you look at the evolution, we're going to get a little bit in the leads here, but if you look at the evolution of college football, right, we've gone through this scenario where we want to be

real lag heavy, heavy handed. We want to, we want to knock back the offensive line, really kill the zone because that's basically all anybody runs at college level. That's, that's the affected the pass rush. And so what's the evolution that we've seen at the college level? I mean, Indiana ran a bunch of five-man fronts this year, right? Stunting, right? Georgia has gone back to a four down playing a lot more, a lot more quarters and movement in the front end. You know, you just kind of go through the list and it's like, oh, here's kind of your evolution. They're going back to kind of a more NFL model. You can't play wide nine into college level because of the the spacing. But this is my, I say all of the

this to kind of paint a picture for you that I do understand why Flores took him here and why they reached to get a guy like this is because he is actually like the prototypical, hey, can we get this three technique? Or even if we put him on top of a guard in our nickel package and he's your nickel nose, that's going to be really, really tough for a center to handle. Right. And let me circle back to the data standpoint. Like there's a part of me that that makes complete sense that you would have someone that big trying to move bodies and opening up lanes for simulated blitzers. I also think that when Quinn and Williams was in college, they just said, murder everyone. And he said, okay. And right? And it's always, it's always, well,

you know, they double teamed him or well, they did this. It's like, well, I don't know, man, because this, this, this, this, this and this guy that succeeded, they just threw those guys apart and ran after the quarterback. So there's part of that. But I also think it's great context and something that he will do at the NFL level where when we're looking at the statistics, and I think this is an excellent point of, well, if he only gets three sacks, like, oh, well, you know, he only got three sacks and, you know, maybe his PFF past grade, hopefully PFF's still around, doing that, given our, or the past rush grades, is only a 65 or whatever.

It might not tell the entire story of his impact, not to mention that I think just on its face, if you're an opposing offense and you're going to play the Minnesota of Vikings, you do have to circle this guy. What are we going to do with him? Because we probably don't have a guard who can just take him out. And also, you know, that him cutting inside, which I think is a huge thing for this defense, having those DTs line up a little wider and then cut inside. It just causes all sorts of problems.

Let's move around the defense a little bit. Losing Jonathan Grenard, what do you think the impact of losing Jonathan Grenard will be on the Vikings defense? Well, I think it was just a natural evolution of what they needed to do. I mean, at some point you had to play DJ Turner. I mean, you did, you did, or Dallas Turner, sorry, you did, you did draft him. And you did draft him in the first round. And he needs to be able to do that.

I think, too, the moves for inside presence is going to help that out a lot. If you, the thing with Grenard is great, but you can't drop him into coverage. You know, he was basically a wide nine defensive end playing in a five down front. So what he kind of was out of, out of place, but you had Van Ginkle who was essentially the ultimate adjuster. Well, what do you do if you do if Van Ginkle gets hurt? Now you're kind of really limited. Now, oh, hey, you know, I got to move, you know, I got to move Turner over there now. Okay, how's that going to work?

So I think now what you have is you have two, you have more of a three, four defense in a traditional sense where you have two edges. They can drop back where we can be a little bit more. multiple along the front and keep people off of always King Van Ginkle or always knowing, hey, Grinard's going to be the guy that ends up rushing here. I think it expands your nickel package now because now all of those simulated pressures that you were running at times, you know, you didn't really want to drop Ginnard into coverage. And look, let's be honest. These guys are not playing actual coverage.

These guys are dropping into spots. But you have guys that have done it, lived it. They grew up in it. I mean, Van Ginkle, we know you could line up. up at will linebacker he'd be perfectly fine right turn or probably athletically you could probably do the same thing and i think even uh jay galde is a great example of a guy like oh here's a hybrid guy that everybody's collecting right that is hey this is a six three six four 240 pound guy oh we can line them up at edge we can put them back so that multiplicity you can see hey they've got three guys

now that they really feel like we can be multiple we have two traditional inside linebackers we feel like we have more of a traditional three-four set inside. So now we don't have to get complex in the way we teach things. We're just changing the leverage points, but we're getting the same production out of it. Yeah, I agree. And with Turner, I think that, you know,

last year when he did more pass rushing than dropping back, he was more effective. But when he was trying to fill in for Andrew Van Ginkle, I'd like you to describe this for me. But I think it's the most unique role, the most unique player maybe in all of the NFL because I don't know that I've ever seen a guy start out at Nickel Corner and then like before the snap make some sort of adjustment to where then he's like playing on the outside edge and maybe he drops back. Maybe he blitzes. Maybe he stunts

and he can do do any one of those things. I do think it's a it's a high bar for Jake Gold Day. Hey, can you just like learn how to do that? Because we need another one of those if you could. But when Dallas Turner was asked to do it, he just fill in for him for a, five weeks or something, it was almost impossible for him. So I feel like now they can, you know, do that sometimes with Turner because watching him in practice, he catches the ball like he's a tight end or something. Like he's got really great, like natural movement skill and, and I don't know what you call that coordination to drop back. But I wouldn't want him doing it as often as Andrew Van Ginkle can do. But that Van Ginkle spot, like how do you look at that in terms of it's

being super vital to this continuing to be elite. Yeah, it's the same kind of position like Buda Baker plays for the Cardinals and that three safety system. Like it's one of these guys and they come around and sometimes they surprise you. Like being equal, I think surprised a lot of people. But if you go back, I mean, even Fangio was like, oh my gosh, this guy's amazing. Right. Like even, you know, old Vic who's been around forever and he's like, dude, this is like

that he's a cheat coat, right? And he's more of a, he's not. your Frankie Louvo that's really cos playing an inside linebacker, but we really want him blitzing. It's not an Ivan Pace who we're blitzing or a Drake Thomas from the Seahawks who basically is a clone of Ivan Pace where we're just blitzing the big gap, right? He does a lot of other things. And I think when you get a player that understands football almost at the coaching level, I mean, how many times have we seen him steal a screen?

How many times have we seen him adjust on a pass rush to where he, understands where it's going. He can play off ball linebacker as good as he can play on the edge. You can put him out in coverage and you don't necessarily have to really worry about it. You know, Turner to me is kind of that prototypical edge. He's really a really good pass rusher and he gives you adequate coverage ability. I really just need you getting into the window. I need you grabbing a running back out of the back field. Oh, the tied in chip block. I just need you to grab him into the flat. Like you just need to stay on top of guys. I don't need you to necessarily understand, oh, hey, I'm getting a running back wheel here. I need to actually

peel and go and like, I need to change my angle. Like that's being ginglingle. And so I think what it does is this is a little bit too of an insurance policy of these guys can practice all the time. We have Galday who, yeah, he's second round drop it, but we do not need you to start day one. You played in a hybrid system in Cincinnati anyway. You moved the round at Cincinnati anyway. So you're already used to this. Now we get you. You don't. We don't have the pressure that you have to play. If he does go down, we still have that ability to rock and roll to move guys around at a reduced level. But again, it goes back to Van Ginkle's a one-on-one guy.

Like if you lose them, yeah, you're not going to be as good. But we don't want to necessarily lose a whole section of our playbook just because we lost one guy. And I think what you're getting now is more diversity just through the fact that you have guys that are more. we're oddly enough more traditional in a sense for the three four yeah i think the gold a pick was entirely of you need a backup for andrew van ginkle and you also need probably the next one because the guy plays with his hair on fire and he does have injuries things like that and his contract is also up after this year so are you extending him or are you you know kind of turning those reins over but gold day could spend an entire year learning more of how to do this

What would you do with Josh Mattelis? Because I think there is an argument to say, if Harrison Smith doesn't come back, let's just live there because he's not currently on the team. If Harrison Smith does not come back, then Josh Mattelis has to play the role of Harrison Smith because there's so much communication that goes on through the safety. That's how they've designed this thing. He's been training in it for several years with Harrison Smith. So you slide him over and you kind of don't have the big nixon.

anymore, but you can mix and match with maybe Jay Ward or somebody like that, trying to play up in that role. But it's impossible to recreate the intellectual element of Harrison Smith. Josh Metallis is as close as it gets. Or do you just say, that's a one of one thing like we're talking about? You're just not going to be able to replace how that worked. So stay in your big nickel type of spot, Josh Mattelis, because in space, I feel like it's a problem.

if he gets manned up and if he is in space with wide receivers. So, and this is why defense is so fascinating, Cody, because you're always just trying to solve these riddles of like, which one of these things is the right. It's not going to be perfect because you can't have Harrison Smith out there. How do we mitigate or play to somebody's strength? So how would you take that problem on? Well, I think you got to hope that Jacoby Thomas really has a good camp in a good,

a good summer because I think you kind of nailed it. You really don't want to go into the season with Byron Murphy as a coverage nickel, because then you're going to end up looking a lot like the Broncos, and you don't want to run that much cover one at match three. You really want to play from a two-high shell. You want to get into your covered twos. You want to get into your hot quarters looks. Like you still want to play from really with a four-deep look.

I mean, that's what they look. Outside of Spagnolo, there's really not been, and we're in the Cardinals and Rawless. There's really not been a team that has played more from a too high shell and actually played a two high shelf coverage, whether it's blitzing or whether it's in base defense. One of the things with Mattelis that scares you is he's really a nickel and you don't want him playing on the hash. I think you can get away with it in base. You can do a lot of two roll stuff, which they have made into their, baked into their system where, hey, we're going to show single high, but we can play some Tampa drops, which is a popular way of getting into kind of these shell. coverages, as the pundits like to say, in base. So you can do things like that, but you really

got to hope a guy like Jacobi Thomas, who by the way is a big player too. So whether it is, hey, he's our down safety when Mattelis is down there. So when we go into these big nickel situations, these subpacked situations, we get him down. I think Mattelis loses his specialness and becomes just an average player when you move him back as a hash safety. When you keep him as kind of that, you know, the terminator near the box that can blitz, he can, you know, defend a tight in, he can take a back out, he can, you know, get you lined up. See, to me, I think he can still get everybody lined up from that nickel position. I don't think that that is something, it's, it's not always ideal, but if he's the one, I mean, he's the one going to the passing strength, he's the one

that's going to set it up. They'll probably do some more three across looks to get him down and doing, you know, I think like, this is just me. If I was him, I'd be watching the, the Cardinals. And what how they move Buda Baker because I think Mattelis is going to end up being something like that where you're basically building a three four defense. So if you want to kind of like let's say, let's look at what this could end up being, I think it looks more like kind of what Carolina, or not the cardinals we're trying to do with Buda Baker as that kind of de facto will linebacker. You're building a three, four post snap. You're keeping him down. But we we have these other because I don't think he's terrible in spurts, but the key factor here is going to be

Jacoby Thomas or, you know, even at Theo Jackson of how quickly we really feel like these guys can be a quote-unquote starter. Right. No, that's, I mean, that's a great point because I think in an ideal world, you have Mattelis closer to the football. And a big thing there with him is that he can really help you in the run game. And then we've been discussing that of like the front is going to matter a lot. But also, if you can have him as a nickel, teams love to try to take advantage of that. And this is the trend around the league that we've been talking about a lot in the offseason is, well, teams are going to these bigger personnel. And you saw a run on blocking tight ends in the draft. And everyone's like, why are they drafting all these blocking tight ends? Are these teams out of

their mind? No, they're going, uh-oh, we better get a Josh Oliver type. We better get a fullback type because that's what everybody's using to take advantage of smaller linebackers, take advantage of nickel defenses. This wise, the football is beautiful, Cody, because it's always changing, always ebbing and flowing.

And the Vikings have a bit of an advantage there where you have a 220 pound nickel corner. That's usually they're like 5'9 and 175. So the fact that, you know, he can provide that run assistance. But if Theo Jackson and either Jacoby Thomas or Jay Ward, if that trio of guys can't handle those roles in the back, I do think that Ward is intriguing.

Jackson really struggled to kind of come downhill and tackle, which was a big issue last year, but he's a playmaker on the football. Thomas is supposed to be very high IQ. He's a mature player. He played a lot of college football, played in a system that he said stole for Brian Flores a lot in Miami with some of the mug looks and things like that.

but you're really rolling the dice with all three guys. And I think that that's one of the biggest things where we always just assume Brian Flores has got it. But if those guys don't step up, then this defense in the secondary, I think we'll have a weakness that they have not had in previous years. No, 100%. I think the loss of Harrison Smith,

it cannot be overstated. And that, yeah, this is a secondary, though, that has been in flux. I feel like we've talked about it every year. It's like we keep waiting for the other shooters to drop. luckily it hasn't been an issue. I mean, they've had one of the most efficient secondaries without really a premium player on that roster, you know, other than like a Harrison Smith,

but again, twilight of his career. So if you go and you look at it and you, if you're one of the other 31 teams, there's not a lot of guys that you're going to be knocking on the door, like, hey, can we get that guy over on our team? But they've been able to survive because of the defensive structure.

So I will still defer to Flores and, the structure, we're sitting here worried about things that probably he, he doesn't necessarily feel is a big a deal just because of the way that the defensive structure is and the uniqueness of it. Cody, a very cool connection that you have to this Vikings defense. You coach Chuck Demings, who immediately became a Vikings fan favorite in his call with us after he got drafted. I don't know if I've ever heard someone speak so smoothly an element.

as Chuck did about getting drafted. He is certainly a bunch of light and energy that comes at you right away. And also a freaky athlete, fifth round draft pick for the Vikings. I would love to hear about your experience of coaching Chuck Demings. Well, I'll just say this. If he didn't go to SFA and a lot of people knocked him because they were like, why is he still at SFA? I mean, but that just shows you who Chuck is, is that he's loyal.

That's where he started. He believed in himself there. I mean, he ended up being an All-American at that level. I beg everybody during the COVID year. And it's so funny, I got so many text messages from coaches that were like, bro, you called it. Like, he's in the league. And I was like, guys, look, I can do.

We were talking before we came on here about drafting vows. I can do that. And I was very good at it. That's how I got my job at Baylor. I found an all, I found an all conference lineback. at the juvenile and brylls ended up giving me a job right so I can do that I just stay I just kind of stay in my scheme lane but with with with Chuck it was like I don't understand what we're missing now he has an interesting background just because he did not play his junior year of football

there were some other there were some things going on he was more of a track guy my buddy cam on who he's still really close with who was my corners coach when I was at mesquite horn talked him to come out and he came kept telling me, dude, we got this kid, wait till you see him. He comes out and it's just like he's an alien. He's just an absolute alien. When you're even, and this was in a, this was in a conference that had division one players all over the place like here in DFW and he definitely stood out. He made a one-handed grab falling backwards where he was completely parallel to the ground and just snatched it out of the air. I mean, the kid is an absolute freak, but as much of a freak as he is, who you saw, that

is who he is. He's a big believer in, you know, manifesting things by talking about it. He's always been that way. He's been one of my favorite football players I've ever coached. I was only, and I only got to coach him for a year. But it was like, man, he's such a special kid, being able to follow him around and being able to see him be successful. And then, of course, he lands into Vikings. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is like, this is so awesome. So no, I, I hope, you know, I hope that he developed for y'all and becomes a star player for you guys because i mean he is such a special kid and i just want the best for him yeah it's a very cool story of him staying at stephen f austin and i i asked him that and he basically just said like they were the ones that believed in me so i wanted to stay there but i

also think we would not be talking about where he was drafted if he had gone literally anywhere else because the nflb just said fcs we don't even want to bother with you in this draft and mac conference and anybody that was not powerful and I think he just got sort of lost in that, you know, that effect of they're just assuming now every good players plays up and we'll go to the next school and chase their bag and everything else. But I think the Vikings actually liked that about him that he wanted to stay there. And then when you look at his combine performance, like, okay. Yes. That checks every single box.

And then he said that he was dealing with knee soreness and he thought he could have approached the record for the high jump. And I was like, okay. You certainly have my attention here, Chuck Dennings. Yeah, no, he was a legitimate Division I track. And like, and I'm talking like he would have gone to like LSU or A&M or, I mean, like triple jumper. I mean, in which if you know anything about track, like triple jump is one of the most technical explosive. It's really, I mean, it's tough on the body. I mean, he was like one of the best triple jumpers in a state that is a track crazy here in Texas.

And especially in South Dallas and East Dallas. us where it's one of the fastest, highest jumping places in the entire world. So, yeah, he is a freak, an absolute freak, but smart kid. He just wanted to get better. I think that's at the end of the day, his work ethic. This is not a prima donna corner. This is not a guy. And I'm telling you, the only reason why he went to SFA is because he did not play his

junior year. And I beg everybody. I mean, I called everybody that I know in power for. And even some smaller colleges was like, you can. have to sign this kid. He's going to play in the league. He's going to play in the league. And, you know, I thought it was interesting for him to. He stayed. He decided to stay because there was opportunities for him to leave, but him staying. But yeah, what a steal in the fifth round. For real. He's an amazing kid. Yeah. I love that for you and I love that for him.

And it is funny that it's here with the Vikings because you have become very popular in Vikings land for when you have a defense this complicated. We need an expert. Last thing for you, Cody, this has just been phenomenal as expected. The Vikings over under on Fandul is eight and a half for this year. Where do you stand on that? Like where do you stand on where this team is at? Is it an over? Is it a team you're very skeptical on?

Like where and then you don't, you know, don't, don't sugarcoat it if you're not high on this thing. But where are you at? I think Kyler will raise the floor of the, of the offense. I don't think that he's going to raise the seat. I mean, I think that I he, you kind of are who you are at this point in your career, but I do think that he's going to give you some things like escapeability on some of these plays. I think that you're also going to get a little bit more of kind of more just accuracy. There are some things when you watch him.

It's a little quirky. He does struggle as short quarterbacks. They struggle to throw over the middle. But I think getting him, I mean, he's in the perfect offense. They're going to boot them out. They're going to move him around. He's going to be, he's not a runner. I think people think he's a runner.

He's really not, even though he scrambles four first downs. He's much like Lamar in the sense that they really want to throw the ball. So I think that, you know, when you look at offensively, I really feel good about the four being raised. So sitting at eight, I mean, I can see this defense kind of giving you at least nine wins. And if not, you should be pushing for 10. And it's really going to come down to how good is the division this year. Like how good are the bears, how good are the packers? how good are the Packers?

What do the lions look like this year? Defensively, my only main concern is you're right. You're putting a lot of eggs in the basket on some rookies inside, which is that you're going to struggle over 18 and the safety. That's why I always push a pause on the Vikings, and I'm more of a prove it guy with the Vikings, just because, look, you know I love Flores, and I watch this defense every week.

It does not matter win or lose. I'm going to watch it because I just, I'm just enamor bite. But I also, the kind of the analyst in me is looking at this roster. And it's like the questions of Mattelis, even if Harrison Smith comes back, you know, I think we talked about this last year. There is a cliff and especially at defense of back. And even if he does come back, we've seen this before.

Guys come back and it's about, you know, Zavian Howard this year, who, by the way, I coached to Baylor. Like he came back and was like, guys, I'm done. Like I can't do it anymore. And he ended up retiring. And that, you know, high quality athlete, guys played in the league for a lot. long time. So you, you just don't know. And so there's too many question marks. I do think the James Pier, we didn't, we didn't talk about him yet, but I think he's a perfect fit. He's a zone

corner. You're playing a lot of zone. He's going to be isolated. He can play into the boundary. I think about it allowed Byron Murphy to kind of play to the field. You don't really want him in the boundary. So I think like I get where everything is, but I still am a little bit hesitant. That's where I think eight or nine wins is probably more doable. Ten, if the offense really gets going. Jefferson stays healthy and then you get a hit on at least one or two of these guys, at least on the front line. That answer was the most Cody Alexander thing of all time because I said, do they get more than eight wins? And you're like, you know, can James Pierre really play to the boundary? Like, it's just perfect. Matchquarters.com. I cannot tell you enough. If you are a football

junkie, if you love defense, if you love to dive into X's and O's, or if you just want to learn more about how defense works. That's the great part about what you do, Cody, is that, yes, there are parts of it that are over everyone's head, including mine. But also, if you just want to learn and find out what's really going on out there, you can also read match quarters as well. So great stuff, dude. Really fun to get to get together with you as always.

I promise we'll do it again soon. 100%. Thanks, man. All right. Football.